Speculative Poets and Poetry

[Dichroic]

What I think we need is a calendar. I've been trying to do, like, actual submissions lately, and it seems like a lot of the outlets have periods when they read and times when they don't. Which absolutely makes sense, But wouldn't it be nice to have a calendar that you could just look at and see Goblin for the next few days now and Mythic Delirium is closed indefinitely, and GUD is closed until May 1 and ...

Also, I think just about all of the outlets need more publicity. There are a few Writer's Market lists here and there on the web and of course there's Writer Market, but wouldn't it be cool to have some link pages focused more at readers?

[Dichroic]

Oh, and Skelly: losing your internet access is probably the *only* way to miss me :) I'm pretty easy to find in a bunch of places online. Glad to see you back.

[Shweta]

oooh.
I've been missing deadlines and going "Oh well next time" a lot. A calendar would be splendid. How would we do it?

[skelly]

I'm not sure.

I think we have more outlets than we have readers.
I do wonder about the poems that fall into the cracks between what those outlets take, though.
See, and I bemoan the lack of cracks. I like cracks. Niches. Odd corners of the universe. Sometimes I think the Internet (why does it have to be capital "I," seriously?) has killed mystery. Of course, I'm on this steampunk jag, so perhaps my thoughts are suspect. I think that is why I am so drawn to speculative poetry. If I may be so bold, this is the edge. Beyond this lies something even Hawking can't define.

Are our speculative poems some odd new form of equations?

I'm starting to creep myself out. Should have gone to sleep hours ago. Also, I'm out of beer, which explains everything.

:)

[Shweta]

Everything is an equation if you look at it a certain way.
The question is always whether that's a useful way...

[skelly]

oooh.
I've been missing deadlines and going "Oh well next time" a lot. A calendar would be splendid. How would we do it?
I don't know but Di is dead on with this one. I bet betwixt the three of us we could put something up somewhere. I'd love to follow up on this because I think it would be very useful. Let's pursue this.

[Shweta]

So Mr Shweta and I picked up Jo Walton's poetry chapbook, Sybils and Spaceships (http://www.nesfa.org/press/Books/Walton-2.html)

I started reading it about half an hour ago when I failed my sleep check again. Wonderful wonderful words and speculations and :heart:
Try this book, it's lovely. And has margin comments like "This is what happens to anthropomorphism when it gets completely out of control".
And stanzas like:

There is blood in the earth, there is blood in the corn,
There is blood on the moon, there is blood in the dawn,
There is blood every time a new person gets born;
no need to fuss about it.
- from Blood Poem IV (http://papersky.livejournal.com/83331.html).

But then I got to the John M Ford Sestina and started crying
I'm going to bed.

[Dichroic]

Quite a lot of Jo Walton's poetry sees the light of day in her blog (http://papersky.livejournal.com/) before it gets published. I think her Farthing set books are some of the most important works of the decade, but what I'm really looking forward to is the next draon book.

Met her once; we offered her a spare bed when she came to Arizona the year World Fantasy Con was there. Dinner conversation was scintillating.

[Dichroic]

I see two major uses for a calendar:
1) I've just written something I'm excited about, and it's suitable for a few different venues - who's open now?
2) I've written something I think is perfect for xxx, but they're not open another few months, and if I'm busy then I'll probably forget - I want a message to pop up to remind me to send the poem in.

[skelly]

I was thinking along the lines of starting some sort of speculative poetry google account thing where everybody could contribute information, specifically to the calendar that google provides. Or something similar.

[Gray Rose]

Wow, people have been talking about me! :eek:

Skelly!!! I missed you!!

Loved Rhea's Lament in the Dwarf Stars.

I think since you saw me last I sold, let's see, two poems - one of which already went up at GF, and the other is the rewritten Juvaini :) I also wrote a humongous poem which is making rounds right now. I'm rather fond of it, the trick is to convince editors to like it too. If only Mythic Delirium was open... *sigh* Maybe I need to poke Mike again :P

Hey then!!
I have something in Star*Line this summer...can't remember what it was though. A good one.
:)

Congrats! I missed the sub window for Star*line this January due to lack of free-floating poems... But something of mine will be coming out sometime this year, maybe we'll even be ToC mates?


Reminds me, I was meaning to subscribe to Star*Line. Not too expensive, even overseas.
And then you will be an SFPA member and will be able to nominate and vote for Rhysling awards! I had a lot of fun with this; definitely worth the money, plus it supports a worthy enterprise.


Do we need more outlets (online, in print, etc.) for spec po, or is everything good as it is?


There are a lot of great outlets out there, though I cannot but mourn the passing of the Journal of Mythic Arts...

I see two major uses for a calendar:
1) I've just written something I'm excited about, and it's suitable for a few different venues - who's open now?
2) I've written something I think is perfect for xxx, but they're not open another few months, and if I'm busy then I'll probably forget - I want a message to pop up to remind me to send the poem in.

A calendar is a good idea... But still... I mean, usually I know where my poems can have a chance, which is problematic when said markets are indefinitely closed to subs. What *can* I do if I have a Mythic Delirium poem and I don't even know whether to sit on it, or what.

[Shweta]

Quite a lot of Jo Walton's poetry sees the light of day in her blog (http://papersky.livejournal.com/) before it gets published.

Yes, but the book has them all together, with comments :)
And is a beautiful object besides.

Met her once; we offered her a spare bed when she came to Arizona the year World Fantasy Con was there. Dinner conversation was scintillating.
You know, "met her once" actually would be accurate for me too, but more accurate would be to say "She's a lovely friend, when I can get past being a squeeing fangirl" :D

Love the dragon book, the Farthing books are too dark for me, and have you heard of Lifelode?

[Izz]

I'm posting a linky here to a poem by Gray Rose that puts the spec back in spectacular (hope you don't mind, Rose, but it's just too awesome not to link to):

Marginalia (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3343167#post3343167)

(and yes, it is the first proper post in the new Interstices SYW - w00t)

[Shweta]

I agree about it being too awesome not to link to :)

[moblues]

Hey then!!

Are all spec poets prone to having their Inet canceled for lack of payment......or is it just me?

I have something in Star*Line this summer...can't remember what it was though. A good one.

Shweta I have missed you. Di too. And Rose. Anybody seen Rose? I mean Dr. Rose? Rose, Ph.D., rather?

Anyway, back. Hugs kisses and mucho virtual white light en todo.

:)


I was waiting for you to return. I see you didn't miss me. ;)




Mike

[skelly]

Mike, you are practically all I thought about while I was away! :D Hello again old friend, and ROSE! Yay. Thanks for the kind words.

I think I'm going to add a "Calendar" page to my speculative poetry blog (linked below). I don't get that much traffic, but maybe if it where up and out there people would find it. If you guys have anything that you think needs to go on it, please PM me here, or email mail at the address in my AW profile.

Great to have the gang back talking again! I'm headed off to read Rose's poem that Isaac linked. Thanks Isaac.

[Dichroic]

....and since it's a specifically speculative viewpoint I want I'll ask the question here. In asking for change (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3346360#post3346360) I don't think I'm achieving my intent. I'd like for the poem to be ambiguous enough to work on two levels: a homeless man just looking for people to be nice to him, who no longer has any hope of his own; and a fae type down on his luck, literally feeding off the dreams and wishes people throw him. I think at this point the poem *could* be taken the latter way, but I don't think the hints are clear enough that it will be. Opinions, ideas, ripe tomatoes?

[Shweta]

Uh.
I think you're doing that, mostly.

But I wonder if you can drop a specific hint about fey? Something in his appearance, something about him not aging, no iron in the coins, or anything like that?

[Dichroic]

Hm. I don't think there's any iron in most modern coinage - anybody know? Maybe he coujld refuse car rides to the shelter.

[Shweta]

Or flinch away from iron, or grey out more because of it, I dunno.

[Gray Rose]

I agree that you should emphasize the speculative element; as is, I would have read it as mainstream if I didn't read your post. Maybe some directness wouldn't be amiss - you can call him fay outright, can you?

[Dichroic]

I want to keep it ambiguous enough that it can be taken either way, but I've added a few lines (L11-L14) in hopes of making the hint a little broader.

[moblues]

Hm. I don't think there's any iron in most modern coinage - anybody know? Maybe he coujld refuse car rides to the shelter.

Just trace elements.

The Treasury and Battelle studies tested homogenous silver alloys ranging in fineness from .200 to .500; nickel-silver (65 percent copper, 18 percent nickel and 17 percent zinc); copper-nickel or cupronickel (75 percent copper, 25 percent nickel); cupronickel clad and nickel-silver clad, on copper; columbium; zirconium; Monel (a trademark of Special Metals Corp. for a series of nickel alloys, primarily composed of up to 67 percent nickel, along with copper, as well as some iron and other trace elements); stainless steels; and a 95 percent nickel, 5 percent silicon alloy containing a magnetic core.



http://www.coinworld.com/news/101308/BW_1013.asp




Mike

[Shweta]

I want to keep it ambiguous enough that it can be taken either way, but I've added a few lines (L11-L14) in hopes of making the hint a little broader.

I don't think you need both the cars and the iron grate. I'd use two different faery telltales rather than repeat one. (I like the iron grate a lot, but would he also shiver at church bells? React to rowan, running water, clothes worn inside out? Never say thank you? Resent offers of new clothes (asthat makes brownies disappear?)

[Dichroic]

Just trace elements.

S'OK - I thought of steam vents. (As Mike probably knows, in parts of Philadelphia there are steam vents covered with big iron gratings. Homeless people often sit on them in winter. They smell of methane (the vented air, not - or not previously - the people) but they're warm.)

[Dichroic]

I don't think you need both the cars and the iron grate. I'd use two different faery telltales rather than repeat one. (I like the iron grate a lot, but would he also shiver at church bells? React to rowan, running water, clothes worn inside out? Never say thank you? Resent offers of new clothes (asthat makes brownies disappear?)

I think you never say thank you *to* Fae - don't remember it the other way around. Church bells, maybe - the others are less likely to walk along city streets.

How about "His eyes are wary, slitted like a cat's" - which could be either a squint or a slit pupil.

[Dichroic]

Speaking of people who never say thank you, oops.

thanks very much to all who have helped with my homeless elf.

[moblues]

S'OK - I thought of steam vents. (As Mike probably knows, in parts of Philadelphia there are steam vents covered with big iron gratings. Homeless people often sit on them in winter. They smell of methane (the vented air, not - or not previously - the people) but they're warm.)

Yep. Ironically I just got off the phone with my wife who's back in Philadelphia. She driving back to the Chicago area tomorrow. Brutal weather on the east coast right now. The homeless are taking advantage of this meager refuge tonight.




Mike

[Shweta]

I think you never say thank you *to* Fae - don't remember it the other way around. Church bells, maybe - the others are less likely to walk along city streets.

How about "His eyes are wary, slitted like a cat's" - which could be either a squint or a slit pupil.

Yeah, though I'd assume they don't either, since they have a debt system going...

I like the eyes line :)

Speaking of people who never say thank you, oops.

thanks very much to all who have helped with my homeless elf.
:ROFL: :Hug2:
You're more than welcome, dear, and now I'm all wondering if I say thank you enough...

[moblues]

About time I submitted something again, huh? In honor of Scott's return from internet exile:


what’s its classification?
unknown, I’m afraid

where was it found?

New Mexico

don’t start with your Roswell stuff

I won’t, it’s nothing like that

can I see it?
come on

Dr. Raskin opened the cell door
in the corner was a small child

are you out of your mind?
it’s just a little kid

is it?

the tiny figure faced them
its eyes were pale and dull

what about its vitals?

from our testing, there is no pulse
no internal organs or fluids
no electrical impulses whatsoever

so you're saying that whatever
it is, it isn’t even alive


yes








Mike

[Gray Rose]

Hmmm... Skelly went to take a look at my poem and never returned....

Come back, Skelly. You don't have to like everything I do! :D

[skelly]

I'm sorry Rose...I just got distracted and completely forgot.

One suggestion, I would bold-face the title(s) and "interlinear such and so's by" because the first couple of times I read it I thought they were part of the main body of the work. Once I realized my error and read it correctly I had a much better understanding of what you were doing with it.

THAT said, the interlinear stuff looks sort of like a stylistic affectation...as when a poet makes the first letter of every line form a word or verse reading vertically. Not that that's what you've done, only that it could be misconstrued as such.

At first I was a little overwhelmed by the format and the overload of information, and I saw that as a flaw. After a few readings (and when I figured out the titles thing) my enjoyment increased dramatically. Very well done and well thought out. Potentially a little "too clever," but more likely a great experiment that seems to be bearing fruit.

[BCarruth]

skelly-
I dig the definition for speculative fiction/prose/poetry above. The ambiguities involved seem endemic to the genre (or "genre" in general).

One angle I view it from is as explorations on questions of human knowledge, what happens when we stretch our hand into the unknown. If we extend the grasp of our understanding and draw it back with fruit in hand, call it sci fi. If the hand gets lopped off, call it horror.

There also seem to be differences in intimacy. I dig the "closeness" of a well turned horror story. Some of my most memorable reader experiences have spun around the sense that there was a big idea, too big for me or the protagonist to bear, that couldn't understand or didn't care about the consequences of its existence.

I'll admit to having played that up for a few "get it out the door" projects. I kicked out a horror screenplay for a small production company started by a friend. He asked how I'd done it so fast. I replied "I remembered my anxiety about going out into a world that seemed too big to have room for someone small as me. Then I gave it bigger teeth, a buffet, and started the coffee."

I'm honestly not sure that I can comment on the broader subject. I feel that I "get" horror, that I can connect to the story and delivery as a reader and a writer. Other speculative genres (scifi, fantasy, etc) feel like watching a master cellist: I'm appreciative, overwhelmed, and feel that I know just enough to appreciate how wonderful they are at their work.

[skelly]

skelly-
I dig the definition for speculative fiction/prose/poetry above. The ambiguities involved seem endemic to the genre (or "genre" in general).

One angle I view it from is as explorations on questions of human knowledge, what happens when we stretch our hand into the unknown. If we extend the grasp of our understanding and draw it back with fruit in hand, call it sci fi. If the hand gets lopped off, call it horror.

There also seem to be differences in intimacy. I dig the "closeness" of a well turned horror story. Some of my most memorable reader experiences have spun around the sense that there was a big idea, too big for me or the protagonist to bear, that couldn't understand or didn't care about the consequences of its existence.

I'll admit to having played that up for a few "get it out the door" projects. I kicked out a horror screenplay for a small production company started by a friend. He asked how I'd done it so fast. I replied "I remembered my anxiety about going out into a world that seemed too big to have room for someone small as me. Then I gave it bigger teeth, a buffet, and started the coffee."

I'm honestly not sure that I can comment on the broader subject. I feel that I "get" horror, that I can connect to the story and delivery as a reader and a writer. Other speculative genres (scifi, fantasy, etc) feel like watching a master cellist: I'm appreciative, overwhelmed, and feel that I know just enough to appreciate how wonderful they are at their work.

I like your take on the definition, bold-faced above. I might add, if you draw it back with sword in hand, you have fantasy.

I haven't tried much horror poetry, to be honest. I posted one here a couple years back, The Body Farmer, but it was way outside my comfort zone. I dabbled in horror poetry back in the late 80's, and submitted to Peggy Nadramia's Grue, as well as Kopaska-Merkel's Dreams and Nightmares. I never hit in those markets, the reason being rather obvious...I suck at horror.

For all of that, I am a fan of the genre, and read a good bit of horror fiction. I love your description of horror fiction as "intimate." Very well said, and I agree completely. In fact, that intimacy is essential to the "horror" that such stories are meant to evoke. Sans that "closeness," as you describe it, all you really have is television news story.

At any rate, I am pleased to meet you and I hope you'll contribute regularly to this thread. Welcome to AW BCarruth :)

[skelly]

About time I submitted something again, huh? In honor of Scott's return from internet exile:


what’s its classification?
unknown, I’m afraid

where was it found?

New Mexico

don’t start with your Roswell stuff

I won’t, it’s nothing like that

can I see it?
come on

Dr. Raskin opened the cell door
in the corner was a small child

are you out of your mind?
it’s just a little kid

is it?

the tiny figure faced them
its eyes were pale and dull

what about its vitals?

from our testing, there is no pulse
no internal organs or fluids
no electrical impulses whatsoever

so you're saying that whatever
it is, it isn’t even alive


yes








Mike

Nice scene that you present here, Mike. The only thing negative that jumps right out at me is the switch back and forth between 1st and 3rd person POV. Other than that, rather a nice, weird vignette.

[moblues]

I don't think that matters in poetry, Scott. The rules of fiction simply don't apply. I'm sure you'll find this in published poetry. Thanks.




Mike

[Dichroic]

Mike: Seems to me that if you're going to write a ballad (a poem that tells a story, in the definition my old professor used) then you have to pay attention to the rules of both, in order not to confuse the reader. And in fact, someone did just ping me on the POV issue in my "asking for change" which doesn't even tell much of a story. And it wasn't even Scott!

BC: Welcome. I'm in exactly the opposite position: don't connect to horror at all, love other forms of specfic. Good for the writers that readers like both of us exist, huh? :)

[moblues]

Upon rereading Classification Unknown, I don't see a shift in POV. I just took you at your word. Am I missing something? Please show me where it is, guys. You know how a writer can reread and reread ad infinitum and still miss an obvious mistake. The whole thing is in third omni.

If you are talking about the Dr. Raskin reference, he is the second voice starting on L2.


I'm sorry, Di, but how is this a ballad?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ballad%20stanza



Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.




Mike

[Izz]

Mike, i think it's the fact the speech and narrative aren't differentiated at all from each other that is causing the issue.

Maybe try removing the two lines of narrative and just leave the dialogue and seeing how that reads?

[moblues]

BTW, can anyone find a qualified site that even discusses POV in poetry? I tried for over two hours before commenting. Trust me, I know how to research. I came up with nothing using multiple wild cards and word combinations. Nothing.

While this is my personal conjecture, I still don't think POV matters in poetry.




Mike

[moblues]

This might work, IZ. Thanks.


what’s its classification?
unknown, I’m afraid

where was it found?

New Mexico

don’t start with your Roswell stuff

I won’t, it’s nothing like that

can I see it?
come on

are you out of your mind?
it’s just a little kid

is it?

the tiny figure faced them
its eyes were pale and dull

what about its vitals?

from our testing, there is no pulse
no internal organs or fluids
no electrical impulses whatsoever

so you're saying that whatever
it is, it isn’t even alive


yes



What do you guys think?




Mike

[skelly]

This might work, IZ. Thanks.


what’s its classification?
unknown, I’m afraid

where was it found?

New Mexico

don’t start with your Roswell stuff

I won’t, it’s nothing like that

can I see it?
come on

are you out of your mind?
it’s just a little kid

is it?

the tiny figure faced them
its eyes were pale and dull

what about its vitals?

from our testing, there is no pulse
no internal organs or fluids
no electrical impulses whatsoever

so you're saying that whatever
it is, it isn’t even alive


yes



What do you guys think?




Mike
Who is saying, or thinking, or relating the bolded lines?

[Dichroic]

I'm sorry, Di, but how is this a ballad?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ballad%20stanza

Mike


Not "ballad stanza", "ballad". As I stated, the definition used by an old professor of mine was "a song or poem which tellls a story". The dictionary definitions tend to lean toward the song end, but you can tell how I defined it because I stated it. Anyway, the ballad part is irrelevant; my point was that if you're both writing a poem and telling a story then you need to worry about both the factors that go into writing a good poem and the ones that go into writing a good story. I wasn't actually addressing the poem so much but more your comment that POV isn't relevant in a poem.

As for the poem itself, you do have a shift in there from what people are thinking to what they're seeing, that's a little tricky because it's not signaled with punctuation. You could be right that it's all omniscient 3rd, but since this poem doesn't use cues like "He thought" as prose would, it's actually not really possible for the reader to tell if it's 1st or 3rd person we're seeing. Which wouldn't actually normally matter, but if the reader has assumed 1st person, then the switch to "the tiny figure faced them" could be a bit jarring - I think that's what Scott and Iz are saying.

[Izz]

Who is saying, or thinking, or relating the bolded lines?
sorry, Mike, i meant to say remove all the lines of narrative. My bad.

[BCarruth]

Good luck with POV conventions in poetry. Every author that comes to mind fiddled, fudged, or intentionally screwed with POV in their verse. Milton dances across author/character voice, Keats directly swaps "the camera", the distinction is just absent in a few bits of Byron... I honestly think that strict POV is overrated. One of the tricks you can pull in written narrative that still hasn't found translation in stage or film is abusing reader trust, and POV is a fun way to do that.

skelly-
I like the bit about the sword. Comparing competences and interests reminds me of a recent conversation with a friend. Her hubby is an accomplished engineer, as are most of their friends, and most of their outings center on the arts: poetry readings, dance performances, music, clear across the board in their circle of friends. Not one among them can scrap together a verse, turn a twirl, or strum a guitar. The obsession among these extremely competent people is fixed on the areas where they are not competent, like the rapture of a person with poor dexterity who can feel that the card appears by real magic.

[moblues]

Who is saying, or thinking, or relating the bolded lines?

I'm stunned. These aren't lines that need to be said, thought, or related. It's simply the creature looking at them from the enclosure.

Maybe I should just stick to minimalism and fiction. :Shrug:I don't get it (my problem.) It reads fine to me.




Mike

[skelly]

About time I submitted something again, huh? In honor of Scott's return from internet exile:


what’s its classification?<----Fred
unknown, I’m afraid<----Ted

where was it found?<-----Fred

New Mexico<-----Ted

don’t start with your Roswell stuff<-----Fred

I won’t, it’s nothing like that<-----Ted

can I see it?<-----Fred
come on<-----Ted

Dr. Raskin opened the cell door<-----?
in the corner was a small child<-----?

are you out of your mind?<----Fred (or maybe Ted)
it’s just a little kid<---Ted (or is it Fred?)

is it?<-----?

the tiny figure faced them<-----?
its eyes were pale and dull<-----?

what about its vitals?<-----?

from our testing, there is no pulse<-----?
no internal organs or fluids<-----?
no electrical impulses whatsoever<-----?

so you're saying that whatever <-----?
it is, it isn’t even alive<-----?


yes<-----?


Mike

First Person
Third Person

I don't know how I can make it any more plain. The poem starts out in first person POV and switches to third person pov...beyond which I haven't the faintest idea who is saying what. There are clearly two speakers, or people being heard by someone or something. There is also clearly a narrator at two points. You are going to have to clean this up for it to make any sense.

Or you can pout about it and ignore me for a year or two. Whichever suits.

[moblues]

POV doesn't matter in poetry. Period.

I'm moving on.




Mike

[moblues]

Or you can pout about it and ignore me for a year or two. Whichever suits.

This was absolutely uncalled for.




Mike

[skelly]

This was absolutely uncalled for.




Mike
I apologize, and I mean it sincerely. It's just that I get SO sick and tired of you getting in a snit every time someone says something that you don't agree with, or care to hear.

Anyway, we'll just have to agree that I disagree with you.

Later.

[moblues]

I don't argue that much, Scott. Maybe it's you. Think about it.




Mike

[skelly]

I don't argue that much, Scott. Maybe it's you. Think about it.




Mike
Okay. Meanwhile, I have contacted you via this thread and rep points, and I will soon respond to your rather nasty PM. Please stop contacting me regarding this issue. It is really beginning to weird me out.

Seriously.

[moblues]

My PM was not nasty. All I asked was What happened to you? How was this nasty? I was concerned.

I will have no further contact with you.

Good luck in all of your future endeavors.




Mike

[Dichroic]

Comparing competences and interests reminds me of a recent conversation with a friend. Her hubby is an accomplished engineer, as are most of their friends, and most of their outings center on the arts: poetry readings, dance performances, music, clear across the board in their circle of friends. Not one among them can scrap together a verse, turn a twirl, or strum a guitar. The obsession among these extremely competent people is fixed on the areas where they are not competent, like the rapture of a person with poor dexterity who can feel that the card appears by real magic.

The two are not mutually exclusive; I'm not the only engineer who hangs out here!!

(I think I can claim my poetry is "competent" without too much hubris :) )

[Gray Rose]

Err... I just got a Rhysling nomination for my poem "Odysseus on the War Train (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200807-train.html)." o.O

[skelly]

For the record....Mike and I have been discussing things in PM. We mutually agree that he is a bit too sensitive and I am, a WHOLE LOT too rude.

Anyway, it's a done thing. Moving right along...

:)

[Gray Rose]

For the record....Mike and I have been discussing things in PM. We mutually agree that he is a bit too sensitive and I am, a WHOLE LOT too rude.

Anyway, it's a done thing. Moving right along...

:)

I'm happy you guys are sorting it out :)

[moblues]

I'm happy you guys are sorting it out :)

Me too. Didn't like being in that place. We're good.

Now I need to write something else to annoy Scott. ;)





Mike

[moblues]

One annoyance coming up:


it’s your world
your programs

you tether me

in a fake
nothingness

I only exist


for you










Mike

[moblues]

Congrats, Gray Rose. Sorry. Should have said so earlier.




Mike

[Magdalen]

Congrats Rose, and nice poem!!

[Gray Rose]

Thanks moblues and magdalen!

[skelly]

Err... I just got a Rhysling nomination for my poem "Odysseus on the War Train (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200807-train.html)." o.O
Yay! Dang, I totally missed that. Congrats to you Rose. :)

[Sheryl Nantus]

Err... I just got a Rhysling nomination for my poem "Odysseus on the War Train (http://www.abyssandapex.com/200807-train.html)." o.O

:partyguy::partyguy::partyguy:

yay!!!

I'm still trying to break into Apex...

;)

[Dichroic]

I'm still pretty much bowled over by Rose's Rhysling nomination. But I am squee-ing quietly to myself a little today: I posted my poem Alice & Wendy over on LJ, on the theory that it's maybe a little too strange and narrative to submit anywhere, and also because a lot of the ideas in it came from friends on LJ and posting there seemed like the right thing.

-- I think having your fantasy poem called "totally splendid (http://dichroic.livejournal.com/166182.html)" by Pamela Dean counts as good reason for squeeage. There are other nice comments there by people whose opinions I respect a lot too - I do find speculative poetry gets a much better reception in an SF crowd than here (though not specific crit, which is why I keep posting 'em here.)

Also, I've got a new one up with a definitely mythical flavor: Clotho Visits the Local Yarn Store (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3398185#post3398185). (This got rejected from one venue with a nice note saying "lovely idea, needs more tightening". Not sure, after tightening, whether to sub again to an SF venue or a knitting magazine.)

[Shweta]

I'm barely here 'cause health is clobbering me, but wanted to say --

Goblin Fruit is buying Apsara (http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/15792.html) as a reprint :) :) :)

Also, :e2grouphu for making up and good news and all

[Dichroic]

I'm barely here 'cause health is clobbering me, but wanted to say --

Goblin Fruit is buying Apsara (http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/15792.html) as a reprint :) :) :)


Yay!

[moblues]

Great news, Shweta.




Mike

[skelly]

Put "The Strange Attractor" In Astropoetica! Woo Hoo! Took awhile but then aint in the hurry y'all seem to be in.

:)

Anyway, it's coolness. Any specpo-ers still here? Di? Rose? Shweta?

[Izz]

Put "The Strange Attractor" In Astropoetica! Woo Hoo! Took awhile but then aint in the hurry y'all seem to be in.

:)

Anyway, it's coolness. Any specpo-ers still here? Di? Rose? Shweta?w00t! Awesome. :)

I've got two spec-ish poems out on sub at the moment. 'Dust Particles' and 'mama sooner'. The latter's more horror--and is for a horror antho, and the former's all about quantum entanglement in a post-apocalyptic world, or some such.

[Dichroic]

Put "The Strange Attractor" In Astropoetica! Woo Hoo! Took awhile but then aint in the hurry y'all seem to be in.

:)

Anyway, it's coolness. Any specpo-ers still here? Di? Rose? Shweta?

Does "put" mean "submitted" or "accepted"? I mean, yay! either way but I want to to know loud to shout it. :)

[Shweta]

I'm here, but sick and with the same confusion Di has.

[skelly]

Shweta I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well :( I will spend the day today sending positives vibes your way. Hope you feel well soon!

Di. Sorry. I meant it was accepted. I got a little carried away, I suppose. I really like Astropoetica as it tends to publish more "hard core science" science poetry, and I was really pleased to put that particular poem there.

Isaac thank you! And good luck placing your poems as well.

Thanks for the kind words you guys.

:)

[Shweta]

Yay for the acceptance, Skelly! And thanks :Hug2:

And oh, Goblin Fruit bought another poem of mine! I am starting to think this is not entirely a fluke :)
It's one I got crits from you guys from -- Song of Shakti -- so THANK YOU :e2grouphu

[skelly]

:hooray:

[Izz]

Speaking of spec-fic, GUD (Greatest Uncommon Denominator) Issue 4 is out with some very fine spec fic poems, including Rose's To a Skylark.

GUD - Buy Me! (http://www.gudmagazine.com/)

I got the chance to review the mag (link in my sig) and reviewed a couple of the poems.

(it also includes a story by Shweta, too)

[Dichroic]

Di. Sorry. I meant it was accepted. I got a little carried away, I suppose. I really like Astropoetica as it tends to publish more "hard core science" science poetry, and I was really pleased to put that particular poem there.

:)

Well, in that case it's YAY! For you and Shweta and Rose ;)

[Shweta]

Anyone feel like listening to the audio version of a poem (http://roberts.vorpus.org/~shweta/Song_of_Shakti.mp3) and telling me if it's a) audible b) comprehensible and c) okay?

[skelly]

Sounds great Shweta. I very much enjoyed that.

[Shweta]

Oh yay! Thank you, skelly :)

It took me for-evah, and then the "hard poem" that I thought would take me hours to record, I managed on the second pass.

[Duke]

Anyone feel like listening to the audio version of a poem (http://roberts.vorpus.org/~shweta/Song_of_Shakti.mp3) and telling me if it's a) audible b) comprehensible and c) okay?

I say it is all of those : A, B & C. Hearing poetry spoken aloud, especially by the author, is naturally appealing. I'm glad that dimension is available to us here. Well done, Shweta.

[Shweta]

I say it is all of those : A, B & C. Hearing poetry spoken aloud, especially by the author, is naturally appealing. I'm glad that dimension is available to us here. Well done, Shweta.

Yay! Thanks, Duke :)

Oh and :hi:

[Gray Rose]

Put "The Strange Attractor" In Astropoetica! Woo Hoo! Took awhile but then aint in the hurry y'all seem to be in.

:)

Anyway, it's coolness. Any specpo-ers still here? Di? Rose? Shweta?

Yo-hoo! Cool mag and congrats Skelly!

I'm not really here!

[skelly]

Dadgummit! Every time you think you see her she's gone before she was never there.

:D

Thank you Rose.

[Shweta]

Blame her students. She's grading.

[Dichroic]

One of the perennial dangers of attempting to get a folkloric, mythical feel in a poem, is that you will end up with a cloying fairies-in-the-garden sweetness instead (unless you go to the other extreme and give your fairies teeth and claws). See diagram:

....................|
....numinous....|....twee
....................|

I'm going for Galadriel more than Cthulhu here, so there is a risk. Could someone please take a look at What You Do Not Know (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142147) and tell me if I stayed on the correct side of that thin line?

[Gray Rose]

Sold a very long speculative poem to Goblin Fruit ("Godfather Death"). I hadn't had a poetry sale for a while, so this is good.
Only one poem in circulation at the moment... What does it mean, I wonder.

[Izz]

w00t!

[Dichroic]

Jiminy. I mean, OK, Rose told us about it already, but still it's quite something to download the Rhysling anthology and see her name in there. Alongside the likes of Brian Aldiss and Jane Yolen!!

[skelly]

Indeed. I gave her some props in today's blog post (http://sak6.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/giza-is-coming/). And before you ask...no. I'm not a bit jealous.

:)

Good luck Rose.

[Izz]

:)

[Gray Rose]

Thank you so much, Skelly! And Dichroic :)

Skelly, it must have been horribly frustrating for you to see that second choice nomination - what a downer! Hope your time for a nomination will come soon!

Also if you're so inclined, please tear apart my poem, Winter woman asks for a face
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3661297#post3661297

[skelly]

Thank you so much, Skelly! And Dichroic :)

Skelly, it must have been horribly frustrating for you to see that second choice nomination - what a downer! Hope your time for a nomination will come soon!

Also if you're so inclined, please tear apart my poem, Winter woman asks for a face
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3661297#post3661297
It wasn't a downer at all Rose, I was thrilled. I was thrilled when some dude from England (possibly even Steve Sneyd but I wouldn't like swear to God about it or anything but it was one of the biggies...probably him), in a letter printed in Star*Line way back when, said of my poem "Beauty in the Black Hole," which had appeared in the previous issue: "It certainly lives up to it's title."

I was high off that for a freakin week! :) I'll check out your poem asap. Good to talk to you again.

[skelly]

Consider it critted Rose! Thanks for your patience. My pop-up blocker is really screwing with me for some reason, and when I tried to put a fancy smilie in the original crit everything went to hell (I presume).

I knew if I tried to go back immediately and redo it I would give it short shrift, so I waited until I didn't want to drown kittens.

:) <------ I can still do these, just not the ones you have to go to another window for.

:D

^ I can do those too.

[Gray Rose]

Skelly - thank you so much again!! As for smilies, here's an idea: they all have shortcuts like : eek : (withouth spaces) produces :eek:, etc. maybe you could print that window out and just use the shortcuts when you feel like a smilie?
:Hug2:

[skelly]

You know, it is a large part of my spec po thematic gestalt to bemoan the fact that technology has not taken us to the place that my early SF imaginings foresaw. And yet, here am I, grateful for alternative ways to generate message board smilies in the absence of a properly functioning pop-up blocker.

What an embarrassing way to prove my own point.

[Gray Rose]

So, i subbed "Whale on the Roof" to GUD. It is probably not the right venue, but I am eager to try out #GUDslush. After that SH, I think.

Thank you so much skelly and dichroic and iz (and all others!) - I think this was my most popular poem yet on AW! *grin*

[Izz]

I'm avoiding #GUDslush. Already got enough insecurities and GUD rejects me far quicker than the average return time on duotrope--last one, received yesterday, was 3 days. So i don't think i need anything spelled out further :D

[Gray Rose]

You? Insecurities? Hmm.

I am yet to be ejected quickly by GUD, but don't really mind this time. So many AW'ers can't be totally wrong - I will hopefully sell it, if not to GUD then to some other venue.

[Izz]

Oh of course you will, Rose. You're a fine poet :)

I was talking solely about myself.

[Gray Rose]

Hugs, Iz. You're a fine writer, maybe just not exactly what GUD is looking for, but not every market will care for every writer's work. Next!

Oh, and I cannot help but brag: a poem of mine is coming out in Jabberwocky 4! Look at the ToC!!
http://oldcharliebrown.livejournal.com/252279.html

[Izz]

w00t!

[skelly]

While we're back up here, I wanted to point everybody to my blog (link in sig). I'm going to put up a Speculative Poetry page called The Void Sprocket. It's intended to pass along information related to the genre--market info and such--so when you come across something contact me here or there and I'll put it up for everybody to see. I'd like to eventually turn it into my own webzine and publish some spec po there as well, but that's probably a future project at this time.

And a reminder, Star*Line opens again July 1. Get ready!

[Izz]

Sounds groovy, Scott :)

[Dichroic]

Scott, that would be good. Rose was just pointing out to me the scary number of specpo venues that have gone tango uniform lately.

(Military radio alphabet slang: tango uniform = TU = tits up = belly up = dead. I just get a kick out of euphemism four layers deep.)

[skelly]

Scott, that would be good. Rose was just pointing out to me the scary number of specpo venues that have gone tango uniform lately.

(Military radio alphabet slang: tango uniform = TU = tits up = belly up = dead. I just get a kick out of euphemism four layers deep.)
No kidding. I've been sitting here since around 3am digging around for useful info to put up and it's rather depressing. Part of the problem is that, outside of the SFPA's Star*Line, who can really afford to put out a spec po print mag?

The Internet offers a few options for online magazines, but there again somebody has to pay for a site, and if you can't afford to pay poets something for their work you can hardly call yourself a professional, or even semi-pro outlet. What they are doing over at GUD looks interesting (and I just sent them some stuff, btw :) so I'll be watching to see how that continues to develop.

I guess my biggest worry is that the dedicated spec po magazines (Star*Line, TMoSP, etc) fall by the way-side, and we're left fighting for page-space in the spec fic markets.

All of that said, back in the late 80's I didn't think speculative poetry would make it past the mid 90's. Let's all hope that my pessimism continues to be proved wrong.

[Gray Rose]

No kidding. I've been sitting here since around 3am digging around for useful info to put up and it's rather depressing. Part of the problem is that, outside of the SFPA's Star*Line, who can really afford to put out a spec po print mag?

The Internet offers a few options for online magazines, but there again somebody has to pay for a site, and if you can't afford to pay poets something for their work you can hardly call yourself a professional, or even semi-pro outlet. What they are doing over at GUD looks interesting (and I just sent them some stuff, btw :) so I'll be watching to see how that continues to develop.

I guess my biggest worry is that the dedicated spec po magazines (Star*Line, TMoSP, etc) fall by the way-side, and we're left fighting for page-space in the spec fic markets.

All of that said, back in the late 80's I didn't think speculative poetry would make it past the mid 90's. Let's all hope that my pessimism continues to be proved wrong.

Good luck with your GUD subs, Scott! I was very happy with them and love the magazine - it's gorgeous.

That said, I think online is the way to go, myself. Certainly more online pubs get nominated for the Rhysling. That's why the loss of LSS had hit so hard - it published quality spec.poetry and had lots and lots of Rhysling noms every year.

[Dichroic]

So.... I've been wondering. What actually is the barrier to setting up a new venue?

Website? I already pay for hosting, and the basic fee comes with a lot more space than I use.
Site design? Pffft. Set up a Wordpress installation. Trivial.
Selecting poems? It's a slush pile, meaning the vast majority are crap anyway. Throw out 90% after a 5-second scan, throw out another 8% after two minutes' thought, decide from among the rest.
Cost? OK, this can be a limiting factor. OTOH, not a few venues pay a buck a pop. everydaypoets.com even makes it easy to donate it back and I bet most do. I could toss in say $10 quarterly, which should cover it.


What am I missing? Attracting good poets? Given the recent dearth of venues, that might not be impossible.......

[Gray Rose]

You will not attract good people by paying them a buck a piece. Pay 5$ and you will be good. Pay 10$ and be golden.

Let's say you're paying 5$. What will attract good poets to your venue?

It's not the nice design - you are using a basic wordpress layout (remember, Goblin Fruit are so wildly successful at part because of the web design - it is gorgeous, and that means a lot to people to be published in an aesthetically pleasing venue). I for one dislike poetry journals that look like wordpress blogs. Looks amateurish imho.

Reputation? You don't have it yet.

Editor is a major speculative poet? Sorry, nope. Mike Allen rules because he is an excellent poet with a very keen eye; and so is David Kopaska-Merkel.

Theme? - think about it. People send stuff to new venues with themes that are not covered by the major available venues. What will you be doing differently from MD, GF, DN, SH?

If you want to do it, do it well, I think. LSS paid 10$ and was almost impossible to crack and was top-notch. What we need, IMHO, is something to replace LSS, not to add another 1$ venue.

And you most emphatically don't (I think) want people to send you poems that had been rejected by the abovementioned venues + star*line. You want people to send you poems first - otherwise slushing will be a very frustrating experience.

This is of course just my IMHO. :)

[caseyquinn]

The other thing to keep in mind is that it is a business. You can attract POETS to submit work by paying them but how are you going to attract readers? Where is your return on investment both financially and your personal time. If you do not have a means to get this traffic then the site will eventually fail -

There is no barrier to setting up a new venue. Just that it takes time. For SSL I spend about 4 hours each week reading submissions. About 2 hours getting the magazine formatted and submitted out. Spend another hour or two trying to increase traffic. I spend money on images for the stories, hosting, domain. As most people will just donate back $1 token pay it seems not worth to offer it at all - with the way paypal works, you lose some of it on the way anyways - If you are going to go the pay route 5 or 10 would attract better quality but again, at some point you need to try and recoup your expenses.

For me, exposure is more important then token payments - traffic and an active readership can translate into sales of a book versus a token payment which would buy a candy bar or a soda one time.

[skelly]

I hate to have to continue the bad news brigade, but I have to agree with Rose. The biggest reason for keeping The Void Sprocket "information only" is that there is no way in hell anyone would accept a free blog as a serious speculative poetry venue, even if I was paying big $$$'s.

Still, I think online is the way to go, and I think if a few of us were determined we could create a presence. It would probably have to start out as a biannual, and rather than post the poetry online, it should be available in a variety of appealing download formats, possibly even an option to POD a physical copy for those who would want it. GUD does this kind of stuff.

As to credibility, a paying speculative poetry market that stays around for a few years will begin to get credibility, and Rose's point about theme, or "slant," cannot be overlooked.

[Gray Rose]

and I think if a few of us were determined we could create a presence.

I should also note that a cooperative editorial endeavor is often fraught with frustrations. I am saying this from experience as an academic co-editor. If there is hierarchy (as in editor, slush readers) it's one thing, but co-editing with someone is very tricky. You want to make sure that you know each other very well, have great communication, and have the same aesthetic. Otherwise you will end up arguing. Conflict is more or less built in to this situation.

It would probably have to start out as a biannual, and rather than post the poetry online, it should be available in a variety of appealing download formats, possibly even an option to POD a physical copy for those who would want it. GUD does this kind of stuff.

GUD is still, after 3+ years in circulation, not paying for itself, and GUD is a package of everything - stories, poetry, art, reports - that make it more marketable than a straight poetry mag would be. People associate online venues with free content, and print venues with paying for content.

As to credibility, a paying speculative poetry market that stays around for a few years will begin to get credibility, and Rose's point about theme, or "slant," cannot be overlooked.
Absolutely agree about credibility.
As for slant, ask yourself what is missing from the current lineup of specpo mags and you might find a good slant :) :)

[Izz]

To sway slightly towards the positive, i don't necessarily think that marketing would be too difficult. Especially right now with LSS just closed and there being (IMO) a bit of a dearth of spec po markets.

Put the word out on LJ, get a few others to do the same. buy some cheap advertising with Project Wonderful on a site like GUD or Flash Fiction Online.

Your first issue or two would likely have to be made up mainly of contributions from known poets, which isn't too hard. Just ask them. That helps with the advertising, too. 'In this issue we have a poem from Rhysling nominee Rose Lemberg, as well as poems from...' (as an example). Setting the tone for the first couple issues that way would begin to attract quality submissions, which in turn attracts readership. I know most magazines do something like this to start off.

Payment would be an issue, of course. But say it started off as an online biannual (or PDF download), and included ten poems (you want quality over quantity) and say one short story (under 2,000 words, or possibly even flash) and the first two issues had 70-80% of the work from people you'd asked to contribute, and say you offered (like LSS did) a rate of ten dollars per poem and twenty dollars per short (or if it's flash, ten per short). For one issue you're looking at an outlay of $110-120 dollars, but it should be chock full of quality, or at least full of names that people will read. Do that for two issues and at the end of the first year you'll likely have gone a long way towards building up a reputation for quality and thus credibility and will pay enough to attract good poets (you'll also pay enough to attract horrible poets, but that's the nature of the game, right?).

As far as a website, i agree that something that doesn't look like a blog is probably a good idea. I've seen online mags in a blog-style format that are relatively successful (Brain Harvest being an example), but for poetry i'm not sure that would work too well, as poets are often just as concerned about presentation as they are about content. But, to be fair, websites aren't that hard to build.

I think the issue, more than expense, is perseverance. I think Eric T. Marin (reading between the lines here) stopped LSS because he'd gotten jaded. And i can see how trawling through all that slush in the hope of finding a gem would do that to you. Even good poetry would become kinda 'meh' after a while.

[Gray Rose]

I agree with what Iz said. Starting a venue is definitely possible; starting the venue in the right way is certainly possible, although it takes more effort than just starting a venue.

I think the issue, more than expense, is perseverance. I think Eric T. Marin (reading between the lines here) stopped LSS because he'd gotten jaded. And i can see how trawling through all that slush in the hope of finding a gem would do that to you. Even good poetry would become kinda 'meh' after a while.
After over five years, sure. That's why I am not a good candidate for editorship - I feel jaded just thinking about it. :D

[Izz]

After over five years, sure. That's why I am not a good candidate for editorship - I feel jaded just thinking about it. :DSame here *gets the slush shivers*

[Shweta]

One way GUD staff deal with the who's in charge issue (and to some extent the jadedness) is to alternate who's in charge every issue (and I think who does most of the slushing).

I am not volunteering here :) I'm just saying.

[Dichroic]

I'm asking more from a hypothetical viewpoint than a practical one, at present. On the other hand, it does seem like one good answer to "not enough venues" is "So, start one!" Most of the problems pointed out seem solvable; the only one that really scares me is CQ's point about readers (speaking as someone who has a downloaded-but-not-yet-read copy of the last issue of GUD sitting around and a copy of the Rhysling collection that landed on my coffee table two days ago that I haven't cracked open yet.

This year, time is much more problematic for me than money. (Though even time is available in small goof-off-between-other-work chunks, just not in big swathes.) I could kick in $110-20 twice a year and a good chunk of submission reading, if there were someone to handle the web-building and marketing and a group to decide direction and general theme.

[Shweta]

Okay, here's the real question: do you think there aren't enough poetry markets out there, or not enough poetry venues? That is: is it as a writer or a reader that you're dissatisfied?

Because I know I'm not reading half the stuff out there. And that's really why there aren't so many markets. Maybe y'all are much better than me, but really if we, the people writing this stuff, are not actually reading half the free spec poetry that's out there, and all we really want is more places to sub to, then perhaps the solution isn't going to appear until after we read more of what's there, and subscribe to extant markets.

Cause there's maybe a reason more markets don't exist if even we are not reading the stuff.

[Dichroic]

Admittedly, for me it's more about the markets. Part of that is because I get to read a lot of great poetry just on LJ and other blogs. The other part of that, really, is that for me AW *counts* as a venue. I come here, I read great poems - or not-so-great ones where I can offer help to make them better - and the poetry-reading itch is scratched.

I don't think that's really the intended function of the crit forum, though. But that really is a lot of why I don't read more of it.

I did / do read things like LSS or GF, where they offer me just a few excellent poems I can go click on. Part of the reason I haven't read GUD is that it's a great huge chunk of text in a PDF file where if I want to read it at all I have to read the whole thing in order. (See: not having great chunks of time, in earlier post.) So I think format is a big issue for me.

[skelly]

Shweta's point is well taken. I think I'm going to add some sort of "suggested reading" page to my spec po page (which isn't exactly rocketing off the launch pad either, due to time constraints).

[caseyquinn]

Okay, here's the real question: do you think there aren't enough poetry markets out there, or not enough poetry venues? That is: is it as a writer or a reader that you're dissatisfied?

Because I know I'm not reading half the stuff out there. And that's really why there aren't so many markets. Maybe y'all are much better than me, but really if we, the people writing this stuff, are not actually reading half the free spec poetry that's out there, and all we really want is more places to sub to, then perhaps the solution isn't going to appear until after we read more of what's there, and subscribe to extant markets.

Cause there's maybe a reason more markets don't exist if even we are not reading the stuff.


Perfectly stated. And this is a problem plaguing many markets including Short Stories of all genre and mainstream poetry. There are tons of writers, not enough readers.

[Gray Rose]

Actually, I think I am coming to this from a reader's angle. As a reader, I was devoted to JoMA and read most of the poems there; and I read all the poems in LSS. With those two venues gone, I am not compensating with poetry from other venues. It's not the same.

As a poet, I never experienced a shortage of markets to submit to, but that's because I have been extraordinarily lucky in my specpo sales.

[Dichroic]

It's not luck.

[skelly]

Welp. Four of the five poems that I sent to GUD just got batted right back. They did put one in the "pending review" file though, so I guess there is still hope.

[Gray Rose]

One entered the shortlisting process? Congrats! That's excellent news.

Dichroic - it *is* luck. I am much less lucky with my short fiction (although after yesterday's Year's Best honorable mention I really should not be complaining) and completely unlucky with my novel querying. Granted, my poems are probably better than my prose, but I actually wonder whether there's really such a humongous difference in quality.

and - I got my Rhysling anthology! Yippee!!

[Gray Rose]

Guess what I got in the mailbox today - acceptance for "Whale on the Roof" from GUD! This has to be the quickest acceptance in the history of GUD. My previous acceptance came after 200+ days - and this is the norm. I am ... shocked, frankly.

Thank you everybody - and especially Skelly - who helped me figure this one out.

Skelly, fingers crossed on your poem - hope we'll be ToC-mates. :D

[Izz]

congrats :)

[skelly]

Guess what I got in the mailbox today - acceptance for "Whale on the Roof" from GUD! This has to be the quickest acceptance in the history of GUD. My previous acceptance came after 200+ days - and this is the norm. I am ... shocked, frankly.

Thank you everybody - and especially Skelly - who helped me figure this one out.

Skelly, fingers crossed on your poem - hope we'll be ToC-mates. :D
Nope. Just got the reject in my email. I did get a personal comment though, so that was nice. I'm thrilled that "Whale" made it though, and not a bit surprised that they snapped it up as fast as they did. I'm going to wait a bit and then sub them another batch.

Congrats to you, Rose! :hooray:

[Izz]

Nope. Just got the reject in my email. I did get a personal comment though, so that was nice. I'm thrilled that "Whale" made it though, and not a bit surprised that they snapped it up as fast as they did. I'm going to wait a bit and then sub them another batch.

Congrats to you, Rose! :hooray:You should frame that, Scott. They hardly ever send out anything but form.

[Gray Rose]

They hardly ever send out anything but form.

This is true. I even got a form acceptance! :D

To balance this out, I also got a form rejection on a story today. Ack.

Scott - thanks, and keep submitting. They liked one so there is a good chance they will like others.

Thanks Iz!

[skelly]

Wooo! Just heard from Marge Simon at Star*Line. She took two for Jan. 2010. YAY! How do you like me now, GUD? How DO you LIKE me ........

Okay, I'm done :D

[Izz]

Wooo! Just heard from Marge Simon at Star*Line. She took two for Jan. 2010. YAY! How do you like me know, GUD? How DO you LIKE me ........

Okay, I'm done :DWahooo! That's awesome!

*iz dances*

[Gray Rose]

YAY Skelly!!!! Major congrats!

[Shweta]

Wooo! Just heard from Marge Simon at Star*Line. She took two for Jan. 2010. YAY! How do you like me now, GUD? How DO you LIKE me ........

Okay, I'm done :D


Awesome!

(And I get the feeling GUD and Star*Line have almost diametrically opposed tastes, though that's based on relatively little data...)

[Jenny]

I am sooooo excited. One of my poems will be joining Scott's in January's Star*Line.

[Dichroic]

I am sooooo excited. One of my poems will be joining Scott's in January's Star*Line.

Yay!!

[Izz]

w00t!

[Gray Rose]

Yay Jenny! Awesome!

I should send something in as well, but the only thing I can think of is "Winter Woman asks for a Face" - and it's scrap.

[Jenny]

Thanks, everyone. I'm a little bit calmer about it today, but not much.

And I like "Winter woman asks for a face". Surely a fantasy mag would snap it up?

[skelly]

I am sooooo excited. One of my poems will be joining Scott's in January's Star*Line.
WOOO! Just saw this! Congrats Jenny. You go ahead and calm down a bit, I'll be excited for both of us :)

See you in January!

[Jenny]

See you January! Yay!!!

[Shweta]

Goblin Fruit's summer issue (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/)'s up and I'm in it :D :D

[Dichroic]

Goblin Fruit's summer issue (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/)'s up and I'm in it :D :D

I don't know if I've ever heard a better description of America* than "Where Kitsune and Anansi
are strangers together".


*Yeah, all of it, not just the US.

[Izz]

w00t!

*iz mexican waves*

[Dichroic]

Shweta,

I hope you will forgive a wee bit of plagiarization jumping off in a new direction...

See, I told you I liked that line... (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3799353#post3799353)

[skelly]

Well done Shweta. I very much enjoyed the read :)

[Shweta]

Well done Shweta. I very much enjoyed the read :)
Thank you :)

And since it's been missed in another place, I just wanted to note that I'm in this issue twice.
One (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/poems/?poem=apsara), two (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/poems/?poem=displaced).

[Dichroic]

Sigh. It really is frustrating when you post something speculative and almost everyone* ignores it because it contains a few names/ideas they don't know (but should).

*Which of course makes the one you do get all the more appreciated - thanks, Shweta.

[Jenny]

Shweta, I loved both poems. Sad, but not sad, and beautiful language.

[Dichroic]

Not actually poetry, but squee (http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1652600.html)! anyway.

[Shweta]

Not actually poetry, but squee (http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1652600.html)! anyway.
Yeah I just saw that and went :Jaw:



didyouseehermood?

:e2faint:

[skelly]

Thank you :)

And since it's been missed in another place, I just wanted to note that I'm in this issue twice.
One (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/poems/?poem=apsara), two (http://www.goblinfruit.net/2009/summer/poems/?poem=displaced).
Thanks for pointing me toward "Displaced," Shweta. I did miss it. I love your voice.

[Shweta]

Thank you, Scott :)
Do you mean my writerly voice or my dorky little-girl voice? :)

Also, I broke down and squeed at Bear.

[skelly]

Thank you, Scott :)
Do you mean my writerly voice or my dorky little-girl voice? :)

Also, I broke down and squeed at Bear.
Writerly voice in this instance. I already told you how much I enjoy your dorky little-girl voice a couple pages back in this very thread :D

I doubt that I would have the courage to actually read any of my work aloud. I can barely stand to listen to myself, I would certainly not want to inflict that on others.

You have a beautiful voice, though. All kidding aside. And the one I listened to before was cool because you were reading it pretty much the same way I generally "hear" your work in my head when I'm simply reading.

[Gray Rose]

Marge Simon bought "Skinning the Slippery Stars" for March 2010 issue of Star*line.

She passed on "Winter Woman", which is great, because I am unhappy with that one.

[Izz]

w00t!

*iz dances*

[Shweta]

Yay Rose!

:heart: that poem. I look forward to it coming out.
I still doubt I've written anything Marge Simon will like, of course :)

[skelly]

Great news Rose. One of these days we are going to get on the same TOC page. We only missed it this time by a couple of months:D

Congrats again.

[Gray Rose]

Great news Rose. One of these days we are going to get on the same TOC page. We only missed it this time by a couple of months:D

Congrats again.

Hey skelly : quick! write a humorous/surreal poem so we can be ToC mates!

[skelly]

Hey skelly : quick! write a humorous/surreal poem so we can be ToC mates!
:roll:

Okay, but if I have to write something humorous/surreal, you have to write something about the CERN Large Hadron Collider.

:D

[Gray Rose]

you have to write something about the CERN Large Hadron Collider.
:D

I'm afraid that would be plagiarism - but if you give me a broader SF prompt I might take you up on the challenge!:Hug2:

[Jenny]

Congrats, Rose :)

[Dichroic]

Yay Rose!
Actually it might be fun to write about CERN.

[skelly]

Yay Rose!
Actually it might be fun to write about CERN.
That's all I needed to hear. I don't do the "prompt" thing largely because if you offer one, you have to respond to one, and I don't usually do well in that environment. But WHAT THE HEY. Here's a prompt. Write a poem about CERN. Doesn't have to be about the LHC.

Let's give ourselves like two weeks for research. Then have at it. Post them here for comment among ourselves, rather than in the crit forum. Then somebody else can prompt. What do you guys think?

[Izz]

Sounds groovy. I need something to kickstart my poetry gears again. And this sounds challenging enough :)

[skelly]

Sounds groovy. I need something to kickstart my poetry gears again. And this sounds challenging enough :)
AWESOME! Thank you Isaac. It's a loose format. Go research all you want and then work your poetic magic sometime between now and two weeks from now. I will do the same.

Anybody else?

[Gray Rose]

sadly, the Large Hadron Collider stuff way over my head - I know nothing about physics :)

[Dichroic]

I don't even need research. I have a story to tell :) (someone else's story, not mine.)

[Izz]

Post them here for comment among ourselves, rather than in the crit forum.Should we post the poems here or in the spec po workshop you started in crit, Scott? We could link to them from here?

[Dichroic]

Should we post the poems here or in the spec po workshop you started in crit, Scott? We could link to them from here?

And then they'd be password-protected, in case anyone wants to do anything else with any of them.

[Shweta]

Oh hey, remember this thing?
Hey y'all, I'd love a few more speccy eyeballs on XII:Tapah (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135), which is a tarot/mythic-ish poem thingy. Di looked at it and didn't explode, promise!

I sold it to Goblin Fruit :)
I am becoming such a Goblin Minion that I should make my little green guy my avvie again.

In other news, do you guys know/care about the lj spec poetry discussions going on? They're interesting!

[Dichroic]

Gosh, you mean like a certain post on prose poetry (http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/31440.html) that's been cited all over LJ in the last few days? :D

I was actually considering linking that one here, and also this one (http://dkolodji.livejournal.com/293497.html), which I thought was an interesting peek into the business / organizational side of spec poetry.

[Shweta]

Hee! Actually I was thinking of these (http://seajules.livejournal.com/366392.html#cutid1) two (http://seajules.livejournal.com/367782.html), and maybe also this (http://samhenderson.livejournal.com/111731.html).

As for mine, I just added 2500 words to it (http://shweta-narayan.livejournal.com/32358.html). Why I cannot write 2500 words of my work in a day is something I need to glare sternly at myself about. SRSLY if I could manage 2500 words of diss a day, I'd be done with a draft by September.

[skelly]

Should we post the poems here or in the spec po workshop you started in crit, Scott? We could link to them from here?
Yup! I'm glad somebody else is thinking about these sorts of things :)

As Di says, then they will be pass-protected.

I'm looking forward to reading other people's takes on the subject. I think I'm going to spend today reading up and start working on mine over a few beers tonight. Hopefully will have something to edit tomorrow morning and then post tomorrow afternoon.

Now if I can just find that dang workshop thread...

[skelly]

I should say up front that I'm not a huge fan of either sf poetry...

and

I probably would not subscribe to Star*Line if it weren't part of the SFPA membership package...

I just sorta skimmed it after that. I've been reading and contributing to Star*Line off and on for over 20 years and it has always leaned most heavily toward SF, science, and fantasy poetry, pretty much in that order. I don't think it is a fair statement to say that Marge is exhibiting some sort of "editorial bias" toward those kinds of poetry. I wonder if the reviewer has read any issues that were edited by Robert Frazier, or Elissa Malcohn.

Anyway, interesting reading Shweta, and congrats on the sale :)

[Dichroic]

sadly, the Large Hadron Collider stuff way over my head - I know nothing about physics :)


Do you guys want me to do a spot of research and write a very short summary of what it does and why? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and an MS in Physical Sciences, and I think I'm pretty decent at explaining things in nontechnical language.

[skelly]

Do you guys want me to do a spot of research and write a very short summary of what it does and why? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and an MS in Physical Sciences, and I think I'm pretty decent at explaining things in nontechnical language.
That might be useful. For the most part, though, I am hoping people will just skim the subject...wiki and so forth...and then see where it takes them poetically. The poem doesn't have to be about the Large Hadron Collider, or CERN, just inspired by it. I would love to see how Rose would apply that to her surrealistic poetry, or if Shweta could find some fantastical mythos there.

From you, Di, I expect nothing less than a full revelation of the engineering mysteries behind the project while I, as usual, will opine wistfully on Dr. Michio Kaku's String Theory.

:D

[Gray Rose]

Shweta - major congrats on the sale! You *are* a Goblin Fruit fiend!

Do you guys want me to do a spot of research and write a very short summary of what it does and why? I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and an MS in Physical Sciences, and I think I'm pretty decent at explaining things in nontechnical language.

I did read the Wiki, and although I understand what it does, I am not sure where and how it enters into my universe. Technology usually doesn't. Yes, I appreciate the longer lifespan and better teeth that come with technology, but this is not where my inner truth lies; I find it hard to be inspired by objects unless they are alive - like, say, a walrus bone fetish discarded into Alaskan snow, or a house, or an old piece of twisted iron. The collider? Not so much, I feel.

That said yes, I would really appreciate your explanation.

I should say up front that I'm not a huge fan of either sf poetry...

and

I probably would not subscribe to Star*Line if it weren't part of the SFPA membership package...

I just sorta skimmed it after that. I've been reading and contributing to Star*Line off and on for over 20 years and it has always leaned most heavily toward SF, science, and fantasy poetry, pretty much in that order. I don't think it is a fair statement to say that Marge is exhibiting some sort of "editorial bias" toward those kinds of poetry. I wonder if the reviewer has read any issues that were edited by Robert Frazier, or Elissa Malcohn.


But skelly, that is exactly her point. Star*line is not just any old venue, it is the flagship magazine of our society. As such, it should maybe reflect the reading tastes and habits of the totality of its membership today. This includes not only the old-timers, but the new generation of speculative poets who lean much more heavily towards fantasy/myth/horror, and that slant is not proportionately represented in Star*line. Speculative poetry, imho, more than any other poetry, should be looking to the future rather than saying "we've been doing it this way forever".


That might be useful. For the most part, though, I am hoping people will just skim the subject...wiki and so forth...and then see where it takes them poetically. The poem doesn't have to be about the Large Hadron Collider, or CERN, just inspired by it. I would love to see how Rose would apply that to her surrealistic poetry, or if Shweta could find some fantastical mythos there.

From you, Di, I expect nothing less than a full revelation of the engineering mysteries behind the project while I, as usual, will opine wistfully on Dr. Michio Kaku's String Theory.

:D

You know, I haven't thought about it this way, but I really do write surrealist shit. :)

[skelly]

Shweta - major congrats on the sale! You *are* a Goblin Fruit fiend!



I did read the Wiki, and although I understand what it does, I am not sure where and how it enters into my universe. Technology usually doesn't. Yes, I appreciate the longer lifespan and better teeth that come with technology, but this is not where my inner truth lies; I find it hard to be inspired by objects unless they are alive - like, say, a walrus bone fetish discarded into Alaskan snow, or a house, or an old piece of twisted iron. The collider? Not so much, I feel.

That said yes, I would really appreciate your explanation.



But skelly, that is exactly her point. Star*line is not just any old venue, it is the flagship magazine of our society. As such, it should maybe reflect the reading tastes and habits of the totality of its membership today. This includes not only the old-timers, but the new generation of speculative poets who lean much more heavily towards fantasy/myth/horror, and that slant is not proportionately represented in Star*line. Speculative poetry, imho, more than any other poetry, should be looking to the future rather than saying "we've been doing it this way forever".




You know, I haven't thought about it this way, but I really do write surrealist shit. :)
I did not nor would I EVER use the term "shit" as regards your work. Let THAT be my last word on THAT :D

As to the jules thing...I just dropped 20 bucks to start a live journal account to blast ALL OVER that shit. it will be my opening post. I'll have it up in about an hour, and I'll link it here.

[skelly]

Aight.

I've officially entered the fray (http://sa-kelly.livejournal.com/679.html). It takes a LOT to get me wound up to the point I will actually throw money at something. This did it.

[Gray Rose]

I did not nor would I EVER use the term "shit" as regards your work. Let THAT be my last word on THAT :D


Oh, I never said you did, Scott. I use that term to refer to my own "confections." I did appreciate the surrealist label.

Aight.

I've officially entered the fray (http://sa-kelly.livejournal.com/679.html). It takes a LOT to get me wound up to the point I will actually throw money at something. This did it.

Scott, are you sure that this is the argument you want to present to the community? I sincerely like and appreciate you, but I cannot side with you in this.

Since you are a newcomer to LJ, it is unlikely that your post will generate visibility unless other people link to it (alternatively, you can promote it yourself, through the spec_poetry community, or by leaving a comment on Deb Kolodij's journal). What I am saying is, you still have some time before people read it - if not to change your opinion (you are entitled to your opinion), but at least to present it in a more courteous manner. For instance, calling someone by her last name in this context is impolite. Yes, you two have a difference of opinion, but why not make an effort and make your entrance into the debate more civil?

Rose

[skelly]

Oh, I never said you did, Scott. I use that term to refer to my own "confections." I did appreciate the surrealist label.



Scott, are you sure that this is the argument you want to present to the community? I sincerely like and appreciate you, but I cannot side with you in this.

Since you are a newcomer to LJ, it is unlikely that your post will generate visibility unless other people link to it (alternatively, you can promote it yourself, through the spec_poetry community, or by leaving a comment on Deb Kolodij's journal). What I am saying is, you still have some time before people read it - if not to change your opinion (you are entitled to your opinion), but at least to present it in a more courteous manner. For instance, calling someone by her last name in this context is impolite. Yes, you two have a difference of opinion, but why not make an effort and make your entrance into the debate more civil?

Rose
I don't know her and I think it rude to refer to people whom I do not know by their first names. If I put "Ms." in all the appropriate places would it help?

Rose I knew you and I would part ways on this issue, and that's okay. I love you to bits and I really enjoy your work. That will never change.

But where it concerns Star*Line, and the SFPA, my position is pretty much set. You would have to have been a part of this before the Internet to understand.

:)

[Gray Rose]

I don't know her and I think it rude to refer to people whom I do not know by their first names. If I put "Ms." in all the appropriate places would it help?

Rose I knew you and I would part ways on this issue, and that's okay. I love you to bits and I really enjoy your work. That will never change.

But where it concerns Star*Line, and the SFPA, my position is pretty much set. You would have to have been a part of this before the Internet to understand.

:)

Hugs. I understand. I posted in spec_poetry, so I think people will start reacting soon. For all it's worth, I think we should be having this discussion, painful as it will probably be.

[skelly]

Hugs. I understand. I posted in spec_poetry, so I think people will start reacting soon. For all it's worth, I think we should be having this discussion, painful as it will probably be.
:)

They won't react that soon. You have to remember, there aren't but about 1000 people on this planet who have the faintest idea what we are talking about.

[Gray Rose]

:)

They won't react that soon. You have to remember, there aren't but about 1000 people on this planet who have the faintest idea what we are talking about.

No, sweetie, it's that they don't want to engage with you. I cannot blame them.

[skelly]

No, sweetie, it's that they don't want to engage with you. I cannot blame them.
Then they have no point that they can defend. Rose I'm gonna leave this here, okay? I really like you and I am a fan of your work. Unfortunately, you have engaged in a debate that you do not belong in.

[Gray Rose]

Then they have no point that they can defend. Rose I'm gonna leave this here, okay? I really like you and I am a fan of your work. Unfortunately, you have engaged in a debate that you do not belong in.

And why is it that I do not belong in this debate, Skelly?

Is it because I am not a science fiction poet? Is it because I am new?

[Dichroic]

Rose said:
Speculative poetry, imho, more than any other poetry, should be looking to the future rather than saying "we've been doing it this way forever".

I think Admiral Grace Hopper is as likely as anyone to be a hero to those who write 'hard' science fiction. She famously said, ""The most dangerous phrase in the language is 'We've always done it this way.' "

When Suzette Haden Elgin founded the SFPA in 1978, purists were already lamenting the change in the genre from its glory days in the 1950s, when fandom and the writers were mostly a boys' club, cool tech was more important than the people who engaged with it, and poetry was generally limited to limericks and the like.

I do not accept any argument that starts with "you weren't here then", because they invariably exclude me. Further, they tend not to recognize the people like me who were doing <whatever the action under discussion is> way back when (In this case, Elgin herself writes poetry with a mythic dimension to it). I'm here now, and I expect the whole freaking world to recognize that.

Having read the arguments popping up all over LJ, I don't think anyone is actually saying that SFPA or Star*line should exclude science fictional poetry, just that they shouldn't be limited to it.

[Gray Rose]

Thinking about this, Skelly, I think you've been purposely offensive to a great number of people - and to me personally. Honestly, I do not see how and where I offended you to warrant such an overheated and uncalled-for reaction. I expressed an opinion different from yours. However, I did my best to address you politely, promote your opinion, and defend your right to have said opinion. Alas, you reciprocated by denigrating and disrespecting me.

There is a way to express strongly held views without descending into a quagmire of rude verbal behaviors. Alas, you keep offending others and expect to be taken seriously; moreover, you expect people to keep talking to you in a polite and considerate manner.

Good luck with that, Scott, as well as with the rest of your life.
Rose

[skelly]

And why is it that I do not belong in this debate, Skelly?

Is it because I am not a science fiction poet? Is it because I am new?
It is because you really do not have the faintest idea what you are talking about...as regards this issue.

That does NOT mean what you have to say is unimportant. You know me Rose, and you know that I wold never disrespect you in that manner.

But we are talking about Star*Line here...and in the larger sense SFPA. You know where I stand on that issue. I have made the point more than clear. I fail to understand why you, and people who agree with you, must take over the SFPA...rename it...and make it your own.

Can you not start your own "thing" and make it as successful? As I have made very clear, Star*Line is a product of Ms. Elgin's desire to push SF poetry forward, to legitimize it. Why do you, and others, want to co-opt that? Why does it need to change? Why do the rest of us have to stand down just because you are here now? Utlimately, why can't you start your own organization and proceed along lines that better suit you?

Oh, I know. It's because Star*Line has been around for 30 years and you want to claim that legacy.

But you cannot.

[skelly]

[quote=Gray Rose;3849242]Thinking about this, Skelly, I think you've been purposely offensive to a great number of people - and to me personally./quote]
I'm sorry that you feel that way Rose. It was never my intention. I'm stating my honest opinion. Nothing more.

[Dichroic]

1. From their own website, and possibly most relevant to poetry:
CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, is one of the world’s largest and most respected centres for scientific research. Its business is fundamental physics, finding out what the Universe is made of and how it works. At CERN, the world’s largest and most complex scientific instruments are used to study the basic constituents of matter — the fundamental particles. By studying what happens when these particles collide, physicists learn about the laws of Nature.

2. One cool thing about basic research or really any huge science or engineering program is that it has spinoffs; in this case the Large Hadron Collider projects include storage and communication of so much data that scientists dealing with them have had to create new ways to do it - resulting in the World Wide Web and development of grid computing (networking thousands of small computers instead of using one enormous supercomputer.

3. The Large Hadron Collider runs two beams of particles (protons or lead ions) around a track in opposite directions. They go arond and around to gain enormous speed before colliding head-on. The idea is that this will recreate, on a small scale, the conditions just after the Big Bang. This matters both in figuring out how our universe is formed and in understanding how it works now. Normal Newtonian physics (action / reaction etc) doesn't actually work at an atomic level. (For instance, a subatomic particle may move *before* a force is applied, or when a force is applied to a *different* particle with which it was previously associated.) Also, our best models of the Universe now indicate the presence of a hell of a lot of matter that we can't see, called dark matter - LHC experimenters hope to be able to understand all of these things better.

[Izz]

1. From their own website, and possibly most relevant to poetry:
CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, is one of the world’s largest and most respected centres for scientific research. Its business is fundamental physics, finding out what the Universe is made of and how it works. At CERN, the world’s largest and most complex scientific instruments are used to study the basic constituents of matter — the fundamental particles. By studying what happens when these particles collide, physicists learn about the laws of Nature.

2. One cool thing about basic research or really any huge science or engineering program is that it has spinoffs; in this case the Large Hadron Collider projects include storage and communication of so much data that scientists dealing with them have had to create new ways to do it - resulting in the World Wide Web and development of grid computing (networking thousands of small computers instead of using one enormous supercomputer.

3. The Large Hadron Collider runs two beams of particles (protons or lead ions) around a track in opposite directions. They go arond and around to gain enormous speed before colliding head-on. The idea is that this will recreate, on a small scale, the conditions just after the Big Bang. This matters both in figuring out how our universe is formed and in understanding how it works now. Normal Newtonian physics (action / reaction etc) doesn't actually work at an atomic level. (For instance, a subatomic particle may move *before* a force is applied, or when a force is applied to a *different* particle with which it was previously associated.) Also, our best models of the Universe now indicate the presence of a hell of a lot of matter that we can't see, called dark matter - LHC experimenters hope to be able to understand all of these things better.Cool. Thankies, Paula. That saves me a bit of researching up time :)

I think I have a first line:

I'm stuck on reality

[Izz]

I have a leturn horrendus draft.

Formatting it to post here is going to be a pig, though.

[Jenny]

I'm hooked on dark matter, so I've answered the CERN challenge in Poetry Crit. Thanks for your post on CERN, Dichroic.

[skelly]

Uh...Isaac? Di?

:D

[Izz]

I think I'm going to sit this one out.

[skelly]

I think I'm going to sit this one out.
I totally understand :)

Take care my friend.

[Dichroic]

I have a stanza. Just need a few more.

[Adam Israel]

I've (re-)read this entire thread. I have something in mind that I've been trying to flesh out for a few months. I think it's time to sit down, write it, and get some help from you all.

[Jenny]

Good luck - and I love the Tesla quote.

[skelly]

On a markets note, has anyone here submitted to/had a response from Abyss and Apex recently? Duotrope says they haven't responded to any poetry submissions since July. I'm starting to wonder if something's wrong and it just isn't listed on their site (editor sick, change of email or something like that).
I haven't sent them anything in quite awhile. Their "announcements" page says that they are closed to poetry until December.

[finnisempty]

I wonder if I fall under this category. I do write with surreal-like elements. I tend to stick with the prose poetry description. Heck, I don't know I'm not good at labeling.

[skelly]

Science and science fiction poets needed! Check us out (http://valentrange.wordpress.com/).

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o88/sak2112/VRlogo.jpg