Non-fatal stabbings....

[Fractured_Chaos]

Since what I'm writing is horror, and this be de horror section....:D

I figure this is good a place as any to ask....

Anyone here familiar enough with anatomy to tell me several places a human body can be stabbed with an approximately 6 inch blade, that would not be fatal for at least two hours? The blade would need to stay in the wound, but could possibly be knocked out, or fall out in a scuffle.

And no, I'm not making any plans to off my fiance, I don't care how loud he snores. ;)

[brokenfingers]

I believe the thigh or the buttocks are two good places.

[Fractured_Chaos]

I believe the thigh or the buttocks are two good places.

:eek:

:ROFL:

OMG! The imagery of this big, burly, scary guy stabbing someone in the buttocks just hit me the wrong way! :ROFL:

But that is a good possibility to use! *makes a note*

[brokenfingers]

LOL! I can imagine, but usually in close quarters fighting where neither opponent can escape it rapidly winds up like a wrestling match - you wind up stabbing blindly and wherever you can hit (especially if one guy is unarmed and can't escape- he'll try to get in close and try to immobilize the arm holding the weapon)

Stab wounds to the thigh are pretty frequent...

[Fractured_Chaos]

Chances are good there will be some fighting in close quarters, but more often than not, he'll be taking his intended victim by surprise, and is able to overpower them.

See, the guy is a "serial killer" who stalks his victims, first (never actually contacts them or whatever, but watches them, and studies them). And he's using the dagger to immobilize them, so he can get them to another place to actually kill them.

The immobilization process is more supernatural (involving a crystal that will actually render the Demon inhabiting the body powerless for a time). And the "body" is actually already dead in a sense (ie; the original soul that inhabited the body fled, and the demon took advantage of the vacancy) But he can't risk killing them before he gets them to a place where he can draw the demon out, and seal it away. If the body dies before he gets to the sacred location, then the demon can escape, and find another body to inhabit (Think "The Fallen" with Denzel Washington).

So, there are several scenarios that can be used. The actual killing will only really be touched on once (I see no point in graphic violence over and over again for the same exact thing, you know?).

[brokenfingers]

Ah so.....

"I see", said the blind man...

[Fractured_Chaos]

And you know what? I'm am probably one of the most passive people on the planet when you meet me face-to-face. :D

[Liam Jackson]

Original post deleted. I'll try again after some sleep. :)

[Spookster]

Stupid computer ate my post. Let's try this again, shall we...

If the killer sneaks up from behind and a struggle occurs, the most likely place a stab will occur is the upper torso. We can work with this. Most stabbings allot for a two or three hour window. He could stab the shoulder blade, neck or even ribs. Just as long as he missed the major arteries, it should stay realistic. Weakness will ensue with bloodloss, though. I would avoid the neck, as there are many major arteries in the neck/collarbone. But, it could still work. Your best bet would probably be the shoulder blade, just above the lung cavity.

Hope this helps.

Spooky, avid watcher of Trauma ER

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Also the abdomen will work. Person will bleed slowly but if they live will most likely get sepsis from the leakage from the colon. Thigh wouldn't be to good, person could still get away and not bleed to death. Under the arm pit, straight into the lung would work. Person wouldn't be able to breath let alone get away.

[Liam Jackson]

As this is somewhat my area of expertise, I'll weigh in. Lower abdomen is probably the most likely spot for a slow internal bleed out. (2-8 hours) If the blade misses the vitals and hits the bowels instead, the victim has a good chance of surviving the stab wound only to die of infection, later. (as Kevin pointed out.) Stab wounds to a lung can take a while, but if the wound is deep, the lung can collapse, sometimes against the heart. A shot under the armpoint only has to penetrate (on average) 5 cmm before it hits the outer wall of the lungs. (Air embolisms become a very possibility with this type of wound, in which case death is quick.)

I've been stuck through a shoulder blade. Not much of a chance for death unless the blade is: A. longer than your average 4 1/2" folder, or the attacker is strong enough to bury the blade up to the handle, B. blood pressure bleeds you out, (blood pressure rises like a ***** when you're stuck, even when you're prone) C. The wound channel is excpetionally wide.

For a really slow bleed, the wound channel has to bypass the liver, spleen, kidney, aorta, vena cava, iliac, and mesenteric vessels. That's not as tough as it sounds, provided the entry point is at least a couple of inches below the navel and angled down. Again, your mileage may vary, but you can hang on anywhere from 2-8 hours with a deep, lower ab wound. Longer if the wound misses all vitals. Still have to consider the high possibility of embolisms. Gut wounds are nasty business.

One other note regarding stab wounds to the lower extremities. As someone pointed out, knife attacks frequently turn into wreslting matches, unless the weilder is practiced and proficeint. Most wounds to the legs or lower ab occur when the victim falls to the ground and kicks out at the attacker, or curls into a fetal position for cover. In these cases, the wounds are generally slices and not stabs.

A serial killer who purposely sticks a victim below the navel is either betting that help is a longggg way off and he wants the victim to suffer, or he's begging to be identified by his victim in a line-up at a later date.

Oh, and tell Mr. Serial Killer to stay away from the neck if he wants a slow death. There's very few spots where he can inflict damage that will cause death 2-3 hours later, and a great many spots where he'll kill in seconds or minutes. The neck is first choice for a knifer and a close second for a sticker (ice pick, stiletto, etc.)

Quick kills are much simpler to plot. :)

[Fractured_Chaos]

Quick kills are much simpler to plot. :)

Yeah, but that would just take all the fun out of it. :D

So here's the next question: (and anyone who can answer, please do! This is not just directed to Liam*)

What are the effects of movement on the body after the belly stab you described? We're talking a situation where the blade will remain in the body during transit. Two hours will be all the killer needs to get the body where he needs to, do what he has to, and -then- make a quick kill to finish off the victim.

Another question: Someone mentioned stabbing through the shoulder blade if the attack is from behind. Barring the strength of the killer (which goes without saying, is rather strong), wouldn't there be a problem with the impact of blade against bone risk breaking the blade? Or at the very least, interfere with the stabbing enough to prevent the blade from being buried up to the hilt (which is important to the story...really)? Or am I woefully misinformed about human anatomy?



*Not that I don't greatly appreciate the info everyone is giving me, including Liam ;)

[Liam Jackson]

I've seen a few thin steak knife blades broken off in chests and shoulder blades. Never seen a heavier blade broken off in the shoulder blade. Either could cause the slow bleeding youre shooting for, but the chest wound is far more likely. I also saw an ice-pick broken off in a quadriceps. Fleshy portion of the outer thigh and nowhere near the femur. We never did figure that one out. Angle and force can cause some strange things.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Depending on the knife, it might not break. The clavicle isn't a very thick bone and just remember that hunters use knifes all the time on animals. If you do an under the armpit stick then make sure it is on the right side, opposite side of the heart. Don't stick the blade in all the way. If you go through the clavicle you have to be carefull. Bone fragments can peirce the heart and kill you quick, again, use right side for this. Abdomen stabs can give the victim time to get away, if they are smart enough and have a strong will that is.

If you want the victim to not struggle then I say go through the back. Peirce the spinal cord and paralyze them. If you miss the kidneys, arteries and veins, which can be done, then they will not be able to move and they will bleed out. Hit about mid-back, you will miss the lungs, heart, and kidneys but will most likely hit the stomach and intestines which will make for a slow death.

After I posted the lung scenario I relaized that that wouldn't be possible, as Liam already explained. You can get an embolism, collapsed lung, or if that didn't happen you could throw thrombosis and have a heart attack or a stroke, depending on which way the clot went.

[Liam Jackson]

Double post. Deleted

[Liam Jackson]

This thread is starting to resemble a Force Recon manual. And we haven't even touched on machetes, Spook's weapon of choice. :)

[Fractured_Chaos]

This thread is starting to resemble a Force Recon manual. :)

Heeheehee! :D

That's just fine with me! I'm enjoying every bit of it.

The more info I can get, the better. I may not use all of it directly in the story, but the knowledge will make what I -do- use more believable, right?

[Fractured_Chaos]

Also, please keep in mind (I probably should have made this clear in the begining)..

It's vital that the dagger remain in the body during transit. There is a stone wired to the hilt (or perhaps embedded into the blade?), that must stay in contact with the flesh (which is what temporarily immobilizes the demon possessing the body).

And the body needs to remain alive during transit* (which will be about 2 hours), else the stone immobilizing the demon will become inert, and the demon will be able to escape and possess another body.



*Although, I think a scene where the body dies in transit and the consequences will make for a good scene later on in the book.

[BradyH1861]

Sorry to be pitching in late, but this is right up my alley. I agree with Liam. Lower ab is a good choice. Though depending on a variety of factors, you could theoretically stick someone just about anywhere and get the results, HOWEVER, they won't always be the same. For instance, my old EMT textbook shows an X Ray of a guy with a blade through his neck (and still alive). The blade missed his juglar by inches. Of course, that is not normal for that to happen. Oh the wonderful world of puncture wounds! I've been stabbed once with a small blade knife in the thigh, but thankfully it didn't hit my femoral artery. I do have a nice scar though. It hurt like hell, but I was more mad than I was in pain I think. I mean, who in their right mind would want to stab a fireman who was only there to help....well, at least one person would. And I was more upset at the police officer who put the guy in the cell without searching him for weapons. (procedures exist for a reason)

Anyway, if you want to see some photos of various puncture wounds, let me know and I can scan some in from my various EMS publications. Though I wouldn't advise looking at them right before lunch (or right after)!

:banana:

Brady H.
(sorry about the banana...it is an illness I can't cure)

[BradyH1861]

Can we talk about gunshot wounds next?


Brady H.

[Liam Jackson]

Greetings, Brady! I was just thinking this morning that you should check in on this issue.

As for gunshot wounds, those jokers hurt like a *****! But we can discuss and compare notes if you like. Meanwhile, glad to see you in the Horror forum.

BTW, I'll share a quick story with you about wounds to the neck and gunshots. One night, I'm working a drug deal in a really sleezy neighborhood. A few minutes into the deal, I hear sirens coming my way. The thug I'm working runs, so I ease down the road to see what's kicking. At the next intersection, there's a nightclub and I see three crusiers come sliding into the parking lot. The uniforms come out with shotguns and work their way inside. I kinda tag along at a distance.

Seems the club operator had just shot another thug with a .45 loaded with ball ammo. Said thug is hit just above the left eyebrow and the round takes him off his feet. But he isn't finished. He gets up, staggers around, then goes after the operator. (Apparently, the operator never heard of "shoot until the threat is neutralized.)

The bad guy is a big ole' go-rilla, and now he's really pissed. he comes across the bar and the operator freaks and drops his gun. He thinks he's fighting a ghost or zombie or something. Several people pile on go-rilla and after a brief struggle, it's all over and go-rilla is deader than a $2.00 car battery.

Official cause of death? A single puncture wound to the Pneumogastric nerve (Vegas nerve), causing central nervous system shut-down, and cardiac arrest. (The .45 ball was lodged just inside the skull.)

The human body is a bizarre piece of machinery.

[BradyH1861]

It is indeed. When I got hurt, we were working a warehouse fire. The building was three stories tall. I was on the ladder company at the time. We were on the roof getting ready to open it up, but the roof started to get very very spongy. Uncomfortably so. I made the decision to back off. Three guys made it to the ladder safely. I was about five feet from the edge of the roof and safety when the thing caved in. I had just enough to time make it two steps and jump for the ladder.....I missed. So down I fell about 36 feet and landed on my back (I was wearing a pack at the time). I still have the pack as a souvenire of sorts. I landed so hard I bent the composite shell. Anyway, I couldnt feel anything from my chest down. They naturally thought I was paralyzed. So I got flown to the trauma center and got the royal treatment. (thus ensuring my undying devotion to ER Nurses and Doctors) The amazing thing is that I was not paralyzed. Apparently the force caused the area around my spine to swell and compress my nerves, but once they got that under control, my feeling slowly but surely returned. I was in the hospital for a couple of months and on light duty for a while after that, but I was able to return to full duty eventually. Even the doctors were baffled. All I can say is that someone was watching out for me that day. I've had other minor injuries since then, but nothing near as serious. My back still hurts from time to time, but not so bad that I cannot function. Yep, the human body is truly amazing.

That said, I am careful now. I have used eight of my nine lives. I may not be so lucky next time.
Brady H.

[Fractured_Chaos]

:Jaw:

You gentlemen (and ladies) keep going. I'm devouring this stuff like Godiva Chocolates!

Anyhow, I need to head for that place that gives me a steady check for now. But if it's slow tonight (and it usually is on Mondays), I'll be checking in.

Thank you all for the info! :D

[katiemac]

This thread not only is amazingly interesting, it's more interesting than I could imagine. I've got a couple of questions concerning this, too, but I never thought to ask on the boards. I'll have to go back and read this thread more carefully, then develop my questions. Don't go away! I'll need your brains later.

[three seven]

Have you accounted for the inhibition of haemorrhaging from leaving the blade in situ? If not, there might be a few more arteries open to you. In a manner of speaking.

[katiemac]

Did you guys catch the X-ray scans of the guy who shot himself through the roof of his mouth with a nail gun? Didn't realize the wound for six days, ended up at the dentist due to a "tooth ache." The nail is completely vertical, and is even embedded an inch or two into his brain. Ylegggh!

http://media.mnginteractive.com/media/paper36/0116nail1.jpg
Anyway, I guess it's time for my own questions. I'm dealing with a couple of stabbings, and one or two gunshot wounds.

Okay. So, if someone were to be stuck through the back with some kind of metal rod, basically skewered on the thing (in through the upper back and out through the abdomen) obviously character isn't going to make it, but only needs to stay alive for, oh, maybe 5 for minutes? Might do a little fighting back, but I figure that's plausible depending on how determined you are -- and this girl's determined.

I've got another guy who's shot in the shoulder, and the bullet's removed without a doctor's care. (I'm also curious about bullets that stay in the body?)

And... I think this is my last one... guy gets stabbed in the neck. He'll still have to do some heavy fighting, or I could get him in the back shoulder blade if that would make it easier for him to move around. If I did that, would the arm go limp? Useless?

*sigh* No wonder they don't put stuff like this one the regular web. And if they do, and I've somehow managed to miss it, could someone please point me in the right direction? Thanks!

[Liam Jackson]

Okay. So, if someone were to be stuck through the back with some kind of metal rod, basically skewered on the thing (in through the upper back and out through the abdomen) obviously character isn't going to make it, but only needs to stay alive for, oh, maybe 5 for minutes? Might do a little fighting back, but I figure that's plausible depending on how determined you are -- and this girl's determined.

I worked a scene years ago in which a car had skidded off wet asphalt, and ran over a highway sign post. The sign caught on something underneath the car and ripped loose from the metal post. The post shot up through the floor, went through a passenger's thigh, into the stomach and out thru the back just above the kidneys. Extraction was very complicated, as you might imagine. The victim hung on for about a half hour.

I've got another guy who's shot in the shoulder, and the bullet's removed without a doctor's care. (I'm also curious about bullets that stay in the body?)

There's a few million folk, worldwide, carrying around bullets, fragments and shrapnel. Sometimes, invasive surgery can cause more harm than good, so the docs leave the foreign object(s) alone.

And... I think this is my last one... guy gets stabbed in the neck. He'll still have to do some heavy fighting, or I could get him in the back shoulder blade if that would make it easier for him to move around. If I did that, would the arm go limp? Useless?

Again, neck wounds are touchy spots. Major nerve bundles, the carotid triangle, jugular, etc... However, if the blade manages to miss all the goodies, you've got a soft tissue wound, and the character can fight on. With regard to the human body and physical combat, almsot anything is possible.

Regarding the "dead arm issue" there are a few circumstances that will render the arm useless
1. Extensive trauma to the head of a major muscle (primarily bicep, deltoid)
2. Injury to connective tissue (tendons, ligamets)
3. Severing or tearing major nerves (Ulna and radial)
4. Pain threshold and physcological impact of the wound.

[Fractured_Chaos]

Man! I don't envy you and Brady your jobs...But I certainly am grateful for guys like you out there! :Hug2:

[Liam Jackson]

Age forced me into a teaching enviornment. The heavy stuff is for the youngsters.

As for Brady and his peers, those guys are crazy. Fire hurts! (And you can't subdue a fire with a shotgun or the Kansas City Lateral Restraint (choke hold).
I'm very grateful for those nutty firefighters.

[MacAllister]

dang! Is this thread hot, or WHAT?! Who knew that all we had to do was talk about mayhem and violence for everyone to jump in...:D

[jdkiggins]

And you know what? I'm am probably one of the most passive people on the planet when you meet me face-to-face. :D

Uh huh. That's probably what all serial killers say.

[jdkiggins]

I had seen that nail-in-the-head scene before. Amazing.

There is such great information in this thread. I can't add anything useful to all these great comments.

My daughter knows how technical I can get when I write, so she bought me the book Gray's Anatomy. If anyone ever needs a quick look-up on parts, let me know. :)

Joanne

[Fractured_Chaos]

Uh huh. That's probably what all serial killers say.

Sssshhhhhhhh! :Ssh:

I don't want everyone knowing my secrets! :wag:

[Fractured_Chaos]

Okay, this discussion was somewhat fruitful. I'm not sure if it was too graphic, or not graphic enough.

Anyone want to take a look and tell me what you think?

Walking With Shadows (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=146858#post146858); opening scene.

[Spookster]

I found this link to a forensic pathology site.

WARNING: SITE CONTAINS GRAPHIC PHOTOGRAPHS
Not for children or those with weak stomachs!

http://www-medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/FORHTML/FORIDX.html#2

It's a very intersting site and helpful for visualizing physical effects of stab wounds.

[BradyH1861]

As for Brady and his peers, those guys are crazy. Fire hurts! (And you can't subdue a fire with a shotgun or the Kansas City Lateral Restraint (choke hold).
I'm very grateful for those nutty firefighters.

As for Liam and his peers, THOSE guys are crazy! I am grateful for nutty police officers, or as we say in my neck of the woods PO-lice. Next fire I see, I will try to apply a choke hold....so if you never hear from me again, assume it was unsuccessful!

Brady H.

[Spookster]

As a citizen I'm greatly appriciative to any and all (wo)men that risk their lives to protect mine.

Brady, I thought you may like these pics. They're from one of the SoCal brush fires.

WARNING: ADULT CONTENT ON THIS SITE
http://www.ehowa.com/features/socalfires.shtml

Spooky, who loves man in uniform. ;)

[DaveKuzminski]

I seem to recall reading in the news over the past few decades about a couple of cases where someone was impaled severely and still survived, meaning they had an object through the abdomen, head, or some other part. Basically, it just depends upon what the object hits upon piercing the body as to whether survival is possible and how much shock the injured person experiences. Some people react quite unnaturally upon seeing something sticking in their body and just casually pluck it out.

I may fall into that group as I've been hit by a dart and a metal object on two occasions. Those didn't go all the way through, of course, but I just plucked those out without giving the wounds any real thought. I don't know how other people might act, but I suspect they might be somewhat like myself. Also, although I can get just as emotional as other people, I'm generally slower to react in that manner. That may similarly have something to do with such wounds because the individual may have the ability to suppress or delay any shock from occurring. Possibly, if a person can rationalize that his chances for survival are still good, then shock might not set in and the individual can actually survive.

[three seven]

just casually pluck it out.
Worst. Plan. Ever.

Lots of people have survived being impaled on lots of things. Spikes, scaffold poles, fence posts, tree limbs... It's actually not that hard to miss the really touchy organs and just take out a lung, a section of bowel, whatever.

The majority of single stab and gunshot wounds are non-fatal.

What really makes me laugh is when someone in a film gets stabbed in the shoulder blade and falls down dead on the spot. Just doesn't happen.

[Mike Martyn]

I agree this is an amazingly interesting post. I acknowlege that Liam et al have far more knowledge than I have so I'll limit myself to a couple of personal anecdotes:

1.one of my fellow sparrers hadn't been to class (TKD) in a while. I saw him in the change room on his return. On the right side of his chest was a small puckered scar. On his back there was a scar about an inch across. Exit and entrance wounds respectively from a bread knife. He went to the defense of some old man who was being hassled by some low lifes and he got stabbed. He knew he was dead if he went down so he kept on fighing and managed to chase them off despite his collapswd lung. He said it didn't hurt. Adrenalin is a powerful analgesic;

2. I was stabbed in the outer thigh once. Wound would have been four inches deep. It just tingled a bit and I tried to tell myself it was just rainwater running into my shoe. It wasn't water of course. It needed stiches since the muscle tension kept the wound open. It healed up quickly leaving a nice scar. I never wanted to wear a thong bathing suit anyway so that's ok!

If you get stabbed in the inner thigh, you risk severing the femoral artory and you'll bleed out in a minute or less, or so I've been told.

I took arnis (knives and sticks) from a Filapino instructor some years ago. Very impressive man. Classic strategy is the block the attaker's forearm (an odd sort of hooking motion, not the classic karate knife hand block since that may redirect the attacker's blade up your arm and into your throat), slice through the tendons on the underside of the wrist, then slice through the tendons on the top of the wrist continuing the slicing motion up to the neck and through the carotid artory or what ever vein or artory's up there.

I had some interesting e-mail from a mourge (sp?) attendent in the Phillpines when I was studing Arnis. According to him, those that had died in knife fights almost always had the wrist tendons severed. Then they were defensless.

I've heard of situtations where someone feels they've been punched in the back only to find out later they've been stabbed.

A final bit of arnis wisdom. In a knife fight, the loser dies in the street, the winner dies in the hospital!

[Liam Jackson]

Worst. Plan. Ever.

Lots of people have survived being impaled on lots of things. Spikes, scaffold poles, fence posts, tree limbs... It's actually not that hard to miss the really touchy organs and just take out a lung, a section of bowel, whatever.

The majority of single stab and gunshot wounds are non-fatal.

What really makes me laugh is when someone in a film gets stabbed in the shoulder blade and falls down dead on the spot. Just doesn't happen.

Hollywood is, well...Hollywood. :) I've never seen a guy knocked head-over-*** by a .357, either. (I wasn't) But in Hollywood, a .22 short sends the bad guy flying through the air.

RE: Bold text in the quote above- Very true, provided you qualify the statement by including the entire body (extremnities) and keep in mind we're talking about untreated wounds. An untreated gunshot wound to a lung is fatal far more often than not.

In the context of this thread, and given the mission of Drgnlvr's character, we are shooting for incapacitating blade wounds that kill, but not quickly, and wounds that won't be patched up in a triage center or ER. Some possible areas we've examined carry substantial risk of quick death, unless the serial killer is highly skilled, lucky as hell, or the victim receives timely medical intervention.

[BradyH1861]

Brady, I thought you may like these pics. They're from one of the SoCal brush fires.

WARNING: ADULT CONTENT ON THIS SITE
http://www.ehowa.com/features/socalfires.shtml

Spooky, who loves man in uniform. ;)


Thanks! Those are some amazing pictures.

Brady H, who loves Sarah Michelle Gellar. :o

[Liam Jackson]

What Brady said. That's a great link.

[Fractured_Chaos]

I'll chime in on that, Spooky! Thanks for the links!

[BradyH1861]

I just wanted to report that Liam was correct. One cannot successfully apply a chokehold to a fire. The scars should go heal eventually!

:banana:


Brady H.

[Liam Jackson]

Brady, I hear Aloe Vera is good for that.

On a somewhat(?) related note: While chokes do not work on fire, a fire ax serves just fine as a search warrant.

[Liam Jackson]

I agree this is an amazingly interesting post. I acknowlege that Liam et al have far more knowledge than I have so I'll limit myself to a couple of personal anecdotes:

...I've heard of situtations where someone feels they've been punched in the back only to find out later they've been stabbed.

A final bit of arnis wisdom. In a knife fight, the loser dies in the street, the winner dies in the hospital!

Thanks for adding to the forum, Mike. Valuable input. Hope you -stick- around for a while. (okay, okay...so it's a lousy pun :) )

Final add-on notes:
That "punch in the back" accurately describes my own experience. I didn't realize I had been stuck for a good five minutes.

We trained with a Filipino escrima instructor for a while (military)...just long enough to understand those guys are the reason God made firearms.

RE: knife attacks and severed tendons. Conventional forensic law enforcement unofficially recognizes five types of assailants. (Put one forensic specialist in a room and tell him to vote on something, and you STILL wont get a consensus)

a. incidental slasher- victim exhibits multiple horizontal and diagonal slashes across forearms, chest and face (to a lesser degree, the lower extremnities) **common to "crime of passion" and "rage" murders

b. incidental stabber- Vertical stabs, usually delivered with a great deal of force from high overhanded strikes. This actor will generally inflict numerous wounds. Victim may exhibit multiple puncture woulds to head, face, shoulders, arms and chest
**another type common to "crime of passion" and "rage" murders

c. martial-trained assailant- Usually a military-trained assailant, and to lesser degree, civilian martial artist (not many martial arts teach proficent knife skills) The number of wounds are minimal and assailant targets highly strategic anterior areas. Slashes to inner thigh, inner elbow, wrists, neck etc; Clean incise/rip to jugular, carotid triangle, jugular/trachea; puncture to second vertebrae, eye, beneath armpit into the chest, precise punctures to diaphram and/or heart. The manner in which a throat is cut is a good indicator of the level of expertise involved **we won't get into posterior targets**

d. Pattern/ritual attackers -
This attacker may or may not be skilled, but he/she is faithful to the MO. He/she will adhere to the same MO in vitually every crime, and for no other reason than repetition, gains a certain level of proficiency.
**Serial or mass

e. Situational attacker- A good example of this type is a guy in bar. He gets into a scuffle with another patron. He pulls a knife, the two men close into grappling distance, the knifer sticks his advesary a single time, and steps back. This a fairly common scenario on Saturday nights in Small Town, USA.

[Fractured_Chaos]

I just wanted to report that Liam was correct. One cannot successfully apply a chokehold to a fire. The scars should go heal eventually!

:banana:


Brady H.

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

[Fractured_Chaos]

Thanks, Liam! Between the info I'm getting here, and the forensics site that Spooky plugged, I am going to have tons of material. :D

Keep it coming, guys!

[Mike Martyn]

[
We trained with a Filipino escrima instructor for a while (military)...just long enough to understand those guys are the reason God made firearms.



Arnis and escrima are very similar. I realised after a couple of lessons with the Filipino instructor, any unarmed knife disarms I knew would get me killed.

I took my training back to the dojang and illustrated the futility of unarmed defense with the trusty old rubber knife. Straight stab then quick reverse of the blade (Tanto style) to slash and then into the side got them every time!

I agree. If you're going to a knifw fight take a gun!

[Torin]

Just a note: if you're going to specify a nerve or muscle in particular, do the research so someone who DOES know their anatomy well doesn't think you're an idiot. I read a book once in which someone slashed a guy across his upper arm and took out his brachial artery, which is all well and good if you don't know that the brachial artery runs down the INSIDE (medial humerus) of the upper arm close to the body, not outside (lateral humerus), and another book had a guy slam someone else's forearm on a metal table and broke his radius. Unfortunately, ulna is the one that ends along the baby finger side of your arm. Radius comes down the thumb side. My brain did contortions trying to make that one work.

So...don't pick muscles, nerves, bones or arteries at random. Know your body.

Torin, stepping down off anatomical rant soapbox

[Liam Jackson]

Excellent comment, Torin. It's easy to make a mistake when referencing human anatomy. So many moving parts with similar names, functions, etc. Unfortunately, one or two such mistakes can quickly erode the reader's confidence. The massive numbers of inaccurate websites doesn't help, either.

If you intend to write scenes heavy with anatomical description, you might consider investing in a copy of Gray's Anatomy. The current edition is #39, and was published in late 2004. Relatively expensive, but worth the investment if this type of story is your bag.

I'm not sure that level of description/explanation is really worth the effort unless you're writing a highly technical story. Too much room for error.

[Fractured_Chaos]

Just a note: if you're going to specify a nerve or muscle in particular, do the research so someone who DOES know their anatomy well doesn't think you're an idiot. I read a book once in which someone slashed a guy across his upper arm and took out his brachial artery, which is all well and good if you don't know that the brachial artery runs down the INSIDE (medial humerus) of the upper arm close to the body, not outside (lateral humerus), and another book had a guy slam someone else's forearm on a metal table and broke his radius. Unfortunately, ulna is the one that ends along the baby finger side of your arm. Radius comes down the thumb side. My brain did contortions trying to make that one work.

So...don't pick muscles, nerves, bones or arteries at random. Know your body.

Torin, stepping down off anatomical rant soapbox

These are precisely the mistakes I want to avoid. Which is why I'm incredibly grateful for all the experts on this board. :D

[Fractured_Chaos]

I'm not sure that level of description/explanation is really worth the effort unless you're writing a highly technical story. Too much room for error.

I look at it this way...While my scenes are not going to be -that- technical (ie, I can just use plain, everyday english to describe what's happening), I want to know enough to avoid the "Hollywood" mistakes...like having someone die from a wound that normally wouldn't kill you.

But if I ever do decide to write something that will be highly technical....I'll be sure to invest in a copy of Grey's Anatomy. :D

[Liam Jackson]

Regarding the line about ultra-technical details:
I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was speaking of your WIP, drgnlvr. I wasn't. I think your approach to the crime and the research youve conducted is very appropriate to the story. I also think you've got a great story line and I'm anxious to read the finished product. *Cheers*

[Fractured_Chaos]

Regarding the line about ultra-technical details:
I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was speaking of your WIP, drgnlvr. I wasn't. I think your approach to the crime and the research youve conducted is very appropriate to the story. I also think you've got a great story line and I'm anxious to read the finished product. *Cheers*

Not at all, Darlin'! I was (badly, I admit) applauding the idea of getting Grey's Anatomy if you do go into technical details.

Getting -any- kind of detail wrong is a bad idea, no matter what. But how much detail you need, depends on the type of story you're writing.

If the story was involving forensic pathology, I'd definately want the details, and I'll call BS on a writer who tries to fudge his way through it. Even if I don't have that much knowledge of the details, I have a pretty good BS meter. ;)

OTOH, something like what I'm writing, doesn't need -THAT- kind of detail. If I were to do that, it would be nothing more than "showing off".

[Torin]

The Anatomy Coloring Book is also an extremely useful tool. I use it all the time to explain to clients what's going on in their body, which muscles are probably causing the problem. And it's a LOT cheaper than Gray's. LOL.

Torin

[MacAllister]

I have a copy of Grays left over from Art school. Couldn't write without it, sometimes.

Who knew that art degree would be so handy for a writer? :)

[BradyH1861]

On a somewhat(?) related note: While chokes do not work on fire, a fire ax serves just fine as a search warrant.

Indeed they do. In fact, this reminds me of a humorous incident. I will include it here because folks might get a laugh out of it. We were dispatched to an automatic alarm in an office building around 2 am one morning. (this was before we got notch boxes to get into buildings) Anyway, there were no outward signs of smoke or fire, and the sprinklers had not activated, so I made the decision to have dispatch go ahead and call the key holder to come out and let us into the building to reset the alarm. She shows up about 20 minutes later....a young lady in a corvette. I tell her "Ma'am, I'm going to need you to unlock the building for us so we can go in and reset your alarm." Her response shocked me. "Do you have a warrant?" I had to ask her to repeat what she said. I couldn't believe it! I actually argued with the lady for five minutes about how I didn't need one, public safety, etc. Finally I had enough and went over to the truck and grabbed the axe and halligan bar. "These are my warrants," I declared. I gave her one last chance but she still wouldn't budge. We took the doors down. About a month later we got the lawsuit. It was tossed out of court, naturally, but I tried to be nice. I COULD have charged her with interfering with a fire department official.

So yes, I have used the "fireman's warrant" before!

Brady H.

[Spookster]

What a ninny. When FD responds to my house, I offer them iced tea. They always decline. I've bought coffee for ER nurses, too. I like to know they're on a caffine buzz at 3 am.

[BradyH1861]

What a ninny. When FD responds to my house, I offer them iced tea.

Do they do that a lot, hun? There is an elderly couple in our district who had a house fire around Thanksgiving three years ago. They still bring us cookies about once a month or so. Nice people. We were at one guy's house one night and he offered me a joint.....I declined.

Brady H.

[katiemac]

They still bring us cookies about once a month or so. Nice people. We were at one guy's house one night and he offered me a joint.....I declined.


Cookies? How nice!

Joint? Uh.... interesting... choice? :Wha:

[Spookster]

Originally posted by BradyH
Do they do that a lot, hun?

Yeah. My MIL (mom-in-law) has been increasingly ill for the past two years. Hubby and I were primary care-givers until we moved her by SIL in January. (We had to place her in a nursing/rehab ctr. and couldn't find anything close to us.) It's sad when you know half the FD/Medics/ER staff. It's even sadder when they recognise you.

[BradyH1861]

Yeah. My MIL (mom-in-law) has been increasingly ill for the past two years. Hubby and I were primary care-givers until we moved her by SIL in January. (We had to place her in a nursing/rehab ctr. and couldn't find anything close to us.) It's sad when you know half the FD/Medics/ER staff. It's even sadder when they recognise you.

Sorry to hear that. Yes, that is kind of sad! We have a few "frequent fliers" in our district. Even our dispatchers recognize their voices now too. So we sometimes hear "Engine One, Medic Three, unknown medical problem at Mrs. XXX's house. You know the drill."

Of course, there was the time we were dispatched to "a seventy year old male with rectal bleeding."

Brady H.,

[Spookster]

Most of our calls have been due to her COPD with severe URI. The hardest one on me was last Sept. They released MIL from the hosp. even after nearly an hour of my trying to roughhouse the Drs. into keeping her. They released her severely altered, bed-ridden, with MRSA, and a URI on Thurs. Less than 24 hrs. later, I had to call EMS for transport back to the hosp. Now, as I stated, this was the norm. But, she was really bad off and while I was explaining to the medics (different response team) that she wasn't a demensia patient, I lost it. I started crying, which I've never done before. The lead medic was so kind to me. He told me it was going to be okay, they'd take care of her. I said I knew they would. They're such a great bunch.

I was crying because I let the hosp. release her, even though I knew she was sick. Really, really sick. Hosp. dispoed her because she'd maxed out her ins. dates. It became a game, really. Call out EMS, sit in ER for six/eight hours, admit for three weeks, dispo, start again.

Oh, after over a year of this game, multiple Drs. and an uncanny amount of time spent in hospitals, we have discovered part of the problem is Hashimoto's. She crashed back in Jan. BS was at 14, hypothermic (temp at 87 for min. 2 hrs). Man that was a fun three days in ICU.

[Spookster]

Well, since I got the thread off track, I figured I should get it back on. I found this great Human anatomy site, and thought it may be useful:

http://www.innerbody.com/

[BradyH1861]

Well, since I got the thread off track, I figured I should get it back on. I found this great Human anatomy site, and thought it may be useful:

http://www.innerbody.com/

I know a similar website with a similar URL that also is great for anatomy! But I think it best if I not post it here. And of course, I've only heard about that site...I've never actually seen it.

I will be quiet now.

Brady H.

[jdkiggins]

Well, since I got the thread off track, I figured I should get it back on. I found this great Human anatomy site, and thought it may be useful:

http://www.innerbody.com/

Spookster,
I'll check this out. Thanks for the link.
Joanne

[NeuroFizz]

A quick question for Liam:

You said the go-rilla was shot above the eye and it severed the vagus nerve? Was it a downward trajectory? The vagus nerves originate from the brainstem (Medulla Oblongata) and head downward. The massive shutdown you describe would not likely come from vagal damage, but from massive damage on the way down there. Sounds like he was charging head down, like a bull, rather than like a gorilla.

[NeuroFizz]

Sorry for the extra entry, but this whole anatomy thing is great, but please, please, extend it to physiology as well. I am so tired of seeing (in film) and reading about someone urinating when scared. Hands up all those who've wet themselves when startled. The autonomic nervous system and urinary bladder are not meant to work that way. Under sympathetic control, the general musculature of the bladder relaxes while the spincter at the junction of the bladder and urethra constricts. Tough to pee this way unless the person has a problem with incontinence.

Another peeve. When a person is hit on the head hard enough to lose consciousness, there is no way he/she is going to get up and do something heroic. That person is going to be a very sick person. If there ever was a place where medical personnel would "patch 'em up and send 'em back in," it's pro football, and when there is a concussion with loss of consciousness, that player is done for that day and for (at least) several days afterward.

I have more, but these are the two most annoying. Anyone else want to chime in on appropriate/inappropriate physiological responses?

[Liam Jackson]

A quick question for Liam:

You said the go-rilla was shot above the eye and it severed the vagus nerve? Was it a downward trajectory? The vagus nerves originate from the brainstem (Medulla Oblongata) and head downward. The massive shutdown you describe would not likely come from vagal damage, but from massive damage on the way down there. Sounds like he was charging head down, like a bull, rather than like a gorilla.

Nope, I didnt say the shot severed the Vagus or Vegas. I said he was shot above the eye. but managed to get up. After they all went back down in a heap, he died. Autopsy merely says he died from cardiac arrest, likley induced by trauma to the "V" nerve. The theory being someone stabbed him in the neck with a small, sharp instrument while in the pile up. That's a pretty target area anyway, as the carotid sheath is located beneath the jawline (enclosing the carotid artery, internal jugular vein, and vagus nerve). Chances are, the stabber was shooting for the carotid and actually came pretty close. There was no other cranial damage aside from minimal hydroshock to the right frontal lobe from the shot.

The .45 couldnt finish him off, but a pen knife or something similar did. Back in the day, several people died from a particular lateral restraint applied over the Vagus. The Vegas sends a really nasty message to the brain when it's compressed. Apparently, the puncture wound and subsequent injury was more than enough in go-rillas case.

The original post was intended as an anecdotal reference as to why neck wounds are risky buisness.

By the way, Welcome to the horror house!

LJ

[arrowqueen]

A good practical way to learn the basics of anatomy is to take a Red Cross First Aid course - with the added bonus of being able to save the odd life, in between bumping off your characters.

[ScottAJohnson]

Another good resource is the book "Howdunnnit." It's a detailed description of police procedure, from the innitial on-scene arrival through the autopsy. There are also sections on specific crimes, weapons, profiling perpitrators, etc.
Incidentally, one of my Karate instructors trains with a group of Philipino stick and knife fighters called "The Dog Brothers." I agree...Guns may be the only options against these guys.

[Spookster]

Here's a link that popped up when I googled "Howdunnit".
http://www.poewar.com/

[ScottAJohnson]

Apologies...The actual title is "Howdunit: How crimes are Committed and Solved."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582970157/qid=1114263261/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-6478020-4166226?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's that extra "n" that gets me every time... :o

[NeuroFizz]

A note to Liam,

Thank you for the clarification, and the welcome. For the others, if anyone intends to use it, it's vagus nerve, not vegas, and there are a pair of them, with slightly different end-organ influences. And, Liam is right on the anatomy. I just want to further his point a little as a general statement. In the lower neck, as in most other areas of the body, the nerves and arteries are positioned very deep, frequently near structures that provide some protection. They are not all that easy to hit (many wrist slashers have numerous scars to drive home this point). That's because the arterial system is the high pressure system and damage will cause a much faster bleed. The veins are more superficial--they also have much lower pressure, so damage will produce a slower bleed. The exceptions are where the arteries have to cross joints or where they go to other body parts, so the carotid arteries are more exposed near the jawline as they pass into the head. To the very original question in this thread, if you want a drawn out death, go for a venous bleed, not an arterial one. No squirting, just a constant ooze.

On the subject of books, please don't just go for anatomy. Look for an old edition of a college Human and Anatomy and Physiology text. The new editions are expensive. New editions come out about every three years, so you should be able to get an old one. By the way, for anyone unfamiliar with the world of college texts, the high prices and three-year rule for new editions is due to the used book market. As authors, we can probably appreciate the rule. The projected sales of a new text declines over three years due to the used book sales so by the fourth year, the book sales will not make up for the associated costs. In the used book situation, none of the profits go the author or the publisher. Sorry for the side road. Nearly every major publisher has at least one Human Anatomy and Physiology text in production. I don't know if they'd give up old editions, or if they destroy them, but an inquiry wouldn't hurt. You may be able to get old editions for the cheap on Amazon.com--I haven't checked.

Remember your physiology as well as your anatomy.

Cheers to all, and happy slicing (on the page, of course).

[Liam Jackson]

I saw your post in another thread (I think it was your post) about Hollywood's penchant for choosing pop-n-sizzle over accuracy in certain scenes. It used to drive me nuts. Over time, I've manged to reconcil my problems with those scenes to a degree. Still, the occassional gross offender pops up. This morning I was watching 70's flick in which a ghetto patrol takes back a neighborhood from drug dealers. One of the good guys uses what appears to be an old .22 cal Savage repeater. He shoots a bad guy and blows him across two rooms and out a second story window.

There are so many scenes that transgress, it's almost impossible to list them all. But Hollywood keeps making the pictures and people keep buying the tickets. Whaddya' do?

[Jamesaritchie]

Greetings, Brady! I was just thinking this morning that you should check in on this issue.

As for gunshot wounds, those jokers hurt like a *****! But we can discuss and compare notes if you like. Meanwhile, glad to see you in the Horror forum.



I've been shot twice, once in the calf, and once in the upper thigh. Gunshot wounds do hurt like a ***********, but not always when they first happen. If the adrenalin is really pumping an you're scared unto death and in screaming crazy mode, you may not even know you've been hit.

When I was shot in the calf, the bullet passed straight through, and the only way I knew I'd been hit was because the force of the bullet knocked my leg sideways and tripped me. Actually, I still didn't know I'd been shot, I just knew something knocked my leg sideways. I stayed down maybe a quarter of a second and then I was up and running for cover again.

Bullets were flying everywhere from both sides. . . semi-major firefight going on with a total of about thirty submachine guns and assault rifles. It didn't last very long. Everyone on my side was under cover (except for one idiot who decided he needed to get to another position once the pin was pulled. That idiot got shot in the calf.) and had a crossfire ambush set up.

The other side was considerably more numerous, but were caught right out in the open, in a crossfire, at almost point blank range, with no cover and with nowhere to go. I doubt that part of it lasted more than thirty seconds. It was about as close to a slaughter as you can get.

Later, there was enough pain to satisfy anyone. Luckily, the bullet was small caliber and had a full metal jacket, and somehow sliced through without touching much muscle, and no bone, but there was pain and enough blood, it seemed, to fill two men. I can't say it was the worst pain I ever experienced, but it was high enough up there to make me wish I'd stayed put. Except I couldn't.

The worst pain actually came from trying to walk on that leg a few days later.

I talked to one soldier who had been hit nine times under somewhat similar conditions. . .caught in the open, scared to death, raging, running right at the enemy. He said he didn't even know he had been hit until later.

At any rate, there was zero pain until after the adrenalin rush and terror were gone.

[Liam Jackson]

Ack! Broke my own policy of cutting back on the war stories. You folk go ahead. I'm talking notes for future character calamities :)

James, thanks for sharing that. Hope the old wounds don't give you too much trouble these days.

[Spookster]

Hehe. LJ, I love listening to old war stories. Boy, I tell ya what... There are some brave men/women hanging out here. I'm so glad I've been fortunate enough to avoid gun contact to this point. I prefer my trusty machete. Thanks for sharing guys. It's quite an intersting topic. (Though, I'm sure you'd much rather be one of us boring folks with no stories to tell.)

[Fractured_Chaos]

I'm with spookster! Keep the war stories coming!