What's the shortest page-count you would tolerate for a feature length spec script?

[Plot Device]

I recently submitted a script for a Blair Witch style mockumentary horror. It was only 75 pages long. I have NEVER written anything that short before. (It was so weird to be at the other end of the page-count spectrum for a change!)

Is that TOO short?

And yet, considering the genre, would that actually be better than 80 or 90 pages?

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::ETA::


I just checked IMDB and Blair Witch was 86 minutes (including credits) and Cloverfield was 85 minutes (including credits). So ...... maybe I'm in the right ball park for the genre??

[odocoileus]

90 pages.

Anything shorter may spark worries that there's not enough material.

That said, the difference between 86 and 90 is more a matter of perception.The page a minute rule is only a rough guide. 86 pages could easily time out to a hundred minutes on screen.

From a perception standpoint, though, 90- 100 pages is better.

[icerose]

Horror seems to be the exception actually. If you look at a lot of even the big horror films, few are above 90 minutes. Most fall in a comfortable 65-80 minutes. I know, I've been doing a ton of research when it comes to horror.

[odocoileus]

What's the page count on the horror scripts you've been reading? I'll have to check on the page counts of recent horror movies. Right off hand, I can't think of any that came in under 90, but there may very well be some.

Running time is one thing, page count another. They're only loosely related.

I should have elaborated in my earlier post. Since the expectation, industry wide, for page count is 90 minimum, you won't be penalized for using the full 90. This gives you that much more space to add more suspense, scarier description, more suspenseful setups, extra plot twists, humor. Or more space to start earlier in the story than you would have.

Since the extra pages don't cost you anything, and their absence may raise a red flag, you might as well fill them up with something fun and interesting. A good writer can always find a way to add in more compelling events and details.

[zeprosnepsid]

90 is obviously the 'rule'. I'd probably find something as short as 80 to be acceptable. But 75 is probably too short.

I just finished a script that was 80 and I wanted it to be a respectable 90, and going through it, I actually found several places I could elaborate that enhanced the script instead of just padding it.

Maybe you can give it to some readers at it's current length and see what they think is missing and that'll give you some ideas on how to expand.

[Rainy Night]

If I remember right I downloaded the script for the remake of Walking Tall and it seemed like it was only 53 pages.

[icerose]

What's the page count on the horror scripts you've been reading? I'll have to check on the page counts of recent horror movies. Right off hand, I can't think of any that came in under 90, but there may very well be some.

Running time is one thing, page count another. They're only loosely related.

I should have elaborated in my earlier post. Since the expectation, industry wide, for page count is 90 minimum, you won't be penalized for using the full 90. This gives you that much more space to add more suspense, scarier description, more suspenseful setups, extra plot twists, humor. Or more space to start earlier in the story than you would have.

Since the extra pages don't cost you anything, and their absence may raise a red flag, you might as well fill them up with something fun and interesting. A good writer can always find a way to add in more compelling events and details.

I'll get a list, but the recent list of horror movies don't seem to even touch 90 minutes any more.

I haven't looked at the scripts yet, but I'll see if the page length correlates. Some don't even come close to 80.

[dpaterso]

If I remember right I downloaded the script for the remake of Walking Tall and it seemed like it was only 53 pages.
I remember that one, it puzzled me greatly at the time, then someone told me it was a transcript, not the original screenplay.

-Derek

[Rainy Night]

I remember that one, it puzzled me greatly at the time, then someone told me it was a transcript, not the original screenplay.

-Derek

That would make sense, it's been a couple of years - I don't remember it that well, but at the time I thought it was the script.

[NikeeGoddess]

as i recall Phone Booth only had 84 or 85 pages.

[WriteKnight]

75 strikes me as short, particularly by 'industry standard' guidelines. But if you were submitting it to an indy pro-co, they might like the fact that it's that short. Still, you could probably put five more pages in without too much effort, OR padding and be closer to 'standard' length if youre going to shop it around.

[zeprosnepsid]

Yeah, the real question here is not whether a script can be shorter than 90 pages, certainly they can be. The question is more can a spec script be shorter. And in truth, if it's too short, it'll prejudice the reader against taking you seriously.

[odocoileus]

I pasted the HTML copy of Phone Booth into Movie Magic. It came out to 95 pages.

So far, the horror scripts in my collection and on simplyscripts average about a hundred pages. Some more, some less. Can't find anything under 90.

Of course there's the odd script here and there which runs under 90, but most scripts are still 90 and over.

[nmstevens]

I recently submitted a script for a Blair Witch style mockumentary horror. It was only 75 pages long. I have NEVER written anything that short before. (It was so weird to be at the other end of the page-count spectrum for a change!)

Is that TOO short?

And yet, considering the genre, would that actually be better than 80 or 90 pages?

------



::ETA::


I just checked IMDB and Blair Witch was 86 minutes (including credits) and Cloverfield was 85 minutes (including credits). So ...... maybe I'm in the right ball park for the genre??


You should realize that there was no script at all to Blair Witch. It was shot improvisationally and put together in the editing room.

A lot of DTV movies aim for something like eighty minutes and the scripts are on the order of 85 pages.

What you need to realize is that there is a reality beyond that minute per page thing.

The reality is that there is more complicated ratio which you come to understand when you see movies produced.

If you actually take a script of a hundred pages and shoot every single line of every single scene, you end up with a first cut that is pretty much always way, way longer than a hundred minutes. You might very well end up with something that's a hundred fifteen to a hundred and twenty minute.

You then have to go in and start doing the real editing -- cutting out all that stuff that seemed so important when you were writing the script and shooting the movie but now that you have it -- you realize how you don't really need it -- and you end up chopping out those ten or fifteen or twenty -- or maybe even more minutes and get it down to its proper length.

So yes -- you end up with a movie that's a hundred minutes -- but if you were to transcribe it back to script form, you might end up with a script that was only eight-five pages.

But we want those extra pages. We want those extra scenes. They're necessary. Because until you have actually shot the movie and gotten into the editing room, you don't really know for sure what you need and what you don't.

The worst scenario in the world is to write eighty pages, shoot eighty pages, get in the editing room and realize that you have to use every single thing you've shot -- you have no flexibility at all in terms of cutting out material that doesn't play well or that screws up the pacing or whatever.

They want that extra length. It's part of the process.

So don't assume that because the final cut of Cloverfield, or these other horror movies is 85 minutes, that they were derived from 85 page, or 90 page screenplays.

And unless I was aiming for a sixty-five to seventy minute feature (which, I have to tell you, is way too short), I'd never write a seventy-five page screenplay.

Unless I had been given that page count as an assignment, I would consider 90 pages as the absolute minimum for a spec feature.

A hundred to a hundred and ten, irrespective of the genre, you really can't go wrong.

Whoever is reading it (who, if they're anything like me, will flip to the end to see how many pages it is before they start reading) will react with a little, "hmph" if it's under a hundred or over a hundred and fifteen.

NMS

[icerose]

That's good to know NMS. I'll be sure to make certain my horror is above 80. I just gotta figure out what twists to throw at them to make it happen...that's the hard part.

[LIVIN]

I suppose the perception would be that it's easier to cut some pages than to add some pages.

[kullervo]

The usual problem with the too-short script is the problem I've seen in half of first-time scripts. That is that, structurally, the script is only half the story. What is the end of the script should be the middle of the script.

[icerose]

The usual problem with the too-short script is the problem I've seen in half of first-time scripts. That is that, structurally, the script is only half the story. What is the end of the script should be the middle of the script.

Or they are missing a first or second act. Done that myself a few times.

[Plot Device]

My Act 1 seems a tad too long to me (ends around page 33). And then I pick up the pace greatly in Act 2 (Act 2 is a tad short, really). And then Act 3 is just about perfect.


I'm not sure how to lengthen Act 2 without making it come across as obvious padding. There is a brisk pace going on here. I'd hate to kill the briskness and bog it down.

I guess I need to concoct one more "problem" or "puzzle" for my main protags to struggle through. That's 15 while minutes. (or one whole "mini-movie").

[Tig]

I just recently finished one coming in at 85 pages. So I decided to check and see what was the shortest winner at The Nicholl Fellowship was and it came up to be 85 pages. But I generally like to come in around 100.

[icerose]

My Act 1 seems a tad too long to me (ends around page 33). And then I pick up the pace greatly in Act 2 (Act 2 is a tad short, really). And then Act 3 is just about perfect.


I'm not sure how to lengthen Act 2 without making it come across as obvious padding. There is a brisk pace going on here. I'd hate to kill the briskness and bog it down.

I guess I need to concoct one more "problem" or "puzzle" for my main protags to struggle through. That's 15 while minutes. (or one whole "mini-movie").

That's my problem. The acts are pretty balanced but it's a pretty fast-paced gripping horror, without people doing stupid things, just people doing real things.

[Madbandit]

After writing a sci-fi/horror spec script that's 86 pages, I feel a short movie script should be up to 90 pages but not less than 80.

[Ginosion]

Actually, if you remember, Lord of the Rings was only 10 pages long. Peter Jackson just wrote "2 hour long running scene" underneath each line of dialog.

[Madbandit]

Actually, if you remember, Lord of the Rings was only 10 pages long. Peter Jackson just wrote "2 hour long running scene" underneath each line of dialog.

:roll::roll::roll:

[aceinc1]

I had told ya guys I has written an outline then directly shot it to a movie. well, I was expecting it to run 70 minutes only. it ran 110 minutes.

I have read Roger Corman's "how I made hundred movies in Hollywood and never lost a dime". his average movies were in the range of 65-80 pages. he made a career out of horror+soft porn. so yeah, 75 is acceptable for most low budget producers.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

[nmstevens]

I had told ya guys I has written an outline then directly shot it to a movie. well, I was expecting it to run 70 minutes only. it ran 110 minutes.

I have read Roger Corman's "how I made hundred movies in Hollywood and never lost a dime". his average movies were in the range of 65-80 pages. he made a career out of horror+soft porn. so yeah, 75 is acceptable for most low budget producers.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

When Corman was making these movies, for the most part they were featured in double bills and were generally much shorter than feature films or feature scripts today.

In the same token, the eighty to eighty-five page scripts that I was dealing with were intended for direct-to-video release and were intended to be that short.

But 75 pages would have been considered too short even for a DTV movie. I mean, soft porn scripts (things like Petticoat Planet) paged in at something like forty to fifty pages -- because they had a lot of those soft-core porn scenes that took up a lot of screen time but which obviously didn't take up much in the way of page count.

But soft-porn excluded, you were still talking 80-85 pages -- for a DTV movie.

But unless you're aiming to write for that market (and if you are, you're aiming pretty low these days) I think you've really got to aim for around a hundred pages.

A hundred to a hundred and fifteen pages is the target.

A hundred to a hundred and five is really ideal.

NMS

[Jon-Luke]

The reason scripts are formatted the way they are with the specific font requirement and font size is because general understanding is that one page of the script should take up approximately one minute of screen time. This is a gross generalization because obviously this depends a lot on how the director shoots certain scenes. But its a general rule and an average that seems to work well enough for producers to still use this yard stick after years and years of using this method (I know that the format has been around since the 1950's I'm not sure exactly when it was decided on).

So taking this into account a producer will look at a 75 page script and think that he will get a 75 min movie and that's just not long enough. If you look at the length of the average movie its somewhere between 83 and 95 minutes some go a lot longer but it rare to find anything below 80 mins (I can't think of any).

So I would say you would need another 5-7 pages at least.
Hey at the end just when you thought they were safe, another 5 mins of unexpected danger and then finally real safety... or are they...

[GigiZ]

What about Final Draft's option of of "normal" "tight" and "loose," length?
My second draft is 91 pages long under normal but when I tried the loose option it was 96! It's a big difference if you're bordering on too short or too long.
I wonder if anyone notices that stuff when they read a pdf or a copy. By juts looking at the page I mean.

[kullervo]

Yes, someone who reads a lot of scripts notices. They also know what the real page count is. They can tell the number of pages in a script by picking it up. Don't play games.

[dpaterso]

What about Final Draft's option of of "normal" "tight" and "loose," length?
My second draft is 91 pages long under normal but when I tried the loose option it was 96! It's a big difference if you're bordering on too short or too long.
I wonder if anyone notices that stuff when they read a pdf or a copy. By juts looking at the page I mean.
This got posted over on the Done Deal board last month and caused some hilarity, alas there's no link so I can't verify if it's true, so make your own mind up:

(RSS)

From the Hollywood Informer:

"In local Hollywood news, spec scribe Gary Prince of San Marino became irate when he was informed that his spec "Apatowian" Teen Comedy - RIGHTEOUS, about several teens vying to be high school hall guardians was rejected because his first page was too long.

"It's one page," Gary said, fuming and as he continued to try and get connected to the general voicemail box to leave a message for his "agent" Gemma Kranz of the Catch 23 agency. who has been unavailable for comment.

Prince indicated he was informed of his rejection via an email that he described as being sent from the email address [removed]. Quoting his email: "Hey Gary, While we love the idea for Righteous, your first page is too long." End of email.

A frustrated Gary Prince complained "I was just trying to set up the milieu, and nail a really awesome visual "sex joke." Gary sighed. "It's my sixth draft. I don't know what I can do with this feedback." He also added that he used Final Draft's "somewhat, but not too noticeably tight" line spacing option and speculated that "that can't be it."

After repeated calls and getting a voicemail menu that did not give a direct option for leaving a message for a Gemma Kranz, Gary said he feels 'disappointed' As a counter offer, Gary stated he'd offer re-submitting his script using Final Draft's "Normal" line spacing option "but wasn't sure if that would make a difference." Ultimately Gary wonders if he's a victim of some kind of new paradigm of screenplay structure that has swept Hollywood or if they just didn't like his script."

-Derek

[NikeeGoddess]

i know i've said in the past that people shouldn't use the cheating methods even when offered by standard scriptwriting software like FD. but people still fight for it like it's a god given right and/or only solution to their problem.