New blog: "Confessions of a Competition Winner"

[MrJayVee]

From my blog...

http://theworkingscreenwriter.blogspot.com/2008/05/confessions-of-competition-winner_12.html

[odocoileus]

I've never really understood the value of the smaller contests.

I can sort of see the value of local constests when you have a local connection. If it's a Montana focused contest, associated with an established local organization, and you're in Montana, why not?

In your blog, you recommended film festivals as good places to make connections. I hadn't really thought about it before, but it makes sense.

Having one or several good short films to enter into a festival would probably be the best way to go, though just volunteering at one the bigger festivals could be a good way to meet the right people.

[NikeeGoddess]

that's like saying, if you want to become an olympic athlete then you shouldn't bother competing in any race except the olympic trials.

participating in the other races/meets or competitions will not get you anything... especially not a gold medal.


anyhoo - i find it hard to believe that the expo has 60 or 70 production companies and agents taking pitches but none of them have heard of the expo screenwriting competition.

[WriteKnight]

There are no guarantees anywhere, not with a contest, not with an agent, not with an option, not with a 'sale' - (no guarantee of production)

I think the key is understanding what each contest represents. "mom&pops garage screenplay' contest is not going to net you any exposure, certainly compared to Nicholls. But if the two dollar trophy helps you keep your butt in the chair to work on your next big opus - then sure its 'worth' something.

That - I think - is the gist of the interview. Understand GOING IN what the competition realistically means to you AND the industry. Maybe it's just the motivation of a deadline to get a script FINISHED. Okay, great it 'works'. Maybe its a chance to network and make connections with producers and distributors (like my recent award at Worldfest) yeah, that was worth the entry fee, and the really nice dinner and plaque. I made some important connections. (A distributor in NYC).

Certainly, if you can't 'afford' to enter the contests - then don't spend the money. Or at least, spend it judiciously on those that represent the greatest possible 'return'.

But there's also no question that one cannot rest on the 'laurels' of ANY award, whether its a Nicholls or "UncleBobsFilmFest". The award is just another tool to help market your skills.

I want a full toolkit when I pitch and take meetings. What does that look like to me? More than one script - more than one genre - more than one award.

Lorelei's experience is not unlike my own. I can understand her reluctance to continue the struggle. How long can you keep banging your head against a wall?

But I have a sneaky suspicion, that she'll be back - that she'll keep writing screenplays, and sending them out. Because you don't reach that level of frustration because you're NOT good. You reach it because you ARE that good, and haven't found the right doorway.

[odocoileus]

that's like saying, if you want to become an olympic athlete then you shouldn't bother competing in any race except the olympic trials.

participating in the other races/meets or competitions will not get you anything... especially not a gold medal.



Weak analogy.

Track and field competitions give measurable, objective results. A ten five hundred meters is same performance, taking altitude and wind resistance into account, wherever and whenever it happens.

OTOH, a judgement on a script made by anyone other than a potential buyer or people networked with potential buyers isn't substantially meaningful.

I just can't think of any showrunners, execs, or agents who would be impressed by a victory in the Greater Tuna Scriptathon.

One question worth asking is, How many skilled, experienced readers are available to judge these contests? Is a lot of the initial reading work being farmed out to personal assistants? Dog walkers? Nannies? College kids who crank out the evals at twenty bucks a pop?

[NikeeGoddess]

Weak analogy.you may think so but athletes know that the actual striving for the greatest competition takes lots of practice competing in lesser forums. they don't start out being the best. they improve gradually as the competition gets tougher. that's my real point. who thinks they could work, work, work for years playing basketball and never participating until the one day when they can compete with michael jordan?!

i understand the point of the blog and interview. but i like to think outside the box. it's not wrong. just different.

the practice of improving your writing can be measured over the years of entering contest if you start out no where and the next year you make it to the quarter finals and the next year the semi finals, etc... i'm not suggesting this is the best way to achieve your goals but it is one way.
also
it can be difficult for spec writers, who write with no rewards, to set goals for completion dates and/or rewrite dates based on the due date to enter a competition. otherwise you could be writing for years with no end date goals.

[kullervo]

No, I really won't be back.

:flag:

[zeprosnepsid]

I feel like I just wrote this same post but -- you need to take every contest on it's own. I recommend looking at the judges instead of the prizes. See if there are agents or producers on the panel. Then if you win, you know your script got read by an agent or a producer. Nothing may come of it, but you could go years without getting your work looked at by an agent or a producer.

And I've mentioned this about a hundred times, but the lady who wrote Eastwood's Iwo Jima movie got an agent after winning a no name contest where the agent was a judge.

Further, if a contest is associated with a well known film festival (like Austin), it'll look more impressive because people have heard of it. So yeah, you need to look at things other than prize amount or prestige as voted on by internet users. Think of recognizability by people who don't follow these things that closely. I think 'Miami Film Festival' is actually going to look better than 'Screenwriting Expo' despite the later being a bigger prize and more respected amongst screenwriters. You're not submitting to screenwriters.

I do think contests are helpful though. You just have to put some thought into it.

[odocoileus]

Eastwood's Iwo Jima movie got an agent after winning a no name contest where the agent was a judge.

Wasn't she a UCLA Extension student? Or am I mixing her up w/ someone else?

If she was an Extension student and the contest was the sponsored by the school, I'd count it as a locally connected contest.

I consider the big contests to be Nicholl, Austin, Disney, and Expo.

For TV, Warner Bros, and the various network diversity programs.

On Scriptapalooza and Slamdance I have my doubts, but I've heard some people having opportunities open up after winning. Slamdance fits into the "affiliated with a festival category" so it may be useful esp if you also make films.

If you have a good reason to apply for one of the other ones, then by all means, have at it. I can definitely see the value in applying to a contest affiliated with a film festival. If you're going to be there anyway, for networking purposes, or because it's near you, why not send in a script?

Again, if you're already a member of, say, the Scriptwriters Network, it makes sense to enter one of their contests.

[NikeeGoddess]

No, I really won't be back.too bad. yeah, you've had a bad experience but we've asked you specific questions about your post-win marketing (in the other thread) and you never answered them.
ie - why would you put this on the front page of your website? She is unrepresented, unsold, and unproduced.

it also defeats our enthusiasm to hear over and over again that no matter what we do... blah, blah, blah! so, don't take it so hard when we'd rather hear from fellow screenwriters who offer more positive advice.

[nmstevens]

too bad. yeah, you've had a bad experience but we've asked you specific questions about your post-win marketing (in the other thread) and you never answered them.
ie - why would you put this on the front page of your website?

it also defeats our enthusiasm to hear over and over again that no matter what we do... blah, blah, blah! so, don't take it so hard when we'd rather hear from fellow screenwriters who offer more positive advice.

I don't think that Kullervo or anyone else has said that "no matter what you do --" if by "no matter what you do --" you mean that "no matter what you do you can't break in or you can't succeed."

She hasn't said it and neither have I, even though I'd certainly classify myself as one of the more hard-headed voices of reality around here.

So maybe, at least speaking for myself, I should make my position clear, if I haven't already.

I don't particularly feel that it's my role in life or my place here to be "encouraging."

I think that it's much more useful to provide accurate information. If that accurate information may tend to discourage some people, that's not my fault.

Blame the information.

It's a highly competitive field, comparable to professional sports -- an analogy that you yourself have made.

Well, it's not saying anything controversial to make the point that, for any pro sport, the percentage of those who want to be pro players is very large compared to those who end being pro players.

Most who start out with big dreams will never achieve them. Some simply lack the talent. Many may have the potential but fail to do what they need to do to properly develop that talent.

Even among those that succeed and become pros, only a very few will become star players.

And so, for those of us who've been playing pro for some time, when we hear somebody say, "I've about to finish playing my first game of basketball -- but you know, I've been watching others play for years, and I've read lots of books about it -- so does anybody here have the telephone number of the Knicks, because I think I'm ready to be signed" -- there are those of us here who would like to toss a big cold bucket of reality on the heads of people who think that way.

And if that makes us spoil sports who are out to discourage people and tell them that there's no way that they'll ever succeed -- that's not the way it is.

The fact is, for people who bring that kind of fundamentally unrealistic view of the world to their pursuits, chances are they won't succeed -- not at getting into the Knicks, or at selling their screenplays.

Everything that Kullervo and I and the the rest of us are trying to say is that when the odds are long, you have to take steps to maximize your chances.

Even at best, the odds are long -- so don't do things likely to make the long odds even longer.

NMS

[kullervo]

What he said.

I say on my website that I am unsold, unrepresented, and unproduced because it is the truth and I believe in full disclosure from anyone offering advice about writing, especially screenwriting.

I do not set out to be discouraging, but my story can certainly be read as discouraging. But it is true. I left my home on Kauai, moved to Los Angeles, got an MFA in screenwriting from UCLA, wrote twenty-two scripts, won six contests with four of them, had two managers and an agent, met lots and lots of people, and failed. 100%, flat-out failed.

Why do I want to tell people that? Because I lost nine years living on Kauai, ten years writing novels, and something like $350,000 in rent, tuition, and living expenses.

Sometimes your worst, most pessimistic dreams do come true.

[CDarklock]

OTOH, a judgement on a script made by anyone other than a potential buyer or people networked with potential buyers isn't substantially meaningful.

Sure it is. You went to the mountain. Who cares whether it was the big mountain or a little one? Lots of people never go to the mountain at all.

Entering a contest is less about prestige than it is about getting your own motivations in order, so you can walk up to people you don't know and put your heart and soul into their hands.

[mario_c]

Wasn't she a UCLA Extension student? Or am I mixing her up w/ someone else?

If she was an Extension student and the contest was the sponsored by the school, I'd count it as a locally connected contest.

I consider the big contests to be Nicholl, Austin, Disney, and Expo.

For TV, Warner Bros, and the various network diversity programs.

On Scriptapalooza and Slamdance I have my doubts, but I've heard some people having opportunities open up after winning. Slamdance fits into the "affiliated with a festival category" so it may be useful esp if you also make films.

If you have a good reason to apply for one of the other ones, then by all means, have at it. I can definitely see the value in applying to a contest affiliated with a film festival. If you're going to be there anyway, for networking purposes, or because it's near you, why not send in a script?

Again, if you're already a member of, say, the Scriptwriters Network, it makes sense to enter one of their contests.Slamdance? It's been around for years and quite a few movies were discovered there. I would add Zoetrope and ASA/Gotham to that list of serious players. I don't know where Final Draft or Page stand, and I know the Script PIMP is pretty controversial still.
The little contests are tough, kind of the "chitlin circuit" of filmmaking. But don't rule it out. You never know who might be there with you in Oshkosh or Grand Rapids, or who gets into that eMail group when you place. I was one of 70 finalists in the Beverly Hills Film Fest, and we all started eMailing each other. I have a full folder of connections now, links and eMails and a few phone numbers too. Not a bad return on my $30 investment.
I spent $500 last year on contests, and might beat that this year. That's seven days take home pay, for the right to say "I tried. I gave it 100 percent."

[NikeeGoddess]

I say on my website that I am unsold, unrepresented, and unproduced because it is the truth and I believe in full disclosure from anyone offering advice about writing, especially screenwriting.my bad. i thought your website was a marketing tool, promoting yourself where a potential buyer could look you up and see what you're about... not some advice page. but i must say some days i wake up with bad breath. yes, it is the truth but i surely wouldn't put it on my website.

got an MFA in screenwriting from UCLA, wrote twenty-two scripts, won six contests with four of them, had two managers and an agent, met lots and lots of people, and failed. 100%, flat-out failed.yeah, you are a loser. some people who haven't fully realized their dreams of success see their world as half full and other half empty... and then there's you who sees the world as 100% flat-out empty.

anyhoo - i thought you said you wouldn't be back. it is hard when people don't want to listen to you, isn't it. the truth is we do but we also want to listen to the people who have success stories. fortunately for magazines like creative screenwriting and script, or bill martell's website, etc... we outsiders know that success can happen to some people. if we ONLY listened to you then we wouldn't bother. give us some respect for needed to see the positives as well as the negatives. and stop crying, "listen to me or i'll walk away and never come back." - yeah, my words but that's how it came out.

[kullervo]

Um, I said I wouldn't be back to screenwriting, not AW. And I don't believe I told anyone to listen only to me, which would be impossible anyway. In fact, I specifically invite people who wish to ignore the memento mori to seek out the all-good-news-all-the-time sites out there. There certainly are plenty of them.

[WriteKnight]

Loerlei -Quick hypothetical.

Assume your new novel is a smashing success. (May it be so!) Hollywood wants to make it into a film.

They ask you to write the screenplay.

What do you do?

[kullervo]

I know exactly what they would have to change to make it into a movie, and it would be terrible. No risk with this book!

[Stealth66]

I don't mind the truth when it comes to this whole screenwriting madness. I've read Kullervo's site, I've read the article on Two Adverbs about throwing in the towel and how damn near impossible it is to break in to the business. I've soaked in the information and have thought carefully about it.

It hasn't scared me away. I will continue working on my scripts until they're polished, and then move on from there. I actually enjoy writing the damn things and learning how to make them better every day that I do.

What Kullervo's website, NMS's posts, and the Two Adverbs article do is keep me realistic. It keeps me from focusing on screenwriting to the exclusion of everything else, whether it be school, family, or working towards a new career in the future.

With that said, however, I don't want to skim through negative post after negative post, either. That gets old really fast. Balance is key, I think.

If worse comes to worse, there's always the ignore function ;)

[zeprosnepsid]

Wasn't she a UCLA Extension student? Or am I mixing her up w/ someone else?

If she was an Extension student and the contest was the sponsored by the school, I'd count it as a locally connected contest.

It was Big Bear Lake Screenwriting Competition. No kidding. She talks about it on an old Creative Screenwriting Podcast, they're all free and probably available on the website somewhere.

Oh, here's an article: http://www.writerswrite.com/wblog.php?wblog=303071

So I feel like for every story like K's, there's a story like this. Well, maybe for every 100 stories like K's. While I think it's good to be realistic, I think you also need hope to fuel you to keep going.

But that's why I say you should really look at the judges for a contest. Because getting your script read by agents and producers is more important than prize money.

[nmstevens]

my bad. i thought your website was a marketing tool, promoting yourself where a potential buyer could look you up and see what you're about... not some advice page. but i must say some days i wake up with bad breath. yes, it is the truth but i surely wouldn't put it on my website.

yeah, you are a loser. some people who haven't fully realized their dreams of success see their world as half full and other half empty... and then there's you who sees the world as 100% flat-out empty.

anyhoo - i thought you said you wouldn't be back. it is hard when people don't want to listen to you, isn't it. the truth is we do but we also want to listen to the people who have success stories. fortunately for magazines like creative screenwriting and script, or bill martell's website, etc... we outsiders know that success can happen to some people. if we ONLY listened to you then we wouldn't bother. give us some respect for needed to see the positives as well as the negatives. and stop crying, "listen to me or i'll walk away and never come back." - yeah, my words but that's how it came out.

Nike, you should be very careful about the words you toss around because while you might succeed in this business, the day may come -- in fact, it's overwhelmingly likely to come, when you toss in the towel, and you won't like having the word "loser" thrown in your face when and if that day comes.

The fact that someone makes a decision to stop doing something that doesn't work for them -- whether it's pursuing a career, or being in a relationship, or even following a dream, doesn't make them a loser, any more than spending your life pursuing something that has almost no chance of paying off makes you a loser.

Anyone who succeeds at anything will tell you that you can learn as much or more from getting it wrong as you can from getting it right.

And you can also learn from what other people do wrong and do right.

It isn't always necessary for everybody to make the same mistakes personally. You can learn from other people's mistakes and in the process shorten your own odds.

People love to read stories about people writing one script and striking it rich -- because *they* want to be able to write one script and strike it rich.

They love to be able to read stories about someone with no experience and no connections who sent a script off to an agent and got repped and two weeks later had a million dollar sale and now they're writing a script for some big star or some big director - because that's what they want to have happen to them.

Or some story about somebody who got a script to somebody with some screwy stunt and it got read and it got sold.

Sure. All those "once in a blue moon" events make great "stories" and that's why they get published, even if the reality isn't nearly so encouraging.

These stories are about feeding fantasies, not about helping anybody achieve anything.

NMS

[NikeeGoddess]

The fact that someone makes a decision to stop doing something that doesn't work for them
nms - this is what she said. No, I really won't be back. it didn't say she wouldn't be back to screenwriting. i assumed she meant here to the messageboards. it was later that she explained what she meant. if you can't see that, then too bad for your reading comprehension. you're so much more focused on who's right and who's wrong to know what's going on... like my whole point is about BALANCE.

[clockwork]

Nikee, you appear to be the only person who didn't understand what kullervo meant by her 'I won't be back' comments so I'd be careful about insinuating a reading comprehension problem in other members.

I think the debate about truth vs sugar-coating is fine and I'm OK with it continuing but either respect your fellow writer or walk away. Let's see some of that balance you're talking about.

[nmstevens]

nms - this is what she said. it didn't say she wouldn't be back to screenwriting. i assumed she meant here to the messageboards. it was later that she explained what she meant. if you can't see that, then too bad for your reading comprehension. you're so much more focused on who's right and who's wrong to know what's going on... like my whole point is about BALANCE.


Nike, I didn't say anything about what *she* said -- I was talking about what *you* said.

Granting whatever interpretation of her words you might chose, your response, in calling her "a loser" was completely inappropriate.

It amounts to making a personal attack and there is no amount of imbalance in what she's been saying or in the position that she's been taking that is somehow "balanced" by your doing such a thing.

This sort of thing simply does not advance the conversation, whatever you might think.

NMS

[NikeeGoddess]

Nikee, you appear to be the only person who didn't understand what kullervo meant by her 'I won't be back'i definitely was the only one... who responded.

Let's see some of that balance you're talking about.yeah, i like to see mr. jayvee's blog have confessions of a contest winner who didn't call themselves a failure too. but it's his site and he can do whatever he wants with it.

[NikeeGoddess]

Granting whatever interpretation of her words you might chose, your response, in calling her "a loser" was completely inappropriate. you're right. i should have used her words verbatim "100% flat out failure" in stead. my bad. i just found it ironic that someone who's won so many contests would say that about themselves and i totally lost respect. my bad.

[Raghu]

Jim,

I would like to read one of your scripts - where can I find them?

:)

[clockwork]

i definitely was the only one... who responded.

Well, I'm not psychic and I only care about what people actually do post.

yeah, i like to see mr. jayvee's blog have confessions of a contest winner who didn't call themselves a failure too. but it's his site and he can do whatever he wants with it.

Similarly, I only care about what people post here.

[ricetalks]

"Hollywood is the only place where you can die from encouragement."

[WriteKnight]

"I can take the despair... it's the HOPE that's killing me."