Would a sociopath make a good character?

[BlueLucario]

In the SYW forum. (Look for it.) It seemed that my MC came across as a sociopath. She's not exactly a villain, and she's not the type of person who would save the world from great evil, like any cliched superhero would. She would do things to achieve goals of her own. She can be sympathetic, but only to a few who 'deserves' it. She can't empathize with others, she's never loved or been loved. She's never met her parents, and she was raised by someone else to being a sociopath. She never had friends, and had difficulty making any. She'd only kill if there's a justified reason for it. She may be a sociopath, but she's not a cruel person.

I guess I'll stop the lecture here. I just wanted to know if a sociopath would make a good character.

If anyone wants me to explain my post, please let me know.

[Dragonquill]

She doesn't sound like a sociopath, but yes, if you can pull it off, a sociopath would make a great character. The real challenge would be making the character sympathetic. If you can do that -- awesome!

[NeuroFizz]

Earl Drake of Dan J. Marlowe's The Name of the Game is Death (good old-fashioned pulp) is a nasty fellow, but he becomes likeable to the reader because he runs into people who are even nastier (with some good writing to get us into his head).

Jeff Lindasy's Dexter stories feature a mass murderer who really enjoys killing, but he is extremely likeable because (in part) he only murders bad people, and again, the window into his head is so intriguing.

[Kitty Pryde]

Jeff Lindasy's Dexter stories feature a mass murderer who really enjoys killing, but he is extremely likeable because (in part) he only murders bad people, and again, the window into his head is so intriguing.

NeuroFizz makes a great point, that Dexter is great sociopathic main character. Why can we like him? He only kills killers, for one thing, so in that way he is decreasing the overall number of people killed. For another, he didn't just wake up and decide to be a killer, he had a mysterious traumatic experience as a young child that "turned him" into a killer. Besides that, he is amiable and friendly in many situations. To conclude: sociopath, has many charming characteristics--people CAN RELATE to him.

I read the scene with your character. I don't think the problem is that she's a sociopath. I think the trouble is that she's a sociopath AND WE CAN'T RELATE TO HER. If she was rude and condescending and mocking to the old man, that gives us insight into her character and we can start to see why she would do it. If she has to torture an old man in order to, say, save her baby brother from terrorists, that's also sympathetic. But to torture him for no reason into thinking he was dying, we can't see why anyone would do that and so she fails to be sympathetic. Unsympathetic characters don't compel readers to read on.

What can you do to make us care about the character? Once you achieve that, it won't matter how sociopathic she is, readers will want to read on because they are invested in her.

[zegota]

American Psycho? I've not read or seen it, but it's apparently good enough to be well-known.

[Zoombie]

I have to third Dexter. Fantastic book, fantastic T.V show, fantastic idea and fantastic excecution. He's the only serial killer I want to hug.

[maestrowork]

Great sociopaths make for great stories. There are many examples and some have been mentioned (Dexter, American Psycho, Hannibal...)

[Staroffurby]

If you can achieve developing a great sociopath then i would say its a must, they always seem to attract an audience. The problem is making a reader relate and care about the character. I have tried this in the past and i am not ashamed to say i failed, but i had a great time trying.

[jennontheisland]

Who wouldn't like a sociopath?? Much more interesting reading.

[dempsey]

I'm going off the TV/film stuff here, not books.

Part of what makes Bateman (American Psycho) a great character is that he's meant to be a hyperbole of modern man, where instead of hunting physical weaknesses we are reduced to hunting weakness of brand and consumerism, which can cause our primal need to conquer and destroy to manifest itself in strange ways (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1377/1386711076_129999646d.jpg?v=0).

Hannibal (Silence of the Lambs) was great partly in and of himself; he was so far removed from society yet so mild-mannered. What also made him great was what he drew out of Clarice. (What also-also made him great was... I mean, damn that guy sent chills down your spine.)

Dexter (duh?) was a bit different, because he was keenly aware of the fact that he was divorced from society and within him you saw glimpses of a longing to be a part of the human race. Moreover, he channelled his dark needs to socially positive ends, which made it very easy to cheer him on. His relationship with Rita also reveals an emotional vulnerability that makes him a very sympathetic pyschopath.

So it's not just a matter that these guys are sociopaths and therefore great characters. It's the handling of the sociopath that makes it great. And they're all handled in different ways, used for different reasons.

IMHO anyway.

[Jake Barnes]

Tom Ripley.

[BlueLucario]

Hey, i liked psychopaths. and I thought I was crazy for that.

[maestrowork]

Tom Ripley.

Ooh. Now that's one conflicting sociopath.

[hammerklavier]

Great sociopaths make for great stories. There are many examples and some have been mentioned (Dexter, American Psycho, Hannibal...)


Hannibal wasn't a sociopath, he just didn't like Rome.

[Charlie Horse]

I think the question is: "Would a sociopath make a good writer?"

[Toothpaste]

I also worry a bit that you had no intention to actually make your character a sociopath, and now that people are telling you she comes across as one, instead of taking the time and doing the work to correct the impression, you are instead taking the easy way out and going, "Okay cool, now she's a sociopath." Writing a sociopath is just as difficult as writing any other complex character. Just because she is one, doesn't mean she isn't a three dimensional character. Nor that you won't find challenges in writing the character.

Writing a sociopath is not your license to be a lazy writer. Not saying you are, but it is something to be aware about.

[KTC]

I believe Ignatius Riley to be a sociopath. I still think he's one of the most loveable creatures in all of literaturedom.


Hear that, Iggy... you rock, baby!

[CaroGirl]

Toothpaste is referring to the "writing by committee" trap.

Real-life people with personality disorders have very few redeeming qualities (is Ted Bundy's "charm" a redeeming quality?). They're frightening in their disregard of others, lack of empathy, lack of insight and self-centredness.

Fictional characters who are psychopaths or sociopaths (there's a difference) can be complex and intriguing. But it's not easy to pull off.

[DWSTXS]

Great sociopaths make for great stories. There are many examples and some have been mentioned (Dexter, American Psycho, Hannibal...)


exactly! These were all very well written though.

ANY character can become a great character if written well enough.

[BlueLucario]

I also worry a bit that you had no intention to actually make your character a sociopath, and now that people are telling you she comes across as one, instead of taking the time and doing the work to correct the impression, you are instead taking the easy way out and going, "Okay cool, now she's a sociopath." Writing a sociopath is just as difficult as writing any other complex character. Just because she is one, doesn't mean she isn't a three dimensional character. Nor that you won't find challenges in writing the character.

Writing a sociopath is not your license to be a lazy writer. Not saying you are, but it is something to be aware about.

I know my character. I don't intend be a lazy writer. I have an idea of who she is, but I don't know what kind of person she is, I mean I can't describe her in words. If they call people like her sociopaths, then maybe that's what she is.

[DWSTXS]

I know my character. I don't intend be a lazy writer. I have an idea of who she is, but I don't know what kind of person she is, I mean I can't describe her in words. If they call people like her sociopaths, then maybe that's what she is.

If you can't describe her in words, then she's not a charcter, she's an IDEA.
You CAN describe her in words, and you WILL. Don't get hung up on knowing what her persona should be labelled as.

Just write her. She will help you too.

[Melenka]

It can be incredibly difficult to create characters who do bad, bad things but are also engaging and likable - or so fascinating that you don't care how squicked out you are by what they do. Some things are harder to justify than others. Torture, rape, killing of the helpless/innocent/cute animals, pointless abuse, etc. will turn most people off in a way that a bullet to the head will not. Death doesn't bug most of us nearly as much as pain does.

[Toothpaste]

See Blue, the thing is, just because a few people look at your character and see her as a sociopath, doesn't mean they are right. YOU have decide if indeed she is a sociopath. You need to read up on the condition, decide if that was indeed what you are going for. You can't just trust your betas blindly like that. "Well if that's what they call her, then that's what she is." They may think she has sociopathic tendencies, not that she is entirely a sociopath. There are so many variables. In the end, you have to know your character best. You have to understand her.

[CaroGirl]

I know my character. ...but I don't know what kind of person she is, I mean I can't describe her in words.
Okay, so what do you, a WRITER, plan to describe her with then? Kumquats? Words are all we writers have.

[DWSTXS]

Okay, so what do you, a WRITER, plan to describe her with then? Kumquats? Words are all we writers have.

Like I said, if you can't describe her with words, then she is still just an IDEA.

Start writing her, and she will come to life.

[Birol]

I know my character. I don't intend be a lazy writer. I have an idea of who she is, but I don't know what kind of person she is, I mean I can't describe her in words. If they call people like her sociopaths, then maybe that's what she is.

Blue, if you can't describe your character in words, then you have a problem. We're writers. Describing people, places, things, actions, ideas, situations, etc., in words is what we do.

Toothpaste is giving you some very good advice in this thread. You should listen and pay very close attention to what she is saying.

[maestrowork]

You say you know the character -- so what does she do? What does she say? How does she walk and speak and treat others? How do other people react to her? All of those can be described by words and they are characterization.

If you still can't do any of those, then you really don't know your character. You only have an "idea." Now get to work and develop the character.

[KTC]

Before you write the story, blue... write the character. Write pages and page of the character as you see her. Explore her fully until you CAN write her in words. Then take what you learned and use it while you write the story. You have to break through and find the words you need to describe her and make her real. That's your job.

[Haphazard]

See Blue, the thing is, just because a few people look at your character and see her as a sociopath, doesn't mean they are right. YOU have decide if indeed she is a sociopath. You need to read up on the condition, decide if that was indeed what you are going for. You can't just trust your betas blindly like that. "Well if that's what they call her, then that's what she is." They may think she has sociopathic tendencies, not that she is entirely a sociopath. There are so many variables. In the end, you have to know your character best. You have to understand her.

YES.

The fact that you say she can be 'sympathetic' had bells ringing. This character is likely not a sociopath. If you want to turn her into a sociopath, that's fine and dandy, but you'll have to do research.

I've written quite a few characters that could be deemed as 'sociopaths' with a quick glance but weren't, really. Not that sociopaths can't make compelling characters, it's just that you've got to decide whether this character is really a sociopath in the first place.

Or, you can just write the character and forego the labels all together. Some people may deem her a sociopath, but really, she's just herself.

[Danger Jane]

From your description of Lily, I wouldn't call her a sociopath. I would call her flat. It also doesn't sound like you know much about sociopathy.

Sociopaths are every bit as difficult to write as non-sociopathic characters, just for slightly different reasons. Their minds work in ways difficult for most people to imagine.

It sounds to me that you need to think long and hard about your characterization, and like others have pointed out, don't write a character a certain way just because she seemed that way to some readers. Many writers choose to be vague about their characters' traumas, personality disorders, etc, because they want to leave it up to interpretation. Some people thought Lily's a sociopath...so? Just write a well-rounded, believable, intriguing character, and let your readers think what they want.

[BlueLucario]

If you can't describe her in words, then she's not a charcter, she's an IDEA.
You CAN describe her in words, and you WILL. Don't get hung up on knowing what her persona should be labelled as.

Just write her. She will help you too.

I know her, she's been in my head for six years. It's not until now that I released her from her shell. I printed out so much information about sociopaths and psychopathic behaviors, mental illness, ritual abuse and mind control, all for the sake of characterization, trying to figure out what she is in one word. I know a lot about her, I know that she's a gun enthusiast, and I know she's trying to figure out why she's always in so much pain everytime she's sees others socialize. I know that she wants to find the person who was once cruel to her, only because he's the only 'family' she has. That's her main goal.

Yes, I know good advice when I see it. Thank you Toothpaste.

[DWSTXS]

I know her, she's been in my head for six years. It's not until now that I released her from her shell. I printed out so much information about sociopaths and psychopathic behaviors, mental illness, ritual abuse and mind control, all for the sake of characterization, trying to figure out what she is in one word. I know a lot about her, I know that she's a gun enthusiast, and I know she's trying to figure out why she's always in so much pain everytime she's sees others socialize. I know that she wants to find the person who was once cruel to her, only because he's the only 'family' she has. That's her main goal.

Yes, I know good advice when I see it. Thank you Toothpaste.


well, let's hope that just one word doesn't sum her up.

Let your character have some sociopathic tendencies, and give her other traits as well. Make her something so new and different that no one will be able to sum her up in one word. Make her complex and intriguing, and the readers will be entertained...

[Queen of Swords]

I printed out so much information about sociopaths and psychopathic behaviors, mental illness, ritual abuse and mind control, all for the sake of characterization, trying to figure out what she is in one word.

Why do you have to figure out what she is in one word?

[maestrowork]

How about just write the character and let your readers decide? Why "change" the character based on a few comments?

[BlueLucario]

Why do you have to figure out what she is in one word?
Because she's different from kids her age, but I know she isn't perfect. She's strange in a way. I might have a feeling that she's trying to figure who she is herself.

maestrowork: That's what I'm doing :)

(I hope I don't come across as strange. I talk about her like she is real, she's like an imaginary friend.)

[Haphazard]

Because she's different from kids her age, but I know she isn't perfect. She's strange in a way. I might have a feeling that she's trying to figure who she is herself.

maestrowork: That's what I'm doing :)

(I hope I don't come across as strange. I talk about her like she is real, she's like an imaginary friend.)

Her and 89% of the teenage population.

How old is this girl?

[Queen of Swords]

Because she's different from kids her age, but I know she isn't perfect. She's strange in a way. I might have a feeling that she's trying to figure who she is herself.

This doesn't answer my question.

[BlueLucario]

This doesn't answer my question.
You know what, I don't think I have to describe her in one word.

Haphazard: She's 12-13.

[Queen of Swords]

You know what, I don't think I have to describe her in one word.

Yes, that's a little bit closer to addressing my question.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Because she's different from kids her age, but I know she isn't perfect. She's strange in a way. I might have a feeling that she's trying to figure who she is herself.

maestrowork: That's what I'm doing :)

(I hope I don't come across as strange. I talk about her like she is real, she's like an imaginary friend.)

I have a character I've known all my writing life. Her latest incarnation was named 'Carolyn'. When I started writing about her, I talked about her like she was 'real', too.

Somewhere along the way, as Carolyn developed and I learned more and more about her, I discovered she knew herself better than I knew her. And as I let her have her say... I discovered she was a lot like... me. I could reveal things about me - about my beliefs, my loves, my hates, my fears - through her that I couldn't reveal any other way. And I could live through her, vicariously... just a little... 'cause I didn't have much of a 'real' life to live at the time. In time, we helped each other grow up.

And Carolyn definitely helped me grow as a writer.

What am I trying to say here? I just about lost track... it's okay to think of your characters as 'real' to an extent, as long as you don't get lost in them. As they find their way, sometimes we find our own.

[DWSTXS]

Also, Blue, remember...a character doesn't have to know themselves as well as the writer might know them. We just have to be able to show their confusion, in the characterization.

[dempsey]

Part of writing good characters is understanding people. I'm not saying being good at interacting with people, but being able to glance at a person's actions and understand what kind of person they are.

For instance, in my current WIP, I have a moment where one of my characters is very frustrated. I wanted to have him throw something at a wall out of anger, because it was what I would have done in the situation. But I stopped and thought, with the kind of character I'm setting him up to be, would he throw something? The answer was a resounding no. I took it out.

These are things you have to sort out. Realize that your character won't come out in how you describe her, but in what she does in the book. You can say with all your heart that she's got some certain trait, but if the reader doesn't see it, she doesn't have it.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I found that out the hard way, dempsey. I wrote that 'Carolyn' had done such-and-such, based the whole next chapter on it, and when I was done and very happy with my self and my work, 'Carolyn' came along in the night to inform me in no uncertain terms that she would never do what I had her doing.

And she didn't leave me alone until I killed my own darlings and gave life to hers.

[BlueLucario]

I found that out the hard way, dempsey. I wrote that 'Carolyn' had done such-and-such, based the whole next chapter on it, and when I was done and very happy with my self and my work, 'Carolyn' came along in the night to inform me in no uncertain terms that she would never do what I had her doing.

And she didn't leave me alone until I killed my own darlings and gave life to hers.

So have I. Just now :(

[rainboy]

Patrick Bateman in American Psycho is not really likable is he? Does he have any redeeming qualities? Not really. I still enjoyed the book immensely. It was like a window into the mind of a psychopath as well as a social commentary. I likee Dexter too, but Dexter is almost too "nice". For some reason I found Patrick Bateman more intriguing and believable.

[BlueLucario]

Also, I just noticed that I as an author had been too focused on Lily, 80% of the time. Not many things really goes her way, she's not my wish-fufillment character. She's not perfect, the way I see it. She has flaws: Trying to figure out who she is, why she's alone. Some people hate her, maybe because of her sassy attitude. Many people fear her, because she would kill under command.

My point is I feel that everything's been all about her. I'm running into Sue territory. I confess that I was trying so hard to make a scene cool, that my characters even Lily ends up forced, you don't know much the thought of it eats me up.

So, I'm just going to let the characters tell my story 100% of the time, and not try too hard. :)

[DWSTXS]

Patrick Bateman in American Psycho is not really likable is he? Does he have any redeeming qualities? Not really. I still enjoyed the book immensely. It was like a window into the mind of a psychopath as well as a social commentary. I likee Dexter too, but Dexter is almost too "nice". For some reason I found Patrick Bateman more intriguing and believable.

I'll agree with this. What freaked me out about American Psycho is that I was enjoying the wicked sense of humor the MC had, and then, when I realized what was really happening, I realized that I had been truly drawn in and tricked by the author and the writing. I never saw it coming.

[alchemyst]

Blue,

I think if you want to make one of your characters into a sociopath (or a psychopath, as I think they merged the 2 conditions recently in the DSM-IV - calling it Anti-social Personality Disorder) - you really need to do some research so that you understand the character traits REALLY well - which may not be a pleasant task.

It may be difficult to write about this unpleasant character or these character traits, at length too - so you should take that into consideration.

One of the things you didn't mention in the description of your character (as she is developed so far, in your posts anyway) is that - true sociopaths feel basically NOTHING (or feel extremely shallow emotions at best - always 'once removed' from a situation).

If you ever saw a true socio/psycho-path- they would always be just one tick behind 'normal people' in reacting to an emotional situation - as each time, they 'mimic' the responses of others. Sociopaths are incapable of real human-bonding -or the depth of feeling required to truly feel love.

They are also VERY skilled - pathological liars - and very 'persuasive' con artists; they have a constant need for stimulation, and have very poor impulse control

One of the most important facts though (in your case) - Usually a dx of antisocial personality disorder is NOT made until a person is at least 15 yrs old and sometimes as old as 18 (you said your character was 12 or 13?).

So if you want a character like this, you may have to adjust her age.

Also, someone suffering antisocial personality disorder will almost always have a history of conduct disorders throughout childhood and probably a history of starting fires, cruelty to smaller kids or animals etc.

There is lots of debate on the difference between true evil and anti-social personality disorder too ...

Sooo ... gotta get your researcher hat on - google is your friend.

But be warned - it'll probably be really creepy to immerse yourself in this character long enough to make her seem truly 'real' and 'authentic' as a character ...

If you're easily spooked (or influenced) by these kinds of things (the scary but real stuff) - I'd choose a different character and/or traits . Try giving her different challenges ... she can still be a bad-a$$ if that is her role, just not necessarily a sociopath. Who needs the nightmares?

Good luck ...

A ;)

[BlueLucario]

Feel nothing- as in cold and emotionless.

I think my character has pretty much all of them except the pathological lying.

[sportacus]

The main Antagonist in my WIP is extremely sociopathical

[picsbypat]

A sociopath can be a likeable character...Ted Bundy, for instance, was very charming. As far as killing, if your character would need to justify killing someone, they probably don't qualify as a true sociopath. But if you are writing a mystery or thriller, then by all means, make them as cruel as you want. Conflict is essential to a good story.

[lakotagirl]

My suggestion would be to stop trying to label her (sociopath).

I have a honest to goodness sociopath that I must deal with occasionally. This person has no idea that she is anything but normal. Yet, she has almost ruined two men's lives with her needs. (ex-husbands)

The first ex-husband refused to terminate his parental rights so that the second husband could adopt their son.

With no regard to the consequences, she started out by accusing him of non-support. Provided documentation, tried accusing him of neglect, when that failed, kept getting worse .... until she finally accused him of molestation. It took two years for us to be able to see our grandson again. (He's outside riding bikes with grandpa right now)

Shortly after the judge ruled on our case, she divorced the second husband - and is putting him through the same accusations.

Why? BECAUSE SHE WANTS ALL HER KIDS TO HAVE THE SAME LAST NAME.

A sociopath is a person who has no regards for the rights or feelings of anyone else. They do not realize that they are hurting people. They only care about what THEY want.

Someday I want to write about a sociopath. I think I can have a lot of fun with that.

Don't worry about a label. Just know your character.

[kzmiller]

The trouble with writing someone who is emotionless is that it makes it that much harder for the reader to connect with the character. If she really is emotionless, then you'll have to find something else that draws the reader in and makes them want to read onward.

In my very first novel I thought that having an emotionless, kick-ass female fighter would be the coolest character ever. When I had some pro authors look at the first chapter, they basically agreed that she was a 2 dimensional (one author said 2 dimensions might be being too generous, ouch!) caricature and that I needed to get more feeling on the page, more struggle, more striving, more everything that makes us human and makes drama into something that can feel like a real life adventure to a reader (but without all the icky mud, blood and chilly nights in bad weather.) They sound like they were mean but believe me they were quick to point out the positives in the opening chapter too.

After six novels and a generous span of years I've come back to this novel and, not only realized that they were 100% right about the character, but that the story still holds up after all this time. I just have to make sure my kick butt female has blood in her veins, a day job, hopes, dreams, friends, family, an insecurity or two, and that her love interest and she have a real connection, not just a distant gee s/he's so cool I wish s/he'd like me thing.

You don't have to wait years to come back to this to figure things out about the character. Just make her real. She can be a really bad person, a really good person, a really emotionless person or a very emotional person. It's not always easy to balance the needs of the story with the needs of the character, but there's a little weasel room. What kind of person does she have to be to survive the situation you're putting her in? In what ways do you want her to grow and change? If she's emotionless, maybe she feels the lack. All of us wish something was different about ourselves. Maybe she wishes she could feel something--and that may be all that it takes to hook into the reader, if it rings true.

I was all over the place with that. Anyway, I hope it helps.