How long is too long?

[Runk]

My writing partner and I are very new to the business, we've just completed our first script. It's an action/sci-fi adventure movie. We're both very happy with the state of the script at the moment.

There's one potential problem, it's 176 pages long. We've cut it down from 199. Much of it is descriptive, and it seems to time into about a 2 hour long film. Is that too long? Is it too long to be considered by most agents/producers?

Thanks!
Ryan

[alleycat]

Yikes! Yes, it's too long for a spec script.

The rule of thumb is one minute per page.

Why is so much of it descriptive?

[Stylo]

As it stands you need to cut at least 50-60 pages, (which will probably make you want to weep) but hey, at least you're not in the position of not having enough material to flesh it out! I'd suggest you look at several scripts in the same genre to the one you're writing, and compare the amount of description you're using with them.

Also, if you're feeling brave you could put the first 10 in the critique section, for some pointers.

[dpaterso]

Not surprisingly, an oft-asked question. :)

I've seen pros and gurus advise 120 pages max. Less is more, some say aim for 110 pages, others 105, others still maintain that 100 is the new ideal pagecount to aim for. Horror and comedy can be as short as 90 pages, which is the lower limit.

176 pages makes me raise an eyebrow. As a rough rule of thumb, a 2-hour film should be 120 pages (1 minute per page).

Yes indeed, be brave and post your first 10 in Share Your Work. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

-Derek

[kullervo]

110. Whatever you do, do not turn it into a script and a sequel.

[Kosh]

My writing partner and I are very new to the business, we've just completed our first script. It's an action/sci-fi adventure movie. We're both very happy with the state of the script at the moment.

There's one potential problem, it's 176 pages long. We've cut it down from 199. Much of it is descriptive, and it seems to time into about a 2 hour long film. Is that too long? Is it too long to be considered by most agents/producers?

Thanks!
Ryan
Are you sure you aren't overwriting, another poster with a long script was writing too much description. Maybe you should post 10 pages in the Show Your Work section.

[zeprosnepsid]

Spec scripts are supposed to be 90-120 as everyone has noted. But I think you can probably get away with as much as 150-155. But it will make things harder on you. People don't want to read scripts that long.

My advice would be to cut it down to 150 (and as noted, you may have too much description. 2 hours should be 120 pages as other say. As noted, read other scripts. Everything about a script is supposed to be brief). And then write the next screenplay.

You are 'supposed' to have 3 scripts before submitting to agents, they want to see more than one thing from you. Also, if you are submitting to prod cos, they might say 'we like this, but it's not what we're looking for, what else do you have?'. So cut it down, you absolutely have to there's no two ways about it. Then go write the next one. And when you write the next one, know it can't be longer than 120. And then make that one your flagship, that you submit and if they like that, there's a better chance they'll sit through your overlong epic.

But that's only if you can't cut it down to 120, which of course would be for the best.

[nmstevens]

Spec scripts are supposed to be 90-120 as everyone has noted. But I think you can probably get away with as much as 150-155. But it will make things harder on you. People don't want to read scripts that long.

My advice would be to cut it down to 150 (and as noted, you may have too much description. 2 hours should be 120 pages as other say. As noted, read other scripts. Everything about a script is supposed to be brief). And then write the next screenplay.

You are 'supposed' to have 3 scripts before submitting to agents, they want to see more than one thing from you. Also, if you are submitting to prod cos, they might say 'we like this, but it's not what we're looking for, what else do you have?'. So cut it down, you absolutely have to there's no two ways about it. Then go write the next one. And when you write the next one, know it can't be longer than 120. And then make that one your flagship, that you submit and if they like that, there's a better chance they'll sit through your overlong epic.

But that's only if you can't cut it down to 120, which of course would be for the best.


I have to tell you flat out -- do *not* cut it down to a 150 pages.

People are just looking for reasons to say "no" to your script. An action/adventure screenplay that's 150 pages is one of them.

Let me put it to you this way. I've been selling professionally for almost twenty years.

I'm currently working on an action/adventure spec. I wouldn't, in a million years dream of submitting this script or any script at 150 pages (mini-series excluded). I wouldn't even consider doing it. If I was mad enough to write a script at that length, my agent would call me up and tell me I was crazy and *he* wouldn't submit it.

I wouldn't even consider writing an action/adventure script at 120 pages.

I worked like hell to get my first draft at under 115 pages.

The draft I'm working on now will probably come in at 100 -- and that's just about right.

Oh, and just to make it clear -- there's no such thing as a spec mini-series. They're all assignments, so don't think about turning this project into a spec miniseries in some vain hope of preserving its length.

Cut out 76 pages.

NMS

[Runk]

Wow, everyone is in total agreement! Well, at least I've achieved a united opinion. :)

Ok, time for big cuts, y'all are right, we're way too descriptive. Trimming is going to kill, but must be done.

I'll got ahead and post the first ten as is in the Share section, as always, critique is welcome.

Thanks!
Ryan

[aspiringwriter]

No more than 120 pages...as for the descriptiveness..you don't want to over do it with description. Think about Lord Of The Rings-the actual script is like 108 pages or something like that but yet it's a 3 hour movie. Basically you want to get your story told in less than 120 pages. If there's a ton of action that will come later in the shooting script. Get your point across but do it wisely.

In other words, you don't want to have five or six pages without someone speaking. Keep your descriptions to a minimum. For instance, you don't want to go on and on about a certain setting. That's what the art department is for and so on.

But again, 120 is the "industry standard" and some folks out there will tell you sooo many things. If it's 121 pages, it might be considered for reading...But say it's 130 pages, it will probably go right to the PASS pile. Meaning it won't even get read by anyone else. Then again you never know...Still less than 120 is a safe bet.

[Mystery Man]

You say that much of your script is description. That's a red flag right there and the cause of why your script is way too long. You're writing an action movie for God's sake. So don't weigh the script down with wall to wall description. Keep it moving fast. It sounds like cutting it down to 110 pages won't affect your story at all. Just your overwritten stage directions.

[mario_c]

Scripts will go on as long as they have to. ;) A novelist wrote that line.
But seriously, spend a lot of time getting it critiqued. AW has a forum, there's lots of websites like Zoetrope and Triggerstreet that are for writers (particularly script writers) to get critiqued, there may be a writer's group in your area. Get lots of different opinions on your script to find out what works and what doesn't.
Proofread and overanalyze your work. Proof for formatting, proof for accurate continuity, proof for grammar. That's 3 times to go back AND forth over it. Then a few days later, do it again. There's got to be something wrong with your script. Refer to the Nicholls page for format rules, or read scripts online.
I am amazed how much my scripts vary in length as I edit them. My horror spec went from 80 pages to 115, and is now settling at 95; my crime caper started at 135 and is now settling at about 120, which I know is pushing it a bit. A lot of scenes you like will probably fail in the greater scheme of the script. Don't panic, you can use them somewhere else. (I save these drafts for future reference, and/or embarrassment.)
Forget Blake Snyder - read David Mamet's Bambi Vs Godzilla from cover to cover, and then re-read his section on script writing, and acting too. McKee is good too, even when you compare their resumes.:D
If all else fails, Kill Bill it in half or something. Maybe it'll work as a mini-series.

[Mystery Man]

Good luck getting a critique for a 176 page script on either Trigger Street or Zoetrope.

[Kosh]

Good luck getting a critique for a 176 page script on either Trigger Street or Zoetrope.
Are you from The Mystery Man of Screenwriting blog?

[mario_c]

Good luck getting a critique for a 176 page script on either Trigger Street or Zoetrope.
The required length is between 90-150 pages. I've reviewed scripts there that were shorter (that one was taken down, though :D).
It's appropriate if you're writing a Lawrence of Arabia kind of epic, or a mini-series. (Good luck walking in as an unsigned writer trying to sell that.) It's not if you're writing for the Friday night mall crowd; 110 is your goal.

[Mystery Man]

The required length is between 90-150 pages. I've reviewed scripts there that were shorter (that one was taken down, though :D).
It's appropriate if you're writing a Lawrence of Arabia kind of epic, or a mini-series. (Good luck walking in as an unsigned writer trying to sell that.) It's not if you're writing for the Friday night mall crowd; 110 is your goal.

I'm well aware what the desired page count is.

My point is that you're unlikely to get a review for a 176 page script on either American Zoetrope or Trigger Street so whoever's suggestion it was to go there for feedback makes no sense.

[mario_c]

I'm well aware what the desired page count is.

My point is that you're unlikely to get a review for a 176 page script on either American Zoetrope or Trigger Street so whoever's suggestion it was to go there for feedback makes no sense.I was trying to direct him to some assistance, so kindly ease back on the attitude? I'm done then.

[ScriptGirl]

120 pages is an average script. My screenwriting teacher said a great rule of thumb us to consider each page about a minute long. So 120 pages is a two hour movie.

[PerditaDrury]

At my prodco, the first thing the readers do is flip to the end of the script to check the page count. If it's a spec script and it's over 126 pages, it gets sent back or tossed, as simple as that. There's no point in reading something that is too long but, most of all, the long page count reveals that the writer either doesn't understand what a spec script is (ignorant of the business) or that they're arrogant and uncooperative and, when you meet them, will probably say something like "my writing is better than most of the crap out there" and will tell you, in no uncertain terms that they're so talented, they don't have to follow the rules. Yawn.

People in the script buying/making business don't consider it their responsibility to find and cultivate genius -- they're looking for skilled script crafters who are flexible, fast, articulate and presentable. This is a team business and "doing" meetings is essential just as is a willingness to rewrite a script to suit the budget, the locations, the actors or even the whim of the EP.

A too long spec is a red flag.

A non-comedic spec needs to be lean, have great dialogue, captivating full-bodied characters, knock off your socks in the FIRST FIVE PAGES, follow the three act structure, especially so the second act doesn't slow to a confusing muddle, and have pacing that picks up in the third act like a race horse driving down the track to the conclusion.

For specs, we're looking for 105 to 115 pages.

No voice over.

No flashbacks.

No thick action or descriptive paragraphs: a lot of white on the page.

For us, a good SPEC script follows Aristotle's Unities (with the possible addition of a B-line in the action):

Aristotle's Unities
Unity of Time: action take place in twenty-four hours or less.

Unity Of Place: action take place in a single locale.

Unity Of Action: story dramatizes only one central story or action

A spec script tells us if someone can write a basic script.

If the spec meets those marks, and it's really good, we call the writer in and ask what else they've got. (No, we're not interested in making/buying the spec itself usually.) From a verbal pitch we might ask to take a look at something that sounds interesting. That's why writers need to have at least three, preferably five or more scripts ready to go and AT LEAST 20 solid ideas ready to pitch.

THOSE SCRIPTS can break all the rules.

We love pro scripts with voice overs, flashbacks, reverse chronology, thick descriptive paragraphs. We love pro scripts that are edgy, unique in structure and technique.

In my experience, the worst pro script is legions better than the best wannabe's.

So, there are two kinds of spec scripts:

1) The get-read, break-in script
2) The pro spec -- written not as an assignment but because the working writer believed it was worth writing off the clock.

The problem is that new kids want to write a "pro-style" script to break in. That so seldom happens that it's not worth even trying. Yes, I've heard those stories and I love them too. Most of those lucky youngsters are fresh out of film school and have the baby writing chops to pull it off, plus the alma mater pedigree to get read. All of us in the business are interested in what the kids from our old film schools are doing -- it's so hard to get in to the top film schools, after all, that those who made it in and through are basically vetted and proved to be talented, in one way or another.

Comedy might be a different kettle of fish. We hired a writing duo off an elevator pitch, they were that funny.

The old saying that you need to write eight scripts before you're any good at it? That's probably true. I'm one of those who wrote eight before one sold. Like everyone else, I thought the first one was brilliant and I was stunned that it didn't sell in a heartbeat. As I look back, the first three were garbage and I permanently archived them. The fourth, which has been sitting around for over twenty years, was a big sprawling action adventure epic with time travel and episodic scenes. It started with a voice over and had novelistic descriptive passages. It was 185 pages long. A terrible spec script but a good story. Recently I sat down, trimmed it down to 136 pages but left in the voice over and all the rest... and it sold.

The point is, if you can get in the door and get something made, then you have greater opportunities to do "original" work.

A spec script, these days, is like an audition. Show your basic skills, don't try to come off as a unconventional genius as it just might backfire and nobody will be interested in perusing your "masterpiece".

[NikeeGoddess]

Not surprisingly, an oft-asked questionit shouldn't be. if people would just read, read, and read scripts then they would realize that none (cept for a very few exceptions) of them are more than 120 pages. why don't people read scripts? i can't understand why they think they can write a script if they haven't read a bunch. no one would expect that of a novelist or wannabe novelist.
120 pages is an average scriptnot your average. this is the high end. the average is much closer to 100 pages. most movies are not two hours anymore. and 2 hour tv movies are really less than 90 minutes.

[Runk]

Sorry for the delayed response. Perdita, thank you for your post, awesome!