I'm Living In Fear Of Black List

[gophergrrrl]

I've heard the term thrown around; articles from various sources mention that the blacklist is a place that a writer doesn't want to find themselves when searching for an agency to represent them. Recently, I just happened to find myself a bit scared of something I've done with three agencies already, and I'm scared that maybe this might get me blacklisted. So, here is my story.

I've always been one to do tons of research for everything I need to know about my writing. I've made a few slip ups here and there, but for the most part, I feel like I have a pretty decent grasp on what I need to do and how I need to do it. I submitted query letters to three agencies in the past couple of months, one being the WMA in Hollywood, (as they are the only branch that handles writer/directors... or so the lady in Nashville told me). Today, via certified mail, I received a package from the WMA, and inside was everything I had sent to them, my letter; opened but still in the envelope and my sase. Also, there was a letter from the WMA. It said, and I'm paraphrasing, that corporate policy forbids them to read what I had sent, due to there being 'unsolicited material' in my letter. (I submitted a logline for my screenplay along with the query.) According the many articles that I've read, it's ok to send an agent that sort of thing, synopsis, logline, brief explanations of your work, etc., but the agency told me they couldn't accept it.

I have two questions because of afforementioned situation. First being; why are the articles always telling writers to do this if agencies are, by policy, forbidden to read them? And secondly, seeing as how I've made this mistake more than once, am I going to end up on a blacklist? I'll admit that I, perhaps, do not completely understand the meaning or know the real reasons for writers ending up here, but it scares me to think that all my work could go down the drain due to a few little mistakes/misunderstandings on my part.

I'd really appreciate if someone could give me some information on this stuff. Thank you in advance. =o]

[BenPanced]

When WMA stated "unsolicited material", it means you'd sent them too much, too soon in your initial query. Query, then wait for them to ask you to send the synopsis, logline, etc. If they're interested, then they'll solicit the material from you.

I have two questions because of afforementioned situation. First being; why are the articles always telling writers to do this if agencies are, by policy, forbidden to read them? And secondly, seeing as how I've made this mistake more than once, am I going to end up on a blacklist? I'll admit that I, perhaps, do not completely understand the meaning or know the real reasons for writers ending up here, but it scares me to think that all my work could go down the drain due to a few little mistakes/misunderstandings on my part.
1) If the article(s) you've read mention specific agents, query them. General info in an article isn't meant to be a blanket statement about the industry as a whole, however. You'll need to do just a little bit more research to find out which agencies ask for what and when, as well.

2) There is no blacklist, but now that you know, don't query WMA again unless you follow their guidelines.

[aka eraser]

Hiya gophergrrrl. Your post seems better suited for those good folks on our Scriptwriting board so I'll punt it over there.

(But my hunch is, the consensus will be you don't have to worry about being blacklisted. :) )

[HeronW]

Making mistakes won't get you blacklisted.
Being obnoxious, rude, threatening, etc will.
If you get conflicting sub requirements--email the company and ask for a current sub guide since 'you've found conflicting information and you wish to be clear on their requirements'.

[clockwork]

Yours is probably one of fifty that came the same day. No offense, but they won't remember your name in that regard. It seems more and more likely these days that the Big Four (WMA, CAA, UTA and ICM & others) tend to package projects from within with existing writers, directors and actors.

Did you send them just a query letter or did you send them a script/manuscript as well?

[C.bronco]

I thought the Red Scare was over. Do we have any of the Hollywood ten amongst us? Are Ronald Reagan and Ayn Rand's ghosts making you itchy?

[nmstevens]

I've heard the term thrown around; articles from various sources mention that the blacklist is a place that a writer doesn't want to find themselves when searching for an agency to represent them. Recently, I just happened to find myself a bit scared of something I've done with three agencies already, and I'm scared that maybe this might get me blacklisted. So, here is my story.

I've always been one to do tons of research for everything I need to know about my writing. I've made a few slip ups here and there, but for the most part, I feel like I have a pretty decent grasp on what I need to do and how I need to do it. I submitted query letters to three agencies in the past couple of months, one being the WMA in Hollywood, (as they are the only branch that handles writer/directors... or so the lady in Nashville told me). Today, via certified mail, I received a package from the WMA, and inside was everything I had sent to them, my letter; opened but still in the envelope and my sase. Also, there was a letter from the WMA. It said, and I'm paraphrasing, that corporate policy forbids them to read what I had sent, due to there being 'unsolicited material' in my letter. (I submitted a logline for my screenplay along with the query.) According the many articles that I've read, it's ok to send an agent that sort of thing, synopsis, logline, brief explanations of your work, etc., but the agency told me they couldn't accept it.

I have two questions because of afforementioned situation. First being; why are the articles always telling writers to do this if agencies are, by policy, forbidden to read them? And secondly, seeing as how I've made this mistake more than once, am I going to end up on a blacklist? I'll admit that I, perhaps, do not completely understand the meaning or know the real reasons for writers ending up here, but it scares me to think that all my work could go down the drain due to a few little mistakes/misunderstandings on my part.

I'd really appreciate if someone could give me some information on this stuff. Thank you in advance. =o]

Okay -- the only "blacklist" as such would be in reference to people who had demonstrated that they were -- well -- nuts.

Stalkers, people who had followed agents to their cars, shown up unannounced and tried to get into the offices -- sent make-believe bombs to the office with a note saying, "Enclosed, find your next "blockbuster!!!"

People like that.

What you have come up against is simply -- The Big High Wall.

You are one of tens of thousands of unsold screenwriters who would like to be repped by a major agent at a major agency.

They don't want to read tens of thousands of scripts from amateurs, virtually all of which are likely to be unreadable dreck.

They don't even really want to read tens of thousands of "cover letters" -- which in itself takes up a great big chunk of time.

What they want to do is this:

They want to represent the people that they already repping with known track records whose work (whether as writers, directors, or actors) are a known quantity in the industry, which makes them easy to market.

They want to represent people that are repped by *other* agents around town who are also successful, but who might not be happy with their agents.

They want to rep people who might not currently have an agent but who have, through their own resources, managed to break into the business in a significant way and are currently hot (you may think that this doesn't happen, but it does. I was one of these people).

They might -- and it's a big "might" -- be willing to represent beginners who have had material optioned or those who currently have an offer on the table. There are those who think that this is a magic ticket to representation. It is not.

They might (again might) be willing to look at the work of an unsold writer, provided that they have a recommendation, either from a client, or even better, from a buyer -- that is, a producer, or a studio exec who says, "You've got to take a look at this script I just read. I think it's fantastic."

A very small number of mid-level or beginning agents (usually at smaller agencies) are willing to look at unsolicited queries -- that is, letters from strangers who are completely unvetted that come across the transom.

Or, to be precise, they are willing to allow their assistants' time to be used in reading such letters. If the assistant can find the occasion grain of wheat in the midst of the ocean of chaff that comes in the way of such letters -- and that grain of wheat happens to be your script, then they may request that you sign a release form and send it to them.

That will elevate your script to the level of having, perhaps, one chance in five hundred (if you're lucky) of being read -- first by a reader, and if he recommends it, then by the assistant, and if he recommends it, then by the junior agent -- and if he likes it and passes it up to his boss and his boss likes it, you'll probably get a "hip pocket" deal.

That is, you won't be signed, but the agent will agree to try to sell that one script.

That will generally consist of picking "one way in" at each studio. That is, one development company who either has a deal or some relationship with a given studio, and who will agree to take the script in.

If the script then goes to every studio and every studio passes -- that's it. Game over.

Now, some agents might be willing to go further with you. Many won't.

But at any rate, the amount of time that an agent is going to spend on you, given your position in the business, will be small. The chances of selling your script -- an unknown work from an unknown and unsold writer, are small. It will take a lot more work on his part and if it does sell, it will probably sell for not much money, which means that his ten percent will be ten percent of not very much.

From his perspective, it's an investment that may pay off in the future, but it's speculative, and he has to invest most of his time and effort on things that he knows are likely to pay off now -- and those are his well-known high-paying clients.

There are always exceptions, but that's pretty much how things work.

It may seem like a blacklist but it's not. Everyone in your position is being treated the same. They are doing their best to keep all of you out. It's nothing personal.

Most big agencies simply will not accept unsolicited manuscript. Most will not even accept any new clients at all without a recommendation, which makes it pretty pointless to query them.

While it may seem unreasonable, from their perspective, it's the only way that they can do business -- their business being to find work for their clients -- and not to spend thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars a year reviewing the work of amateur would-be screenwriters.

NMS

[naimas]

You are fine. Nothing to worry about. They have to be careful. It was nothing personal and like others said, I bet they have stacks of such letters waiting to be sent to the many others who do that.

[kullervo]

http://www.kullervo.com/The_Agents.html

[creativexec]

It's a liability issue. Agenices cover their asses by only accepting material from people they know, thru lawyers or recommendations. It's standard company policy. Any unsolicitied material is to be sent to the legal department, where it is returned to the sender. Don't take it personally. There is no blacklist. (Except for the annual list praising scripts.)

When I was at ICM, agent Brian Sher (now a manager) read an e-mail query, signed the unknown writers, attached Jim Carrey to their script and sold it for a million dollars (PIERRE, PIERRE). ICM has the "NO UNSOLICITED POLICY" too.


:)

[gophergrrrl]

Great thanks to everyone who gave me great information. Aka Eraser, I'll stick with that board for my screenplay writing q&a from now on. =o] Clockwork, I was actually hoping that they wouldn't remember me! hehe.. and, I only sent a logline, but many of the guides that I mentioned before state that you should give a rundown on what you're screenplay is about; I guess I must have misunderstood and just made a wrong move. A logline is all I sent. Other than that, I think my letter was pretty well written as far as what I've found to be acceptable for a query. C. Bronco; I know it might sound like a silly question to someone who knows more about the whole 'blacklist' idea, but I did talk to an agent (several times) this year, and she mentioned it. I did originally take it to be that you harass an agent or hasstle agencies. I just wanted to make sure. It's a scary thing for me, so I decided that asking those who would know the truth would be the best idea. Thank you for poking fun at me. :oP
And finally, NMStevens; I have to admit, it does hurt my feelings or perhaps confidence, I'm not sure exactly which, that you would make my chances sound so.... non existant. I've found that this board is full of other hard working writers who are trying to break into the industry, and this is one place that we all have to come together and help one another; to stick together. I didn't need to hear that I have virtually no chance of anything, and I surely don't believe that. I believe that all of us here have every chance in the world if we all want it enough and work hard enough for it. That's what this board is about, to me anyway. If we all support and help one another, who's to say that we can't all make our mark someday? However, someone once told me to be thankful for any situation where someone is willing to teach me something, and also to be open to learning it. So, nevertheless, I appreciate that you took a great deal of time to type me out a paragraph of knowledge and strong opinion.
Thanks everyone for answering my questions! =o]

[Smiling Ted]

And finally, NMStevens; I have to admit, it does hurt my feelings or perhaps confidence, I'm not sure exactly which, that you would make my chances sound so.... non existant. I've found that this board is full of other hard working writers who are trying to break into the industry, and this is one place that we all have to come together and help one another; to stick together. I didn't need to hear that I have virtually no chance of anything, and I surely don't believe that. I believe that all of us here have every chance in the world if we all want it enough and work hard enough for it. That's what this board is about, to me anyway. If we all support and help one another, who's to say that we can't all make our mark someday? However, someone once told me to be thankful for any situation where someone is willing to teach me something, and also to be open to learning it. So, nevertheless, I appreciate that you took a great deal of time to type me out a paragraph of knowledge and strong opinion.
Thanks everyone for answering my questions! =o]

NMStevens knows what he's talking about.

He didn't say you had no chance. He said the chance was small. There was no criticism of you or your work - just a description of how the industry functions. (And an accurate one, at that.) If your feelings were hurt by the truth, well, that's your fault, not his.

Being supportive doesn't mean telling someone what they want to hear; it means telling someone what they need to hear.

[kullervo]

I agree with Smiling Ted. Telling someone that the chances are anything other than horrible is irresponsible, deluded, and cruel.

[WriteKnight]

Gophergirl,

You didn't screw up royally, you're not on a blacklist, you're getting EXCELLENT advice and perspective from NMS. It is an incredibly difficult uphill task you (WE) are facing. Best to understand that. You will be praised and rejected - over - and over - and over - You have to be ready for that. The odds are slim. They are stacked against you. You're swimming in a HUGE slush pile, hoping to get picked ...

That means you have to be as perfect as you can be, create as many opportunites for 'luck' to occur,and be ready when it does.


Keep writing.

[gophergrrrl]

I definitely know that, WriteKnight, all of that. =o]

Really though, guys, I only came here with two questions. I wasn't really asking for someone to explain how small of a chance there is of getting into this industry. I try to stay away from negativity and negative thoughts. Again, I appreciate everyone for sharing what they know with me! I hope to make some friends here, as I reeeeally need some other writers in my life to talk about things with... normal folks just don't understand. ^.^

[Billingsgate]

In addition to what NMS said, it's exactly what creativeexec said, no more and no less. People in the movie business are hit with nuisance lawsuits on practically a daily basis by people who say things like, "I sent a postcard to Steven Spielberg when he was 12 and wrote a joke about an alien in suburbia, and now I expect 8 quazillion dollars in back royalties from ET."

The agency probably did not want to in any way formally accept your material just in case they had an idea in development that is anywhere close to yours, so that you couldn't later accuse them of stealing your idea.

Before you can formally submit a pitch to any company in the movie business (well, most), they will make you sign all sorts of forms which absolve them of responsibility in case they steal your idea. Without that, they will take your pitch, cover their eyes while handing it to the legal department, and send it back with a cover note such as the one you got. I've had queries returned along with disclaimer forms and instructions to resubmit the query along with the disclaimer.

Start off with a very basic query, or even better, ask for their submission guidelines. Sometimes they won't even read a one-page query without that disclaimer form.

[LIVIN]

I'm surprised at how often and how many newbies come here asking questions and end up not liking what NMS says. (But, enough with dead horses...)

You sent to much to WMA. Of course, in your situation, sending them anything would have been to much, as they don't consider new writers.

You could go here:
http://www.wgaeast.org/index.php/articles/article/498?startnum=&sort=&letter=&wgc=144#wga498
and click on
Download WGAE Agency List (http://www.wgaeast.org/index.php?module=uploads&func=download&fileId=349)
for more info, I suppose

And, I've gotta say something (negativity warning)... and I wouldn't say it if you hadn't said you did tons of research... but, well, it doesn't seem like you did tons of research... if one third of your queries (at a minimum) went to companies like WMA, well... that path won't get you where you want to go... but, I'm also prone to think the other companies are in similar boats as WMA (based on the small number of queries), which might lead me to believe that all three of the companies you queried don't accept material from new writers...

Anyway, it's good to have multiple scripts under your belt when trying to find an agent

[naimas]

Wow, why don't you guys just let the girl address NM and not feel the need to come to his aid? She addressed it to him. Leave it. She has a right to her opinion. It feels like a clique and it is interesting that it is the same group from the Inktip thread. I am not a newbie and I don't always like his posts. I am stopping it right here. Gophergrrrl said something to NM, not anyone else at that point.

[clockwork]

I appreciate your sentiment naimas but as long as they do it respectfully and productively, members are free to address whatever posts or comments they like. If they weren't free to do that, we wouldn't have any kind of open conversation at all.

I understand what you're saying, you feel this is like a pile-on but I think gophergrrrl's doing fine. She's got some good information here, enough to get started on.

I was going to close this but in the interest of free speech, I'll leave it open. But if it gets uglier, I'll consider it derailed and lock it.

And I really don't want to have to do that so let's all show how restrained and respectful we can be. ;)

[naimas]

Matt Damon!

[LIVIN]

Wow, why don't you guys just let the girl address NM and not feel the need to come to his aid?

Because it happens too often and he has sound, accurate words.

[nmstevens]

Well, gophergirl's response to my post really put me in a very awkward position, because it was like -- yet again, I'm getting tagged with the Mr. Negativity label.

And when she posted her logline and asked for comments, while I was tempted to respond, I actually refrained from doing it, because at some point she said something to the effect of -- does anyone have anything good to say about it -- meaning her logline.

Ultimately, I chose not to say anything. Honestly, I didn't want to be put in a position of having to give a compliment just to do it, when I feel that the point of these things is to identify what needs to be fixed, not what's working.

Look, I guess I know as well as anybody that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down -- but I've kind of gone beyond that. In fact, I have to give myself shots -- and there's really no sugar of any kind involved in that. You want the medicine, you just stick the needle in.

It's never been my goal to bring anybody down. I just want to give people the tools that they need to undertake what is going to be a very difficult battle, even for the most talented person embarking on this road.

If I see somebody starting out across the Gobi desert wearing cut-offs with a bottle of Evian and I say, "You know, it's a three week walk across that desert, and you really need to prepare yourself, master how to survive in a desert, take sufficient food and water, dress appropriately -- and by the way, people who go out in the Gobi desert without proper preparation, say wearing cut-offs and carrying a bottle of Evian -- ninety-nine times out of a hundred -- they end up as bleached bones --

-- maybe I'm just being Mr. Negative.

The way I look at it, information about how things work in the business you're looking to succeed in is never negative, so long as it's accurate information.

That's because accurate information allows you to properly arm yourself as you move forward.

It keeps you from wasting your time.

It keeps you from having unrealistic expectations.

It allows you to use your resources more effectively.

If you know how things work, it makes you seem like more of a professional when you deal with professionals in the business.

If the odds are long and the wall is high -- then the odds are small and the wall is high, whether anyone has told you about it or not.

But if you know that, for instance, mid-level agents at smaller agencies are more likely to be open to new clients and to read your material than big agents at major agencies -- then that's something that you can use to maximize your chances.

Or you can take your material directly to development companies -- there are a number of them who will also read your material, if properly queried.

But I have seen it happen more often than I can say -- I've seen it happen in film schools, in seminars, in writing groups, where nobody wants to be "negative" -- and the result is that nobody is prepared to address any elephants in the room -- realities about bad scripts, realities about unrealistic expectations, realities about the hard truths of the industry, about breaking in, about getting agents, about what will sell.

And nobody's interests are served by this.

I'm not looking to get into any feuds with anybody. It's a free country (at least for now). Anybody who doesn't like my advice doesn't have to take it.

Anybody who doesn't believe, or chooses not to accept my conclusions -- likewise, nobody says you have to.

I am truly not rooting for anybody to fail. I would like there to be a hundred times more movies made every year and I'd love for all of them to make a fortune -- because the more movies get made and the more money they make only improves my chances of selling things and having them get made.

This isn't a zero sum game. Everyone should only go and see everything -- twice.

When my movie comes out, I hope all of you go and see it twice.

And I hope that Gophergirl and others will accept my comments -- grim though they may seem, in the spirit in which they are offered, which is not to make anybody feel bad, but to provide information that might ultimately prove useful in what will likely prove to be a very difficult undertaking.

NMS

[naimas]

Because it happens too often and he has sound, accurate words.

Was that tongue in cheek? This is what I read in the above eleven words.
This happens too often (confirmation one) and you feel the need to defend him because you agree with his views (confirmation two)

What happens too often? People question him? Isn't that freedom of speech?

I appreciated his last post. I did. We all have differing levels of experience that can benefit others. And it is important that even the learned express wisdom in an inclusive, encouraging way...even if it is harsh and honest.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Matt Damon!

Are you suggesting that the best way for Gophergirl to get anyone to read her script is to appear in several feature films and become "the next big thing" as an actor after a breakout role in one?

Because that actually seems harder than the regular path to getting into screenwriting.

[naimas]

No. I was trying to lighten up the thread by quoting a stupid line from TEAM AMERICA:WORLD POLICE!

And to add to your question....no, it wouldn't work, unless you knew folks in the business. And sure, Ben Affleck is a help but he had a foot in the business long before Good Will Hunting. It would be like me suggesting Tori Spelling. Not a legit example for newbies or those outside Hollywood to follow. Finding a local film festival (more and more of them these days) and shacking up with a local company might help to get a beginner feature made. But you would have to check quality before going ahead with anything.

[Jon-Luke]

Matt Damon!

Well I'm ****ing Matt Damon or is it Ben Affleck... I forget :whip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLG3S5WzHig&feature=related

I have to say something here and it may make some of your yaws drop: :Jaw: but we need more people like NMS. Its a tough industry out there, 80% + of the people out there who are going to be involved with decision making process of getting your script purchased and your script made will range from being downright rude to plain incompetent. We need to be challenged and to receive strong criticism in safe environments like there forums so that we can build the character and charm that we are all going to need if we want to survive in the real world out there...

I'm not saying that this is not the real world, but the things we say, the work we post and the opinions we have here will not have a dramatic effect on our careers. But if we react badly to the first bit of criticism that comes our way from a producer, studio executive or director no matter how "Destructive" it may be that could be the end of any working relationship with these people. And I think we all know how quickly word spreads in Hollywood.

And on another note, in regards to how difficult it is to get representation and to sell etc, etc... I recently read a great little quote from one of Hollywood's favorite scriptwriters (Paul Haggis - Casino Royale, Letters from Iwo Jima, In the Valley of Elah): " If you write a great script and put it in your drawer at your cottage in Muskoka Lake, someone will track it down and find it. If you write a bad script and send 100,000 copies out, it still ain't gonna sell. The trick is really simple: write a great script."

Just my 10 cents for what its worth...

[dpaterso]

Casino Royale was a great script?! Paul baby, don't believe your own hype. Call me sometime, we'll do lunch.

-Derek

[naimas]

We need to be challenged and to receive strong criticism in safe environments like there forums



We do have a script critique section. Hit me with your best shot if I post something there. That section lets you get critiqued (not criticized) in a strong, honest way. I am all for it. It hurts like hell but it can help your work....but, the forum as a whole isn't the place for that. So I support what you are saying, but not on the site as a whole.




so that we can build the character and charm that we are all going to need if we want to survive in the real world out there...



Negativity is not a character trait that makes it in Hollywood. However, I get what you are saying, I am just wondering how you think we get character from here considering so many different types of people post here. There is a difference between Top Chef and Hell's Kitchen. This isn't the real world, and I know that many folks just want to find some info, make some friends and feel accepted as creative writers.

I am aware of the Take it Outside Section. I could see the use of some strong venting there. Maybe a different section needs to be started to address the industry in a very strong, hard way.

[LIVIN]

I utterly disagree with naimas. If this section was dedicated to puppies, lollipops and sunshine, then it wouldn't do anyone any good.

[naimas]

I like puppies and lollipops and sunshine. Not in that order.

I would also have to see some "success" before I let people think they could critique me harshly. And everyone here should expect the same. Wow, so a site where respect and constructive criticism is put forth is somehow WonkaLand? Count me in!

[Jon-Luke]

I think when it comes to any criticism harsh or not its up to the person who's work is being criticized to infer the information in any way they need to to - If your take on having your work criticized is to feel victimized then I believe that is your issue.

I know that we take our work personally and we put our hearts and passion into it but ultimately the work needs to stand on its own and it will be perceived differently by different people. Some of the criticism of the work may be relevant and some not be and I think that is the writer's responsibility to decide what criticism to take to heart and what criticism to ignore.

Therefore I don't believe any criticism can be "Too Harsh" unless the criticism is being aimed at the writer on a personal level.

Then on another level I also agree that its important to stay positive and to help each other. Its not hard is it to write "Good Luck" or "Hope this helps" at the end of your critique...

[clockwork]

I think when it comes to any criticism harsh or not its up to the person who's work is being criticized to infer the information in any way they need to to - If your take on having your work criticized is to feel victimized then I believe that is your issue.

I know that we take our work personally and we put our hearts and passion into it but ultimately the work needs to stand on its own and it will be perceived differently by different people. Some of the criticism of the work may be relevant and some not be and I think that is the writer's responsibility to decide what criticism to take to heart and what criticism to ignore.

Therefore I don't believe any criticism can be "Too Harsh" unless the criticism is being aimed at the writer on a personal level.

Then on another level I also agree that its important to stay positive and to help each other. Its not hard is it to write "Good Luck" or "Hope this helps" at the end of your critique...

This sums up the Share Your Work experience very well but I'd add, for the person being critiqued, it's also never too hard to write "Thank you" in response to people who've taken the time to crit. Even if you're given advice that seems irrational and worthless and all you want to do is scream back obscenities, it's always better to write "Thank you for your input" and walk away.

Hey, I can dream.

[kullervo]

Harsh? I was in a writers' group for years. We had two rules:

1. No hitting.
2. If anybody cried, we all got a whiskey.

The problem? We were all UCLA MFA students in screenwriting. Which meant we could hear anything and not flinch. I did pound my head against the table a couple of times. One guy marched out one day and never came back.

We did eventually add an MFA student from AFI. She cried nearly every week.

I miss that group.

[Jon-Luke]

2. If anybody cried, we all got a whiskey.

Great Rule - we should have a whiskey shot smiley that we could all use for times when needed! but I guess we'll have to use these instead for now: :e2cry::e2bummed::e2beat::e2tomato:

[naimas]

I agree with all of you. The original post I was commenting on was basically suggesting the entire site to open to hard criticism. I thought it was fine for the share your work area. Not fine for other areas. And it doesn't hurt to add the closers you put. Yup. Others should start using them. For the most part I find that the suckier the work the more it gets ignored here. So, that isn't harsh, at least not to the person's face. If I posted my work in the share your work area and didn't like the criticism? I shouldn't be posting it there. However, I have seen some criticisms that ended up being more personal than professional. That is why I feel that other parts of the site should be different and a less critical tone.

[write2livelive2write]

I have been seriously considering writing a screenplay for quite a while. Am I right to say that if I don't have any connections with hollywood, I should just give up on the idea before I waste any time on it? (at least that's how i feel after reading this thread.)

[dageezer]

I have been seriously considering writing a screenplay for quite a while. Am I right to say that if I don't have any connections with hollywood, I should just give up on the idea before I waste any time on it? (at least that's how i feel after reading this thread.)

That's not just a no....but a HELL NO!

Don't give it up before you start, write it.

Most writers and directors had no contacts when they first started out. Why should feel any different? Write it, rewrite it, plug it, shop it. Go for it. You might end up being one of the lucky ones. You'll never know until you go for it.

I'd hate to see you be one of those people that always say, "Gee, I wish I wudda."

[clockwork]

I have been seriously considering writing a screenplay for quite a while. Am I right to say that if I don't have any connections with hollywood, I should just give up on the idea before I waste any time on it? (at least that's how i feel after reading this thread.)

You should write because it's your passion. 'Passion' being something you pour your heart and soul into - not because you see it as a commodity to be sold or as a means to an end - but because you'd be doing it whether you got paid or not, whether you ultimately succeed or fail.

That's the bohemian side of me answering but still, largely how I see my own writing. The real world is a little more ascerbic than that; yeah, it'd be great if you knew Brian Grazer, yeah you should probably write something that someone is likely to pay more for, yeah, you should definitely make sure your script looks, sounds and smells like what people are expecting.

But write because you want to and write about what's inside you, in your mind and in your gut, clawing to get out. No, I'm not talking about last night's chili.

What's required after that is merely an endless string of talent and luck buried beneath details and technicalities - all of which can, in one way or another, be beaten, bought, learned or stolen - and the order of which may vary.

Good luck! :)

[LIVIN]

you should definitely make sure your script looks, sounds and smells like what people are expecting.


Are you using scented paper again? I thought that was cheating. If not, can you please smell my scripts and tell me if they smell appropriate? :D

[clockwork]

:D

It was a producer who said that to me! She finally got around to reading a script of mine which she'd had for many months and ended up really enjoying. She was apologising for not having got to it sooner and she said, "Why can't you just smell how good a script is? It would make things so much easier."

So now I just staple one of those Magic Tree car air fresheners to the back page. Ah... forest pine.

[LIVIN]

So now I just staple one of those Magic Tree car air fresheners to the back page. Ah... forest pine.

Forest Pine? A great script is supposed to smell like Forest Pine? Ugh.

[nmstevens]

I have been seriously considering writing a screenplay for quite a while. Am I right to say that if I don't have any connections with hollywood, I should just give up on the idea before I waste any time on it? (at least that's how i feel after reading this thread.)


Nothing on this thread should have led you to believe that Hollywood, in some fashion is a "closed shop."

It isn't.

If you happen to be born in the business, that's certainly going to give you a leg up. If your Dad is Michael Eisner or "fill in the blank" -- then sure, you're going to have a shorter walk to getting your work into the hands of somebody who's likely to buy it.

But at some point, whoever you are, you have to deliver work that, itself, "delivers" or you won't keep working.

A name will only get you so far. A recommendation will only get you so far.

What will ultimately get you where you need to be is being able to consistently produce work of quality.

That's why, when somebody says -- "I'm thinking about writing a screenplay - what are my chances?" -- by which I'm presuming you mean -- what are your chances of selling this screenplay for hundreds of thousands of dollars and becoming a professional screenwriter who sells screenplays for hundreds of thousands of dollars on a regular basis, you might as well ask -- "I'm thinking about painting a picture -- what are my chances?" -- meaning, what are my chances of selling this first-time painting for hundreds of thousands of dollars and becoming a professional artist and selling my paintings for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And this is where all of those accusations of "negativity" come in.

Your chances are, I'm afraid - extremely poor.

At the point where you are right now -- someone who's never written a screenplay, and let's say, for argument's sake, never painted a painting -- at this point, you've got about as much chance of becoming a professional screenwriter selling screenplays to the major studios for hundreds of thousands of dollars, as you do of becoming a professional artist selling your paintings to major galleries which sell them for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Now, if you are already a professional writer in some other medium -- say you're a journalist, or a novelist, or a professional playwright, then your chances go up significantly.

But if you're not, then you are simply one of many tens of thousands of amateurs who aspire to be screenwriters but who have not demonstrated that they possess the professional qualifications for the job.

I'm not saying anything specific to you -- because maybe you are the exception -- the one in many thousands who have never written a screenplay, who have never done any other professional writing, but who, by whatever native skill, are still able to turn out a work of profesional calibre.

Such things do happen, very very rarely. Sometimes people who've never played the piano can just sit down and start playing it. That can also happen.

But it wouldn't be appropriate for me to base my advise on those very rare exceptions.

It wouldn't be appropriate for *you* to conclude that you are in that very rare category either.

Most people who ultimately succeed don't succeed by writing their first screenplay -- it's fantastic, they get an agent, they sell it, and their career takes off -- any more than somebody paints their first painting and their career takes off.

Screenwriting embodies a particular skillset that, as a rule, has to be mastered over the course of the writing of many screenplays, and through the development of the ability to self-critique, which is probably the most essential skill that any professional writer can master.

Going forward, you have to realize that the odds are always going to be high for any newcomer to break in to this business.

Yet it happens on a regular basis. At the heart of it happening, far more often than family connections, is a spec script that gets people excited.

I knew nobody. Most of the guys I know -- writers, directors, producers, who are working successfully in this business, started off knowing nobody.

So anybody who is suggesting that *I* am saying that there is no way in is seriously misquoting me. I would never suggest any such thing.

I would never tell anybody who is serious about pursuing a career in this business that they have no chance.

What I do tell people is that they shouldn't kid themselves about what their chances are.

You have to be realistic about how competitive this world is. Your first effort, if you decide to try to sell it, is going up against spec scripts that have been written by Oscar winning screenwriters, by screenwriters who have had movies produced that have made hundreds of millions of dollars -- and it is a zero sum game.

Studios and other production companies only have so many slots to fill, only so many dollars a year to spend on scripts that they will put into development in a year. They pick yours, that knocks out some other script.

And as a rule, they'd much rather go with somebody they know, somebody who already has that additional credibility -- and somebody that they know that they can work with.

None of that is true with a new, unknown writer.

That means that, for them to go with your script, it has to be not just as good as those other screenplays -- because all things being equal, they'll prefer to go with a known writer. It has to be better.

That's what you, as a first-time, unknown, unsold writer have to overcome in order to "break in."

Possible? Yes. People do it. I did it.

But it wouldn't be honest if I made it sound easy. It isn't. It isn't even a matter of simply working hard and living right. I could practice the violin every day for the rest of my life and I'd never get to Carnegie Hall.

There also has to be some native talent that practice can polish to excellence.

If you ask me what you should do after finishing your first screenplay, the best advice I could give you would be to go back and write another four or five screenplays -- and then go back and take a look at your first one, and if you don't think that it isn't nearly as good as you thought originally -- then you're probably in trouble, because that means you haven't really learned anything writing those other screenplays.

Look, you have to take what I'm saying here for what it's worth -- but getting into this business isn't like winning a lottery ticket, except in terms of the odds. It takes commitment, hard work -- on top of whatever talent you need to have in the first place.

If you aren't prepared to make that commitment, then you shouldn't expect to succeed.

When I graduated from the Graduate Program at NYU -- which is now close to thirty years ago, one of our teachers said, almost in passing, that a graduating student should pretty much expect that it would take ten years from graduation before they were actually making any kind of decent living in the business. Ten years.

And that's having come out of one of the top film schools.

The fact is, most of the graduates didn't last that long. They gave up and went into others line of work.

As for me -- it took me just about ten years, working other jobs, writing scripts in my spare time, and whatever, before I was actually making a living in the business.

That was after three years in undergraduate school and three years of graduate school, studying to be in the business.

So -- you want to write a screenplay? By all means, go for it.

If you truly want to be part of this business, for those who succeed, it can have great rewards, both financially and artistically -- and great frustrations.

But all I can say is -- I just finished my latest spec. It's going out now. It'll be competing with a lot of other specs by a lot of other writers bigger than I am.

The way it'll sell is by being better than the specs written by those guys.

You want your spec to sell? It's going to have to be better than all of ours.

And if this comes off as discouraging, please try to remember -- I'm just the messenger.

NMS

[Jon-Luke]

Forest Pine? A great script is supposed to smell like Forest Pine? Ugh.

:e2point: LOL! Hmmm but Forest Pine sounds like a good title for a script - Something about a love sick teenager who hides a necklace in a FOREST and then PINES for her lost lover - or, no that's been done before... It was a TV series I think... with Forests, and... oh ya Laura. Thats it.:idea:


Oh and I agree with what NMS is saying (again) and no, I'm not nuts, just a little nutty.

[naimas]

You don't have to have connections in Hollywood to justify writing a script. But it helps to realize that connections will ultimately be important. Some have used websites like Inktip, Triggerstreet, and a whole bunch of other sites. Some love them. Some haven't found success with them. Some hate them. Agents will accept submissions from people all over the country, you just have to make sure your query letter is good enough to draw their interest. There are also pitch fests where people from all over the country go in and pitch ideas. Any one of these ways can help you start to get connections.

Writing an incredible script is one huge part of the battle, but it isn't the end of all things. It really is the start. So keep writing a great script. There will be others who will tell you to write another two or three of them. What matters is that your idea is something that companies or agents can instantly see in their heads. Something that cries out to be a movie (unless you are the type of writer who doesn't like mainstream cinema...then I guess the smaller indie way is the way to go and others would have way better advice for you)

You don't have to live in or near Hollywood. I live thousands of miles away. But I have developed contacts there and I visit there as often as I can. BUT I didn't start doing that until I got my first networking done (by going to conventions and meeting other companies) So it can be done. So don't think you need to up and move to Hollywood to be a writer. There are tons of people who have moved there who have not sold. And I will close with this... I agree with every word that NM Stevens said in his last post.

[nmstevens]

You don't have to have connections in Hollywood to justify writing a script. But it helps to realize that connections will ultimately be important. Some have used websites like Inktip, Triggerstreet, and a whole bunch of other sites. Some love them. Some haven't found success with them. Some hate them. Agents will accept submissions from people all over the country, you just have to make sure your query letter is good enough to draw their interest. There are also pitch fests where people from all over the country go in and pitch ideas. Any one of these ways can help you start to get connections.

Writing an incredible script is one huge part of the battle, but it isn't the end of all things. It really is the start. So keep writing a great script. There will be others who will tell you to write another two or three of them. What matters is that your idea is something that companies or agents can instantly see in their heads. Something that cries out to be a movie (unless you are the type of writer who doesn't like mainstream cinema...then I guess the smaller indie way is the way to go and others would have way better advice for you)

You don't have to live in or near Hollywood. I live thousands of miles away. But I have developed contacts there and I visit there as often as I can. BUT I didn't start doing that until I got my first networking done (by going to conventions and meeting other companies) So it can be done. So don't think you need to up and move to Hollywood to be a writer. There are tons of people who have moved there who have not sold. And I will close with this... I agree with every word that NM Stevens said in his last post.


Many thanks and regarding living in Hollywood -- I live in Brooklyn and, apart from visiting L.A. a few times a year (or when someone pays to fly me out) have also never lived in Hollywood.

My agent lives there and he keeps track of what needs to be kept track of out there.

NMS

[write2livelive2write]

Thanks everyone for your encouragement, especially to NMS for your long reply.

Haven't thought of moving to live near Hollywood. I don't think I can afford the housing there. ;)

It takes great effort to succeed in any career, doesn't it? As long as I know there is hope as an unknown writer, that's good enough for me.

Thanks again.

[Mr Sci Fi]

Gopher, go the old school Indie route and film your own screenplays. To hell with Hollywood - If your screenplay doesn't include angsty-teens or Ex-Cons that resemble a Ken Doll despite 20 years in San Quintin, they don't want to read it.

Get yourself a camcorder and actors.

[WriteKnight]

"Old school indie route" - What a curious expression.

For me, "Old school" is film. Funny that it's now considered 'old school' to shoot with a digital camcorder and edit on your computer.

Seems pretty new school to me.

But then again, I'm fifty.

[zeprosnepsid]

You can't afford to buy a house out here, but if you look around you can find some really cheap rents. Not that I advocate moving to LA, because it's kind of like hell.

Now is a terrible time to make an indie film. Almost every mini-major who picks up those kinds of film for distribution is gone or is going. There is no one, literally no one, buying indie films right now.

[Mr Sci Fi]

"Old school indie route" - What a curious expression.
For me, "Old school" is film. Funny that it's now considered 'old school' to shoot with a digital camcorder and edit on your computer.


I prefer film and flatbed editing myself, but digital is a lot easier on the wallet these days.

[Mr Sci Fi]

Now is a terrible time to make an indie film. Almost every mini-major who picks up those kinds of film for distribution is gone or is going. There is no one, literally no one, buying indie films right now.

Who said anything about anybody buying them? She can just start her own company and distribute them herself. And plugging them away at film festivals in the mean time. It's what my company does, and we've been having a successful run of it for a while over here.

If you want to get anything done in this business, you've got to do it yourself. Besides, why let some third-rate director destroy your vision anyway? The writer is virtually useless on a Hollywood set. And it shows, considering third billing actors usually make six-figures where the writer is lucky to make even five.

[Lillyth]

Look, I guess I know as well as anybody that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down -- but I've kind of gone beyond that. In fact, I have to give myself shots -- and there's really no sugar of any kind involved in that. You want the medicine, you just stick the needle in.

It's never been my goal to bring anybody down. I just want to give people the tools that they need to undertake what is going to be a very difficult battle, even for the most talented person embarking on this road.

If I see somebody starting out across the Gobi desert wearing cut-offs with a bottle of Evian and I say, "You know, it's a three week walk across that desert, and you really need to prepare yourself, master how to survive in a desert, take sufficient food and water, dress appropriately -- and by the way, people who go out in the Gobi desert without proper preparation, say wearing cut-offs and carrying a bottle of Evian -- ninety-nine times out of a hundred -- they end up as bleached bones --

-- maybe I'm just being Mr. Negative.

The way I look at it, information about how things work in the business you're looking to succeed in is never negative, so long as it's accurate information.

That's because accurate information allows you to properly arm yourself as you move forward.

It keeps you from wasting your time.

It keeps you from having unrealistic expectations.

It allows you to use your resources more effectively.

If you know how things work, it makes you seem like more of a professional when you deal with professionals in the business.

If the odds are long and the wall is high -- then the odds are small and the wall is high, whether anyone has told you about it or not.
NMS
I, for one, really appreciated the reality check.

I like to think of it this way, if I were Rocky Balboa, and and were preparing for that one fight in the first Rocky movie, I DAMN well better know that each round lasts 3 minutes, and that there will be 15 of them.

I'd also be advised to find out what three-minutes in the ring is like, cuz, really, it's usually worse than you think.

I, for one, really appreciate the guy on the sidelines going, "PSST! It's FIFTEEN rounds, not one..."

THAT way, if I chose to believe I can surmount all the odds and get my script produced by a major studio, starring A-list actors, well, then, at least I know what to psych myself up against.

I think we can all do the impossible, but we still need to have a vague frame of reference for it that is grounded in reality.

[mario_c]

Harsh? I was in a writers' group for years. We had two rules:

1. No hitting.
2. If anybody cried, we all got a whiskey.

The problem? We were all UCLA MFA students in screenwriting. Which meant we could hear anything and not flinch. I did pound my head against the table a couple of times. One guy marched out one day and never came back.

We did eventually add an MFA student from AFI. She cried nearly every week.

I miss that group.Critique the writing, not the writer. In addition to Share Your Work I've been going to a NYC writer's group for a few years. That is our mantra and motto.
I can remember only one angry walkout and no crying, so I think your UCLA kids should attend some sessions. Maybe they need some coaching in civility ;) But whatever makes you feel good.