The Epic Problem

[Nateskate]

Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

[TrickyFiction]

How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

It may help to consider other ways to describe characters besides hair and eyes. People have many different defining little things about them: like shape, costume, voice, behavior, movement, etc. Limiting yourself to hair and eye color is what's tying you down here. You know lots of people in your life, I'm sure. Try describing each of them without allowing yourself to use hair and eyes. I bet you'll be surprised at what you come up with.

[Sunshine13]

Sometimes if it isn't the main ensemble of characters, I don't go into too much detail of eye color, etc. I want the reader to be able to use their imagination. But, if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can always use the landscape/scenery to help. 'The sun caught in his green eyes, giving them an amber hue." Lame, but a quick example. Beak like nose is another example, instead of always focusing on the eyes. And if you have more than one species of characters, for instance elf, you don't have to mention the dead give away of the narrow ears. Give the reader some intelligent credit :P

And as for landscape itself, don't worry about getting so detailed that you leave nothing left for the reader to imagine. If you paint the picture too vivid, you take away their ability to use their imagination and what they might have seen in their head might conflict with what you beautifully described, and it doesn't jive and the book may not be as intriguing to the reader.

Also, not sure if you are even doing this, but environments don't always have to be spelled out in one paragraph, which doing that tends to fall into the repetitive trap you're talking about. So instead, wrap your environment around what's happening.

An arrow pierced the moonlit sky and zipped over the luscious canopy of trees. Leroy hobbled to the next knotted oak and wiped the sweat from his leathery face. One more ogre to go, he thought, gearing up his bow for the next shot. His cracked fingers curled over the atlatl, numb from the frigid breeze.

Totally pulled that out, so it may not be the best example, but in it the reader establishes it's night time, he's in a forest, and it's really cold.

[Fenika]

To answer your initial question, I try to do research as I go. Sometimes I'll just pull a random bird/mammal outta a hat as a placeholder and know I'll go back and take care of it later. Sometimes I go to the trouble of looking up different (bird) species and their basic habits (via pictures or youtube- nothing fancy, just to find one that hangs out on trees vs the ground or w/e)

Same applies to other aspects of my world. I have plans to do a lot of research (including better names for many of my characters- I want to avoid christian names) between my first and second drafts...

Does that help?

[Gynn]

Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

Don't spend too much time worrying about tree species and flowers. You can describe a scene without being too specific. I know that I don't want to hear about every patch of flowers or copse of trees that the characters pass by, and I definitely don't want to know the species unless it's common enough that I can picture it myself or relative to the story. Give a nice, general description of the area, enough that I can see it and fill in the blanks.

For your characters, I don't want to hear about their eyes or their hair unless they're doing something with it. For example, don't make a paragraph that tells me that Lord Clee'shay had a dirty brown beard, green eyes, ruby lips, is fat, a peg leg, etc. Paragraphs that just tell me what someone looks like are a turn-off.

The elf was mysterious, with mysterious red eyes that lorded over the rest of his lithe face, which included: one slender nose; two lips (ruby); a handsome chin and three mysterious scars. His torso consisted of four athletic limbs...

Ugh.

Instead, work it somehow into the story so that we don't have to stop just to hear about his looks. Maybe something like this: Lord Clee'shay scratched his hoary beard, then clomped over to the table. "Nice leg," Ar'wy-nni'a said. "Carve it yourself?" Clee'shay brayed with laughter, his belly threatening to pop free from his sweat-stained shirt.

You get the idea. Spread it out so that we gradually pick up an image of the character as they interact with the world.

[Mumut]

I'd only research plants and animals if there is a reason for it. I wanted to know if a specific willow tree, only, produces Aspirin but I couldn't get anything that specific so I just said thaqt she ground the bark of a willow tree. With tansy, my daughter bought me a plant so I could taste it (use small small quantities - it is deadly in quantity) and grow it. So exact detail where it isn't needed will be boring.

[Matera the Mad]

I felt a terrible let-down when I had enough junk collected and stopped the research juggernaut for a while. I had become a Google addict. But immersing myself in it got some things worked out in the back of my head, and I know what my characters might know, and that's not bad. Very little of what I dug up has any apparent direct impact on what I write, but I need it to be there. It's like scenes that are written and then scrapped, that add a hidden depth to what is left. It's my novel, after all.

[Shweta]

Nateskate, I'm with you.
One of my MCs is... an herbalist.
Kill me now.

[Aragon]

Hey Nate, I can understand about research becoming overwhelming. I am researching about a county from its inception in 1754. This is not a dull county history wise, either. 2 of our country's founding fathers have ties there. a civil war general was born there and the county itself had an important significance to the Civil War. The county was home to 3 major Civil Rights figures, 2 colleges. A president was educated there and many other well known people. Ohh, a major historical research was done on the free black community their and W.E.B. Dubois wrote a major piece on the county.

I understand what you mean, lol. Keep your chin up. Research is both a love of writers and a bane.

[greatfish]

It sounds like you're trying to get too specific in your story. I wouldn't point out any details that weren't important or unique. It's hard for a lot of writers to leave the descriptions to the reader, but most people are very good at visualizing characters for themselves. If you bog a reader down with minor, insignificant details like eye and hair color it becomes limiting. I would stick to details that are either important to the story or details that are unique, like a giant scar across someone's face.

[Willowmound]

One of my MCs is... an herbalist.

I used to be a herbalist. Smoked tons of the stuff!

:D

[zornhau]

Even with specialist characters, it's usually best to evoke rather than go into detail. Technobabble is technobabble: "Hmmm. Lesser Grebewort.. that should do the trick."

Also, it's fantasy. You can just make up the plants, or their names, at least for the time being. Draft the novel, then read it over making a note of research questions.

[Use Her Name]

I don't understand though, if your epic fantasy story is set on another planet or in a alternate world or something. Usually plants have folk names either related to the way it looks (shape of leaves) like Goosefoot, Bottle Brush Plant, or the known or percieved herbal (or magical) use of the plant, Wolvesbane (wolves dont like it) Henbane (hens don't like it). If you have animals named Neufs, why not have Neuf's Foot, or Neufsbane?

[ToddWBush]

For your research question, it helps to actually enjoy research. I was lucky enough to be born with that attribute. Then I got a degree in history where I was taught how to research efficiently.

As to your description of characters by hair and eye color... why do you need to do it? Several writers have done quite well for themselves by not giving characters any descriptions at all save for age, race, and gender. They leave the "mental image" of the character to the reader. Unless it's material to the story, why even bother?

Of course, I don't even take my own advice, so what do I know?

[donroc]

I always liked one of Steinbeck's descriptions for brevity: "Mama Torres, a lean, dry woman ....."

[Tasmin21]

My current WIP draws heavily on Greek mythology. Which is great, because there's tons of info on it. But it's also bad, because nobody agrees on any of it.

"Yes, so-and-so fathered whatshername, but it could also have been whoziwhatzit down the road, and whatsername might also be the same as flibbetigibit, just evolved some as time went on..."

[Phaeal]

The great thing about fantasy is that you can make up your own flora and fauna. ;)

Actually, I find research no problem in the age of Google. Lately I've used it to look up a lot of info on antiquarian bookselling and real-life arcane tomes, and I got more than I could use in under an hour.

Deep research, on the other hand, the kind you need to do to write historical fiction (including F and SF), still sends me to the library and the bookstore. I'm immersing myself now in colonial Massachusetts, 1680-1695, and gotta read, read, read seriously hefty books for that. ;)

For the fantastic flora and fauna, you shouldn't need to go beyond the Internet, though some paper field guides could help you, say, one on Trees, one on Flowers (which will get you all the herbaceous plants most readily ID'd by flower), one on Birds, and one on Mammals. Throw in Reptiles and Amphibians, Insects, and Fish if those are important to you.

[Danger Jane]

Nateskate, I'm with you.
One of my MCs is... an herbalist.
Kill me now.

Word.

Luckily, the other MC doesn't know what to call anything. It's pretty much all just generic "plant" or "animal", when she pays attention at all.. If I feel like getting exotic, I put an adjective in front of it.

[mscelina]

Herbalist? Guilty. Fortunately, someone gave me a cookbook a long time ago about growing and harvesting herbs, their traditional uses and recipes using them. That helped a lot.

As for using mythological bases for your work--guilty again. However, I usually pick one source material (Ovid's Metamorphoses, for example, or if (as in Asphodel) it's the Trojan war, then I restrict myself to the Iliad and the Odyssey or the Aenied and use an amalgamation of all three sources for my world-building. Greco-Roman mythology can be very confusing, particularly if you are not using original classical source material, so I found it better to stick to just one definitive source.

[BlueLucario]

Funny, I was just reading several posts about something like this.

If you want you can describe your main character and some other extremely important characters, but it's not mandatory in writing. If you're going to do it, do it on page one. The readers have an imagination, so let them visualize things on their own. They would really appreciate it.

But it's really creepy to have a reader visualize a character as something she doesn't even look like. My character isn't blonde! Ewww!

[tehuti88]

Perhaps you should research the major things that you're CERTAIN you'll need to know to get the main plot and such right. Then, write the story. THEN, find out the smaller, not-as-important details (for example, the plant names) that you still need to fill in the tiny blanks, and do so. That way you can get both the story and the research done without getting bogged down in a bunch of facts that might not even be important to the plot itself.

I write fantasy too, but it's based on Ojibwa culture and mythology, and utilizes some real things and settings. Thus, some research is necessary to not sound like a total moron. I would have, say, a scene with a voyageur canoe, for example, and I wouldn't know things like how long is this thing?--how many people does it seat?--what song would the voyageurs be singing? These details were important enough that I wanted to include them--but NOT important enough that the plot itself hinged on them. So I wrote it either vague or just using what I thought I knew and continued with the story. When I went back to check over that chapter, THAT was when I looked into the details of how long and spacious the canoe is and what the voyageurs were singing. I. e., the story continued even in my ignorance, and I didn't get bogged down in the little details.

It would be a whole other story if I didn't know that voyageurs used canoes because this would severely hamper the plot and the story's authenticity--that's a bit of MAJOR research that should be covered before the story is written. Ditto with your own story. If there's a particular plant or whatever that you KNOW is going to be pivotal to the plot, research that now, but ignore the others that are just in there to give the story more detail. Write the story. Then, if you want more details, do the minor research.

That's how it works for me, at least. Then again, this is a subject I'm terribly interested in, so it doesn't feel like research. :D

I'm not sure why you're seeking lots of ways to describe hair/eye color, etc. If you get too creative with that, it will risk sounding silly. ("Her hair was the color of a phoenix's wing, of the fire of a sunset, of burning passion..." You see what I mean. Sometimes red is just red.)

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.


I hate to drag POV/perspective into this, but... if the reader knows someone's name, and the narrator knows their name, what's all this hair and eye crap?

Do we have wind and rain or something? Some scalp wounds, maybe? Does the reader know or care about what flowers and trees they pass; do you know enough about ecosystems to keep out of trouble with all these species?

[Nateskate]

It may help to consider other ways to describe characters besides hair and eyes. People have many different defining little things about them: like shape, costume, voice, behavior, movement, etc. Limiting yourself to hair and eye color is what's tying you down here. You know lots of people in your life, I'm sure. Try describing each of them without allowing yourself to use hair and eyes. I bet you'll be surprised at what you come up with.

Thanks for the tip.

[Nateskate]

Sometimes if it isn't the main ensemble of characters, I don't go into too much detail of eye color, etc. I want the reader to be able to use their imagination. But, if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can always use the landscape/scenery to help. 'The sun caught in his green eyes, giving them an amber hue." Lame, but a quick example. Beak like nose is another example, instead of always focusing on the eyes. And if you have more than one species of characters, for instance elf, you don't have to mention the dead give away of the narrow ears. Give the reader some intelligent credit :P

And as for landscape itself, don't worry about getting so detailed that you leave nothing left for the reader to imagine. If you paint the picture too vivid, you take away their ability to use their imagination and what they might have seen in their head might conflict with what you beautifully described, and it doesn't jive and the book may not be as intriguing to the reader.

Also, not sure if you are even doing this, but environments don't always have to be spelled out in one paragraph, which doing that tends to fall into the repetitive trap you're talking about. So instead, wrap your environment around what's happening.

An arrow pierced the moonlit sky and zipped over the luscious canopy of trees. Leroy hobbled to the next knotted oak and wiped the sweat from his leathery face. One more ogre to go, he thought, gearing up his bow for the next shot. His cracked fingers curled over the atlatl, numb from the frigid breeze.

Totally pulled that out, so it may not be the best example, but in it the reader establishes it's night time, he's in a forest, and it's really cold.

For what it's worth I like your writing and don't think your example is lame at all.

[Nateskate]

I always liked one of Steinbeck's descriptions for brevity: "Mama Torres, a lean, dry woman ....."


Love this description. If only thoughts like this rolled off my pen.

[IdiotsRUs]

I hate to drag POV/perspective into this, but... if the reader knows someone's name, and the narrator knows their name, what's all this hair and eye crap?

Do we have wind and rain or something? Some scalp wounds, maybe? Does the reader know or care about what flowers and trees they pass; do you know enough about ecosystems to keep out of trouble with all these species?

I agree to an extent. If the POV character would notice eye colour ( because, oh she fancies him, or he's got purple eyes or something) then you'd describe it from her POV. What she sees and how she sees it. It is only described if she would notice it.

Same with plants etc. My MC might say 'ooh look there's a pretty blue flower' but she won't know its name. ( Actually she wouldn't even say that. She doesn't really notice flowers. Trees are just things to avoid when riding a horse, although she can tell the difference from evergreens and deciduous)

Unless your going omni, it's all about what your POV character would a) notice and b) know. Even if you are doing omni, you probably don't need more than a couple of plant's names unless they feature heavily in your plot.

Have you got addicted to research? That's me...I enjoy it too much, and then never get round to you know, actually writing the damn thing.

[Nateskate]

I'm going to answer a couple of the comments on "Why?" I'm sure some here can already relate, and others will at some point.

Part of the problem is that I created a very large story already. I'm not doing the research on the way forward- which would have saved the effort; I'm doing it on the rewrites while fleshing it out.

Why does it matter? Why not stick to a few main characters and leave the rest general. The story is already written and the main characters already exist.

When I first talked to the publisher, I never mentioned the length of the series, because I didn't want to intimidate them. However, they seemed favorable to a Harry Potter lengthed series, which was a plus to them, which course this is on.

However, the scope of the story is more like Lord of the Rings in complexity, which also means the story has more than one protagonist going in multiple directions. Each book has to stand alone and therefore multiple characters must be so compelling readers love or hate them enough to stay with the story.

There will be romance and romantic interests for multiple characters. So, the reader has to see these characters through the other's eyes.

Much of the story takes place in forests, hunter and prey, search and rescue, displaced from wars. The settings vary from north to south, natural and mythical.

Goldilocks- Too much, too little, and just right.

I realize there's a middle ground somewhere- enough description, but not so much as to bog down the story. But since there are also the potential of movies, I have to make sure that people can see this world and the people, and not just the publishers but people who will see glimpses only. "This is what the city should look like. Does this guy look more like Johnny Depp or Clive Owen, starts to matter.

There are two places with a green hue- one is emerald and the other gangrene, life and death, welcome and horrific. So I just can't leave it at "green". Of course, I've created my own dilema, lol- I only know so many 'greens'. But I sense others here also feel these kinds of pressures.

[Nateskate]

I'm going to answer a couple of the comments on "Why?" I'm sure some here can already relate, and others will at some point.

Part of the problem is that I created a very large story already. I'm not doing the research on the way forward- which would have saved the effort; I'm doing it on the rewrites while fleshing it out.

Why does it matter? Why not stick to a few main characters and leave the rest general. The story is already written and the main characters already exist.

When I first talked to the publisher, I never mentioned the length of the series, because I didn't want to intimidate them. However, they seemed favorable to a Harry Potter lengthed series, which was a plus to them, which course this is on.

However, the scope of the story is more like Lord of the Rings in complexity, which also means the story has more than one protagonist going in multiple directions. Each book has to stand alone and therefore multiple characters must be so compelling readers love or hate them enough to stay with the story.

There will be romance and romantic interests for multiple characters. So, the reader has to see these characters through the other's eyes.

Much of the story takes place in forests, hunter and prey, search and rescue, displaced from wars. The settings vary from north to south, natural and mythical.

Goldilocks- Too much, too little, and just right.

I realize there's a middle ground somewhere- enough description, but not so much as to bog down the story. But since there are also the potential of movies, I have to make sure that people can see this world and the people, and not just the publishers but people who will see glimpses only. "This is what the city should look like. Does this guy look more like Johnny Depp or Clive Owen, starts to matter.

There are two places with a green hue- one is emerald and the other gangrene, life and death, welcome and horrific. So I just can't leave it at "green". Of course, I've created my own dilema, lol- I only know so many 'greens'. But I sense others here also feel these kinds of pressures.

[IdiotsRUs]

"This is what the city should look like. Does this guy look more like Johnny Depp or Clive Owen, starts to matter.

No matter how much you describe your character -- all your readers will picture him in their head differently. There is nothing you can do about this.

Much of the story takes place in forests, hunter and prey, search and rescue, displaced from wars. The settings vary from north to south, natural and mythical.


This does not mean you must describe every blade of grass. Give enough so that the reader can make his own picture, then leave it.

Tolkien described things in minute detail -- which is why a lot of fantasy readers can't actually make it through the books, and those that can, when they re-read, skim large parts. ETA: put it like this: I love LOTR enough I have the flag of the Rohirrim tattooed on my shoulder. You caouln't pay me enough not to skim parts. The Dead Marshes? How many pages do we need saying 'it was a yukky place'? Could it have been done in half the words, and been just as yukky?? Yes.

There are two places with a green hue- one is emerald and the other gangrene, life and death, welcome and horrific. So I just can't leave it at "green". Then don't describe them as 'green', describe the atmosphere, the smell, the way the inhabitants behave.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Hey, look, no ofence, but the movie, if anyone cares to make one, is none of your business. Whoever the company sells the rights to (if they choose to do so), will make all the decisions. This person has dark hair? They will think it's better blond.

Your mention of setting brings up the fact that more details might be necessary.

Anyway, even an experienced herbalist or tracker or soldier will not walk through the forest conciously identifying every plant they see.

As to "hue", what has this hue? Why the monochromatics? If each place has one hue, then everything is the same color. That's what "hue" is. Now, if there's a light tint, from sunlight color or something, this might make more sense.

As to "romance", real lovers don't go around writing odes to their partners hair-color. Even if each section is from a single (as opposed to omni) perspective, you'll only have to mention features a few times, and you'd best stick to one description.

[shebitme]

Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

well, why are you even bothering to describe hair and eye color of EVERY character? oftentimes i dont even bother. let the reader fill in the blanks; the reader doesnt need to be force-fed every detail, down to the character's dick size.

After all, i like brunettes; you may prefer blondes. If you make your beautiful main female character have blonde hair, then I, as a reader, will be a little less fond of her (in my mind). if you let me imagine her my way she'll be perfect. See?

And if you do too much detail, you will get bogged down with words; the reader will know every item in the main character's wardrobe, but that's not relevant. The plot is relevant. the actions are relevant. the conflict is relevant. everything else serves that.

[BlueLucario]

well, why are you even bothering to describe hair and eye color of EVERY character? oftentimes i dont even bother. let the reader fill in the blanks; the reader doesnt need to be force-fed every detail, down to the character's dick size.
.

Details like THAT would make me want to stop reading. :(

[Shweta]

Even with specialist characters, it's usually best to evoke rather than go into detail. Technobabble is technobabble: "Hmmm. Lesser Grebewort.. that should do the trick."
Depends on context, and what you're doing with the character.
If their expertise is a quirk or a convenient plot-fix, sure. But if it's a part of the story, you can't just bs it.

Also, it's fantasy. You can just make up the plants, or their names, at least for the time being. Draft the novel, then read it over making a note of research questions.

Also, it's for fantasy fans. Some of whom will know about this stuff and call you on your ecology or something if you just make stuff up. It's easier to spin off real-world stuff, really.

[Matera the Mad]

ChristaCarol13 -- I like that "one more ogre to go" - LOL - but I overlooked this before, a tired eye must have skipped: One more ogre to go, he thought, gearing up his bow for the next shot. His cracked fingers curled over the atlatl, numb from the frigid breeze. If he is using a bow, where does the atlatl come in? (since this thread is about research ;) ) It does set the scene nicely; a cold, moonlit night, but not winter, all in a couple of sentences with no fat. :)

The oddest thing about my research trek was that it led to my falling in love with a place I will never see except in photographs, and the locale forced me into a scenario for the sequel that requires even more research. Keeps me out of mischief, I guess.

[Chris Grey]

Solution: kill any characters who are gardeners, farmers, or herbalists.

Anway, it seems there are really two issues at discussion here:

1 - Research
2 - Description

Second thing first. There's a lot of good advice here, most of it better than what I'll give, but I recall reading that you should limit yourself to three adjectives when describing something important-- or five, or even seven, but always aim for an odd number. Two works, one works. It might not be the best, but you'll get in the habit of making concise, defining descriptions.

Research? I think UJ had a method (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82387&postcount=100)that might help:
When you're getting set to write a story set in a particular time or place, you need to become an Instant Expert on the subject. Here's what you do. Go to the Children's Room in your local library and read a couple of recent kids' books on the subject. That'll get you up to speed, give you an idea of the shape of the material you'll need, and an introduction to the terms and people.

Now go to the adult section, and start reading the adult books on the subject. Start with the big survey books. The Oxford Book of _____ for example. Read only the chapters you need. It's easy to get distracted. Take notes.

Then go to the specialty books. Read the parts that you need (and you will know which parts those are from your previous reading), paying attention to the footnotes (the footnotes are where learned professors float their crackpot theories, or bitch about other learned professors -- footnotes are great fun). Take more notes.
Okay, so you're only looking for plants and trees and whatever. It might still work, at least giving you an idea of what kind of plants you have in such-and-such an area, then you can get something like the AMA Handbook to Plants You Should Not Eat or something to fill in the rest.

[Danger Jane]

As for using mythological bases for your work--guilty again. However, I usually pick one source material (Ovid's Metamorphoses, for example, or if (as in Asphodel) it's the Trojan war, then I restrict myself to the Iliad and the Odyssey or the Aenied and use an amalgamation of all three sources for my world-building. Greco-Roman mythology can be very confusing, particularly if you are not using original classical source material, so I found it better to stick to just one definitive source.

Of course, you can, y'know...pick and choose :tongue

In my classical research, I've found that it gets an awful lot less confusing when I stop trying in vain to "start with the basics" on Wikipedia and head straight to the poems, epics, and genealogies themselves. Then I pick and choose.

(For the record, I have nothing against Wikipedia. The mythology entries are just incredibly confusing.)

[Danger Jane]

Anyway, even an experienced herbalist or tracker or soldier will not walk through the forest conciously identifying every plant they see.

No, of course not. But sometimes, yes, my MC does name a plant or two. It adds to her depth of character, because she notices things like that which the other POV character doesn't, and it adds to the atmosphere of the scene. Unfortunately, I don't live where my story takes place, so I'm not very familiar with the native flora there, and I have a tough time putting names of plants with images of them for whatever reason. So the research is a bummer sometimes. I don't know how anyone could list off every species their MC walks past, personally. Huge creativity drain.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

No, of course not. But sometimes, yes, my MC does name a plant or two. It adds to her depth of character, because she notices things like that which the other POV character doesn't, and it adds to the atmosphere of the scene. Unfortunately, I don't live where my story takes place, so I'm not very familiar with the native flora there, and I have a tough time putting names of plants with images of them for whatever reason. So the research is a bummer sometimes. I don't know how anyone could list off every species their MC walks past, personally. Huge creativity drain.

Pretty much what I was saying.

[Faolmor]

In my story, characters refer often to plants they use (eg momassi...a tree, the leaves of which are boiled to make an analgesic tea; ferrin...a plant, the stem of which is snapped and the sap used as an antiseptic). I just make them up - then I can control how they are used.

I figure my civilisation is 4 thousand years old...it'll be common knowledge that they know what these plants are, where they're found, and how to use them. If I slot them neatly into conversation, the reader will work it out for themselves, based on how the characters use them.

Just because YOU don't know what their plants are used for...doesn't mean your characters don't. So, let them guide you.

[Nateskate]

No matter how much you describe your character -- all your readers will picture him in their head differently. There is nothing you can do about this.


This does not mean you must describe every blade of grass. Give enough so that the reader can make his own picture, then leave it.

Tolkien described things in minute detail -- .

I do actually agree and appreciate your advice. I got bogged down in some of Tolkien's descriptions, though he's still my favorite fantasy author. Honestly, I had to work through his books before I began to love them. But when he hits the nail on the head, he's great- describing Mordor and Morgoth's lair.

I think the Silmarillion is the greatest story, but few (relative to LOTR) readers will have the patience to read it, and I understand why. In truth, a paraphrased version of the Silmarillion would sell ten times more, and be more reader friendly, but I love the story enough to read it as is.

Twain is another favorite.

[Nateskate]

Hey, look, no ofence, but the movie, if anyone cares to make one, is none of your business. Whoever the company sells the rights to (if they choose to do so), will make all the decisions. This person has dark hair? They will think it's better blond.

Your mention of setting brings up the fact that more details might be necessary.

Anyway, even an experienced herbalist or tracker or soldier will not walk through the forest conciously identifying every plant they see.

As to "hue", what has this hue? Why the monochromatics? If each place has one hue, then everything is the same color. That's what "hue" is. Now, if there's a light tint, from sunlight color or something, this might make more sense.

As to "romance", real lovers don't go around writing odes to their partners hair-color. Even if each section is from a single (as opposed to omni) perspective, you'll only have to mention features a few times, and you'd best stick to one description.

No offense taken. I'm in an odd situation. I found the movie producer before getting a publishing offer. I have never really talked about this because they asked me not to until things move further north. There have been delays that neither of us have foreseen. But part of the reason they want books two and three- when Book one isn't even out yet, is for the movie people to begin making plans, which is probably why I'm slightly nervous about the quality of books two and three. This complicates things because the movie producer will read these and they have to stay in my corner for this to move forward. Bad books = end of dreams. I don't believe that will happen, but I don't take this lightly.

I will say this (teaser), but I won't share the rest of this story until things get closer to publishing. It started when I wrote a Thank You note to WETA, and I thought I was talking to a tech and was actually talking to an executive movie producer. (Not Peter Jackson)

It's a great story and I can't wait to tell it.

[Nateskate]

Depends on context, and what you're doing with the character.
If their expertise is a quirk or a convenient plot-fix, sure. But if it's a part of the story, you can't just bs it.



Also, it's for fantasy fans. Some of whom will know about this stuff and call you on your ecology or something if you just make stuff up. It's easier to spin off real-world stuff, really.

So true. I had a BETA reader that loved the story but questioned my Time Lines- they do the math in their heads. I already found myself forgetting one character's hair color from book to book.

[Nateskate]

Solution: kill any characters who are gardeners, farmers, or herbalists.

Anway, it seems there are really two issues at discussion here:

1 - Research
2 - Description

Second thing first. There's a lot of good advice here, most of it better than what I'll give, but I recall reading that you should limit yourself to three adjectives when describing something important-- or five, or even seven, but always aim for an odd number. Two works, one works. It might not be the best, but you'll get in the habit of making concise, defining descriptions.

Research? I think UJ had a method (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82387&postcount=100)that might help:
Okay, so you're only looking for plants and trees and whatever. It might still work, at least giving you an idea of what kind of plants you have in such-and-such an area, then you can get something like the AMA Handbook to Plants You Should Not Eat or something to fill in the rest.

Lol- I love your answer!!!

[zornhau]

Depends on context, and what you're doing with the character.
If their expertise is a quirk or a convenient plot-fix, sure. But if it's a part of the story, you can't just bs it.

Also, it's for fantasy fans. Some of whom will know about this stuff and call you on your ecology or something if you just make stuff up. It's easier to spin off real-world stuff, really.

Yes and no. It's like good literary martial arts - the shape has to be right but the details can be fantasy.

By analogy with literary Martial Arts*, I'd suggest that if you want to write a herbalist, you need to know about concoctions, decoctions, poltices and infusions and... all that hippy stuff. So, when your character grabs a bunch of lesser grebewort, they don't just "kind of mush it up and rub it into the wound".

*To write martial arts scenes, you probably need to know some martial arts body mechanics from somewhere, and a little about what weapons do to different kinds of armour, and to the human body. You also need to know about the psychology and physiology of combat. But the weapons and the details of the combat - you can just evoke that, or make it up.

[Mythica]

Researching is one of the most fun parts about writing! I am a huge history and linguistics dork, so I eat this stuff up.

One of my WIP is a book that spans about three thousand years from a point in ancient Mesopotamia to the Great Fire of Rome. I've learned a great deal of Sumerian for the book, too. Just the spoken language, though. Cuneiform is just a bunch of chicken scratch to me.

I hope everything works out for you Nakeskate!! How exciting :D :D

[Mythica]

well, why are you even bothering to describe hair and eye color of EVERY character? oftentimes i dont even bother. let the reader fill in the blanks; the reader doesnt need to be force-fed every detail, down to the character's dick size.


Works for Laurell K Hamilton :Shrug:

[Shweta]

Yes and no. It's like good literary martial arts - the shape has to be right but the details can be fantasy.

Maybe in a secondary world, though even that runs into the smeerp problem. If it's a ginger poultice, calling it lesser grebewort is not going to help. Especially if they have ginger tea.

However, my story's an alternate earth fantasy, so many of the plants just are the same. It's sort of daunting. :Shrug: It's also sort of fun :)