How many scenes would a 90k book have?

[Bayley]

On average, how many scenes would you expect to find in a book with around 90,000 words. I know it's hugely variable, but I was just curious as I am outlining my second novel (I'm halfway through writing the first) and I think it will be too long. I know 90k is close to the maximum a unpublished author could normally get an agent for, although there have been a few exceptions.

The thing is, I don't want to write 200k, only to have to cut out half the book. It would make more sense to cut things out at the outline.

So I was just wondering how many scenes a book around 90k would have (I would also like the know the word count for each scene, but I can calcuate that using the word count for the total novel and the number of scenes).

Very grateful for any help.

[brokenfingers]

It sounds like you would benefit from The Marshall Plan For Novel Writing (http://www.amazon.com/Marshall-Plan-Novel-Writing/dp/1582970629/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215096429&sr=1-1). According to it, a 90,000 word book should have 72 sections (scenes) broken down like this:

Beginning: 18

Middle: 32

End: 18

For a total of 72.

Good luck with your writing. :)

[Mel]

I'd think that would be awfully stifling, but that's just me. I look at it the same way as a chapter, it's as long or short as it needs to be.

[Jake Barnes]

How many scenes would a 90k book have? Depends how long your scenes are. Lee Child, in some of the older Jack Reacher novels would have about thirty chapters with a half dozen scenes per chapter for 180 scenes. Now he has shorter chapters, more chapters, but fewer scenes. Oh, and 18 + 32 + 18 = 68.

[Use Her Name]

I think it is up to the length of the scenes, the style of the writer and so on, there is no rule.

[maestrowork]

42.

[CaroGirl]

People count scenes?

Scenes are variable enough to be as long as a chapter and as short as a single word. I don't think worrying about counting your scenes is important or productive.

[Bayley]

I'd think that would be awfully stifling, but that's just me. I look at it the same way as a chapter, it's as long or short as it needs to be.

It's not like I'm going to follow it exactly. Like 'I can't have the scene where they catch the murderer as I can only have 68 scenes in the book'. The reason I want to know is if I had 324 scenes, then it would be worth condensing dramatically before I write the book.

I guess I'm just afraid I'll end up writing 400k and ending up having to delete 300k.

[willietheshakes]

1.

Or more.

It depends, really.

[maestrowork]

It's not like I'm going to follow it exactly. Like 'I can't have the scene where they catch the murderer as I can only have 68 scenes in the book'. The reason I want to know is if I had 324 scenes, then it would be worth condensing dramatically before I write the book.

I guess I'm just afraid I'll end up writing 400k and ending up having to delete 300k.


I hear what you're saying. There are no definite number but one can get too carried away and have too many. If you have 400 scenes in a 90K-word novel, then your scenes are probably too short and too rushed.

I'd say you need to have at least a page or two for each scene, just to play it out. Obviously, you can have shorter and longer ones, but I'd say no shorter than a couple of paragraphs.

[Charlie Horse]

I'm sorry, but are there really writers who think like that? When I start writing I have no idea how many scenes my book is going to have. And when I'm done it has as many scenes as it takes to tell the story, which, by the way, I don't think I would ever go back and count.

I'm not trying to be mean, but it all just seems quite irrelevant.

[brokenfingers]

Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.

And while Marshall's book doesn't suit my style, and while I agree that there are no concrete "rules" as far as amounts of scenes go - some people benefit from a rigid structure when first starting out to write a novel.

One of the most crippling dilemmas for beginning writers is the fact that there are TOO MANY decisions. It can paralyze some writers and hamper their writing.

So while I wouldn't recommend Marshall's book for everyone (including me), it is a very structured, methodical book and some might find it useful to get a first draft out.

[Takvah]

Good grief... this is the kind of stuff that ends up making me neurotic and slows me down. That's when I have to go back to a lesson learned in my youth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSSLmZoV1T4)... it's sage I tell you, and can be applied to almost any situation... but ESPECIALLY, writing.

[CaroGirl]

Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.
That would make a really weird-sized woman. Barbie, if she were a real woman, is 36-18-33. Maybe try that.

[nevada]

42.

:roll:

[brokenfingers]

Good grief... this is the kind of stuff that ends up making me neurotic and slows me down. That's when I have to go back to a lesson learned in my youth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSSLmZoV1T4)... it's sage I tell you, and can be applied to almost any situation... but ESPECIALLY, writing.Yes, well let's not make the mistake of thinking that everybody thinks the same or writes the same or responds to everything in the same manner and so should write the same as you or I do.

Some people like structure, routine and order when beginning a daunting new task.

In the Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi didn't have Danny do Flying Crane Kicks when starting out. He had him begin with the 'Wax on, Wax off" rigid routine to help him begin.

[donroc]

Before this thread I had never encountered mention "scene" counts for novels, not even in the great Plimpton Paris Review interviews with writers in the late 1950s.

[Takvah]

Yes, well let's not make the mistake of thinking that everybody thinks the same or writes the same or responds to everything in the same manner and so should write the same as you or I do.

Some people like structure, routine and order when beginning a daunting new task.

In the Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi didn't have Danny do Flying Crane Kicks when starting out. He had him begin with the 'Wax on, Wax off" rigid routine to help him begin.

Mr. Miyagi could have learned a thing or two from ol' Booger. Imagine Pat Morita teaching Rebecca DeMornay(sp?) how to wax on and wax off on that train... hmmmmm, ok that's a pretty vile thought and I digress.... regimented and storytelling don't go together in my mind, but hey, if people think a formula will serve to sell a book... they can knock themselves out.

[Robert Farley]

Reminds me of an old joke: how many drops of water in the ocean?

One. One big drop.

But seriously, looks like you have your answer. Your question is one I think about often when watching hour dramas. How much work goes into producing the segments to time out at exactly the same time every time. Every 11 minutes or so, with usually two-minute beginning and ending, and to do it so it cuts at a part where the audience just has to stay for the next bit. How does that relate to page count, word count, and so on? I might not always like the stories, but gotta give props to the ability to write to the template.

Robert<><>

[Robert Farley]

I'm sorry, but are there really writers who think like that? When I start writing I have no idea how many scenes my book is going to have. And when I'm done it has as many scenes as it takes to tell the story, which, by the way, I don't think I would ever go back and count.

I'm not trying to be mean, but it all just seems quite irrelevant.I've encountered editors and publishers who require some kind of adherence to the "scene count." Certain things need to happen in certain areas for different kinds of books. Readers, though they don't realize it, expect this and make those books (or movies) successful. (I think that's how the scene counters come up with their statistics.) Ideally, writers will either consciously or unconsciously keep to the count in some form and will come up with something that's stood the test of at least a little time.

On the other hand, you have to remember that most great writers or great anything get that way by trampling all over the norms, even though it might have taken them years and years of trampling to get there.

Robert<><>

[Clarec]

I wouldn't know how to categorise a scene either so I've no idea how many I have or how many a book should have. I find that plotting the story and writing it the best you can is all I can do really. If it's way too long, I'll just have to chop it. If it's too short I either need to come up with a decent sub plot (no point padding for the sake of it) or hope the story is good enough to bear the small length.

I think the only thing I try to keep conscious track of is the action - I like a lot of action in the books I read and want to keep that level in anything I write. So I'm looking for a good three or four high action scenes in a book of about that length. With possibly a few more dramatic moments too, keep the pace up and keep the story moving forward.

Clare

[BlueLucario]

Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.

and that's my waist size. :D

I don't think there's a black and white answer to this. I think that depends on how you write the story.

[dwellerofthedeep]

I don't think it matters too much, but I count scenes myself. I like plotting by scene so that's what my outline consists of, rather than chapters so it's convenient for me. My first book had 132 scenes or something like that, each in a separate word document.

[BfloGal]

It depends on your own average scene length. I outline by the scene too, and I know that my scenes are on the short side (I average 1000 words per scene), so if my plotted scenes numbered 70, I'd expect the finished work to be about 70,000. If I wanted it longer, I'd have to add another twist to my plot, and try to get a few more scenes.

[JustGo]

I don't think it matters. Write as many scenes as you need to in order to tell your story, and don't worry about it unless your betas/agent/editor start complaining.

[Seif]

I don't think it matters. Write as many scenes as you need to in order to tell your story, and don't worry about it unless your betas/agent/editor start complaining.

This is exactly what I was thinking. If it fits it fits. If it work then it works.

Write out as many scenes as you think are necessary for the progression of the story etc and then rewrite. Sometimes trying to get estimates or industry standards can be too limiting and do more harm than good.

Just do it and then redo it!

[maestrowork]

Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.


That's the size of Paris Hilton's left leg.

[t0neg0d]

A 200k book could consist of 1 scene--if that's what the book calls for.

A 1k book could consist of 200 scenes--if that's what the book calls for.

How can anyone say what should or should not happen? Even trying to average it would be of no useful help to anyone. If your 120k book consists of 74 critical scenes and someone tells you (because of word count) it should be 42, are you going to cut 32 critical scenes from your book? No! You wouldn't even stop to consider it. You may laugh (a lot... like I did), but it would not effect your book in any way, shape or form.

Confused as always,

Me

[AnnieColleen]

On average, how many scenes would you expect to find in a book with around 90,000 words. I know it's hugely variable, but I was just curious as I am outlining my second novel (I'm halfway through writing the first) and I think it will be too long.

I'm in somewhat the same spot, although not concerned with length. (I'm trying to come up with a realistic schedule/goals for outlining & re-drafting.) From previously written scenes -- in the first draft, challenge scenes, etc. -- it looks like my scenes average ~800-1000 words (rough guesstimate). From that I can figure approximate numbers, not to stick to rigidly, but just so that I don't feel like the process will go on forever!

[TPCSWR]

Twice as many as half the amount of scenes necessary. Or four times a quarter of the necessary amount.

Whichever you prefer.

[Sage]

How many words in the author's average scene? Divide 90K by that. That's how many scenes :D

[Straka]

42.

curiously that's the answer to life as well...

[Chris Grey]

"Blah blah a poem scene is what it means to me" is nice and all, people, but hardly answers the question.

The question being "I outline by scene, how much stuff can I expect to fit in 90k words?"

It depends on your own average scene length. I outline by the scene too, and I know that my scenes are on the short side (I average 1000 words per scene), so if my plotted scenes numbered 70, I'd expect the finished work to be about 70,000. If I wanted it longer, I'd have to add another twist to my plot, and try to get a few more scenes.

Between this and Sage's post.

Math, really.

[Bayley]

Thanks guys for all your help. I know it's a little bit obsessive to check all these things, but I worry about everything. I really appreciate all of the help you've given.

[James D. Macdonald]

How long is a piece of rope?

[BfloGal]

Thanks guys for all your help. I know it's a little bit obsessive to check all these things, but I worry about everything. I really appreciate all of the help you've given.

Hey, I don't think it's obsessive at all. It makes sense to try to figure it out at the beginning -- it seems better to me to do a little planning then end up with a 200,000 word whopper that you have to spend months editing down, or a novella when you were trying for a novel.

Chefs are great artists with food, but I'm sure they sit down with their calculators and figure out if they have enough Kobe beef and black truffles for the size of their dinner party before they begin cooking.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

On average, how many scenes would you expect to find in a book with around 90,000 words. I know it's hugely variable, but I was just curious as I am outlining my second novel (I'm halfway through writing the first) and I think it will be too long. I know 90k is close to the maximum a unpublished author could normally get an agent for, although there have been a few exceptions.

The thing is, I don't want to write 200k, only to have to cut out half the book. It would make more sense to cut things out at the outline.

So I was just wondering how many scenes a book around 90k would have (I would also like the know the word count for each scene, but I can calcuate that using the word count for the total novel and the number of scenes).

Very grateful for any help.


Enough to make 90,000 words. :)

Honestly speaking, the amount of scenes you put into a book is not going to matter too much, because scenes vary in length according to the story, the author, and likely other factors. A guide might be able to help, but I've used formulas that worked with previous manuscripts, and did not get to 90k with newer pieces. :Shrug:

I don't know what draft you're in, but I do know that story should come first. If you're in a first draft stage, don't worry about length right now. Just write your story. If you're in a later draft, then you can tweak it to either add or take away from the manuscript as needed.

I wish I could be of more help, but this is what I've experienced. Just write your story, and see where it takes you. If you need to add to it or remove something from it, do so after the first draft is finished.

In any case have fun, and best wishes to you. :)

[Michael Parks]

For some reason I can't imagine there being standards for this: scene count is hyper-dependent on the story. And all stories unravel differently.

[Karen Duvall]

Bayley, I understand exactly what you're saying. And everyone's responses make sense. If you need a guideline to follow, which I think is a really good idea if you're not an experienced writer, you might want to think about plot points instead of scenes. A plot point may take 2 or 3 scenes to accomplish, or only one, but at least the plot points will help you gauge how long your book may end up being. It's not a perfect science, but a good guide to help keep you on track.

For example, let's say one of your plot points is a jewel heist. It may take 3 scenes to make it happen, and the scenes can cross over chapters, too, if you want. The burglars planning the heist may be one scene, then executing it is another, then their being pursued by the police is the 3rd. It's one plot point but it takes 3 scenes to accomplish it. Looking at it that way might help. Good luck!

[Matera the Mad]

I don't count scenes. I count words, and I number chapters, but only the word count counts. A scene is there because it is necessary, it adds something to plot and/or character development. Nothing else matters. :)

[AnnieColleen]

Sure, but knowing (estimating) number of scenes in advance can be helpful in planning out words.

[SPMiller]

My scenes tend to fall between 750 and 2250 words, each focusing on a unique, easily-definable conflict. Sequels tend to be shorter, and any general-purpose narrative linking the two or summarizing important but non-dramatized actions is shorter still.

Asking "how many" scenes there are in a novel ignores the presence of those other types of narrative.

[blacbird]

People count scenes?

Scenes are variable enough to be as long as a chapter and as short as a single word. I don't think worrying about counting your scenes is important or productive.

I'm a little tardy making a comment here, but I have to second this. Very succinct and correct. "Scenes" commonly merge into other "scenes", seamlessly, with no clear boundaries. If you're working with very discrete scenes, you'll wind up with a novel that is episodic, which some people (especially some agents), don't much like. Now, there are episodic novels that work very well. Cormac McCarthy is often episodic to me, his novels reading like a slow train moving past, one discrete car at a time, connected, but clearly separate. Blood Meridian is a good example of this technique. But most writers use various forms of interconnection in narrative that simply don't allow everything to be broken down into discrete "scenes".

So don't worry about it. Write the dam story.

caw

[a_sharp]

Let's say you come up with the need for 73 scenes. Or 77, or 69, whatever. And you start writing the book. Are you going to block out scenes like a storyboard artist? Only with words?

Say you write the first 50,000 words and you count your scenes. How in blue blazes do you do this? Oop, there's scene 27, now here's the end of 28, no that's not the end yet.

But seriously folks. Say you get to the end and you've got 90k words and it's balanced out pretty well, and you query and get a request for a full and your agent writes back and says, "Thanks, but not my type of scene count." Yeah, like she had time to count scenes.

Nobody cares, and if you get hung up on ANY kind of counts, your work is going to lose rhythm, flow, cadence, coherence, all those esoteric things that can't be quantified.

So I'm with Ray. 42.

[Gillhoughly]

On average, how many scenes would you expect to find in a book with around 90,000 words.

As few as necessary to tell the story.

I think you need to hit the library and read other writers to see how they do it. You'll see patterns emerging, especially in the genre books like mysteries or romances.

At this point it sounds like you're working very hard to invent the wheel, when others have already done all the hard work. You just need a look at the blueprints to see how to make your own.

All good writers have to be insatiable readers.

The trick is learning from those other writers you're busy reading.

[simplyaven]

I didn't even know these things should be counted/or should not. Is it true that an author never published before is supposed to write up to 90K ? Is it a rule or it depends on the agent/publisher/book?

[Bayley]

A plot point may take 2 or 3 scenes to accomplish, or only one, but at least the plot points will help you gauge how long your book may end up being. It's not a perfect science, but a good guide to help keep you on track.

Looking at it that way might help. Good luck!

Sounds like a more exact science then counting scenes. I'll remember plot points. Thank you for the suggestion.

Very succinct and correct. "Scenes" commonly merge into other "scenes", seamlessly, with no clear boundaries.
So don't worry about it.

The way I count scenes is a certain place or time. For instance, driving to where ever they are going is one scene, at the destination is another, even if the conversation continues. And if sitting at the computer is one scene, looking at the clock three hours later is a new scene. But, I agree, when writing my book I don't use scenes, I just prefer to outline by scene as opposed to chapter.

Let's say you come up with the need for 73 scenes. Or 77, or 69, whatever.

Nobody cares, and if you get hung up on ANY kind of counts, your work is going to lose rhythm, flow, cadence, coherence, all those esoteric things that can't be quantified.


Firstly, I only wanted a number so I could do around 30 either way. If the average is 72 then I know not to do 385. I won't do exactly 72, I'm happy to do between 102 and 42. I just like having rough guidelines.

I only use it in my outline so I get a rough idea of how many words I am going to write and how those words are spread throughout the book. I won't write them like scenes in the book, just in the outline.



I think you need to hit the library and read other writers to see how they do it. At this point it sounds like you're working very hard to invent the wheel, when others have already done all the hard work. You just need a look at the blueprints to see how to make your own.



Why didn't I think of that? That is so obvious and so brilliant. I can't believe I didn't think of it.

I didn't even now these things should be counted/or should not. Is it true that an author never published before is supposed to write up to 90K ? Is it a rule or it depends on the agent/publisher/book?

That isn't exactly what I said. Most books are between 80-100k and it is very rare for an unpublished author to get a book over 100k published. Authors can write as much as they like, but if they write less then 100k they are slightly more likely to get published. I only used 90k as it is in the middle and I write can write slightly more or slightly less and still be within the average. It isn't a rule, it's a guideline.

[James D. Macdonald]

Will you leave out a necessary scene because you're over the limit? No.

Will you add unnecessary scenes because you don't have enough? No.

I don't see how coming up with a number of scenes in advance of writing will help at all. This looks to me more like writing-avoidance behavior.

[Bayley]

Well, actually.

Will I leave out scenes if I am a lot over the limit? Yes, because that would (theoretically) mean my book would be a lot over the wordcount I am aiming for.

Will I add unnecessary scenes because I don't have anywhere near enough? Yes. If the extra information/sub plot that I use to add extra words needs new scenes.

It just depends on how far away from the average I am. I'm not intending to hit the average exactly, but I am well aware that if I am a lot out the book isn't going to be the correct length.

[James D. Macdonald]

If it helps you get words on paper, that's fine. But if it's stopping you from getting words on paper that's not fine.

For myself, I've never in my life planned the number of my scenes. If threatened with the Death Of a Thousand Lashes I still couldn't tell you how many scenes any of my books have.

If it works for you, it works. But please, make it work. Procrustes' bed isn't the best place for the Muse to rest.