What would turn you off most from this book?

[Clair Dickson]

I apologize if this is out of place. I'm quite curious though, about what would put my novel on the "You couldn't make me read this if you paid me" stack. I know that my book won't appeal to all audiences, but I wonder just which reasons are the BIG ones. (I have thick skin-- I'm just curious).

My Novel is (currently) titled "Sex and Violence." It's first person POV through the eyes of my female private eye, Bo Fexler. It's a mystery, but definetly not a cozy.

The things I think might turn people off are the following:
(One or more)
-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations
-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts

But then there are some mediating traits.
Do these affect anyone's opinion?

--While Bo is unusually attractive, she also has a severe speech impairment. She can't say R's at all and all the rest of her words are warped, with vowels all becoming dipthongs and most of her consonants coming out not-quite-right. People can't not notice it-- and some are cruel.

--Bo also is very intelligent. But people don't often see past her looks (and think ditz) or her speech impairment (and think retard). She would rather be known for her mind than her looks or speech.

--Bo may start fights or happily get into a physical altercation, but she certainly doesn't win them all. She's just as likely to lose as to win a fight. But that never stops her.

--She's rather alone, doesn't understand why anyone would want to be around her, and would give anything to understand how get along with people (without being phony.)

So, dear readers, what do you think? I'd pose this question on my blog, but the people there all LIKE Bo Fexler. =) Thanks for any feedback. I appreciate it-- seriously-- the good and the bad. I think of it as preparation for agent responses and public criticism when my novel does come out. (Someday soon, I hope!)

[Beasley]

Maybe I'm unusual, but nothing on there would turn me off as a reader. Actually based on the title of this thread I was expecting beaten kittens and baby brains (things that probably would turn me off).

Your main character sounds good, right mix of good and bad qualities. The only thing that threw me a little is the speech impediment, but only from a writing standpoint as to how that would come across on paper. I'm actually very sympathetic to characters with speech impediments, its one of those characteristics that usually garners my sympathies right away. So sounds good on paper to me.

[Matera the Mad]

Well, I'd have to say it's all in how you write her. She sounds kind of fun.

Euhh, why do you use an unreadable font for your blog?

[Clair Dickson]

Beasley-- I don't write her speech as it sounds to others. I might give a line or two to demonstrate, but thereafter her dialogue is written the same as anyone else's. It would get tedious otherwise.

Matera-- don't like the Courier, eh? I've never had any complaints on it, though I did recently learn that Arial and other sans serif fonts are generally considered better for oneline viewing. Hmm. I'll have to think that one over.

[pretticute80]

Nothing about the bio you presented turned me off. I like the fact that you made her pretty and at home with her sexuality but still able to kick butt. Not to mention her speech problem. With it so apparent, it will bring her down a peg or two for being so beautiful :)

[Scribhneoir]

From the information you've provided the only thing that turns me off is her name. Bo Fexler just sounds too much like Bowflex. I'm afraid every time I'd read her name, it would come across as a product placement. Other than that, she sounds interesting.

[Alon]

I'm not turned off at all, either. In fact, I think the motif of someone who'd rather be known for her intelligence than for her looks is a very powerful one.

[JeanneTGC]

Nothing you've written here would turn me off.

However, that isn't what matters.

What WOULD turn me off? If, once I started reading, one of these became apparent:

1. The story is dull, boring, cannot grab and/or hold my attention
2. You're seemingly against proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, sentence structure, etc.
3. You're seemingly against editing
4. The story goes nowhere
5. You are unable to suspend disbelief, keep suspension of disbelief going, or offer one too many jumps requiring too much faith on the part of the reader
6. You 'ghost in the machine' your ending/situations so there's no real cleverness involved
7. I realize that your seemingly very original character is, in fact, based on someone else's truly original character, only thinly disguised
8. Any combination of the above
9. God help me, all of the above

I don't think any of these things can be determined by your descriptions of your character. From all you've told us about her, she sounds awesome and like a character I'd love to spend time with. Unless or until I were to look at the actual novel, I couldn't tell you what would turn me off. (I would hope nothing. :D)

[Dawnstorm]

Beasley-- I don't write her speech as it sounds to others. I might give a line or two to demonstrate, but thereafter her dialogue is written the same as anyone else's. It would get tedious otherwise.

Interesting. I have the opposite intuition. I'll get used to her phonetically rendered speech impairment pretty soon, but if you don't render it phonetically, I'd maybe forget it's there and have trouble with other people's reaction to her speech (I might *know* they're reacting to her speech impairment, but it doesn't feel like it, because what's on the page looks perfectly normal). I'd definitely write it the way it sounds throughout the novel.

[scheherazade]

I think I'd only be annoyed if the character was portrayed as a caricature - "She was incredibly beautiful, super-genius, and all the men wanted her. But, alas, her warped consonants turned them all off the moment she spoke. So she tried to get as much out of them as she could without speaking." The subject matter doesn't turn me off, but if a writer tells me how beautiful and brilliant their character is, I usually expect a pretty wooden story.

Now, as long as you're showing me this more than telling me it (like, don't tell me how her luscious locks trickle down to her ample bosom; just show me the guys lining up to buy her drinks) then I'd keep reading. The more real she is - the more bitter, conniving, angsty - the more interesting she becomes, as long as you can temper that by showing her sensitivity. Does she chastise a studly man after sleeping with him, but then steal off with the dog he always kicks around? Does she protect children and the elderly? Maybe she breaks away from lending a sympathetic ear to a bartender friend so that she can coldly turn down a cocky potential suitor...

[Use Her Name]

I don't really like the speech impediment angle, because it is like the author is trying to add a non-disfiguring handicap in order to make her more likable. I don't think I like or dislike people (or feel sorry, or not) because they have speech problems. That you don't use it in the dialog would make me forget about it. So people react to it by making fun of her or something? I would forget it, and think that people were just rude, thus her snarkiness is a result of the mean way people behave in your fictional world. If people are mean to her because they can't understand what she is saying it could be different. I don't know. Anyway, it seems complicated, and that one little problem seems more trouble than it is worth (my opinion, of course).

[scribbler1382]

You seem to have some conflicting character traits there. She uses sex and her looks to get what she wants, but then she can't understand why anyone would want to be with her and she'd prefer being known for her intelligence than her looks. Nothing in the descriptions would turn me off, in themselves, but incongruities like this would.

[C.M. Daniels]

Right off the bat, the thing that bothers me most, her name.

Anything after that, so long as you don't write out her accent, is fair game.

[Paichka]

The only two things that would turn me off about this are her looks and her name. Bo Fexler just seems...eh. Odd. I like the name Bo, and I don't mind the name Fexler, but the combination is kind of like chocolate and brussel sprouts.

Also, the genre is FULL of sexy female badasses. I guess that's part of the appeal, so it wouldn't keep me from reading the book, but I also wouldn't think that it was particularly original. I'd much rather read about a girl who's wicked smart, and not superhumanly attractive, but who still manages to whoop the bad-guy's ass and get the guy at the end. I think I would also forget about the speech impediment unless it was consistently spelled out in her dialogue.

Other than that, I'd have to read the book before I could make any lasting judgements. :)

[Linda Adams]

If I were looking for a private detective novel about about a woman, I would pass over this one because Bo is more of a masculine name--there's an actor named Bo, and that's what popped into my head first thing.

Other than that, I'd really need to see what the story is about, because if the story doesn't work, the character doesn't matter.

[Willowmound]

The things I think might turn people off are the following:
(One or more)
-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot

Why would that turn anyone off?

-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations

Intriguing.

-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar

Excellent.

-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said

My type of gal.

-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts

I'm in love!


But then there are some mediating traits.
Do these affect anyone's opinion?

--While Bo is unusually attractive, she also has a severe speech impairment. She can't say R's at all and all the rest of her words are warped, with vowels all becoming dipthongs and most of her consonants coming out not-quite-right. People can't not notice it-- and some are cruel.

Ugh. Love just died.


--Bo also is very intelligent. But people don't often see past her looks (and think ditz) or her speech impairment (and think retard). She would rather be known for her mind than her looks or speech.

--Bo may start fights or happily get into a physical altercation, but she certainly doesn't win them all. She's just as likely to lose as to win a fight. But that never stops her.

--She's rather alone, doesn't understand why anyone would want to be around her, and would give anything to understand how get along with people (without being phony.)

So, dear readers, what do you think?

Well, she's interesting! Nothing here would make me not read the book.

[Manderley]

Bo seems fine (although I am a bit tired of the 'unusual attractive' characters after having seen one too many American tv show). What would stop me reading your book is the private eye mystery thing. Just not my cup of tea, you see.

[Joycecwilliams]

From the information you've provided the only thing that turns me off is her name. Bo Fexler just sounds too much like Bowflex. I'm afraid every time I'd read her name, it would come across as a product placement. Other than that, she sounds interesting.

I was going to make the same comment. So I will ditto this...

[HeronW]

I...My Novel is (currently) titled "Sex and Violence." It's first person POV through the eyes of my female private eye, Bo Fexler. It's a mystery, but definetly not a cozy.

The things I think might turn people off are the following:
(One or more)
-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations
-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts


This feels positive to me--Bo has good and bad points, & like a peacock--lovely til she opens her mouth.

Sounds like the speech problem could be related to a hearing issue--if not physical then the way she processes sounds--though that could affect eveything she hears.

I don't know how you did her dialogue to reflect her communication, that may be a bit difficult to transmit if you do her dialect the way she sounds. A little unusual accent goes along way. This could also be noticed by those around her.

I'd be interested in reading more about this person.

[Joycecwilliams]

The things I think might turn people off are the following:
(One or more)
-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
This okay, but not too original.

-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations

Does she sleep with the bad guys?
-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
I like this.
-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
This seems to contradict her intelligence...
-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts
I think she should be secure inwardly and outwardly. If she really held to her beliefs.

[shelboselby]

Wouldn't bother me. As long as she owns what she does, it seems perfectly acceptable. I think you've done a great job of keeping her from being one-sided and fake. She's got dimension to her...she's not all sexpot. I think it'd be great.

[Phaeal]

My only problem would be with the speech impediment. As others have noted, if it disappears from the dialogue entirely, I'm likely to forget about it or at least forget how severe it is.

Tough call for you: risk the invisibility of a crucial trait or figure out how to render Bo's garbled speech throughout the book without making the reader cringe as much as Bo's conversation mates.

[dwellerofthedeep]

I agree with what others have said about the speech impediment. I think it could easily be tiresome and frustrating.

However, as long as the character is consistent I think a good handling of the speech impediment could work and the rest would too.

[MelodyO]

I can only speak for myself of course - but if I picked up a book off the shelf and found out the MC was tragically hot and talked like Elmer Fudd...I would put the book back on the shelf. I find super-beautiful women in books (and movies) to be boring, and as far as physical handicaps go, a speech impediment isn't quite as usable as, let's say, House's limp for garnering sympathy and furthering character development. However, I am all about the sexy, snarky, socially awkward part. Those have always been the traits of my favourite characters. :)

[Seif]

I wouldn't read it on account of the title: 'Sex and Violence' so reeks of attention grabber and sensationalising and the description of your MC just confirms that.

Tone everything down unless your going for a comedy.

[tehuti88]

I don't see anything that would seriously detract me if the story itself was something I was interested in reading. I'm not big on sex stuff, and often roll my eyes when I see it in a story...but that's because it usually seems like it has no place there. Like, "Ah, I've included a sex scene in all my other stories, well, why not put one in here too?" (And maybe this observation is just my bias and I need to really look a bit harder at the stories themselves; maybe such scenes serve a greater purpose than I thought.) Seeing as "Sex" is right in the title of your story, I think it would be expected in the writing itself. :D

The ONE thing that might throw me is the speech impairment. If this makes her dialogue hard to read, that would irk me. I hate trying to read "dialect" writing for the very reason that I have to try so hard just to figure out what anyone is saying. If I have to pore over every word like it's in a different language (even if it's as simple as something like "Fo' sho'!"), then I'd rather not read.

You didn't mention if her impairment would make her difficult to understand (in the text) or not, so I can't say. It's just something to keep in mind. But none of the other issues would make me put the book down. (Unless there's a tavern brawl. :D I mean, come on, there are so many other places to have brawls!)

[BlueLucario]

.
--She's rather alone, doesn't understand why anyone would want to be around her, and would give anything to understand how get along with people (without being phony.)


This trait reminds me of my character.

The one with the "unusually attractive" would throw me off just slightly. She'd come off as a Mary Sue, something I don't really want to bring up right now because it's a rather silly topic.

But there are traits there that are not redeeeming, and the readers aren't going to be sympathetic of someone who uses sex to get what she wants. I do know of a blog that has some info of what I'm talking about. But I need this person's permission first.

EDIT: This is the blog. I didn't get her permission yet.

http://marianperera.blogspot.com/2008/06/when-good-characters-do-bad-things.html

(A note to the blog owner, if you wish this to be removed please let me know.)

By the way, based on what I see, there is nothing there that can make me care about Bo. In all honesty, I don't think the readers can relate to Bo either.

[Gillhoughly]

It will probably sell well.

Your MC sounds like every other MC in the current crop of urban fantasies with a female lead, though.

Most of them are sexy, but not sexually promiscuous. There are two exceptions, one is a succubus and has a reason to have lots of sex, the other is under a spell or something.

I read the succubus, because the writing is clever and she's funny.

I don't read the other as she's in a rut of one sex act after another. She's too serious, and anyway, there is better porn out there for free.

Those heroines (I know of about 7-9 of 'em) are in the science fiction/fantasy aisle; I don't notice this class of heroine in mystery. Mystery fans might take to her, but it may be an initial hard sell. You will HAVE to be a freakin' fantastic writer to make it happen.

Look at things in the long run for this character. Sex is great, but if it's in the real world she is courting life-ending STD's, herpes, and getting raped if she comes on to the wrong sorts and changes her mind.

She also courts being labeled a skanky slut by her critics. Male PIs can boink all they like, but female ones--the double standard is NOT fair, but still with us. maybe you can break some ground toward full equality.

If it turns into a long series, how will you sustain it when she loses her looks.? Plastic surgery aside, those sunny days don't go on forever.

Will all your future novels feature similar heroines? If this becomes a success, then you can end up being typecast as a writer. Stephen King writes horror. If he tried his hand at a Harlequin romance I do think the apocalypse would be upon us.

I'm not trying to quash this, but am posing the same questions an agent or editor might ask. You have to have those objections covered and be ready with smooth, upbeat answers.

I hope your gal has a genuine sense of humor. Snark is easy to write. Truly clever humor is not.

Good luck!

[Lady Cat]

I'd buy your book. I like your character's name and her attitude!

I think you'd have to watch the speech impediment though. Too much and it would start to get annoying, not enough and we'd forget it was there.

[nevada]

Also, a lot of speech impediments can be helped by speech therapists. I'd have to wonder why she wouldn't avail herself of every possible aid to fix her speech. I read some of the things you listed on your blog. I never once realized she had speech impediment and that is not good. Secondly, all dialogue gets boring really quick. I hope you're not writing the book that way. I found it jarring, to say the least.

regarding the speech impediment. If it's a conscious choice to not fix it, she better have a really good reason for it. In an episode of Cracker, there was a boy who had a severe stuttering problem, and I mean severe. Cracker told him that he could get help and the boy slowed down his speech a lot and told cracker that he'd been to therapists but that he sounded like a retard and he refused to talk like that. Combined with the volatility of the character, I totally believed that this boy would choose to be made fun of for the stuttering rather than talking extremely slow and exagerated. (When I say boy I mean man of early 20's. lol)

In all honesty, if I had picked up this book and started reading it, I would put it back when I found out she had a speech impediment. For one of two reasons. Either you never show it in dialogue, which is the case, at which point I would be annoyed at the lack of realism, or you do show it in dialogue and I don't want to deal with it, with the effort of deciphering it. So you need to walk a very thin tightrope. Show the impediment, but not so much that reading her dialogue would be deciphering code.

Everyone made some really good points. At this stage, I would not read this book. But you have to remember as well, that not everybody reads every book. You can't please all of the people, all of the time. There will be an awful lot of people who won't even open your book after reading the back cover. And there will be an awful lot of people who will.

[sunandshadow]

I think she should be secure inwardly and outwardly. If she really held to her beliefs.
This is the part that set of my internal alarm, besides her name being a bit clunky. I hate characters that go around feeling ashamed or guilty, especially if they keep doing whatever it is they feel bad about. I think, a person who does something they would really rather not do without a reason they think is really good is probably totally out of touch with what they really want and why they are doing what they are doing. And someone who does something they would really rather not do but has a really good reason should get a grip and think, well this is the best choice available, and I can do X and Y to help fix the mess I need to make, and there's no point angsting about it because this is my decision and I stand by it.

[Mharvey]

I apologize if this is out of place. I'm quite curious though, about what would put my novel on the "You couldn't make me read this if you paid me" stack. I know that my book won't appeal to all audiences, but I wonder just which reasons are the BIG ones. (I have thick skin-- I'm just curious).

My Novel is (currently) titled "Sex and Violence." It's first person POV through the eyes of my female private eye, Bo Fexler. It's a mystery, but definetly not a cozy.

The things I think might turn people off are the following:
(One or more)
-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations
-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts

But then there are some mediating traits.
Do these affect anyone's opinion?

--While Bo is unusually attractive, she also has a severe speech impairment. She can't say R's at all and all the rest of her words are warped, with vowels all becoming dipthongs and most of her consonants coming out not-quite-right. People can't not notice it-- and some are cruel.

--Bo also is very intelligent. But people don't often see past her looks (and think ditz) or her speech impairment (and think retard). She would rather be known for her mind than her looks or speech.

--Bo may start fights or happily get into a physical altercation, but she certainly doesn't win them all. She's just as likely to lose as to win a fight. But that never stops her.

--She's rather alone, doesn't understand why anyone would want to be around her, and would give anything to understand how get along with people (without being phony.)

So, dear readers, what do you think? I'd pose this question on my blog, but the people there all LIKE Bo Fexler. =) Thanks for any feedback. I appreciate it-- seriously-- the good and the bad. I think of it as preparation for agent responses and public criticism when my novel does come out. (Someday soon, I hope!)

Hi Clair -

It's hard, of course, to judge a character or a novel based on a single post like this. But, I will do my best.

The thing that would turn me off, foremost, is a female protagonist who is sexy and loves to kick butt. I've already got Angelina Jo-Li in my head, and - really - I'm not up for reading a novel where she's the protagonist. There's only two places she belongs in my mind: in a playboy centerfold, or in rehab.

That being said - anything can work if you write it well. You show a hint of that at balancing her out: making her crude and bitter (why, we start to wonder?) and unkempt. The fact she's very forward with sex shows the confidence she needs to succeed as a private eye - as well as that "she'd eat her young" quality. Something bad (or at least interesting) happened to her in her past, and this would help define whether or not she's a unique character, or the same Mary Sue style protagonist we've seen in almost every novel of its kind.

[willfulone]

Your stuff sounds great and I agree with much posted here. My issue is the speech impediment. My spin on the impediment is this:

Many speech impediments can be corrected, especially things like not saying r's. Oral motor exercises correct this, even in adults, til they are almost non-existent. If she cannot say r's she cannot make other phonetic sounds where she needs the same type of oral placement as with r's. Thus, you will have to make it with all the phonetic sounds that use the same oral placement as r's or it will not be believable that she can do one, but not the other. Many readers will not know this. (But, I will). And you cannot take the time to educate readers about schwas and dipthongs without losing their interest. It is a dry, dry topic to the general public.

If you say she has a speech impediment but don't show it in her dialogue, I will not believe she has it. So, either write it in (although it would be tedious as you state) or leave it out. Just my opinion.

Perhaps she could have an impediment that does not take so much thought to write out (and the hard work to make it proper sounding)? Like a lisp or stuttering? Many times those impairments can be corrected or masked when a person is speaking slowly, even normally, or thinking about oral placement before they speak. But, they crop up in times of stress or rapid speech. If your MC had one of those two impediments, you could get away with only using the speech impediment periodically in dialogue to show she has it. Then, still use proper dialogue for her the rest of the time and it would be believable.

If you try to make it come across with the impediment you state, her dialogue will sound childish and very young and that is opposite of the woman you describe and would make the story hard to imagine while reading.

This is just my opinion, but your MC sounds great except for the "r" impediment.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Christine

[nevada]

This is the part that set of my internal alarm, besides her name being a bit clunky. I hate characters that go around feeling ashamed or guilty, especially if they keep doing whatever it is they feel bad about. I think, a person who does something they would really rather not do without a reason they think is really good is probably totally out of touch with what they really want and why they are doing what they are doing. And someone who does something they would really rather not do but has a really good reason should get a grip and think, well this is the best choice available, and I can do X and Y to help fix the mess I need to make, and there's no point angsting about it because this is my decision and I stand by it.

You must be the most secure, most self-confident person in the world. People lots of times do things that they know they shouldn't do, that doesn't make them feel right, but they still do it. People lots of times do things that they know is the right thing to do and still feel terrible about it and still can't cope with it. If they didn't, soldiers and police officers wouldn't have PTSD. It's that kind of dichotomy that makes a character interesting, that makes us want to read about them, to see the journey they take.

Someone who never does anything they know they shouldn't do, or does what they must and never feels guilty about it, who always makes the right choice and who doesn't angst is not someone I want to read about. Nor I would venture, would most people.

[Pike]

Just came on to this and thought I'd ask a question: What's her motivation? She could look like Bo Derek or Bo Diddley for all I care but what makes her unique? Physically, my thoughts are if she's such a scraper then why not give her a broken nose or a partial from the teeth she lost in a bar figth. And why does she fight so much? Raped? Ignored as a child? Lost a beauty pageant? What's her hang ups? Those things help grab a reader, just after vivid story-telling and fun plots.

Pike

[Hailey-Edwards]

From the information you've provided the only thing that turns me off is her name. Bo Fexler just sounds too much like Bowflex. I'm afraid every time I'd read her name, it would come across as a product placement. Other than that, she sounds interesting.

I was wondering if anyone else was thinking along those lines. Everything else sounds workable. Only the name is off putting. Maybe because I'm storing my Mom's in my garage? It's on my mind LOL

[Pike]

Since it got mentioned earlier I didn't feel like diving in. Bo works as a first name. It's catchy. It won't take but a minute to hit another last name.

Pike

[Ravenlocks]

-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
Turnoff. The number of unusually attractive people in books is far higher than in real life. Where do all these attractive people live? I live in LA, and even here the percentage of attractive people I see on a daily basis is not all that far above the norm. Personally I'm not interested in reading about unusually attractive people, especially women. I'd rather see a woman who doesn't have to be labeled beautiful and still kicks a$$.

-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations
-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts
None of these bother me. The fourth one is a plus because it implies some angst inside, which I like.

--While Bo is unusually attractive, she also has a severe speech impairment.
Turnoff. It feels like an attempt to garner sympathy for the character by plugging in a disability. Unless something in the story is going to hinge on the fact that she can't pronounce a word, I'd cut this trait.

She would rather be known for her mind than her looks or speech.
Turnoff. This isn't original. Also, it's another attempt to garner sympathy for the poor beautiful girl who can't get anybody to respect her for her mind instead of her looks. Boohoo. :tongue

--Bo may start fights or happily get into a physical altercation, but she certainly doesn't win them all. She's just as likely to lose as to win a fight. But that never stops her.
Nice. I like a character who loses sometimes.

--She's rather alone, doesn't understand why anyone would want to be around her, and would give anything to understand how get along with people (without being phony.)
Although this has been done many times before, it definitely can still work if done subtly.

[ishtar'sgate]

--While Bo is unusually attractive, she also has a severe speech impairment. She can't say R's at all and all the rest of her words are warped, with vowels all becoming dipthongs and most of her consonants coming out not-quite-right. People can't not notice it-- and some are cruel. [/FONT]


The speech impairment, although not itself a turnoff seems incongruous here. Generally people with severe speech problems are selfconcious and shy, not in-your-face kickbutt types. The speech impairment feels inconsistent with the rest of her character traits.
Linnea

[BlueLucario]

The speech impairment, although not itself a turnoff seems incongruous here. Generally people with severe speech problems are selfconcious and shy, not in-your-face kickbutt types. The speech impairment feels inconsistent with the rest of her character traits.
Linnea

I was going to say this. Thank you.

To be honest, I don't like any of your traits here. 2 out of 4-5 are Mary Sue traits. And the speech impairment contradicts pretty much the rest of it.

[escritora]

-- Bo is unusally attractive, very hot
This wouldn't turn me off. But I'd think it was a stereotypical character trait for a female PI. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'm just sharing my thought.

-- She uses sex to get what she wants, particularly in her investigations
I like this a lot. Especially if she doesn't make apologies for her behavior.

-- she is bitter, snarky, crude, and vulgar
As a stand alone trait it wouldn't bother me. But since she also uses sex as a tool, the "bitter" trait takes the fun out of it for me. I'd feel sorry for her as opposed to empowered by her use of her coochie pop.

-- She is more than willing to get into a fight or punch someone for things said
I like this a lot.

-- She is *outwardly* unashamed and unrepentent for how she acts
As long as she's not inwardly ashamed of her sexual behavior, I'm cool with the above.

[Clair Dickson]

Okay-- I'm going to respond to a few of the things said. (Each of these things is also addressed in the novel in some fashion.)

Eh-- long post. Sorry.

As for the name, I'd never made the BoFlex association, and thinks it's amusing. I think the only reason I can't really change it at this point (and I'm not sure I see the need to) is that I've got more than 40 Bo Fexler shorts publisher already. But I can see that some folks don't care-- though, honestly, her full name doesn't come up much in the text. It's all first person, so she's not going to refer to herself by name.

Interesting response to the speech impairment. I've done a lot of research and come up with a pretty good idea what particular disorder I'm giving her (it's a dyspraxia) but I refuse to name it in the text. If I don't ever name it, I can't get it wrong. =) In the text, her speech is as noticable as a strong Southern Twang or a British Accent would be in Michigan. It stands out. Most people are polite enough not to say anything, so it's not a major plot point. Though, in this first Bo Fexler novel, it does come back to get her in the end of the book b/c her unusual speech is recognized. Oh, and according to my research, the impairment I picked of her is very difficult to correct with speech therapy, because of the nature of it. I treat it the same way I treat most of her features-- in passing and only when important.

As for the sex-- she's comfortable with her sexual choices. She's more than willing to perform a sex act (with condom b/c she's not stupid) to get the information she wants. She's not ashamed of using her body-- anymore than she'd be ashamed of using her brains.

All her behaviors work well for her business. She can kick ass, she can defend herself, she can outargue folks, slyly convince people to tell her things, and so on. She's pretty good at getting people to do what she wants. The problems (as in getting people to like her) are in the personal part of her life. When she's not angling for something, she has a hard time figuring out how to act. It's that socially inept part of her.

And the unusually attractive-- I know this is one of the traits that people are going to have problems with. Bo does score as Borderline Sue. I'm sure the fact that she's really attractive but has a non-deforming disability go into that.

I'm hoping I've done the sort of writing that makes a character like this come off well. Mystery writing doesn't have very many hardboiled chicks.

I appreciate everyone who's come by to offer their opinions. I will check back in to see if there are any other questions that I should address. =)

[goldenquince]

I can only speak for myself of course - but if I picked up a book off the shelf and found out the MC was tragically hot and talked like Elmer Fudd...I would put the book back on the shelf. I find super-beautiful women in books (and movies) to be boring, and as far as physical handicaps go, a speech impediment isn't quite as usable as, let's say, House's limp for garnering sympathy and furthering character development. However, I am all about the sexy, snarky, socially awkward part. Those have always been the traits of my favourite characters. :)

I agree. And if she's socially gauche and wanting to remedy that, I don't think the "unrepentant and unashamed" part would work.

[Clair Dickson]

Well, she's OUTWARDLY unrepentent. Inwardly, she might be dying of embarrassment. Or at least wanting to, because it's not actually possible to die from it.

It's part of the reason that she has trouble getting along with folks-- she doesn't apologize when she realizes she's messed up. Too much pride. And too afraid that someone who use that as a way to hurt or further embarrass her.

[t0neg0d]

I like your description of her... but, have to say that I struggle with the name.

I can't help but wonder if she folds up and easily fits under the bed or in the closet once your done working out.

[Clair Dickson]

The speech impairment, although not itself a turnoff seems incongruous here. Generally people with severe speech problems are selfconcious and shy, not in-your-face kickbutt types. The speech impairment feels inconsistent with the rest of her character traits.
Linnea

BUT, if I may, someone who is flustered and obviously embarrassed by comments (esp. ill-intentioned comments) may and often will get more nastiness directed towards them. When chickens see blood, they keep pecking at it. Nasty people do this too. Bo would have learned that not being bothered would lessened the number of remarks.

(I see this with the kids I teach. The ones who brush off the ill-intentioned comments get less of them. The ones who don't, or who get upset, get more commments. And sometimes the pack will close in for the kill.)

[Sassee]

You could write a Mary Sue and I'd still read it as long as your prose was okay* and the story was entertaining.

(*Note that the prose doesn't even have to be great, just okay, because most readers just want to be entertained and what makes you puff out your chest in pride won't even get noticed by most readers. Sad but true.)

[Ravenlocks]

Clair, I'm not really clear on why you asked for feedback if you're going to argue it all away. Also, when people read the book they won't have you there to explain why the character works even though they might not think so.

Not trying to be snarky, but feedback isn't really useful unless you're willing to consider it.

One further point. If lots of stories about the character have already been published (congrats on that :)), then it seems to me she's already pretty much set in stone and you can't change her without disappointing fans of the stories.

[Danger Jane]

Forgive me for setting aside your actual question, but my immediate reaction was to wonder why you're asking this question at all? Be positive about your story. Focus on what aspects will turn readers on to Bo Fexler, PI. You wouldn't want this negative spin to rub off on your writing, would it?

Try assuming people really want to enjoy your book--after all, that's why people tend to read--and plan your every move around satisfying them. Same goes for agents. They want to find a bestseller. Every MS on the slushpile might be their retirement. All you have to do is maintain that potential.

(Sounds easier that way, huh?)

[Clair Dickson]

I don't mean to come off as argumentative. I suppose it does seem that way. =( Sorry about that. Pretty much everything I've responded to is addressed, at least in passing, in the novel, so it's not like I'm explaining anything that's not in the text somehow. (I obviously can't explain everything that's in the novel in the initial post, but perhaps I should have kept the rebuttals to myself?)

I already know a lot of the things that people like. And I was looking for what a general audience would dislike to see if perhaps I address them (which may not get some people past their dislike, which is fine). And just to see what the resonse is. I'm not very good at asking questions from a positive side... just not in my nature, really.

Now that it's been mentioned, I guess I haven't come as far from my some-what defensive stance as I thought I had. =/ I have this bad habit of asking 'but what if it's done this way?' though, like I said, I'm not always good at asking. Perhaps if I had worded my 'extra information' as questions rather than statements, might have not come off so defiant?

I really am grateful for the help and feedback that people have been willing to offer. I realize that not everyone is going to like my book. I just wanted to see what the response was.

Thanks for everything.

And I'll work on playing well with others. =)

[Ravenlocks]

:)

[willfulone]

Interesting response to the speech impairment. I've done a lot of research and come up with a pretty good idea what particular disorder I'm giving her (it's a dyspraxia) but I refuse to name it in the text. If I don't ever name it, I can't get it wrong. =) In the text, her speech is as noticable as a strong Southern Twang or a British Accent would be in Michigan. It stands out. Most people are polite enough not to say anything, so it's not a major plot point. Though, in this first Bo Fexler novel, it does come back to get her in the end of the book b/c her unusual speech is recognized. Oh, and according to my research, the impairment I picked of her is very difficult to correct with speech therapy, because of the nature of it. I treat it the same way I treat most of her features-- in passing and only when important. =)

Which dyspraxia are you using for your character? Acquired or developmental? From your quote I parsed, it sounds as if your MC has a case that is NOT mild, but at least moderate, possibly even severe. Not mentioning it won't mean you can't be wrong in your delivery of her characteristics and speech. Because you still might. If you do not explain this disorder somewhere in your ms, people will not believe she has it when you use regular dialogue throughout for ease of reading. They will iggy the impairment and you will shock them when you bring it up at the end and it is an issue for her when she is recognized for her speech. Additionally, if you do not expain it and use the dialogue as she would really speak, she will sound childish, possibly garbled in her verbage.

You may want to call an SLP and see if they will grant you a chat for research (many will be interviewed briefly for research - no cost). They will be able to shed light on things that cannot be intrepreted by reading (and the reading on such is dry and often lacking in detail that you may need). They have experience with the real deal and would give you a better picture of what your character would sound like in real life and maybe offer an alternative disorder that may fit your MC better so that you do not hit the stumbling block of shock/dismay at the end, or upset at deciphering the dialogue if you decide to type it all out.

Did you consider other disorders like dysarthria?

[IdiotsRUs]

What would bother me most? The fact she's incredibly attractive. Now if she's not bad looking but her charisma gets her everywhere that's fine, Better than fine - I can relate to that. But some hollywood barby? Even if she has some other flaws, it's a bit *sigh* give her some physical flaw ( even if it's only self perceived.) No woman thinks she looks perfect!

[Clair Dickson]

Which dyspraxia are you using for your character? Acquired or developmental? From your quote I parsed, it sounds as if your MC has a case that is NOT mild, but at least moderate, possibly even severe. Not mentioning it won't mean you can't be wrong in your delivery of her characteristics and speech. Because you still might. If you do not explain this disorder somewhere in your ms, people will not believe she has it when you use regular dialogue throughout for ease of reading. They will iggy the impairment and you will shock them when you bring it up at the end and it is an issue for her when she is recognized for her speech. Additionally, if you do not expain it and use the dialogue as she would really speak, she will sound childish, possibly garbled in her verbage.

You may want to call an SLP and see if they will grant you a chat for research (many will be interviewed briefly for research - no cost). They will be able to shed light on things that cannot be intrepreted by reading (and the reading on such is dry and often lacking in detail that you may need). They have experience with the real deal and would give you a better picture of what your character would sound like in real life and maybe offer an alternative disorder that may fit your MC better so that you do not hit the stumbling block of shock/dismay at the end, or upset at deciphering the dialogue if you decide to type it all out.

Did you consider other disorders like dysarthria?

You've brought up some interesting points here.

I know I should probably do some more research with living people... though I do love my internet. =) Though, even the internet confuddles the issue, with some places using dyspraxia and others apraxia. Verbal dyspraxia was kind of what I picked. Something she's grown up with, and as such it has shaped her. At least that's what I was thinking.

I go back and forth with whether or not to write out her speech. Part of me sees the issue of verisimiltude, part of me finds it exceptionally tedious (both as a reader and a writer). And, admittedly, my own biases as a reader most certainly play into my writing.

I'll keep thinking about it-- right now I've got two partials out to agents. I'm not doing any major rewrites at this point, but not ruling out future rewrites either. The speech impairment issue is a much bigger one than I ever realized.

[Danger Jane]

Could you, rather than write out a phonetic dialect, devise a few odd, characteristic turns of phrase that Bo would use? Maybe to avoid a common word that gives her a lot of trouble. This would remind readers of her problem, but not in a difficult or in-your-face way.

[Clair Dickson]

Could you, rather than write out a phonetic dialect, devise a few odd, characteristic turns of phrase that Bo would use? Maybe to avoid a common word that gives her a lot of trouble. This would remind readers of her problem, but not in a difficult or in-your-face way.

That's a good idea. I like that!

[willfulone]

You've brought up some interesting points here.

I know I should probably do some more research with living people... though I do love my internet. =) Though, even the internet confuddles the issue, with some places using dyspraxia and others apraxia. Verbal dyspraxia was kind of what I picked. Something she's grown up with, and as such it has shaped her. At least that's what I was thinking.

I go back and forth with whether or not to write out her speech. Part of me sees the issue of verisimiltude, part of me finds it exceptionally tedious (both as a reader and a writer). And, admittedly, my own biases as a reader most certainly play into my writing.

I'll keep thinking about it-- right now I've got two partials out to agents. I'm not doing any major rewrites at this point, but not ruling out future rewrites either. The speech impairment issue is a much bigger one than I ever realized.

I am not dissing your wanting to use it or saying you must change her disorder. I am just offering you insight into the disorder that you may not have run across on the internet.

Apraxia of speech and developmental verbal dyspraxia are used to describe the same issue - try not to let that confuse you too much. I get you are interested in the verbal issues, but dyspraxia of the developmental type typically has many other issues, especially if the afflicted is moderately to severely impaired. Your description sounds more than mild. Autism is often misdiagnosed as DAS (Developmental Apraxia of Speech) or CAS (Childhood Appraxia of speech) or DVD (Developmental Verbal Dyspraxia) and visa versa in the young. Additionally, it is uncommon, really rare (though not impossible) for someone with any of the three diagnosis to have the speech stand alone as an issue. This is the hardest form to bend with therapy (which follows your other statement about difficulty correcting the speech). They commonly have coordination issues of all types, issues with breath control for phonition and breathing. That is not going to mesh with a PI chasing perps down or brawling. It is also not uncommon for this type of person to have issues eating/swallowing which may not come up in your book if she never dines with someone, but if she drinks ever that may become apparent.

I agree the internet is a vast resource. But, this type of topic is dry to read and comprehend if one is meaning to look at it for educational purposes when getting a degree. It is much worse for one who is pulling at it directly without other speech and language knowledge for basis of reference. There is a reason it is not taught in the first semesters of a speech degree. It is a varied and difficult disorder to understand.

You will really benefit from direct discussion with an SLP or a review of support groups that are all over the net where adults (with varying degrees of this disorder) congregate to share their stories and such. If it can be worked into your ms, you may even pick up some good tidbits to add scenes for future books/shorts in your series'.

Good luck!

Christine (Who is most pleased that the degree she got has been used at least once in her lifetime.)

[deannamari]

I think you should write the story you want to tell, and the way you want to tell it. If you do too much self-editing before the story is even out, it might end up reading like a committee-written novel. Everything you've mentioned could easily work if the story and writing are strong.

[dayne-jen]

My vote would be to tone down the 'unusually attractive, very hot' angle. 'Attractive' or 'mildly attractive' might work better, especially on someone with a severe speech impediment. Most people with that kind of problem would have also confidence issues that would affect their expressions and mannerisms, how they interact with others, etc. Her willingness to fight fits that. Someone who is 'very hot' wouldn't be perceived as having a confidence issue.

That was the only point that had me cringing. Everything else about her was interesting. I'd read it.

One point: what's the tally about the "unusually attractive, very hot' aspect as it relates to the reader's sex? Who is your target audience?

[Oddsocks]

Honestly, I wouldn't even pick up a book called 'Sex and Violence'. But that's just me - those are not among the story elements that generally interest me (at least, not in such high concentrations as to have earned a place in the title).

I do agree, however, with whoever said that, as a title, it sounds a bit attention-grabby. Aside from advertising that it's probably not a story I'll love, it doesn't really tell me anything about the specifics of the story - it's about some of the content that might attract a lot of people, but there's nothing in 'Sex and Violence' that is in any way unique to your world/plot/characters that you wouldn't find elsewhere.

Not that a title has to be uniquely specific to its story. I do think it would help, though.

As for the specifics you mentioned, 'uses sex to get what she wants' and 'unusually attractive' both turn me off a bit; the first because I don't feel like I'd be able to relate to the character (I don't necessarily recommend changing this, though - it is an interesting and unusual trait for a lead female character and, while it will turn some people off, I think many people will find it refreshing). The second because, as others have said, it is so common.

[Reilly616]

The title and the lisp. The latter for obvious reasons. The former because the title seems to be trying too hard to be "risquay."

[Clair Dickson]

Even given the 'attention-grabbing' nature of the title, would it make you pick it up, perhaps? Maybe read the back of the book?

I'm okay with attention-getting behavior. ;-) I'm hoping my cover will also have a sexy dame on it, too. Reminicent perhaps of the sleezy pulp mystery covers of the 30s and 40s.

[VoltShadow]

I wouldn't read it on account of the title: 'Sex and Violence' so reeks of attention grabber and sensationalising and the description of your MC just confirms that.

Tone everything down unless your going for a comedy.

It's still has to be something worth remembering. Like... I dunno... On The Otherhand I'm the Girlfriend of a Sex God or something of the like. Maybe even just a favorite line or chapter title. Just don't make it something stupid like "Swing Vote" or I'm going to hit you with a semi-tuck. Well, maybe not.

[Inky]

I don't really like the speech impediment angle, because it is like the author is trying to add a non-disfiguring handicap in order to make her more likable. I don't think I like or dislike people (or feel sorry, or not) because they have speech problems. That you don't use it in the dialog would make me forget about it. So people react to it by making fun of her or something? I would forget it, and think that people were just rude, thus her snarkiness is a result of the mean way people behave in your fictional world. If people are mean to her because they can't understand what she is saying it could be different. I don't know. Anyway, it seems complicated, and that one little problem seems more trouble than it is worth (my opinion, of course).

You seem to have some conflicting character traits there. She uses sex and her looks to get what she wants, but then she can't understand why anyone would want to be with her and she'd prefer being known for her intelligence than her looks. Nothing in the descriptions would turn me off, in themselves, but incongruities like this would.

Double ditto on these two quotes, and a few others that would have made this post waaaay toooo long.

Heads up: refrain from using the word 'retard'. Quite a few people take offense to that, regardless. Save it for someone making fun of her within your story, but when describing to someone, I wouldn't use that slur.

Also, why does she have to be hot? Like others said, this is so bloody overdone in this day & age....

The way you've described her would seem to me that she almost overcompensates BECAUSE of the rejection/slurs/bullying/teasing she's received. Do some research. I've gone to school with girls that had speech difficulties. Some were magnetic and very popular, while the other was put through hell to the point of making her goofy when she DID make a friend. She'd become so excited to 'fit in', she'd over compensate, but in the end, turn people off by giving them the impression that she was weird.

No worries. She had the last laugh. Grew up to be incredibly successful, pleasing to the eye, and VERY kind. Inner beauty.

Anyway, if you're looking for a flaw to make your character less paperdoll/stereotypical, I suggest that you do some research on the psychological impact your flaw has on people, and those surrounding the individual so that you can convey a true sense of character, her environment, and what shaped her to be the woman she is today.
Not all people who have been teased become snarky. Some take that experience and turn into some of the most powerful caregivers.

I just think you need to dig a bit deeper and flesh this character out versus making her stereotypical.

She's beautiful.
She's bitter.
She screws everything with a penis as a sort of self inflicted punishment/last laugh on the male species.
AND you stereotype men. You have where she's made fun of, her speech turning people off, but she's a sex fiend which means what you're saying is that men jump in the sack with her because of her looks...what? They tell her not to speak while doin' the wild thing?

In this day & age, men are much more aware of their female counterparts. Yeah, they still like the sight a bared boob, and deep cleavage, but they've come a long way from being Neanderthals.

Like I said. You're on to something...but you need to work out the kinks and make it less stereotypical.

[Nakhlasmoke]

I'm late and I gather you don't want to change this aspect, but yeah, the moment I read anything about how super-hot the mc is, I would more than likely just slip your book back on the shelf with a quiet sigh of boredom.

Unless of course your prose was absolutely scintillating.

Others have also pointed out the issue with the speech impediment. They make some very good points.

[Inky]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the title.
When I first read it, I thought your book was going to be on topic with exactly as it mentions Sex and Violence. Was this book about rape victims, or how some need the violence in order to become sexually aroused? It was a turnoff, but only because it's a subject matter I'd rather not delve into.

So I have to wonder how many others are wondering the same thing, when first they read your title, or assume: oh joy, another Dr. Phil book.

Meh. The title doesn't sound anything like a mystery/private eye/thriller type book.

Sit back and really diagnose what your story is about. If you've outlined, study a few of your plots and subplots. Many times, THAT'S where you'll find your title. Click over to Amazon and type in private eye mysteries and read titles to get your mental juices flowing. *shrug* Whatever helps, yanno?

[Clair Dickson]

Sit back and really diagnose what your story is about. If you've outlined, study a few of your plots and subplots. Many times, THAT'S where you'll find your title.

Okay, so technically the book is about sex, DRUGS and violence. ;-)

Here's the short premise I have for it (for what it's worth): Sexy Bo Fexler, female PI, uses her brains, her fists, and her body while searching for Jon Lastrum, a polite, ambitious, seemingly perfect and missing man. What she finds is a trail of drugs, sex, and violence that will either lead her to Jon or to someone far more dangerous.

People who read Janet Evanovich and Sue Grafton may not much care for Bo Fexler. People who read Hard Case Crime books or like the Kill Bill movies may enjoy her more.

At least that's what my short story pub record seems to reflect-- can't get into EQMM or AHMM, but Out of the Gutter and MuzzleFlash take me.

[Pachydermia]

I agree with the name- it sounds like Bowflex.
Also- it's kind of trying too hard to be different, which I don't really like outside of Fantasy/Scifi.
And I was really turned off by the 'unusually attractive' bit, before I learned about the speech impairment- that's a really great way to temper Mary Sue traits- it sounds really intriguing.I'd totally read about some hot detective, if she was something other than hot, too. She sounds like a great character- congrats.
:)
Weatherly