Editors/Publisher....Denyed for content. Many Questions

[jwbajorek]

Okay, thank you for reading and all of your comments [for starters].

I am a new writer. I wrote one novel before (not published) that was more of a suspense type novel. But my heart and soul were poured into my latest novel, which because of its genre/content has been denyed by 3 editors/publishers.

I am not an english major [actually i am a finance/econ duel] so because of which my grammer and all is a bit off. But the content of the novel and purpose of the novel (in my opinion as well as 11 out of the 12 people who have read it) say it is quite amazing.

The problem is that it is very gay. I am a 20 year old gay guy who grew up in a very rural, homophobic, religious hometown. Growing up in such a mentally depriving area truly hindered my thoughts of acting upon my true self. I learned a lot in college and have lovely friends to help me through some of my current and previous issues. The novel is a romantic-fiction though I have interpreted a lot of personal fears, issues, and insecurities within the book. There are a lot of personal issues that are depicted within the novel such as self-destruction [bulemia, self-mutilization, etc] that we all struggle through. The main issue going through the main characters head [as well as that of mine at points in my life] is whether or not life is worth living because no matter what I accomplish I will eternally be seen by society as the faggot. A lot of the novel is psychological rantings/venting that I personally wrote during moments of struggle within my own life. But it also ties in romance through the main character being in a relationshsip but being cheated on and at the end realizing that true love can exist beyond the physicality of life. And through the novel characters develope [obviously, lol] and sadly the novel revels that not all of us are capable of working our way to peace with society's hatred. One character who struggles endlessly with being gay does kill himself at the end [which is another reason one publisher wasn't interested for it wasn't "a truely happy ending"].

But. My main questions.
1) Any recommendations for an editor/publisher that may not deny me. I am not ashamed of being denyed it is just frustrating to be denyed by "romance" publishers because it is gay themed.

2) Is private (self) publishing worth it? My friend published his novel (science-fiction) through Publish America but i have read some nasty things about them.

Thanks :-)
-Jwbajorek

[veinglory]

Is it genre romance? If so you only need to select a genre romance with a gay and lesbian section (Samhain, Ellora's Cave) or a gay publisher with a romance line (Romentics, PD, 7th Window). My examples are small press because I am more familair with that level, but larger presses cover the gay romance genre also.

[t0neg0d]

Quick question, for clarification:

In the responses to your query, they went as far as to tell you (for example), 'Due to the homosexual nature of the submitted material, we are sorry to inform you that we will be pursuing other efforts at this time. We wish you luck with future submissions' etc, etc? Or is this an assumption on your part?

Will help you to get accurate responses here by clarifying this.

As far as self-publishing goes: I hear (have never pursued) that this is a tough road if you do not have the time/effort to put into self-marketing, etc. I, for one, pursue efforts in many different arenas of art, as well as work and have a family. I could never afford the time to go this route.

[callalily61]

First, :welcome: to AW.

Second, I know there are pubs that take gay romance. A friend of mine just pubbed her first ebook with that theme. Check out the Bewares and Background Checks forum and of course Preditors and Editors for reputable publishers.

Third, have you given the book to a couple of beta readers? There's a forum here to ask for betas. I swear by mine--they rock, and are not afraid to tell me what's wrong--and what's right.

Third--maybe it's the query that isn't working for you. Check out the Share Your Work forum, especially the stickies at the top on how to write a query. Then, if your rhino hide is in place, post your query there. We hurt with kindness. :D

Good luck!

[veinglory]

My impression is the manuscript has yet to be submitted. I would ask where you queried. If it is gay romance and they do not publish gay romance, well... they odds are they won't want it. But there are 30-40 publishers I know of that are active in that genre.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I don't think that the issue is necessarily the gay content. All mainstream publishers in the US publish gay fiction. There are also several specialty gay and lesbian publishers, and a trade association called The Publishing Triangle (http://www.publishingtriangle.org/) for GLBT folks in the publishing field.

And there are publishers who focus only on gay romance as well. Google "gay romance publisher" and you'll find literally dozens.


Where I think the problem is is here:

A) Your manuscript isn't ready for publication. If your manuscript includes the kind of grammar, syntax, spelling, and punctuation errors that your post contains, it's not ready for publication. Publishers want manuscripts that are already coherent and polished.

B) You don't understand how the publishing process works. It's not a question of being "denied", for one thing. It's a question of being accepted. Publishers get many, many more good manuscripts than they can possibly print each year; yours has to stand out in that group of polished, carefully-written manuscripts.

[jwbajorek]

Thanks all.
I will look into your suggestions.
Well I did submit (as they had requested) the first couple chapters (since my chapters are quite short). My favorite authors often write short chapters (such as Joseph Finder <3 him) and to me that is the more natural way of my writing style as well.
But they have read it and one publicist said it was 'good' but not their genre and to pick a publicist who might be more inclined to publish a novel that is more into this type of work [or something to that regards]. They specificially did not imply "no because you are a faggot" but that is the assumption that i have gotten.

But i will look into some of those. I could probably use a beta, i will look into exactly what those do and such. I know my work needs editting [spelling/grammer] but i think generally speaking the content flows nicely.

Thanks again :-)

[mscelina]

Welcome to AW.

I have to chime in with Ice Cream Empress here--misspelled words, incorrect grammar--all those little nitpicky things will get your query booted before it's read. I'd advise a lot more research into the tools of your craft--learning how to write, grammar, and spelling--and the industry--what publishers look for your genre of fiction--before you throw your baby to the wolves.

[IceCreamEmpress]

But they have read it and one publicist said it was 'good' but not their genre and to pick a publicist who might be more inclined to publish a novel that is more into this type of work [or something to that regards]. They specificially did not imply "no because you are a faggot" but that is the assumption that i have gotten.

That's not a correct assumption (unless you were approaching a socially-conservative or religious publisher who has a general policy against publishing gay fiction).

Good luck with polishing your manuscript and submitting it in future.

[PattiTheWicked]

And even if they it's "not their genre", it doesn't mean that it's not good. It means you didn't do your homework, and you sent a gay romance to someone who doesn't publish gay romance. Publishing is a weird business, but don't make assumptions.

Good writing and following the rules trump everything else.

[ClaudiaGray]

There are plenty of gay-themed or gay-friendly small presses out there, and most of the big houses publish some types of LGBT fiction and nonfiction. As Ice Cream Empress suggested, I think you need to look harder at your prose. You mention having problems with your grammar and spelling as though these were minor issues instead of major factors influencing your readability. Work hard on this, get your manuscript in the best shape it can be, and research the publishers and agents who take on this kind of book. There are plenty of them out there.

[Doogs]

Well I did submit (as they had requested) the first couple chapters (since my chapters are quite short).
But they have read it and one publicist said it was 'good' but not their genre and to pick a publicist who might be more inclined to publish a novel that is more into this type of work [or something to that regards].

Question. Were these chapters requested after said agents read your query letter, or were they part of the submission guidelines? If it is the former, then I would suggest you revisit your query to ensure it properly reflects your story and its tone.

They specificially did not imply "no because you are a faggot" but that is the assumption that i have gotten.

You know what they say about assumptions. Rejections are a dime a dozen in the writing world. I highly doubt there is any personal bias at work. More likely they didn't connect with the writing or tone, etc.

I know my work needs editting [spelling/grammer] but i think generally speaking the content flows nicely.

Generally speaking won't cut it. Even a great story needs to be honed and polished. How many drafts have you been through?

[AdamH]

1) Any recommendations for an editor/publisher that may not deny me. I am not ashamed of being denyed it is just frustrating to be denyed by "romance" publishers because it is gay themed.

2) Is private (self) publishing worth it? My friend published his novel (science-fiction) through Publish America but i have read some nasty things about them.


1. My best recommendation is do your research on the publisher before you send it. The Writer's Market books are great because they can break down what publishers or editors are looking for. Then surf their websites. A quick google search I found this site: http://www.publishingcentral.com/subject.html?sid=167&si=1&kwd=gay+lesbian+book+publishing
See if they've published any gay or lesbian literature along the lines that you've written. Also, another tip: Go to your local bookstore and check out what publishers published those books.

2. I find from talking to other's who've done it that it is worth it. But it's left up to you to promote and sell it. So there's a lot more work involved. Just be careful of places like PA who take advantage of young writers.

Hope that helps.

[lawtowriting]

It can be very difficult to take rejection when you've "poured your heart" into a work and it can make the rejection seem very personal. But after having poured your heart into a work, it can also be very difficult to see its flaws. I remember in 12th Grade English class, our teacher (with the student's permission) read us a true story the student had written about her mother getting killed. The story was very mediocre (not saying that your story is), and the teacher read it to demonstrate that just because someone writes something personal, doesn't mean that it doesn't have to still be exceptional writing. Listen to what people have said here and take a close look at your work. Also, have some objective betas read it as well.

[MoonWriter]

jwbajorek - welcome to AW.

The fact that 11 of 12 readers liked your story is encouraging. You can't go wrong following the above advice.

[Barber]

Hmmm. I wanted to weigh in and say I hope you've gotten away from that atmosphere. Having grown up in a multi-cultural society, I often forget what ignorance lurks in other parts of the world. And in this day and age!

Having said that, try to understand many others feel the same as I do (that there's nothing wrong with being gay). If you can keep that in mind, the rejection won't feel so personal. I worry you might have come at this from a defensive place, thinking that publishers would reject the book due to its gay content.

It sounds almost like you should consider selling this as a memoir, and there are several agents who represent memoirs of the Gay / Lesbian genre. There's a market for gay novels, so don't worry that an agent wouldn't represent it or that a publisher wouldn't publish it. :)

Strengthen your writing skills; research the places you're pitching to.

[Reilly616]

I wouldn't self publish. Have you tried publishers outside of America? Your novel sounds great, I think it would sell well in the UK and Ireland.

[PattiTheWicked]

It could sell well here in the US too, if it's a good novel and sold to the right publisher.

[callalily61]

What Patti Said. :)

[Reilly616]

It could sell well here in the US too, if it's a good novel and sold to the right publisher.

Obviously. All I'm saying is not to limit the possibilities. If the content isn't being well recieved over there, why not try some other places.

[Kitty Pryde]

Don't give up so early in the game, and don't go through Publish America.

Your book is never going to be published by a romance publisher because it doesn't follow the boy-meets-girl-and-their-love-defies-all-odds formula, which is what their customers want. Just like the fact that your book is never going to be published by a science published because it doesn't fit into the smart-person-explains-interesting-scientific-theories formula. It's nothing to do with your writing or homophobia, and it's everything to do with marketing!

Can I recommend you peruse the website of A Different Light Bookstore (http://www.adlbooks.com/)? (Not a kid-friendly site, possibly NSFW) This is a well-known (in California) bookstore that carries all types of LGBT-interest books. They have everything from kids picture books to mainstreamed lit (Armistead Maupin, David Sedaris, Augusten Burroughs) to romance to erotica. I think it's a good place to see who is publishing what sorts of books, and where your books might fit in. Plenty of books have been successfully published about young gay men struggling with their identity and sexuality. It's a matter of a well written story finding its way to the right publisher!

Post your query or a short piece from your novel in the Share Your Work forum and you will get great feedback.

[veinglory]

I suspect the three markets tried are not representative and perhaps not the right ones to start off with. I have about 100 gay romances and memoirs on my shelves; although the UK is somewhat disproportionately represented, the majority were published in the US. I know a good dozen writers just on this forum are publishing gay romance with US presses. The issue of whether it is a 'romance' per se or a love story is important too.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Obviously. All I'm saying is not to limit the possibilities. If the content isn't being well recieved over there, why not try some other places.

It's not the content. There are many places to publish gay romance in the US.

[Use Her Name]

3 publishers and 3 editors is not a lot. Look at the great Gay novalists/writers. I think especially of Gary Indiana because I love the way he writes. It could be that you need to study the publishers more and if your spelling and grammar and "expression" are not up to par, you need to go back to school, or read a few books, and so on-- a few classes in that stuff ought to do it. My grammar and writing skills became 90% better when I took a few writing/grammar classes.

Any one of us for any reason whatsoever might be barking up the wrong tree. And it is not all about what you write. It could be that the market is saturated by books like yours is, or maybe they sell poorly, that does not mean that sales couldn't pick up. I have a Gay male friend who reads constantly and is always finding a new book of Gay literature, and there seems to be a decent market for it. I think finding a place for a brooding realistic piece is a bit tougher-- these days people seem to like escapist entertainment--

(Escapism always happens in economic hard times, you may need to wait a few years until we get through this recession)

I think self publishing is good only if you have a ready made market and are writing a cookbook or a church history. I wouldn't touch it for a fiction book.

I'm a bit U.S. Centric because I live here. Sorry.

[scope]

You have received excellent advice from a bunch of people. I hope you take it to heart, because the impressions I get from your posts is that you feel close to having produced a well written work ready to try and sell, and which you feel can be sold -- with just a little help. IMHO, I don't see it that way, and I think you owe it to yourself to objectively decide if you know enough about the entire writing process to actually have produced a fine work -- one that a publisher or an agent would react to by saying something like: "Wow." And then there's the art of know the "business" of publishing, because publishing is a very real business, whose base line is to make a profit on what it produces and sells (with a very few rare exceptiond).

I edited because I forgot to ask you something. I realize you must have poured you heart out to write your work, however, when I read your initial post and your description of the story I wind up saying: "So, what else is new?" What makes your work different and more meaningful than others?

[nevada]

No book will be denied because of a gay content. My library has over 40 pages of gay novels listed and it's not a big library.

Have you edited your novel? All published novels go through rounds and rounds of editing and it is the author who does it. By the time the novel is ready to be sent out to agents, it is perfect. I have a feeling that perhaps your book is not ready, that it needs to be edited and revised a lot still. I do agree that you should get it to some readers who are not friends or family, people who will tell you the truth without being concerned about boosting your ego or damaging their relationship with you by being honest.

You say it contains rants/ventings written by you personally. This leads me to believe that there might not be a cohesion in the work, that it is too close to you for you to be able to see that your rants and vents, while cathartic for you, do not fit the story or the plot.

Romance as a genre is very restrictive. Gay or straight, in order for a book to be considered romance it has to focus primarily on the romance and it has to have a happy ending. That means the two main characters end up together in a monogamous, committed relationship. If you don't have that, it is not a "Romance" book.

I suggest you go to the library and get some books. Get a book on how to write a novel. Writing the Break Out Novel is good. Even Fiction Writing for Dummies. These books will walk you through not only how to write a good book, but how to write a good query and the protocol when submitting. Most publishers will not look at a manuscript if it is not submitted by an agent. Which means that if you sent your book to a publisher, they would not even have read it before rejecting. There are certain requirements when you send your book to an agent. Most agents do not want to see any writing before you send them a query letter. If the letter sounds good and they think the plot of the book is interesting they may ask for a few chapters.

Learn the business, and learn to take the personal out of your writing. Don't get attached to any word, any sentence, any paragraph that you write. Just because it is important to you, does not mean it serves the story. Triple check your spelling. Realize that it can take well over a year to produce a publishable book and that it can take another year to get an agent, if not longer.

Be honest about what you wrote. Look past your own involvement in the work and read it as someone who has never heard of you. It will not be rejected on content.. 99% of rejected books get rejected because the writing just isn't quite good enough.

Good luck.

[Reilly616]

That's not a correct assumption (unless you were approaching a socially-conservative or religious publisher who has a general policy against publishing gay fiction).

Good luck with polishing your manuscript and submitting it in future.

Then he should try those places. I was merely offering advice on places I personally know about.

[t0neg0d]

It will not be rejected on content.. 99% of rejected books get rejected because the writing just isn't quite good enough.

I would also like to add--this is subjected to current trends as well. Is it in the favored POV of the day? Is it witty (when witty is favored)? Is it "deep" (when thought-invoking is the flavor of the day)? It is unfortunate, but it is a business and people publish what is currently selling.

[Clair Dickson]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but most publishers don't care about color, orientation, schooling, etc of the author or the subject. They care about one thing, over all else-- GREEN. Can the make $ome money off the book.

In order to make sure a publisher can see that it's going to see, you have to have a great book and you have to get into the hands of someone who can see it's greatness (and it's $ales potential.) Aside from the aforementioned caveats-- as in, a sci-fi only agent/editor is not going to see the sales potential in even the Greatest Mystery Ever Told-- it's really about having a book that can SELL. And, having a bunch of errorrs signals to most that the book needs a lot of work (read: time and MONEY) before it can sell. They want the next great book that's all ready to put on the shelf.

And it doesn't matter if it was written by space aliens or cats. Publishers are just checking to see if it will sell.

[veinglory]

Well, actually, plenty of publishers are run by people who won't touch gay fiction for religious or other beleif reasons. There are others that just don't happen to be interested in gay content as they sepcialise in other material. There are some that have plain inaccurate beliefs like 'our readers are female and won't want gay romance'.

There are plenty of options for gay fiction but we are not living in an egalitarian utopia quite yet.

[Clarec]

I just really wanted to echo what everyone else has already said - it's imperative to have your manuscript as absolutely perfect as you can make it. Read it until you eyes bleed then pass it on for others to read as you're bound to miss mistakes. Then research your market thoroughly and aim for agents who specifically deal with work like yours. Finally, perfect your query letter as that's what will get your foot in the door.

Good luck.

Clare

[Clair Dickson]

Well, actually, plenty of publishers are run by people who won't touch gay fiction for religious or other beleif reasons. There are others that just don't happen to be interested in gay content as they sepcialise in other material. There are some that have plain inaccurate beliefs like 'our readers are female and won't want gay romance'.

There are plenty of options for gay fiction but we are not living in an egalitarian utopia quite yet.


That's where the part about getting it into the hands of someone who recognizes it as sellable is key.

Sure, there are some publishers who won't because of the reasons mentioned, but I was thinking that most publishers are not that way. If that's not the case, then if it's not *most*, with a caveat of not selling it to someone who outright doesn't want it (as I originally posted), then I stand corrected.

[jwbajorek]

wow lovely advice from all!
i knew it was a difficult process, but i had no idea how truely difficult the process was to get published.
I have read it about 3 times, and have had a few people read it as i have said and they offered some great advice here and there. I am in the process of contacting my former/current [i think she is re-hiring me this semester, but not 100% sure] employer who has her doctorates in english [and is a lesbain, too]. So hopefully she will lend a hand with the editting process and I know she will be quite honest with her words.

And to answer a question asked prior about what makes mine different from other novels and to me it is simple: this is more than just a love story or a coming of age story or a coming out story. This novel is about finding oneself through the struggles and through the hardache. It is about self-analitical processes where you accept who you are through realizing what you have done. It is about not taking life for granted and realizing that we have control. There is no higher power looking down upon us steering us toward success. And as much as our friends are there for us, if we are not happy with ourselves and if we are not able to accept our flaws and imperfections and work through those mentally and physically, then that is us in a netshell.

What upsets me is i view being gay as one aspect of who i am. I do not introduce myself as gay nor do I believe I am who i am because i am gay ~ but society through all of their torment and anguish see our community as "gay". People believe that being gay is no big deal and because they believe that (which i totally agree that being gay is just an aspect of who we are), the discrimination and the glares are obvious. You do not need to speak words to show homophobia. You don't need to burn rainbow flags or scream "faggot" out of the window to announce that you hate us. We can tell in your eyes and your body language. As we walk down the streets holding hands and you cross the street to avoid walking by us. Or you shake your head or advert your eyes ~ that is what is killer. Because people see us as minorities and are not afraid to feel ashamed. And this view from society is what is killer. And not every gay guy is strong enough to overcome this hatred. And through this novel, i have used some of my own experiences and my psychological thinking of personal hatred and the feelings of shamefulness of myself because of how i am viewed to show society [both heteros and fellow homos] that being gay is okay but just because it is okay doesn't mean it is easy. I have seen one too many peers turn to dangerous activities to try to show their manliness in order for society to back off. And in my novel i have taken one character who is able to overcome the hatred to fully love himself and others while another character can't do it.

And as aweful as it sounds, the majority (95+%) of my gay friends [including myself] have pondered the end for the question does lurk in the back of my head does it matter what i accomplish? For i may be as happy as I will ever be, but knowing that friends and family are ashamed is deathly. And not knowing the thoughts of those friends you hold so close to your heart, is even worse.

Sorry that is sort of a long, repetative [and full of gramatical errors i am sure] answer, but its the truth. This novel is more than just words on paper. It is about understanding the mentality within the gay community. Through cheating and death and self-image issues and self-understanding we are able to move forward but until then, the question still remains if it really matters. And again it comes down to how strong of an individual we are if we are able to look passed the shameful looks and be happy with who we are....or if being the black sheep of society is too much.

No matter what path we choose, we are right.
For life is only as fabulous as we we want it to be.

Hope that helps . . .
Hmmm.
-jwbajorek

[jwbajorek]

Romance as a genre is very restrictive. Gay or straight, in order for a book to be considered romance it has to focus primarily on the romance and it has to have a happy ending. That means the two main characters end up together in a monogamous, committed relationship. If you don't have that, it is not a "Romance" book.


See this is what i believe is the falacy within the genre. To me it is not real to end in such a romantic way. My ending [sure, i'll ruin it, lol] has the two main characters ~ two gay guys who the one loves the other with his heart and soul being true loves in a non physical manner. They are true best friends ~ for in my world, nothing is more romantic than the joy of having a true best friend.

And yes at the end of my novel, the main character meets a new guy who he feels is ideal. And i do allude to the fact that they are ideals. I do not believe in soul mates thus will not depict them as, but in the same manner ideals do exist.

[Ravenlocks]

You might consider posting an excerpt in the Share Your Work section of these forums. The folks there should be able to give you some thoughts on whether your work is ready to be marketed or whether you should consider doing another draft.

[PattiTheWicked]

And yes at the end of my novel, the main character meets a new guy who he feels is ideal. And i do allude to the fact that they are ideals. I do not believe in soul mates thus will not depict them as, but in the same manner ideals do exist.

It may be that your book, while having romantic themes, is not a romance at all. It may be soemthing else entirely. I'll state the obvious and bring up Brokeback Mountain -- it's an incredibly beautiful love story, but the ending is tragic. And it's NOT a romance, but literary fiction. If Annie Proulx had tried to pitch it to a romance publisher, they'd have probably turned her down.

Again, you need to make sure your manuscript is (a) the best it can be AND (b) being presented to the appropriate publishers.

[jwbajorek]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2527541#post2527541

For those of you interested, i posted one of my favorite chapters of the novel.
Please be honest :-)
Hope you enjoy . . .

I know it is a tad vulgar [says "fuck" a lot...but we all say that word when we are quite emotional]

[veinglory]

See this is what i believe is the falacy within the genre. To me it is not real to end in such a romantic way.

The genre is what the genre is. Is being set in the historical West the 'fallacy' of the western? Genre romance is genre romance and it has a happy ending with a commited romantic unit. If you submitted any other kind of love story to a genre romance publisher, well they wouldn't want it any more than a publisher of mathematical textbooks would want a space opera. But genre romance is not the place for every kind of love story--it is just one genre category.

[Wolvel]

Have you ried to find you a good agent? If not you may want to go that route since they could better guide you to the right publisher.

[Paichka]

This is what I'd recommend, publishing neophyte that I am.

Step 1: Post your first chapter to SYW. Not your 53rd, though I'm about to go take a look at that in a moment. Your first. Why? Because agents typically request the first three chapters (or first 50 pages) when they request a partial. Your first chapter must do a couple of things -- 1) grab the reader from the first line, and 2) build a cohesive and compelling story on which you are going to hang the rest of the novel. Most people standing in a bookstore scan the first page (if even that), so your first page is arguable the most important to making a sale.

Your last page is probably the most important in making a repeat customer. ;)

Step 2: Post your query letter in the Query Letter Hell of SYW.

If you are getting positive feedback from readers, that's great! You clearly have a compelling story. But publishers and agents get many more compelling stories than they can conceivably offer representation to, so you MUST make sure that YOUR story stands out from the pack. The query letter must be sharp sharp sharp, and the first three chapters so tight you could bounce a quarter off of them.

Good luck!

[stc]

"I am a new writer."

"... my latest novel, which because of its genre/content has been denyed by 3 editors/publishers."

"I am not an english major..."

..." my grammer and all is a bit off."

" I am a 20 year old gay guy "

You say your "latest novel" was "denyed" because of its genre/content.

Somebody's gotta tell you: The situation is much simpler than you realize.

Your novel was rejected because it wasn't good enough.

Writing a publishable novel is extraordinarily difficult, even for someone with years of reading and writing experience. George V. Higgins wrote TEN novels before "The Friends of Eddie Coyle" was published. And Higgins was a journalist with a law degree! There are thousands of such examples.

So, you're 20-yrs-old, have never studied writing, but because you're passionate about your novel, you expect it to be published?

You need to distinguish between an achievable goal and a fantasy. One gets a sense of cluelessness reading your post.

Study writing. First learn basic grammar and syntax.

[kzmiller]

I truly appreciate where you're coming from. Your passion for this book will serve it well and hopefully will get your through the tough road of learning what it takes to become a writer.

In order to learn to write you'll have to learn to read all over again, this time as a critical reader with an eye for seeing what's happening on the page and what makes prose work. Try picking up some books similar to yours so that you can define more clearly exactly what sets yours apart but also what made them work/publishable. Also, reading outside your category at books generally accepted to be masterworks helps. Doing this alone is hard. You'll be able to find help here. Getting together with others to discuss the writing in person is even better.

You'll also have to learn to listen to others' experiences and knowledge. The great thing about this site is that there are so many helpful people with lots of experience. It's easy to fall into the trap of defending your work. Try to set the issue of what's wrong and right with your book aside for now and focus on expanding your horizons. Nothing bad will happen to your story if you start looking around here and accepting what people who you learn to trust say. You can keep your novel safe in your heart and if you want never bring it up again that's fine. There are others just starting out and there are folks with many books published and you can see how they do and how they succeed and fail and try again. Find threads that interest you and start reading. It's worth it.

[pretticute80]

Okay, thank you for reading and all of your comments [for starters].

I am a new writer. I wrote one novel before (not published) that was more of a suspense type novel. But my heart and soul were poured into my latest novel, which because of its genre/content has been denyed by 3 editors/publishers.

I am not an english major [actually i am a finance/econ duel] so because of which my grammer and all is a bit off. But the content of the novel and purpose of the novel (in my opinion as well as 11 out of the 12 people who have read it) say it is quite amazing.

The problem is that it is very gay

Hey and welcome! Just like you, I am new so you can take or leave my advice. Your story sounds interesting to me although I do not tend to read gay novels (unless they are erotica but that is my kink:e2brows:), so I cannot say your story is original or if there is a market for sure but I can say with certainty there is no market for an unedited story. None. No matter how good the story is.



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but most publishers don't care about color, orientation, schooling, etc of the author or the subject. quote]
I disagree with this statement slightly. Green is an important color to publishers but they are still mindful of race, sexual orientation, etc. because they want what sell. If the trend is gay purple dinosaur versus pink vampires, they tend to offer deals to writers writing about gay purple dinosaurs –given the writer polished the story.
[quote=jwbajorek;2527215]
What upsets me is i view being gay as one aspect of who i am. I do not introduce myself as gay nor do I believe I am who i am because i am gay ~ but society through all of their torment and anguish see our community as "gay". People believe that being gay is no big deal and because they believe that (which i totally agree that being gay is just an aspect of who we are), the discrimination and the glares are obvious. You do not need to speak words to show homophobia. You don't need to burn rainbow flags or scream "faggot" out of the window to announce that you hate us. We can tell in your eyes and your body language. As we walk down the streets holding hands and you cross the street to avoid walking by us. Or you shake your head or advert your eyes ~ that is what is killer. Because people see us as minorities and are not afraid to feel ashamed. And this view from society is what is killer. And not every gay guy is strong enough to overcome this hatred. And through this novel, i have used some of my own experiences and my psychological thinking of personal hatred and the feelings of shamefulness of myself because of how i am viewed to show society [both heteros and fellow homos] that being gay is okay but just because it is okay doesn't mean it is easy. I have seen one too many peers turn to dangerous activities to try to show their manliness in order for society to back off. And in my novel i have taken one character who is able to overcome the hatred to fully love himself and others while another character can't do it.

I’m not gay so I won’t say I understand what it’s like but I am a minority so I can empathizes that it does takes a strong person to embrace the skin they’re in and rise above others hatred. While these types of struggles do make interesting stories, if they are not told with some objectivity, a reader who has never been face with these types of issues first-hand won’t really connect with the story because it would come across as if you are yelling and ranting at them for crimes they did not commit. I hope I stated that clearly –it is the wee hours here and my rambling time. If not forgive me and hopefully I will be able to clarify :e2writer:.

See this is what i believe is the falacy within the genre. To me it is not real to end in such a romantic way. My ending [sure, i'll ruin it, lol] has the two main characters ~ two gay guys who the one loves the other with his heart and soul being true loves in a non physical manner. They are true best friends ~ for in my world, nothing is more romantic than the joy of having a true best friend.

And yes at the end of my novel, the main character meets a new guy who he feels is ideal. And i do allude to the fact that they are ideals. I do not believe in soul mates thus will not depict them as, but in the same manner ideals do exist.
Then you do not have a romance novel, love. You may have a love story and it could go under lit fic but not romance. Romance publishers and readers do not play about their formula –they had better have their HEA with the MCs they read about from the very start or there will be he** to pay. As a sometimes romance reader, I will be the first with my war cry if I do not get this –it is why I went to the romance section and what I paid my money for. Granted, some are sometimes unrealistic, cheesy and cliché to the point I throw up a little in my mouth but if that was the only way the romance author was able to give me my HEA, I will only be mildly annoyed whereas thoroughly :rant:pist if the MCs did not remain together if not forever but right now.
If you plan to publishing it as a romance, I would suggest altering your story so that your MC meets his new love interest earlier but even then, you would have to make your story centered around their love –not certain if you would wish to do that just for the sake of fitting into the romance genre. Try lit fic.

[Perle_Rare]

I know it is a tad vulgar [says "fuck" a lot...but we all say that word when we are quite emotional]

Actually, no we don't all do that.

Once you post your first chapter, I'll go take a look though I already know I'm not your target audience. I don't swear and I don't enjoy reading books that do. The topic of sexual orientation hadn't even come up yet.

1. Read Uncle Jim's thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710). It's long but it's worth it. It's invaluable. I really can't stress this enough.

2. Read, read, read. Read books in your genre. Read books in other genres. This will help you see if you have identified the genre correctly as I'm not convinced you really have a romance here. It will also show you which publishers print works that are closest to yours and who might be interested in considering yours.

3. Revise your book. By now you'll have read Uncle Jim's thread and you'll have a completely different view of what revising is about. Revise, revise, revise. Create the best book you can create. That includes fixing all your grammatical errors, typos, etc. You may not think they're important but your book will be judged by someone who invariably will. You want to make the best impression you can.

And finally, don't give up!

Best of luck!

[callalily61]

Definitely let me know when you post in SYW--I don't work with litfic usually so I won't automatically see it. :)

[Phaeal]

First off, do have a look at sites like Writer's Market and AgentQuery. Tons of agents and publishers welcome gay fiction, including the mainstream New York biggies. There are also dozens of specialists in gay fiction and nonfiction. Your problem is not that there's no market out there.

From your posts, I suspect two problems:

-- As you recognize yourself, your grasp of the basics (grammar and spelling) is not at a professional level. No surprise, given your concentration and age. This is a problem far from particular to you -- I work with Ph.D. candidates in psychology, and the number of them who don't know the basics is sad. I blame it on the elementary and high school pundits who decided that it was evil to point out students' errors and wound their self-esteem.

Apart from the mechanics, you have a promising expressiveness and a sympathetic writing voice.

My guess is that your mechanics clunkers are going to preclude serious agent or publisher interest. Think of it this way: A pianist might have a great piece to play and a beautiful style, but if he keeps hitting the wrong notes, he's not ready for the concert hall.

There are many books and many web sites that will teach you the mechanics of grammar. Spell checkers will help -- be sure to pay attention when an error is found, so you'll spell that word right the next time. Like GRAMMAR, not grammer. But what might help you more is a personal tutor who can sit down with you and go over each line of your prose.

As you have a completed manuscript, you might also benefit from the services of a professional editor, who would give you a detailed line-by-line analysis of your prose and a detailed overview of the story, as well as suggestions for revision. Alas, good editors aren't cheap. If you can't afford one, then you need to look for a good AND TOUGH beta reader. Don't keep sending out a defective manuscript. The days when editors at publishing houses would take on substandard work are gone -- there's far too much work that DOES pass the initial test of professional competence for them to bother. Plus they wear so many hats, they rarely have time.

-- A second problem may be that you are still too close to your subject matter to turn it into fiction. The raw emotions of life don't readily translate into novels -- remember Wordworth's dictum about poetry emerging from emotion recalled in tranquility. Alas, tranquility can only come with time.

Anyhow, if you haven't done so already, why not post a couple chapters of your story on the Share Your Work forum? Then we can give you a better idea about what needs doing.

Don't give up. You're very young, and art is very long. If it really matters to you, it's time to start the arduous apprenticeship and learn to play the notes right before you try to step out on the stage at Carnegie Hall.

PS: Self-publishing is almost never a good choice for fiction. Not unless your work is already good enough for standard publishing and you're willing to spend your whole life promoting it. Even then, your work will bear a stigma, and you already know how punishing stigmas are.

[jwbajorek]

Here is Chapter One.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2528753#post2528753

And Phael, i will be back to read your post. I have to get ready for class.

Thanks :-)

-Jwbajorek

[IceCreamEmpress]

Having read both chapters, I'm going to say quite firmly that this manuscript is not yet ready for publication. There are still many mechanical errors (grammar, syntax, usage, spelling), and the flow isn't smooth yet.

You weren't "denyed for content" at all--you just sent a manuscript out long before it was ready. This isn't an uncommon error, especially among young writers.

Keep working on the book and refining it. Think about taking some creative writing courses in order to build your skills.

You're going to need at least two complete revisions (based on what you shared so far) before this is ready to send out--I don't know how many edited drafts you've done so far, but many people do three to five revisions before they send a manuscript out, and that might be a reasonable target for you.

Good luck!

[jwbajorek]

Having read both chapters, I'm going to say quite firmly that this manuscript is not yet ready for publication. There are still many mechanical errors (grammar, syntax, usage, spelling), and the flow isn't smooth yet.

You weren't "denyed for content" at all--you just sent a manuscript out long before it was ready. This isn't an uncommon error, especially among young writers.

Keep working on the book and refining it. Think about taking some creative writing courses in order to build your skills.

You're going to need at least two complete revisions (based on what you shared so far) before this is ready to send out--I don't know how many edited drafts you've done so far, but many people do three to five revisions before they send a manuscript out, and that might be a reasonable target for you.

Good luck!


Yeah I know it needs a lot of revisions and I am working on it, slowly. It is just that I have this habit of being absorbed by the novel and reading it versus editting it (does that make any sense?)

Does anyone have any tips on how to see these editting errors as I read? I have read it outloud a couple of times and have picked on some of the more convential errors.

And yeah I probably did send it out too early. I was just happy that I was able to finish a novel i adored. This is not my genre at all for me to naturally read, so it is often hard to judge what is seen as "great" but from what people have said it seems promising.

I will have a few more peers edit and read it and I will continue to try to revise it. But if you guys have any tips that would be helpful. I read through some topics on tips and they have been very helpful! :-)

For records sake, i am very thrilled that i found this forum. You all seem like quite lovely people willing to help out those of us who are quite ignorant (but willing to learn) of the writing world :-)

-jwbajorek

[jwbajorek]

So, you're 20-yrs-old, have never studied writing, but because you're passionate about your novel, you expect it to be published?

You need to distinguish between an achievable goal and a fantasy. One gets a sense of cluelessness reading your post.

Study writing. First learn basic grammar and syntax.

There is a difference between studying writing and practicing writing. For instance, yes i have studied writing all through high school and through college. I read more than the average person and truly love the art of writing, but that does mean I am a master at it. In the same regards, we all study accounting/investing purposes in high school and in college, yet you will be surprised at how many people truly don't know how to do even do the basic bank reconciliations.

We all have what we are good at and what we do because it interests us. I am good at finance/economics/accounting and could articulate beautifully the art of financial economics though struggle with the writing aspect.

Actually, I am in the process of configuring writing a research topic discussing the psychological investment practices within the investing community at large during recessionary times ~ such as when/how a investor would be more inclined to sell versus hold depending on how they view said asset. It is something that i briefly touched base on in one of my previous term papers and fell in love with the topic. That is why i enjoy finance over accounting. Accounting is black and white. Finance is more psychologically based. Okay, enough discussion because my blood is flowing quite swiftly in excitement.

But with the book, i understand fantasy versus practical. Do i ever expect to be published? Yes. Is it a fantasy? Of course. But i set high goals for myself and will do what i can do acheive said goals. If i do not get published, will it kill my spirit? No. And that is the difference between someone who understands the difference between fantasy and practicalness. For metamorphing them together but understanding them a part all in one retrospective cluster is the true, sane way of viewing said piece.

And i wonder who all can understand my often quite jumbled logical thinking :-)
Let me know if you do.

-jwbajorek

[ORION]

Listen to icecream...I read your piece and I agree
After my second or third draft I let my novels sit for at least a month and often times longer. I then start my next project. When I go back to the previous project my "fresh eyes" see things I would not have picked up.
Also.
Read.
Read ALL TYPES OF LITERATURE. Reading will teach you syntax, grammar, word usage.
To me it sounds like you are not a native english speaker and also it sounds like you are in college? If that is so TAKE WRITING AND ENGLISH CLASSES as many as you can.
and then keep writing- I didn't get published until I was 54.
The key is never give up.

[nevada]

And for the record, may I say that it is lovely to meet a new writer who is so passionate about his work and yet so willing to listen to critiques that don't tell him that every word he wrote is golden. It's fantastic that you can take that step back and look at your work with a critical eye. I suggest you put the book away for a few months. Don't read it, don't look at. Read some books about writing fiction, read the Uncle Jim Thread, just generally pick up some more knowledge about story and scene structure, characterization, things like that. And then go back. I'm willing to bet that you'll be able to see past what you think you wrote and see what you really wrote and be able to edit it quite well.

Welcome to the board. Hope you write many more books you are this passionate about.

[ORION]

Okay...
ctually, I am in the process of configuring writing a research topic discussing the psychological investment practices within the investing community at large during recessionary times ~ such as when/how a investor would be more inclined to sell versus hold depending on how they view said asset. It is something that i briefly touched base on in one of my previous term papers and fell in love with the topic. That is why i enjoy finance over accounting. Accounting is black and white. Finance is more psychologically based. Okay, enough discussion because my blood is flowing quite swiftly in excitement."

This is an example of the wordiness I was describing earlier. Whether you major in English or finance you will still need to simplify and organize your thoughts so others can understand them.
You are getting great advice (in kindness) from everyone here. Please do not feel I am being mean.
It sounds like you can produce a decent first or second draft but as icecream says it is not publishable- it takes aggressive editing - not just for spelling, grammar and punctuation but for plot arc, language use, clarity -- and that takes practice -- writing novel after novel...

[Perle_Rare]

Does anyone have any tips on how to see these editting errors as I read? I have read it outloud a couple of times and have picked on some of the more convential errors.


There are a number of existing threads on the topic. Just do a search.


It is just that I have this habit of being absorbed by the novel and reading it versus editting it (does that make any sense?)


Some people edit their book starting from the end so they can judge each sentence on its own merit. This avoids the trap of getting caught up in the story.

I still seriously recommend reading all of Uncle Jim's thread. There's a mine of information right there. He occasionally provides texts and analyzes what works and what doesn't.

I also recommend "The First Five Pages" by Noah Lukeman.

Have fun!

[amber_grosjean]

I think everyone here has given great advice. The most important thing to remember is not to rush this sort of thing. Take your time and learn how to edit. Then take your story and edit the whole thing, just one line at a time. Make your corrections directly to the piece and don't work on rewriting it until you are finished editing.

Once you're done editing, go back and begin rewriting the piece until you're done. Now read it over. Does the story make sense? Did you check all the spelling? Did you use the correct to, two, and too (and other words with different spellings). Invest in a good dictionary and thesaurus because you will rely on it for other books. You can use Microsoft Word but don't count on it to be perfect, it does make mistakes.

Ask those people to read it again and see if the story has improved. You really want this story to be perfect. Publishers do find reasons to reject a piece. They don't care if you're straight or gay. They're just interested in the story. The people here are right, if the story is good, it needs to stand out above all the other good stories. It won't matter to that publisher if you're red with green dots all over.

And as far as marketing goes. No matter who signs with you, you will need to market the book as much as you possibly can. A single publisher, yes even those big houses, can't possibly market every single author that walks in their door. They only have so much finances to pass around. So who do you think gets that? That's right--those authors who have been with them for a while and they know they can push their books.

Self-publishing is the same way. If you can afford it, try it. But going that route doesn't say the book is great. Some authors have made successful careers by going that route but they chose it that way and marketed their books like there was no tomorrow too.

I hope you're able to get your book published and it sells millions of copies. It sounds like a great story, just needs a little twinking! And welcome to AW too!

Amber

[dempsey]

I didn't see anyone else saying this. But even if someone else has, it bears repeating.

You're too close to this story in far too many ways. Put it aside. Write something else. Come back to it in a few months. You'll be better equipped to edit that way.

[David I]

Are these dozen readers you mention big readers of novels? If not, then they may not be your best test group.

Here's what I would recommend:

1) Get involved in a writing workshop--a community college, or a local critique group. (I know there plenty of workshops at four-year colleges, too, but they tend to be less bare-knuckles in their approach.) This will help you get more perspective on your book and whether or not it is ready for prime time.

2) When you are confident it is good and polished and other competent writers endorse that view, try and get an agent. Plenty of agents handle gay material; plenty of agents are, in fact, gay. So are plenty of people in publishing.

3) Don't toss things directly to publishers unless you know exactly what you're doing. Most of them won't read unsolicited material. And don't call the people working for publishers "publicists." Publicists are PR people. The people who decide whether or not to buy your book are all "editors" (whether they edit or not).

James Lee Burke's brilliant, widely praised, high-selling Lost Get-Back Boogie was submitted one hundred and eleven times before someone decided to publish it. So don't look at three rejections and assume that your novel is great but the subject matter is just too heavy for publishers to deal with. Three rejections doesn't tell you a damn thing.

Harry Potter was turned down by far more than three publishers, and I don't think anyone ever concluded those rejections were because of any controversial content. It's not a logical conclusion. Almost everybody here--with a few birght exceptions--has had dozens and dozens of rejections. It's normal.

[James D. Macdonald]

Meanwhile, start work on your next novel.

[ideagirl]

Thanks all.
they have read it and one publicist said it was 'good' but not their genre and to pick a publicist who might be more inclined to publish a novel that is more into this type of work [or something to that regards]. They specificially did not imply "no because you are a faggot" but that is the assumption that i have gotten.

"Good but not their genre" means you submitted it to the wrong publishers. You need to do your research to determine who publishes gay romance, and submit your novel there. If I wrote an excellent science fiction novel, would I have any luck submitting it to Harlequin? No, because Harlequin only publishes romance. There are many books out there that help you target which publishers take such books, and also, if you read gay romance, just look at the books and see who published them.

Also, like other posters, I have to say that I hope you had someone else proofread both your manuscript and you query letter before submitting. It all needs to look professional when you submit it.

[James D. Macdonald]

What do you mean by "publicist" in this context?

[Andre_Laurent]

Yeah I know it needs a lot of revisions and I am working on it, slowly. It is just that I have this habit of being absorbed by the novel and reading it versus editting it (does that make any sense?)

Does anyone have any tips on how to see these editting errors as I read? I have read it outloud a couple of times and have picked on some of the more convential errors.

And yeah I probably did send it out too early. I was just happy that I was able to finish a novel i adored. This is not my genre at all for me to naturally read, so it is often hard to judge what is seen as "great" but from what people have said it seems promising.

I will have a few more peers edit and read it and I will continue to try to revise it. But if you guys have any tips that would be helpful. I read through some topics on tips and they have been very helpful! :-)

For records sake, i am very thrilled that i found this forum. You all seem like quite lovely people willing to help out those of us who are quite ignorant (but willing to learn) of the writing world :-)

-jwbajorek
My tip for the day. Put it away for a month or so and don't look at it at all. Then when you edit you will see all kinds of things you missed before. If it works for Stephen King it's good enough for me.

Edit: Hah! Now I see that someone else already tossed this one out to you.