The bad guys....changing...

[BlueLucario]

I spent a couple of weeks developing the bad guy characters, because well, how's the main character supposed to kick butt if there aren't any bad guys? I've created a few that I intended to be the bad guys, and then over time, they become good. One of my bad guys from my fight scene was supposed to be the sarcastic type, the fire breathing chick who hypnotizes men with her breasts.(Not really.) But overtime, she becomes nice to my MC, she's a mom who's just forced to do bad things. She's supposed to capture my character, in order to save her 10 year old son from the abuse he got from science expiriments. I had another one, she's supposed to be like 14 years old, becoming an assassin pet of the really bad guy(and having a sexual relationship), but she isn't aware that she was a missing child, and she can't remember her parents.

I only have one bad guy now, but he's just...bad, and villains aren't supposed to be that way, there has to be a reason he's bad, and sociopaths don't count anymore. I can't figure out why he's just so bad. He's the type of person who would mess with other people's feelings. Instigate fights, and raping women, and I just found out that he's gay!

At the moment, it's really hard to come up with a competent bad guy, even the henchmen. But when I do, they end up changing into the good guys, they become nice to my MC. I don't want them to be nice, just plain mean.

I'm sort of having trouble making bad people period. How do you make a well-rounded bad guy, that people would hate so much and yet still love him.

[tehuti88]

Realistic bad guys tend to not believe they're really the bad guys and this is what makes them dangerous. They believe they're in the right, even if they know what they're doing is wrong, and there's often very little that will change their minds. Take the example of your slutty character who is doing bad things because she has to help her son. Would she befriend your MC if it meant her son would end up dead? I doubt it.

I don't think it's the bad guys you have to work on so much as your reaction to their motivations. You really need them to start sticking by what they do, even if it's inconvenient to your good guys. If your slutty character is only doing bad things to protect her son, well, make sure she has to KEEP doing bad things to protect her son. Make sure that doing bad things is the only way a bad guy can get their own ends met, and make sure that these bad things are always going to be in opposition to the good guys. Make sure, for example, that if this character tries to befriend your MC, it means trouble for her son. She will definitely choose him over your main character. That's life. It's not pretty, but it's true.

I saw a TV show about Vietnam the other day where a pregnant guerilla fighter attacked an American soldier. He had to kill her. They were both probably decent people, but they both had their own ends to meet, and those ends were in direct conflict with each other. As a result, they did not become friends. You really can't have your slutty character, for example, become friends with your good guys if she's really intent on saving her son. Everyone has priorities, and she would need to choose. You can't always have both.

Don't be afraid to make your characters selfish sometimes. Self-preservation, and preservation of what's most important to us, is only human. When it's something we really, REALLY want, many of us tend to be selfish at certain points. Your slutty mom character would probably be selfish and choose the fate of her son over the fate of your main character any day.

[Rolling Thunder]

I've got a character that starts out as a 'bad' guy until he realizes the implications his prior actions will inflict. Deep down he's a good guy, the white knight in rusty armor, but he's been through enough that he believed he didn't care anymore; at least not until the stakes became personal. One of the 'good' guys becomes the antagonist midway through the story, much to the dismay of the MC. It all depends on how you want to drive the plot. I prefer character driven stories so I try to give mine interesting pasts and complicated personalities.

I pay attention to people that really rub me the wrong way in RL and use them as models.

[maestrowork]

Bad people can do good things, or vice versa. And unless you're writing very clean archetypes and stereotypes (good vs. evil type stories), no one is purely evil and purely good. There are a lot of grays in between.

Still, you need to understand your "bad" guys' motivations. Why do they do the things they do? What do they want? If you find that your bad guys eventually are good to the MC, then you have ask: Why? What makes them become good to the MC? What changes? Do they still want the things they want? If your bad guys just change for no reasons, then you really don't understand your bad characters and their motivations well enough -- it's a symptom of someone just trying to manipulate the characters and situations, instead of drawing on "real" characters.

[BlueLucario]

Still, you need to understand your "bad" guys' motivations. Why do they do the things they do? What do they want? If you find that your bad guys eventually are good to the MC, then you have ask: Why? What makes them become good to the MC? What changes? Do they still want the things they want? If your bad guys just change for no reasons, then you really don't understand your bad characters and their motivations well enough -- it's a symptom of someone just trying to manipulate the characters and situations, instead of drawing on "real" characters.

It's sort of like, there's information behind the bad guy that would eventually be nice to the good guy. The Big Bad guy, he does bad things, I'd say I would compare him to Prefessor Umbridge on Harry Potter, nice, but purely bad. I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. I think the Big Bad just wants to get his way, he'll get what he wants. He doesn't care if it would hurt other people, or if his henchmen died, he will get what he wants. And he's like Hitler, he wants to destroy the "Muggle"(I need a name for the non-magical people.) race, when he's the muggle himself.

[Prozyan]

And he's like Hitler, he wants to destroy the "Muggle"(I need a name for the non-magical people.) race, when he's the muggle himself.

That is what he wants. The important question is why does he want this? Boredom? Something to do on the weekend? Pure fun?

There has to be motivation for the bad guy, reasons for why he wants to achieve his/her particular set of goals. You seem to have his wants and desires, but are lacking on motive.

Your bad guys may be wandering because you don't have hard set motivations for them, so they are attaching wherever.

Even Hitler had motivations behind his actions.

[BlueLucario]

That is what he wants. The important question is why does he want this? Boredom? Something to do on the weekend? Pure fun?

There has to be motivation for the bad guy, reasons for why he wants to achieve his/her particular set of goals. You seem to have his wants and desires, but are lacking on motive.

Your bad guys may be wandering because you don't have hard set motivations for them, so they are attaching wherever.

Even Hitler had motivations behind his actions.

And I have no idea WHY Hitler would do what he did? I just accepted the fact that he's crazy.

I would say, that the normal people are considered inferior to the bad guy, and the people who use magic are mistreated and feared by the normal people. I know there should be a reason why he's helping the magical people, just can't think of something.

[CaroGirl]

And I have no idea WHY Hitler would do what he did? I just accepted the fact that he's crazy.
You seriously don't understand Hitler's agenda? Go pick up a history book and find out. Simplification: According to Hitler, he was going to single-handedly SAVE the German people from the tyranny of Jews and foreigners (among other things). In his own mind, he was a HERO. And he wasn't just crazy.

[katiemac]

It's sort of like, there's information behind the bad guy that would eventually be nice to the good guy. The Big Bad guy, he does bad things, I'd say I would compare him to Prefessor Umbridge on Harry Potter, nice, but purely bad. I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it's good enough. I think the Big Bad just wants to get his way, he'll get what he wants. He doesn't care if it would hurt other people, or if his henchmen died, he will get what he wants. And he's like Hitler, he wants to destroy the "Muggle"(I need a name for the non-magical people.) race, when he's the muggle himself.

Umbridge had motivations. She didn't think she was bad. She believed she was doing right by the law. She also had prejudices against magical creatures who weren't wizards and thought she was right to have those prejudices.

Voldemort is the same way. Like your last couple of lines, he wanted to destroy the muggle race even though he was half. Hating that side of himself was his motivation.

[BlueLucario]

Voldemort is the same way. Like your last couple of lines, he wanted to destroy the muggle race even though he was half. Hating that side of himself was his motivation.

So it's low self-esteem and being motivated by self-hatred. Voldemort was bad, but there weren't anything to justify what he did. Just the fact that he's bad. Not abuse, or molestation or being bullied on by his peer, nothing that would make me cry and feel sorry for him. He's pure evil, but at the same time, it comes a bit flat. That's all that was needed to be a motivation, self-hate?

[Prozyan]

If you are speaking of Hitler (or Voldemort for that matter), neither had low self-esteem. Rather, both thought very highly of themselves.

I'll assume you are speaking of Voldemort, since that is the name you quoted. His motivations ranged far deeper than simple self-hate, though that was a contributing factor. Like any good character, there are a multitude of happenings that created the person Voldemort was and his motivations for action.

These include the inability to love due to the manner of his conception, fear of death (perhaps his biggest motivation), lust for power, racism, and his general views on humanity.

But are you making a clone of Voldemort, or your own bad guy?

[katiemac]

Voldemort was bad, but there weren't anything to justify what he did.

Prozyan has listed some of Voldemort's other qualities. It doesn't matter if YOU feel sorry for him or think he is justified. Voldemort believes he is justified (as did Hitler).

[Birol]

Blue, I think you need to stop studying fictional characters and start studying people. You cannot use real people as the basis for your fiction, but it's an attempt to understand them and their motivations that lead to believable fictional characters.

Go read a book on psychology.

[CaroGirl]

Blue, I think you need to stop studying fictional characters and start studying people. You cannot use real people as the basis for your fiction, but it's an attempt to understand them and their motivations that lead to believable fictional characters.

Go read a book on psychology.
Or history. Why did Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin (Russia), Mao (China), Idi Amin (Uganda), Caucescu (Romania) do what they did? There are no shortage of "bad guy motivations" to study, honestly.

[Ken]

I'd have to agree with Blue on this one. Hitler was just plain crazy. Sure he had reasons for incinerating 10 million people and starving them to death but those reasons were screwy and didn't add up to jack. So bottom line, he had no motivation for doing what he did other than the fact that he was inherently evil and mentally deranged. When writing mainstream novels, though, an author really does have to give bad guys motivation for what they do, as stated...even if things don't actually work like this in reality.

[Prozyan]

those reasons were screwy and didn't add up to jack.

And what would those reasons be?

[kuwisdelu]

I'd have to agree with Blue on this one. Hitler was just plain crazy. Sure he had reasons for incinerating 10 million people and starving them to death but those reasons were screwy and didn't add up to jack. So bottom line, he had no motivation for doing what he did other than the fact that he was inherently evil and mentally deranged.

Not quite the bottom line, no. The point is that even the crazy characters need motivation. That motivation and logic can be screwy and twisted to the rest of us, but that motivation does need to be there. Take the Joker from The Dark Knight. Yeah, he was crazy. Yeah, he committed crimes for thrills and laughs. Yeah, he was pure, in-your-face evil. But even he had an agenda--he wanted to prove that even the best of the best could be corrupted, that at the end of the day there are no morals, that ultimately, chaos is the only law, because these are the kinds of things he witnessed in the world. And that kind of motivation is what made him all the more real and terrifying.

[CaroGirl]

I'm no historian, believe me. My take: Hitler was primarily motivated by a long-held, pervasive Eastern European belief that Jews were not human in the way that Aryans were. Through ignorance and fear, many people thought the Jews were evil, inhuman beings who would cause the downfall of Germany if they were allowed to remain and flourish there. Hitler was by far NOT the only person who felt this way.

Sure, he was an evil lunatic, but he had an agenda that made sense not only to him, but to others around him.

[Ken]

I agree that crazy characters / bad guys need motivation in most fiction and movies, but not in reality.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Hitler was just plain crazy. Sure he had reasons for incinerating 10 million people and starving them to death but those reasons were screwy and didn't add up to jack. So bottom line, he had no motivation for doing what he did other than the fact that he was inherently evil and mentally deranged.

This is a huge and dangerous oversimplification of history. To reduce genocides to the idea that "one crazy person" was, or could be, responsible is to make it more difficult for us to understand them fully and do what we can to prevent them from happening again.

I recommend the book Understanding Hitler by Ron Rosenbaum. If you don't understand the "Final Solution" in context, you miss the opportunity to learn from history.

[Ken]

Sure, he was an evil lunatic, but he had an agenda that made sense not only to him, but to others around him.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Holocaust123.JPG (graphic picture from the holocaust.)

[FOTSGreg]

I have some "bad guys" in the book (series actually) I'm writing who are bad only in that they made a mistake. The main character in the book meets one of their agents early on who tries to swing him to their side explaining that they were trying to fix something they saw as a problem. In the process they made a huge mistake and a lot of people died and more are still dying because of their mistake. The agent explains that they're trying to fix the problem, but they need time. The main character doesn't care. His family and friends are already dead. He's after revenge and thinks the bad guys will only compound the problem.

So, who's the bad guy in this situation? Those who caused the problem in the first place and got people killed? Or is it the main character who's looking for his revenge and whose goal has become simply to stop the "bad guys"?

Both parties believe they're in the right, but both have morally ambiguous points of view.

Your bad guys can be really, really evil - or they can be just people who think they're doing the right thing from their POV. If they're really good people who thought they were doing something that would benefit everyone, that makes the bad guys interesting in their own right - maybe more so than truly evil people who absolutely know what they're doing is right for them and everyone else around them.

[maestrowork]

And I have no idea WHY Hitler would do what he did? I just accepted the fact that he's crazy.

There are a lot of documentaries and stuff about Hitler and his background, etc.

But you're not writing about Hitler. You're not writing about Umbridge. You're writing about a character in your story! If you don't even know what YOUR character wants, how would the readers even have an idea?

Again, I'm asking you, do you know your characters, or are they just little toys you place on the board? "They just do bad things" is not good enough. You may not know why Umbridge does the things she does, but JK Rowling certainly did.

[Birol]

I would like to remind everyone that this is a discussion of the motivations of fictional characters. Historical figures are to be discussed in relation to the motivations of fictional characters, as fictional characters reflect those motivations, as real life motivations are reflected by fictional characters, and how writers use real life/historical motivations in their writing.

If you wish to discuss the holocaust outside of the realm of fiction, then it needs to be taken to P&CE.

[Ken]

sorry folks. Bit emotional on the issue. Backing away for a few...

[Hummingbird]

I need to study more on Hitler myself, but as to Voldemort I actually pity him a little. He hates his father (I can't remember why at the moment) and that translates into hating muggles. If I remember right his father was a muggle. He wants to save the 'pure' blooded wizards so that they would not have to deal with those people that are similar to his father.

He sounds abused to me.

[CaroGirl]

anis, my child could have been standing behind me when I opened this thread. I don't appreciate that photo.

I know the atrocities Hitler committed and am as appalled as you are.

[Cato]

Or history. Why did Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin (Russia), Mao (China), Idi Amin (Uganda), Caucescu (Romania) do what they did? There are no shortage of "bad guy motivations" to study, honestly.

You can hardly lump Lenin and Mao in with that group. Bush would fit the list a lot more. Oh wait, I forgot that communism is pure evil, right?

[Mad Queen]

A method that seems to work for me is asking yourself what your villain would have to believe to be the way he is. Then remind yourself of his beliefs everytime you are writing about him. For instance, suppose your villain is a rapist. Some rapists believe that they have the right to rape their victims because they believe their victims were teasing them. You can create more beliefs until you think his actions are coherent.

If you are like me, you'll find that a character will rarely change his mind. In my WOP, a character has to persuade another to stop using cocaine and have a more professional attitude at work. It sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? But given this character's beliefs, he doesn't want to change and this is creating a problem for me.

[Prozyan]

On Voldemort's motivations, or at least one aspect of it: His hatred of muggles was driven by his self-loathing for being half-muggle. It is a common over-defense mechanism for a person to project what they hate about themselves onto others, then attempt to destroy that thing. It is often a basis for hatred of certain groups such as homosexuals, etc.

Now, when discussing the motivations behind Hitler, it really isn't relevant to bring up his atrocities. The atrocities were the result of his motivations, not the cause. And just because he did horrible, terrible things does not mean he can be marginalized as simply "crazy". To do, as mentioned earlier, means we miss an opportunity to learn what made Hitler and miss an opportunity to prevent something similar from happening again. It is very much like saying 9/11 happened because Arabs hate us for our freedom.

In order for a character to be truly three-dimensional -- whether that character is the good guy, the bad guy, or the morally ambiguous guy -- you must understand why your character thinks and acts the way he does, as well as his motivations behind his wants and desires.

[Shweta]

Just ftr, I upped the warning on the atrocity pic. Should be easy not to click on it now.

Motivations are worth talking about in character terms, and bringing in atrocity pictures is a derail as well as being disturbing, but it would be very hard to split this derail out of the thread, so let's maybe move on?

[Rasun]

What about characters like Dragon Ball Z's Majin Buu, or Bat Man's The Joker? They don't seem to have reasons for their Evil nature... Because The Joker's insane, and Buu was just evil.

[Prozyan]

Not quite the bottom line, no. The point is that even the crazy characters need motivation. That motivation and logic can be screwy and twisted to the rest of us, but that motivation does need to be there. Take the Joker from The Dark Knight. Yeah, he was crazy. Yeah, he committed crimes for thrills and laughs. Yeah, he was pure, in-your-face evil. But even he had an agenda--he wanted to prove that even the best of the best could be corrupted, that at the end of the day there are no morals, that ultimately, chaos is the only law, because these are the kinds of things he witnessed in the world. And that kind of motivation is what made him all the more real and terrifying.

Already been covered very well, by Kuwisdelu.

And I personally wouldn't cite Buu an example of great characterization. Especially considering killing is what he was created to do. Its not like he has any deep characterization at all.

[katiemac]

What about characters like Dragon Ball Z's Majin Buu, or Bat Man's The Joker? They don't seem to have reasons for their Evil nature... Because The Joker's insane, and Buu was just evil.

It depends on which version of the Joker you're discussing, but Kuwisdelu gave a nice overview of Heath Ledger's Joker's motivations. He wants to prove anyone is corruptible after one bad day. He even takes offense when people call him crazy: "I'm not crazy. I'm. not." Like any good villain, his motivations evolve through the course of his story. In addition to his one bad day theory, he decides he must exist to give Batman a contender.

Some characters don't have motivations though. And that's okay but it has to work for the story. "Just because" doesn't work well for a lot of stories, but when it works it can be brilliant. Think Anton Chigurh in No Country For Old Men. You could boil his motivations down to the money but it's my impression that actually has little to do with it.

[Shweta]

What about characters like Dragon Ball Z's Majin Buu, or Bat Man's The Joker? They don't seem to have reasons for their Evil nature... Because The Joker's insane, and Buu was just evil.

Not to overgeneralize, but those are both comics. You can often get away with less realistic motivations in a comic (and in movies; my guess is that the visual medium makes everything so much more real that the storytelling doesn't have to be as plausible for suspension of disbelief).

I am not, at all, saying that all comics (or movies) have less realistic/fleshed out motivations. I do know better, I study comics :D
I'm just saying that some things that work in manga or comics don't in prose.

oh and, :welcome:

[dempsey]

I submit that Voldemort also suffered from bad-seed-ism, which is a tragedy that I have gone into, at length, and will spare you all.

Villains are characters too. They deserve to be examined and analyzed. It's easy to say a villain is bad "just 'cause" and not go into it. It's easy to just have someone do bad things, so that your hero has something to fight against.

So you start by asking why they do what they do. Then ask what a reasonable person would do to achieve their goals.

Why would someone want to take over the world? Maybe they grew up without validation. Maybe they are just ambitious to a reckless extent. Maybe they have a vision of what the world could be like, happy and peaceful, if they could only control it.

Then, go to how they'd do it. Brute force or political maneuvering? Either way, they'd have to be charismatic enough to get followers, at least in the early stages. Then the show of force could come in, but once loyal followers are enough in number. Or maybe they never use brute force, maybe they always stick with charm and promises.

And then you fall to the stupid evil-isms: double-crossing, reneging because they can, killing random underlings to show their strength. This will make a follower walk away, eventually. So don't do it.

Point is, even if people truly are evil, they still go their shit handled, and a lot of other people have to be behind it for the villain to get his/her way. Hitler wasn't alone in the holocaust. Stalin wasn't alone in the persistent slaughter of Russians. Polpot, Pinochet, Saddam, these guys weren't alone. To simplify the problem to one figure is to be unwilling to confront the potential for evil in every single person that walks around.

[Prozyan]

It Think Anton Chigurh in No Country For Old Men. You could boil his motivations down to the money but it's my impression that actually has little to do with it.

Ah, but even Anton had motivations behind his actions. Certainly, Chigurh could be described as a sociopath, but his actions still had motivation behind them. He didn't chase down Llewelyn because he was crazy; he had a motive. You are right, you could boil his motivations down to money, but I agree with you: this was only part of it. Personally, I think he enjoyed killing and got some sense of power/completion from it. His speech about causality and fate tend to give credence to this, in my mind. So, while his motivations might have been very shallow, they were still present.

Sure, sometimes his violence was extreme and random and perhaps unnecessary (killing to aquire a new vehicle, playing with the gas station attendant, etc), but even these events had motivation behind them.

[katiemac]

Ah, but even Anton had motivations behind his actions. Certainly, Chigurh could be described as a sociopath, but his actions still had motivation behind them. He didn't chase down Llewelyn because he was crazy; he had a motive. You are right, you could boil his motivations down to money, but I agree with you: this was only part of it. Personally, I think he enjoyed killing and got some sense of power/completion from it. His speech about causality and fate tend to give credence to this, in my mind. So, while his motivations might have been very shallow, they were still present.

Sure, sometimes his violence was extreme and random and perhaps unnecessary (killing to aquire a new vehicle, playing with the gas station attendant, etc), but even these events had motivation behind them.

I was actually thinking less of Llewelyn and more the gas station attendant. You're right, there's still a motive in there, even if it's not entirely clear.

[maestrowork]

A great villain is true and committed to his or her convictions. Whether it's power, money, or to prove a point, a villain seldom wavers. They may have doubts, and they may have weaknesses, and they may even change their minds, but they're very clear about what they want and what they will do to get it. Also, they think they're the heroes of their own stories.

[Linda Adams]

What's the overarching story problem--the thing that the MC has to stop? Start with that. The bad guy wants to [fill in the blank] because [why?].

[Prawn]

I think the OP's badguys sound more interesting than his/her good guys.

[Birol]

I think the OP's badguys sound more interesting than his/her good guys.

That's because they're more fully developed and more believable, such as this one:

...she's a mom who's just forced to do bad things. She's supposed to capture my character, in order to save her 10 year old son from the abuse he got from science expiriments.

We can understand a mother who is willing to go against her own conscience in order to keep her child from harm and we can wonder what type of bad things she was forced to do while wondering where the line is for her. How bad is she willing to be in order to save her son? That's someone we can empathize, and possibly sympathize, with.

[dempsey]

We can understand a mother who is willing to go against her own conscience in order to keep her child from harm and we can wonder what type of bad things she was forced to do while wondering where the line is for her. How bad is she willing to be in order to save her son? That's someone we can empathize, and possibly sympathize, with.

Kind of makes me think of the premise for the movie Frozen River (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90_D5nNNvQw) (which I should see but likely never will).

No, it's not unique. But it is recent :)

[FOTSGreg]

J.A. Konrath in "Whiskey Sour" places the reader inside the head of his serial killer villain on numerous occasions throughout the book, but simultaneously does not give the reader a good feeling about the villain in the novel. I cane away cheering for the hero (as well as thinking how they could have been so stupid on numerous occasions).

[Rasun]

It depends on which version of the Joker you're discussing, but Kuwisdelu gave a nice overview of Heath Ledger's Joker's motivations. He wants to prove anyone is corruptible after one bad day. He even takes offense when people call him crazy: "I'm not crazy. I'm. not." Like any good villain, his motivations evolve through the course of his story. In addition to his one bad day theory, he decides he must exist to give Batman a contender.

Well I guess that's where the directors went wrong because The Joker I've seen doesn't mind it if people say he's crazy. Heck in Justice League Unlimited as The Joker establishes The Royal Flush Gang, he admits that he's crazy. But oh well the poor clown's gone through many changes in his existence I guess that would just be another one... And He and Bat Man are like bad-blooded brothers anyway so The Joker has no problem being Bat Man's contender, because as well as they know each others tricks and techniques, you'd swear that if Bat Man and Joker weren't enemies they'd be friends or brothers.


Some characters don't have motivations though. And that's okay but it has to work for the story. "Just because" doesn't work well for a lot of stories, but when it works it can be brilliant. Think Anton Chigurh in No Country For Old Men. You could boil his motivations down to the money but it's my impression that actually has little to do with it.

*listening to Hau Ruck(Spezial K Remix) and Der Mussolini by KMFDM)

Well Kuwisdelu's overview of Heath Ledger's charactization of The Joker is my perception of how a villain should be. A good villain in my eyes is cruel, heartless, powerful, and is an excellent schemer, and very good at messing around with the hero's resolve, and motives,( of which the Joker as done many times.) And though I hadn't seen "No Country For Old Men" My guess would be that Anton's true motive is power. Because where as the desire for money is said to be root of all evil, it brings a sense of power. Because as Konryu in Ruroni Kenshin stated "Money is the proof that one possesses power." So they may be the case with Anton as well as any other villain who robs for money, gold, diamonds and jewels. The delusion of ruling the city as a king. And in truth no villain ever does evil acts on a "just because" basis, that includes the ones that are pure evil. I mean Destroying everything in his path was Buu's "programming" bringing about chaos was why Buu was born because of Bibidi's plans.( The actual motives behind Buu's creation are unclear.) I've even tried to incorporate appropriate motives behind my villains actions, but I feel I've failed to do so thus far.




Not to overgeneralize, but those are both comics. You can often get away with less realistic motivations in a comic (and in movies; my guess is that the visual medium makes everything so much more real that the storytelling doesn't have to be as plausible for suspension of disbelief).

I am not, at all, saying that all comics (or movies) have less realistic/fleshed out motivations. I do know better, I study comics :D
I'm just saying that some things that work in manga or comics don't in prose.

oh and, :welcome:

*Listening to Heirate Mich by Rammstein*

Then educate me, what a realistic motivation? Because as you know many villans either desire Totalitarianism, supremacy, freedom from their prison or in the case of some of my works their eternal resting place, world or galactic domination or devastation, revenge, peace, or "justice"( of which they become "anti-heroes") or Power,( I'm talking about the God like Power or immortality, so as to separate it from Totalitarianism, domination and supremacy.)

[Shweta]

Then educate me, what a realistic motivation?
I'd say any of these things could be realistic motivations if the writer really thinks through the ripple effects. If the motivation affects the character in a multitude of ways, some of which are a bit surprising but obviously right once the reader sees them, you've really got a coherent and fleshed-out villaincharacter. But at that point it'd be much more specific than "My motivation is Powah."

I'd say that where some comics, esp (standard) superhero comics, fall down, is that the motivations are one note. They can be explained completely in one simple sentence; they affect the hero and villain in plot-specific ways but don't bleed over into the rest of their lives as completely as they should. They feel simple and tacked-on. Now, it doesn't always matter in a visual medium, because the dynamism of the art and action will keep us going. I noticed that a fair amount when reading Wolverine comics.

And obviously there are exceptions. A lot of what Alan Moore does, for example, is deeply character driven; once we get away from superhero comics to, for example, Maus, this commentary is patently ridiculous.

I'm not saying all comics do it. Just that it works better in comics than it does in prose.

[BlueLucario]

What do you think of a villain who is like a two year old at the grocery store? MOMMY I WANT CANDY NOW!!

[ChaosTitan]

What do you think of a villain who is like a two year old at the grocery store? MOMMY I WANT CANDY NOW!!

I think they need to be taken outside and spanked.

[BlueLucario]

lol Chaos Titan. My villain is like that. Whatever the villain wants he gets or else.

[FennelGiraffe]

What do you think of a villain who is like a two year old at the grocery store? MOMMY I WANT CANDY NOW!!

I think if he has that little self-control he'll be extremely easy to defeat.

[Rasun]

I'd say any of these things could be realistic motivations if the writer really thinks through the ripple effects. If the motivation affects the character in a multitude of ways, some of which are a bit surprising but obviously right once the reader sees them, you've really got a coherent and fleshed-out villaincharacter. But at that point it'd be much more specific than "My motivation is Powah."

I'd say that where some comics, esp (standard) superhero comics, fall down, is that the motivations are one note. They can be explained completely in one simple sentence; they affect the hero and villain in plot-specific ways but don't bleed over into the rest of their lives as completely as they should. They feel simple and tacked-on. Now, it doesn't always matter in a visual medium, because the dynamism of the art and action will keep us going. I noticed that a fair amount when reading Wolverine comics.

And obviously there are exceptions. A lot of what Alan Moore does, for example, is deeply character driven; once we get away from superhero comics to, for example, Maus, this commentary is patently ridiculous.

I'm not saying all comics do it. Just that it works better in comics than it does in prose.

Well nice to see that I don't it right with later villains... Also I get the feeling that some villains aren't evil per say , they're just misunderstood,( specifically speaking the anti-heroes.)

[JJ Cooper]

Some of the best crime writers in the business have recently blogged about villians over at their site The Kill Zone (http://killzoneauthors.blogspot.com/).

Scroll down a couple and you will find some very interesting, and detailed posts.

JJ

[TPCSWR]

Well Kuwisdelu's overview of Heath Ledger's charactization of The Joker is my perception of how a villain should be. A good villain in my eyes is cruel, heartless, powerful, and is an excellent schemer, and very good at messing around with the hero's resolve, and motives,( of which the Joker as done many times.) And though I hadn't seen "No Country For Old Men" My guess would be that Anton's true motive is power. Because where as the desire for money is said to be root of all evil, it brings a sense of power. Because as Konryu in Ruroni Kenshin stated "Money is the proof that one possesses power." So they may be the case with Anton as well as any other villain who robs for money, gold, diamonds and jewels. The delusion of ruling the city as a king. And in truth no villain ever does evil acts on a "just because" basis, that includes the ones that are pure evil. I mean Destroying everything in his path was Buu's "programming" bringing about chaos was why Buu was born because of Bibidi's plans.( The actual motives behind Buu's creation are unclear.) I've even tried to incorporate appropriate motives behind my villains actions, but I feel I've failed to do so thus far.

Power is the reason behind almost every form of villian, both real-world and fictional. The whole point of doing evil things is almost always to gain something that makes them more powerful. The thing is that it may be the end goal, or it may be another stepping stone towards it.

For Hitler and Voldemort it was what they aimed directly for. I believe they felt that they could to overlook their "muggleness" if they had enough power. It would also let them change the world in a more direct manner. A lot of those who seemingly have no motivation fit in here, their motivation is to get power that will make them feel more important (and be honest, who here does not like power? We just aren't willing to seriously harm for it).

Others, like the Joker, have a goal that can only be achieved through gaining power. These people want to change something BIG and see only one way to do it. Or, they may want to changed something small (say, saving a loved one or a small area of land or what-have-you) and do big things to change it.

Whatever you do, make sure that power is given as a motive, and not a reason.

Well, that's my $0.02.

PS: someone may argue that Hitler fits into the second category. I only find this true if you take his goal to be erradicating Jews and non-Aryans. Personally, I think that he found a strong hatred and worked upon it to gain power for himself (and probably ended up completely convincing himself).

[JJ Cooper]

Power is the reason behind almost every form of villian, both real-world and fictional. The whole point of doing evil things is almost always to gain something that makes them more powerful.

Not always. Consider revenge or recognition.

JJ

[Neurotic]

Sometimes the best bad guys believe they're doing the right thing. That's always interesting too. Mind you, I like a good moral grey-area.

[Prozyan]

Power is nothing more than a tool in motivation. The pursuit of power is virtually always done for the furtherence of other goals. The pure pursuit of power is an extremely shallow motivation and doesn't really hold true for, I'd say, 99% of so-called villians. "He wants power." is a much weaker and less true sentence than "He wants power so he can achieve (insert random goal here)".

The pursuit of power is almost always just a means to an end and should be treated as such.

[BlueLucario]

I can't find a motivation for him. I thought as hard as I could, but nothing. I even found some ways to show how evil he is. I thought of him killing off some likable characters, like he's going to euthanize the mother character's son. and later on he's going to rape the mother character and shoot her in the face. He's also going to have sex with a fourteen year old girl that he kidnapped, and the moment the girl tells him that she remembers her parents, he kills her. The main character would be forced to kill her closest friend to save her own life. The Big Bad guy has put some of the characters through a lot of crap, especially the adult characters who have known him since they were teens.


I'm glad to hear the characters I mentioned were well developed, even the mother character. Don't ask how this happened, I don't know. Everything just came to me. I don't mind some of the characters changing erratically, as long as I got some bad guys left.

I'd use power as a motive and ego. He'll probably do what he can to make himself feel important. If no one agrees with his ways, well, he can make them. If he needs followers then he'll create followers. He's like a two year old with a bad ego.

[Mad Queen]

Power is important for every character, heroes and villains. Without power, they can't move the story forward.

[BlueLucario]

Good point

[dwellerofthedeep]

This villain sounds like he's doing a lot of really bad stuff, but perhaps you are already going too far to make this main villain evil. An antagonist could be a proper gentleman who is on the side opposite the hero, but this guy sounds irridemable. The rape, murder, rape, murder, sets up a pretty nasty character and may not even be necessary to make him a bad guy. Little things that annoy him could add to his motivation. I think one of the problems with a villain who is absolutely, soul-crushingly evil, is that they need some sort of motivation that makes their evil believable. The more unbelievably evil they are, the harder it will be to justify it short of madness or other cop-outs.

Depending on the readership you intend, you may want to tone it down anyway. Here I go again, rambling, oh well. Final point: Good and evil should not be monlithic. Just because you think someone is a good person doesn't mean they can't be a villain/antagonist as long as they oppose the hero for strong enough reasons.

[Rasun]

Power is the reason behind almost every form of villian, both real-world and fictional. The whole point of doing evil things is almost always to gain something that makes them more powerful. The thing is that it may be the end goal, or it may be another stepping stone towards it.

For Hitler and Voldemort it was what they aimed directly for. I believe they felt that they could to overlook their "muggleness" if they had enough power. It would also let them change the world in a more direct manner. A lot of those who seemingly have no motivation fit in here, their motivation is to get power that will make them feel more important (and be honest, who here does not like power? We just aren't willing to seriously harm for it).

Others, like the Joker, have a goal that can only be achieved through gaining power. These people want to change something BIG and see only one way to do it. Or, they may want to changed something small (say, saving a loved one or a small area of land or what-have-you) and do big things to change it.

Whatever you do, make sure that power is given as a motive, and not a reason.

Well, that's my $0.02.

PS: someone may argue that Hitler fits into the second category. I only find this true if you take his goal to be erradicating Jews and non-Aryans. Personally, I think that he found a strong hatred and worked upon it to gain power for himself (and probably ended up completely convincing himself).

That made me think of Lucifer, Satan, and Beelzebub from my story Princess Of The Damned and how each erects a castle, and devastates the Earth after crossing over to Mortal Realm. Of course in being the ultimate evils we all know they seek conquest and revenge for being kicked out of Heaven... So i'mma make sure to maintain that. And Hilter blamed the Jews for Germany's loss, and economic difficulties after WWI which he used to justify his actions, but he's a nice example and icon of vilainy of which if I'm not mistaken alot of villains are based off of. At least those like Freeza, or Baby from the Dragon Ball or Sinestro from The Green lantern.

[ideagirl]

I spent a couple of weeks developing the bad guy characters, because well, how's the main character supposed to kick butt if there aren't any bad guys? I've created a few that I intended to be the bad guys, and then over time, they become good. One of my bad guys from my fight scene was supposed to be the sarcastic type, the fire breathing chick who hypnotizes men with her breasts.(Not really.) But overtime, she becomes nice to my MC, she's a mom who's just forced to do bad things. She's supposed to capture my character, in order to save her 10 year old son from the abuse he got from science expiriments. I had another one, she's supposed to be like 14 years old, becoming an assassin pet of the really bad guy(and having a sexual relationship), but she isn't aware that she was a missing child, and she can't remember her parents....
I don't want them to be nice, just plain mean.

How to say this... it sounds like what's happening here is that you're turning out to be a better writer than you thought, but you don't realize it yet. Good writers do not populate their books with completely good heroines and completely bad bad guys; what you're doing here is discovering (I say "discovering" because you're writing things you didn't intend to write--you're discovering as you write) characters who are like real people, instead of being stock characters. That's a GOOD THING! Don't fight it!

The other thing that's likely going on here is that you're simply discovering that the book you're writing isn't the same as the book you set out intending to write. That's totally normal--"writing your way into the story," i.e. setting out to write X and then discovering that the story is actually Y, is completely normal. It's simply turning out that your story is Y, when you thought it would be X. That's fine--follow what's happening and see where it takes you. It sounds like your natural writing process is an intuitive one, rather than an analytical "start with an outline and execute that outline" one. You may have started with an outline, but your intuition is taking you elsewhere.

So I would say, just keep on writing and see where it goes. When you have a first draft done, then start fiddling with it... but don't fiddle with it at the outset; let the thing that's trying to be written come out.

[HeronW]

Think Hannibel Lector--erudite, a gentleman with Clarice, a cordon bleu chef with your liver and a nice Chianti.

He's a psychopath who copes rather well with his flaws, he believes he has the right to do what he does and he does it to specific people, for specific reasons--he's not a blanket murderer.

I've a 5,000 year old sorceress who is evil. At 15 she was to be sacrificed. She turned the tables on the priests who were doing it, & her family who set her up. She continues to 'right wrongs' most of which are not. For a stable boy thinking of killing her--she shrinks him to rat size and his terrier eats him. For an inhospitable town, she causes the rye to go bad--ergotamine poisoning for anyone who eats the bread that season.

You need to make the evil mean something, just as the good does.

[TPCSWR]

Not always. Consider revenge or recognition.

JJ

Good point, I didn't think of those, though I'd say recognition is usually gained through power.

@blue: It sound as though you're trying almost too hard to convince us this guy is evil. I'd say less what and more why. (Which you're obviously trying or you wouldn't have created this thread).

[Charlie Horse]

One of the best studies in recent history of purely evil villains is Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker in the latest Batman movie. This character is so over the top evil he makes Voldemort look like a playground bully.

Another of my favorites is Jimmy Cagney in White Heat.

All in all, the more insane your bad guy can be the better.

[BlueLucario]

I'm not trying to MAKE him evil. However there are qualities that came to me that allows me to learn a little more about him. I did find a motivation for him. Ego. He wants his followers to tell him he's beautiful. He has uch power, he lied to the government to give him their funding. Instead of them donating money for a school, he's using the money to create assassins.

[Rasun]

I'm not trying to MAKE him evil. However there are qualities that came to me that allows me to learn a little more about him. I did find a motivation for him. Ego. He wants his followers to tell him he's beautiful. He has uch power, he lied to the government to give him their funding. Instead of them donating money for a school, he's using the money to create assassins.

So he's actually more ambitious and conceited than evil... If I'm mistaken those are qualities that make a villain.(However rare they may be.) Those are also the qualities that turn a hero into a villain, or the qualities a villain has before becoming a hero.

[Mad Queen]

Motivation isn't everything either. Two people might want the same thing and use two completely different methods to get what they want. Your bad guy has to have a motivation and beliefs that compel him to act in a way that turns him into a villain. If he wants his followers to tell him he's beautiful, why didn't he become an actor? Or a fashion model?

[Rasun]

Motivation isn't everything either. Two people might want the same thing and use two completely different methods to get what they want. Your bad guy has to have a motivation and beliefs that compel him to act in a way that turns him into a villain. If he wants his followers to tell him he's beautiful, why didn't he become an actor? Or a fashion model?

*Listening to Der Mussolini covered by KMFDM*

Maybe he was a model or an actor but then sought a God-like cult following to where he was worshipped for his beauty, or at least remembered for it to where when he dies, people will make paintings, or monuments of him in their perception of how beautiful he looked, and each portrayal would look more grand than the last. Which I'm sorry for mentioning how it would be similar to Suzuki from Yu Yu Hakusho because he had that ambition of creating such an empire.