Dad and I

[maxmordon]

I love my father, I deeply do and even he wasn't there most of my life he is doing a great effort now to be a constant in my life. But there is something we always clash. Religion.

He has his set of beliefs which I respect and admire and I have my set of beliefs but what is so frustrating to me is that he continue to smirk my beliefs with snarky comments, some of them which I find highly offensive and I am not someone easy to offend; besides I think respect and acceptance is the base of coexistence in harmony...

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or on Christian, the mod can change it if it consider it necessary.

[fullbookjacket]

What are the beliefs in question?

[maxmordon]

Silly me, I forgot to mention it. I am a Catholic and he is an Atheist.

[emandem]

I wouldn't discuss religion with him if I were you...It's not worth sacrificing your relationship. If he pushes the conversation, smile and change the subject. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to argue over religion. Refuse to be around him during the times he is insulting your beliefs and he'll get the message!

He'll prob eventually admire your self-control and maturity when you refuse to descend to an argumentative level. Give him time.

[JoNightshade]

Max, sounds like we're in a similar situation. Or at least, I used to be in your situation. I'm a Christian and my dad is... well, we'll call him atheist or agnostic... mostly I guess he was just antagonistic. :) Growing up we had a lot of conflicts in my house over religion, and it caused a lot of pain for both of us. Now that I'm out of the house and have matured beyond my teenage years, I respect and value my father just like you do.

I'm not sure what advice to give you other than to, first of all, not try to argue anything with him. Trying to argue your side is just going to keep the conflict going. Be secure enough in your beliefs to back off, if that's an issue.

Second, try to express to him how much it hurts you that he sneers at your beliefs. Say that you don't expect him to agree with you, but you believe this deeply and that's not going to change. Ask him to accept that, and in return you'll accept him.

And after that, just love him. I think you'll find that in time, the issue will cool off enough that you'll be able to discuss it calmly, without getting all irritated with one another. I'm starting to get to that point with my dad right now. And that's really where dialogue takes place.

Afterthought: If your dad is really antagonistic and disparaging, consider that he might be coming from some sort of really bad experience with organized religion. (I don't know what happened to my dad, but I know he was abused as a child and I know simply walking into a church makes him break into a cold sweat.) The reaction might be not so much towards you as it is towards what he perceives religion to be. And because he loves you, he wants to protect you from that.

[fullbookjacket]

Father/son relationships are seldom easy. Fathers put pressure on sons to be just like them, and sons resist.

My old man was (is) a domineering sort. I'm the atheist, however, and he's the Christian. I basically ignore any religious discussions with him...it's the only way to avoid conflict.

[Ruv Draba]

Alas, but we can't choose our family. We want them to nourish us, approve of us, celebrate us, encourage us -- because often they know us best. They can't always do that; and sometimes they can but won't.

If it's any consolation, I think that your situation must be fairly unsual, Max. While getting smirks is rather annoying, at least (I hope) it doesn't break your heart.

We get a lot of stories here of atheists in religious families (the more likely occurrence perhaps because of the relative proportions of atheists and theists) -- suffering violence and coercion, families staging 'interventions', being cut out of wills or excommunication from families and communities. The same must also happen to theists from time to time, who change denominations or faiths.

I certainly hope that your father doesn't do anything like that, but meanwhile when you're getting irritated, please spare a thought for those who do suffer such things.

And if it's any consolation, it may help to consider that peoples' minds may form differently. The emphases that we give emotional and physical evidence in decision-making may be architecturally different in different people. It may be that your father is literally incapable of seeing what you get from your faith; just as perhaps it may be hard for you to see what he objects to in it.

I also suspect that when many people argue over religion, it's not just religion they're arguing over. It might be respect, affection, independence, belonging... and other things that are human concerns rather than simply ideological concerns. Sometimes if you deal with those differences, ideological differences become unimportant.

I've long since learned not to discuss politics with my father -- or even listen to him. He's incapable of looking at more than one side of these things, and he loves indulging in a good rant. Even when I agree with him, it's very unpleasant to listen to; so if he starts that conversation I excuse myself from it and we get on fine.

[snook]

Agree to disagree, if he has any logical inclinations he will agree to it, if he respects you at all. Whatever you do, DO NOT stop any discussions among yourselves, it will lead to a stop of all discussions. Be open minded and peer through his eyes and he will probably do the same.

[maxmordon]

I wouldn't discuss religion with him if I were you...It's not worth sacrificing your relationship. If he pushes the conversation, smile and change the subject. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to argue over religion. Refuse to be around him during the times he is insulting your beliefs and he'll get the message!

He'll prob eventually admire your self-control and maturity when you refuse to descend to an argumentative level. Give him time.

I don't discuss religion about him, but he likes to push the envelope at times. He adores to discuss his ideas with others, specially on controversial topics and in my expirience he has a bit of an insight of "everyone is a good and balanced person as long they agree with me" mentality. Not just in religion but pretty much in everything.

With me, for example, he told me that "I could do whatever I want. But if he told me something it was an order I had to obey" and bits like that...

[maxmordon]

Max, sounds like we're in a similar situation. Or at least, I used to be in your situation. I'm a Christian and my dad is... well, we'll call him atheist or agnostic... mostly I guess he was just antagonistic. :) Growing up we had a lot of conflicts in my house over religion, and it caused a lot of pain for both of us. Now that I'm out of the house and have matured beyond my teenage years, I respect and value my father just like you do.

I'm not sure what advice to give you other than to, first of all, not try to argue anything with him. Trying to argue your side is just going to keep the conflict going. Be secure enough in your beliefs to back off, if that's an issue.

Second, try to express to him how much it hurts you that he sneers at your beliefs. Say that you don't expect him to agree with you, but you believe this deeply and that's not going to change. Ask him to accept that, and in return you'll accept him.

And after that, just love him. I think you'll find that in time, the issue will cool off enough that you'll be able to discuss it calmly, without getting all irritated with one another. I'm starting to get to that point with my dad right now. And that's really where dialogue takes place.

Afterthought: If your dad is really antagonistic and disparaging, consider that he might be coming from some sort of really bad experience with organized religion. (I don't know what happened to my dad, but I know he was abused as a child and I know simply walking into a church makes him break into a cold sweat.) The reaction might be not so much towards you as it is towards what he perceives religion to be. And because he loves you, he wants to protect you from that.

I think it has to do with his mother; my grandfather is an atheist or agnostic and so are his siblings (both grandfather and my father) but my grandmother (his mother) who is Catholic was pretty much the authority around the house of my rebellious father (and his brothers) who did things ranging from tying himself to a buch of skateboards to roll downhill to destill moonshine in the backyard and running from home and being arrested several times, all before he was 20...

So yeah, I think is the Christianity=Authority-type of mind...

I think he's also an anarchist but I am sure, I know he's quite left-wing... (as the rest of my father's family)

[maxmordon]

Alas, but we can't choose our family. We want them to nourish us, approve of us, celebrate us, encourage us -- because often they know us best. They can't always do that; and sometimes they can but won't.

If it's any consolation, I think that your situation must be fairly unsual, Max. While getting smirks is rather annoying, at least (I hope) it doesn't break your heart.

We get a lot of stories here of atheists in religious families (the more likely occurrence perhaps because of the relative proportions of atheists and theists) -- suffering violence and coercion, families staging 'interventions', being cut out of wills or excommunication from families and communities. The same must also happen to theists from time to time, who change denominations or faiths.

I certainly hope that your father doesn't do anything like that, but meanwhile when you're getting irritated, please spare a thought for those who do suffer such things.

And if it's any consolation, it may help to consider that peoples' minds may form differently. The emphases that we give emotional and physical evidence in decision-making may be architecturally different in different people. It may be that your father is literally incapable of seeing what you get from your faith; just as perhaps it may be hard for you to see what he objects to in it.

I also suspect that when many people argue over religion, it's not just religion they're arguing over. It might be respect, affection, independence, belonging... and other things that are human concerns rather than simply ideological concerns. Sometimes if you deal with those differences, ideological differences become unimportant.

I've long since learned not to discuss politics with my father -- or even listen to him. He's incapable of looking at more than one side of these things, and he loves indulging in a good rant. Even when I agree with him, it's very unpleasant to listen to; so if he starts that conversation I excuse myself from it and we get on fine.


Thank you, Dub. I have always enjoyed your posts.

[maxmordon]

Father/son relationships are seldom easy. Fathers put pressure on sons to be just like them, and sons resist.

That's pretty much what I am feeling. Not only in this, but in general. See, I am going to college soon and everytime I go to visit him (he lives in a larger city) I feel like he's trying to making me some substitute of him to take his place while he's gone. Studying in his same university (a very good one, btw), giving me his apartment, telling me his plans for my future (which mirrors his life) pretty much showing me his path in life... to follow it...

[StephanieFox]

You could try acting interested in the subject matter (atheism) as an intellectual persuit. You can answer his questions (or statements – treat them all like questions) also in an intellectual way. It's comparative religion. You are guys, you probably don't want to talk feelings. I think he needs you to look up to him. Do that. You don't have to agree. Tell him you admire his thought process in coming to his conclusions. This is probably not about religion at all. It's about him wanting your respect. Tell him you are proud to be his son.

I could be wrong. I was never a son and I realize that the father/son connection is tricky.

[maxmordon]

You could try acting interested in the subject matter (atheism) as an intellectual persuit. You can answer his questions (or statements – treat them all like questions) also in an intellectual way. It's comparative religion. You are guys, you probably don't want to talk feelings. I think he needs you to look up to him. Do that. You don't have to agree. Tell him you admire his thought process in coming to his conclusions. This is probably not about religion at all. It's about him wanting your respect. Tell him you are proud to be his son.

I could be wrong. I was never a son and I realize that the father/son connection is tricky.

I see your point, Steph. Monday I am leaving to spend two weeks with my father's side family and him as well. So perhaps we could settle some things.

[zornhau]

(I quite like threads like this because they are good source material for writing atheists writing relgious characters.)

Speaking as an atheist parent: He may well be afraid that religion has/will take you away from him, or that it will hamstring you in some practical and emotional ways and that he has failed you.

Do you both still see the world and morality the same way? If so, you might want to explore that.

It's also possible that he enjoys a good debate/verbal scrap and doesn't realise how much it pushes you apart. If so, you should just tell him to, "Shut the #### up about religion and talk about something else." Does he have any religious friends who are really just sparring partners?

Finally... well, this is the Atheist forum and I'm an atheist. From where I'm standing, religion is mostly - to put it nicely - a parasitic meme. Not all activities to do with religion are pointless, but ultimately, it's a waste of brain space. I myself would feel depressed and a failure if my children embraced any sort of religion. However, I''d fight tooth and nail to maintain the relationship.

[donroc]

Max, you can always remind him of Pascal's Wager, if he has a sense of humor.

[KTC]

Silly me, I forgot to mention it. I am a Catholic and he is an Atheist.

If you get along in every other area of your lives, do what they say not to do: Don't discuss religion. Just come to an agreement that you will not discuss it with each other...and ask him to respect your decision while you respect his.

[Flapdoodle]

That's pretty much what I am feeling. Not only in this, but in general. See, I am going to college soon and everytime I go to visit him (he lives in a larger city) I feel like he's trying to making me some substitute of him to take his place while he's gone. Studying in his same university (a very good one, btw), giving me his apartment, telling me his plans for my future (which mirrors his life) pretty much showing me his path in life... to follow it...

Is this a US cultural thing? I see US films/TV episodes where the plot revolves around a Father trying to get his son to go down the same career path as him, same university, etc. Does this really happen in a big way? I don't know anyone over here who had this happen to them! Most parents in the UK try to persuade their kids to not do what they did! :)

[Sarpedon]

May I ask where this difference in opinion arose? How did you come to be a Catholic?

I became an atheist, ironically enough, teaching sunday school. My father blamed my college education, even though the change predated the college, for the most part.

What is your mother?

(forgive me if I'm being too personal and too Freud like)

[maxmordon]

I was mostly raised by my mother's family, Sarpedon, which is quite traditional though mostly nominal Catholics while my father's family is a mix of Atheists, Deists, Agnostics and my grandma who is also Catholic.

[maxmordon]

If you get along in every other area of your lives, do what they say not to do: Don't discuss religion. Just come to an agreement that you will not discuss it with each other...and ask him to respect your decision while you respect his.

To me, this seems the most viable way so far.

[maxmordon]

(I quite like threads like this because they are good source material for writing atheists writing relgious characters.)

Speaking as an atheist parent: He may well be afraid that religion has/will take you away from him, or that it will hamstring you in some practical and emotional ways and that he has failed you.

Do you both still see the world and morality the same way? If so, you might want to explore that.

It's also possible that he enjoys a good debate/verbal scrap and doesn't realise how much it pushes you apart. If so, you should just tell him to, "Shut the #### up about religion and talk about something else." Does he have any religious friends who are really just sparring partners?

Finally... well, this is the Atheist forum and I'm an atheist. From where I'm standing, religion is mostly - to put it nicely - a parasitic meme. Not all activities to do with religion are pointless, but ultimately, it's a waste of brain space. I myself would feel depressed and a failure if my children embraced any sort of religion. However, I''d fight tooth and nail to maintain the relationship.

See? That's why I am affraid. I am affraid he's ashamed of me because of my beliefs.

I am not sure about his friends, though. Most of them seem to be Bohemian intelectuals who shere most of his point of view.

[StephanieFox]

Is this a US cultural thing? I see US films/TV episodes where the plot revolves around a Father trying to get his son to go down the same career path as him, same university, etc. Does this really happen in a big way? I don't know anyone over here who had this happen to them! Most parents in the UK try to persuade their kids to not do what they did! :)

It's not really a cultural thing in real life so much as a plot point. It doen'st really happen in a big way, although I know a couple of guys (older guys now, with their own children) who went down the same educational or career path as their dads. But, sometimes, when it happens, the son is not of the same tempermant or intelligence as the father, which is why we have George W. Bush.

If you wrote that story for a movie script, no one would believe it.

[zornhau]

See? That's why I am affraid. I am affraid he's ashamed of me because of my beliefs.

I am not sure about his friends, though. Most of them seem to be Bohemian intellectuals who share most of his point of view.

To amplify on an earlier point, grom an atheist POV, many of the moral and political things that accompany some brands of Christianity are more contemptible than the actual believing in God thing.

Examples might be: blinkered home-schooling, abstinence "education", evolution denial, racism, anti-abortion, "traditional" marriage, loudly shunning any film or story that might in some odd way challenge your belief (e.g. HP), mechanistic view of the power of prayer, gay bashing, and... well, you get the idea. Even to many Christians, some Christians are cringe-worthy.

If you can reassure him on any of the above, he might find he has very little to be ashamed of.

That said, parents don't live forever. I think you owe it to yourself and yoru father to test your faith now.

Reading contrary arguments, especially Betrand Russell and Dawkins, and look into your own heart - are you 100% sure that this is not a phase you're going through?

You're going to feel very stupid and foolish if, long after your dad is gone, you realise you were just kicking out against the parental intellectual prison and that you've squandered your time together.

[smoothseas]

Hey, Max ...

Are you back from spending Christmas con tu aubilita yet? Did you have fun?



~ ~ ~ Feliez ano nuevo ~ ~ ~

[maxmordon]

I am still on holidays, Smoothseas and can-t do much since I am in a really, really crappy cybercafe right now.

Zornhau, I feel a bit offended on you commenting is just a phase... what would you say if I say you-re just having a phase?

I-ve read some of Dawkins and to be honest, I hope I am not offending anyone here, I find him quite haughty... I mean, even some Atheists people I know can-t stand him... though I-ve found Russell quite enjoyable, I don-t agree with him but I can see his point.

I guess we can live well avoiding conflict... I mean, his mother is Catholic and his father is Atheist and they-ve lived together over 45 of marriage... if that doesn-t mean two people with opposite views and live and love each other I don-t know what...

PS: Smoothseas; do you want an English=Spanish dictionary as a gift+ :D

[zornhau]

I am still on holidays, Smoothseas and can-t do much since I am in a really, really crappy cybercafe right now.

Zornhau, I feel a bit offended on you commenting is just a phase... what would you say if I say you-re just having a phase?

I-ve read some of Dawkins and to be honest, I hope I am not offending anyone here, I find him quite haughty... I mean, even some Atheists people I know can-t stand him... though I-ve found Russell quite enjoyable, I don-t agree with him but I can see his point.



No offense indended - I couldn't think of a more tactful way of putting it. I just meant that you should be sure.

Re Dawkins; well, if he's haughty, imagine how some of us feel about preachers who claim to have the answer, often one that sees us in Hell?

[maxmordon]

No offense indended - I couldn't think of a more tactful way of putting it. I just meant that you should be sure.

Re Dawkins; well, if he's haughty, imagine how some of us feel about preachers who claim to have the answer, often one that sees us in Hell?

There are fanatics on everything... as well as intelligent well-minded people, but the one who gets the show are the ones who scream louder...

The word we're seeking is Tolerance, but seems that this word has been used so much that know is almost meaningless... as JFK said, don't look at me as a Catholic president but a president who happens to be Catholic...

[zornhau]

There are fanatics on everything... as well as intelligent well-minded people, but the one who gets the show are the ones who scream louder...

The word we're seeking is Tolerance, but seems that this word has been used so much that know is almost meaningless... as JFK said, don't look at me as a Catholic president but a president who happens to be Catholic...

But religion is political. For example, the RC stance on abortion and gay rights is a tad different from mine. How do I know that a religious politician isn't scheming for some "higher" good?

[Ruv Draba]

A handful of faiths deliberately separate themselves from politics; many more find reason to embrace politics. Power lets people direct benefit to folk more like themselves, so it's understandable even if it's not always fair, humane or just. Although atheism is not a faith, I would include atheists like Dawkins in this comment. He arrogantly presumes that what is good for him will necessarily enrich everyone else, and he's yet to prove that this is true. While I don't subscribe to religion, I can certainly conceive a world where religious and irreligious people co-exist fairly and respectfully -- as long as none of them gets too arrogant.

I personally think that human minds have different architectures. My mind happens to work very comfortably with lots of facts and ambiguity but no religion. For some people though, that's not possible. I know people who can't live satisfying, productive lives unless there's some sort of supernatural to connect the things they can't connect themselves. I know others who need to believe in a final moral authority, or they can't feel safe in an unsafe world.

Mental architectures change slowly. People who are nourished by religion generally find it hard to be nourished without it -- though the nature of their faith may change over time. People who are allergic to religion generally find it hard to be nourished by religious faith and many of us find it an irritant. Dawkins, the Pope and all the people who knock on my door from time to time are naive and ignorant to believe that a single solution will satisfy humanity. None can substantiate such a claim, and few evangelists of any stripe confront the arrogance and self-interest of their own position.

In failing to understand what you need, max, or to recognise why you need it, your father is failing to love you. It's an arrogance often born of ignorance. Please try to forgive him. Perhaps he'll learn with time.

[Dommo]

My whole problem with atheism lies on the fact that by denying the existence of the supernatural(even though it's extremely unlikely to actually exist), they're taking a leap of faith.

I'm an agnostic, because I see that logical inconsistency. Because the whole god thing isn't exactly falsifiable, you can't really confirm nor deny any religions. Thus I choose the "faithless" path, because I see the pointlessness in actually trying to answer questions that are both ambiguous, and that can't be proven. I find people on both ends(atheists and theists) irritating, because even though they argue about their respective theological perspectives, they fail to grasp the fact that both aren't really based on any actual "truth" but faith.

The way I see it, is that you've got two types of truth out there. Mathematical/Logical truth, which is largely provable(man made logical constructs), and you've empirical truth(which is truth that is determined through observation and repeated events). The rest is mostly faith, and I just wish people could understand that distinction before getting into these theological brawls. Faith is faith, the exact tenets of which really don't make a difference, since in my view they've got the same mindset just differing opinions.

[Ruv Draba]

My whole problem with atheism lies on the fact that by denying the existence of the supernatural(even though it's extremely unlikely to actually exist), they're taking a leap of faith.Atheism has many lines of thought, and only some are faith-based. There are several non faith-based forms of atheism, among which is mine: if you can't define your terms and demonstrate their existence then the term is meaningless to me. I'm an atheist simply because I don't believe that a statement like 'A god exists' has a truth-value.

Faith is faith, the exact tenets of which really don't make a difference, since in my view they've got the same mindset just differing opinions.If you ever accept currency as payment then you're exercising faith. If you ever let a stranger operate on you, or fly in an aircraft that you didn't test yourself then you're exercising faith. Faith is essential. What I think you're really talking about is superstition -- belief in things that you can't demonstrate materially.

[Dommo]

I agree with you Ruv in your above post because I was using faith more as a it would be used in a religious context as opposed to it's other dictionary definition which is more like "trust". Yeah so I guess superstition would probably be more accurate term to use.

Looking at your post Ruv, you sound a lot more like an agnostic atheist(one who believes it's highly unlikely god/gods exist) to me, because you're like me in the sense that if you can't define a truth condition that can be validated in some way, you can't buy into it. I think you see that hard atheism(absolute belief that gods etc. don't exist) and theism both have the same logical hole in them(no way to prove the validity of either view). I think that's why we find these topics so interesting, because both of us can sort of dance around between sides investigating everything because we don't really have a horse in the race so to speak(in fact we're not even sure there are any horses).

I think this could make an interesting topic. Hopefully I didn't derail this thread :P.

[HeronW]

Ask him to have the respect to allow you to live your life, as you have respect for his choices. You are not there to mirror his triumphs or failures, to be his mini-me, his clone, his second chance. This is true for the differences in religion, in what you choose to study, in how you move through your life.