How much is the Industry Standard for a concept idea

[JJboy]

Hello,

I've had an idea for a film which seemed pretty original. I've written it in a few pages, in quite a raw synopsis form.

The production firm was interested and even seemed rather enthusiastic about the idea. They said the want to move on with it, hire professional writers to write a more developed synopsis, do some graphic work and than take it and present it in festivals, looking for investors.

However, they said they can't pay me at the moment. They've offered to pay me according to industry standards if and when the idea gets produced, which they said would probably take a few years.

They said that the industry standards is not above 1% (of the production budget, and from the profits), but from what I've checked things are pretty different.

For this reason, before I give them my answer I ask here: How much is the industry standard for a concept idea for a movie? Is 1% a rip off? How much is the normal rate?

Thank you,

Ido

[Ken]

I'm guessing, but I'd say you should probably contact the screenwriters guild. They could probably tell you, precisely.

[aka eraser]

Ido, I'm going to punt this over to the good people at our Scriptwriting board. You're more likely to get information there.

[icerose]

This is the link you need. http://wga.org/content/default.aspx?id=1027 This only is cemented for those who actually belong to the WGA. Also remember you have only given them the idea, not the script. If you're looking at compensation for the script it's going to be vastly different. Frankly I'm surprised anyone said they'd buy just an idea for a movie.

Hope it helps.

ETA: I browsed through the schedule of minimums http://wga.org/uploadedFiles/writers_resources/contracts/min2008.pdf And I couldn't find anything about just the idea. So I have no idea. It gives a good solid look at the entire script compensation and puts it in perspective if you're expecting a huge sum. Simply put, don't.

[kullervo]

Want to know about the business? Go here: http://www.kullervo.com

Is this a real deal? No.

Are they telling the truth? No.

Will you ever get paid? No.

[donroc]

Want to know about the business? Go here: http://www.kullervo.com

Is this a real deal? No.

Are they telling the truth? No.

Will you ever get paid? No.

And kullervo is being optimistic. :e2violin:

[clockwork]

They can afford to hire professional writers and artists to develop a full pitch but they can't pay you, the guy whose idea it is, nothing at all? I would urge you to consult the services of an agent or entertainment lawyer or at the very least, tell these people that's what you're planning to do before you agree to anything and see what they say. Remember, it's your idea, your hard work. If they're interested in developing it then that means it's worth something to them. It should therefore be something they're willing to pay for.

Optioning all kinds of material from screenplays to books to Time magazine articles to songs and poems is standard practice these days. But the owner of the material is always compensated and so should you be.

[whistlelock]

the best way I heard it explained was this: "Anyone can have a good idea. But not anyone can write a script. That's why ideas are free and scripts cost money."

[JJboy]

Most answers seem pretty pessimistic.
Kullvero writes: Is this a real deal? No.Are they telling the truth? No. Will you ever get paid? No.
donroc writes
And kullervo is being optimistic.

So what should I do in your opinion?

[Noah Body]

Write the script on spec.

Move to Los Angeles.

Develop a network of contacts.

Distill the script so it can be pitched easily, in 25 words or less.

Write 7-10 other specs, so you have something else in your arsenal to pitch when your first one falls on its face.

People like screenwriters who are young, exciting, and good at parties--and that's the truth.

[donroc]

And practice practice practice your pitch with the image of a bored, hostile, or impatient listener in front of you who has power to make your career or toss you out.

If you are too specific, you might be interrupted with a "Naw, that ain't gonna work."

If you are too general, you may be asked, "How you gonna play it?"

[nmstevens]

Hello,

I've had an idea for a film which seemed pretty original. I've written it in a few pages, in quite a raw synopsis form.

The production firm was interested and even seemed rather enthusiastic about the idea. They said the want to move on with it, hire professional writers to write a more developed synopsis, do some graphic work and than take it and present it in festivals, looking for investors.

However, they said they can't pay me at the moment. They've offered to pay me according to industry standards if and when the idea gets produced, which they said would probably take a few years.

They said that the industry standards is not above 1% (of the production budget, and from the profits), but from what I've checked things are pretty different.

For this reason, before I give them my answer I ask here: How much is the industry standard for a concept idea for a movie? Is 1% a rip off? How much is the normal rate?

Thank you,

Ido

Here's the deal.

Legally, "ideas" have no value at all. That is, I have an idea about a gorilla who develops human intelligence and becomes President. How much is that worth?

Nothing. Not as a measure of whether it is a good idea or a bad idea -- it isn't worth anything because "ideas" are not copyrightable.

In order for an idea to be copyrightable, it has to be expressed in what is known as a "fixed form" -- you have to write it down, and not merely write it down as I have above, but in sufficient detail so that it possesses some aspect of having, in effect, a real form, as opposed to a sort of vague -- well, just a kind of an idea, a notion of something that lacks a real form, a true expression.

Now, whether the few pages that you have written rise to the level of a fixed form is an open question. Maybe it does. But if it does, what we'd be dealing with would hardly even be considered a treatment in screenwriting terms -- which generally lays out every key sequence of a movie, if not every scene, in pretty fair detail. They run anything from six pages to twenty-five or thirty pages.

If you read a treatment you're going to have a pretty fair sense of how the movie is going to lay out.

A treatment would be copyrightable -- it would be an expression of an idea in a fixed form.

But a treatment, even under guild rules, doesn't get you very much in terms of money. And if you try to find how much "ideas" sell for, you're out of luck, because there's no market for ideas -- because they can't be owned.

Professional writers can go in and pitch -- which is to sell a project on the strength of an idea. I've actually done this myself -- on a project that never ultimately got made, but they did pay me for the script.

But they are not, in that case, buying "the idea" -- they are buying my ability, as a known writer, to execute the script based on the idea that I've described to them. Could they take the idea that I've given them and go give it to some other writer? No. Not because the idea is copyrightable, but because of contract law. I've gone in to pitch the idea on a certain basis -- and the basis, in terms of standard business practice in our industry is that I'm willing to share my personal ideas conditionally. And the condition is, if they agree to develop those ideas, they have to hire me to write them.

That's one of the reasons that producers don't want to take pitches except from professional writers whose work they know and who they know are going to be able to deliver work of professional caliber.

What others have told you is basically true. The chance of any script getting produced is extremely small. The number of movies being made is going down. And if you getting paid (as you seem to suggest) is dependent on the movie getting made, then the chance of your ever getting paid is essentially non-existent.

If you do get paid, you likely will not get paid much. The key question of whether you will get story credit is another matter -- because if you get no on-screen credit you will not be entitled to any residual or royalty payments. Whatever they pay you -- that one percent of whatever they've calculated the one percent to be of -- that will be it.

This all seems like you're going to get a lesson in reality. All of us in the business have gotten these boot-in-the-ass lessons, so maybe this is going to be yours (presuming of course that you're interested in pursuing a career and you haven't simply stopped by to get a boot in the ass on your way to do other things).

One -- whatever you have written - those few pages. Register them with the Library of Congress. That is -- register the copyright.

Two -- there will be a contract (which I hope you haven't signed already). They will have a lawyer draw up that contract. The purpose of that contract, drawn up by their lawyer, will be to give them as much as possible and to give you as little as possible. That, after all, is what they pay their lawyer to do.

I'm presuming that you can't afford an entertainment attorney. They're pretty pricey. But most states have what is known as a Volunteer Counsel for the Arts, where lawyers provide free or inexpensive legal services to members of the arts community. You should check in your state to see if there is such a service. If so, call them up and see if you can get representation through them to go over that contract and properly represent your interests.

Three -- in the best of all possible worlds, the chances of your seeing any money -- ever -- from a deal like this, are slim. Your leverage is non-existent and it is leverage that you need to pry money out of the hands of those that have it.

The alternatives -- writing this idea into a screenplay and trying to sell it, doesn't necessarily offer a much brighter alternative -- since it would require you to master the craft of screenwriting and would then bring you into competition with every other screenwriter, both aspiring and professional. That's a long road. I don't discourage you from pursuing that if that's what you want.

But you should do it because you want to do it, not as a means of facilitating a sale.

NMS

[JJboy]

Hey nmstevens,

Thank you for taking the time to write this long reply.
Well, basically I am not a professional writer, and don't really plan on being one in the near future, so I don't think I'll try to develop the story into a full script. I probably won't be moving to Hollywood too, since I'm not even American.
I haven't signed anything yet, so that's good. I will be trying to get the most, taking into regard all that's been said here.

Since ideas are not copyrightable, since I haven't really given everything to developing this idea but virtually built it in two afternoons, and since I am not willing to go all the way to develop this idea, then I guess I don't have much of a negotiation power, and the percentage to which I will be entitled won't be very high. I will try to see what I can do there, though.

One good news though. They did offer me a credit for "original concept" or something like that.

I thank everybody and will be happy to get more comments. Especially on which kind of deal I should strive too.

Ido

[mario_c]

Good thread. Here's something that sums up how to CYA with a treatment (http://www.webfilmschool.com/video/WFS35.htm) pretty nicely. Just lower your speakers for the intro, he's not the best public speaker but his knowledge base is spot on.
Remember, NOBODY OWNS A IDEA. And don't forget to go through the prior videos for more on writing the treatment.
And if not LA, how about NYC or London?

[Mac H.]

Everyone has given great advice here.

But I can't let one minor incorrect detail slide without commenting on it - the statement that 'nobody owns an idea' isn't quite right.

Sure, you can't copyright an idea, but that just means that the idea isn't covered by copyright law. It is still covered as 'property' under other laws. One often used in other situations is 'breach of confidence'.

As a quick and dirty summary, if you have an idea (or information) and tell me the idea or information in confidence then the idea/information is still your property : I can't sell your idea to someone else. I can't give it away. If I did, you could sue me for any losses you made.

Your ideas *CAN* be owned by you. If someone else independently comes up with your idea, then they own their version of it.

For example, the law in California covers 'idea theft' in these circumstances:

1. A confidential presentation ..
2. .. of a novel and specific idea ..
3. .. and a plan of mutual profit and credit ...
4. ... that results in a cinematic work

There are other methods, involving breach of implied contract and unjust enrichment.

I've never figured out the logic of most laws, but, as far as this company is concerned, you probably do own this idea that you told them.

It doesn't stop other companies doing the same idea, but ideas CAN be intellectual property.

Mac
(Yeah, I known I'm over simplifying things - and this clearly isn't legal advice)

[nmstevens]

Everyone has given great advice here.

But I can't let one minor incorrect detail slide without commenting on it - the statement that 'nobody owns an idea' isn't quite right.

Sure, you can't copyright an idea, but that just means that the idea isn't covered by copyright law. It is still covered as 'property' under other laws. One often used in other situations is 'breach of confidence'.

As a quick and dirty summary, if you have an idea (or information) and tell me the idea or information in confidence then the idea/information is still your property : I can't sell your idea to someone else. I can't give it away. If I did, you could sue me for any losses you made.

Your ideas *CAN* be owned by you. If someone else independently comes up with your idea, then they own their version of it.

For example, the law in California covers 'idea theft' in these circumstances:

1. A confidential presentation ..
2. .. of a novel and specific idea ..
3. .. and a plan of mutual profit and credit ...
4. ... that results in a cinematic work

There are other methods, involving breach of implied contract and unjust enrichment.

I've never figured out the logic of most laws, but, as far as this company is concerned, you probably do own this idea that you told them.

It doesn't stop other companies doing the same idea, but ideas CAN be intellectual property.

Mac
(Yeah, I known I'm over simplifying things - and this clearly isn't legal advice)


This was the point that I was trying to make -- and what with neither of us being lawyers I guess this is like both of us feeling an elephant and trying to figure out its shape.

My sense of this is that a company's inablity to use your concept or idea doesn't confer ownership of that idea on you.

Let's say that you and I have an agreement -- we're both going to the ball next month and I have an idea for a bright red dress and I know that you're found out and you've also decided to to wear a bright red dress to make me look like an idiot -- so I call you up and say -- I want to wear a bright red dress -- I'll give you a hundred bucks to wear any other color dress. You say fine. No problem. I'll take the hundred bucks.

If you take the hundred bucks and show up in a bright red dress -- I get to sue you. Not because you've used my "idea" of wearing a red dress -- but because you've violated our agreement.

I can't "own" the idea of wearing a red dress. You can't "steal" the idea of wearing a red dress.

What you can do -- is violate our agreement. You can break the terms of our contract. And if I wrote into the contract -- if you violate the terms of this contract you agree to pay a penalty of a thousand dollars -- you have to pay me a thousand dollars.

And what a company can do is violate an agreement. And a standard business practice, which includes revealing or using the contents of a confidential presentation, would constitute such a violation.

But that doesn't mean that those contents suddenly become ownable creative property, if the laws regarding copyright have determined that they are not otherwise ownable.

They've violate *some* law -- but it's contract law -- not the law regarding the theft of creative property, which is copyright law.

But as to whether this particular company and this particular individual falls under that protection -- I couldn't begin to answer that question.

But I will tell you a story. A number of years ago, a screenwriter went to a studio and pitched a project. The name of the project was "Young Sherlock Holmes." The studio turned down the project. It then turned around, took the title, hired other writers and developed the project without the participation of the writer that originally pitched the project.

How is this possible? How could they get away with this? Well -- you see, Sherlock Holmes was under copyright. The original writer didn't own the copyright to Sherlock Holmes -- and so, legally, he didn't really have the right to pitch "Young Sherlock Holmes" -- he was, in effect, pitching a prequel to something he didn't own.

It would be like me going in and pitching "Sam Spade, Junior." I can't pitch that idea because I don't own the rights to Sam Spade.

But the studio, which liked the idea but not his take, could acquire the rights. And did -- and got somebody else to develop a take they liked.

And that's why people need to hire real entertainment attorneys and not get legal advice from screenwriters off of websites.

NMS

[Hillgate]

A director I'm working with has insisted that we use NDAs before we even tell people the title, let alone the concept, but also not to pitch anyone at all until we've not only finished the script but polished it a fair bit. I think we all know the 'ideas are ten a penny' thesis. A good script with an easy to grasp concept, great dialogue and a few interesting twists on the genre (if it's a genre piece) is NOT ten a penny. There's no point them nicking yours if it's that good when they can either buy it ready-made or fund/distribute the movie. So just make the script that good and you increase your chances of not being totally hoodwinked, although nothing's ever guaranteed when half the people you deal with seem to have criminal records...;)

[Noah Body]

And if not LA, how about NYC or London?

Those are viable markets, but NYC (at least) is more of the financial center for Hollywood. There are films and TV shows shot out here all the time (even right now, in this rainy weather), but the film industry here is more of a straight-laced version of what's in Los Angeles. It's still difficult, and if you don't come with a pedigree of some sort, it's a real, real tough go.

A guy I work with spent $40,000 making his own film. Finally has an answer print and everything. But no one wants to screen it for distribution, because no one knows who he is and everyone has a digital camera these days, so...lots of fish vying for position in a very small bucket.

Better to write a novel. Folks in the publishing industry doesn't want to meet you, they don't want to dine you, they don't want to be seen with you. Business is done at a distance (until you knock one out of the park, then they want to see you, at least every now and then). In the film world, being visible is perhaps one of the greatest assets one can have, even a lowly screenwriter. And beware of ageism...I can confirm that being in your 40s and hanging at the Viper Room in L.A. isn't going to generate lots of buzz. ;)

Maybe dpaterso can fill you in on London, as he tickles people over at the BBC regularly, then tells them he's not interested. Go figure, a screenwriter who actually turns down jobs!

[mario_c]

Noah, I live just outside of NYC so it was more directed to the OP poster who seems leary of moving to LA. But that's a good perspective on it.
Sorry about your friend's movie, I hope it does well on DVD.

[Gillhoughly]

1% (of the production budget, and from the profits)

RUN AWAY. Do what's been suggested above. This bunch doesn't know what they're doing.

I had a book optioned for one dollar because the producer was a friend of my co-writer who's in the industry. Nothing happened with it, BTW.

The problem was the boilerplate of the "contract" based payment to the writers on the film's profit. The person who went over the contract with me pointed out my payment wasn't based on gross (the film's budget--good) but net (the film's yet to be realized profit--bad).

Once accountants get done cooking the books even the most wildly popular film can look like a loser. Last I heard Forrest Gump was still in that club, showing no profit at all.

It's been suggested here that you write a novel, so do so if you want. Just keep in mind that only a tiny fraction of novels are ever turned into movies, and those are usually the top bestsellers.

Whatever you do, DON'T post it up for sale on Ebay.

Or Craigslist!

I'm not kidding--every so often some moron offers his or her book, script, idea, whatever up for film rights, usually next to a wildly astronomical sum based on who knows what. If they knew anything about the industry, they'd know that producers have better ways to pass their time than cruising Ebay for scripts!

There's also going to be a few who put up the offer of "Write my book for me and we'll split the advance. I'll pay your way to the New York literati debut parties and talk shows."

I would suggest, in all kindness, that they're off their meds.

Way, WAAAAY off! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Hillgate]

RUN AWAY. Do what's been suggested above. This bunch doesn't know what they're doing.

The problem was the boilerplate of the "contract" based payment to the writers on the film's profit. The person who went over the contract with me pointed out my payment wasn't based on gross (the film's budget--good) but net (the film's yet to be realized profit--bad).



Hi, I may have misunderstood your post, but 'Gross' is not the film's budget. The film's budget is the film's budget. Gross is how much is taken by the film before any deductions, although even with 'gross', unless you're Dan Brown, there will be deductions. Gross or net is all about back end, versus front end.

Front end = payment of a fixed sum or a % of the budget, probably 1-3% of the below-the-line. Your fee or % will come under 'Story/development/rights' in the budget, above-the-line along with the actors, director etc. Option payments would normally come under this heading too.

The less tried and tested you are as a writer, the smaller your front and back ends. WGA can advise OP.

[Gillhoughly]

Thanks--that's why I have an agent to figure this stuff out for me!

Do not--repeat--do NOT let me negotiate a contract of any kind!! :scared:

[aceinc1]

Those are viable markets, but NYC (at least) is more of the financial center for Hollywood. There are films and TV shows shot out here all the time (even right now, in this rainy weather), but the film industry here is more of a straight-laced version of what's in Los Angeles. It's still difficult, and if you don't come with a pedigree of some sort, it's a real, real tough go.

A guy I work with spent $40,000 making his own film. Finally has an answer print and everything. But no one wants to screen it for distribution, because no one knows who he is and everyone has a digital camera these days, so...lots of fish vying for position in a very small bucket.

Better to write a novel. Folks in the publishing industry doesn't want to meet you, they don't want to dine you, they don't want to be seen with you. Business is done at a distance (until you knock one out of the park, then they want to see you, at least every now and then). In the film world, being visible is perhaps one of the greatest assets one can have, even a lowly screenwriter. And beware of ageism...I can confirm that being in your 40s and hanging at the Viper Room in L.A. isn't going to generate lots of buzz. ;)

Maybe dpaterso can fill you in on London, as he tickles people over at the BBC regularly, then tells them he's not interested. Go figure, a screenwriter who actually turns down jobs!

go to cinema halls and book the hall for one show by paying $1500 for each screening and post posters around colleges/schools. when people see it they might go to watch it. he can recoup his investment in about 4-6 months.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

[nmstevens]

go to cinema halls and book the hall for one show by paying $1500 for each screening and post posters around colleges/schools. when people see it they might go to watch it. he can recoup his investment in about 4-6 months.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

There was a time and a place when this was a viable marketing approach. A number of movies were quite successful doing it this way (Billy Jack comes to mind).

But that was then and this is now -- and the overwhelming majority of theatres are, first, multiplexes, and second, owned and operated by major theatre chains that control what goes on their screens.

The number of theatres available for rental for this kind of scheme are very small -- and unless your goal is to make a very small movie for very little money, advertise it for very little money (almost impossible) -- and hope somehow to break even with an extremely limited run (also virtually impossible given that your handful of play dates will be competing against major Hollywood releases with known stars being advertised in a very big way).

Without exploitable elements and a decent marketing budget, without reviews, buzz, or stars, you could easily be four-walling to empty or virtually empty houses for weeks or months -- digging yourself deeper into a hole rather than climbing out.

Depending on the project, it may make sense to try to target a direct-to-video market directly and there are various ways to do that -- and simply burn and sell DVDs as the orders come in, or have them produced in relatively small batches to keep your overhead and marketing costs low.

People have managed to break even doing this or even made some money although I don't know that many people have gotten rich off of it.

NMS

[Noah Body]

go to cinema halls and book the hall for one show by paying $1500 for each screening and post posters around colleges/schools. when people see it they might go to watch it. he can recoup his investment in about 4-6 months.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

As already stated, that just won't fly. Even the Angelika in NYC, an independent art house (or at least as independent as they get these days) won't break a contract with a distrib to screen a film that won't bring in any money. And they sure as hell won't pay a rental fee. And will they want a gross deal, or a net deal?

And even if they wanted to screen it for a single show every night for a week, thereby committing to a contract, then they'll want a buy-back unless 100 or so seats get filled each night. And in a small 240 seat theater where people pay $12.00 a head to get in, my pal would go broke.

[Mac H.]

There used to be a few indi cinemas in our city that offered this kind of thing .. it was basically a guaranteed buy-back of seats like Noah said.

(They had a minimum number of ticket sales - either the audience bought them or you did)

I think only one cinema now offers this .. it is attached to a film school so is often used for those kind of 'indy' events. (My info is probably out-of-date now)

BTW, up thread we were talking about intellectual property .. there is a wonderful (and free) book on the subject: http://www.thepublicdomain.org/download/

To quote:

Some readers will find my use of the term "intellectual property" mistaken and offensive. They will argue, and I agree, that the use of the term "property" can cause people mistakenly to conflate these rights with those to physical property. (I outline that process and its negative consequences in the next chapter.) They will argue, and again I agree, that there are big differences between the three fields I have described. Should we not just list the specific rights about which we are speaking—copyright, patent, or trademark? Both of these concerns are real and well-founded, but I respectfully disagree with the conclusion that we should give up the term "intellectual property."
I haven't finished the book yet, but it 's one of the best I've seen on the subject.

Mac

[aceinc1]

go to cinema halls and book the hall for one show by paying $1500 for each screening and post posters around colleges/schools. when people see it they might go to watch it. he can recoup his investment in about 4-6 months.

regards,
Ace.Inc1


there is something called paid publicity. you can ask one of the fereelance critics to write a review and then publish it in newspapers by paying him some money. it works for both of them. that way he'll be known name soon and people will maybe make an attempt to watch the movie.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

[icerose]

there is something called paid publicity. you can ask one of the fereelance critics to write a review and then publish it in newspapers by paying him some money. it works for both of them. that way he'll be known name soon and people will maybe make an attempt to watch the movie.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

To me, it would seem the movie would have to be a pretty spectacular indie that generated a lot of buzz on it's own to really get your name out there. Say you successfully paid a review writer to write a review in your favor (there are so many things wrong with this, but we'll continue with the whatif) so you get enough people to fill a theatre interested in watching it. They pay the money, whether it be DVD or whatever, and watch it. It fails to meet their expectations. You're pretty much dead on your feet because your audience will remember and it'll spread a whole lot more than a bought and paid for review will. What an indie needs is word of mouth, something you can't buy, to spread like wildfire in their favor. Blair Witch Project got that, and at the film festivals. From the film festivals they got a big studio to pick it up, dump a couple mil in editing, and then distributed and it hit pretty big. It was unique with it's own story (which was false) that went behind it. The filmmakers took a big risk by lying about it, but I guess it worked out for them, not everyone is so lucky.

My point is a paid review isn't really going to get you anywhere and especially if the reviewer is out and out lying about their opinion for the money. They risk their own reputation and you'll have yours destroyed before it gets off the ground.

What any film maker needs to do if they want to get their name out there is make a film that really grabs interest and take it around to the film festivals where the people with the money and the weight happen to be. Or again if it is that great, they can approach companies, but unless it really stands out from the horde of other "Dudes with a camera" then they're not going to get anywhere.

[aceinc1]

by the time people have seen the flick after reading the review, our guy has already recouped his investment. so no matter what and the speed of the word of mouth, it is just gonna be too late. and yeah, even the best critics take money to give good reviews, tell that $40k to just down and dirty with promotion and he'll have the money in the bank. it is all fair in this business. I mean look at me, I'm trying to get away with the fact that English is a second language by using an American proof reader. telling our guy to not use paid promotion is like telling me to not use the proof reader, Stephen King has an editor before his work goes out, so in all fairness, just get it done, we want the money back, that's it.

and by paid review I don't mean out and out lying, everything has a positive aspect, if it has negative ones, just point out the positives and it is all gonna work fine.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

[icerose]

by the time people have seen the flick after reading the review, our guy has already recouped his investment. so no matter what and the speed of the word of mouth, it is just gonna be too late. and yeah, even the best critics take money to give good reviews, tell that $40k to just down and dirty with promotion and he'll have the money in the bank. it is all fair in this business. I mean look at me, I'm trying to get away with the fact that English is a second language by using an American proof reader. telling our guy to not use paid promotion is like telling me to not use the proof reader, Stephen King has an editor before his work goes out, so in all fairness, just get it done, we want the money back, that's it.

and by paid review I don't mean out and out lying, everything has a positive aspect, if it has negative ones, just point out the positives and it is all gonna work fine.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

Paid reviews having nothing to do with editing or proof reading. Those are to improve the work itself. A paid review is paying someone for their opinion of the work. It gives me an icky feeling all over. If you have no problem with it, fine. But it's bad news to me.

[aceinc1]

Paid reviews having nothing to do with editing or proof reading. Those are to improve the work itself. A paid review is paying someone for their opinion of the work. It gives me an icky feeling all over. If you have no problem with it, fine. But it's bad news to me.

Icerose,

look, paid review is all about pushing in that guy who has ended up as nothing but the fluffer.

now for example, I am a second language guy here, most of the time a butt of the all the jokes that I don't even understand, maybe even PMs float around about me, dunno for sure. but I still found a proofreader who was willing to work on my scripts. I was the fluffer who is getting that push that'll make his work look good and get a promotion by the way of sales of a screenplays with the help of the proofreaders's contribution.

why do I consider myself a fluffer? here is the reason, I have an MBA with my specialization as International Business and still I stink at sales, it became evident during my internship so I had to change my thesis to complete the internship. my Godfather/mentor/Principal was kind enough to allow me to change it. he told me because I scored well in theory he allowed me to change it.

there are definitions here:

sales: a product is ready and it needs to be sold in the market. (somewhat close to spec scripts)

marketing: preparing a product that is in demand in market. (close to assignments)

what I am trying to tell you is I have a sales approach during making the product (script), i.e. first let the product get made then we'll see how to market it. writing is damn hard so first let me just get that done. some times I have rough ideas for trailers floating in my mind for the final product i.e. the film of the script itself when I'm writing and the trailer idea needs to be omitted as it is not there in the script's finished draft. now that finished draft definitely needs a proofreader as English is a second language to me. I found it myself, when I proofread one of my screenplays 20 times and it still had spelling mistakes when I read it the 21st time. my proof reader is another person and immediately an objective eye is on my scripts. hope that now you get how this works in my favor.

as a producer once said," if you want money for your script, then there better be no spelling mistakes in it". now you know the importance of a proofreader here. this is not to massage your ego.

you're a proof reader yourself, you know how crazy writers are, there is a line between fiction and real life but writers to make it feel like real life the fiction world and play the hero's journey, I do that all the time. so there is a bit of abnormality in me that has creeped in and I am fine with it.

I just get my work done at the proof reader with the intention so that it can be sent to coverage where it found be found guilty of spelling mistakes and after her feedback has no plotholes in the story, and stands a chance of getting a "consider". these days I know one thing for sure (another bad news) if I'm gonna be directing it, I'll only keep the spine in the mind and work the shooting draft. and the shooting draft is not just mechanical as in trying to make changes to make your presence felt.

the law of directing says "you don't always shoot what you want but only what you can".

even with millions of dollars and special effects Hollywood does the same.

so you have to understand that the scripts that you proofread change tracks during the course of pre-production as the director or even the producer takes over the writer.

I don't feel that bad as a writer because one thing I know I had a spine that I wanted to deliver and the director knows it and works a story on that spine. (kinda appearing like a schizo, right? yeah, I have developed Bi-polar disorder other than Asperger's disorder that I had since childhood. I'm being treated with Allopthic method for Bi-polar and it has a long course of treatment, I sometimes make it worse by not taking the tablets as it leads to a pain in the back part of my head ,literally, then the dosage is increased, I told my psychiatrist to put me in a rehab and keep me there till I get a clearence from him no matter how long it takes but psychiatrist feels I have to cure it by living in the society as the Bi-polar disorder is a result of problems that I face while living in the society, my tablets are meant to keep my heart rate steady and my brain a bit numb as emotions affect these two organs severely). the actors who worked with me tell me I'm better to talk to when I'm doing directing and production. there is a glow on my face when I am doing directing and producing.

now coming back to your proofreading, don't say what's the point in getting proofread if it doesn't make it to the screen. this in my view is not logical thinking.

see novelists always complain there story was changed, Stephen King on many occasions didn't want give the rights of his novel to Hollywood because he felt they were making bad movies out of his work (Frank Darabont had to shoot and show a short film to King that was on the basis of a King's work to get the rights to "the Shawshank redemption".) same with film-making, the director if at all interested in the writer will only try to figure out the spine and go ahead with it. there is no such thing as vision in directing, just the three camera angles (the CU, MS and LS).

don't feel bad about the way things have gone between me and you over that $40K guy. I was just doing some producer talk. you must have some writing that never saw its destiny that you in mind for it. I have many so I'm out venturing to direct, produce stuff myself in an afforadable budget of course.

as a producer, you sometimes play it down and dirty. answer this, as producers in Hollywood why do you know a Merchant-Ivory and why do you know a Jerry Bruckheimer (on a personal note, I want to be in between the two). how many of J.Bruckheimer movies get A+ by critics and still stink when you go to see them in theaters. you getting me?

and lastly, once again I apologise for hurting your feelings, hope my this'll make you feel a bit better. if you still have anything that you don't agree with then we can discuss.

my due heartfelt apologies to you,
regards,
Ace.Inc1

[aceinc1]

--

[icerose]

I don't feel bad at all, I'm just saying I don't agree with the tactic of paying for a reviewer to give a positive review. Reviews should objective and honest so people know what they're getting into when they go to a theatre. If say someone I really respect wrote a glowing review about a truly awful movie and I later learned they had been paid to lie about their opinion, they will have lost every ounce of my respect.

This goes back to my unfortunate days when two of my books were printed under the Publish America company (scum company at it's worst). Other authors, desperate to get their books noticed started giving each other's books five stars and lying in the reviews to try and get attention directed to some truly awful books. So from personal experience this is not the way to go, they ended up helping destroy everyone's reputation who was unfortunate enough to sign up with them. I can't take those two books which rights are completely mine again and go anywhere with them. It doesn't matter if these books happened to be gold and would sell millions of copies (I'm not saying they would) no one will touch them. They're tainted. It's not just because of the company itself, but the author's actions that led to this black tar that hangs onto every former author of that company. And part of that is due to unethical dealings such as paying for opinions.

That's where I get my ickiness, I've seen what it can do and it feels inherently wrong to me. Maybe it works differently for other people, but I couldn't condone it either.

[IceCreamEmpress]

there is something called paid publicity. you can ask one of the fereelance critics to write a review and then publish it in newspapers by paying him some money.

Not in the US.

Full stop. People certainly come up with all kinds of shenanigans in the US, but this is one that just doesn't fly here.

For one reason, in the US media, the reviewers don't pick their assignments; the editors do.

[platinumscript]

NMStevens... so very clear, detailed, and absolutely on the money.

[Virector]

Here's the deal.

Legally, "ideas" have no value at all. That is, I have an idea about a gorilla who develops human intelligence and becomes President. How much is that worth?

Nothing. Not as a measure of whether it is a good idea or a bad idea -- it isn't worth anything because "ideas" are not copyrightable.

In order for an idea to be copyrightable, it has to be expressed in what is known as a "fixed form" -- you have to write it down, and not merely write it down as I have above, but in sufficient detail so that it possesses some aspect of having, in effect, a real form, as opposed to a sort of vague -- well, just a kind of an idea, a notion of something that lacks a real form, a true expression.

Now, whether the few pages that you have written rise to the level of a fixed form is an open question. Maybe it does. But if it does, what we'd be dealing with would hardly even be considered a treatment in screenwriting terms -- which generally lays out every key sequence of a movie, if not every scene, in pretty fair detail. They run anything from six pages to twenty-five or thirty pages.

If you read a treatment you're going to have a pretty fair sense of how the movie is going to lay out.

A treatment would be copyrightable -- it would be an expression of an idea in a fixed form.

But a treatment, even under guild rules, doesn't get you very much in terms of money. And if you try to find how much "ideas" sell for, you're out of luck, because there's no market for ideas -- because they can't be owned.

Professional writers can go in and pitch -- which is to sell a project on the strength of an idea. I've actually done this myself -- on a project that never ultimately got made, but they did pay me for the script.

But they are not, in that case, buying "the idea" -- they are buying my ability, as a known writer, to execute the script based on the idea that I've described to them. Could they take the idea that I've given them and go give it to some other writer? No. Not because the idea is copyrightable, but because of contract law. I've gone in to pitch the idea on a certain basis -- and the basis, in terms of standard business practice in our industry is that I'm willing to share my personal ideas conditionally. And the condition is, if they agree to develop those ideas, they have to hire me to write them.

That's one of the reasons that producers don't want to take pitches except from professional writers whose work they know and who they know are going to be able to deliver work of professional caliber.

What others have told you is basically true. The chance of any script getting produced is extremely small. The number of movies being made is going down. And if you getting paid (as you seem to suggest) is dependent on the movie getting made, then the chance of your ever getting paid is essentially non-existent.

If you do get paid, you likely will not get paid much. The key question of whether you will get story credit is another matter -- because if you get no on-screen credit you will not be entitled to any residual or royalty payments. Whatever they pay you -- that one percent of whatever they've calculated the one percent to be of -- that will be it.

This all seems like you're going to get a lesson in reality. All of us in the business have gotten these boot-in-the-ass lessons, so maybe this is going to be yours (presuming of course that you're interested in pursuing a career and you haven't simply stopped by to get a boot in the ass on your way to do other things).

One -- whatever you have written - those few pages. Register them with the Library of Congress. That is -- register the copyright.

Two -- there will be a contract (which I hope you haven't signed already). They will have a lawyer draw up that contract. The purpose of that contract, drawn up by their lawyer, will be to give them as much as possible and to give you as little as possible. That, after all, is what they pay their lawyer to do.

I'm presuming that you can't afford an entertainment attorney. They're pretty pricey. But most states have what is known as a Volunteer Counsel for the Arts, where lawyers provide free or inexpensive legal services to members of the arts community. You should check in your state to see if there is such a service. If so, call them up and see if you can get representation through them to go over that contract and properly represent your interests.

Three -- in the best of all possible worlds, the chances of your seeing any money -- ever -- from a deal like this, are slim. Your leverage is non-existent and it is leverage that you need to pry money out of the hands of those that have it.

The alternatives -- writing this idea into a screenplay and trying to sell it, doesn't necessarily offer a much brighter alternative -- since it would require you to master the craft of screenwriting and would then bring you into competition with every other screenwriter, both aspiring and professional. That's a long road. I don't discourage you from pursuing that if that's what you want.

But you should do it because you want to do it, not as a means of facilitating a sale.

NMS

OK. I am definitely not going to waste my time pursuing the movie thingy which was starting to brew up in my dead. This is really, really depressing to read... but hey, someone had to be real about it, lest some of us end up chasing dreams that will never come to fruition, so thanks for this, NMS. It really helps my, and I'm sure a lot of other people's understanding.