Location knowledge vs. experience

[billyf027]

My published short stories are often in locations that I have never travelled to or seen in person. I've done extensive research for them but a book would require so much more. I know a few have been done by people that have never been to their stories location.
Do you think it can be done properly without personal experience? I wanted to do that but fear making glaring errors from not actually seeing the location myself. Anyone accomplish this or did you travel to the location?

[Layla]

I can comfortably write about similar landscapes to the one I live in...so, most of Europe, America etc. I'm never going to be able to visit every country I want to set my novel in, so I just makes sure to do some solid research and talk to people from those areas.
I'd find it a little bit harder to set stories in, for example, Antarctica or a desert.

[qwerty]

Up to a point, the location is only part of the story. What counts is characters and how their stories evolve. As you are used to doing location research for shorts, I believe it's possible to do enough research to give a basic setting for a novel without concentrating too much on where it takes place.

If you choose a country you haven't actually visited, all sorts of info about climate etc can be found on the net. Also, when I needed guidence about something I wasn't sure about, I asked questions on AW. Our membership is widespread and we see folk from various parts of the world willing to answer questions.

Hope that helps.

[Emily Winslow]

You're asking about research v. never having been somewhere. There's another version: having visited somewhere, v. living there. A short visit can give a handle on physical descriptions and routes and such, but the subtle culture of a place is acquired through experience.

While certainly some writers are successful at doing enough creative research to accurately depict a place they haven't been to (or have visited but haven't lived in), I think you're right to be cautious. Hey, if the setting is important enough to your story that it *has* to be set there, rather than someplace you do know well, then that place must be a significant part of the story. If it's significant, then it needs solid grounding.

Again, I'm sure many writers are successful, through research, at depicting places outside their personal experience (and heck, all historical and fantasy writers *have* to be). But my personal taste is that place is best handled in person.

(You can see my location at left. There are some books set here that make me cringe. They just get it WRONG. So my answer is coming from a personal frustration!)

[kaitlin008]

I think you can use a location you've never been to, and do it well, as long as you research. The internet makes everything so much easier, giving you the opportunity to talk to people from other places if you have specific questions.

The main thing that I would worry about in writing about people from other countries is dialogue. (Depending on your time period, though, I guess). There are huge differences in the way people say things and the slang words they use from place to place. I think that'd be the hardest part to research.

[Ms Hollands]

<thread steal>

Hello Emily. I used to live in Cambridge. I think the only book I'd ever want to write set there is one based on a punter who is *not* a student or someone else who has never actually attended the university. Hmmm....

*starts thinking about a story about punting and wonders if she can make it into a novel...*

</thread steal>

[maestrowork]

I think experience really does add to the feel -- especially the people, the atmosphere, the culture, etc. Anyone can write about New York, but those who have lived there really nail it as far as look and feel are concerned.

But it doesn't mean you MUST live somewhere before you can write it. After all, people have created out-of-the-world places or locations so remote that few people have ever gone before. Research can get you quite far. But I think if you plan to write about some place that is familiar to a lot of people, having some experience can only add to the authenticity.

I set my first novel in Southern California and SE Asia and since I've lived in both places, I could draw on my experiences and create the verisimilitude I needed. Not that my readers necessarily know or understand, but I think they can feel it.

My WIP is set in war-time Pacific Rim. Now, I've been to those places when I was much younger so I could still remember some of it, but I also have to rely on a lot of research. Obviously, I've never lived there during the 1940s. I feel comfortable with the locations, but I do have to work harder to make sure that they come off correctly, especially in the context of time.

[firedrake]

I feel much more comfortable writing about places I've lived in or visited because I do use a lot of description of surroundings, weather, flora and fauna to set the scene. I do tend to set my stories in places that I've fallen in love with and I'm lucky because I traveled a great deal in my younger days.

Three years ago I started writing a novel set in Arizona and New Mexico. The Arizona bit is easy to write because I live there. The NM bit defeated me. Sadly, I haven't got the time or the resources at the moment to explore the Kearny Trail, The Santa Fe Trail or the Camino Royale. Google Earth is good but I just didn't feel happy with what I was writing in terms of setting the scene.

I think you have to go with what you feel comfortable with and if the scenery isn't important to your story then Google is your friend.

[Namatu]

It depends on how important the location is to your story and your writing style. If you frequently need to make comment of characters driving down a particular road, getting food from a particular restaurant, gazing at objects of note from a particular part of town, it will help to have some first-hand knowledge. In many cases, I've found research to be suitable on its own.

[sleepsheep]

I think that actual experience of the place is very important - and I don't mean just the kind of experience you get from visiting, but actually living and staying at a place for a very long time. For example, I've been to many parts of the UK several times, often for extended stays. But if I write anything that's set in London, it always comes out with the voice of a tourist. So, I haven't been able to write anything convincing that's not set in New York.

That being said, I think there are other considerations that you have to take into account. For example, if the city is a prominent aspect of your book, definitely first-hand experience is important. (I am thinking of Paul Auster, for example, or Gaiman's 'Neverwhere'). It's impossible to describe the true feel of Washington Square park just from "walking around it" on Google Maps. However, if your location is not too important to the story and the characters, I think you can get away with just research.

[miles]

I asked this same question not too long ago:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107259

[Emily Winslow]

It depends on how important the location is to your story and your writing style. If you frequently need to make comment of characters driving down a particular road, getting food from a particular restaurant, gazing at objects of note from a particular part of town, it will help to have some first-hand knowledge. In many cases, I've found research to be suitable on its own.

I think it's a mistake to think that the gap one needs to fill here is for purposes of physical description. Yes, one does need to solve that problem--what kind of houses are here? How are the roads laid out? But if one is writing a novel in which location plays a significant part, and for whatever reason you can't be there yourself, aim a large part of your research toward first-hand accounts of what it's like to live there. How do acquaintances and neighbors act toward one another? How does the town/city layout affect relationships? What are the cultural practices that affect interactions? What is valued in this culture?

Every place has a culture. Research the geography, yes, of course; but don't forget the culture.

[Emily Winslow]

Hi April!

Heh. I know what you mean about Cambridge stories being dominated by students.

Confession: my book set in Cambridge centers on students (and fellows and professors and former students). I'm afraid I find the college system and college architecture too much to resist!

<thread steal>

Hello Emily. I used to live in Cambridge. I think the only book I'd ever want to write set there is one based on a punter who is *not* a student or someone else who has never actually attended the university. Hmmm....

*starts thinking about a story about punting and wonders if she can make it into a novel...*

</thread steal>

[Barpaio]

I grew up overseas, moving every couple of years, so for me its a bit a stroke of luck. But I've always thought that you should actually have been to a location to write about it, unless of course it's a made up location for some sci-fi novel. There are just a lot of aspects of a place you can only pick up by being there, things like smells, people, accents, quirks of the locals etc... that help add authenticity to a novel.

[ClaudiaGray]

Although I set a lot of my work in locales I have only researched, I have to admit, it makes a difference when I've actually visited or, better yet, lived in the places I write about.

But as I can't possibly travel everywhere I hope to write about, I'll have to keep with the research and finding local betas, and hope for the best.

[Emily Winslow]

There are just a lot of aspects of a place you can only pick up by being there, things like smells, people, accents, quirks of the locals etc... that help add authenticity to a novel.

And pace of life! That's another one that's just come to me.

I grew up near New York City. When I visited a few months ago, it all came back to me. I felt so, so, so "at home" with the familiar pace, and the familiar way of relating to people succinctly. Ahhhhhh... (<that's a contented sigh, not a scream ;-)

[Henri Bauholz]

Experience in a place is preferable, but not always possible especially if you are writing something like the colonization of Mars. Even if you are writing sci-fi, I think your personal experiences then to intrude. That might be true if you are writing about someplace, where you never been before, i.e. the Taj Mahal or Moscow Square. Still I think your personal experience will filter into the story.

My Blog (http://yeyeright.wordpress.com)

[Atlantis]

My published short stories are often in locations that I have never travelled to or seen in person. I've done extensive research for them but a book would require so much more. I know a few have been done by people that have never been to their stories location.
Do you think it can be done properly without personal experience? I wanted to do that but fear making glaring errors from not actually seeing the location myself. Anyone accomplish this or did you travel to the location?

I have plans for a book to be set in 1910 Ireland, another in America in the 2020s, another in Japan in the 80s, another in Germany in the 40s, on in London in the 1800s, another in Brazil in the 60s and another in France in the 20s. With the exception of France and London, I've never been to any of these places. I'm not going to let it stop me from writing about them. Take Ireland for example. I've set that book in a provice in the countryside in 1910. In my research I've tracked down maps, photos, books, all sorts of things. I will try to make it as realistic as possible but in the end I'm going to have to just use my imagination to fill in the blanks. It does not matter if the location is not 100% perfect. Just do your best. Not everyone can hop on a plane to research a setting.

[Captain Ian]

It's a case of negating the weak points and emphasizing the strong points. Nothing beats experience, but whatever the case, the reader must never suspect that you've never been in the place you're describing. Just how you manage that -- it's up to you ;)

[shtrum]

Kind of a humorous story about Dustin Hoffman and Lawrence Olivier while filming Marathon Man. DH was method acting and wouldn't shower, to make his character appear more exhausted and gritty. LO's response was that DH was an actor, and should be able to 'act' his way through it. Rather than afflicting the rest of the cast with his body odor.

Two different styles of acting, both with merit. As far as whether or not anyone actually has to live in a place in order to write about it, it surely helps. But it's not necessary. Most of the readers won't have lived in that particular area either. The caveat: with Google and other resources at everyone's fingertips, there's no excuse for not doing a fair amount of research to be as realistic as possible.

A current example. Author Tess Uriza Holthe's bestseller When the Elephants Dance, which takes place in the Phillipines. Although it's where her family is from, she has never actually been there. She drew the details about the location from family members.

[Feidb]

So far, all of my novels have been written (90% anyway) in places I've been. I've had the good fortune to have been to a lot of places, thanks to the Air Force, and I use that heavily in my writing.

In doing so, I can add subtle details the tourist would not know about.

When I have a location I've never been to come up in the story, I either stay vague, talk to people that have been there and try to get a little touch of reality, or get on the Internet.

For instance, I lived in Spain and Turkey and two of my novels are heavily based on those areas. On the other hand, I've never been to either Kinsale, Ireland, or New Orleans, but they are major locations in my novel Lusitania Gold. In those cases, the Internet works wonders. I must add that another very valuable tool, which might not seem so apparent, is Google Maps. For your location, pull it up on Google Maps and zero in on the most detailed setting you can get on the Satellite images. Sometimes, those details are pretty crappy, depending on the latest satellite sweep, but sometimes you can hit gold and zero in on "cars in the driveway" detail. Also, try the Topography setting as it can eliminate some nasty little surprises like a road that is flat in your story but actually goes up a steep hill. And, if nothing else fails, contact the chamber of commerce (if available) or the location's web site.

In summary, no you don't have to have been there. Yes, it helps, but it is definitely NOT a requirement.

[DMarie84]

I think you can confidently write about a place you've never been in a novel. That's what I'm doing. You just have to make sure the research is done well enough that someone who lives there or who has been there would see it as believable. I also echo what someone else said: make it to where the reader has no idea that you've never been there.

Mine is set in Northern Japan (for the most part, parts of Tokyo too) in 1890...I can't really know what it looked like then except for some pictures I've been able to find in books and online. I unfortunately do not have access to a time machine to see if how I'm describing it is accurate enough.:e2shrug:

I would love to actually visit the village I'm using as the setting for part of the novel. I've found many pictures online and use them as inspiration to put me in that place. I also plan on (hopefully) contacting someone in the local historical society or someone with enough knowledge about the town in that era that can help me flesh out the detail even more.

Of course experience is preferable; unfortunately I do not have the $$ it would require of me to travel to Japan and spend two weeks there studying what I need. I may get to go someday but it will likely be after the book is published.

[Swordswoman]

I think it's technically possible to write about somewhere you've never been, because you have both research and imagination. However, what scares me is the aspect of 'not knowing what I don't know'. I researched 17th century Paris very solidly indeed, but it wasn't till I went there and stood in the right place that I realized what I'd have been hearing if I'd been where my characters were at the time - that the 'ponceau' marked on my 1618 street map was actually a large fountain at the time and well within earshot of someone at the Porte St-Denis.

There's something else too. I've found I can write the book I've got just on research. But what about the book I might have discovered blowing my world open if I'd actually been there? That little anecdote from the taxi driver, the overheard exchange in the cafe, the row seen through a window can tell a whole lot more than Google.

There's a great extract from 'The Bookseller' by MarkEsq on SYW which certainly does what I'd like to be able to do with atmosphere and place. Have a look, and if you like it, why not ask him whether he went there? I'm rather betting he did...

[DMarie84]

There's something else too. I've found I can write the book I've got just on research. But what about the book I might have discovered blowing my world open if I'd actually been there? That little anecdote from the taxi driver, the overheard exchange in the cafe, the row seen through a window can tell a whole lot more than Google.

..

Very true. However, many writers (like me) don't have the funds for traveling to the other side of the world. If I did, I'd be on a plane to Tokyo in a heartbeat :D

Unfortunately, the "might have discovered" book is going to have to remain just that.

[Swordswoman]

Very true. However, many writers (like me) don't have the funds for traveling to the other side of the world. If I did, I'd be on a plane to Tokyo in a heartbeat :D

Unfortunately, the "might have discovered" book is going to have to remain just that.

I know, that's rotten. I was in just that situation when I started the last book, and probably will be again.

Unfortunately, the fact I couldn't travel didn't stop me believing I'd write better if I could. That's why this time I'm going everywhere in the whole book right at the start - and yes, I hate to admit it, but I think it's better.

[selkn.asrai]

I think it's technically possible to write about somewhere you've never been, because you have both research and imagination. However, what scares me is the aspect of 'not knowing what I don't know'. I researched 17th century Paris very solidly indeed, but it wasn't till I went there and stood in the right place that I realized what I'd have been hearing if I'd been where my characters were at the time - that the 'ponceau' marked on my 1618 street map was actually a large fountain at the time and well within earshot of someone at the Porte St-Denis...


How right you are, Sword. I've researched until my fingers have bled (ok, not literally, but you get my meaning.) I know what it was like; I'm always learning more nuances.

But nothing compares to standing there, imagining the environment, the voices, smells and sounds after such exhaustive saturation. I've been able to travel to my locations, but they are not too far and not too expensive. I don't expect to always be able to do so, and sometimes, research and photos/paintings will be my only means. It's not necessary to my writing, but it's an added, beneficial experience that I will pursue as long as it's within my means.

But perhaps we're more ok with travel vs. imagination because no matter where we travel, we're not going to experience another century in an immediate, tactile way.

[Barpaio]

Very true. However, many writers (like me) don't have the funds for traveling to the other side of the world. If I did, I'd be on a plane to Tokyo in a heartbeat :D

Unfortunately, the "might have discovered" book is going to have to remain just that.

I've spent a lot of time in Tokyo, of course, none of it in the 1800's. But I'd really like to hear more about your book as I enjoy most anything about that area. I'm kind of a huge fan of anything south-east Asian since most of my childhood was spent there, though I was born in Atlanta

[Enzo]

Thanks to the Internet, it's easier than ever to look up foreign and distant places, what they look like, the architecture, the food in the restaurants, the languages.
It doesn't beat going there, but it's still an enormous help.

[DMarie84]

I know, that's rotten. I was in just that situation with the last book, and probably will be again.

Unfortunately, the fact I couldn't travel didn't stop me believing I'd write better if I could. That's why this time I'm going everywhere in the whole book - and yes, I hate to admit it, but I think it's better.

It is better, and it's ideal. My aim is to at least try and make it look like I have been there, even if all I can do is find online pictures and use Google maps and (hopefully) use personal interviews to help flesh out the atmosphere.

It's too bad that I don't come up with stories set in the places I've been. Although that would be entirely boring in my opinion, as I've only ever lived in Ohio :e2yawn:

I really *can't* go there though, at least I can't see what it looked like in 1890. :tongue

[DMarie84]

I've spent a lot of time in Tokyo, of course, none of it in the 1800's. But I'd really like to hear more about your book as I enjoy most anything about that area. I'm kind of a huge fan of anything south-east Asian since most of my childhood was spent there, though I was born in Atlanta

I'll message you the rough synopsis of it. I don't want to hijack the thread ;)

[Leila]

I'm currently writing dystopian fantasy set in a city I've made up. So no. Haven't really been there personally for some reason :)

But setting is still something I'm particularly interested in as a writer. I like to know what the light is like in places, what they smell like, how they affect the people who live in them. I'm even interested in the weather. (Not that I bore people with it too much. Honestly.) And even though my places are invented, I spend a lot of time thinking about that stuff. Possibly even more than a lot of writers, because I want a place that came to me in a dream with every detail invented to be as real as anywhere you could actually go in person. However, the luxury of inventing locations is that you can do whatever you like with them without having someone who really lives there call you up on it. I also think you get a certain amount of leeway with historical locations, because no one's been there either. Although they do require a lot of research, so that some historian doesn't read your book and start finding mistakes.

I think contemporary locations where you haven't lived or had a chance to visit would be the hardest thing of all. (Unless it's somewhere remote which very few people would know.) Chances are, someone who has been there will read your work if it gets published, and if there's stuff wrong, they'll notice. But I don't think it's impossible, if you researched thoroughly. And some writers are more setting-oriented than others. Some people write things in a particular place but have a kind of universalness, where it seems like the stories could have happened anywhere, other people write things full of local detail and colour that feel like they could only be London, or where ever. I wouldn't ever say it was impossible, but I think it would be very, very hard to write the second sort of story without at least visiting a place. Google streetview covers a lot of places now, there are travel books, there are many many sources out there you could use, but that's not really the same, in the end.

I think people who live in a place would be the absolute best source of all, if you have access to any. If you write something set in New York, find someone who lives there and ask them lots of questions and get them to read your story and see if it's convincing. Maybe even make use of this forum, because it's massive. For every place around, there's probably at least one person on here who lives or has lived there or visited and could tell you about it. I mean, hey, if you ever for god-knows-what reason wanted to write a story about Auckland, I could seriously tell you everything. I could tell you what the various parts of the city are like, how the weather behaves, what Aucklanders are like, what it's like to drive around or catch buses here, what the volcanoes look like. Maybe you could start a thread and see what people can tell you?

[Fullback]

Dave Barry once wrote something excruciatingly funny that might be appropriate to this thread. He went to Japan to write a book and his publisher arranged for him to meet some high-level government person about cultural heritage.

Dave explained that he was writing a book about Japan. Japanese have no idea who he is or what he writes, so the official wondered about his background. Did he have decades of experience researching a culture that is over 1,200 years old? Did he speak Japanese? How much time had he spent in Japan?

Dave explained that it was his first time to visit Japan and he'd only be there for 2 weeks. You can imagine the silence that followed.

Dave ended the long silence by saying that it wasn't going to be a very good book about Japan. ;)

[Swordswoman]

That's a top post, Leila - I think you hit it square on the head.

It's also a good idea about asking other people here. The Research forum would seem a good place to try.

Unfortunately, DMarie and I won't find a lot of people who can help unless they've got time machines. But the principle is still the same. I get a lot from books and the net, but the best sources for me are contemporary letters, diaries and memoirs when I can find them - they're not consciously writing about their surroundings but can't help giving them away in the way that matters most, ie impact on people's lives. Someone's dress is ruined because of the filth people threw out of their windows onto the street. Someone didn't recognize her cousin because the linkmen were too far away and there was insufficient light. Someone couldn't find a house on a street in Paris because they were numbered oddly. It's all gold - because they really were there.

[Julie Worth]

Do you think it can be done properly without personal experience?

When it comes to rural areas it can work fine. If you use a Times Square setting without having been there, there are a million people to catch your mistakes. (Of course, for New York you can use the Google street view.)

[jubileerocker]

If you can research a place and make it come to life I don't see a problem with it. I had a random place in my story when I was mapping it out but when I started writing it I realized I was home sick and put the story right where I grew up. It's helpping me deal with the aspects of my life I am left craving

[DMarie84]

Dave Barry once wrote something excruciatingly funny that might be appropriate to this thread. He went to Japan to write a book and his publisher arranged for him to meet some high-level government person about cultural heritage.

Dave explained that he was writing a book about Japan. Japanese have no idea who he is or what he writes, so the official wondered about his background. Did he have decades of experience researching a culture that is over 1,200 years old? Did he speak Japanese? How much time had he spent in Japan?

Dave explained that it was his first time to visit Japan and he'd only be there for 2 weeks. You can imagine the silence that followed.

Dave ended the long silence by saying that it wasn't going to be a very good book about Japan. ;)


I have a feeling my book wouldn't be received too well then :tongue Especially coming from some American who hasn't been there before and has no Japanese heritage whatsoever.

Oh well. Still gonna write it :)

[Swordswoman]

I have a feeling my book wouldn't be received too well then :tongue Especially coming from some American who hasn't been there before and has no Japanese heritage whatsoever.

Oh well. Still gonna write it :)

You go ahead and write it, and I bet it goes fine. It's extremely clear from your posts how seriously you're taking this, and with your research and imagination I'm sure no-one will ever know.

The mistake Dave Barry made was in confessing ignorance. This is always dangerous. I made the mistake of approaching a fencing club for help with my swordsmanship, humbly confessing my ignorance, and got the reply 'Go and watch Zorro'. The next club I approached, I concealed my sex and my ignorance, I just sent them what I'd written (after two years of painstaking and indeed painful research) and they went 'wow'.

Don't you go confessing, don't you do it. You write that book, and I for one want to read it when it's done.

[Prawn]

Do you think it can be done properly without personal experience?

I hope so, I just did it. One thread of my recent novel was set in Estonia and I have never been there.

[Fullback]

A book about somewhere is different than a book set somewhere.

[cherubsmummy]

Just a thought - expat message boards are a great way to get a feel for a place, especially cultural and lifestyle differences. I haven't used them to research a book, but I have in researching places my husband has been offered jobs.

Emma

[DMarie84]

Don't you go confessing, don't you do it. You write that book, and I for one want to read it when it's done.

Ok!

When it's time for me to ask my research questions, I'm going to enlist the help of a friend who can read, write and speak Japanese. She knows the culture better than I do having spent a year in Japan teaching.

It's nice to know though I have one potential reader :D And thanks for the vote of confidence! :)