Paste first five pages?

[Horserider]

So I was talking to someone on querytracker today that always pastes the first five pages of his MS at the end of his query even if the agent says query only. He says that he's gotten full requests doing this from agents that say query only.

What is your take on this?

ETA the conversion would probably be helpful.

Them:
My policy when sending equeries is to always paste the first chapter (typically five pages or so) at the end of my query unless they very specifically indicate no samples 'pasted' or 'attached'. Doesn't seem to have harmed my query chances with those agents who state 'query only' on their submission guidelines. I figure sending an attachment will most certainly generate an automatic delete from those agents. But I am getting requests for partials and fulls from agents asking for queries only when I paste. Way I figure it, what's the harm if you include a sample at the end of your query letter? Worse case they don't read it. Best case is if your query has them on the cusp and they see you've included a sample of your writing, then it may help push them over the edge to ask for more...or not. But this gives you a broader shot at garnering an agent's interest.

My response:
Interesting, but wouldn't it seem unprofessional for you to paste the first five pages if they specifically say "query only"? Excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm new at this.

Their response:
Toss a coin on that one. It works for me. I'm in talks for representation with an agent right now that I approached just this way...pasting a sample after my query when their submission instructions requested a query only submission. The agent immediately contacted me to send the full based on the query and sample which she read and that resonated with her. So, is it unprofessional? My thoughts are what needs to be professional is your query. It needs to be the best you can write. It needs to move an agent to request more. By attaching a sample of your work you give that agent a bit more material to weigh. Hopefully in your favor. If you read Bransford's blog you will see his thinking. And by the way, I've queried him several times and each time I attached a sample. Perhaps that came into play on his decision to now request the first five pages pasted at the end of the query. Bottom line, do what you feel comfortable doing.

[blacbird]

They lie and are untrustworthy.

caw

[stormie]

Some say to do this, but most agents feel that if you can't follow their query submission policy, then you might not be good at following what they want if they were to take you on as a client. So it could be used against you. Take the safe route and follow their guidelines exactly.

[BenPanced]

Yeah. You could be the one the agent deletes without even responding because you included something that wasn't requested.

[nevada]

then again, with mail queries we always send the first five pages even if it says query only. why would email be any different. it's not like it's right up front, where he has to scroll through it to get to the query. it's at the end. so why not? as long as it doesn't interfere with the actual query and the agent needs to scroll down to read the pages, I say do it.

[James81]

Let me ask you a question...I see that you are female (in your profile it says so)...so let me ask you this:

You are out on a date. It's the end of the night and you pull into your house and you are sitting in the car waiting for a kiss. Clearly it's been a great date. Sparks flew at dinner and you are on cloud nine right now and you want him to kiss you.

Now let's say that he DOES lean over and kisses you, and before anything else he fumbles around, unzips his pants, and pulls out HALF of his naked penis.

How do you feel?

You were expecting a kiss and you got a man who was already rounding 3rd base. You probably feel a bit turned off.

Same principle applies here. In fact, treat querying like a dating game and you'll do well.

[Cyia]

I do this myself, and have gotten requests from agents on the queries. I know for a fact (now that I've read some of the query advice in SYW) that my query on its own was weak. I think the pages helped tip things in my favor because the narrative was stronger than the letter.

[nevada]

Now let's say that he DOES lean over and kisses you, and before anything else he fumbles around, unzips his pants, and pulls out HALF of his naked penis.



James, come on, thats a totally ridiculous analogy. pasting a couple of pages at the bottom of an email that the agent in no way needs to look at or even acknowledge or rifle through is in no way the same thing as some guy whipping out his yahoo on a date.

Miss Snark said always send the first five pages and that's good enough for me. :)

[Horserider]

James, come on, thats a totally ridiculous analogy. pasting a couple of pages at the bottom of an email that the agent in no way needs to look at or even acknowledge or rifle through is in no way the same thing as some guy whipping out his yahoo on a date.

Miss Snark said always send the first five pages and that's good enough for me.

LOL nevada. I have to admit the dating game analogy is a good one though. Sometimes you get rejected right off, sometimes the dates just go wrong, most relationships end in disaster and other times you get a happy marriage. (the happy marriage is the representation in this analogy)

Who's Miss Snark? I have a feeling I should know, but I don't.

[nevada]

LOL nevada. I have to admit the dating game analogy is a good one though. Sometimes you get rejected right off, sometimes the dates just go wrong, most relationships end in disaster and other times you get a happy marriage. (the happy marriage is the representation in this analogy)

Who's Miss Snark? I have a feeling I should know, but I don't.

miss snark is a literary agent, who blogged anonymously for a few years. she was snarky and right on the money. there were speculations who she was but i don't think it mattered much. you can read her blogs here. they're worth going through. even better than query shark.

http://misssnark.blogspot.com/

[DMarie84]

I wouldn't do it. I would follow the guidelines of the agent, since many become quite irritated at the inability of some writers who don't take the time to research or blatantly ignore their guidelines.

But that's just my opinion :e2zipped:

[Clair Dickson]

I do it unless the agent specifically says query only. If they just say query, then I'll put the first 3-5 pages at the bottom of the email.

[2Wheels]

Question is, is it really the sample that does it, or is it a good query and the requests would come even without the sample?

[dempsey]

Let me ask you a question...I see that you are female (in your profile it says so)...so let me ask you this:

You are out on a date. It's the end of the night and you pull into your house and you are sitting in the car waiting for a kiss. Clearly it's been a great date. Sparks flew at dinner and you are on cloud nine right now and you want him to kiss you.

Now let's say that he DOES lean over and kisses you, and before anything else he [redacted for inappropriateness].

How do you feel?

You were expecting a kiss and you got a man who was already rounding 3rd base. You probably feel a bit turned off.

Same principle applies here. In fact, treat querying like a dating game and you'll do well.

Oh, totally. Exposing yourself to a woman and tacking on some words at the end of an email are exactly the same thing.

ETA:

To actually address the topic and not simply show my irritation at a false analogy that trivializes sexual harassment...

If you are the type of person who thinks it's okay to break rules in minor ways to get things, and the agent is such a rulemonger that they reject you right from the start for this small infraction, this is likely not a good match.

If you stick to the rules closely, and the agent likes people who stick closely to rules, possibly good match.

If you stick close to the rules, and your query is weak but your writing is strong, it's likely you could be passed by an agent.

If you paste your pages, and your query is strong but your writing is weak, you'll also likely get passed. And if this is done, you won't know if it's your query or your writing that hurts you.

Lots of variables. Go with what feels right.

[Shweta]

Guys, can we keep the analogies family-friendly, please? (original and quoted)

This is an all-ages forum.

[peachiemkey]

My plan is to paste the first 5 pages if it just says "query." If it says "query only" then probably not, although it'll depend on the strength of my query and how desperate I am to catch the agent's attention.

[Raphee]

I paste my first five pages, irrespective. Agents have still asked for more.
I do think it is a toss up. Reading agent blogs, it seems that where it might hurt or sometimes be useful is where Agents are on the fence regarding the query.
The writing sample might lure them in Or help them say no.

It is a toss up, I think.

[stormie]

Remember: Miss Snark is only one agent. She may have said to just go ahead and include the first five pages, requested or not, but there are many agents who get peeved by writers not following their guidelines exactly, even if it is at the end of an email. Shows if you'e someone they can work with.

Also, why would an agent scroll down some more (or look at the rest of the pages) if the query doesn't hook them?

[Hillgate]

I used to take the Dirty Harry approach ie 'do you feel lucky, punk?'

Then I got an agent and I think she also packs heat.

If you wanna do it, do it. The worst that can happen is the big R.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I was raised to follow the rules.

[ChaosTitan]

I always pasted the first five pages at the end of e-queries. The only times I didn't were when guidelines asked for something else (such as ten pages) to be included.

[nevada]

Also, why would an agent scroll down some more (or look at the rest of the pages) if the query doesn't hook them?

Because I have read at least five different blogs by five different agents who have all said they have signed clients even though their query was not good and the agent wouldn't have requested any material. But the writer included the first five pages which showed very good writing and the agent, based on those five pages he didn't specificially asked for, asked for a full and ended up signing the writer. That's five writers who wouldn't have had an agent and made a sale if they hadn't bent a teeny part of a submission. Nobody's saying send a full when the agent says query. nobody's saying send pink paper and sparklies. Five extra pages makes no difference to anyone.

[stormie]

...five extra pages makes no difference to anyone.
To some, yes. And if it's your dream agent who specifically wishes writers would follow his or her rules, yes, it matters.

[Hillgate]

I was raised to follow the rules.

'The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man adapts the world to himself. Therefore all progress is made by the unreasonable man.'

GBS

QED

:)

[James81]

When you guys say "pasted the first 5 pages" at the end of e-quiries, does that mean you just copy/pasted it right there below your query?

Or attached a file or what?

[Clair Dickson]

Pasted-- no attachments. I paste the text into Notepad, put in extra spaces between paragraphs, save it, close it, open it, then Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C, go to the email, insert cursor after query sig, Ctrl+V.

Sending unsolicited attachments is the sure fire way to end up getting deleted.

[ChaosTitan]

In the end, it's up to each person to decide what to do. There's no surefire way of knowing if pasting the pages is an auto-reject, or if it's for other reasons. No good agent is going to turn down a query that hooks them simply because you pasted in pages they didn't ask for.

[Shady Lane]

I always copy-pasted unless the guidelines specifically said "query only." then I didn't.

And in the last paragraph of the query, I'd write, "I've included the first few pages in case you'd like to get a feel for the writing."

[DeadlyAccurate]

I started getting more requests and more personalized rejections when I included sample pages, even if the agent didn't specifically ask for them. Only if the agent was adamant about not receiving anything else did I leave off the sample. It's at the bottom of the email, out of the way, and it's not like it takes up any more room.

[Horserider]

When you guys say "pasted the first 5 pages" at the end of e-quiries, does that mean you just copy/pasted it right there below your query?

Or attached a file or what?

Copy/paste. I don't know everything about querying (not even close), but I DO know that you NEVER ever ever ever attach unrequested material. It's the fastest way to a deleted query.

[DeleyanLee]

miss snark is a literary agent, who blogged anonymously for a few years. she was snarky and right on the money. there were speculations who she was but i don't think it mattered much. you can read her blogs here.

No offense, but she claimed to be a literary agent who had people say they knew who she was but never made her name public even after she closed her blog. Since a significant portion of what her advice was contrary to what I heard from respectable agents who did admit their identity, I'd take her blog for the entertainment value and not as any serious advice. Though, at times, it was good entertainment.

Personally, I see a query as a business letter so adding five pages at the end of it seems unprofessional to me. But, that's me. If it works for someone else, more power to them. However, my track record is about 80% requests for full, 15% requests for partials and 5% rejections on my queries, so what I'm doing works well for me. *shrug*

[Prawn]

James, come on, thats a totally ridiculous analogy. pasting a couple of pages at the bottom of an email that the agent in no way needs to look at or even acknowledge or rifle through is in no way the same thing as some guy whipping out his yahoo on a date.

Miss Snark said always send the first five pages and that's good enough for me. :)

James' analogy is perfect: you should never insert a picture of your penis at the bottom of your query.

Now as far as a sample chapter, that's a different story. I recommend doing that.

[ChaosTitan]

Just saw this on agent Nathan Bransford's blog and thought it apropos to the conversation. He's recently changed his submission guidelines (http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/2009/02/book-revenue-breakdown.html).

[Horserider]

Yup Chaos he now takes first five pages with query.

[blacbird]

James' analogy is perfect: you should never insert a picture of your penis at the bottom of your query.

Damn, I wish somebody would have told me this sooner.

caw