What is Grace?

[LaceWing]

Not "saying grace," but being graced or in a state of grace?

I read very little religious literature, but enjoy novels with modern religious themes of a certain kind. I've yet to understand this term. Seems it's usually couched in other religious language, becoming part of one big extended metaphor that I can't unpack.

[C.bronco]

I always considered it a state of being blessed or emitting virtues. Not the right verb, but that's the closest I can get without looking it up.
:D

[WildScribe]

In a state where one is being "touched by God"? Or is that another metaphor?

[Guffy]

The quick answers is that grace is a gift you don't deserve and couldn't get on you own.

[callalily61]

In my experience and research, grace can come in many different ways. It can be part of a sense of peace during prayer, or that extra boost of courage in a dangerous situation, or the knowledge of the right thing to say at the right time to say it.

[Ruv Draba]

Among my Christian friends, grace comprises gifts given by the Christian god that you didn't deserve to have -- gifts that help you develop as a person. Gifts like patience, tolerance, compassion.

Among my humanist and Buddhist friends it's the same, except we believe that you do deserve them, that you can develop these things yourself with effort, and sometimes you just get lucky. ;)

[LaceWing]

Ah. Thank you all.

I've found a place to put this now. Existentialism clicked for me, helped me settle questions I wanted to explore, but: the versions I encountered did not have this element, or did not hit me over the head hard enough for me to notice.

No, wait. Martin Buber's I And Thou tried . . . but was too mystic, as if it needed to obscure a mystery in order to honor it, to give it special privilege?

Oh wow. And now I just connected Grace to the pool scene in The Little Prince, one of the most joyful scenes I've ever encountered in either real life or literature.

[AMCrenshaw]

Endless love.



AMC

[aruna]

Endless love.



AMC

... and complete, overwhelming joy that comes not form any external circumstance but from within, joy so great you feel you cannot even contain it, and all you can do is cry with gratitude, and say "thank you" over and over again.

[Cassiopeia]

I've often said that "my daily walks have been filled with grace" means I'm blessed, and at peace and it's a blessing beyond my ability to express.

[Alpha Echo]

The quick answers is that grace is a gift you don't deserve and couldn't get on you own.

That's exactly how my pastor described it this past week.

[III]

I've always liked this explanation:

Justice is getting what you deserve
Mercy is not getting what you deserve
Grace is getting what you don't deserve

[Alpha Echo]

I've always liked this explanation:

Justice is getting what you deserve
Mercy is not getting what you deserve
Grace is getting what you don't deserve

Exactly. Simplistic and right on. :)

[James81]

I don't think looking at it in terms of whether you deserve it or not is a very good way to look at it. If you didn't deserve it, in God's eyes, he wouldn't give it to you.

This is something, that I think, having children helps you understand. My kids make all kinds of mistakes, do all kinds of things to get yelled at, etc. They work on my last nerve sometimes with their antics. And sometimes I have to yell or discipline them or let them fall on their own. Sometimes I have to be tough.

But even in the tough moments, and throughout the rest of the time I don't allow those things, those bad things they do, to really determine if they deserve the good things I give them. To me, my love for them just...is. It exists and it overshadows anything they could do to make me angry.

And that's what I think Grace is. It just is. It's something God extends to us because we are his children and he loves us.

[Jean Marie]

All good answers.

Put it this way: you can't buy it at your local store.

It's God (of your understanding) given. It's an inside job.

[stormie]

It's that which makes us a better person.

[AMCrenshaw]

Grace is getting what you don't deserve

Eeek. Positive things, I hope. (I've seen children hit by cars. Grace?)

AMC

[Alpha Echo]

I don't think looking at it in terms of whether you deserve it or not is a very good way to look at it. If you didn't deserve it, in God's eyes, he wouldn't give it to you.

This is something, that I think, having children helps you understand. My kids make all kinds of mistakes, do all kinds of things to get yelled at, etc. They work on my last nerve sometimes with their antics. And sometimes I have to yell or discipline them or let them fall on their own. Sometimes I have to be tough.

But even in the tough moments, and throughout the rest of the time I don't allow those things, those bad things they do, to really determine if they deserve the good things I give them. To me, my love for them just...is. It exists and it overshadows anything they could do to make me angry.

And that's what I think Grace is. It just is. It's something God extends to us because we are his children and he loves us.

In the Bible numerous times, we are told that we deserve NOTHING. We are so small, our sins are so dispicable, that should we choose to believe in the Bible, we deserve nothing. Especially not enternal life.

So when God sent his son to die for us, THAT is grace because he gave us a chance at eternal life when we don't deserve it.

What we do deserve is an eternity in hell. Yet, God offers us a way to heaven, a chance to be wiped clean and forgiven. That is mercy.

[III]

Eeek. Positive things, I hope. (I've seen children hit by cars. Grace?)

AMC

Yes, positive things. A good example is the story of the prodigal son. He abandoned and dishonored his father and squandered his inheritance and returned to beg his father to be his servant.

Justice would have been if his father had turned him away.

Mercy would have been if his father had hired him as a servant.

Grace was when the father ran to meet him, put his best robe on him, and killed the fatted calf and reinstated him as his son.

[AMCrenshaw]

Yes, positive things

Whew. :)

[James81]

In the Bible numerous times, we are told that we deserve NOTHING. We are so small, our sins are so dispicable, that should we choose to believe in the Bible, we deserve nothing. Especially not enternal life.

So when God sent his son to die for us, THAT is grace because he gave us a chance at eternal life when we don't deserve it.

What we do deserve is an eternity in hell. Yet, God offers us a way to heaven, a chance to be wiped clean and forgiven. That is mercy.

John 15:

15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

One of my guilty pleasures is that I loved the movie Pretty Woman. Ha ha, so sue me. But there is a scene in the movie towards the end where Edward looks at Vivian and says, "I have never once treated you like a prostitute."

When he walks away, she mutters under her breath: "You just did."

I think it's understood, that in our natural state (without "God" according to the bible) that we "deserve nothing."

But Jesus has never once talked to us like that. He calls us friends. He calls us his brother. He washed our feet. Not once did he ever treat us like the scum that we can be without him.

And until we accept that, and stop talking like we are "prostitutes", I don't think we can ever appreciate it. You ever notice in that movie how the moment Vivian stops thinking of herself as a prosititute and becomes something more, is the moment her and Edwards relationship gained depth?

My point is that so many christians like to beat up on themselves, say things like they don't deserve it, etc. But God has went out of his way to show his love for you and I think it's kind of spitting on that to say "well I'm just a hooker" to the man who never saw you as a hooker to begin with.

If that makes sense. (and I hope that analogy is ok for this forum)

[Jean Marie]

Whew. :)
Got scared there for a second, huh? :D

Now, let's all say Grace!

That was my paternal grandmother's name. A lovely name, too that fit her perfectly. According to my uncle, I'm a lot like her in her spontaneity.

Grace is all positive. 'Tis a gift, I think and something to strive for. A state of being, a state of mind.

A general sense of peacefulness, of awe.

[Roger J Carlson]

I like to use an analogy. Like any analogy, it is not perfect.

Each of us is living in a pit of our own devising. Every time we sin (sin being roughly defined as any action that does not love your neighbor has yourself), the pit gets a little deeper.

Grace is God standing at the rim of the pit and holding His hand down. No matter how deep the pit gets, His arm is always long enough. All we have to do is look up and grab it and He'll pull us up. Most of us never look up.

Grace, in order to work, requires us to act. We need to receive it, accept it, grab hold. The amazing thing about grace is, once accepted, God never lets go. Even if you jump back down in the pit, He hauls you back up, again and again.

[Alpha Echo]

John 15:

15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

One of my guilty pleasures is that I loved the movie Pretty Woman. Ha ha, so sue me. But there is a scene in the movie towards the end where Edward looks at Vivian and says, "I have never once treated you like a prostitute."

When he walks away, she mutters under her breath: "You just did."

I think it's understood, that in our natural state (without "God" according to the bible) that we "deserve nothing."

But Jesus has never once talked to us like that. He calls us friends. He calls us his brother. He washed our feet. Not once did he ever treat us like the scum that we can be without him.

And until we accept that, and stop talking like we are "prostitutes", I don't think we can ever appreciate it. You ever notice in that movie how the moment Vivian stops thinking of herself as a prosititute and becomes something more, is the moment her and Edwards relationship gained depth?

My point is that so many christians like to beat up on themselves, say things like they don't deserve it, etc. But God has went out of his way to show his love for you and I think it's kind of spitting on that to say "well I'm just a hooker" to the man who never saw you as a hooker to begin with.

If that makes sense. (and I hope that analogy is ok for this forum)

I agree. But Jesus and God, they love us all. Even as sinners. Grace is a way offered to get to heaven. But in my faith and my beliefs, despite the fact that God loves us all, not all of us are going to heaven.

I hope no one takes that in such a way that is not intended. I know that we are all walking on egg shells in here, and I completely understand why. I am just stating the foundations of my faith, not condemning anyone or anyone else's faith. I know that a lot of time, Christians are deemed as intolerant because of our beliefs, but how can this not be an open forum if I do not state them? Okay...I'm rambling. I just want it to be known that I am just arguing my point, not anyone's soul.

[Alpha Echo]

I like to use an analogy. Like any analogy, it is not perfect.

Each of us is living in a pit of our own devising. Every time we sin (sin being roughly defined as any action that does not love your neighbor has yourself), the pit gets a little deeper.

Grace is God standing at the rim of the pit and holding His hand down. No matter how deep the pit gets, His arm is always long enough. All we have to do is look up and grab it and He'll pull us up. Most of us never look up.

Grace, in order to work, requires us to act. We need to receive it, accept it, grab hold. The amazing thing about grace is, once accepted, God never lets go. Even if you jump back down in the pit, He hauls you back up, again and again.

I agree, and I think that that was beautifully said.

[Cassiopeia]

Yes, positive things. A good example is the story of the prodigal son. He abandoned and dishonored his father and squandered his inheritance and returned to beg his father to be his servant.

Justice would have been if his father had turned him away.

Mercy would have been if his father had hired him as a servant.

Grace was when the father ran to meet him, put his best robe on him, and killed the fatted calf and reinstated him as his son.Oh this is one of my favorite stories. It's so real to me. Max Lucado writes beautifully in the retelling of it.

He recounts for us the conversation between the faithful son who stayed and his father. The son is bitter and complains that his father shouldn't do this for his brother. (I'm paraphrasing) And the father speaks to him with such wisdom and in essense says to him, "Be at peace for everything I have is yours, but let's rejoice because your brother who was lost to us is now returned."

Perhaps grace is wisdom too. The father was so grateful that despite what his younger son had done, he had finally come home to him. Grace isn't just something extended to us by God, we too can extend it to our loved ones.

[Alpha Echo]

Grace isn't just something extended to us by God, we too can extend it to our loved ones.

And in fact, we should. If we are to love as God commands us and as Jesus says is the most important commandment, then we should try to emulate (sp?) Jesus' love by extending grace, mercy, and forgiveness as he did.

[Guffy]

James, in saying that we do not deserve grace does not diminish God's love for us it increases it. The ultimate proof of God's love was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God does not treat us as we deserve he treats us as if we are perfect, as we do to our children when we forgive them. We understand when our children are less than perfect because we have been in their shoes and we know what its like, and we love them. But more than just love (the feeling) we also want whats best for them, (the love that God has for us). Sometimes these two ideas conflict. (discipline).

[MacAllister]

Does Grace exist as a meaningful concept, then, without first accepting the notion of original sin?

[Cassiopeia]

Does Grace exist as a meaningful concept, then, without first accepting the notion of original sin?Latter-day Saints don't believe in original sin but do believe in grace so I'd say it can.

I think one can even believe in the concept of grace and not attach it to sin. My reasoning for this is that as a parent, I bless my children out of love for them even though they disobey me.

Is grace forgiveness? Blessing? Peace?

[aruna]

Endless love.



AMC

Does Grace exist as a meaningful concept, then, without first accepting the notion of original sin?

Well, this is the "comparative religion" forum so let's look at a Hindu interpretation of sin, original sin, and Grace.

"Original Sin" of course does not exist for Hindus in the sense that
each soul is born in sin as a result of Adam's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Yet they do have a concept of "original sin": that being the original splitting off of the soul (not quite the right word, but the nearest thing I can find) from God, which is its source and its foundation.

In the act of splitting off we separate, and then identify with that false sense of separation, separation from God and one from the other; and that false identification is the actual "original sin". But Hindus refer to speak of ignorance rather than sin: ignorance of our true being, which is divine.

Ignorance is thus the cause of all wrongdoing; wrongdoing comes from selfishness, and that's from the sense of separation. When the sense of separation subsides we can only feel love for all beings, for we feel our oneness with all beings. Where there is love there can be no sin.

Vedantists believe that the mind, normaly envelopped in a thick blanket of thought, must turn back to its own source until it becomes purified and at one with its source. This requires great effort, for by nature the mind seeks fulfillment in thousands of ways away from its source.

Grace, for Hindus, is a sudden, overwhelming breakthrough of that source through the curtain of ignorance in which the mind is enveloped. It can come about through single-minded devotion, through huge effort. It can also come about as a spontaneous gift, a flow of overwhelming love and joy, completely undeserved in the usual sense of the word.

However, there is no such thing as "undeserved" in Hinduism, since we are all not originally sinful, but originally in a state of grace, which is pure happiness. Grace would be simply a return to that pure happiness, a natural thing, really, if not for our ingrained habits of mind.

It's very hard for me to find the right words to describe all this, so forgive my awkward wording.

So, to answer Mac's question, in Hinduism Grace CAN and DOES exist apart from "original sin". Grace is our very birthright!

[James81]

James, in saying that we do not deserve grace does not diminish God's love for us it increases it. The ultimate proof of God's love was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. God does not treat us as we deserve he treats us as if we are perfect, as we do to our children when we forgive them. We understand when our children are less than perfect because we have been in their shoes and we know what its like, and we love them. But more than just love (the feeling) we also want whats best for them, (the love that God has for us). Sometimes these two ideas conflict. (discipline).

How often do your children look up at you and say "I don't deserve your love" though?

I think it's so damaging to us to say things like "we don't deserve it" and "we are filthy grimy sinners." But I'm looking at it from a psychological aspect moreso than a religious aspect.

[Guffy]

I've heard this filthy grimy thing a lot but I don't ascribe to it. I do realize that any sin I commit no mater how small against God makes me unfit to be with him since God can not tolerate sin. What not deserving God's grace means to me, is that there is nothing I can do to that will keep God from offering it to me. When I accept God's grace he forgets about my sin and makes me completely clean, or to use a biblical term holy. God makes me holy and because his grace is continual I am continually being made holy, even though I'm not perfect.

When our children are born they have done nothing to deserve our love and yet we love them, and we would do anything to protect and nurture them, including somethings that others might think where evil.

When your trying to do what's best for millions of children there are bond to be a few that do not understand.