HTML poll

[MacAllister]

How much html do you know? Are you interested in learning a little? Do you understand (if you DON'T know, or don't know as much as you think you might) how much understanding the principles of very basic html will help you, blogging and web-writing in general?

Poll about to follow.

[Cassiopeia]

I've been using HTML for some time now but I find if I don't use it, I lose it. Things come back to me quickly but I wouldn't mind having some way to brush up and learn more about it.

[CACTUSWENDY]

Could always use more info. I have this brain that things slip out of real easyly. lol.

I think this is a fine idea. Thanks for offering it.

[TheRightEyedDeer]

It's like most things, really. If I don't use it frequently, the tags get rusty. :)

[Crystal Lewis]

While I'm not ready to start writing code from scratch, I am ok with editing HTML, especially now that I have blogs that require minor programming ability. (FYI, if you ever switch from a standard blogger template to a custom template, you'll pull all of your hair out. The whole HTML thing can be a real beast when it comes to designing or manipulating a blog template).

For the record, if you ever need a good website to consult for html tips, try these...

Color Codes: http://html-color-codes.com/
Functions: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

Great poll. Can't wait to see the other responses.

[Cranky]

Oh boy. I *used* to be somewhat proficient with FrontPage back in the Dark Ages, but I've found that almost anything beyond really basic stuff like < i > < / i >, etc, has totally escaped me.

Thanks, Crystal, for those lists...I could really use a list of color and function codes. :Thumbs:

So, yeah. Any help that I could get would be fan-freaking-tastic.

[Medievalist]

I dream in HTML.

I do CSS on the fly. :D

[MacAllister]

While I'm not ready to start writing code from scratch, I am ok with editing HTML, especially now that I have blogs that require minor programming ability. (FYI, if you ever switch from a standard blogger template to a custom template, you'll pull all of your hair out. The whole HTML thing can be a real beast when it comes to designing or manipulating a blog template).
The CSS was actually a lot harder for me, on blogger templates. There's an elegance to it, though, once you get the hang of how it goes together.

Nice links, btw.

[Cassiopeia]

The CSS was actually a lot harder for me, on blogger templates. There's an elegance to it, though, once you get the hang of how it goes together.

Nice links, btw.
Oh, now I'd like to get the hang of CSS better and how it all ties in with HTML. I'm out of the loop now for way too long.

I also use w3schools as a reference.

[MacAllister]

It's weird. I consider myself fairly proficient, but every time I look at a page of code, I learn something new about how to use stuff -- especially for layout. Like tables being largely obsolete, but divs being fairly crucial.

[Medievalist]

Just remember wrt to CSS and IDs . . .

There Can Be Only One (of each ID type).

[Medievalist]

(FYI, if you ever switch from a standard blogger template to a custom template, you'll pull all of your hair out. The whole HTML thing can be a real beast when it comes to designing or manipulating a blog template).

Oh yeah. MacCannister likes the new front page design I used on her site, and on the Absolutewrite site.

So she asked me to convert it to a Blogger template . ..

ask. ptui ack ack ack

I've got a div that's Just Not Working. I've sent it on to a true geek.

[Bartholomew]

How much html do you know? Are you interested in learning a little? Do you understand (if you DON'T know, or don't know as much as you think you might) how much understanding the principles of very basic html will help you, blogging and web-writing in general?

Poll about to follow.


I know all the basics, but I have no idea how to make my HTML clean and efficient. I also have issues with tables. x_x

[Medievalist]

I know all the basics, but I have no idea how to make my HTML clean and efficient. I also have issues with tables. x_x

Don't use tables for anything except tabular data. Don't use them for layout, for example.

[dpaterso]

...Whoa, hold on, there's an alternative to tables? Why wasn't I informed?! My tickertape machine hasn't moved in weeks.

-Derek

[Cassiopeia]

Am I right in the understanding that a search engine's bot does not read what is inside a table?

[Medievalist]

Am I right in the understanding that a search engine's bot does not read what is inside a table?

That's not true of any of the bots I'm familiar with.

It might be true for others, but honestly, it's not very sensible for a bot to do that; tables are old, I think HTML 1.1, in fact.

And there are times when you should use tables.

[MacAllister]

Cassi, I think you're confusing tables with frames - which is a different problem, but yeah. The bots won't search inside frames unless you very specifically tell them to in the code itself.

[Cassiopeia]

thank you, I wondered about that. I had heard that about 3 years ago in a digital media class from the instructor but a very close friend of mine who is a programmer said "bullocks". :)

[Cassiopeia]

Cassi, I think you're confusing tables with frames - which is a different problem, but yeah. The bots won't search inside frames unless you very specifically tell them to in the code itself.oh boy, what are frames? And let me say, thank you so very much ahead of time for clearing up some misconceptions. :)

[Medievalist]

oh boy, what are frames? And let me say, thank you so very much ahead of time for clearing up some misconceptions. :)

Urp.

Frames are Eeeeviiiilllll.

Here's a site with frames:

http://www.dakim.com

This is a site I use to talk about poorly constructed sites. It's a good company, with a super product, but the site sucks in just about every way possible.

Frames are ways of creating multiple pages on a single screen; mostly frames, if they're used at all these days, are uses to create a navigation bar.

But there are better ways to do that now.

This site:

http://www.rhetoricainc.com

Also uses frames; that means, for one thing, that it's very hard to give a URL for a specific page or "thing" on the site. Which means it's hard for a bot to spider it; bots don't keep trying, like humans. This site sucks much much less, but it's still very hard for the average /naive user to figure out how to get a URL for a specific book, for instance. (This is Richard Lanham's site; he's a mentor, and I love his books. Mostly :D.)

I'm not trying to be difficult; but honestly, the only way to understand frames is to experience the horror.

[MacAllister]

Can I ask a question? I've had people submit stuff that was supposedly coded, but they didn't close tags. Who on earth is out there teaching that stuff? That is - they do the <p>My paragraph begins here, yadda yadda yadda. It should end any time now.


But then they don't use the </p> tag -- which is...non standard. Instead, they just use a new <p> tag with the next paragraph. What's UP with that, anyone?

[Cassiopeia]

I just went to w3schools to try some coding without ending tags, it didn't work all that well.

[Medievalist]

Can I ask a question? I've had people submit stuff that was supposedly coded

Don't say "code" -- say "tagged," if you're really a PiTA, or "HTML'd" or "in HTML."

Actual programmers will snicker at us if we refer to HTML as "code."

[MacAllister]

Heh...oooooohhhh! Can't have the Real Geeks snickering at us. Roger Wilco, and thank you. :)

Honestly, better than half my trouble with all of this is that I'm almost entirely self-taught, which makes it really hard to talk about, because I fumble with the vocabulary--so I always really appreciate it when I get a chance to have stuff explained to me, too. Otherwise, it's all trial and error. (Hmmm. The entire board is insisting on centering in IE. Weird. I wonder which div I forgot to close?)

[Medievalist]

can't have the Real Geeks snickering at us. Roger Wilco, and thank you. :)

Exactly!

Our Roger will snicker, as will Scott (shawkins) and stonetable.

[JenNipps]

How much html do you know? Are you interested in learning a little? Do you understand (if you DON'T know, or don't know as much as you think you might) how much understanding the principles of very basic html will help you, blogging and web-writing in general?

I feel like I'm pretty proficient with HTML. Or I was once upon a time, anyway. It's been a while since I've done anything extensive with it.

In late 1999/early 2000, I decided I wanted a website so I figured I needed to learn HTML to do that. I found the HTML for Dummies Quick Reference Guide and took it from there.

For the record, if you ever need a good website to consult for html tips, try these...

Color Codes: http://html-color-codes.com/
Functions: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

Thanks for the links, Crystal. :)

I dream in HTML.

I do CSS on the fly. :D

CSS scares me. lol. I'd like to learn it but haven't taken the time to make heads or tails of it myself. I might have to break down and take a class.

Can I ask a question? I've had people submit stuff that was supposedly coded, but they didn't close tags. Who on earth is out there teaching that stuff? That is - they do the <p>My paragraph begins here, yadda yadda yadda. It should end any time now.

But then they don't use the </p> tag -- which is...non standard. Instead, they just use a new <p> tag with the next paragraph. What's UP with that, anyone?

For me, it was because I taught myself HTML and didn't realize the importance of closing some tags (other than the obvious with centering, italics, bold, etc.) until about a year or two after the fact. I put the HTML in on a customized blogger template and it looked...weird. That's when I figured out about closing </p> tags.

[SouthernFriedJulie]

I know HTML pretty well, but find that I forget without use. But, like my Spanish, I remember it when immersed. Can go into a code and usually fix it if needed.

Now, CSS I would love to learn. Unlike run of the mill HTML, I can't get it to stick in my brain. Like HTML I can go in ans fix nearly anything, but writing from scratch? Nope. Nuh uh.

[Crystal Lewis]

Tried CSS once. After an hour, I looked a lot like this guy... :rant: but there was a lot more cursing and throwing things involved...

[SouthernFriedJulie]

Tried CSS once. After an hour, I looked a lot like this guy... :rant: but there was a lot more cursing and throwing things involved...

I just get some liquor, relax, and kick the computer.

[Ken]

... wouldn't mind hooking up with someone who knows the lingo and exploring possibilities. Every Tom, Dick, and Harriet seems to be making money off the internet, so I wouldn't mind taking a stab at it myself.

(Inquires welcome.)

[benbradley]

I'm old-fashioned: I go to the Start menu, Run...and type cmd <enter>. From there I can type:
edlin mypage.htm
i
<HTML>
<title> and I can go to town writing webpages</title>
</HTML>
^z
e

And there it is.

[Medievalist]

I'm old-fashioned: I go to the Start menu, Run...and type cmd <enter>. From there I can type:
edlin mypage.htm
i
<HTML>
<title> and I can go to town writing webpages</title>
</HTML>
^z
e

And there it is.

Vi or emacs ?

[Crystal Lewis]

I just get some liquor, relax, and kick the computer.

Lol... now there's some good advice. :partyguy:

[benbradley]

Vi or emacs ?
Nothing so advanced - didn't you see me type edlin (http://www.computerhope.com/edlin.htm)?

[cuteshoes]

I know a lot of HTML. I actually taught myself how to do it back in when I was in 8th grade in like 1995 because I wanted to create a fan zine for my fave band, haha. I got really good at coding and Photoshop so while most kids slaved away at McDonald's after school, I started my own web design company in high school. I made a lot more money than minimum wage! Then in college I majored in computer graphics so we learned everything from HTML to computer animation (my day job). So I'd say I'm pretty comfortable.

Unfortunately, in college CSS was just starting to come out, so we didn't really learn too much of it. I've been picking it up more and more lately (I also have a minor in computer programming so I pick up this stuff easily). If there's something I get stuck with, I can usually trouble shoot and find a solution easily. But I can't help myself from resorting to the more archaic forms of coding when I should be using the new technology from the get go instead of in a pinch.

Can I ask a question? I've had people submit stuff that was supposedly coded, but they didn't close tags. Who on earth is out there teaching that stuff? That is - they do the <p>My paragraph begins here, yadda yadda yadda. It should end any time now.


But then they don't use the </p> tag -- which is...non standard. Instead, they just use a new <p> tag with the next paragraph. What's UP with that, anyone?

Like I said above, I learned CSS when it had just come about and was really new. We never learned to close the <p> tag. It's because in old HTML, you didn't need to close the <p> tag because the <p> tag was basically equivalent to a double space or a <br><br>. CSS changed its usage. Since I've been using CSS more, I've been closing my <p> tags because I understand the reason behind it and it solves a lot of problems to do so. But sometimes I still catch myself forgetting.

[cuteshoes]

Vi or emacs ?

Oh! emacs! I totally remember using that! wow...

[Rolling Thunder]

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike"

[Medievalist]

Like I said above, I learned CSS when it had just come about and was really new. We never learned to close the <p> tag. It's because in old HTML, you didn't need to close the <p> tag because the <p> tag was basically equivalent to a double space or a <br><br>. CSS changed its usage. Since I've been using CSS more, I've been closing my <p> tags because I understand the reason behind it and it solves a lot of problems to do so. But sometimes I still catch myself forgetting.

The </p> convention was part of the HTML 2.0 standard; it pre-dates CSS.

A lot of people never learned to write by hand and, more often than not, used Netscape or early versions of FrontPage, neither of which closed paragraph tags.

[Rolling Thunder]

While I've never had much interest in HTML coding I was once proficient with Calma DAL Fortran.

*sigh* I miss the good old days when you could be crushed by your computer. :D

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/AncientComps.jpg

[Lady Cat]

At one time I had a multi-page website that I created using html coding. It had graphics and animations, links and tables, it even had music embedded in it. I did all the coding myself because I found it easier to write in HTML than to learn to use Front Page or Dreamweaver.

Of course that was more than ten years ago. These days I'd be lucky to be able to write enough code to escape a wet paper bag. :D

[tjwriter]

We had to write up some stuff in HTML when I was taking an ebusiness college course. I found I really enjoyed it. We barely touched on CSS, so I'm not more than vaguely familiar with it.

Like others, I way out of touch because it's been awhile, but if I got back into it, I do okay with a little time.

[Team 2012]

HTML seems to be pretty much over.
You look at modern templates they are pretty much the barest skeleton of HTML with everything done with php and css.

[Medievalist]

HTML seems to be pretty much over.
You look at modern templates they are pretty much the barest skeleton of HTML with everything done with php and css.

CSS is built on top of HTML; it's nothing without HTML.

The PHP is just for back-end processing the database stuff; it's middleware.

[Priene]

Can I ask a question? I've had people submit stuff that was supposedly coded, but they didn't close tags. Who on earth is out there teaching that stuff? That is - they do the <p>My paragraph begins here, yadda yadda yadda. It should end any time now.


But then they don't use the </p> tag -- which is...non standard. Instead, they just use a new <p> tag with the next paragraph. What's UP with that, anyone?

If I remember correctly, my O'Reilly HTML book circa 1995 thought closing paragraph tags was unnecessary and fussy. If you've indicated the point where the new paragraph starts, there's no need to have another one at the end, as you can just put in another <p> to start the next one. I don't think there were self-closing tags back then.

There was also a philosophical issue. HTML was designed to be accessible to as many users as possible. Scripting competence levels were low, and browsers were designed to be as mistake-tolerant as possible. Insisting that all tags should be closed was looked on as rather geeky.

[JenNipps]

But at the same time, some of the programs that operate with HTML added have been upgraded. Sometimes the upgrades mean the HTML tags have to be closed now in order for it to look and work properly.

[Priene]

But at the same time, some of the programs that operate with HTML added have been upgraded. Sometimes the upgrades mean the HTML tags have to be closed now in order for it to look and work properly.

Absolutely. Not closing tags is a habit of unspeakable horror. It results in an unparseable mess which relies on benevolent browser-writers catching and handling your errors gracefully. But in the mid-nineties, it was at the very least tolerated. I have a bad feeling I myself didn't start closing my <p> tags until XML became big in the late 1990s. Once CSS became standard, you simply had to close the things just to define the scope for the stylesheet to operate on.

[Tirjasdyn]

is web designer. dreams in php, html, and css. forgets that java is a drink.

[SPMiller]

Web application development is pretty much what I do, so, uh, yeah, you could say I know a bit about HTML.

[Orientalist]

I'd be interested in some kind of CSS course. Or should php have higher priority?

I can fix things in CSS but, like someone said, it just doesn't seem to stick the way HTML did.

[samoht9]

I am going to school right now for web development so I am very comfortable with HTML and CSS. I have learned a bit of Javascript although I could do a lot better with that, and I am going to teach myself some PHP over the summer while I have some down time.

@Orientalist
I would say learn CSS over PHP if you are more interested in designing the lay out of your site, and being more fluent with that. PHP is server side and used to access databases and other bits of information. You don't really see it working, but it's good to know if you are running on your own. So it really depends on if you want more knowledge regarding your layout or you want to be able to change/fix the back end of your site more easily.

[Medievalist]

Think of CSS as a way of organizing HTML. It's a list of styles; you create the styles in CSS, and then your HTML page creates the styles based on the instructions in CSS.

[Cassiopeia]

I think the best way to learn it is to use it so I'm working on a new design for my site.