Example of a hot guy: Edward Cullen [SPOILERS]

[Yakamo]

A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

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Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.

[BlueLucario]

A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

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Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.
There was a thread already made, but it's not exactly helpful.

You might want to be careful. Let's hope this doesn't turn into a bashing thread.

[Achromasia]

Hm... well, I think that if you really look into Twilight, Edward is kind of controlling. Like, scary controlling. In real life, it would be creepy. In the book, it's romantic. I don't even know how that works out.

Otherwise, besides physical attributes, the way Edward wants to do nothing but take care of Bella is what does it for a lot of girls. Again, creepy in practice (watching her while she sleeps? Not letting her do things she wants to do because it's "not safe"?), but a lot of fangirls go gaga over that.

[unicornjam]

Look up "Byronic hero."

[LAWolf]

I think setting up the situation of wanting to protect his love interest at any cost even if other [sexual] desires are present. Having the guy say "no" I think seems more gentlemanly and mature (maybe hot?) to a lot of teen girls.

I'm just making suppositions here. I only read the first book. I thought Edward was a very moody character myself and not one I was attracted to.

From my observations in real life (I teach high school), students seem to go gaga over guys who wear the nicest/coolest clothes, have the coolest phone, have the coolest car, and love to tease and flirt. Usually very outgoing guys. Edward in this case was different since he was viewed as an outsider by the community.

[Achromasia]

Look up "Byronic hero." *nods head*

He was kind of the "bad guy" who wasn't really bad. Also, he was forbidden, in a sense.

[BlueLucario]

Look up "Byronic hero."

*nods head*

He was kind of the "bad guy" who wasn't really bad. Also, he was forbidden, in a sense.
I found this on Wikipedia.

The Byronic hero typically exhibits the following characteristics:[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero#cite_note-2)

high level of intelligence and perception
cunning and able to adapt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapt)
sophisticated and educated
self-critical and introspective
mysterious, magnetic and charismatic
struggling with integrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity)
power of seduction and sexual attraction
social and sexual dominance
emotional conflicts, bipolar tendencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder), or moodiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mood_disorder)
a distaste for social institutions and norms
being an exile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile), an outcast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast), or an outlaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw)
"dark" attributes not normally associated with a hero
disrespect of rank and privilege
a troubled past
cynicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynical)
arrogance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrogant)
self-destructive behavior

[Parametric]

I found this on Wikipedia.

I just recognised an awful lot of characters. :tongue

[BlueLucario]

I just recognised an awful lot of characters. :tongue
Me too. I even have a few cool characters in my story too.

[Cyia]

You have to decide if you want a physically attractive character or someone who's more than a pretty face. For the 1st one, you just describe the attributes that make him look good. For the 2nd it's about attitude and the way he carries himself. How does he react toward others and how does he move in his environment?

And no, vampires shouldn't sparkle in the sun. (Unless said sparkles are the 1st indications of spontaneous combustion) :D

[Phaeal]

See also Edward Rochester, hero of Jane Eyre, who was an inspiration for Edward Cullen, as I read Meyer's website. However, Mr. Rochester is no pretty boy, and Jane is no pushover, so I imagine it was Mr. Rochester's masterful personality that chiefly impressed Meyer.

In addition to Byronic hero, think bad boy. Some modern characters similar to Edward Cullen are Sirius Black, in the Harry Potter series, and both Angel and Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Though I'm not a manga or anime afficianado, I understand that these fangirl-beloved forms are also rife with Cullenesque pretty/dangerous boys.

Stephen King wrote an interesting article explaining the appeal of the Twilight series. Independently I had come to the same conclusion that it plays on the complex intertwining of sexual desires and sexual apprehensions to which adolescent girls are prey.

I wonder if a young male writer would be able to reproduce this effect. ;)

And yes, Meyer's vampires sparkle. I call it the My Little Pony Effect, or MLPE for short. My Little Ponies were also a commercial success. Maybe we should all consider breaking out the glitter. Why not sparkly werewolves and zombies? How about sparkly detectives? Sparkly CIA/FBI agents? Sparkly cowboys? And hey, you literary writers! Your characters don't have to be dull and drab -- you can let them sparkle and call it magical realism.

I'm off to the craft store now, cyas.

:e2fairy:

[Toothpaste]

I do think one of the things that makes Edward so attractive is that he is literally described as attractive. From the outset we know he is the most handsome boy at school, we are told he's got rock hard abs, and looks like he's carved out of marble. He's got eyes that change colour according to his mood. There is an awful lot of telling going on. I do believe all of these attributes could have been established by showing. Nonetheless, he is actually a perfect man aesthetically (which makes him far from the perfect man for Toothpaste).

And okay, you know how much I love AW? I learn new things every day. I'd heard referenced the Byronic hero many times, but never actually looked it up. Thanks to Blue I now know what he is. I have also learned that it looks like my protagonist of my YA is basically a Byronic hero. He isn't that moody though, but man is he arrogant. So yeah, good to know!

[RedScylla]

*Disclaimer: have not read Twilight*

A lot of what you want to do can be done by showing other characters' reactions to your character rather than telling. Readers will accept the reactions and behaviors of the characters around him as reality. My beta readers described my MC as "scary but charming." Why? Because that's how the other characters in the book react. People who know him well are scared when they encounter him and people who are just meeting him are charmed.

[MMcDonald64]

I found this on Wikipedia.

I do think one of the things that makes Edward so attractive is that he is literally described as attractive. From the outset we know he is the most handsome boy at school, we are told he's got rock hard abs, and looks like he's carved out of marble. He's got eyes that change colour according to his mood. There is an awful lot of telling going on. I do believe all of these attributes could have been established by showing. Nonetheless, he is actually a perfect man aesthetically (which makes him far from the perfect man for Toothpaste).

And okay, you know how much I love AW? I learn new things every day. I'd heard referenced the Byronic hero many times, but never actually looked it up. Thanks to Blue I now know what he is. I have also learned that it looks like my protagonist of my YA is basically a Byronic hero. He isn't that moody though, but man is he arrogant. So yeah, good to know!

When I read that list, I saw not a character in a book, but it was like someone took my sister's husband, and made a list based on him. :::shudder::: I guess I never went for that type of guy, and considering how controlling my sister's dh is, I pray that my daughter never does either. I will discourage her from reading Twilight. She's only 8, but she just asked the other day if she could see the movie. I don't want her idealizing a guy like that. Maybe I'll make her watch some first season episodes of Friday Night Lights which shows a realistic and sweet romance between the teens Julie and Matt. That is how it should be. When there was a fight between Matt's football team and the opposing team, Julie told him that she was worried about him during that. He just kind of stuttered and said, "When there's a fight, I just kind of stand in the back and yell stuff."

But, to get this back on topic, for the original poster, have you considered other types of teen heartthrobs? Like what about Troy from Highschool Musical? Girls love him, and I have to say as a parent, I'd much rather have my daughter drooling over him than a scary Edward Cullen.

There's also the 'bad' boy with the good heart, ala Tim Riggins of Friday Night Lights. He drinks too much, he's lazy in school and has girls falling all over him. He's one of those guys who wants to do better, but is afraid of rejection, so he screws things up before people can screw him over. He has this vulnerability that just makes girls go crazy for him. They all think that he just needs the love of a good girl/woman. :-) They want to save him, basically. (his parents both abandon him and his older brother does his best to raise him, but he's not the most stable guy in the world either.)

He's played by Taylor Kitsch, who will soon be the next big thing. He has some high profile movie roles coming out and females of all ages seem to find him attractive. Personally, he's not my type, but he does have rock hard abs, and he's very pretty, but in a guy way. http://www.iballer.com/malecelebs/kitsch_taylor/images/kitsch_taylor2_jpg.jpg

[The Lonely One]

I agree with toothpaste. Edward is almost like a blank slate, so I think readers don't even realize they're putting their own interpretation of him into the story. "Rock hard abs" is a cliche, meaningless, really, other than to say he's toned in that area. Different bodies have different shapes and curves, which it certainly doesn't get into. Carved out of marble, well, that's practically the same cliche. Just an overall view of "really in shape" and I suppose it also implies a shade of color, whether or not that was on purpose.

But beyond that this guy is just a walking, sparkling moodring. So what makes him "hot" is whatever the reader does to make sure he's hot within their imagination.

I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob.

Let's talk about this statement.

As for this one...

but she doesn't know what she likes about edward

A woman not knowing what they want in a man? How unusual! (yes, yes, send hate mail to...)

But seriously, let's go back to the first one. 'Teen heartthrob.' I know this is just a summary statement for the thread. But I think it's important not to think of characters in these oversimplifications, and get in the habit of thinking of them like dynamic human beings. Even the most minor character has fears for the writer to manipulate and yearnings for the writer to dangle before him.

So be sure you have your writer's toolbox full of all the right wrenches and ratchets, with the right attachments and bring a flashlight so you can work into the night. The more you know about your world and characters, the more possibilities present themselves.

[The Lonely One]

Does anyone else think James Bond when they read the Byonic Hero list?

[caitysdad]

i've always used dialogue to pass along types, like if someone is a pretty boy or certain characteristics that i've envisioned. I don't like giving too much because I want readers to use their imaginations.

You don't have to describe how good looking someone is like Edward Cullen, but if you have a couple of characters talk about it then the reader's imagination will do the rest for you.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

There are ways to make a guy protective without making him a control freak stalker-type. For example, in Twilight when Edward is literally dragging Bella to his car because he's 'concerned' (quotes because I wasn't buying his concern) it probably would have been more appealing if he wasn't so 'you're coming home with me and that's the end of it'. More gentle, more along the lines of 'look, I'm just concerned and I want to make sure for myself you get home safely'. Really illustrate some sort of affection or compassion towards this girl he supposedly likes. Take away the feelings/emotions and it's just plain out controlling behaviour. A reader should be able to see he actually gives a damn about her as a person, and not as an object.

[The Lonely One]

There are ways to make a guy protective without making him a control freak stalker-type. For example, in Twilight when Edward is literally dragging Bella to his car because he's 'concerned' (quotes because I wasn't buying his concern) it probably would have been more appealing if he wasn't so 'you're coming home with me and that's the end of it'. More gentle, more along the lines of 'look, I'm just concerned and I want to make sure for myself you get home safely'. Really illustrate some sort of affection or compassion towards this girl he supposedly likes. Take away the feelings/emotions and it's just plain out controlling behaviour. A reader should be able to see he actually gives a damn about her as a person, and not as an object.

I agree, to a certain degree. I'm not a fan of the debut novel, but I will say it's kind of hard to picture Edward not being controlling, overprotective of his mate (potential food) and being violent at times. He's essentially an animal, not a knight in shining armor. And dare I say that's one thing Meyer did recognize when writing him, I think. He's so much on the 'good' side, however, that it's hard to tell he's not just a boy being abusive.

I think once you remove the "he's a good boy" concept and political correctness, his actions become not morally right but right for the character.

[seun]

A lot of writers might benefit from coming up with their own characters and finding out what makes them interesting and attractive (to the reader and the other characters) rather than focusing on oh so dreamy vampires.

[The Lonely One]

A lot of writers might benefit from coming up with their own characters and finding out what makes them interesting and attractive (to the reader and the other characters) rather than focusing on oh so dreamy vampires.

Here here.

[Red_Dahlia]

It was really interesting to read the character traits of the Byronic hero. As I was going down the list I kept thinking that it sounded exactly like one of my characters, which might explain why I sometimes have the strange desire to punch him in the face. He does make an excellent politictian, though.

As far as what makes characters like Edward so fangirlworthy, I think LAWolf got it right. Many young girls fantasize about a man who will protect them, love them unconditionally, and see them as the very reason for their existence.

[Rushie]

Independently I had come to the same conclusion that it plays on the complex intertwining of sexual desires and sexual apprehensions to which adolescent girls are prey.

I wonder if a young male writer would be able to reproduce this effect. ;)



This is the exact same conclusion I've come to. I haven't read Twilight but as someone who liked vampires myself as a girl I can confirm that the attraction has everything to do with romantic/sexual awakenings. But your sister was probably telling the truth when she said she doesn't know what she likes about him. For young men, I imagine sexual awakening is obvious to them (look up porn on the internet??) but for girls it is more indirect and subconscious, and much more tied up with romance and behavior than with physical attributes. Yeah the guy has to be good looking, but that alone isn't enough.

Girls love guys who are powerful, mentally and physically capable of even killing someone. BUT they are repelled by men who kill for no reason or for bad reasons. The vampire kills because he needs blood to survive. That's a good reason. Or if it's the type who lives off of rats and bagged blood from the blood bank, then he always is using self control, because drinking directly from a human is preferable. Or if he drinks but pulls away before the human dies, he always must make himself do it, it's difficult. This is self control, another kind of power that girls adore. The vampire can't lose.

And the vampire is damaged. Girls love men who are damaged (but not TOO damaged). There was a study I read about - can't remember the details - but it was about some bird, maybe the peacock. Let's say it was the peacock. Everyone knows the bigger and better the male peacock feathers the more the female likes him. This study discovered that if given the choice between a male with perfect feathers and a male with slightly damaged feathers, the female will choose the damaged one. Why? Because it is proof that the male was able to survive a fight. Females are not attracted to men who have not been tested. This also explains why so many cultures have a painful or challenging male coming of age ritual. The vampire has been tested to the max... he has had to die!

And all of this is safely secured in the world of fantasy. The girl can obsess all she wants with no fear that a real vampire will actually come bite her neck no matter how much she thinks she wants it because she doesn't really want it. Just as you say, young girls are apprehensive; unlike males, they do not have an instinct to copulate in the same way a male does. Testosterone is the "I want it, I need it" hormone, not estrogen, and girls have minuscule amounts of testosterone compared to boys. For girls, sex is all tied up with romance and emotion. The vampire fictions provide buckets of drama, conflict and emotion, giving a girl a kind of caricature way of processing the need for emotional connection before giving herself physically to a man.

Can a guy write this? I'm sure he can if he has enough insight. I think it's rare for young people to fully understand the minds of the opposite gender, but not impossible. More often it probably takes a few years of human observation and experience to gain you the perspective. The problem with young men is that they're in the middle of dealing with young girls right now - their take on it is colored by their own tensions. For example, a young guy might misinterpret a smile from a girl as a sexual come-on, when in reality a girl smiles at a guy for other reasons. Maybe she is just being polite. If it is a flirtatious, interested smile, it might mean she wants to get to know you, just go on a date. So if a guy writes vampire fiction, he can't just have his female MC smile at a vampire, then the vamp grabs her and drains her blood. That won't thrill a girl. He needs to give the MC that emotional connection first. And pulling off a good fictive emotional connection that isn't just melodramatic is a whole nother subject.......

[Parametric]

Does anyone else think James Bond when they read the Byonic Hero list?

I thought of Jace Wayland from Cassandra Cla(i)re's Mortal Instruments. Matches him to a t.

[witchunter88]

What makes Edward Cullen hot is that he represents the brooding untouchable hunk a lot of girls fantasize about. He literally sweeps Bella off of her feet, from his paralyzing beauty to his inhumane strength. Like it or not, a lot of girls love the masculine and dominant role that Edward plays in the relationship.

I don't see the "abuse" people are saying is in the relationship after reading the series either. Edward has never hit Bella (though she inadvertently fractured her hand after hitting him), and when they did consummate he didn't flatten her like a pancake, a fear he had expressed in the beginning. He actually shows remarkable gentlemanly restraint with her. He obviously wants to ravish her, but that's what makes the series so delicious. The sexual tension between them can be cut by a knife. Meyer teases the reader and amplifies the relationship by denying the characters any more than cuddling and kisses, even though they obviously want to take it further.

Edward is the ideal Byronic Hero, so I would create a character in that mold if you want to try and mimic the Edward effect.

[Memnon624]

Does anyone else think James Bond when they read the Byonic Hero list?

My first thought was of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane . . .

[Birol]

There was a thread already made, but it's not exactly helpful.

You might want to be careful. Let's hope this doesn't turn into a bashing thread.

Blue, Shweta and I will do the moderating in the Novels.

[BlueLucario]

Blue, Shweta and I will do the moderating in the Novels.
Sorry.

Carry on.

[scarletpeaches]

I don't think she was moderating, Birol. It was just a member voicing concern given the history of Twilight threads on AW, of which we're all aware.

[Bukarella]

Why Edward appeals to so many?

* He's never been in love until he met Bella. :LilLove:
* Other girls want him badly, yet he's not interested. :tongue
* He smells good. ;)
* He's dangerous. :guns:
* He has a sad story to tell that roughed him up. :e2bummed:
* He wants her very badly, but he insists on delaying sex out of concern for her. :e2kissy:

[BlueLucario]

I wish I never looked up Byronic characters. I don't want my characters to be defined by a label.

However, I could use a character like Edward. It's something about him that intrigues me.

[Cyia]

I don't see the "abuse" people are saying is in the relationship after reading the series either. Edward has never hit Bella (though she inadvertently fractured her hand after hitting him), and when they did consummate he didn't flatten her like a pancake, a fear he had expressed in the beginning. He actually shows remarkable gentlemanly restraint with her.


All abuse isn't physical. Emotional and mental abuse can be horribly damaging to a person's mind, and most of the abuse credited to Edward's character is this kind. From the stalking to the controlling to the removal of her ability and right to make her own decisions concerning her own life.


It might be worth taking a look at the person "Byronic" refers to. Lord Byron wasn't exactly stellar boyfriend material - a man described as "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" by those who knew him - but possibly makes for a good blood-sucker template. This is the same man who was the host at that somewhat famous gathering that spawned not only Frankenstein, but Lord Ruthven. Ruthven, if you're unfamilar with the name was part of the inspiration for Count Dracula, and a blatant satire of Byron by a man familiar with him and his lifestyle -- the first vampire tale that portrayed them as beautiful, hypnotic, aristocratic, lescvious, lecherous, and the defilers of purity.

He was a carouser and a womanizer with a horrible temper (mood swings) who was self-destructive to the point of self-impsed exile.

Byron at best had a "dark streak", and at worst was insane. One of the "legends" about his life involves the death of Mary Shelley's husband, Percy - who drowned. (Mind you, it's legend, but it's part of the public perception about his life) He set the man's body on fire, then swam out to watch it burn. (he did actually do the cremation, but it was out of fear of disease being carried into town on a dead body.) However, it is known that his heart was taken from the ashes and given to his wife in a box... that she kept in her desk for the rest of her life.

So if you're wanting to emulate the ulitmate dangerous or unhealthy relationship, Byron's a good pattern to follow; he was definitely a badboy. If you want a "good" guy, not so much.

[maestrowork]

I found this on Wikipedia.

Interesting. I guess I'm writing one and didn't know what it was.

ETA: Not having read the books, I have no idea. And since I'm not a girl, I don't know what makes a guy hot either. But my guess is that in the books, he came off as romantic and loyal. In real life, such a controlling man would be difficult to live with, unless someone needs the extra security and attention and wouldn't mind being watched all the time. :) But in fiction, such devotion makes women swoon.

That's not to say only such a character can be described as "hot." People like all kinds of heroes. But "bad boys" (or heroes with a dark side) tends to be very popular. I've heard women describing them as "they're so in need of TLC that I'd love to feed him soup."

[Phaeal]

I don't think she was moderating, Birol. It was just a member voicing concern given the history of Twilight threads on AW, of which we're all aware.

Ditto. Twilight does take more than its share of knocks, as poor Blue has discovered.

[BlueLucario]

Interesting. I guess I'm writing one and didn't know what it was.
Heh, and I didn't WANT to know. :)

I'm just going to sit here and observe the discussion. I also carry the same questions the OP does.

[RavenCorinnCarluk]

Another aspect of what a girl wants: they want to fix a man. Or make him a better person. "Oh, he's the really bad scary boy, but he will change for me." They want to be that one person who actually touches the monster's heart, and makes him into something kind and gentle.

And yet, if they really could take the monster out of the man, they wouldn't be happy with the result.

[Bukarella]

Another aspect of what a girl wants: they want to fix a man. Or make him a better person. "

I'm not arguing against the idea in general, but in this case, I don't think Bella wanted to fix Edward, you know?

[maestrowork]

I'm not arguing against the idea in general, but in this case, I don't think Bella wanted to fix Edward, you know?

But maybe the readers do.

Again, I have readers who told me they would like to fix my protagonist, feed him soup, etc.

[witchunter88]

All abuse isn't physical. Emotional and mental abuse can be horribly damaging to a person's mind, and most of the abuse credited to Edward's character is this kind. From the stalking to the controlling to the removal of her ability and right to make her own decisions concerning her own life.

I don't find Bella emotionally or mentally abused at all. How so? Edward never belittled her constantly like emotional abusers do, nor does he maliciously manipulate her to do something she doesn't want. On the contrary, he's been very sacrificial for her sake. She asks him to make her a vampire and by doing this, he wouldn't have to restrain himself so much when she's near. Instead he refuses, knowing that this would mean sacrificing a lot of things in her current life.

I also find most of the "nice guys" to be boring in fiction. Being a bad boy does not always necessitate an unhealthy relationship either.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

ETA: Not having read the books, I have no idea. And since I'm not a girl, I don't know what makes a guy hot either. But my guess is that in the books, he came off as romantic and loyal. In real life, such a controlling man would be difficult to live with, unless someone needs the extra security and attention and wouldn't mind being watched all the time. :) But in fiction, such devotion makes women swoon.

I guess it might just come to difference of opinion or personal preference. I'm reading the books, and so far Edward doesn't strike me as the romantic type. Aside from saving Bella that first time, nothing he's done so far (to me) says romantic so much as it says controlling. His need to always be around her seemed more on the side of possessiveness, not loyalty. And he's always mentioning how it's such a big mistake that he's with her and he really should be staying away from her but chooses not to. In a way I can see how that could be romantic, but he says it so often and he seldom expresses his affections that it makes me wonder why he's bothering. In some instances, he lacks the same self-confidence Bella does. Even as a teen, this kind of a character wouldn't have interested me.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I don't find Bella emotionally or mentally abused at all. How so? Edward never belittled her constantly like emotional abusers do, nor does he maliciously manipulate her to do something she doesn't want. On the contrary, he's been very sacrificial for her sake. She asks him to make her a vampire and by doing this, he wouldn't have to restrain himself so much when she's near. Instead he refuses, knowing that this would mean sacrificing a lot of things in her current life.

I also find most of the "nice guys" to be boring in fiction. Being a bad boy does not always necessitate an unhealthy relationship either.

Controlling is a form of abuse. When a guy literally drags you to his car with the notion of 'I'm taking you home and if you try to run to your car I'll just drag you back' isn't exactly romantic. There have been a few instances of this kind of do what I tell you attitude that, were Edward not a vampire, people would be screaming against. I get that he's a vampire and thus a little different, but I feel with these books it's kind of used to excuse that kind of behaviour.

[witchunter88]

I wish I never looked up Byronic characters. I don't want my characters to be defined by a label.
.

Everything out today is a derivative of past works, byronic characters are clearly defined because they are so popular, it doesn't mean they are cheapened in any way.

[BlueLucario]

Everything out today is a derivative of past works, byronic characters are clearly defined because they are so popular, it doesn't mean they are cheapened in any way.
Some characters I couldn't care less if they're labels. I consider my characters as people I'd like to know about. If I knew there was a label to it, it would ruin my moment.

[witchunter88]

Controlling is a form of abuse. When a guy literally drags you to his car with the notion of 'I'm taking you home and if you try to run to your car I'll just drag you back' isn't exactly romantic. There have been a few instances of this kind of do what I tell you attitude that, were Edward not a vampire, people would be screaming against. I get that he's a vampire and thus a little different, but I feel with these books it's kind of used to excuse that kind of behaviour.

Abuse is cruelly mistreating someone, which leads to physical and/or mental injuries. Pulling someone into a car for their own good is not that.

I find the abuse angle unwarranted. I don't remember this scene particularly, but from what your saying, I dont see it as something on the abusive level.

[Rushie]

That does it. I have a copy of this book, now I'm gonna have to read it and see which of you is right.

[maestrowork]

Some characters I couldn't care less if they're labels. I consider my characters as people I'd like to know about. If I knew there was a label to it, it would ruin my moment.


These are not labels, just archetypes or categories. I wouldn't worry about it. Because if you want, everything can be labeled. It shouldn't matter. Just write your characters the way they are. In fact, archetypes can be your friend, because they make your characters accessible.

[Cyia]

Abuse is cruelly mistreating someone, which leads to physical and/or mental injuries. Pulling someone into a car for their own good is not that.

I find the abuse angle unwarranted. I don't remember this scene particularly, but from what your saying, I dont see it as something on the abusive level.

Not always. Many abusers suffer the delusion that their actions are for the abused's own good. Such as bribing one's sister to hold a girlfriend hostage against her will.

Even in the case of her turning, Bella wanted it, Edward didn't, so he took every step he could think of to keep it from happening - had Carlisle not cut the legs out from under him, she never would have been turned, want it or not.

And in Breaking Dawn, Edward had every intention (with Carlisle's help) of forcing an abortion on Bella. Why do you think she called Rosalie? She found the one person who would literally stand between her and Edward no matter what because of the baby. She had to find herself a bodyguard to protect her right to have a child.

Likewise with their wedding night, Carlisle recommended drugging her because of "the pain". Serial abusers will always spin the abuse to say the person either caused it, contributed or that it was actually helping.

Isolating someone from their friends so that the abuser is the center of their universe is another GIANT red flag.

Anytime the 1st inclination upon separation is suicide, that's not a healthy relationship.

[kikilynn]

Most girls like a a bad boy that is willing to risk anything for them. Looking back at my relationships as a teenager, I went for boys that let me walk all over them. They fell hopelessly for me, and let me take charge. In reality that sucks. I broke up with them because they couldn't stand up for themselves where I was concerned. I think girls like bad boys who can be in control but have a damsel in distress complex, always wanting to save them.

[The Lonely One]

But Edward is a bloodsucking monster who hunts animals with his bare hands and feasts on their blood, lurks in the dark and yearns to suck the blood right out of Bella's annoying little butt.

How is a little abuse unwarranted? Bella pushed their relationship when Ed first told her to stay the hell away. The way I see it, she's earned whatever she got after that.

HE IS A FREAKING VAMPIRE.

End of rant :)

[Fade]

First of all, on the abusive matter, I pretty much agree with Cyia. Edward was controlling.

A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

--------------
Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.

I don't think Stephenie Meyer created Edward saying "Millions of girls will drool over this guy who only exists on paper." I mean, he was a romantic lead, he was supposed to be romantic. But don't create him with "I want him to be just like Edward" view of mind, because a) that will not happen 99.9 percent of the time, and b) you should probably just focus on making your character unique, not an Edward rip off.

[witchunter88]

Not always. Many abusers suffer the delusion that their actions are for the abused's own good. Such as bribing one's sister to hold a girlfriend hostage against her will.

Edward has never taken Bella hostage, not even in the slightest in the novel. If it was something as extreme as Edward physically barring Bella from her family, then maybe I'd get the comparison.

Even in the case of her turning, Bella wanted it, Edward didn't, so he took every step he could think of to keep it from happening - had Carlisle not cut the legs out from under him, she never would have been turned, want it or not.

Edward cared more for her than himself and wanted her to live normally, that's why he did not turn her.

It was only after a vampire baby tore through her body and at the brink of death did Edward SAVE HER LIFE by turning her.

And in Breaking Dawn, Edward had every intention (with Carlisle's help) of forcing an abortion on Bella. Why do you think she called Rosalie? She found the one person who would literally stand between her and Edward no matter what because of the baby. She had to find herself a bodyguard to protect her right to have a child.

Edward feared for Bella's sake because all of the vampire babies before her were pure vampire. They were frozen in a child like state of mind and ate ravenously, unheeding the necessity of hiding like the adult vampires. If Bella had birthed a full vampire baby, it would have probably killed her (her half vamp baby did almost kill her, and EDWARD SAVED HER) since she was mortal and full of blood.

He was trying to protect her life, which supersedes everything else.

Likewise with their wedding night, Carlisle recommended drugging her because of "the pain". Serial abusers will always spin the abuse to say the person either caused it, contributed or that it was actually helping.

Being described as hard like marble, maybe it would be wise to take something that would help ease the pain of the whole experience.

Keep in mind, Bella WANTED to consummate their relationshiop, he wasn't the one forcing her to have sex. Of course people forget that...

Isolating someone from their friends so that the abuser is the center of their universe is another GIANT red flag.

That's why he didn't want to turn her into a vampire in the first place, because she'd be a newborn and have to leave her friends and family behind in case she attacked them. When has Edward ever constrained her from her family?

Anytime the 1st inclination upon separation is suicide, that's not a healthy relationship.

She didn't want to commit suicide. She wanted to be near danger so she could see Edward in her mind.

This is of her own doing, an externality that Edward had not anticipated.

[witchunter88]

But Edward is a bloodsucking monster who hunts animals with his bare hands and feasts on their blood, lurks in the dark and yearns to suck the blood right out of Bella's annoying little butt.

How is a little abuse unwarranted? Bella pushed their relationship when Ed first told her to stay the hell away. The way I see it, she's earned whatever she got after that.

HE IS A FREAKING VAMPIRE.

End of rant :)

ROFLMFAO. :roll:

[Fade]

That's why he didn't want to turn her into a vampire in the first place, because she'd be a newborn and have to leave her friends and family behind in case she attacked them. When has Edward ever constrained her from her family?

In Twilight, he didn't care if James got to Charlie and killed him; he just dragged her out of there. In Eclipse, when he went away to hunt, he didn't let her stay with Charlie while he did; he had his sister keep her in his house. Why couldn't she have stayed with her dad?

[witchunter88]

In Twilight, he didn't care if James got to Charlie and killed him; he just dragged her out of there. In Eclipse, when he went away to hunt, he didn't let her stay with Charlie while he did; he had his sister keep her in his house. Why couldn't she have stayed with her dad?

Actually if he had left Bella with Charlie, her father would have most certainly been killed.

Remember, James was tracking BELLA'S SCENT. NOT Charlie's. If Bella stayed with Charlie, he would have been killed.

In Eclipse, Victoria was out for Bella's blood, so of course he didn't leave her with her father, they'd both have been dead.

[Fade]

Actually if he had left Bella with Charlie, her father would have most certainly been killed.

Remember, James was tracking BELLA'S SCENT. NOT Charlie's. If Bella stayed with Charlie, he would have been killed.

In Eclipse, Victoria was out for Bella's blood, so of course he didn't leave her with her father, they'd both have been dead.

I just meant to point out his blatant disregard for pretty much any other human lives but hers. Maybe some people find that romantic. :Shrug:

And in Eclipse, it wasn't like the vampires and werewolves didn't guard her house while she slept when he was there. I'm pretty sure it was just to keep her from the weres.

[witchunter88]

I just meant to point out his blatant disregard for pretty much any other human lives but hers. Maybe some people find that romantic. :Shrug:

How did he disregard her father's life? That's why he was taking Bella, and going after James. So they both wouldn't be killed.

And in Eclipse, it wasn't like the vampires and werewolves didn't guard her house while she slept when he was there. I'm pretty sure it was just to keep her from the weres.

A vampire could get past a werewolf fast enough to snap her neck. And if Victoria found out that Charlie was her father she'd have kidnapped him and/or killed him.

[Fade]

How did he disregard her father's life? That's why he was taking Bella, and going after James. So they both wouldn't be killed.

Disregard--he just didn't care. If Charlie died, too bad, so sad, but at least Bella was safe.

Now, this isn't answering the OPs question, so I'll back out and let you argue this with someone else.

[witchunter88]

Disregard--he just didn't care. If Charlie died, too bad, so sad, but at least Bella was safe.

You're blaming him for the only sane choice possible (taking Bella away from James and James away from her father). Okay that makes total sense. :Shrug:

[Cyia]

Edward has never taken Bella hostage, not even in the slightest in the novel. If it was something as extreme as Edward physically barring Bella from her family, then maybe I'd get the comparison.

Sure he did, via Alice, and he paid for the kidnapping with car.


Edward cared more for her than himself and wanted her to live normally, that's why he did not turn her.


It was only after a vampire baby tore through her body and at the brink of death did Edward SAVE HER LIFE by turning her.


Doesn't matter. "I love her" is a common excuse for abuse. He doesn't get to chose for her what's normal and what's not. Even Carlisle recognized this, which is why he agreed to turn her himself if Edward kept saying no.


(the one line of Bella's - I was 18 and Edward never would be - is enough to tell you how much she didn't want to stay human. She'd made up her mind, vampire was normal to her. Edward supplanted her will with his, and he had no right to do so.

Edward feared for Bella's sake because all of the vampire babies before her were pure vampire. They were frozen in a child like state of mind and ate ravenously, unheeding the necessity of hiding like the adult vampires. If Bella had birthed a full vampire baby, it would have probably killed her (her half vamp baby did almost kill her, and EDWARD SAVED HER) since she was mortal and full of blood.

Read it again.

Until Nessie, no one had ever birthed a vampire child that they knew of, and the one they found wasn't crazed. It was the (tacked on) Immortal Children that were forbidden to make. Mortal children turned as children who could never age or develop. They didn't know what Nessie was because it wasn't supposed to be possible for a mortal woman to bear a vampire's child.

He was trying to protect her life, which supersedes everything else.

Not even close. Her choice supersedes everything else. If that choice is to die for the life of her baby, so be it. He doesn't get a vote.

Being described as hard like marble, maybe it would be wise to take something that would help ease the pain of the whole experience.

Keep in mind, Bella WANTED to consummate their relationshiop, he wasn't the one forcing her to have sex. Of course people forget that...

Had she asked for the drugs, fine, but she didn't. Ed and Carlisle cooked the scheme up themselves without her knowledge or consent. Had he gone through with it and Bella been drugged out of her mind - for her own good, mind you - she wouldn't have been able to say no had she changed her mind if she wasn't able to physically handle it. Nor would she be able to convey something was wrong had he actually done damage. Ed could have found himself a widower because she wouldn't have been able to tell him to stop.

Unannounced drugs + sex = rape. No exceptions.

That's why he didn't want to turn her into a vampire in the first place, because she'd be a newborn and have to leave her friends and family behind in case she attacked them. When has Edward ever constrained her from her family?

He was willing to cut Charlie loose at the drop of a hat. Then there are the mentions of how she became distant from her friends in their time together. And of course her whole relationship with Jacob who she'd known since she was a toddler...

She didn't want to commit suicide. She wanted to be near danger so she could see Edward in her mind.

Ed was the suicidal one, not Bella. When removed from their obsession, abusers turn violent - toward either themselves or others.

This is of her own doing, an externality that Edward had not anticipated.

And he never even acknowledges the fact that had he just turned her at 17 like she asked, they all would have been a moot point. He caused the problems she had because he kept trying to control the flow of her life. Because he was such a control freak, she was in danger, her friends were in danger, her father was in danger, the whole town of Forks... but none of that mattered because he got what he wanted.

[Birol]

The topic of discussion is what makes some male characters appealing to female readers. This is not a book discussion group about the mores of the characters in Twilight.

[maestrowork]

The topic of discussion is what makes some male characters appealing to female readers. This is not a book discussion group about the mores of the characters in Twilight.

It is interesting how these topics tend to turn into the "Twilight rocks/Twilight sucks" debate...

I wish my books would some day evoke such passion!

[Cyia]

The topic of discussion is what makes some male characters appealing to female readers. This is not a book discussion group about the mores of the characters in Twilight.

The OP specifically asked about, and started the thread about, Edward Cullen. He wants to know what makes the character tick, and that character has some traits that certain readers find appealing while others find appalling


A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

--------------
Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.

[Birol]

The OP specifically asked about, and started the thread about, Edward Cullen. He wants to know what makes the character tick, and that character has some traits that certain readers find appealing while others find appalling

So are you suggesting I should just close the thread now rather than considering splitting out the discussion?

[Cyia]

So are you suggesting I should just close the thread now rather than considering splitting out the discussion?

I'm saying the answers given all pertain to the opening post about the traits of that specific character.

[witchunter88]

Sure he did, via Alice, and he paid for the kidnapping with car.

Saving someone's life isn't kidnapping, especially if it's people that person knows.

Doesn't matter. "I love her" is a common excuse for abuse. He doesn't get to chose for her what's normal and what's not. Even Carlisle recognized this, which is why he agreed to turn her himself if Edward kept saying no.

LOL, how is him refusing her the painful process of immortality ABUSE? And I think it's obvious that being a vampire ISN'T normal. It's common sense that it'd be a huge change for her, so he's being wise by not pushing her to be a vampire.

You can't expect Bella to tell Edward what to do and he HAS to obey also. It doesn't work that way. Especially if it's a decision so life altering.

Read it again.

Until Nessie, no one had ever birthed a vampire child that they knew of, and the one they found wasn't crazed. It was the (tacked on) Immortal Children that were forbidden to make. Mortal children turned as children who could never age or develop. They didn't know what Nessie was because it wasn't supposed to be possible for a mortal woman to bear a vampire's child.

The immortal children were the pure vampires I alluded to. And these children were always hungry for blood, with no inhibitions. So Edward was right in fearing of the monster Bella would birth.


Not even close. Her choice supersedes everything else. If that choice is to die for the life of her baby, so be it. He doesn't get a vote.

If you're in a relationship with someone and you love one another, you do get and deserve a say.

He also did not prevent her from actual childbirth. She DID have Renesme.So that throws that abuse theory out.


Unannounced drugs + sex = rape. No exceptions.

Actually no it's not. There are a lot of people who take drugs, and have deliberate sex with someone.

And Bella CLEARLY wanted to have sex long before this.

He was willing to cut Charlie loose at the drop of a hat. Then there are the mentions of how she became distant from her friends in their time together. And of course her whole relationship with Jacob who she'd known since she was a toddler...

I don't remember finding anything that intimated Edward wanting to cut Charlie loose. Where does it say that in the story? That's pure speculation. Becoming distant to her friends is not a sure sign of abuse. Everyone in some point in their lives becomes distant. Also she hadn't seen Jacob for years, and only reacquainted with him after moving to Forks.

Ed was the suicidal one, not Bella. When removed from their obsession, abusers turn violent - toward either themselves or others.

He was suicidal because he thought Bella was dead. Not because he was an abuser.

-----

Oh - just read Birol's post. I do think this debate pertains to the topic though.

[Birol]

I'm saying the answers given all pertain to the opening post about the traits of that specific character.

Well, I'm at the point of considering splitting posts out because they've gone from discussing appealing vs. appalling traits to whether or not he was an abuser. The other option is to close the thread before it devolves much further as Twilight threads tend to do.

In case you're missing it, this is a warning. Kthxbai.

[The Lonely One]

Well there have certainly been studies done on why dangerous figures are attractive, why folks stay in abusive relationships, etc.

Though maybe the ultimate message is: make your own character, not a Cullen.

[BlueLucario]

Well, I'm at the point of considering splitting posts out because they've gone from discussing appealing vs. appalling traits to whether or not he was an abuser. The other option is to close the thread before it devolves much further as Twilight threads tend to do.

In case you're missing it, this is a warning. Kthxbai.
Please don't lock it. That's all I ask of you Birol. I'm just as much interested in this thread as anyone else. Please don't take this away.

It was the OP that started this Twilight thread. Perhaps that was what he intended.

[BlueLucario]

It is interesting how these topics tend to turn into the "Twilight rocks/Twilight sucks" debate...

I wish my books would some day evoke such passion!
Mine too! :)

I have a feeling my book will be discussed on this forum one day. It gives me the chills just thinking about it.

[Toothpaste]

OP: If you want to create the good badguy, that's cool. But remember, there are people like me who love sweet characters like Remus Lupin from Harry Potter and we like to read too!

[Rarri]

I'm totalling missing the point on rape here, but nevermind...

One possibility for Edward being appealing to some girls is that he is 'old fashioned' and doesn't jump straight into bed with Bella, i think seeing a relationship where sex isn't pushed (by the male party, certainly) has an appeal for being something 'different' and as such appeals.

I personally don't think Edward was abusive, i think behaviours can be construed in many different ways; in the context of Twilight and fantasy elements, the behaviour seemed reasonable and logical. Not abusive in the slightest.

As for the suicidal thing being part of an abusive relationship, i think that's a point that needs to be treated carefully. Yes, there are abusive partners who threaten suicide if a partner leaves but knowing that a person may attempt suicide at the end of a relationship can be 'reasonable' behaviour depending on the person. Also, something Meyer reiterates is that Bella and Edward were soul mates, true loves and so - Romeo and Juliet style - Edward can't bear the thought of living if Bella were to die but lived, depressed, when he left her 'for her own good' at the start of New Moon.

I hope that makes sense, i'm having an awful night, so understand if things are some what incomprehensible.

On a final note, i wouldn't stop my son reading Twilight (when he's old enough!) and if we had a daughter, i wouldn't stop her reading it either; if that were the case, i'd fear for them reading anything that might have a remotely negative influence. The characters may not be perfect, some may see characters as abusive but surely that should be a point for discussion, not censorship.

[BlueLucario]

OP: If you want to create the good badguy, that's cool. But remember, there are people like me who love sweet characters like Remus Lupin from Harry Potter and we like to read too!
Hey, I like you.

I don't know what type of character I like. Like Maestro said, some people like characters suffering enough for us to give them soup. I don't know why, but I rarely ever see Byronic characters period, but it interests me more than any other character.

[scarletpeaches]

To get back on topic - yes, scarletpeaches getting back on topic! - here are my thoughts.

A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)
Nor me, and I'm female. Although I have to say I would, like, totes do rpattz, who plays him in the movie.

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

--------------
Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.

You can't convince the reader this character is a pretty boy. They're not characters in the story. All you can do is convince them the other characters around this guy fancy him. How? Don't pull a Stephenie Meyer and keep banging on about how sexy he is. This is telling, not showing.

Instead, concentrate on describing how other people in your story react to this guy. Describe their responses and how they feel about him.

Beyond that it's up to your readers how they feel about your book. You can't dictate what goes on in their heads - all you can do is take what's in your head and do your best to get it onto the page.

[Cyia]

Gah, Scarlet sneaks in while I'm pasting and makes sense...


You can't convince the reader this character is a pretty boy. They're not characters in the story. All you can do is convince them the other characters around this guy fancy him. How? Don't pull a Stephenie Meyer and keep banging on about how sexy he is. This is telling, not showing.

Please, listen to this. Looks =/= sexy. Attitude = sexy.

Instead, concentrate on describing how other people in your story react to this guy. Describe their responses and how they feel about him.

Also true more than half of sexy is in the minds of others. Sexy in the mind of your character = arrogance and that's a whole different thing.



And I'll post this so it can go along for the possible thread split because it was too much typing to toss:

The thing about this is, if you want to classify Edward as a Byronic hero, he HAS to have that dark and controlling streak. It goes with the territory.

BH are moody. They're angry. They're intense. They're gothic. They're broody. They're loners. It's part of the mystique, like being entranced by a cobra. Sure, it can kill you, but it's beautiful and exotic and hypnotic. They focus totally on their prey until the prey convinces itself they want nothing more than to be there staring back at the thing about to kill them.

That's the thrill of the "bad boy". They have a sign hanging over them that says "danger, don't touch", but at the same time, they're addictive. They're heroin. Especially to a teenager.

The teenage mind tends to equate that with harmless rebellion, even if it's anything but.

(and this is not a dig against Twilight. I liked Twilight's story, but there are some scary elements to consider when you have someone like the OP saying that his sister claims her boyfriend could never "measure up")

When you're crafting a character, for young readers especially, I think you need to consider whether or not your "hero" is displaying traits that on anyone else could be considered criminal. How is that an attractive guy?

Kidnapping is kidnapping, even if you know the person - Most kidnappings are between family members. They're still wrong. And the fact that a character has to bribe someone to carry out their wishes says he - and they - know it's wrong.


Any time a person's free will is removed from their control, it's abuse.

Normal is a matter of perspective, and in the context of a vampire story, there is a level of normalcy to it as well. Edward's normal state is vampire. Bella chose to have that be hers as well.

These kinds of characters never take into consideration that the heroine's life is HER life. She has a right to alter it however she wants; he doesnt.

A woman is the sole discretion over what happens with her body pertaining to child birth. A hospital will ask the mother what to do in cases of high risk birth, not the father, and they have no choice but to follow her wishes even if it kills her. The only exception is if she's incoherent or unconscious and can't be asked.

And when a man in a supposedly loving relationship suggests to his WIFE that she abort their baby to have an affair with another man for the sake of children, that's abuse.

"She wanted it" is never an excuse for drugging someone without their knowledge before sex.

Rape is a condition of the present, not the past, and if a woman (or man) tells their partner to stop at any point, and the partner doesn't -- it's rape. Putting the partner in a state of diminished capacity with drugs or alcohol means they are no longer able to voice their objections with clarity.

And yes becoming distant is one of the first signs of an abusive relationship when the cause is known to be because of another individual. It's common with these types of character relationships. They're obsessive and the one who is the most obsessed (usually the guy) wants his partner to be as totally focused on him as he is on her. That means there's no room for friends any more, even long standing ones.

With Jacob, yes, she reacquainted with him, and was friends with him, and then found herself with a boyfriend who did everything in his power - including kidnapping - to keep her from seeing him again.

A boyfriend who actually thought of Jacob as a lesser species.

If one character's life is so totally dependent on the existence and presence of another person in it, that's not healthy. It's co-dependent at best. And there's no indication that this is regular behavior for any other character in the book. Carlisle and Esme weren't that way about each other. Alice and Jasper weren't. Rosalie didn't have to have Emmett in sight at all times or know where he was.

[scarletpeaches]

Gah, Scarlet sneaks in while I'm pasting and makes sense...

Quoted for the sheer WTFery of it. :roll:

[witchunter88]

I'm totalling missing the point on rape here, but nevermind...

One possibility for Edward being appealing to some girls is that he is 'old fashioned' and doesn't jump straight into bed with Bella, i think seeing a relationship where sex isn't pushed (by the male party, certainly) has an appeal for being something 'different' and as such appeals.

I personally don't think Edward was abusive, i think behaviours can be construed in many different ways; in the context of Twilight and fantasy elements, the behaviour seemed reasonable and logical. Not abusive in the slightest.

As for the suicidal thing being part of an abusive relationship, i think that's a point that needs to be treated carefully. Yes, there are abusive partners who threaten suicide if a partner leaves but knowing that a person may attempt suicide at the end of a relationship can be 'reasonable' behaviour depending on the person. Also, something Meyer reiterates is that Bella and Edward were soul mates, true loves and so - Romeo and Juliet style - Edward can't bear the thought of living if Bella were to die but lived, depressed, when he left her 'for her own good' at the start of New Moon.



For the win. :) Especially on Edward being appealing for his old fashioned values, making the rape accusations even more baffling.

----

While attitude is definitely a large part of Edward's charm, it's undeniable his looks does also. He's described in such a dreamy manner that a lot of girls can easily fantasize about him and his movie star good looks.

[scarletpeaches]

I think people seriously underestimate the willingness of teen girls to have sex.

Hell, it's been fourteen years since I was a teen but if I'd dated a guy who wanted to wait I would have been climbing the walls.

But that's just me.

[BlueLucario]

But maybe the readers do.

Again, I have readers who told me they would like to fix my protagonist, feed him soup, etc.
Actually, I feel that way with certain characters. And I grow completely fixated with them. Edward Cullen for example.

I very rarely experience this kind of thing. And I love characters who have a troubled past and stuff like that.

[Atlantis]

A lot of girls love edward cullen, you know, the world famous Vampire. It's time to figure out what makes young girls love Edward. I'm writing a story where I have the ultimate school heartthrob. But then when my sister bought twilight.(snuck it out of her room.;)) She never shuts up about Edward at dinner. She said even her boyfriend can't live up to this guy.

I read twilight and I can't figure oout what fangirls see in edward.(I'm a guy.)

I want to make Arden into the pretty boy. Something young girls will go gaga over. My sister is not easy to please. i asked her, but she doesn't know what she likes about edward, except sparkles(Vampires sparkle?)

--------------
Everyone please help me. what makes edward a hot guy? I need a pretty boy in my book.

Edward is mysterious. When he first introduces himself to Bella he speaks politely, like people would've done decades ago, which makes him very different from the average teenager which would attract the attention of any girl. He's beautiful but also dangerous. He has a violent side that he keeps held back behind a polite exterior. The danger factor is attractive. He has powers. There's a reason why people enjoy vampire romances. Its because the idea of being with someone who is immortal, incredibly beautiful, has superpowers, and the ability to kill you is attractive. Its about flirting with danger. People like the thrill. Bella did. Make your character mysterious, dangerous, and hot. All good combinations for the ultimate highschool heartthrob.

[jodiodi]

May I just say, all this talk in this thread about Edward being a Byronic archetype, has given me the urge to ... to ... to actually read the Twilight series. Maybe even see the movie.

I promised myself I wouldn't succumb to the mass hysteria, but I feel the need to see if the criticisms are accurate.

I'm hoping this feeling is only temporary and will pass. I'm going to take some aspirin and lie down.

[Devil Ledbetter]

My take on the tweenage fascination with Edward Cullen is that the Twilight stories are all blatant rescue fantasies. Bella is in danger. Edward rushes to her rescue. He carries her away in his arms as though she is a small and helpless child. They kiss .... Wash, rinse, repeat - with some eye rolling and petty bickering thrown in for "tension."

I'm starting to feel like scratched record.

[Cyia]

May I just say, all this talk in this thread about Edward being a Byronic archetype, has given me the urge to ... to ... to actually read the Twilight series. Maybe even see the movie.

I promised myself I wouldn't succumb to the mass hysteria, but I feel the need to see if the criticisms are accurate.

I'm hoping this feeling is only temporary and will pass. I'm going to take some aspirin and lie down.

Between the two, read the book. Don't watch the movie first or you'll have absolutely no idea what's going on.

[The Lonely One]

Experiment: write young adult romance, place words "smexy" (courtesy Scarlet Peaches) and "boyz" (probably appeared in a rap song somewhere) at least once each page.

(and the crowd goes wild)

But seriously. Dynamic characters make dynamic stories. Someone's sexiness doesn't exist because they sparkle. It's different things for different people, but for high school age, i.e. your story, confidence is probably huge.

And like it or not, "heartthrob" at that age implies good looking on a physical level a tweeny bit.

Stick with some of those and build beyond the stereotype, please & thnks.

[scarletpeaches]

Experiment: write young adult romance, place words "smexy" (courtesy Scarlet Peaches) and "boyz" (probably appeared in a rap song somewhere) at least once each page.

(and the crowd goes wild)...

Copyright payment by rep point, please. :D

[SarahMacManus]

I think people seriously underestimate the willingness of teen girls to have sex.

Hell, it's been fourteen years since I was a teen but if I'd dated a guy who wanted to wait I would have been climbing the walls.

But that's just me.

Which may be part of Cullen's appeal - because teenaged girls - like anybody else, really - ALWAYS crave what they can't have and what is bad for them. :)

[scarletpeaches]

But when I was a teen I could have sex and it wasn't bad for me.

scarletpeaches, contrary, especially when it comes to the myth that sex is evil, evil, evil.

[Cyia]

But when I was a teen I could have sex and it wasn't bad for me.

scarletpeaches, contrary, especially when it comes to the myth that sex is evil, evil, evil.

As can most teenage girls.

[Bukarella]

Rape accusations are silly in this case. Bella wanted "to do" it from the first kiss. She was the one that brought it up the first time, the second time, the fiftieth time, AND insisted on doing it before she turns into a vampire, so if we are to discuss why this Edward is liked, then "rape fantasy" certainly doesn't fit the bill. "The guy wants you, but treasures you too much and postpones sex" does a much better job explaining why Edward is liked, don't you think?

I also can't agree that Edward is liked because he is abusive. That's definitely not what attracts readers to him, in my humble opinion. Call me crazy! heh

[Cyia]

Rape accusations are silly in this case. Bella wanted "to do" it from the first kiss. She was the one that brought it up the first time, the second time, the fiftieth time, AND insisted on doing it before she turns into a vampire, so if we are to discuss why this Edward is liked, then "rape fantasy" certainly doesn't fit the bill. "The guy wants you, but treasures you too much and postpones sex" does a much better job explaining why Edward is liked, don't you think?

I also can't agree that Edward is liked because he is abusive. That's definitely not what attracts readers to him, in my humble opinion. Call me crazy! heh

No one's saying abusive traits are what attracts someone to this type of character, only that the character's traits are abusive. Most people don't enter into abusive relationships thinking they're going to be abused. They see the object of their desire in the best possible light, which is one reason it's hard to reconcile their perception of their partner with the reality of his or her personality.

[Bukarella]

I think people seriously underestimate the willingness of teen girls to have sex.

Hell, it's been fourteen years since I was a teen but if I'd dated a guy who wanted to wait I would have been climbing the walls.


True That! :tongue

[extortionist]

Long post ahead:

I can't say anything about the novel itself as I've only seen the movie (and only then with the Rifftrax), but I think it's important to note that a lot of what is intended to make Edward appear attractive is not the character himself but the way he's portrayed. I'm going off the movie so I'll be talking about it more in film terms, but they apply almost directly to fiction.

To briefly talk about the character himself, it seemed to me in the film that the character had a lot in common with Marlon Brando's character in A Streetcar Named Desire (if you ignore things like acting ability and depth), but with a contemporary high-school sort of masculinity and more subtle and creepy methods of control. Judging from youtube comments on clips from A Streetcar Named Desire, some women find Marlon Brando's character unbelievably attractive. It could just be that that Byronic hero type appeals to certain women, even when taken to its extremes.


Anyway, on to the story. The first thing to note is that the love story follows a pretty basic formula that's applied all over film and literature.

An important thing is Edward's first appearance walking into the cafeteria (right?). As soon as he appears he becomes the center of attention--if not in the actual cafeteria, in the narrative. They all turn and stare at him and talk about how attractive he is. This is a method of blatantly telling the viewer that, of course, they should also find him attractive. He is also, however, out of reach, apparently having isolated himself to his small group and refused to involve himself with any others. Very attractive and out of reach, an easy recipe for making the love interest character's first appearance.

Classic movies show this kind of thing very well. When the leading lady walks into a room all the heads turn, the music changes, the picture cuts to a closeup with a hazy camera and bright lights and you know then that she is the most beautiful woman in the world. But, oh no, she's the client or the ex or the villain's wife so of course our hero can never be with her.


Later on Bella meets Edward and they initially appear to hate each other for no reason. This happens in just about every bad romance sub-plot ever written--the good guy meets the girl and for some reason they just absolutely hate each other despite being attracted to each other, until at some point they're forced to work together and then find out that really they're in love.

And, of course, in Twilight they're forced to work together and find out they like each other.


Another key thing is that initial moment of contact--it's always either forced or almost accidental but it, I don't know, it's supposed to make the characters question how they feel or something. I think really it's something that's included for the sake of following the formula, but whatever. In Twilight it's when Edward saves Bella from being smashed by the car. They still hate each other but there's that little seed of something more to come.


And then the story moves on and inexplicably they're in love. The important part at this point is that all of the other characters are either absolutely amazed that Bella got Edward or they're trying to warn Bella away from him. It's something that probably everyone idealizes in a partner--hearing that they both succeeded in getting a good one and that the partner's still somehow a threat or a challenge (and everyone, for their pride, will take such a challenge). Put simply, anyway.


After this there's some trial that proves their love (the climax in Twilight). Generally after that there's a separation--something goes wrong that tears them apart until they ultimately meet up in the end and either confirm their love or break it off forever. That doesn't happen in Twilight but I bet it does in one of the sequels. You see it in all sorts of other stories, though, everything from Annie Hall to Casablanca (Casablanca being a great example because the movie is solely that final meeting after the separation, the initial love story only being told in flashbacks). Anyway by this point the audience should be entirely sympathetic to main character and the love story should already be entirely emotionally effective, with every added bit of drama adding to the love interest's attractiveness and the main character's desire for him/her.


So, what I'm saying is that a character's attractiveness has a lot to do with how he/she works with the plot and how other characters percieve him/her. The very simple romance plot (just watch a bunch of any kind of mainstream movie with a romance involved--action movies, dramas, romantic comedies--and note the plot points and you'll see what I mean) with a sprinkling of other characters saying "OMG HES SO HOT OMG" can make anyone attractive.

[Cyia]

Long post ahead:

I can't say anything about the novel itself as I've only seen the movie
Meh. Off topic, but I still want someone to explain why the current "it" book, with a quadrillion in print/guaranteed hit -- was let go by the big studio who had it optioned and allowed to sift into a small budget studio without the money or resources to shoot or edit it properly.

They turned the "fascination" with Bella into a farce at the beginning, and Edward's sparkles looked like he had a cold and someone smeared Vick's Vaporub on his chest, and then there was the make-up and chains of nothing but micro-scenes and smashcuts followed by random color filter changes from green to yellow.....

GRRRR

\rant, back to topic

To briefly talk about the character himself, it seemed to me in the film that the character had a lot in common with Marlon Brando's character in A Streetcar Named Desire (if you ignore things like acting ability and depth), but with a contemporary high-school sort of masculinity and more subtle and creepy methods of control. Judging from youtube comments on clips from A Streetcar Named Desire, some women find Marlon Brando's character unbelievably attractive. It could just be that that Byronic hero type appeals to certain women, even when taken to its extremes.

YES! Perfect example. Damaged, dangerous, and yet totally enthralling so far as the heroine is concerned.

[snip]

And, of course, in Twilight they're forced to work together and find out they like each other.

well, in this case it wasn't that he hated her, he wanted to kill her... because he liked her so much... and was therefore afraid to be near her, but yeah - analogy still works

Another key thing is that initial moment of contact--it's always either forced or almost accidental but it, I don't know, it's supposed to make the characters question how they feel or something. I think really it's something that's included for the sake of following the formula, but whatever. In Twilight it's when Edward saves Bella from being smashed by the car. They still hate each other but there's that little seed of something more to come.

Another pet peeve with the film. That was my single favorite scene in the book, mainly because it was an instinct scene and not reliant on the characters' speaking voices. In the book, there's no hate there, just a split second "you before all else" moment, and the one instance of sacrifice on the hero's part that didn't come with a side order of angst.

(though in the movie, I'm partial to the baseball game...)

[snip]

So, what I'm saying is that a character's attractiveness has a lot to do with how he/she works with the plot and how other characters percieve him/her. The very simple romance plot (just watch a bunch of any kind of mainstream movie with a romance involved--action movies, dramas, romantic comedies--and note the plot points and you'll see what I mean) with a sprinkling of other characters saying "OMG HES SO HOT OMG" can make anyone attractive.

Yes, a person's desirability is based largely in the perception of others. There's an inherent competiveness in humans (even with partners) that wants to look at everyone else and say "I'm worthy, you're not, he picked me." And THAT is exactly what I've been trying to say, but couldn't exactly figure out the words until now.

The second the heroine starts to judge her value by what she's worth in the hero's eyes, the romance becomes one sided. It's not uncommon in YA for there to be a dominant partner, but it needs to be tempered. In Bella's case, she runs with it, and from the look and sound of every other girl she comes into contact with, they all want to be in her shoes. She's Cinderella.

[Bukarella]

No one's saying abusive traits are what attracts someone to this type of character, only that the character's traits are abusive. Most people don't enter into abusive relationships thinking they're going to be abused. They see the object of their desire in the best possible light, which is one reason it's hard to reconcile their perception of their partner with the reality of his or her personality.

Well, I guess then it doesn't relate to the original post?
Meaning... I don't see their relationship as abusive, if I did I probably wouldn't be able to add to this discussion?

If Edward belittled her, called her names, disregarded her wishes, harmed her physically or mentally - but he does none of that. They argue and squabble like a normal couple. He drags her to the car on one occasion, when she was fainting the minute before. Heck yeah, she shouldn't be driving, for her own sake and for the sake of others on the road! Please do the same if your partner decides to drive right after a faint spell!

Now, if ANY guy appeared in my bedroom at night unannounced, I certainly would be creeped out, but we are talking about a fantasy book here... regular rules do not apply. It was normal and natural in the context of the novel, but so were sparkling vampires. He does not go in to watch her because he believes Bella belongs to him, he goes in because he is curious, and truly means no harm.

In the movie City of Angels, the angel comes into the apartment of the girl he loves, and he loves to watch her. Is that not stocking? Or is it okay since we are talking about an angel here?

It's simply a classic twist on old myths where a man that falls in love with the girl, notices her from afar and watches her before she notices him. I simply don't see the need to put the modern creepy vibe on it, it wasn't meant that way.

Edward hits all the right classic points of romancing the girl: defends her from evil-doers, plays music for her, saves her life a couple of times, demonstrates "can't live without her" syndrome, has the physical and materialistic side taken cared of, etc. All of that adds up to his appeal.

[Cyia]

Nope, I thought it was creepy in CoA, too.

If Edward belittled her, called her names, disregarded her wishes, harmed her physically or mentally - but he does none of that. He does both repeatedly and often. But the readers who identify with Bella overlook it.


There's a line from Blood Ties (another vampire story) where the vampire, who was the son of Henry VIII and chivalrous to a fault, says of a character like Edward.

"In my day, this would get you a sonnet."

The heroine of the series, an ex-cop, replies:

"Well today it gets you a restraining order and an ankle bracelet. Thank God for progress."

That's pretty much the crux of it.

(btw, if you want an example of a "sexy, bad boy vampire", check youtube for clips from the series based on that show. Henry's got Edward staked ;) )

[Cyia]

Actually, for the OP's purposes, YouTube wouldn't be a bad place to start. Search for videos of about a dozen "Hot" guy characters from movies or TV. Pay attention to the way they move and the way they speak. Watch other characters' reactions to them.

Look for similarities between them and see if there's any constant that follows from one character to another and use that as a baseline for your own tough guy.

[sunandshadow]

Actually, for the OP's purposes, YouTube wouldn't be a bad place to start. Search for videos of about a dozen "Hot" guy characters from movies or TV. Pay attention to the way they move and the way they speak. Watch other characters' reactions to them.

Look for similarities between them and see if there's any constant that follows from one character to another and use that as a baseline for your own tough guy.
Also try googling 'bishounen' and 'alpha male', each will get you fangirls talking about why particular male characters are hot.

[Kaylee]

That he was from another time, and treated Bella with respect.

[virtue_summer]

May I add something here? I can't speak about Twilight in particular as I haven't read it but may I point out that, in a romance context, it's as much about the partnership (or lack thereof) as it is about the hero or heroine by themselves? Take a real bad boy type and give him a woman who lets him push her around and treat her like a doormat and you have an abusive relationship. Take the same bad boy and give him an edgy woman who refuses to take the crap at all or dishes it back and now you're dealing with equals so if they forge a relationship it's going to be of a completely different nature. Example: In the television show House the main character is sarcastic, moody, and even self destructive. Relate to anything that's been talked about here? Now they haven't given him many love interests on the show but the main one they did was an old girlfriend who returned with a new husband in tow but they ended up starting up an affair. Anyway, this relationship worked for the brief period it was on the show and it was strong. Why? Because the characters were matched. The old girlfriend was a lawyer and was a woman who knew herself. She refused to take House's crap so he couldn't control her the way he does with other characters on the show. The same thing is true about the flirtations on the show between House's character and hospital administrator Cuddy who is known on the show as one of the only people who can even partly keep House in line. When he dishes out the snide remarks, she dishes them right back. When he plays his little mind games with her, she does the same with him. So really even if you have a byronic hero (and I'm thinking House probably qualifies) you can put them in a relationship that's not a case of abuser/abusee depending upon who you set them up with.

Edited to add: Let's also remember that fiction isn't real life and that qualities that women look for in a more moderate degree in real life (self confidence, for example) can be dramatized in fiction until they are taken to the ultimate extreme (arrogrance) because fiction often draws a picture that's not life but that is larger than life. Many of my favorite characters in fiction would not necessarily be people I'd always be crazy about in real life. House is indeed my favorite television character and from a distance I do think he's kind of sexy. In real life? If forced to spend more than five minutes with him I think I'd be ready to commit murder. If liking a fictional character who is dangerous was a sign of going for them in real life it would be like saying that people who seek the danger and high of riding a rollarcoaster would be likely to go throw themselves off cliffs. Danger in fiction can be sexy precisely because it's fiction and that makes it safe. So girls who go for bad boys in fiction aren't necessarily looking for the same in real life.

[Keyan]

I keep talking to women who "fell in love" with Edward - and they're not teenagers.

I think the attraction is that he's powerful, protective, and totally in love with Bella. And of course, very goodlooking. (Good looks can be substituted with other desireable traits - wealthy, titled, daring.) But the key, IMO, is powerful, protective, and adoring.

[jodiodi]

I keep talking to women who "fell in love" with Edward - and they're not teenagers.

I think the attraction is that he's powerful, protective, and totally in love with Bella. And of course, very goodlooking. (Good looks can be substituted with other desireable traits - wealthy, titled, daring.) But the key, IMO, is powerful, protective, and adoring.

I think you hit the nail exactly on the head. The audience for the book and movie is caught up in the idea of romance. Those of us who write romance understand this type of character's appeal. He's Rhett Butler, Aragorn, Heathcliff and Mr. Rochester rolled into one.

[Grrarrgh]

Maybe I'll make her watch some first season episodes of Friday Night Lights which shows a realistic and sweet romance between the teens Julie and Matt. That is how it should be. When there was a fight between Matt's football team and the opposing team, Julie told him that she was worried about him during that. He just kind of stuttered and said, "When there's a fight, I just kind of stand in the back and yell stuff."

There's also the 'bad' boy with the good heart, ala Tim Riggins of Friday Night Lights. He drinks too much, he's lazy in school and has girls falling all over him. He's one of those guys who wants to do better, but is afraid of rejection, so he screws things up before people can screw him over. He has this vulnerability that just makes girls go crazy for him. They all think that he just needs the love of a good girl/woman. :-) They want to save him, basically. (his parents both abandon him and his older brother does his best to raise him, but he's not the most stable guy in the world either.)

He's played by Taylor Kitsch, who will soon be the next big thing. He has some high profile movie roles coming out and females of all ages seem to find him attractive. Personally, he's not my type, but he does have rock hard abs, and he's very pretty, but in a guy way. http://www.iballer.com/malecelebs/kitsch_taylor/images/kitsch_taylor2_jpg.jpg

Off topic, but I just wanted to say thank you so much for that link. I am definitely one of those females who...find him attractive - let's go with that. :D

[maestrowork]

I think you hit the nail exactly on the head. The audience for the book and movie is caught up in the idea of romance. Those of us who write romance understand this type of character's appeal. He's Rhett Butler, Aragorn, Heathcliff and Mr. Rochester rolled into one.

Romance is by nature a lot of wish fulfillment. It's not to say all these women are unhappy with their own love life or relationships, but there's a reason why they like romance, and not only because they are good stories. And in wish fulfillment (or daydreaming), it helps to have the love interest to be protective and adoring. It's not to say all women want to be protected, but that's the kind of conditioning women have in this society ("marry a strong, caring man... let him take care of you"). And they would look past the other flaws (controlling, obsessive, etc.)

Stephanie Meyer openly admits that she daydreams, etc. and I think what she does right is that she understands girls and women like her. It's not to say all women are like that, but she understands women like her, and finds her audiences. Now add romance to vampires and the paranormal and supernatural, and she has an even bigger market.

Women are met with many different things in our society -- they are constantly fed with values such as "family first" or "find a good husband..." -- there's a woman I know in college who has always been independent and self-sufficient and career and goal oriented, but years later, she still ended up marrying someone, quitting her job and becoming a housewife. Plus women are bombarded by body images in movies and on TV. On the other hand, there's the whole thing about girl power and feminism. It can be really confusing to women. Heck, it's confusing to us men, too.

(Not that men don't get mixed message, but I do think the "traditional male role" is more defined and reinforced. But what men can measure up to Edward Cullen? None of us sparkles)

[Grrarrgh]

Actually no it's not. There are a lot of people who take drugs, and have deliberate sex with someone.

And Bella CLEARLY wanted to have sex long before this.


Ok. I just finished reading through this thread and I had to say something about this. I don't want to de-rail, so I'm not going to make it a big deal, but this really bugged me.

When Cyia said "Unannounced drugs+sex = rap. No exceptions", she was absolutely right. What you're talking about is completely different. If I decide to take any kind of drug before having sex, for whatever reason, that's fine. If anyone, anyone at all, gives me drugs that I don't know anything about (unannounced drugs) and then has sex with me, that is not even close to the same thing. Cyia is right - that is absolutely rape, no discussion, no exceptions.

And, yes, Bella did want to have sex with Edward for a long time. But what if, once the sex started, she realized that Edward had been right and it was just too painful because of his superstrength or whatever reason? If she had been drugged, as Carlisle sugguested, she may not have been able to tell Edward that she was in pain, and he wouldn't have been able to stop. This scenario takes away her ability to tell him that she needs him to stop. This makes it rape. Period.

[Phaeal]

If I were Bella, I'd have been slapping Edward upside the head from Book One. Turn me, dumbass! I want to live forever, never sleep, outrun cheetahs, stop speeding cars with my bare hands, and (of course) sparkle, ALL RIGHT??? Especially that never sleep thing. Sleep is such a waste of time. ;)

That incredibly protracted tease obviously worked for many readers, however. It often does. Think of how many TV series have been sustained, on the romance level, by a "we want it, but we mustn't, shouldn't, couldn't" dynamic.

[maestrowork]

Forbidden love is one of the most powerful in romance.

[Bukarella]

When Cyia said "Unannounced drugs+sex = rap. No exceptions", she was absolutely right. What you're talking about is completely different.

If she had been drugged, as Carlisle sugguested, she may not have been able to tell Edward that she was in pain, and he wouldn't have been able to stop. This scenario takes away her ability to tell him that she needs him to stop. This makes it rape. Period.

I've yet to meet a person that was raped that didn't feel violated. Bella obviously enjoyed the process, had no regrets, did not see it as rape, and would have been glad to do it over (which she did ;) ).

We can try to twist the scenario around to make it fit our point, but it is what it is. As the song goes, "She liked it, she loved it, she wanted more of it," and that ain't rape.

I have read a couple of romance novels where a girl supposedly fell in love with the guy that raped her, and in these novels the girl was clearly against it, or unaware of what was actually happening, and felt violated after the act. All of it added up to rape, and that made the male character too awful for me to like, and the romance too forced for me to believe. Nowhere does Meyer imply that it was rape. If she did, I am convinced Edward would not have been as popular of a character as he is, you know?

[Grrarrgh]

I've yet to meet a person that was raped that didn't feel violated. Bella obviously enjoyed the process, had no regrets, did not see it as rape, and would have been glad to do it over (which she did ;) ).

We can try to twist the scenario around to make it fit our point, but it is what it is. As the song goes, "She liked it, she loved it, she wanted more of it," and that ain't rape.

I have read a couple of romance novels where a girl supposedly fell in love with the guy that raped her, and in these novels the girl was clearly against it, or unaware of what was actually happening, and felt violated after the act. All of it added up to rape, and that made the male character too awful for me to like, and the romance too forced for me to believe. Nowhere does Meyer imply that it was rape. If she did, I am convinced Edward would not have been as popular of a character as he is, you know?

Edward didn't rape Bella. He didn't give her the drugs. I didn't say that he did.

[Bukarella]

Edward didn't rape Bella. He didn't give her the drugs. I didn't say that he did.

Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

[maestrowork]

I've yet to meet a person that was raped that didn't feel violated. Bella obviously enjoyed the process, had no regrets, did not see it as rape, and would have been glad to do it over (which she did ;) ).

We can try to twist the scenario around to make it fit our point, but it is what it is. As the song goes, "She liked it, she loved it, she wanted more of it," and that ain't rape.

Sorry. Wrong.

If you give someone a drug without her consenting to it, let alone knowing about it, then proceed to have sex with her, that's rape. It's a violation. I don't care if she enjoyed the sex (perhaps due to the influence of drugs -- that's the thing about incapacitation under influence). Such argument -- "she likes it, so it must not be rape" -- is irresponsible and ignorant and dangerous. In many cases, that's called date rape. Look it up.

[Rarri]

But Bella wasn't drugged... or at least, i have totally missed the reference to it.

(I will no doubt reply to other posts properly later on, i'm still grumphy after last night, so again, apologies for any incoherence!)

[scarletpeaches]

Edward never did anything to Bella sexually that she didn't want, drugs or no.

I mean, jeez...they waited until book four. And they were married.

Killing people while drinking their blood? Fine. Pre-marital smex? OH NOES TEH HORRORZ!!!

[Bukarella]

Sorry. Wrong.

If you give someone a drug without her consenting to it, let alone knowing about it, then proceed to have sex with her, that's rape. It's a violation. I don't care if she enjoyed the sex (perhaps due to the influence of drugs -- that's the thing about incapacitation under influence). Such argument -- "she likes it, so it must not be rape" -- is irresponsible and ignorant and dangerous. In many cases, that's called date rape. Look it up.

I thought in this scenario it was called a wedding night?

My argument is not that because she liked it - therefore it's not rape; it was just one of the pieces that proved that it wasn't rape.

There was nothing done to Bella that she didn't want to happen, and that's what makes it a not rape.

If it's not something you wanted for the character, that's a different story, but it clearly went along with Bella's wishes. Rape is never along with the victim's wishes.

[fringle]

I just reread the wedding night and the part when Edward talks about speaking to Carlisle about sex, and I couldn't find any mention of Carlisle recommending drugs. Edward actually says that he himself was worried, but the Carlisle had faith in him. Where does it say that Carlisle suggests drugs? Help me find it.

[MMcDonald64]

Off topic, but I just wanted to say thank you so much for that link. I am definitely one of those females who...find him attractive - let's go with that. :D

You're very welcome. :-)

I feel lost in this thread, as I have never read Twilight, never saw the movie and don't even know what the character looks like. (who played him? I might have seen a pic, but can't recall.)

I think attraction is so much more than looks, and not every woman is going to be attracted to the same things. I like the good guys--especially if there is a hero complex. Others don't and find them boring. I find the bad boys irritating and wonder how anyone can like them.

[witchunter88]

I just reread the wedding night and the part when Edward talks about speaking to Carlisle about sex, and I couldn't find any mention of Carlisle recommending drugs. Edward actually says that he himself was worried, but the Carlisle had faith in him. Where does it say that Carlisle suggests drugs? Help me find it.


I'd like to know to. I don't remember them talking about drugs for the wedding.

And I turned in my copy to the library already... :( I need to buy a box set.

[Birol]

Which, again, the mod in me must ask, how is talking about date rape in context of a thread talking about what makes a male character appealing on topic if said character never engaged in such an activity?

[Bukarella]

Which, again, the mod in me must ask, how is talking about date rape in context of a thread talking about what makes a male character appealing on topic if said character never engaged in such an activity?

Doesn't it discuss how we, the readers, interpret character's actions? The same character that original post asked about?

I find it extremely useful, since it shows how different we read the same book, and that reminds me as a writer to be careful in creating a character whose actions might be seen as something as awful as rape, when I did not intend it as a writer.

Is this not allowed?

[Cyia]

okay, since my post was the one that started this: I never said Edward raped Bella, at least I didn't mean to. I said that the actions discussed (and considered) in the book would have been rape had he carried them out.

And if I still had my copies of the books, I'd tell you the page numbers, but I don't. I gave the last two to my library because I didn't like them. I'll also say that I started off on the exact opposite side of the debate here on other boards -- until the points I mentioned were pointed out to me. It didn't seem so harmless anymore.



Look at other BH style characters like the Phantom of the Opera. They have the same tendencies. They're intense and controlling and obsess over the innocent young girl, yet they're also considered romantic. None of that seems romantic (or "sexy") to me. Phantom was another stalker/admirer, too.

[melaniehoo]

Cyia, thanks for clarifying. I was reading this thread and thought I lost my marbles because I never picked up on any rape, drugging, or what have you.

[Birol]

Doesn't it discuss how we, the readers, interpret character's actions? The same character that original post asked about?

I find it extremely useful, since it shows how different we read the same book, and that reminds me as a writer to be careful in creating a character whose actions might be seen as something as awful as rape, when I did not intend it as a writer.

Is this not allowed?

It's not just interpreting things differently. It's talking about things that blatantly did not happen -- drugging of Bella -- and then trying to turn the thread into a discussion of why rape is bad and evil and should not be glorified.

[Bukarella]

okay, since my post was the one that started this: I never said Edward raped Bella, at least I didn't mean to. I said that the actions discussed (and considered) in the book would have been rape had he carried them out.

And if I still had my copies of the books, I'd tell you the page numbers, but I don't. I gave the last two to my library because I didn't like them. I'll also say that I started off on the exact opposite side of the debate here on other boards -- until the points I mentioned were pointed out to me. It didn't seem so harmless anymore.



Look at other BH style characters like the Phantom of the Opera. They have the same tendencies. They're intense and controlling and obsess over the innocent young girl, yet they're also considered romantic. None of that seems romantic (or "sexy") to me. Phantom was another stalker/admirer, too.

I find it interesting to compare Edward to Phantom.
I would guess that Phantom's appeal comes from pity we feel for him, and not from his romantic qualities; Edward's appeal in something completely different. Don't you think?
I would assume no one will defend Phantom's actions, while many will defend Edward's.

[Cyia]

I find it interesting to compare Edward to Phantom.
I would guess that Phantom's appeal comes from pity we feel for him, and not from his romantic qualities; Edward's appeal in something completely different. Don't you think?
I would assume no one will defend Phantom's actions, while many will defend Edward's.


Why not? Phantom believe everything he did was for Christine's benefit and protection, which is the same argument for Edward's. If anything, comparing the two of them gives the reader a hint of how Twilight could have played out if Bella had gone for Jacob over Edward.

No matter what Edward's words in Twilight, his actions said that he physically wasn't capable of staying away from Bella. Every time he tried to stay away, he was drawn back. He was homicidal at times, and barely restrained for Bella's benefit. (though if you read Midnight Sun....)

Edward and Jacob were natural (or supernatural) enemies. Phantom and Raoul merely mortals, but had Bella spurned Edward, I think there would have been a Phantom-esque showdown in the end because the vampire was engineered to believe that the were was a lesser creature. Lesser creature = less capable of protecting his mate.

[Rarri]

Edward knows it's Bella's choice and tells her that he would let them be together (IE Bella and Jacob) because he just wanted her to be happy and wouldn't challenge Jacob.

[Cyia]

Edward knows it's Bella's choice and tells her that he would let them be together (IE Bella and Jacob) because he just wanted her to be happy and wouldn't challenge Jacob.

I know he says that, but the question is could he follow through with it? Given the level of connection and obsession between the two of them, and the number of times Edward failed to keep himself away from her her - for her own good - I don't think he could have kept that promise.

He actively tried to keep her from even spending time with Jacob at the beginning of the story, which is why she had to find ways to sneak around where Edward wouldn't get a head's up from Alice and stop her.

[Rarri]

Given that Meyer is the one best placed to answer, as they're her character, i can only give my feelings on this. I think Edward would, by the point in the book where this situation occurs, he's seen how he's hurt Bella (like when he left in New Moon) and i think is sincere that he just wants her to be happy. His concern over Jacob earlier in the book was that he felt werewolves were dangerous/unpredictable (Sam's attack on Emily being a part of his worry, from what i remember) and felt Bella didn't appreciate this, but in time he came to realise that he was wrong over Jacob being 'dangerous'.

[Ctairo]

I have a question regarding Edward's "hotness" as well. I get the Byronic Hero deal, I do. I may not be interested in it (it's a little too old school romance for my tastes and has zero applicability to RL), but I understand the appeal.

That said, how do women/girls who find Edward appealing get past Meyer's own description of his skin? Cold. Hard. Edward's physicality--not his personality--is what primarily defines him thanks to Meyer. Wouldn't snuggling up with him be like mounting the sidewalk?

[melaniehoo]

I have a question regarding Edward's "hotness" as well. I get the Byronic Hero deal, I do. I may not be interested in it (it's a little too old school romance for my tastes and has zero applicability to RL), but I understand the appeal.

That said, how do women/girls who find Edward appealing get past Meyer's own description of his skin? Cold. Hard. Edward's physicality--not his personality--is what primarily defines him thanks to Meyer. Wouldn't snuggling up with him be like mounting the sidewalk?

That's the part that stopped me... er... cold. I chose to ignore that while reading because it took me out of the story too much. I think that's why a lot of people prefer Jacob.

[Cyia]

Cold is a usual description of vampire skin, some writers go so far as to have them lose their sense of touch if they go with the "animated dead" angle, but I have to agree with the "hard" part. I don't believe for one second that she'd be able to sleep comfortably with him like that.

Or that Bella would have missed the rock hard ice brick angle when he carried her to the nurse's office.

[Ctairo]

And cold--as in standard vampire cold? Is okay. Strangely. Because it's corpse cold, not marble cold. Huge difference IMHO.

[sunandshadow]

I have a question regarding Edward's "hotness" as well. I get the Byronic Hero deal, I do. I may not be interested in it (it's a little too old school romance for my tastes and has zero applicability to RL), but I understand the appeal.

That said, how do women/girls who find Edward appealing get past Meyer's own description of his skin? Cold. Hard. Edward's physicality--not his personality--is what primarily defines him thanks to Meyer. Wouldn't snuggling up with him be like mounting the sidewalk?
Beautiful women have often been described as having porcelain skin, or being a china doll or ice princess. Some people find androids attractive, and I can only imagine they would be cold (or lukewarm) and hard. And in fantasy there are plenty of magical beings made out of living stone or metal or having scales... Look at mermaids, they have been considered sexy for more then a thousand years, and they are significantly more alien than the average vampire.

Also, anything can become attractive in context; on a ninety-degree day, who wouldn't want to cuddle up with a lover whose touch felt like a cool breeze?

[Bukarella]

Why not? Phantom believe everything he did was for Christine's benefit and protection, which is the same argument for Edward's. If anything, comparing the two of them gives the reader a hint of how Twilight could have played out if Bella had gone for Jacob over Edward.

No matter what Edward's words in Twilight, his actions said that he physically wasn't capable of staying away from Bella. Every time he tried to stay away, he was drawn back. He was homicidal at times, and barely restrained for Bella's benefit. (though if you read Midnight Sun....)
.

I truly can't see Edward anywhere new Phantom. I'm sure you won't have anyone arguing over Phantom's scary side.

I feel pity and fear when it comes to Phantom (as I'm sure the author intended for Phantom). "Hot and romantic" are no where on my mind (as I'm sure the author intended for Edward). You are seeing something very different than I am.

On Jacob topic...
Jacob outwardly and on many occasions insults Edward, yet Edward never reciprocates; In fact, it was much of the appeal (at least to me) to see the character take the higher road, and not to get involved into verbal confrontation, like Jacob did. So I doubt it would ever come to show-down, at least not from Edward's part.

As far as staying away from Bella, of course he couldn't (and shouldn't). What true romance has a character that could stay away from the love of his life, when the love of his life claimed she wanted to be with him? I can't think of one example. That's another part of his appeal (in my mind, at least). It follows all the "can't live without you" love stories ever written. Heck, even Romeo stocked Juliet's balcony! (not that those two had a happy end... heh!)

Once again, in the movie City of Angles, the Angel did exact same "stocking" as Edward did. Both are accepted within fantasy realm, but clearly wouldn't work within human world. It's part of the magic of the story. It's allowed, it's safe, it's accepted. It's fantasy.

I just read a story about a gnome who helped a lad steal a girl from trolls. The lad watched the girl, and fell in love with her, and wanted to save her. It's a story that shows up again and again. Edward is just another one in line of these characters. And no more creepy or abusive than any of them.

[Cyia]

And I find it creepy and abusive in all of them. That's the point. You're making distinctions where I (and others) don't. It's not okay for one and it's not okay for the other.

These aren't just fantasy stories. They're fantasy within the realm of reality, and in an instance (especially in an instance) like City of Angels, it's totally out of character for a woman like the one presented to accept something "just because".

In fact, Maggie isn't an easy sell on the concept. If I remember correctly she pulls a kitchen knife out to defend herself when she's faced with the reality of what's been going on. She also has a major hissy with her "I can't even conceive of you!" rant. THAT is how a normal, modern, woman would react.

[Ctairo]

Beautiful women have often been described as having porcelain skin, or being a china doll or ice princess. Some people find androids attractive, and I can only imagine they would be cold (or lukewarm) and hard. And in fantasy there are plenty of magical beings made out of living stone or metal or having scales... Look at mermaids, they have been considered sexy for more then a thousand years, and they are significantly more alien than the average vampire.

Also, anything can become attractive in context; on a ninety-degree day, who wouldn't want to cuddle up with a lover whose touch felt like a cool breeze?
Porcelain skin refers to color or texture (as in a reference to "smooth"), yes? Meyer wrote Edward literally as hard, cold, like stone. Androids people find attractive generally approximate humanness...or make up for the lack (of humanness) in other ways... Which may be Edward's appeal. I'm hard pressed to think of an android that's refrigerator temperature though.

You bring up a good point about mermaids. I don't get the appeal there either. Half-FISH? I mean, no leaving a mermaid out in the sun...

You know, a ninety-degree day would've explained it. But Forks is cloudy and cold. *scratches head* So readers are supplying context? In a very big way. Interesting.

[sunandshadow]

Oh readers definitely supply context (and imagination which works in particularly optimistic and forgiving ways) when it comes to finding characters attractive. Also science fiction and fantasy readers in particular are used to accepting characters that aren't really human as human enough to be identified with and considered attractive (perhaps following the example of seeing other characters within the work consider that character normal and/or attractive). Can you imagine being a vampire? I think if you imagine being one of any type of creature, it makes it easier to consider that type of creature attractive.


On the Phantom topic - I think he's a particularly good example to study because the Phantom of the Opera story has been done in dozens of different ways, and some of these versions of the phantom are much more attractive than others.

[Bukarella]

And I find it creepy and abusive in all of them. That's the point. You're making distinctions where I (and others) don't. It's not okay for one and it's not okay for the other.

These aren't just fantasy stories.

ah, I understand better now where you are coming from. Here is why I understand Edward's appeal and you don't - I allow books to take me places where reality of today wouldn't fit. I enjoy all of those fairy tales and stories, and do find them romantic, not necessarily because everything is explained perfectly, and everything makes sense if it was replayed in real life, but just because it fits within the realms of the story, just because the author said so. I think it's harder when you trying to reason through things through the glass of reality.

It's kind of like some people can enjoy a movie with imperfect logic, and others can't. I think this falls under the same category in certain aspects (as it related to night visits for example), while in others we just have a different take on the characters actions (Jacob's baiting and Edward's restraint).

I'm agreeing to disagree here!

For the sake of staying on track with my writing, I'll try to stay away from this thread. :flag:

But sure is fun to read...

[witchunter88]

Look at other BH style characters like the Phantom of the Opera. They have the same tendencies. They're intense and controlling and obsess over the innocent young girl, yet they're also considered romantic. None of that seems romantic (or "sexy") to me. Phantom was another stalker/admirer, too.

There's a HUGE difference between the Phantom's relationship with Christine and Edward's relationship with Bella.

For one, Christine didn't want to have a relationship with the Phantom. Bella clearly did with Edward. Second, the Phantom was never meant to be sexy, nor was his purpose to be sexy. :X And third, the Phantom actually abducted Christine without her consent and almost killed the other man in her life.

How you equate Edward (devoted, self sacrificial) to the Phantom (demented, capriciously obsessive) escapes me.

Why not? Phantom believe everything he did was for Christine's benefit and protection, which is the same argument for Edward's. If anything, comparing the two of them gives the reader a hint of how Twilight could have played out if Bella had gone for Jacob over Edward.

The two characters are polar opposites in how they treat the other woman. The only similarity between the two is that they both deeply love the other woman.

The STARK differences are that the Phantom negatively impacts Christine's life by abducting her and almost killing her true love. Edward on the other hand is Bella's soulmate, he would never terrify her by abducting her and he didn't try killing Jacob just because he was competition.

Bringing up the Phantom, THAT'S someone who could actually be considered abusive. He deliberately does hurtful and maniacal things which inflicts injuries mentally on Christine.

Edward NEVER has done that. <3

[Cyia]

There's a HUGE difference between the Phantom's relationship with Christine and Edward's relationship with Bella.

For one, Christine didn't want to have a relationship with the Phantom. Bella clearly did with Edward. Second, the Phantom was never meant to be sexy, nor was his purpose to be sexy. :X And second, the Phantom actually abducted Christine without her consent and almost killed the other man in her life.

How you equate Edward (devoted, self sacrificial) to the Phantom (demented, capriciously obsessive) escapes me.

*sigh*

The comparison is right there in what you quoted. They're archetypes, not clones. There are supposed to be differences, but the core of both characters is the same, and it's those qualities that OP was wanting to pinpoint because it's those qualities that attract people to a BH (and in fact to Byron himself)
They are both Byronic characters or even anti-heroes.
They are both intense and make it their job to protect the object of their affection/obsession with or without her consent.
They are both mysterious, dark, broody, other-worldly
They both offer a thrill of danger
Both women are warned off their relationships with both men and ignore the warning
Both men are off-putting to outsiders (the phantom a bit more obviously, but there's still a "sense" other males get around Edward)
Both are scary territorial about their lady love
Both are protectors, and feel the need to protect the woman from her "other suitor". Even to the point of homicide (read Midnight Sun for the rest of the story concerning what happened to the men who were ganging up on Bella in La Push)
Both watch from afar while the woman isn't aware of their presence
And whether you believe it or not, there is something "sexy" about the Phantom. He's not physically attractive (which is the smallest component of "sexy"), but he has other traits that make up for it, not the least of which is his musical ability... like Edward.
And, Edward did abduct Bella and hold her against her will - via Alice - in return for a car.
And Christine did originally want a relationship with the Phantom - just not the same kind he wanted with her.
another thing to look for in MS is Edward's "dementia" where Bella is concerned when Smeyer explains his thought processes in Science class - he was trying to figure out a way to kill her, and the rest of the class, and escape before anyone saw.The stories have different endings, but the characters are very similar.

[Ctairo]

That's the part that stopped me... er... cold. I chose to ignore that while reading because it took me out of the story too much. I think that's why a lot of people prefer Jacob.
Ah. So you just ignored it. That makes sense. :)

[jodiodi]

Well said, Cyia.

Both are examples of gothic heroes. As was once said of Lord Byron, they're "mad, bad and dangerous to know."

What hormonal teenage girl can resist that?

[witchunter88]

*sigh*

The comparison is right there in what you quoted. They're archetypes, not clones. There are supposed to be differences, but the core of both characters is the same, and it's those qualities that OP was wanting to pinpoint because it's those qualities that attract people to a BH (and in fact to Byron himself)
They are both Byronic characters or even anti-heroes.
They are both intense and make it their job to protect the object of their affection/obsession with or without her consent.
They are both mysterious, dark, broody, other-worldly
Yes, but these few similarities don't make up for the VAST differences in their actions.

They both offer a thrill of danger
The Phantom is the cause of the danger in Christine's life. His actions negatively affect her. Edward gives Bella true love. It is the Volturi and other vampires (external forces) that is dangerous. Also this is fiction, so if there were no danger it'd be BORING.

Both women are warned off their relationships with both men and ignore the warning
Christine didn't want a "relationship" with the Phantom. he was the one that wanted to take it to the next level. Bella truly wanted to be with Edward.

Both men are off-putting to outsiders (the phantom a bit more obviously, but there's still a "sense" other males get around Edward)
The Phantom was bitter against other people. Edward was not vindictive towards others. The Phantom was grotesque while Edward was beautiful. Total opposites.

Both are scary territorial about their lady love
The Phantom kidnaps Christine, even after she deflects his advances. Bella willfully seeks Edward's protection. She is as obsessively in love with him as he is to her.

Both are protectors, and feel the need to protect the woman from her "other suitor". Even to the point of homicide (read Midnight Sun for the rest of the story concerning what happened to the men who were ganging up on Bella in La Push)
Edward never wanted to kill Jacob. He was irritated, but not to the point of homicide.

Both watch from afar while the woman isn't aware of their presence
Bella finds out about it very soon actually. And she is flattered.

And whether you believe it or not, there is something "sexy" about the Phantom. He's not physically attractive (which is the smallest component of "sexy"), but he has other traits that make up for it, not the least of which is his musical ability... like Edward.
Christine nor the audience are supposed to be as attracted to the Phantom as much as Edward is to his readers and Bella.

And, Edward did abduct Bella and hold her against her will - via Alice - in return for a car.
Again. That wasn't kidnapping. Bella did not fear for her life, she was being saved.

And Christine did originally want a relationship with the Phantom - just not the same kind he wanted with her.
Except unlike Edward, he went cuckoo and tried killing Christine's true love. Edward loved Bella so much he would have left her alone if she told him she wanted Jacob and that she wanted him out of her life.

another thing to look for in MS is Edward's "dementia" where Bella is concerned when Smeyer explains his thought processes in Science class - he was trying to figure out a way to kill her, and the rest of the class, and escape before anyone saw.
But he didn't kill her. Because he loved her enough to overpower his primal instincts.

The stories have different endings, but the characters are very similar.

The characters are slightly similar but hardly identical.

[Cyia]

The characters are slightly similar but hardly identical.

Originally Posted by Cyia http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3534241#post3534241)
*sigh*

The comparison is right there in what you quoted. They're archetypes, not clones. <--- as in similar, not identical. You keep taking the comparison as an attack on Edward's character, it's not. There are supposed to be differences, but the core of both characters is the same, and it's those qualities that OP was wanting to pinpoint because it's those qualities that attract people to a BH (and in fact to Byron himself)
They are both Byronic characters or even anti-heroes.
They are both intense and make it their job to protect the object of their affection/obsession with or without her consent.
They are both mysterious, dark, broody, other-worldly
Yes, but these few similarities don't make up for the VAST differences in their actions.They're not supposed to "ARCH-E-TYPE"

They both offer a thrill of danger
The Phantom is the cause of the danger in Christine's life.As is Edward, as he states more than once. HIS bad decisions put her in danger time and again. And HIS refusal to turn her leaves her fair game. That's a given of the archetype, the more the hero tries to control the situation, the less he's able to until the whole thing spirals out of his control. His actions negatively affect her. Edward gives Bella true love. It is the Volturi and other vampires (external forces) that is dangerous. Also this is fiction, so if there were no danger it'd be BORING.And no one said otherwise. Fangirl arguments don't change the style of hero Smeyer selected for her MC. They aren't called "bad boys" because they're sweetness and light.
Both women are warned off their relationships with both men and ignore the warning
Christine didn't want a "relationship" with the Phantom. he was the one that wanted to take it to the next level. Bella truly wanted to be with Edward.Yes she did. She wanted the relationship she'd always had with him, which was mentor/student. As I already said, she just didn't want the same kind of relationship.
Both men are off-putting to outsiders (the phantom a bit more obviously, but there's still a "sense" other males get around Edward)
The Phantom was bitter against other people. Edward was not vindictive towards others. The Phantom was grotesque while Edward was beautiful. Total opposites.Again.. ARCH-E-TYPE. Edward didn't feel any more beautiful than the phantom. Both were made monsters in their own mind by the actions of others outside their own control. Phantom externalized his rage; Edward internalized his.
Both are scary territorial about their lady love
The Phantom kidnaps Christine, even after she deflects his advances. Bella willfully seeks Edward's protection. She is as obsessively in love with him as he is to her.Except for the time he kidnapped her and held her against her will :D Or the times Bella sneaks away from Edward's "protection" so she can visit her friend.
Both are protectors, and feel the need to protect the woman from her "other suitor". Even to the point of homicide (read Midnight Sun for the rest of the story concerning what happened to the men who were ganging up on Bella in La Push)
Edward never wanted to kill Jacob. He was irritated, but not to the point of homicide.Read it again, I said he was homicidal toward the men in La Push - as shown in Midnight Sun.
Both watch from afar while the woman isn't aware of their presence
Bella finds out about it very soon actually. And she is flattered.But, before she found out, he was still sneaking in there every night without her knowlege invitation or consent. Time frame and reaction means nothing.
And whether you believe it or not, there is something "sexy" about the Phantom. He's not physically attractive (which is the smallest component of "sexy"), but he has other traits that make up for it, not the least of which is his musical ability... like Edward.
Christine nor the audience are supposed to be as attracted to the Phantom as much as Edward is to his readers and Bella.Based on what?
And, Edward did abduct Bella and hold her against her will - via Alice - in return for a car.
Again. That wasn't kidnapping. Bella did not fear for her life, she was being saved.Kidnapping carried out by relatives or friends for "good reasons" - as in the #1 kind in the world - is still kidnapping. Motive is irrelevant.
And Christine did originally want a relationship with the Phantom - just not the same kind he wanted with her.
Except unlike Edward, he went cuckoo and tried killing Christine's true love. Edward loved Bella so much he would have left her alone if she told him she wanted Jacob and that he needed out of her life.You assume. yet, in practice he was never able to follow through on the "leave her alone" parts.
another thing to look for in MS is Edward's "dementia" where Bella is concerned when Smeyer explains his thought processes in Science class - he was trying to figure out a way to kill her, and the rest of the class, and escape before anyone saw.
But he didn't kill her. Because he loved her enough to overpower his primal instincts.Still irrelevant. It's a character trait. And it wasn't his love for Bella that stopped him. It was his fear of disappointing Carlisle - as stated in Midnight Sun.The stories have different endings, but the characters are very similar.


ETA: You know, Phantom is only ONE other such character, you can make a similarities chart with any number of others. Try Batman. (and no, that's not a joke, he's considered a penultimate BH)

[witchunter88]

They're not supposed to "ARCH-E-TYPE"

Being part of an archetype doesn't mean they are "very similar". Batman and the Phantom are very very VERY different.

As is Edward, as he states more than once. HIS bad decisions put her in danger time and again. And HIS refusal to turn her leaves her fair game. That's a given of the archetype, the more the hero tries to control the situation, the less he's able to until the whole thing spirals out of his control.
It's BELLA'S DECISION to continue the love affair. Thus it is HER DOING. The Phantom will NOT leave Christine alone. Edward tries to push Bella away from him. Edward has no control over Bella's decisions.

And no one said otherwise. Fangirl arguments don't change the style of hero Smeyer selected for her MC. They aren't called "bad boys" because they're sweetness and light.
Don't call me a "fangirl", and I won't call you a "h8ter". They may share a few archetype characteristics but that doesn't make them very similar at all. It's proven in their actions in the story.

Yes she did. She wanted the relationship she'd always had with him, which was mentor/student. As I already said, she just didn't want the same kind of relationship.
I said "relationship" in the context of intimacy. What she wanted was FRIENDSHIP. So I am right, she DIDN'T want a relationship with him. While Bella DID.

Again.. ARCH-E-TYPE. Edward didn't feel any more beautiful than the phantom. Both were made monsters in their own mind by the actions of others outside their own control. Phantom externalized his rage; Edward internalized his.
Edward knew he was beautiful. He wasn't ignorant. And Edward was not near as violent as the Phantom.

Except for the time he kidnapped her and held her against her will :D Or the times Bella sneaks away from Edward's "protection" so she can visit her friend.
He never kidnapped her against her will. Bella was never IMPRISONED underground like Christine. lol... HUGE DIFFERENCE

Read it again, I said he was homicidal toward the men in La Push - as shown in Midnight Sun.
Okay first of all, MS was abandoned so I don't even consider it part of the world. I don't even remember that in the MS manuscript. And there's a difference between wanting to kill and ACTUALLY killing. Edward is unable to stop his natural urges, but he is strong enough to overcome them.

But, before she found out, he was still sneaking in there every night without her knowlege invitation or consent. Time frame and reaction means nothing.
Irrelevant. She did not mind it, that's what matters. She was flattered by it.

Based on what?
You can honestly say that the Phantom is portrayed just as attractively as Edward. Even though it is a fact his face is grotesque?

Kidnapping carried out by relatives or friends for "good reasons" - as in the #1 kind in the world - is still kidnapping. Motive is irrelevant.
Okay kidnapping is when someone is being forcefully dragged somewhere. BELLA AGREED TO GO. THAT AIN'T KIDNAPPING. It was a joke anyway.

You assume. yet, in practice he was never able to follow through on the "leave her alone" parts.
He didn't because Bella didn't want him to.

Still irrelevant. It's a character trait. And it wasn't his love for Bella that stopped him. It was his fear of disappointing Carlisle - as stated in Midnight Sun.
MS is a manuscript that was leaked and hadn't been sent in for editing. He rationalized the killings in his mind at first, knowing he could still get away with it, but he didn't. BECAUSE HE LOVED HER.

[/LIST]The stories have different endings, but the characters are very similar.[/I]
The stories have different endings because they are DIFFERENT characters. :)


Wow that hurt my eyes.

[SPMiller]

I am a real-life Byronic hero. Ask me.

[Toothpaste]

Oh my god. Witchunter, no one is telling you "Phantom and Edward are exactly the same and they behave in the exact same way". They simply share the same root archetype. That's all the point is. That's all Cyia is trying to get across. They are both the dark dangerous Byronic hero. I get that you love Edward and think the Phantom is gross, but actually a lot of women find the Phantom incredibly sexy as well (why else would they have cast the gorgeous Gerrard Butler in the film version?). The point isn't who is the better hero, the point is very simple. They are both examples of the Byronic hero. This was meant to help answer the OPs question, not meant to get into a debate over who is a nicer boyfriend.

In the end, aside from your disagreement about the "kidnapping", you actually agree with each other, lol.

[Cyia]

They're not supposed to "ARCH-E-TYPE"

Being part of an archetype doesn't mean they are "very similar". That's the definition of archetype. There's an over-reaching theme similar to ALL the characters in it. Batman and the Phantom are very very VERY different. Again, Yes and no.

[/list]The stories have different endings, but the characters are very similar.[/i]
The stories have different endings because they are DIFFERENT characters. In your opinion.

Now seriously, try applying those traits in a way that will help the OP with what he actually wanted to know. What makes this kind of character tick - regardless of if it makes the character nice or not.

These kinds of characters are supposed to be damaged. They're supposed to be dark. They're supposed to be dangerous. You're sterilizing all of that out of the character - things that the writer intentionally put in when she chose to base him on one of the "worst" love interests in literature. Heathcliff isn't a peach. Edward is supposed to be that kind of guy, not the shining knight.

Things like beauty are subjective, there's so much more than just physcial appearance.

Edward saw himself as hideous - poison - it didn't matter what others saw. All he saw was a snare for prey.

In the same way, there's more to the Phantom than his face - he's got grace and refinement and talent, that could also be considered bait or entrancement.

Back to Batman. This is a man who looks like he has everything, but is being eaten alive on the inside and driven by monsters no one can see. He looks good, but he makes himself grotesque.

They're all different shades of the same grey.

[witchunter88]

^ I've already made my viewpoint clear. Which is that Edward and the Phantom aren't "very similar". I do think archetypical characters share some of the numerous Byronic traits, but characters such as the Phantom and Edward and Batman in the long run turn out very different from one another. Purely on their actions alone, it is apparent their differences.

[jodiodi]

In order to make a character an individual, authors provide idiosyncrasies, details. But an archetype is a general 'group'. It's like: Rhett Butler, Mr. Rochester, Heathcliff, Count Dracula, The Phantom of the Opera, Batman, and Edward are all


Powerful
Strong
Alienated from Society in general
Protective of 'their women'
Morally ambiguous
Hiding something


Yet their personalities, rationale, backgrounds and actions are individualized.

[Cyia]

Right. If you handed those traits out as a writing prompt to a class of 100 students, you'd get 100 different characters and only a portion would be vampires. I doubt more than a couple (if any) would be super (anti) heroes. And a few would probably be villains with good intentions.

IMO, that last one is what's fascinating about this kind of hero. He's so close to the villain's side of the story that they're practically standing toe to toe with the hero refusing to cross that last line he drew for himself.

[fringle]

These kinds of characters are supposed to be damaged. They're supposed to be dark. They're supposed to be dangerous. You're sterilizing all of that out of the character - things that the writer intentionally put in when she chose to base him on one of the "worst" love interests in literature. Heathcliff isn't a peach. Edward is supposed to be that kind of guy, not the shining knight.



I think this is where a lot of the confusion in regard to Edward and his personality come from. Of course, this is just my own theory, but I believe that when Meyer was doing character development for Edward, she wanted to use Heathcliff as a model. She intended for Edward to have dark qualities, BUT she fell in madly in love with her own character and wasn't able to fully develop his dark side. She made him into a knight in sparkling armour with a few "he said darkly"s and a couple of murderous thoughts towards the dude who wants to snag his chick.

I also believe that this is why his mood swings seem so erratic and unbelievable, she just couldn't decide on how to characterize Edward. I swear it sometimes seemed as if he was shining with the smile of a million Midnight Suns in the beginning of a sentence, and then a dark shadow crossed his brow, further darkening his black and troubled onyx eyes by the end of it.

This, to me, is also why different readers get wildly different impressions of him. One reader will pick up more strongly on the Heathcliff side, while another will tune into the sparkly guardian vamp-slash-hero. It's not because he's such a multi-layered character; it's because the author chose two personalities, poured them into the shell of a character, shook well until mixed and out popped Edward.

[witchunter88]

I think this is where a lot of the confusion in regard to Edward and his personality come from. Of course, this is just my own theory, but I believe that when Meyer was doing character development for Edward, she wanted to use Heathcliff as a model. She intended for Edward to have dark qualities, BUT she fell in madly in love with her own character and wasn't able to fully develop his dark side. She made him into a knight in sparkling armour with a few "he said darkly"s and a couple of murderous thoughts towards the dude who wants to snag his chick.


This make sense. Edward definitely is Byronic influenced, but he does not carry all of a Byronic Hero's traits to the extreme as some others. Because if he did, he wouldn't be such a romantic figure as he is now.

If Meyer had made Edward too sexually adept and he knocked boots with Bella at the get-go, the delicious sexual tension between them would have disappeared.

[scarletpeaches]

...when Meyer was doing character development for Edward...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!etc

:ROFL: :roll: :ROFL: :roll: :ROFL: :roll: :ROFL: :roll: :ROFL: :roll:

[BlueLucario]

You're very welcome. :-)

I feel lost in this thread, as I have never read Twilight, never saw the movie and don't even know what the character looks like. (who played him? I might have seen a pic, but can't recall.)
.
Ehehehee...look at my Avatar. ;)

[willietheshakes]

Nonetheless, he is actually a perfect man aesthetically (which makes him far from the perfect man for Toothpaste).



(strokes beard thoughtfully)

Interesting...

[Ctairo]

I think this is where a lot of the confusion in regard to Edward and his personality come from. Of course, this is just my own theory, but I believe that when Meyer was doing character development for Edward, she wanted to use Heathcliff as a model. She intended for Edward to have dark qualities, BUT she fell in madly in love with her own character and wasn't able to fully develop his dark side. She made him into a knight in sparkling armour with a few "he said darkly"s and a couple of murderous thoughts towards the dude who wants to snag his chick.

So HeathcliffLight-Edward appeals to romance fans (and probably would-be romance fans who aren't as genre literate)... A dangerous character literally defanged. Which also explains why readers who pick up on the halted dark development have the opposite reaction.

[willietheshakes]

It might be worth taking a look at the person "Byronic" refers to. Lord Byron wasn't exactly stellar boyfriend material

My nominee for Understatement of the Year.

[Ctairo]

If Meyer had made Edward too sexually adept and he knocked boots with Bella at the get-go, the delicious sexual tension between them would have disappeared.
Genuine question: did you disregard Meyer's physical description like Melaniehoo? I couldn't feel sensual tension because I keep thinking PAVEMENT, and really, I'm not about to drop and kiss the sidewalk.

[scarletpeaches]

Genuine question: did you disregard Meyer's physical description like Melaniehoo? I couldn't feel sensual tension because I keep thinking PAVEMENT, and really, I'm not about to drop and kiss the sidewalk.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7079288.stm).

[melaniehoo]

At least it's smooth pavement. :tongue

[Ctairo]

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7079288.stm).
*cackles*

And it only took half a bottle of vodka and medication!

[Ctairo]

At least it's smooth pavement. :tongue
Careful! You might chip a tooth! :tongue

[TamiyahThirteen]

*laughes* at the conversation going on.

I have one question, though: Is the movie Edward Cullen really hot? Am I the only one who think Rob is hot, but the crew made him scary, intense, and a bad actor?

[Cyia]

The thread has officially derailed and taken the sidewalk path into the gutter. :ROFL:

[MMcDonald64]

:
Originally Posted by MMcDonald64
You're very welcome. :-)
I feel lost in this thread, as I have never read Twilight, never saw the movie and don't even know what the character looks like. (who played him? I might have seen a pic, but can't recall.)

Ehehehee...look at my Avatar. ;)

Ahhhh! Obviously pretty...but doesn't do a thing for me. Could be an age thing though. Here's my ideal guy: http://www.austin360.com/tv/content/tv/stories/2009/03/rgz-Kyle-Chandler-02.html

[Cyia]

*laughes* at the conversation going on.

I have one question, though: Is the movie Edward Cullen really hot? Am I the only one who think Rob is hot, but the crew made him scary, intense, and a bad actor?


It's not the crew's fault. The make-up, effects, and awful lighting were the side effect of paramount losing the option to a low budget studio. Had it been made as the feature a run away hit warrants, the make-up, etc. would have been a lot better. (And Rob got off easy compared to what they did to "Carlisle")

[scarletpeaches]

Word.

I cracked up laughing at the tidemark on Carlisle's neck.

[Rushie]

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7079288.stm).

My god! The kid is high as a kite and humps the sidewalk and they put him on the sex offender's list?! Juvenile arthritis? This kid needs major help. He's self destructive and massively depressed.

[BlueLucario]

Ahhhh! Obviously pretty...but doesn't do a thing for me. Could be an age thing though. Here's my ideal guy: http://www.austin360.com/tv/content/tv/stories/2009/03/rgz-Kyle-Chandler-02.html
Don;t worry. The movie made me like twilight a little less.

I'd say an 80 yr old man would make a better and prettier Edward than rpatts. (Sorry peaches, he's butt ugly.) Imagine an old man sparkle!

[BlueLucario]

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/7079288.stm).
......
.....
....
...
...
*Jaw Drop*

[Cyia]

Don;t worry. The movie made me like twilight a little less.

I'd say an 80 yr old man would make a better and prettier Edward than rpatts. (Sorry peaches, he's butt ugly.) Imagine an old man sparkle!

Actually, this is a good point for the "hot" vs. "not" aspect here. Smeyer made her characters so impossibly, painfully, beautiful that there was absolutely no way to capture it with real actors. Had the nuance part of "sexy" been given a bit more development, then there would have been more to Edward on screen than the Zoolander catalog of "looks"

[linton]

Ahhhh! Obviously pretty...but doesn't do a thing for me. Could be an age thing though. Here's my ideal guy: http://www.austin360.com/tv/content/tv/stories/2009/03/rgz-Kyle-Chandler-02.html


Give me a break.

[MMcDonald64]

Give me a break.

Excuse me? Did I do something to offend you?:Shrug:

[BlueLucario]

Actually, this is a good point for the "hot" vs. "not" aspect here. Smeyer made her characters so impossibly, painfully, beautiful that there was absolutely no way to capture it with real actors. Had the nuance part of "sexy" been given a bit more development, then there would have been more to Edward on screen than the Zoolander catalog of "looks"
I bet some readers couldn't really imagine a freakishly beautiful person anyway. When I read the book, I just imagined edward as just a normal looking person.

[Rarri]

Hmn, oddly my 'physical' view of Edward was skewed as the copy of Twilight i picked up had the movie cover, so there was already an image there before i'd started reading; that said, the movie in itself left a lot to be desired, but i have to admit there are few adaptions that i like to begin with.

[BlueLucario]

I have one question, though: Is the movie Edward Cullen really hot?

My answer: HAYL NO!


Am I the only one who think Rob is hot, but the crew made him scary, intense, and a bad actor?
Yes. :ROFL:

Robert is a decent actor, but still butt ugly. The movie was bad, even though it clarified a few unanswered questions I had from the book.

I couldn't imagine Edward beautiful. Either Meyer just told us edwards description instead of showing it, or I'm a bad reader.

[Phaeal]

Mmmmm, Gerard Butler. Obviously the movie makers were going for Sexy-Phantom. In fact, this movie Phantom's facial deformities were very minor compared to other movie Phantoms.

Phantom as best known today, from Lloyd Webber's musical, also benefits from having great songs. "Music of the Night" would make me swoon, too.

Movie-Edward wasn't bad, except for his unfortunately elevated hair. But butt-ugly? Heh, I'd like to live in a world where Pattinson was the example of butt-ugly. Imagine, then, what everyone else would look like.

[fringle]

Heh, I'd like to live in a world where Pattinson was the example of butt-ugly.
Me too.

[BlueLucario]

But butt-ugly? Heh, I'd like to live in a world where Pattinson was the example of butt-ugly. Imagine, then, what everyone else would look like.
Like Wookies.

[James D. Macdonald]

I feel lost in this thread, as I have never read Twilight, never saw the movie and don't even know what the character looks like.

Here you go (http://community.livejournal.com/m15m/19551.html).

[MMcDonald64]

Here you go (http://community.livejournal.com/m15m/19551.html).

Darn, just tried to see it, but it's blocked by my work firewall, but thanks for the link. I'll try again at home later. I saw someone's avatar of Edward though. He looks rather effeminate to me. :::ducks:::

[scarletpeaches]

Here you go (http://community.livejournal.com/m15m/19551.html).

Best part of that:

EDWARD: SAY MY NAME, BITCH
BELLA: EDWARD
EDWARD: NO, THE OTHER ONE
BELLA: ASSHOLE
EDWARD: NO, THE OTHER ONE
BELLA: VAMPIRE, OKAY? VAMPIRE

:ROFL:

[melaniehoo]

Here you go (http://community.livejournal.com/m15m/19551.html).

OMG, this is teh awesome.

[Cyia]

Anyone else sense the presence of impending thread lockage?

[BlueLucario]

Anyone else sense the presence of impending thread lockage?
I hope not.


Oh, and I loved that link. Much more simple and to the point than the actual book.

[Ctairo]

I'm culling from multiple replies for the sake of the OP.

The Edward type is:

Attractive
Unattainable but somehow likes a girl who isn't special (defining "special" as pretty); sees her as special anyway
A bad boy who's not really bad
Powerful (either physically or fiscally – or, better yet, BOTH!)
A gentleman
Protective/has girl's best interests at heart (understand readers will decide if you've successfully conveyed protectiveness rather than creepy, controlling stalker, and know sometimes, your ID shows when you write)
Sensitive/caring
Artistic
Does not smell like feet

[Cyia]

Seriously, though, here's a case study using Carlisle.



Before:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/carlisle.jpg

Meyerized:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/Carlisle2988.jpg

[melaniehoo]

Cyia, I agree. They sucked all the hotness out of Peter. Boo. :(

[fringle]

•Does not smell like feet
No, but he can smell yours from a mile away, so don't ever take your sneakers off around him.

[scarletpeaches]

Cyia, I agree. They sucked all the hotness out of Peter. Boo. :(

I so would, even with that tidemark on his neck.

[BlueLucario]

Seriously, though, here's a case study using Carlisle.



Before:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/carlisle.jpg

Meyerized:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/Carlisle2988.jpg

HAWT! OMG OMG!!!!
First one looks like Aragorn, and the other guy looks like James from Twilight. And don't get me started on how hot James is.


But doesn't Bella smell like feet?

[melaniehoo]

I so would, even with that tidemark on his neck.

I'm afraid to ask, but wtf is a tidemark? Makeup line?

And don't get me started on how hot James is.


Mm-hmmm.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm afraid to ask, but wtf is a tidemark? Makeup line?



Mm-hmmm.

Yes, that's it exactly. Blend, ladies. Use a cosmetic sponge and blend. :D

Mmm, Peter...

[melaniehoo]

Yes, that's it exactly. Blend, ladies. Use a cosmetic sponge and blend. :D

Mmm, Peter...

That's what I figured, rofl.

[scarletpeaches]

You know, if the snooker hadn't just started again I'd be watching this DVD and swooning over Peter "I killer too, I shparklee!" Facinellitidemark.

[melaniehoo]

I treat it as a reward. As I've done nothing today, no DVD.

[scarletpeaches]

Ah, screw it. Peter Facinellitidemark PWNs Stephen Maguire. It's not as if Neil Robertson's still playing.

SP, who totes judges people by their looks.

[melaniehoo]

:D

[Cyia]

HAWT! OMG OMG!!!!
First one looks like Aragorn, and the other guy looks like James from Twilight. And don't get me started on how hot James is.


Blue, you do know those are the same guy right? They're both Peter (something-nelli), the guy who played Carlisle.

[BlueLucario]

Blue, you do know those are the same guy right? They're both Peter (something-nelli), the guy who played Carlisle.
I know. :D

I just noticed.

[scarletpeaches]

Incidentally, I have a few good things to say about the movie (vaguely related to 'how to make a guy hot' in the OP;)):

The kiss between Edward and Bella where he says, "Don't move," is the. Hottest. Kiss. Ever. Well, the build-up. They don't say anything, just breathe and inch closer. Hotness, right there.
The film's very stylish. It just looks good. It's not lush like Interview with the Vampire, but still looks very, very sexy.
The soundtrack rocks. All the music I like. Muse, Linkin Park...even Debussy, lol :roll:
There's more in the movie than the book - in the way of plot, y'know?
Some funny bits, like Bella bringing in Edward while her dad's cleaning his gun. "Bring him in." *locks shotgun*
Peter Facinellitidemark. Dudes, if he was my doctor I'd be throwing myself under a bus, like, every week to have him touch me.Bad things? rpattz cannot act. The script is laughable. There will be three more movies like this.

But hey, my dad (God love him) bought me the DVD, and I quote, "I had to buy two 'cause if you borrowed mine I know I wouldn't get it back." :D

The books are made of suck, but the covers are classy as all get-out and despite smeyer's suckiness as a 'writer', I think she's a very beautiful woman.

That is all.

[Ctairo]

No, but he can smell yours from a mile away, so don't ever take your sneakers off around him.
:roll:
Although, I'm guessing Edward would say Bella's foot funk smells like hydrangeas... He's polite that way.

[fringle]

I agree with a lot of this. Here's my Twilight story...I had been ignoring these books and everything about them, which was really easy for me since I spend most of my time in non-English speaking countries. But, I found myself on an airplane, flying to London and this was the in-flight movie. I watched it and thought, What's all the fuss about? This is kind of cute and enjoyable. Why do people hate this so much? Ok, actually my first reaction was, Cedric Diggory grew up pretty yummy. And my 2nd reaction was, that poor young boy would need much more than a sparkly vampire and a shiny little Volvo to protect him from the sexy-nasty things I would do to him if I found him wandering alone in a darkened ally. But anyway, after seeing the movie, I Kindled all the books and read them in a week long marathon that was every bit as painful as an actual marathon.

And I disagree, I think Pattinson can act. He just had to deliver a lot of clunky-this-is-the-skin-of-a-killer lines and give a lot of "sexy looks" to the camera.

Incidentally, I have a few good things to say about the movie (vaguely related to 'how to make a guy hot' in the OP;)):

The kiss between Edward and Bella where he says, "Don't move," is the. Hottest. Kiss. Ever. Well, the build-up. They don't say anything, just breathe and inch closer. Hotness, right there.
The film's very stylish. It just looks good. It's not lush like Interview with the Vampire, but still looks very, very sexy.
The soundtrack rocks. All the music I like. Muse, Linkin Park...even Debussy, lol :roll:
There's more in the movie than the book - in the way of plot, y'know?
Some funny bits, like Bella bringing in Edward while her dad's cleaning his gun. "Bring him in." *locks shotgun*
Peter Facinellitidemark. Dudes, if he was my doctor I'd be throwing myself under a bus, like, every week to have him touch me.Bad things? rpattz cannot act. The script is laughable. There will be three more movies like this.

But hey, my dad (God love him) bought me the DVD, and I quote, "I had to buy two 'cause if you borrowed mine I know I wouldn't get it back." :D

The books are made of suck, but the covers are classy as all get-out and despite smeyer's suckiness as a 'writer', I think she's a very beautiful woman.

That is all.

[fringle]

I should probably edit that post, but I'm on here goofing off instead of writing bc I've had too much wine to actually write.

[James D. Macdonald]

There will be three more movies like this.


I want to know how they're going to make a movie that features vampires performing a c-section on a pregnant lady with their teeth and still bring it in as PG-13.

[Lyra Jean]

I like Carlisle better than Edward. Do you think if we asked SMeyer she would write a story about Carlisle?

[scarletpeaches]

I want to know how they're going to make a movie that features vampires performing a c-section on a pregnant lady with their teeth and still bring it in as PG-13.

Probably the same way conflict is dealt with in the books - off camera. Bella faints, wakes up, someone else explains to her what happened while she was out cold.

[fringle]

I want to know how they're going to make a movie that features vampires performing a c-section on a pregnant lady with their teeth and still bring it in as PG-13.
There is just no way they will be able to do this. They will have to change so much of Mary Sue got Married that I don't know how they'll ever make this movie.

[fringle]

Probably the same way conflict is dealt with in the books - off camera. Bella faints, wakes up, someone else explains to her what happened while she was out cold.
Yeah, probably. But didn't they just hire a horror movie director to do 3? I'm sure he has some ideas for 4 as well.

[Rarri]

Even Meyer has mentioned before that she couldn't see how they were going to film the last book; that said, i doubt i'd be watching it anyway. Perhaps this is just me, but there's few fantasy films (adapted from books) that i like becase - as Breaking Dawn demonstrates - there are elements that just can't be filmed/created, at least not 'well' and maybe some things are best left to the imagination. Goodness knows if that makes sense or not!

I do think Carlisle's story would be a good read, he was several hundred years old from what i remember, unlike the others who were relatively 'young'.

SP - nice hair btw! - the sound track is pretty good, even the song by Rob :)

[scarletpeaches]

SP - nice hair btw! - the sound track is pretty good, even the song by Rob :)

Ta! :) I'm seriously thinking of ditching the highlights and going back to my own colour.

Also - I'd buy the soundtrack if I saw it in t'shops.

[Cyia]

I do think Carlisle's story would be a good read, he was several hundred years old from what i remember, unlike the others who were relatively 'young'.


Definitely. Or better yet, Aro.

[Cyia]

I want to know how they're going to make a movie that features vampires performing a c-section on a pregnant lady with their teeth and still bring it in as PG-13.

I'd bet they stop with Eclipse. Too many of even the hardcore fans hate Breaking Dawn.

[melaniehoo]

I really like the soundtrack too.

They've changed so many things just in the first book that I'm sure they'll just leave the birth scene out. Too bad.

ETA: But ... but ... but... Cyia, then we'll never see the sexay times.

[fringle]

But ... but ... but... Cyia, then we'll never see the sexay times
Yeah right? A couple thousand pages of foreplay and all I get was a fade to black? No vamp on teen sex? Seriously Meyer, why did you do this to me? Don't make me go to the frozen banana stand and try this out on myself. I need details!

[melaniehoo]

:roll:

[Cyia]

Don't make me go to the frozen banana stand and try this out on myself. I need details!


:Wha: :Wha: :Wha: :Wha: :Wha:

[fringle]

Sorry. Sometimes my filter develops holes.

[Rarri]

Ta! :) I'm seriously thinking of ditching the highlights and going back to my own colour.

Also - I'd buy the soundtrack if I saw it in t'shops.

Decisions, decisions!! The dark look is lovely though :)

The soundtrack's on Napster, worth getting, it's a good mix of music too :)

[MMcDonald64]

So, after reading that LJ link, and getting a crash course in Twilight, my life is complete. ;-)

And that pic of the guy who looks great before the Twilight movie and as plain as Wonder bread after? Well, dang, that first pic is hot. What were they thinking when they uglied him up??? I guess they didn't want a rival for Edward.

[scarletpeaches]

There ain't nothing wrong with a sparkly Peter.

[BlueLucario]

Who's peter?

[witchunter88]

lol...I'm surprised this isn't locked.

[linton]

Excuse me? Did I do something to offend you?:Shrug:
Of course not. I was just jesting about you hot dude.

[scarletpeaches]

Who's peter?

You might wanna read this thread over very carefully.

[BlueLucario]

lol...I'm surprised this isn't locked.
Me too.

I'll be like a hermit and hide.

[BlueLucario]

You might wanna read this thread over very carefully.
Carlisle?

[scarletpeaches]

Well done.

Sparkly Peter = Carlisle.

[BlueLucario]

I want to know how they're going to make a movie that features vampires performing a c-section on a pregnant lady with their teeth and still bring it in as PG-13.
[OFF TOPIC] Uncle Jim, what was your opinion on this book?

[Cyia]

[OFF TOPIC] Uncle Jim, what was your opinion on this book?


You're the kind who poked hornet nests with sticks when you were a kid, weren't you? :D

[BlueLucario]

You're the kind who poked hornet nests with sticks when you were a kid, weren't you? :D
I threw rocks at them.

[Birol]

*sigh* Closing thread now.