Hi all, asking for some input!

[JimPMM]

Hi
I'm just starting the process of developing a bit of software for novel writers to use. One thing I'm very keen on doing is ensuring it's built from the start with features and design which will be of benefit to those using it!
A lot of software I've seen is designed without much input from end users, so the software producer develops what they think the user needs - in the real world things just don't work that way.
And so to my request....
Any ideas at all about general usability, features, things to include, things to omit - anything at all would be greatly appreciated.
The fairly unique aspect of the software is that it will be completely online - you'll be able to use it from anywhere by logging in through a browser and away you go.
I've looked at New Novelist and Dramatica and have got some good ideas where to start on features, but I really want input from anyone who'd be willing to give it.

I look forward to hearing from anyone who's got a couple of minutes to jot down a few 'it'd be great if it could...' ideas.

Many thanks
Jim

[CheshireCat]

It'd be great if it could finish the WIP for me. In my voice and style, of course. Because, you know, I've got other stuff to do.

Anything else you're offering is offered by every word processor out there.

Sorry.

[wandergirl]

If it's just like Scrivener (http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html), but for a PC, I'd be interested.

[FOTSGreg]

Sorry to be facetious, but it would be nice if the program turned my computer on at pre-set times, flashed a message essentially saying "Wake up and WRITE, dumbas$ or else I'll start deleting random files!" and accompanied it with an obnoxious alarm that could not be ignored.

Any variation on the message would be appropriate such as,

"Get off the bed and write"
"Get your as$ in the chair and write"
"Stop munching chips and write"
etc.
etc.
etc.

[Quossum]

I want something that I can use to track characters across several novels. I have this big family saga thing, and a major character in one book is a minor one in another...I'd like to keep track of where everyone has appeared, how old they are during a particular novel, etc.

I also would like to be able to see a list of all the characters I've used. I'm bad about reusing names, then, what do you know, those characters end up in the same book, and it gets awkward.

--Q

[ChristineR]

Let's see...I can push a single button and get typewriter manuscript format, and I don't have to mess around setting things up, and it never, ever decides to switch me into a font I didn't ask for. Plus it does cover pages and chapter first pages automatically.

A combination database/calendar thing, that tracks scenes by page number, word count, revision history, date/time the scene is taking place, characters in the scene, plus notes on what happens and notes on what I think of the scene.

[JimPMM]

Wandergirl - thanks for the link, I hadn't come across Scrivener before. From first glance there may be some ideas I can use there. The main difference being that what I'm looking at doing would be totally online, so PC / Mac won't matter, it's all browser-based.
FOTSGreg - I need something along those lines every day!
Quossom - the tracking of characters across novels is an interesting one, and hadn't occured to me. Definately something that's going on the list! Character lists will be in there, and I'm thinking of a name generator...how much use would that be? The character tracking within a book (and possibly across books) kind of ties in with an idea around timelines and keeping track automatically of what objects (characters, locations, physical objects, etc) are involved in a particular scene or event.
ChristineR - database / calendar ties in with the timeline idea above, including notes, characters, objects, date/time, etc.

This is great stuff - I really appreciate your time in contributing to this.
Oh, and the idea of this request is NOT to promote the software or anything like that - I genuinely would like people's opinions/advice/ideas! It's also a stepping stone to getting that first novel written myself!

Regards
Jim

[JulieHowe]

The fairly unique aspect of the software is that it will be completely online - you'll be able to use it from anywhere by logging in through a browser and away you go.

I do this already by emailing a Word document to myself through Google. That way, wherever it is, there I am. Or something like that.

What I would like to have:

A timeline manager for my characters and my plotline to keep track of births, deaths, marriages, divorces, etc. Also, certain real-life events (such as the kidnapping of Patty Hearst and the unraveling of the Nixon Presidency) are relevant to my WIP. I would love to have a way of managing all of these details.


I'm not sure about the value of a character name generator.

The character tracking within a book (and possibly across books) kind of ties in with an idea around timelines and keeping track automatically of what objects (characters, locations, physical objects, etc) are involved in a particular scene or event.

I can see where the last option would be extremely useful.

[sunandshadow]

Anything else you're offering is offered by every word processor out there.

Sorry.

That makes me think you've never seen newnovelist or dramatica - they are nothing like a word processor.

As for features, I think virtual notecards are a great element I've seen in other software but dramatica lacks. In general what I look for in a writers' aid program is plotting help including theme-to-plot brainstorming tools, plot templates/worksheets that are NOT based on that damned hero's journey... Something like "20 master plots and how to build them" but more in-depth. I've heard interesting things recently about Docter's W-plot worksheet but I guess it's only available to people who attend one of her workshops because there doesn't seem to be a copy of it floating around the internet anywhere. Oh and have you looked at the Storybase software? That's a fairly cool little idea generator, a cut above the average madlibs kind of thing.

Anyway I have a general interest in the development of this type of software, so keep me in mind if you want a co-developer or someone to bounce ideas off of.

[cbenoi1]

I use yWriter. Something to check into if you want to develop something specifically for writers.

-cb

[Matera the Mad]

I hope no one is forgeting the importance of being able to export the data to some format that can be used by normal software. Otherwise it's just another proprietary millstone. The freedom to work offline is just as important -- if not more so -- than the ability to be bound to an unknown server somewhere that might not be as reliable as it is assumed to be.

I guess as far as I'm concerned, it's my work on my computer and/or my usb stick. It's fine to have an on-line backup, but not to depend completely on an online medium.

[Birol]

I find that it's completely online to be a large negative. This puts you in control of the files and, should you decide to close down, shut me out for any reason, or have technical problems on your end, all of my work is lost to me. I'm entirely at your mercy, dependent on you to have done back-ups, give me my files in a format I can use elsewhere should I decide to leave, etc.

This has nothing to do with what type of software you are offering; it's the same distrust I have of any service that's entirely online. If I fail do to timely backups on my computer and lose my data, that's one thing. If you do, that's quite another.

[Stijn Hommes]

I'm not worried like Birol is. The services I use are solid in their backup policies and if they ever have a problem the backup is soon online. I also like some database feature that allows tracking characters across several books. One shouldn't forget spell check, of course.

Software I've seen so far either restrict database entries to one novel, or they require stuff I don't care about to be filled out. I would like full reign on what information is included. Having other database entities like ideas, chapters and scenes so you can pick and shuffle in a brainstorm area by moving them around and connecting them with arrows would be my preference. Basically my brainstorm method, but online.

[NightOwl]

I too am with Birol. I actually see only online as a large negative fact to the software. I'd much rather a stand alone program that runs on my machine. Maybe you can have the online portal too and the software on the computer can sync with the online one when you have a connection.

There's a couple reasons for this. I'm not always at an internet connection. Hotspots are more and more common. But I have my laptop with me if I get an idea I don't want to have to hunt down a hotspot to be able to log in and then work. I like being anywhere and just opening my computer and going away.

The other reason is that internet connections in general are always dropping, if my internet goes down and I have to wait a week for the cable company to come out and fix it I don't want to be separated from my work or being able to write.

I'm always looking for software to help plan/outline tho, maybe there can be a compromise between offline/online? Niches for everything tho, I'm sure there's a lot of people who always have an internet connection handy and would love this.

[Enna]

I use Storymill- you can try a free demo on apple.com for more ideas. I love love love it. Of all the crazy things it can do- and I know I'm not using it to its full potential- my favorite is the blue screen. I can change to window to fill the entire screen, with a blue background and white typeset that's easy on the eyes. It's less distracting to write with this (for me anyway).

Storymill also has different templates- like the Snowflake method, or a submission tracking system- and you can create your own template too. For one project I created a template based off one of Holly Lisle's workshops, it was really cool. :)

[Izz]

I wonder (and this is an entirely serious question which i've wondered for some time) how many people who use novel writing software are published novelists?

[Enna]

I've seen several published novelists mention using Scrivener on their blogs, that seems to be a popular one.

[JimPMM]

Hi
Thanks again for all the responses, it's great for helping to steer the way!
JulieHowe - The timeline manager is a must by the looks of it as lots of people have mentioned it to me, and I really like your idea of integrating it with real-world events as well.
Sunandshadow - thanks for the Storybase heads-up, I'll take a look at it. You've raised a point, along with several other people, about 'the hero's journey' and how everything seems to be geared to it in most software I've seen. It's really important, sure, but I think more flexibility is key. The one common issue I have with current software is that it's too rigid in what you have to have in the novel and how you approach it. Also, thank you for the offer of help - I will more than likely be taking you up on it! Feel free to PM me.
Matera the Mad - export is definately on the list, as you said it's pointless giving people yet another proprietary format. What formats would people like to see?
Birol and NightOwl - I totally see what you're saying. Server reliability aside (I'm looking at multiple-hosting solutions to minimise risk) I can see that completly-online may be a negative point. Maybe provide some way of a reduced-functionality offline version? The attraction of the online solution to me is the access-anywhere, and no need to worry about compatibility or software installation. But your points are very valid and I think it's worth looking at some form of offline.
Enna - sometimes the simplest things are the ones I miss! The ability to change the background and text colour is definately going on the list! Thank you.
Stijn - You've raised a point which leads into one of the main concepts I'm looking at:
A completely dynamic and flexible system. Very little is pre-defined even down to what's in the novel and how you define things. At a high level what I'd like to implement is the ability for the user to define 'objects' - these could be characters, physical objects, locations, whatever - and assign attributes to them. So you don't have to fill out a specific list of attributes for your characters that someone else has decided are important to the writing of the novel - you decide what's important. I think this gives good flexibility. Obviously there are some things which are essential and would not be user-defined, but even these could be at least 'tweaked' by the user.
What's people's feelings on this point?

Once again, I really appreciate your input.
Regards
Jim

[Bufty]

If you wrote (and finished) your novel first you would have a far better idea of the benefit -if any- in what you are contemplating doing.

... It's also a stepping stone to getting that first novel written myself!

Regards
Jim

[Izz]

I've seen several published novelists mention using Scrivener on their blogs, that seems to be a popular one.Scrivener is more a data management tool than a 'novel writing' tool, in my mind. It's main purpose is to be a filing system and provide features that most word processors provide but people don't know how to access.

What i'm really asking about are all the programs that are thrown out there with the catchphrase (in general terms) 'use this to construct the perfect novel' and provide plots-in-a-can and other gimmicks.

[JimPMM]

This is definately not going to be one of those 'magic solutiuon' bits of software. It's a tool / aid which makes the writing process easier and a management tool for the vast amounts of information, ideas, notes, research, times, etc that goes in to writing.

Regards
Jim

[Izz]

This is definately not going to be one of those 'magic solutiuon' bits of software. It's a tool / aid which makes the writing process easier and a management tool for the vast amounts of information, ideas, notes, research, times, etc that goes in to writing.

Regards
JimThen using scrivener as a guide is probably a very good idea :)

[NeuroFizz]

I use WORD. If I can't keep track of the various details, directions, and quirks of the story I'm writing without some special software, something is way wrong.

[Enna]

Of course...after all, writers used to keep track of it all on paper, without Word! :)

When I started writing I used Word, and sometimes Excel for plotting, and it was all good. Storymill just helps me organize a little better- plus, like I said, I love the blue background/white typeset. If Storymill disappeared I would have no problem going back to Word, but I like the organizational help.

[JimPMM]

That's what I'm looking to create - an organisational tool which helps develop and keep track of things, hopefully speeding up the process and allowing the writer to concentrate more on the task of actually writing! It's not intended to replace the user's favourite word processor, or magically write it for you!
There's some great comments and ideas turning up here and I thank you for taking the time. Those who say they wouldn't want something like this - I totally understand what you're saying and do respect the fact that the whole writing process is a very individual thing - there IS no one-size-fits-all solution, and the fact is many people are more than happy with a standard word-processor and the ideas in their head.
I guess I'm trying to provide a little bit of story / data organisational and development help to those who would need it.

Regards
Jim

[Memnon624]

I use Word and a notebook . . . everything else is just a bell and/or a whistle (and an added chance to practice creative procrastination), IMO.

Best,

Scott

[JimPMM]

To a certain extent I do agree with that idea, and that's one thing I really want to avoid with this. The idea is to make it as flexible as it possibly can be so that it becomes something that will improve and aid the writing process for people - if one person doesn't want to use a particular feature they should be able to just turn it off without affecting the rest of it (obviously there's some cross-over in some areas but I want to try to minimise that as much as possible).
Ideally it should become something that really improves the writing process in whichever way the person uses it needs it to.
And yes - I realise it's a tall order!
Regards
Jim

[CheshireCat]

That makes me think you've never seen newnovelist or dramatica - they are nothing like a word processor.

As for features, I think virtual notecards are a great element I've seen in other software but dramatica lacks. In general what I look for in a writers' aid program is plotting help including theme-to-plot brainstorming tools, plot templates/worksheets that are NOT based on that damned hero's journey... Something like "20 master plots and how to build them" but more in-depth. I've heard interesting things recently about Docter's W-plot worksheet but I guess it's only available to people who attend one of her workshops because there doesn't seem to be a copy of it floating around the internet anywhere. Oh and have you looked at the Storybase software? That's a fairly cool little idea generator, a cut above the average madlibs kind of thing.

Anyway I have a general interest in the development of this type of software, so keep me in mind if you want a co-developer or someone to bounce ideas off of.

Yeah, see, all that stuff? And the charts and diagrams to help develop characters and plots and other how-to workshops and programs and books out there?

I didn't have any of that. I had a typewriter. Later on, I had a word processor. I figured out my own process, and so far it's worked for me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I am, therefore, rather superstitious and prefer not to pay much attention to the latest bells and whistles.

But that's just me.

[sunandshadow]

For export formats, I think .rtf, possibly .svg or .jpg if you want a graphical one, possibly .doc or .odt if you want a fancier word processing one, and possibly .xls if you want a spreadsheet.

[Tulonsae]

I use YWriter, and I absolutely love it.

You might take a look at it to see the kind of features it has.

But I wouldn't use online software. I usually write with the internet off or in non-hot spot places. Cause otherwise, I'm too tempted to surf.

[Ardellis]

Another yWriter user here. It's great for keeping things tidy, and Simon's always tweaking it with input from his user mailing list.

[Birol]

I use Word and a notebook . . . everything else is just a bell and/or a whistle (and an added chance to practice creative procrastination), IMO.

Best,

Scott

I think you nailed it, Memnon. This software project sounds like a procrastination shiny. Something Jim can work on and feel like he is accomplishing something, but still not write and not finish his first novel. Procrastination shinies are sneaky that way.

[Enna]

Working on creating software is procrastination, or using it is? I mean, Jim's business is his own, but if you meant using it...I don't know, personally I've been really productive with Storymill. Like I said before, I used to use Word and could go back to it if needed, but I'm not going to turn down some organizational help. And I really don't use anything in the program that I couldn't do with Word/Excel, but it's nicer and neater this way. For me. :)

Of course, some people prefer paper and pen, and typing up the final draft. Absolutely nothing wrong with that...just like there's nothing wrong with using software besides Word. If Jim wants to try his hand at designing something that could potentially help some writer's, what's wrong with that?

Oh, and Jim-- I don't know if someone mentioned this or if you've already thought of it, but I love the annotation feature, where you can highlight a word and open a new text box to keep notes or even pictures. Very helpful.

[Memnon624]

At the risk of sounding like a horrible curmudgeon: every time I think "wouldn't it be cool and so much easier if I had a computer program that would do [fill in the blank]?", I follow it up by recalling that I started writing in the days before home PCs were en vogue. That transitional period of electric typewriters, between manual manchines and rudimentary word processors. If that doesn't do the trick, then I remember two more tiny things: 1. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings longhand and typed it up on a manual typewriter. 2. Robert E. Howard wrote, on conservative estimate, three million words of prose and poetry on an old Underwood.

Yeah, my paltry Word is just fine :)

Best,

Scott

[NeuroFizz]

No one is trying to discourage Jim from developing his software, and he should be commended for asking for help in its design. But I presume he will be SELLING it, or somehow doing it in exchange for money, which means writers will have to shell out for something that will be useful for some people and not for others. For that reason, he should know that there are writers who will be perfectly happy using standard word processing programs and why.

[The Lonely One]

Well one problem you're going to have to face is that some writers are sort of stuck in their ways and habits. I'm one of those. I prefer a minimalist approach to writing, by which I mean I'll type on a typewriter on some crummy program like notepad or on Word Perfect.

If Microsoft hasn't gotten me by now (I'm still shooting cannonballs at that communist "word" program from Corel Island. Screw .doc! Standardize this!) I'm afraid to say it would take a lot to get me out of my already-comfortable groove.

But that does not mean all hope is lost. For I am not old but still crochety and there are plenty out there who would love to streamline and personalize their novel-writing experiences. You're taking a good first step by approaching serious writers about your program idea.

[Harold]

I use yWriter5 (better than any commercial software I've seen) for novels and yEdit2 for trying to meet deadlines and NaNoWriMo.

I would like something specifically for editing with font colors, highlighting, strikeout, and editing symbols. You could 'link-up' with a writer and critique their documents, send your critique (update the document?) with a single-click.

The same system could be used for shared projects and online writing groups, assuming the software links up with a friend system.

It would eliminate all of the emailing back and forth between editor/writer. This would be really exciting, find some close friends from Abwrite and form specialized writing groups.