it is necessary to do an outline before writing the screenplay?

[JustinoXXV]

I've heard that it's best to write an outline, or rather, a treatment of say 10-20 pages before writing your screenplay?

Is this really necessary? All I do is write a brief synopsis, and then go on to writing the screenplay.

So should I do lengthy outlines in the future or do you guys think that it doesn't matter?

[Rock]

I rarely do an outline - complete outline that is - I just jot down a sequence of events of sorts - unless it is about a real person/etc., then maybe a more detailed outline is needed. But, if you know how you want the story to go - and build good characters - most times the characters and their actions/reactions will guide you and you may not stick to the outline that you first created. If it is working for you without a detailed outline - then stick with it - everyone is different.
Have a great writing day!

[The ImagiNation]

me, i always write a sequece of events. basically it just say "Jane walks over her, does this, Bill talks to her about her job". nothing major. just something quick that i can look at again for reference and also get a feel for characters.

[IWrite]

I've heard that it's best to write an outline, or rather, a treatment of say 10-20 pages before writing your screenplay?

Is this really necessary? All I do is write a brief synopsis, and then go on to writing the screenplay.

So should I do lengthy outlines in the future or do you guys think that it doesn't matter?

Justino -

Each writer has his own individual creative process. There is no "best". If a brief synopsis works for you then you should do a brief synopsis. If a full beat sheet works for others - then they should do that. All that matters is that in the end, after all your rewrites you wind up with a well-structured story with well developed characters that change and grow. If you believe you have this in the end, then whatever you are doing is working.

[Presence]

I usually break the story down into a single page summary of plot movement, short character descritions etc then simply dive right into it. In my experience the first draft is simply a work through to gain experience and voice in your characters.

That is followed by an edit with notes and a much slower process of the second draft which is normally quite close to the finished product.

[screenscope]

My usual method is to write the script without any notes at all and tidy it up when I'm through. I usually have a clear idea of the story in my head.

The last one, however, caused me all kinds of problems when it didn't work out. There were enough good ideas to salvage, but it took four major rewrites and several extra months to get there. An outline would have revealed the problems before I started the script, but I was blinded by the relative ease of my previous three screenplays.

I'm writing a detailed 30 page outline for my latest work...

[Boo_Radley]

My process varies, but I can only think of one screenplay for which I wrote a detailed outline before hand. But that was only because it was a twisty, winding murder mystery and I had to keep track of all my red herrings.

[JustinoXXV]

Thanks Iwrite and everyone else who responded on this thread.

[TheZenWriter]

Outlines are very personal and case specific. If you are in the industry and garnering a check, the 'beatsheet' is your bread and butter. That's not to say that all producers and studios need to follow the project, but it adds a bit of comfort for parties as it represents a timeline that can be manipulated.

Also, paid writers may have numerous kettles on the fire, making efficiency a premium. It does no one any good to write a story the 'money people' don't like, an outline can save both parties many headaches.

As for the beat sheet, make it consist of the essentials.

1. Location.
2. Who.
3 What are 'who' doing?
4. What is working against who?
5. Any details and specifics that can add to the scene.
6. Dialogue from the characters that talk about what they want.

As you learn the craft, and some say that part of the job of the screenwriter is to learn what methods best suits the writer, you become more in tune with what makes a good outline.

I for one work off what I like to call a 'beatsheet on steroids.' I write mini scenes that consist of the above list, that may very well have the worst on the nose dialogue a script can handle. My goal is to lay down the railroad tracks for the train. The outline is a loud lumbering, horn blowing, monstrosity.

My recomendation, try a beatsheet of the first act with only the things that push the story forward, then write the first act and see if the story has enough in it that you can outline the second act.

There are people who swear by outlining and trying it could be a very big first step in being able to handle the rigors of writing proffesionally.

Try all the roads, you will be a better writer for it.

TZW

[JustinoXXV]

TheZenWriter, I think I'll take IWrite's advice that whatever works for you best is what works.

I've already written 7 spec scripts. The main issue is that I have to fix problems like poor dialouge and structural flaws.

Beyond that, I already know how the story goes, and what the beats are.

At this stage of the game, I work at one script at a time, until I finish the rewrite, send it off to a script consultant, and then move on to the next project while waiting to get my analysis back.

"All that matters is that in the end, after all your rewrites you wind up with a well-structured story with well developed characters that change and grow. If you believe you have this in the end, then whatever you are doing is working."

That's my end goal, and I think I've already achieved this on 3 of my scripts. In essence, I think my first drafts are my outlines.

My major issue was, I never had any problem with my query letters or synopses landing my reads at decent sized prodcos. Ditto for connection.

However, my SCRIPTS were of poor quality, so write now I'm more concerned about improving the quality of my screenwriting. Writing good outlines, treatments, etc is almost a different skill than writing the screenplay itself and I don't want to lose focus. That's why, unless it is absolutely necessary, I don't want to write outlines. I don't want to take energy off my working on the actual rewrites of my scripts. And that's why I wanted to find out if it is absolutely necessary to do so, because of it was, I would. The overall consensus seems to be it isn't, and of the best experts here (Iwrite) thinks that it isn't.

[Boo_Radley]

My major issue was, I never had any problem with my query letters or synopses landing my reads at decent sized prodcos. Ditto for connection.

However, my SCRIPTS were of poor quality...

I'm pretty much the opposite. I tend to think my screenplays themselves turn out above average (at least, the ones I finish) yet I can't write a query letter or logline to save my life.

[TheZenWriter]

""Writing good outlines, treatments, etc is almost a different skill than writing the screenplay itself and I don't want to lose focus." justino

Wouldn't it be nice to listen to someone and at the same time glean all the knowledge they have through the accePtance of their opinion.

There is no one route to becoming good at something, and it seems you haven't been able to write a good script. If one of your problems is not being able to accomplish that you shouldn't be looking for the way someone else goes about their creation, but what helps you go about making your creation work and it's obvious that you haven't tried to outline efficiently.

Iwrite, as you've stated may be able to juggle while eating, but explaining that she can juggle while she eats shouldn't give you the confidence that juggling while you eat is the correct path.

nothing is set in concrete with screenwriting, and you looking for that answer. as if it is the right one, lends me to believe that you are still at the infancy stage in the creative process, whether it is your tenth screenplay or not.

The question sounds like it came from a person looking for the easy fix, rather than someone who is looking for the answers to unlocking a great screenplay.

Good luck

TZW

[JustinoXXV]

"nothing is set in concrete with screenwriting, and you looking for that answer. as if it is the right one, lends me to believe that you are still at the infancy stage in the creative process, whether it is your tenth screenplay or not."

Dude (or dudette) you're taking things personally because I didn't take your advice.

As it often happens in these threads, people will ask one question, and people will give answers that don't relate to the original question. Go back and reread my original question. And read Iwrite's response to it, which is answering that question.

That's all I asked for. All this other stuff from you is totally irrelevant.

I wasn't going to say this, but I'll say this is the best way possible.

The biggest problem people had with my scripts was rambling dialouge, the fact the characters all tended to speak with one voice, etc. That was the greatest flaw in my work, and no, an outline doesn't fix it.

You, Zen, like to ASSume things without knowing the full picture. But when you ASSume things, you make a you know what out of yourself.

[TheZenWriter]

I'm not taking offense at all to your comments. I think the biggest mistake newbie writers make is not being able to diagnose what may be the problem with their script and how they can fix it.

Dialogue is a function of plot. Plot is a function of structure. To be able to focus on what is the point and focus of the scene directly effects what your characters say and how they say it.

It seems that you are not only a newbie, but very quick to judge who and what is taking offense. I think you are the one who assumed, I merely pointed out a method that may help you dissect the problems that keep cropping up in your scripts.

My assumptions come from reading your posts, and thosands of scripts... But if you are going to keep to your guns, then carry on.

Best,
TZW

[Joe Calabrese]

Although outlines or beat sheets will not help your dialog, but you said Justin: "The main issue is that I have to fix problems like poor dialouge and structural flaws..." They will help with structure.

There is no one true way in developing your script. I do outlines sometimes and other times I wing it. My best script ever was writen "through composed" in which I came up with an idea, stared writing from page one and 10 days later had a first draft.

Do whatever works for you, but more important respect each other for having their way.

BTW Zen, everyone here pretty much knows my credentials. I am curious. You sound like you have been around the block a few times, what are your credits or experiences?

[TheZenWriter]

Joe, hello

I did not take into consideration that my credentials, or lack of them, would be called into question. I happened to check you on IMDB, excuse if I am so ignorant that this is merely an oversight on my part and you are really William Goldman -- but I only saw one possibility. Are the writer who penned lottery in 1999? While that is an achievement, and I'm sure you are working on assignments and other paying jobs, it isn't something I'd know.

I will refrain from either exaggerating my current status, though it would be something of little pence, or saying I'm simply unproduced, and unrepped would discredit my words by pretense.

I'm merely offering up my common, or lack of, 'sense' to anyone who happens upon my posts. I hope I don't seem disingenerous, as I've enjoyed the racor as to now.

Best,
TZW

[IWrite]

Iwrite, as you've stated may be able to juggle while eating, but explaining that she can juggle while she eats shouldn't give you the confidence that juggling while you eat is the correct path.
Zen - how did you know I possess this amazing talent? I only put on my juggling while eating show for my closest family and friends.

And how did I ever wind up in the middle of this? All I said to Justino was that writers all have their own process and there is no one categorical best way.

And welcome, Zen. I like your style.

[Joe Calabrese]

Excuse me Zen, but I meant no malice or harm in asking what your credentials were. You seemed, from you posts, to have been doing this for a while and had some pro experience and I was curious to what your background was. We all know each other to some degree (Iwrite is in development, Dpat is a novelist, etc...) and was wondering if you would introduce yourself. Again, just curious.

Enjoy the forum.

By the way. I am not Goldman and have never professed to be even close. I am a full time writer though as well as a full time dad.

[TheZenWriter]

If only we had the luxury of inflection without those dastardly emoticons, they say much to much.

Developement.... aren't we all, some more slowly then I'd like, but moving forward never the less. I'm here to learn, help, advise and waste valuable time that is precious enough.

Oh, I am nothing without allure of the distraction.

TZW