Question for those working without outlines

[The Rav]

I don't have a technical question about the topic, but more one of curiosity. When you start a novel without an outline, do you often know quite a bit about it, or are you truly writing from the seat of your pants, so to speak? When I write short stories, I almost always just go in with a vague idea of the story--basically an opening and a neat idea--with no clue as to how I'm going to end the thing. I've never tried writing a novel this way, but I was thinking about giving it a go. So basically I'm wondering if you have an idea where you're going before you start, or if you just take your idea and run with it, figuring you'll know when you get there. Have a good one all! :D

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I take my idea and run with it... and hope like all getout that my characters wake up in time to run with me and tell me which way to go.

[KTC]

I sometimes begin with nothing more than a character name that comes to me. As I write I can see into the future and I guess as my fingers are tapping away they begin to chase the vision that is slightly ahead of them. I usually write my first drafts in marathons...48 hours...and then edit them later. I just keep in the stream of the story and hope that my fingers can keep up with the thought processes. Sometimes when I'm doing this the ending will pop into my head when I'm nowhere near the ending. I don't write it down, I just keep it in mind and continue down the path. It's extremely seat of my pants when I write first draft. Like jumping off the cliff.

[scarletpeaches]

I have one or two characters, an ending of which I'm 75% sure (sometimes the intervening events take me to a different one to that which I imagined) and perhaps some conversations or scenes in my mind I'd like to work into the novel.

Nothing written down; it's all in my head.

Once I start writing, scenes start popping up in my head thick and fast and when I'm just about at the end I might write a list in the style of "A happens - Character X does B - C happens, which leads to D - The End". This is because when I'm so close to the end I can taste it I get so excited my head doesn't work properly and this is just to remind myself of what I've still to write and to try to guesstimate how many words I've to go.

But even then, my imagined ending could end up being something else.

[IdiotsRUs]

I start with a character or two, and a problem. The characters dictate how they deal with that problem, and presto! The plot begins. Then I keep making things worse until the end. :D

I often have a scene or two in mind, a vague glimmer of the sort of ending and that's about it.

[Cybernaught]

My first draft has always been my outline, pretty much. Just with a little more flesh.

[ccv707]

I know most of the major events, including the very ending, beforehand, and as I start, I let the words flow. I employ stream of consciousness heavily, so I find outlining a horrible way to go about business. Plus, if I write out an outline, I feel as though I'm restricting the development of the story, as some things might unfold in their own time and at their own place. I have tried to outline before, but I can't stand it. Never will again.

[DonnaDuck]

I outline only after the first draft is written and that's just to make sure I have events, characters, and the like straight when I'm editing and for future reference.

But just starting out, I have an idea, some characters and a few points/places I want to hit in the storyline and I just go. I very much shoot from the hip when I write and fine tune it later. I was never one for outlining and I very much like being a slave to my own work. I follow it, not the other way around.

[jodiodi]

I just write what the voices in my head tell me to write.

For me, it's like I'm watching the story unfold in movie form and I just describe what I see. I never know how it's going to end or what will happen along the way until I get to that part.

I tried outlining, but just had no inspiration when it came to writing. It reminded me too much of a term-paper.

Besides, I like being surprised by the story and my characters grow organically.

[ccarver30]

I just write what the voices in my head tell me to write.

For me, it's like I'm watching the story unfold in movie form and I just describe what I see. I never know how it's going to end or what will happen along the way until I get to that part.

I tried outlining, but just had no inspiration when it came to writing. It reminded me too much of a term-paper.

Besides, I like being surprised by the story and my characters grow organically.

Me too. I have a few key points I know of, but most of the time I sit down and see what happens. My characters surprise me all the time with sh^t I don't even know about until I am writing the scene!!

I can't outline. For me it just seems too dictating... If I have to, I will write down a few things as reminders, but that's it.

[NeuroFizz]

I have the story arc in my head, and a rough idea of what the characters will be like, but all of that is flexible. I do think through each scene before I sit down to write it, but just in terms of who is going to be in it, the basics of what is going to happen, and how it fits in the overall story arc. Does each scene turn out the way my mind thinks it through? Not always, and there have been some incredible surprises. But the kind of pre-thinking I do is like a horoscope passages--they are so general, just about anything that comes out in the writing fits within their limits.

[KellyAssauer]

For me it depends. If I have a particular story to tell, then there is a goal in sight and often I end up getting there to quick and have more to do in the middle. Other times I have no idea what is about to happen, and let the characters tell me their story! This way I get a little of both worlds, structure and chaos!

[eveningstar]

I start with a concept, usually a location, occasionally a character or two and sometimes a few specific scene ideas. Then I just pick a place to start and write.

Often I have to pull the story out of the rough draft and build it up in the second, but that's what works for me.

[Mr. Anonymous]

Sometimes I work with them, sometimes I don't, but I always have a good idea of where I'm starting, where I want to go, and how I'm going to get there. Either way I suppose I have an outline, it's just a matter of whether or not it's written.

[Chauchat Butterfly]

I come up with a premise first then tell the story out of order inside my head before separating the peices and putting them in the right place, changing things around and adding new ideas here and there before I'm mostly satisfied with the story and am ready to write.

Nothing goes on paper before the first draft. If I forget something, like a character's name, then it was unimportant to begin with.

[sadron]

When I start writing, I have some idea already to begin with. I have never used an outline.

[Charlie Horse]

Writing a first draft without an outline really isn't much different than writing an outline before you write the draft. The main thing that separates the two is narrative and dialogue. One has more than the other. In both cases, however, the writer needs to creatively find a way to tell a story. In the long run, it's simply a matter of how one chooses to go about it.

An no, I have no idea what's going to happen with my story from one day to the next. That's the fun part.

[BlueLucario]

Err...

I start out with a character name and run with it. A bit dangerous, but that's what I do.

[SouthernFriedJulie]

Depends. Sometimes the story will pop in my head nearly complete. Even with those the storyline evolves and there are a lot of "Ah hah!" moments.

I can't write with an outline. I feel to chained to it, even though it's just a suggestion. I know it's my story and that the outline is just a guide...but somehow it rubs me wrong.

[barbilarry]

Until my last wip I had never done an outline. I got really bogged down in the middle of this one. Someone on here suggested I try to outline. I did for the last seven chapters. Most were only a few lines of basic iseas for each chapter. I did not stick to the outline completely but it did help me focus and reach the the end. So I guess I use what it takes to get from point a to point b.
Jane

[BravoYankee]

When I started the first draft of my manuscript, all I had was an idea of a plot and the personality of a MC. Everything else just started to flow with the tapping of my keyboard. But, by the end of the first few chapters, I had the rest of my characters (most of them), plot details, and the ending.

[motormind]

I make a very extensive outline of my novel, then put it in the bottom drawer and just start writing. Since I have a pretty good memory most of what I outlined winds up in the end result--but not everything, which is usually for the best.

[RJK]

I start with my MC, a new character and antagonist, then come up with a plot. I start with the actions of the antagonist. This kicks off the MC's actions (he's a police detective). From that point, as each incident occurs, I ask myself "What would I do?" and that's what I write.
I'm having a problem right now because my antagonist is a terrorist and a religious fanatic. I would not do what a religious fanatic terrorist would do, so I'm having trouble thinking like he would. Once I'm able to get into his head (without getting into his head (I'm writing in 1st person)), I'll be able to move on.

[Clair Dickson]

I start with the main problem. I don't know how it's going to turn out, but I know the major point to be investigated in the book. (I write PI stories.) I'm pretty loose with the plot, working it out as I go along. Sometimes I jot down notes if I get an idea about something later in the boook... and sometimes I use those notes. It's all fluid and I write linearly. I kind of keep some sort of premise in my head, working over ideas as to what the overall premise will be, and how to sell it in a query. Nothing concrete, but I try to keep that in mind.

I can't say exactly how well it works. I've got one novel written, one recently begun, and none in the hands of lovely agents. Yet. =)

[Ervin]

To me what vaguely matters is a basic idea of a setting, the antagonist(Not even the conflict really), and what may be the final resolution. Everything else comes just shortly before I write it down.

[Mr. Anonymous]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

[scarletpeaches]

No.

[Ervin]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?Not really, unless I start disliking the entire story. But as long as I feel good about the entire project so far I can always come up with anything.

[NeuroFizz]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

[the following is not a criticism of Mr. A's post. It just stirred the following feelings.]

Here, we are getting into an either/or type of mindset that really doesn't exist. "Free-flow" writers versus outliners is a false dichotomy because it's really a sliding scale in which very few people fall at the extremes. Even hardcore outliners can't fill in an entry for every sentence that is going into a scene--they still have to sit down and write stuff that isn't pre-programmed. And even the most spontaneous of writers will have some idea of what is going to happen in the story, at least in the most proximal part of it.

The two generalizations that drive me batshit are, (1) outlining limits the creativity of the writer, and (2) free-form writers frequently write themselves into corners because they don't know where they stories are going. Both things (creativity loss or writing stall) can and do happen to people from the two ends of the continuum and in all areas in the middle. No one "group" owns such problems, and it's not the type of preparation that produces these problems. Rather, it's in the writers themselves that these problems arise.

[BravoYankee]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Not yet, but I suspect its coming. I can smell the plot holes and inconsistencies abrewing in the final book in my series. Gonna take lots of thinking, lol.

[Mr. Anonymous]

Here, we are getting into an either/or type of mindset that really doesn't exist. "Free-flow" writers versus outliners is a false dichotomy because it's really a sliding scale in which very few people fall at the extremes.

I agree, so far as to say that absolutes are exceedingly rare (aka, virtually non-existent.)

Even hardcore outliners can't fill in an entry for every sentence that is going into a scene--they still have to sit down and write stuff that isn't pre-programmed.

Of course. My outlines are chapter by chapter, but they literally consist of a couple words/a phrase for each chapter. In other words, we might have

Chapter 1 - Intro to Hell

To anyone other than me, the outline would read as complete gibberish. But my point is, that I do have a clear idea of what's going to happen in each chapter, and where I'm supposed to end (so that the following chapter can pick up where it needs to.)

What I was/am genuinely interested in is if people ever found themselves in a position where, for example, they needed a character to get to point B, but they wrote him into prison and have a hard time figuring out a way to get him where the story needs him to be.

The reason I ask is because I was surprised by how many people seemed to write as they go along (and please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to be condescending. One of my favorite writers admits that he makes it up as he goes along.) and interested in whether or not they ever had trouble making ends meet, so to speak.


The two generalizations that drive me batshit are, (1) outlining limits the creativity of the writer, and (2) free-form writers frequently write themselves into corners because they don't know where they stories are going. Both things (creativity loss or writing stall) can and do happen to people from the two ends of the continuum and in all areas in the middle. No one "group" owns such problems, and it's not the type of preparation that produces these problems. Rather, it's in the writers themselves that these problems arise.

Of course the problems are not limited to one group. However, that does not mean they are not more prevalent in a particular group. (An outliner may have a similar "how do I get person a to place b" situation while writing an outline, but when he actually sits down to write the work, that sort of scenario is far less likely to occur.)

I think of it kind of like a chess game. You can take the game turn by turn, in a spontaneous manner, not trying to think of every little possibility, and concentrating on the moment, on what is happening NOW.

On the other hand, you can plot out the entire game in your head, you can move such and such because you know the opponent will respond this way, etc.

In reality, as you've said, it's usually some kind of a combination of the two, but I do see why some people might feel that a set-in-stone plan might be limiting or confining. And likewise, I can see the game not entirely going your way if you're only concentrated on one move at a time.

[DonnaDuck]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Nope. Like I said, I'm a slave to my writing. If I'm at a certain point in a story, I'm supposed to be there. If I need to get to the next point, but I don't have the middle, I find a way but just keep writing. I can always go back and edit out the crap I had to force out to get to that particular point.

And just to play devil's advocate, a spontaneous idea throwing a wrench into an outliner's spokes can just as easily derail their writing as plan-less hip shooters can write themselves into corners. If something happens that they didn't see coming, they could get just as clogged.

[BlueLucario]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?
Yes.

[ChaosTitan]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Not necessarily a corner, no. When I get stuck (I refuse to acknowledge the words "writers block," because saying words give them power over you ;) ), it's more like standing in the middle of an intersection, knowing there are several different directions I can take from here. I'll play with a few possibilities and wait for one to click. It could take minutes, hours, or days.

It isn't a "block" so much as a recoverable stumble.

[ccv707]

No. If something happens you didn't see coming, run with it. That's the idea of making it up as you go.

[BravoYankee]

It isn't a "block" so much as a recoverable stumble.

I'd have to agree with this. "Writer's block" isn't an impenetrable impediment so much as it is an excuse to step back, take some time (a week, 2, 3, a month even) reevaluate, and tackle the problem from another angle or perspective, or simply with fresh eyes and a focused brain, which have probably glossed over and gone to mush after staring at your WIP for so long.

I embrace those days of writers block where I don't know where to take the story because I usually come back invigorated to get started again, usually with some fresh ideas.

[BlueLucario]

I've had those blocks before. Probably one of the reasons why I shoved some projects aside. and By the time I get back to it, I'm still blocked.

[bettielee]

My crazy stuff often starts with just one scene. I don't know who anyone is or what they are doing or where they came from (a boy, riding a sweaty horse, comes clattering into the courtyard in the middle of the night and shouts "The book is gone and the mage is dead!") - sometimes this is the first scene, and I start from there and find all that stuff out. Sometimes it's the middle, and I start writing to get to that point. Sometimes I have a world and a conflict and I sort of know where I'm going. Sometime I have a world and no conflict, and I just get on my dragon and ride.

I say experiment. You might start writing and go no where, or get frustrated and angry and feel lost. I say you should still keep writing, and see if you can write yourself out of what you've gotten into. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't - that's the fun of it.

[bettielee]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Oh, I didn't see this post. Now I shall respond.

HECK YEAH! That's the s#!+ i live for. The fun of writing yourself into a corner is you get to write your way out. Sometimes, writing your way out sucks, but you eventually get out of the corner, write the rest of it, and then on re-write, you get to look at the corner from all angles and decide what needs to be changed: the stuff leading up to the corner, or the stuff that got you out of the corner. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Karen Duvall]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Absolutely, all the time. So I write myself out of it. Sometimes it works, sometimes I have to go back and try again.

But there are pitfalls to watch out for when "writing into the mist." I get some of my best ideas very suddenly, mid scene, or during a crisis within the story. I come up with something that excites me and go "wow, I love it!" And it's spontaneous and it works and it's creative... BUT I have to go back and set it up better. I don't always do that very well, as my agent so helpfully pointed out the other day. So remember to do that. The amazing stuff you pull out of the air still needs structure.

[Clair Dickson]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

If you mean do I sometimes write something that doesn't work and have to delete it? Sure. Just like when I mop myself into the corner, there is no pretty way out. Just do it.

I sometimes get stuck when I don't know where to go next or how to get to the next problem without an awkward jump. Sometimes I have trouble writing because I don't know the characters' motivations or I'm writing them wrong and they're resisting.

It's part of writing. Just as editing is. And going back to make sure that all the "smart quotes" that show up in my manuscript when I type on someone else's computer are replaced with plain " marks.

I have no problem with deleting chunks of my writing. So "writing myself into a corner" is not a problem to me.

It wouldn't matter if I outlined. I've tried that. I've even tried to outline just a couple scenes ahead. Doesn't matter in the slightest. I can't force myself to follow the outline. And most of the time, some character will say something that destroys the entire outline in two lines of dialogue. So, I don't bother. I jot down some ides for the future, maybe. But when I sit down to write, who knows what comes out. It's almost like the story writes itself. (Sometimes, it feels like the words bypass my consciousness and just come out onto the screen. It's kind of fun.)

Instead of spending my time outlining, I spend my time rewriting scenes. Neither is inherently right. But pantsing is right for me. (Besides, since I write mysteries, I can sometimes turn those "wrong" scenes into red herrings. :D)

[Charlie Horse]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Looks like everyone's taking a crack at this so, not to be left out, here's my take.

I write in a round room, so sometimes I find myself writing in circles, but never into a corner. Eventually I get dizzy and have to sit down and close my eyes for awhile until it wears off. Then I get back on track.

[Quossum]

The two generalizations that drive me batshit are, (1) outlining limits the creativity of the writer, and (2) free-form writers frequently write themselves into corners because they don't know where they stories are going. Both things (creativity loss or writing stall) can and do happen to people from the two ends of the continuum and in all areas in the middle. No one "group" owns such problems, and it's not the type of preparation that produces these problems. Rather, it's in the writers themselves that these problems arise.

QFT. The outline / no outline debate always gets me a bit squinchy because there are often great feelings of one way being "better" than the other coming from the staunchest proponents of the other group. Certainly one way could be better...for a particular writer.

I do think a writer having struggles with the method they're using should give the other a try and see how that works for 'em.

--Q

[bettielee]

Yes, Quossum. And I am not just saying that cuz you think I'm quotable. :hooray: (I know, I know, get over yourself, bluefairy girl...)

But I say, can't we all just get along? Writing is such a lonely gig most of the time - the same thing won't work for everybody, and at the end of the day you are alone at your desk with the voices in your head. They give me enough trouble...

[Karen Duvall]

QFT. The outline / no outline debate always gets me a bit squinchy because there are often great feelings of one way being "better" than the other coming from the staunchest proponents of the other group. Certainly one way could be better...for a particular writer.

I do think a writer having struggles with the method they're using should give the other a try and see how that works for 'em.

--Q

That's funny, isn't it? That someone would think one is better than the other. But it is interesting to talk about because processes are revealed and truth be told, purists are rather rare. I could be wrong about that, but I'm a reformed outliner so there's always a bit of outlining that still goes on throughout the course of writing a book. For me, it's just a few scenes ahead of wherever I happen to be when I think about it. I no longer outline the entire book in advance. That didn't work for me, but for others, I know it's the perfect charm. And that's as it should be. :)

[TTCleveland]

I never thought outlines were much fun. That's just me. ^.^

I've outlined all of my works, but 90% of the time I don't follow my own directions. I'm not sure why I write them at all....

-Travis

[jy'lenn]

I've always hated outlines... I'm all for details. I finally forced myself to sit and write the stories from the beginning whereas I used to do it piecemeal then put it all together at the end. THAT was a royal pain in the arse and didn't get my anywhere.

It depends on the person and how they're programed to think. me, I'm unstructured and chaotic, hence why outlines don't work. :D

everyone gets writer's block at some point.... you just have to work past it and keep plugging along.

just my thoughts on the issue... as random as they may be!

[jodiodi]

I like seeing where my stories are going. It's almost as good as reading an unknown work: I get surprised by the twists and turns.

After following this discussion for a while, I decided to try to outline one of my wips that hasn't gone very far. It wasn't very successful.

I. Characters Appear in a Location
II. Stuff Happens
III. Some people might die
IV. Characters fix whatever's wrong.
V. Whatever happened is Over

That's the best I can do.

[Mr. Anonymous]

Thanks for all the responses guys, they were all very interesting to read.

[White-Tean]

What I'm curious about is, for the writers who make it up as they write, do you ever find yourself in a writers-block sort of position where you've written yourself into a corner?

Yes. But that's not too bad, I mean, it's kind of a good thing (at least for me) when I've realised my story has taken me somewhere I didn't initially expect to go, because I think (for me) that’s better than having the story stay within my very narrow initial plans... but of course it means a lot of rewriting.

I don't really mind extensive rewriting though - I'm not someone who gets very emotional about "killing my darlings" and overhauling things. I suppose that's also because when I first get the acorn from which I start the story, it really doesn't contain much:
i - a general sense of the story
ii - a general sense of the main character (and their looks, but no names)
iii - a general feel for the world, although the level of technology is usually indeterminate, as is anything political going on - I wing that.
iv - I usually know what their job is, because in my stories usually someone's job is what they're skilled in so it's involved in the story.

In the initial writing of my story I’ll very quickly come up with the other main or secondary characters, but usually not before I’ve at least started a bit of writing – and it’s not like I even rush to start writing, I really just don’t figure things out until I start moving things around on paper.

So yeah, if I paint myself in a corner with my discovery writing, I can be pretty unattached about majorly overhauling things to get myself out of it because there is very little specific in my story that I'm attached to. I'm only really set on the overall feel of things.

[Charlie Horse]

I like seeing where my stories are going. It's almost as good as reading an unknown work: I get surprised by the twists and turns.

After following this discussion for a while, I decided to try to outline one of my wips that hasn't gone very far. It wasn't very successful.

I. Characters Appear in a Location
II. Stuff Happens
III. Some people might die
IV. Characters fix whatever's wrong.
V. Whatever happened is Over

That's the best I can do.

You might add:
VI. In the end your MC is richer for the experience.

Just a thought.

[MDei]

Most of the time, I think of random scenes that have nothing to do with anything and then say "hey, that would make a nice novel" and I get to writing. Usually I have that scene and I know exactly how it's going to end so I have something to write up too.

A book I'm itching to write, but keeping myself from doing until I finish another work is one I came up with in a daydream in school. I tossed it in my head for a few months and then one of my muses pokes me in the head and says "Like hello! This is novel material. Right up you alley." So no. No outlines. I justsit and right and think about it in my head when I'm cooking or cleaning or doing school work...

[jodiodi]

You might add:
VI. In the end your MC is richer for the experience.

Just a thought.


Ah, but sometimes the MC isn't richer for the experience. The MC may die, may go mad and end up in an institution or wandering the streets. One of the problems I have when writing romance is the HEA ending. I've always done tragedy much better than comfort.

[White-Tean]

Ah, but sometimes the MC isn't richer for the experience. The MC may die, may go mad and end up in an institution or wandering the streets. One of the problems I have when writing romance is the HEA ending. I've always done tragedy much better than comfort.

Seconded.
Not only can a character go through the experiences of a story without being richer for it, it's also possible for the a character's journey (I'm not talking physical) to take them right back to where they were at the begining. Sometimes stories like that are more interesting, although stories which take characters to unexpected places (which can be where they started) or in unexpected ways are the more common option (assuming we're not writing predictable stories).

I mean, I'd be hesitant to say my MC winds up richer (emotionally, at least) at the end of the novel. I mean, she's kind of in a relationship at the end of it but her life isn't really richer for it (she doesn't need other people, though this other person does fascinate her) the way she plans things and her perspective on things is the key change. It's not really Happily Ever After, it's just After.

[cooeedownunder]

I am a bit like Ol' Fashioned Girl - I don't outline, and a word, a sentence, a smell, a handsome fellow, an attracitve woman, or for that matter an unattractive subject or something takes hold of my imagination and I move full stream ahead, and hope that somewhere the charachters tell me where I need to change stations or cross the river, lake, mountain or whatever.

My imagination drives my story, not the history, (I feel someone just slapped me) and it is my charachters that take me on the adventure, and after they have taken off on that adventure, I look for ways to make it logical in history that my charachters would go were they dream to venture.

[ccv707]

That line about the MC being richer for the experience is a reference to a joke from Family Guy, if I'm not mistaken. Hilarious scene between Stewey and Brian.

Not to get off topic...

[shawkins]

I tried using an outline when I was working on my first book, but I didn't like it. It felt like I was doing homework, not having fun, and that showed in the writing. I spent a lot of time rushing through scene A to get to scene B which was what I really wanted to write.

The second time out I just wrote whatever scene occurred to me to write over the course of a year or so. When I had a more or less complete draft, I spent a couple weeks stitching the pieces together. That led to better productivity, and probably more vibrant writing in some spots, but the overall product was more or less incomprehensible--abrupt transitions, unclear motivations, and lots of "wait-who-is-this-dude-again?" types of problems.

The third one was a special case. I banged out a draft in about two months, doing the chapters & scenes in more or less random order. It had some of the same symptoms--particularly abrupt transitions--but it was done quickly enough that the consistency and comprehensibility issues didn't show so bad.

My current WIP I'm making an effort to do things in more or less sequential order using a very loose outline. I'm hoping this will help the flow and transitions. Also, it finally occurred to me that if I'm bored with writing scene X, maybe it's because scene X, as conceived, just isn't very good.

[DonnaDuck]

everyone gets writer's block at some point.... you just have to work past it and keep plugging along.


Not true. This is probably opening up a can of worms because I've seen just how heated the debate on writers' block can be but I'll just say I've never experienced writers' block in the sense that no matter what I did, I just couldn't write. That's just not a feasible option for me. I've had moments when I didn't feel like writing which, to me, are not blocks. That's just me being lazy. If I get stuck on something, I push through even though what I may be writing is crap. That's what the editing process is for. Some people don't write like that so they hit roadblocks more often.

But no, not everyone gets writers' block.

[wannawrite]

I walk around for a few days in a haze, until it is all plotted out in my mind. Then I write like a frenzied lunatic. Then I call my daughter at college and have her tell me that I am still sane. Then I write some more. I do keep a few notes at my elbow, things that HAVE to be worked into the plot, but mostly, it just rolls around in my head.

[Blue Sky]

When I started reading Uncle Jim's novel thread, it got me fired up. I created a word document "my first novel," looked at the blank doc and saw a bald guy standing in a cave looking at a big steel door. The writing flowed easily, me trusting and writing whatever came.

When I slowed or stopped, it was because I had failed to write down what came, regardless of how unrelated or ridiculous it seemed.

After years of writing about "inner experiences" in relation with life--incredibly challenging to share clearly--I know to trust myself, to trust the Muse. Although a lot of folks seem to have a guy or gal muse, mine feels like the Muse. Whatever that means.

It's early in novel land for me. If I get to the end and find things beyond the reach of editing, I have a plan.

I'll print the draft, crumple each page, and create a pile outside--a funeral pyre! After all, I'm having fun and I'll learn about writing novels regardless. My cat and I can eat some tuna in honor of the departed teacher novel and I'll light the pyre. At night, of course.

The fire will burn only because I did not trust the Muse and write what came no matter what.

Great thread, lots of thought-provoking comments. Thanks.

[It's-Magic!]

I start off with no more than the main character and the genre, for draft 1. I believe you don't control your own life, so I don't control my characters' lives. I just start writing and it comes out, I rule out the trashy stuff later and patch it to make it more realistic. I just start writing, the idea is etched into my head, I just don't know it, and if the idea is really there, it'll come through no problem, if not, I need to think about it more.

[bettielee]

I'm lovin' this thread. You see, we all work in mysterious ways... I don't feel like such a psychopath.

[BravoYankee]

I just pinpointed the exact reason why I don't use outlines...

I've written more than enough outlines in school, and we all know how school constricts creative thought. If I'm gonna write, even though I write historical stuff, I can't associate it with school whatsoever, or else I would just think of it as homework, and boy do I hate homework.

[scarletpeaches]

I start off with no more than the main character and the genre, for draft 1. I believe you don't control your own life, so I don't control my characters' lives. I just start writing and it comes out, I rule out the trashy stuff later and patch it to make it more realistic. I just start writing, the idea is etched into my head, I just don't know it, and if the idea is really there, it'll come through no problem, if not, I need to think about it more.

And I believe the exact opposite, which is why I give my characters free will too.

[Straka]

I don't outline but I write with a certain direction in mind. I think "Where do I want my MC to be (emotionally and physically) by the mid point of the WIP?" Then I figure out as I write how to get there.

[Charlie Horse]

That line about the MC being richer for the experience is a reference to a joke from Family Guy, if I'm not mistaken. Hilarious scene between Stewey and Brian.

Not to get off topic...

Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. It's where I got my sig.

That scene should be required viewing for every would be novelist. Classic.

[Ervin]

I just pinpointed the exact reason why I don't use outlines...

I've written more than enough outlines in school, and we all know how school constricts creative thought. If I'm gonna write, even though I write historical stuff, I can't associate it with school whatsoever, or else I would just think of it as homework, and boy do I hate homework.
Education systems around the world are in the toilet. You may be interested in listening to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI&feature=channel_page

[Feidb]

I've never EVER written a novel using an outline. To me that just sucks the spontaniety out of the story.

I know where to start, and where I want to end. That's it. From that first sentence, the rest of the story is a total adventure. I get very excited as I write, as things come to me. I hope that translates to the reader. Well... I hope it will one day if I ever get published!

I always like to bring up the example of this female writer I heard about. She would take up to a week on each paragraph, just to make sure it was perfect before she went on to the next one. Don't know if she outlined or not, but that is a sure way to suck all the creativity out of something!

The hardest part, besides the query letter and synopsis, is all the editing. You edit, and you edit, and you keep on editing. However, never in any of the 9+ novels that I've written have I had to change or delete a major section of the story, so, grammar not withstanding, I guess writing by the seat of my pants works just fine.

[ccv707]

I've never EVER written a novel using an outline. To me that just sucks the spontaniety out of the story.

I know where to start, and where I want to end. That's it. From that first sentence, the rest of the story is a total adventure. I get very excited as I write, as things come to me.

I always like to bring up the example of this female writer I heard about. She would take up to a week on each paragraph, just to make sure it was perfect before she went on to the next one. Don't know if she outlined or not, but that is a sure way to suck all the creativity out of something!


Agree with you on all three points. Except I outlined my last completed ms before starting it (my first and will be the only time I do it), and it definitely hindered my ability to let the story unfold at its own pace.

[dreamsevolve]

I sometimes begin with nothing more than a character name that comes to me.

Haha, totally. Give me a good title and I'm all in!