Collaborations? What is there to lose?

[curious1980]

I recently asked a writer on here if he would like to collaborate on a project. Since he's a screenwriter and I'm not (I write stage plays), I thought my story, my skills, and his skills would make a good combination. Unfortunately, he said (in other words) no. I wasn't surprised. On the other hand, I was surprised when he said he wouldn't know how to go about collaborating. A nice excuse for the common rejection if you ask me. How someone could not know how to collaborate with someone else goes over my head. But anyway, the reason why I'm posting is to ask why people don't to collaborate? Is it because they're greedy and want all the credit? Is it because most collaborations don't work? I once was told that people don't collaborate because they have nothing to gain from it. How is that possible? The gain is the creation of a wonderful story that can entertain an audience. At least that's how I see it. How about you?

[Judsia]

I wouldn't know how to collaborate, either. But that is because I'm such a control freak. Writing to me is an internal and private process. Having to bat around ideas with someone else's conflicting views would be painful and stressful. I'm just more comfortable arguing with my characters in my head than with a writing partner. I can't even write when someone else is in the room! Far too distracting....

Some people thrive while collaborating on a story. I have a freind who only writes with a group of people, but can't write on his own. Go figure.

[curious1980]

I wouldn't know how to collaborate, either. But that is because I'm such a control freak. Writing to me is an internal and private process. Having to bat around ideas with someone else's conflicting views would be painful and stressful. I'm just more comfortable arguing with my characters in my head than with a writing partner. I can't even write when someone else is in the room! Far too distracting....

Some people thrive while collaborating on a story. I have a freind who only writes with a group of people, but can't write on his own. Go figure.


That's interesting. I'm sort of like your friend. I get creative ideas by talking to someone or interacting with people. I love when two people can bounce ideas off of one another. I couldn't see collaborating as a bad thing. If! You had the right person to collaborate with. I imagine that being the hardest obstacle. Finding someone that looks at writing in similar ways would be like finding the right person to marry. But, after you find that right person, love (or in this case...great art) can grow and blossom.

[Cyia]

Ideas are worthless. Plenty of people approach writers with that same. "I have an idea! I'll tell you and you write it!" enthusiasm, but it's not the way it works.

And the idea that someone refuses to "collaborate" because they're "greedy and don't want to share the credit" is not only insulting, but immature and amateur on your part. If you want to take a shot at screenwriting, learn the craft and do it, don't seek out someone to do the work for you and call it "collaboration". It's difficult enough to get something sold to a prod. co. on your own, add another writer to the mix and you've just given a prospective buyer an extra headache it's not worth it for them to take on. They want to deal with one person, not a group.

When you put a name on a screenplay, that doesn't necessarily mean that's how the "written by" is going to look on the final movie. The writer's guild determines that and the more names they have to weigh, the more difficult the process is. Each person who works on the screenplay (because even if you sell it, others are going to rewrite it) has to be weighed for their contribution.

That's why you get things like:

Written by:
Bob & Dave (both Bob and Dave worked as a tem)

and

Written by:
Bob and Dave (the arbitration committee determined that they contributed equally, and independently to the shooting draft.)

if it's changed a whole lot, you might even be reduced to:

Story by:
Bob

This is one major reason it's not profitable to "collaborate" with other unknown writers.

[curious1980]

Ideas are worthless. Plenty of people approach writers with that same. "I have an idea! I'll tell you and you write it!" enthusiasm, but it's not the way it works.

And the idea that someone refuses to "collaborate" because they're "greedy and don't want to share the credit" is not only insulting, but immature and amateur on your part. If you want to take a shot at screenwriting, learn the craft and do it, don't seek out someone to do the work for you and call it "collaboration". It's difficult enough to get something sold to a prod. co. on your own, add another writer to the mix and you've just given a prospective buyer an extra headache it's not worth it for them to take on. They want to deal with one person, not a group.

When you put a name on a screenplay, that doesn't necessarily mean that's how the "written by" is going to look on the final movie. The writer's guild determines that and the more names they have to weigh, the more difficult the process is. Each person who works on the screenplay (because even if you sell it, others are going to rewrite it) has to be weighed for their contribution.

That's why you get things like:

Written by:
Bob & Dave (both Bob and Dave worked as a tem)

and

Written by:
Bob and Dave (the arbitration committee determined that they contributed equally, and independently to the shooting draft.)

if it's changed a whole lot, you might even be reduced to:

Story by:
Bob

This is one major reason it's not profitable to "collaborate" with other unknown writers.

I some what agree. I don't think ideas are worthless. Everything starts with an idea. Now to go to someone and say, "I come up with the ideas and you write" is taking the lazy route. That's not how I was thinking about it. I was thinking about I write, you write, WE come up with ideas to enhance the plot/story-line.

"And the idea that someone refuses to "collaborate" because they're "greedy and don't want to share the credit" is not only insulting, but immature and amateur on your part.": I was simply asking questions to get different opinions...not stating facts. I do believe it is possible. Some people (and note I did say 'some' not 'all') could be that greedy/selfish. It's foolish to put that much trust into people you don't know and say they're not. Just because you and your circle of friends aren't does not mean that everyone isn't. But! That was just a question to provoke an idea for reasons.

"If you want to take a shot at screenwriting, learn the craft and do it, don't seek out someone to do the work for you and call it 'collaboration'.": This is where we see eye to eye. I completely understand that. Unfortunately, because so many people do approach writers with the self-made mentality "you do most the work and I do nothing", writers shy away from collaborating.

Once again, when I think of collaborating I think of it being 50/50 right down to crossing T's and dotting I's. Amongst other things, collaboration would be the best way to learn the craft. If you're an amateur who better to be taught by than someone who already knows the craft? Some people can be self-taught...some can't. For those who can't, I see collaborating being a great way to learn. And don't think I see it as being a one way street with the amateur getting all the gain. People learn from others everyday. Therefore, I believe both parties could gain something out of the situation. Obviously, you (and most writers) don't agree. This might be because I'm looking at it as far as teamwork. You (and other writers) are looking at it more deeply.

[wordmonkey]

Since I'm not the writer you asked to collaborate, I can only guess at the reasoning, but here is the way I would approach something like this.

Are you paying me? If you are, I'll write whatever you want. And rather than thinking that is a REALLY mercenary attitude, in truth that's how a screenwriter makes a living. Sure, they might toss out the odd spec project from time to time, but most of the working guys and gals get hired to writer or rewrite someone else's project.

If you aren't paying me, what's in it for me?

And I don't mean on a money level, I mean creatively. If you aren't gonna make the movie, or you don't have the contacts to get it made, and you aren't paying me, I have a massive list of ideas that I want to explore and write. I have comedy, horror, drama... and themes out the whazoo, that I can work with. Why do I need YOUR idea?

I know YOU think it's awesome. And in truth, it might well me. But there's also a chance you're like the parent who thinks their quazimodo-baby is gorgeous... and super-smart to boot.

What you should do is thank this writer. Thank them their time in considering the idea of collaborating with you. Thank them for the time the spent looking at your work (if you showed it - if you didn't, that's likely a good a reason for not wanting to work with you... "I have a great idea I'll share when you agree to work with me" is a guaranteed turn off). But mostly, thank them for introducing you (in a VERY gentle way - and way more gentle than most) to the recurring theme of this profession.

Rejection.

And truth be told, if you wanna do this and see your vision go to the page and then to the screen, you need to just do the work yourself. You'll ultimately find it way more rewarding.

At the moment you are coming off (and I am not for one minute suggesting this is the case - more likely just the inevitable lack of nuance we all face on the interwebs) like the writer in question should have been flattered by your way too generous offer. That kinda suggests you aren't that great to collaborate with (which again, is probably wrong). You just have to be aware that people know people and trashing anyone, even in a subtle manner, is not a good way to progress in the business.

Good luck with your script. I hope you take the time to learn the specifics of scriptwriting, work that puppy up and sell it. Because ultimately, when it gets to the Oscars, two writers get half the time to deliver their acceptance speech... you might be glad of those extra few seconds to thank the folks of AW for their wisdom and support through the early days. :D

[zeprosnepsid]

http://johnaugust.com/archives/2009/when-writing-teams-break-up
http://johnaugust.com/archives/2009/partners-disagree

among other reasons...

[wordmonkey]

Some people can be self-taught...some can't. For those who can't, I see collaborating being a great way to learn. And don't think I see it as being a one way street with the amateur getting all the gain. People learn from others everyday. Therefore, I believe both parties could gain something out of the situation. Obviously, you (and most writers) don't agree. This might be because I'm looking at it as far as teamwork. You (and other writers) are looking at it more deeply.

If you want to LEARN, take a class.

Because if you are learning through the process, the other writer is carrying you. That isn't 50:50.

Don't get me wrong, we should always be learning and evolving, and I can see that a collaboration could expose a writer to a new way of thinking etc. But that's not what we're talking here. If you need to learn, then we're back to me writing your idea while you get up to speed. And I can do that faster on my own with my ideas and no one to slow me down.

Don't mean to come off so hard-ass, but there really is only one way to do it.

And that's to do it. Because you'll learn from YOUR mistakes. You won't learn from the mistakes I made three years ago.

[curious1980]

Since I'm not the writer you asked to collaborate, I can only guess at the reasoning, but here is the way I would approach something like this.

Are you paying me? If you are, I'll write whatever you want. And rather than thinking that is a REALLY mercenary attitude, in truth that's how a screenwriter makes a living. Sure, they might toss out the odd spec project from time to time, but most of the working guys and gals get hired to writer or rewrite someone else's project.

If you aren't paying me, what's in it for me?

And I don't mean on a money level, I mean creatively. If you aren't gonna make the movie, or you don't have the contacts to get it made, and you aren't paying me, I have a massive list of ideas that I want to explore and write. I have comedy, horror, drama... and themes out the whazoo, that I can work with. Why do I need YOUR idea?

I know YOU think it's awesome. And in truth, it might well me. But there's also a chance you're like the parent who thinks their quazimodo-baby is gorgeous... and super-smart to boot.

What you should do is thank this writer. Thank them their time in considering the idea of collaborating with you. Thank them for the time the spent looking at your work (if you showed it - if you didn't, that's likely a good a reason for not wanting to work with you... "I have a great idea I'll share when you agree to work with me" is a guaranteed turn off). But mostly, thank them for introducing you (in a VERY gentle way - and way more gentle than most) to the recurring theme of this profession.

Rejection.

And truth be told, if you wanna do this and see your vision go to the page and then to the screen, you need to just do the work yourself. You'll ultimately find it way more rewarding.

At the moment you are coming off (and I am not for one minute suggesting this is the case - more likely just the inevitable lack of nuance we all face on the interwebs) like the writer in question should have been flattered by your way too generous offer. That kinda suggests you aren't that great to collaborate with (which again, is probably wrong). You just have to be aware that people know people and trashing anyone, even in a subtle manner, is not a good way to progress in the business.

Good luck with your script. I hope you take the time to learn the specifics of scriptwriting, work that puppy up and sell it. Because ultimately, when it gets to the Oscars, two writers get half the time to deliver their acceptance speech... you might be glad of those extra few seconds to thank the folks of AW for their wisdom and support through the early days. :D


"At the moment you are coming off (and I am not for one minute suggesting this is the case - more likely just the inevitable lack of nuance we all face on the interwebs) like the writer in question should have been flattered by your way too generous offer.": You must have put a tone to my voice that (lord knows) I didn't have. Since I'm not sitting on Oscars I know no one will be flattered by me suggesting to collaborate with them. That's not something I'm looking for. Since the person I asked to collaborate with didn't explain (and seem to use a poor excuse) why he didn't want to collaborate I posted this to get other peoples opinions about collaboration. Also (as I put in the previous post) someone told me that a writer has nothing to gain from it. I couldn't see how that would be possible...until posting. Once again, I was thinking of it on a teamwork, bouncing ideas off of one another, happy and learning experience. I must live in a fantasy world lol. Cause I seem to be the only one thinking of it like that.

"What you should do is thank this writer. Thank them their time in considering the idea of collaborating with you. Thank them for the time the spent looking at your work (if you showed it - if you didn't, that's likely a good a reason for not wanting to work with you... "I have a great idea I'll share when you agree to work with me" is a guaranteed turn off). But mostly, thank them for introducing you (in a VERY gentle way - and way more gentle than most) to the recurring theme of this profession.": I totally agree. I did thank him. Although he didn't take time to consider it, he didn't look at my work, or give me the time of day.

[Cyia]

I totally agree. I did thank him. Although he didn't take time to consider it, he didn't look at my work, or give me the time of day.


I'm seriously curious now. Did you just cold contact someone you didn't know and say "Hey, I've got an idea - let's work together"? Or is this someone you already knew?

[curious1980]

If you want to LEARN, take a class.

Because if you are learning through the process, the other writer is carrying you. That isn't 50:50.

Don't get me wrong, we should always be learning and evolving, and I can see that a collaboration could expose a writer to a new way of thinking etc. But that's not what we're talking here. If you need to learn, then we're back to me writing your idea while you get up to speed. And I can do that faster on my own with my ideas and no one to slow me down.

Don't mean to come off so hard-ass, but there really is only one way to do it.

And that's to do it. Because you'll learn from YOUR mistakes. You won't learn from the mistakes I made three years ago.

I see what you're saying. I was giving that person another viewpoint to their opinion. Showing him/her a reason why collaborating could be beneficial as far as learning. Not saying that's how it is...just saying that's how it COULD be or how I see it.

If a person can't write at all that would slow the "pro" down. If a person was a good writer just not a good screenwriter how would that slow them down? Most of the time a person can write dialogue but has trouble when writing action lines...or vise versa. I don't see that as carrying someone if they're writing half of the story and you're writing half.

You didn't come off as a hard-ass. This post was put up so that people could give their opinions to help me see something other than my own views. I'm oblivious to the negative side of collaborating so I wanted people to share with me what the negative sides are.

[Kitty Pryde]

Holly Lisle (prolific fantasy author of awesomeness) said it best on her website (http://hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/faqs11.html#3 ):

If I supply the idea, would you collaborate with me on a book?

No. But we can do it the other way if you'd like. Here's an idea. The hero is a guy who wakes up one morning to discover that his wife is gone and there's this little doll lying on her side of the bed. No note, no nothing -- just the doll. No sign of a break in, no sign of anything missing except his wife, no sign of violence. He's scared, he can't figure out what has happened . . . and I'm not sure what happens after that.

You take that idea, and spend nine months or a year or whatever working it into a finished novel, and sell it, and when you're done, credit me with coauthor status because I came up with the idea and send me half of your advance and half of your royalties from now until the end of time. Also half of all subrights sales.

Or better yet, don't. You're welcome to the idea -- if you use it and sell it, God bless you and I hope you enjoy the money. You don't owe me anything. But now I hope you can see why writers aren't thrilled when someone asks them this question.

[icerose]

When I was younger and more stupid (about two years ago) and when I hadn't broken into anything in the industry, I got involved in a collaboration project. It turned out to be me 99.9% of the work and them 0.1% of the work. I'm working on the latest rewrite (stupid me entered into a contract) and will get further feedback. When it's all said and done if it's ever sold I'll get a whopping 35%. Wow, now that was so worth my time and effort...

So far what I have gotten out of it is industry pro notes from readers from two different big studios and a massive learning experience. This did not come at all from the so called "story guy" who has sat on his ass demanding the latest and greatest drafts all the while making rude comments on how long it's taking and why it isn't sold by now.

I would shoot myself before entering into this kind of agreement again.

Even if as you say you bounce ideas back and forth, you're still not even doing 10% of the work and still demanding 50% out of it. A true collaboration is where you get off your ass and write 50% of the story at an equal writing level of that of your partner. Chances of this happening outside of an actual professional relationship set up by producers? Oh about .00001%.

Sorry if I come off irritated, this subject just does that to me.

The only way you could offer 50% is to give your idea and your bounce offs, and then have all the connections needed for an actual sale, or you know, actually pay the writer.

[Kitty Pryde]

Well, you said:

Since he's a screenwriter and I'm not, I thought my story and his skills would make a good combination.

Which sounds awfully like an "I come up with the idea you do the work situation". If you don't have the skills, you aren't a collaborator. You're looking for someone to do the work. What people are trying to tell you in this thread is that brilliant ideas are worth about a dime per thousand. I posted that FAQ as a decent explanation of why established writers don't want to 'collaborate' in this way.

If you mean something different when you say collaborate, why don't you tell us what you mean precisely? :)

[Cyia]

The fact is, there's no real way to collaborate in the way you seem to take the meaning. Each person will have their own ideas as to what happens next and what makes each character tick. Given the basis of that premise, there are many possible scenarios for a story.

1. The doll is the man's wife transformed.
2. A serial killer took her and the doll is his calling card.
3. The doll is a message from an enemy of the husband,
4. The wife was leaving him a clue as to where she'd gone.
5. The doll fell out when she was packing.
6. They lost a child and the doll belonged to that child.
7. The wife found out he played with dolls and left him.

And that's only one aspect. You've still got to go into character development.

Did the wife or husband have a past? Was one a foreign national? Is she an Olympic swimmer or a Pre-K teacher? Did he grow up in New York or Montana? Were they part of a cult that they escaped?

There are so many nuances to the crafting of any story - including a screenplay - and they all govern how the story unfolds. No two people are going to see any of those nuances the same way, and if the person doing the dialogue sees the man as a 35-year old survival nut with a fundamentalist background, but the person doing the action has a treatment sketched out about a 50-year old math tutor who was chosen by accident because he shares a name with another man... you've got a problem.

[curious1980]

When I was younger and more stupid (about two years ago) and when I hadn't broken into anything in the industry, I got involved in a collaboration project. It turned out to be me 99.9% of the work and them 0.1% of the work. I'm working on the latest rewrite (stupid me entered into a contract) and will get further feedback. When it's all said and done if it's ever sold I'll get a whopping 35%. Wow, now that was so worth my time and effort...

So far what I have gotten out of it is industry pro notes from readers from two different big studios and a massive learning experience. This did not come at all from the so called "story guy" who has sat on his ass demanding the latest and greatest drafts all the while making rude comments on how long it's taking and why it isn't sold by now.

I would shoot myself before entering into this kind of agreement again.

Even if as you say you bounce ideas back and forth, you're still not even doing 10% of the work and still demanding 50% out of it. A true collaboration is where you get off your ass and write 50% of the story at an equal writing level of that of your partner. Chances of this happening outside of an actual professional relationship set up by producers? Oh about .00001%.

Sorry if I come off irritated, this subject just does that to me.

The only way you could offer 50% is to give your idea and your bounce offs, and then have all the connections needed for an actual sale, or you know, actually pay the writer.

"true collaboration is where you get off your ass and write 50% of the story at an equal writing level of that of your partner." : I'm sorry to hear you're going through that. On the other hand I'm happy to see that someone understands what a collaboration is. What you said is what I wanted to hear. Real life experiences and views of someone going through the negatives is always beneficial.

"The only way you could offer 50% is to give your idea and your bounce offs, and then have all the connections needed for an actual sale, or you know, actually pay the writer.": That's how I seen my collaboration going. Unfortunately, he didn't. I know I wouldn't have let him do all the work because I'm not that type of person. I want to be as much involved in the project as possible. After reading these posts...and your story! It's enough to make the thought of collaborating come to an end.

[curious1980]

"The fact is, there's no real way to collaborate in the way you seem to take the meaning.": I suppose because I feed off of people and like working with people I see collaborating as being fun. When I say fun I mean...happy, enjoyable, feed off of each other's ideas, teamwork type of situation. Obviously, that's not how it's thought of. Instead...most (or at least you all) think of it as "I'm gonna do most the work", "I won't get anything out of it", "it's not worth my time". I wanted to get an insight on why people didn't want to collaborate. You all have definitely given me that.

[curious1980]

Well, you said:



Which sounds awfully like an "I come up with the idea you do the work situation". If you don't have the skills, you aren't a collaborator. You're looking for someone to do the work. What people are trying to tell you in this thread is that brilliant ideas are worth about a dime per thousand. I posted that FAQ as a decent explanation of why established writers don't want to 'collaborate' in this way.

If you mean something different when you say collaborate, why don't you tell us what you mean precisely? :)

"Since he's a screenwriter and I'm not, I thought my story and his skills would make a good combination."

I should have went into more depth. What I should have said is with his screenwriting skills and my writing skills it would make a good combination. I write stage plays...not screenplays. I wouldn't let him do all the writing because it's my project TOO. What's the point of putting my name on something that I haven't contributed to? I'm not like that. Maybe that line is the reason why everyone is speaking of collaboration as, "You do the work I take credit". That's not how I envision collaborating. I see it as being 50/50. Cyla said it best. She basically said there is no real way to collaborate the way I see it happening. I see it as 50/50 and reality states it's not going to run smoothly. There are too many aspects that will create too much conflict.

[killbox]

As you can see- most writers are against collaborations. Ideas are in almost all cases literally worth the piece of paper they are printed on (or soggy cocktail napkin they are penned on). EVERYONE has an idea for a movie, from an 87 years old black and white film lover to a 8 year old kid, they all could probably come up with an idea for a movie if pressed.

Screenwriters usually have books filled with loglines, ideas for their next scripts. I have almost 2 dozen script ideas lined up, its just a matter of finding which one I want to work on next. Which is another reason why most writers won't collaborate, especially if they are doing all the writing. Why split half the profits and do (being generous with the idea people) 3/4ths of the work when we can just do our own work?

On the flip side...

I have collaborated twice before, with the same writer. Notice, he is a writer, not an idea guy. One time based off his concept, once off mine. We connected really well, our writing styles were literally identical and blended incredibly well, we split the work equally and we both had a strong passion for the same genre's and stories.

Having said that, I have never met another writer I could collaborate with out of the hundreds I have talked to.

The odds of finding 2 writers who can really work together and hammer out a project are very slim. In Hollywood seems like the only teams out there are brothers. Unfortunately, none of my brothers wanted to write...

[curious1980]

As you can see- most writers are against collaborations. Ideas are in almost all cases literally worth the piece of paper they are printed on (or soggy cocktail napkin they are penned on). EVERYONE has an idea for a movie, from an 87 years old black and white film lover to a 8 year old kid, they all could probably come up with an idea for a movie if pressed.

Screenwriters usually have books filled with loglines, ideas for their next scripts. I have almost 2 dozen script ideas lined up, its just a matter of finding which one I want to work on next. Which is another reason why most writers won't collaborate, especially if they are doing all the writing. Why split half the profits and do (being generous with the idea people) 3/4ths of the work when we can just do our own work?

On the flip side...

I have collaborated twice before, with the same writer. Notice, he is a writer, not an idea guy. One time based off his concept, once off mine. We connected really well, our writing styles were literally identical and blended incredibly well, we split the work equally and we both had a strong passion for the same genre's and stories.

Having said that, I have never met another writer I could collaborate with out of the hundreds I have talked to.

The odds of finding 2 writers who can really work together and hammer out a project are very slim. In Hollywood seems like the only teams out there are brothers. Unfortunately, none of my brothers wanted to write...


Thanks for sharing...and yes...I do see most writers are HIGHLY against collaborating. I think it could work if you have the right person to collaborate with. Since you're hit with so many negatives and horror stories, you grow pessimistic before finding a good match.

[dpaterso]

From experience, I put in a lot of work on several scripts which had to be abandoned when the collaboration fell apart because of the other guy's sudden and extreme mental ward behavior.

Big deal, tough luck for me. Amazingly it hasn't put me off the idea of collaborating with another writer, though I'd have to see samples of their work and get to know them pretty well, probably through critique swaps and forum conversations, before I typed a word that became our joint property.

-Derek

[killbox]

Yeah don't get me wrong, it can work. I'm not against it. It's just hard to find someone you don't know personally. And even if you find someone willing, doesn't mean you will be able to work together.

I'm not opposed to it, but outside of working with the gentleman I previously mentioned (who I should point out I have known for over a dozen years), I just don't see myself connecting with another writer like that. It could happen, but the odds are against it.

[Stijn Hommes]

I've collaborated on some writing in the past, but I found it's simply not as much fun as the solo-way of writing. I think many writers have a streak of control-freak in them. I know I do. Your friend probably didn't want disagreements about writing to influence your personal life.

[nmstevens]

Ideas are worthless. Plenty of people approach writers with that same. "I have an idea! I'll tell you and you write it!" enthusiasm, but it's not the way it works.

And the idea that someone refuses to "collaborate" because they're "greedy and don't want to share the credit" is not only insulting, but immature and amateur on your part. If you want to take a shot at screenwriting, learn the craft and do it, don't seek out someone to do the work for you and call it "collaboration". It's difficult enough to get something sold to a prod. co. on your own, add another writer to the mix and you've just given a prospective buyer an extra headache it's not worth it for them to take on. They want to deal with one person, not a group.

When you put a name on a screenplay, that doesn't necessarily mean that's how the "written by" is going to look on the final movie. The writer's guild determines that and the more names they have to weigh, the more difficult the process is. Each person who works on the screenplay (because even if you sell it, others are going to rewrite it) has to be weighed for their contribution.

That's why you get things like:

Written by:
Bob & Dave (both Bob and Dave worked as a tem)

and

Written by:
Bob and Dave (the arbitration committee determined that they contributed equally, and independently to the shooting draft.)

if it's changed a whole lot, you might even be reduced to:

Story by:
Bob

This is one major reason it's not profitable to "collaborate" with other unknown writers.


Okay, just to make this point clearly, because there may be some potential for misunderstanding in what you wrote above:

When professionals write as a writing team, they are considered, for the purposes of the project for which they are hired, or for a spec script that they sell -- an indivisable unit, both by the producers who hire them or buy the script and by the guild for purposes of arbitration.

That is, the "John Smith & Tony Jones" credit (with the ampersand) will always read exactly that way. It's a writing team and is considered a single credit.

If credit isn't awarded, neither will get credit. If additional credit is given, it will read, Screenplay by "John Smith & Tony Jones and Barry Bottom."

Guild rules limit credit to three writers, but again, the writers in a writing team are considered to be a single writer, so you could have a credit reading, "Screenplay by John Smith & Tony Jones and Janet Bean & Leslie Hithere and Beyonce Toodles & Mark Itabsent."

That is, three separate writing teams.

And regarding not knowing how to collaborate -- there are lots of people who write in a collaborative setting. Most TV is written around writer's tables. It's quite collaborative.

And inevitably, you have to collaborate in features because you always get notes and have to take meetings and have all sorts of people tell you how they want to change your script around.

But when it comes to the actual writing, I can't imagine doing it any other way than simply being alone in my office, by myself, doing the writing.

I know that there are people who do this, somehow or other, with two people in the room. But how they go about doing it, I haven't a clue.

And I don't particularly want to find out. I've been writing the way I write -- on my own -- since I was around ten. I'm fifty-three now.

I haven't needed anybody else in the room so far to enrich my writing experience and I've been making a decent living at it for around twenty years now.

I suppose if [Name redacted--JDM] called and asked to collaborate on something, I might consider it, but you see, there's a big difference between collaborating *up* and collaborating *down.*

This very much falls into the same area of advice that I give about "attachments" to projects. Collaborators are sort of the same.

They come in to kinds. Balloons and ballast. Balloons lift a project up toward being sold or produced. Those are the kind you want. Ballast weighs a project down. You have to drag ballast around with you. It holds your project down. Ballast, at best, goes along for the ride and gets carried along when (or if) your project gets sold or produced.

We all love those balloons.

Nobody loves that ballast.

As with attachments, so with collaborators.

We'd love to collaborate with somebody more experienced and more successful who'll carry us upward.

Nobody particularly wants to collaborate with somebody less experienced and less successful that *we're* going have to carry.

And as far as ideas -- shocking though it may seem, professional writers already have many more ideas of our own than we'll ever have a chance to write.

I'm afraid it's yet another dose of harsh reality.

NMS

[wordmonkey]

I think we are talking, somewhat, at cross-purposes here.

In the writers' room of a TV show, this creative idea bouncing DOES happen.

However, once that idea bouncing is done, a writer will go off and write a script. That will come back to the writers' room and it might get rewritten or tweaked by other members of the team, but the fact remains, each member of the writing team can do the job on their own.

(Off at an angle, when I work on a comic project, I will do the idea bouncing with an artist. But there, I do my part and the artist brings something that I can't to the table.)

Ultimately, any way you slice it, the scenario described in the OP boils down to an imbalance. And while it might not have been intended as a "write my idea" situation, that imbalance makes it that.

If you want to bounce ideas, try the sandbox (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180).

[wordmonkey]

You could also look for a mentor (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30)... but again, the work will be down to you.

[padnar]

I am very happy I got a kind and helpful person to
collobrate with me. Without his help I will be nothing .
He acts as my mentor in a strict sense. I am really grateful
for his help.
Padma

[Hillgate]

I worked with someone who wrote the first draft of a script that had potential but that needed a lot of work. They were convinced it just needed tweaking and polishing but they failed to appreciate the glaring plot-holes, poor pacing and boredom factor.

I rewrote the script (probably 40% new, another 25% re-written) gave it a new ending, etc etc.

I got us a director.

Original writer fell out with me and the director.

I now hear the script is under option to a producer. So where's my f***ing credit? And money?

You know what? I'll wait until this baby's in preproduction, if it ever gets there. It will be SO much fun wreaking havoc on them via my wonderful Rottweiler lawyers 72 hours before they go into principal. :Soapbox:

[ATP]

There have been some good points made, most certainly about how to set the 'team' up ("pre-nup") - operationally, legally. The point that a 'collaboration' be considered in the same vein as how you would go about (ought to go about?) choosing a marriage partner--considerable time spent getting to know the person before agreeing to commit & then indulging in...er, "creative intercourse", or "creative congress"--can't be underestimated.

[Ucla_sb]

Hmm.. all good notes on the bad points of writing with a partner. I do write with a partner more often than not. We are highly similar in style and thought process, i bring thing to the table that he may not be as good at and he brings things to the table im not as good at. The way it boils down is im the visionary and hes the strategist (lol) For example for our last script i wrote approximately 67 pages and sent it to him where he fleshed it up to 100 through rewriting my stuff and expanding on or adding other scenes. Sorry im rambling, the point is that ive known the cat since we were both cub scouts where we were making up ghost stories while touring the USS Alabama in the middle of the night. So the idea of it being almost a marriage is spot on. The only time we get into true who did what arguments is when hes trying to impress a girl when she asks how writing as a team works (if he can get that far) and its not a real argument its more busting his chops. The point is once we decided to embark on writing together we both knew each other weaknesses and strengths. So no matter that i wrote 67 pages and he wrote 40, because from the get go we agreed for it to be a 50/50 split between two people, meaning if not for me he wouldnt have the completed script in his hand and if not for him nor would I. I was lucky in that i found a writer who likes to write just like me and who thinks like me as a filmmaker. (which is why hes the AD to my Director) When we are collaborating we are operating on two different sides of the world through one brain. 9 times out of 10 if someone throws out a few words and tells us to come up with a story for it, its the same story. We differ very little but when we do its the story that wins not one of us. So i guess if you dont have some one like that in your life already (you may, i didn't know mine had an interest in writing until i asked him his opinion on something i wrote) take the time to get to know someone before thinking of a collaboration, or hell, collaborate on some shorts, if youve got a good feature idea im sure there are a few un-developed half ideas you could play with and not be afraid of losing.

[ComicBent]

Some people collaborate very successfully.

I can envision situations in which it would be a wise course to take.

I know a very prolific writer on Zoetrope. She has written a lot of scripts, and through the years she has improved a lot. She has a lot of good ideas, and her characters come alive. The main problem: just not enough complexity in the plots, not enough twists and turns, not enough vision for how to make the work a salable product. I have thought about offering to collaborate, but have not done so.

Any time you think about collaborating, you have to take into consideration a lot of things, some of them already mentioned.

Just throwing out some things to consider, off the top of my head:

Am I willing to give up some ego investment?

Do I really have something to offer, or am I just horning in on someone else's work?

Am I wasting my time? Will I get the burden of really doing the writing?

Can my partner help by coming up with some good ideas? Can my partner help by seeing possibilities that I did not?

Can we work out a satisfactory relationship for how to proceed with the writing? A lot of things have to be considered: Will we rewrite and pass the work back and forth? How much intercommunication will we need to do during the writing? Sometimes it is better to show the result than to tell the partner what you are going to do.

Can you get along with this person? Can you talk honestly and freely? Will that person listen?

* * *

Anyway, collaboration can be beneficial. It just is not for everyone.

[icerose]

I did want to add in that most of my professional work has been collaboration. I would be presented with a script and it was my job to rewrite it and polish it up. They got their credit and payment, I got mine, often it would get kicked back to me and they would say "We need this and this changed." Or they would just change what I wrote to suit their needs. I have no problem with this sort of a collaboration. It's the here's my idea, you do all the work, get it done quickly, and I'm getting 50% of the money and credit while I'm only supplying the idea and you're doing everything else. Sounds good right? Yeah for the other person.

[curious1980]

Hmm.. all good notes on the bad points of writing with a partner. I do write with a partner more often than not. We are highly similar in style and thought process, i bring thing to the table that he may not be as good at and he brings things to the table im not as good at. The way it boils down is im the visionary and hes the strategist (lol) For example for our last script i wrote approximately 67 pages and sent it to him where he fleshed it up to 100 through rewriting my stuff and expanding on or adding other scenes. Sorry im rambling, the point is that ive known the cat since we were both cub scouts where we were making up ghost stories while touring the USS Alabama in the middle of the night. So the idea of it being almost a marriage is spot on. The only time we get into true who did what arguments is when hes trying to impress a girl when she asks how writing as a team works (if he can get that far) and its not a real argument its more busting his chops. The point is once we decided to embark on writing together we both knew each other weaknesses and strengths. So no matter that i wrote 67 pages and he wrote 40, because from the get go we agreed for it to be a 50/50 split between two people, meaning if not for me he wouldnt have the completed script in his hand and if not for him nor would I. I was lucky in that i found a writer who likes to write just like me and who thinks like me as a filmmaker. (which is why hes the AD to my Director) When we are collaborating we are operating on two different sides of the world through one brain. 9 times out of 10 if someone throws out a few words and tells us to come up with a story for it, its the same story. We differ very little but when we do its the story that wins not one of us. So i guess if you dont have some one like that in your life already (you may, i didn't know mine had an interest in writing until i asked him his opinion on something i wrote) take the time to get to know someone before thinking of a collaboration, or hell, collaborate on some shorts, if youve got a good feature idea im sure there are a few un-developed half ideas you could play with and not be afraid of losing.

That's exactly what I imagined when I thought of collaborating to someone. It thought it would be beneficial because where someone lacks strength the other can give. I'm glad you shared your story. Thanks to you and all others who showed a more positive side of collaborating. :)

[curious1980]

Some people collaborate very successfully.

I can envision situations in which it would be a wise course to take.

I know a very prolific writer on Zoetrope. She has written a lot of scripts, and through the years she has improved a lot. She has a lot of good ideas, and her characters come alive. The main problem: just not enough complexity in the plots, not enough twists and turns, not enough vision for how to make the work a salable product. I have thought about offering to collaborate, but have not done so.

Any time you think about collaborating, you have to take into consideration a lot of things, some of them already mentioned.

Just throwing out some things to consider, off the top of my head:

Am I willing to give up some ego investment?

Do I really have something to offer, or am I just horning in on someone else's work?

Am I wasting my time? Will I get the burden of really doing the writing?

Can my partner help by coming up with some good ideas? Can my partner help by seeing possibilities that I did not?

Can we work out a satisfactory relationship for how to proceed with the writing? A lot of things have to be considered: Will we rewrite and pass the work back and forth? How much intercommunication will we need to do during the writing? Sometimes it is better to show the result than to tell the partner what you are going to do.

Can you get along with this person? Can you talk honestly and freely? Will that person listen?

* * *

Anyway, collaboration can be beneficial. It just is not for everyone.

Thanks for sharing things to consider. Not only did it help me but I'm sure it'll help anyone else who reads this and is thinking about collaborating.

[Kosh]

You know that game you'd play in school where you'd add a bit to the story, and then the person next to you added another bit, and so on? Well I hated when the game would go to the next person.

[Pilote]

I just finished reading a biography of Roman Polanski and he was a great collaborator particularly when it came time to writing and revising scripts. For instance I had always assumed that Robert Towne deserved full credit for it but Polanski had a big hand in shaping it to what we got to see on the screen. He also wrote a lot of his scripts with his longtime collaborator Gerard Brach.

[ATP]

I did want to add in that most of my professional work has been collaboration. I would be presented with a script and it was my job to rewrite it and polish it up. They got their credit and payment, I got mine, often it would get kicked back to me and they would say "We need this and this changed." Or they would just change what I wrote to suit their needs. I have no problem with this sort of a collaboration. It's the here's my idea, you do all the work, get it done quickly, and I'm getting 50% of the money and credit while I'm only supplying the idea and you're doing everything else. Sounds good right? Yeah for the other person.

Collaboration as it is strictly defined? Or co-operation? Or work-for-hire?

[iforgot120]

I'm collaborating with a friend to write the script I'm working on now. I came up with the general premises and expect to do most of the writing because it's more my thing, but having someone whose train of thought is similar to yours is useful when you choke.

On the other hand, we're comedy writers so we basically need a steady flow of jokes coming in; your case could be different.

If you can live with sharing the fame, can cooperate with the person you're working with, and above all think a collaboration will benefit the piece then I'd go ahead and work together.

[Steve Rotramel]

I would love to collaborate on my current project with a conservative family oriented female who could bring some of that sensitivity and sensibility to the work.

My protag is necessarily a young female, and I want to get someone who has lived it to help with the relationships and dialog.

I just can't bring myself to risk it.

I don't want someone who wants to "work it". I had that with a previous collaboration - the problem was we each wanted to do all the work and use the other just for ideas.

That's because we were both control freaks and had a lot of great ideas we wanted in the script.

Didn't work out well at all.

So, I would love to collaborate, except that I know in my mind that I already have enough "friends" who think I'm a jerk!