Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

[Chris Grey]

There's no correlation between quality of description and amount of ink spent. Look to Raymond Chandler for guidance. You only need to give minor characters as much ink as they need to fit in your story-- they all have their own stories, to be sure, you can gush more about them there, but in this story a simple "not more than six feet five inches tall and not wider than a beer truck" will do.

[RHQ]

My stories tend to be like ant hills, overflowing with minor characters. My current WIP has 27 characters already and I'm only up to chapter 10. This is a big worry, but it seems unavoidable. I've thought about it and I think I could eliminate one minor character. I reckon there are only about 8 more characters to come. That's a total of 34.

Wow. I've just outlined my new novel (which I plan to draft during NaNoWriMo.) So far there are three characters with plans to bring in possibly five or six more later in the story.

In my current WIP there are plans for 12 characters total and all but two are essential to the plot. (The two are household servants who serve a function, but could be deleted if they really had to be.)

I'm curious Euclid, are all of these characters actual participants in your plot or are they people like, "shop clerk", "waitress" and other incidental people your main characters meet along the way? For me personally, I don't really count those kinds of characters (thus the two servants who I could delete).

Kelly

[James D. Macdonald]

How about this, Euclid:

Take a favorite book by an author you'd like to be. Re-read it. Write down all the characters, and their functions in the story.

[Ken Schneider]

You can have as many characters as you want. As long as they are not, as UJ would say, 'wack-a-mole characters.'

You don't want characters who your reader meets, and never hears from again. Unless, that character has something very important to tell your MC, just before H/S dies, or is a ghostly messenger, or someone your MC tracked down to find an answer to some pressing question.

If not, you don't need that character. IMO.

I don't, as a reader, need to know Joe the hardware clerk just because the MC buys a shovel.

As we already know, our characters should connect with the reader.

And, whack-a-mole characters don't fullfil that bill.

[Cuppa]

Another question from me.

Dialogue! I have a fear that my characters are all speaking in the same informal style of dialogue, and that I rely on 'beats' and circumstances (age, position) to separate them.

Quick example of my 4 oft used styles-

"Yeah," Jake said. "I'll go, but don't think I'm going to stay for long."

"Yes," Mark said. "I will go, but I will not stay for long."

"Go!" Sean threw up his hands. "Sure, I'll go. Won't stay for long though."

"Really don't want to," James said, looking at his shoes. "But I guess I will. If I have to."

Are the four examples different enough? The last two sentences have the most character imo since they have 'beats' (official term?) between the dialogue. The last is best, since the sentence has a bit of flavor starting with his true feelings.

Right now I am using the last two sentences with beats and informal speech for my main characters, more formal speech like the first two for the characters you would expect that from.

Is it okay to rely on beats and circumstance to create character? Am I worrying about nothing?

Edit: What RJK said brought something to my attention. Should I simply make the character conflict better?

Thanks for any help!

[RJK]

In my current WIP, the MC works in a convenience store. I'll be describing a lot of her life through interactions with her customers and internal dialog. I'll probably have dozens of these one liner characters. We'll see them once, possibly twice, then never again. Obviously, I won't be using up any ink on developing them.

[OddButInteresting]

Providing you remain focused on the central narrative, minor characters can either be used to contribute to the generation of context (it is unlikely that a character would find his/herself walking the streets completely alone in one of the world's biggest cities), or to be compared and contrasted with the protagonist, as Greg said before.

Now that I've addressed the current topic, I should like to ask a question of my own if Jim (or indeed anyone) would be so kind as to provide me with an answer.

Hyphens

Would you say that the utilisation of hyphenation is gramatically-correct in the following sentences?

"How did I end-up here?"

"He got-off of the bus."

"And all of a sudden she just bursted-in!"

Terrible lines, I know. They're just examples.

I've recently come to notice that no-one else seems to hyphenate words in the same fashion that I have done above, and it's caused me to question whether or not I should get to work on clearing-up my grammar.

[James D. Macdonald]

Would you say that the utilisation of hyphenation is gramatically-correct in the following sentences?

I'd think it was incorrect in all of them.

[James D. Macdonald]

Are the four examples different enough?

I would think that a full chapter including dialog in Share Your Work would be more helpful.

[OddButInteresting]

I'd think it was incorrect in all of them.

EDIT: After having done a little research into hyphen usage, I would say that you're right. It always sounded right to me, but as I said my belief in its correctness had been shaken as of late.

Thanks for your (surprisingly swift) reply!

[David Wisehart]

Uncle Jim, I'm a master chess player. I studied it as a child with my uncle who was great. I followed Spaski Fisher like it was the Superbowl. I love playing. So I'm going at a good pace through Logical Chess. I can say that I see this. A good story is all strategy.

I've been thinking recently about successful authors who were also strong chess players, and how their chess playing may have influenced their writing.

George R.R. Martin was a strong tournament chess player in the 1980s, and was for a time a chess tournament director. His current fantasy series has a lot of strategy in it. He pushes his characters around like pawns and isn't afraid to sacrifice his pieces.

Vladimir Nabokov composed chess problems, and wrote a novel about a chess grandmaster (The Defense).

Any other author / chess players? There must be dozens of examples.

[Linda Adams]

In my current WIP there are plans for 12 characters total and all but two are essential to the plot. (The two are household servants who serve a function, but could be deleted if they really had to be.)



In mine, I have 25 essential characters. There's probably about three additional characters who aren't named and turn up for one scene and disappear--but are essential in the context of those scenes (i.e., a waitress in a restaurant).

[Linda Adams]

I've always had a terrible time incorporating subplots into my novel--where other people have to weed out scads of them, if I try to incorporate them in, I'll get stuck for months on the subplot and then have to take it out so I can move on. I've finally managed to incorporate some into the story, but I had to wait until it was near the final draft. But one of the subplots made me wonder if my definition is one of the problems.

How do you define subplots? The one that made me think about the definitions was one I hadn't identified as a subplot. It's something that is essential to the main story but does have its own resolution. Most of my associations with subplots is that they're character-oriented things like romances, family problems, marital problems, character overcoming something, etc.--ones I've seen in mystery novels and that I don't find very interesting to read. My hidden subplot was plot-oriented rather than character-oriented.

[Chris Grey]

I've been thinking recently about successful authors who were also strong chess players, and how their chess playing may have influenced their writing.

George R.R. Martin was a strong tournament chess player in the 1980s, and was for a time a chess tournament director. His current fantasy series has a lot of strategy in it. He pushes his characters around like pawns and isn't afraid to sacrifice his pieces.

Vladimir Nabokov composed chess problems, and wrote a novel about a chess grandmaster (The Defense).

Any other author / chess players? There must be dozens of examples.

I think George R.R. Martin's current series is more like shogi than chess. No less than four viewpoint characters at any given time, and at least twice that many non-viewpoint characters who are very significant to the story.
Has anyone else seen Zombieland? There's a small cast of main characters, yet several asides and flashbacks to other characters who pretty much fit the "whack-a-mole" description. They're there, they're realistically fleshed out, yet they're only around for one scene and fit a definite function (generally illustrating one of the narrator's points).

[FOTSGreg]

Linda Adams wrote, I have 25 essential characters.

Others have written about the dozen or more characters they have in their work.

I'm not criticizing except to say that in my current work I have something like a grand total of 4 essential characters - 2 of them protagonists, 1 of them a Deputy Sheriff, and 1 a terrorist.

Everyone else is a "bit" player, useful in moving the story forward and serving as "foils", in some cases, for the main characters, but little else. They come on scene, say a few things, and leave. Then, later on, they come back. They don't get a lot of stage time. Heck, most of them don't even get a description.

And I think 4 is probably at least 1 too many.

My previous book had 3 "essential" characters. Two other (currently shelved) projects have 2 essential characters.

TLotR has about 2 "essential" characters - Frodo and Gollum.

Aliens has 1 essential character - Ripley

Timothy Zahn's The Icarus Hunt has 2 essential characters (the 2 protagonists whose names I can;t remember right now).

The Wizard of Oz has 1 essential character - Dorothy

Resident Evil: Apocalypse has 1 essential character - Alice

Star Wars has 2 essential characters - Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader

etc.

etc.

etc.

See a pattern there anywhere?

Good stories have fewer essential characters. Memorable stories have fewer essential characters.

[Izz]

Linda Adams wrote, I have 25 essential characters.

Others have written about the dozen or more characters they have in their work.

I'm not criticizing except to say that in my current work I have something like a grand total of 4 essential characters - 2 of them protagonists, 1 of them a Deputy Sheriff, and 1 a terrorist.I think it depends on what you mean by essential. If we're talking essential to the plot, then i would differ with you on the examples below as to who is essential.

Take 'The Icarus Hunt' for example:
Timothy Zahn's The Icarus Hunt has 2 essential characters (the 2 protagonists whose names I can;t remember right now).
[SPOILERS FOLLOW. IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE STORY YOU MAY WANT TO AVERT YOUR EYES NOW]

For the plot to work in this story, a lot more characters are needed than the two protagonists (Jordan and Ixil).

Cameron, the archaeologist who made the find and tricked Jordon into captaining the ship, is essential, even though he doesn't make much of an appearance. Without him there is no plot.

The Patth, as a race, are essential, otherwise there'd be no danger.

The other crew members (5 or 6, can't quite remember which) on the ship, in their varying lengths of appearance, are essential, because without them there could be no mystery as to who the mole is. There couldn't even be a mole, which takes out a substantial plot-related subplot.

Brother John/Ryland, the guy who Jordan is apparently working for, could also be termed an essential character, because he provides another subplot, and is essential to the big reveal, as is Antoniewicz, who is alluded to throughout the story, but not actually met until the climax.

And General Graym-Barker, who also isn't revealed until the end, but who Jordan often calls during the story, is essential too. In fact, he almost plays a deus ex machina type roll, which is almost as frustrating for me as Jordan's (the narrator) lack of reliability.

So that would be 12 characters essential to the plot, by my counting, and by my reckoning of essential, which isn't necessarily right :)

[Linda Adams]

TLotR has about 2 "essential" characters - Frodo and Gollum.

Aliens has 1 essential character - Ripley

Timothy Zahn's The Icarus Hunt has 2 essential characters (the 2 protagonists whose names I can;t remember right now).

The Wizard of Oz has 1 essential character - Dorothy

Resident Evil: Apocalypse has 1 essential character - Alice

Star Wars has 2 essential characters - Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader

etc.

etc.

etc.

See a pattern there anywhere?

Good stories have fewer essential characters. Memorable stories have fewer essential characters.

Some of these examples are puzzling. How does Wizard of Oz have only one essential character? Without the Wizard (the title character), there's no story; the same goes for the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, the Lion, and even the evil Witch. Those characters are needed to make the story work.

Likewise, I don't think Star Wars only has two essential characters--Obi Wan is important to the story, as is Leia, Han Solo, and the two robots. There are many elements of the story that would not work if these characters were not essential.

I think it really depends on the type of story and the genre. Some stories only need a few characters to do the job, and others need more. Story to me is what makes the book memorable--not the number of characters. One of my favorite books has four main characters and probably about twenty or so other characters needed for the story. For me, it was a great book because the story was great.

[bettielee]

FOTSGreg, I think your idea of an 'essential character' is very limited. Therefore, I doubt her 25 characters are all as important as Frodo or Sam. That said, it doesn't make Aragorn, Gandalf (!!) and Boromir any less important.

[FOTSGreg]

Linda, You misunderstand the meaning of the word "essential".

What character is it within each and every one of the stories cited is so "eesential" to the story that without that particular and specific character the entire story would collapse?

I stand on my observations...

Your opinion may differ. That's why writing is an "art" not a science.

[FOTSGreg]

bettielee, All of the characters you mention are important, ut they are not all "essential". There is a misunderstanding about about who is essential to the story, who is important to the story, and who is secondary and tertiary to the story.

Your characters are important to you. Period, end of statement. They are not all important to the story nor to the reader. You may love character A or B or X or Z, but they;re not all important or essential. Twenty-six characters DO NOT serve to push the story forward. They don't! They just do not.

They're secondary. They're unimportant. They're largely inconsequential side characters who don't fulfill any meaningful roll.

You love 'em 'cause they're aspects more of you, the writer, than they are of the story.

You, through them, are intruding and imposing your will (and influence) on an otherwise good story.

You disagree? Good. Do what you will. I'm neither your master nor your mentor. My opinions are my opinions only and not backed up by anything AW or any of its Mods say.

You can have 250 "essential" characters if you want. Just don;t expect me to read the book, okay?

[FOTSGreg]

Re: The Icarus Hunt - Without Jordan, the deep-cover agent who is so deep-cover we don;t even realize it until the end there is no plot.

Re: The Wizard of Oz - Without Dorothy there is no plot.

Re: Star Wars - Without Luke Skywalker there is no plot.

I stand on my observations...

[smsarber]

I think we should all breathe. It's a little off topic.
No, it's a good topic. And the kind of thing we need to know and master to write novels.

[ChristineR]

Princess Leia sets the whole Star Wars plot into motion by sending a message to Obi-Wan. Without that, there is no plot. The whole first half of the movie is a reckless attempt to rescue Leia. They wouldn't even be there if it weren't for her.

The droids deliver the message to Obi-Wan, but accidentally let Luke see it. Without that, there is no plot. The droids are also used in many other small ways throughout the story, like turning off the garbage compactor.

Without Obi-Wan, Luke never gets off Tantoonine. Obi-Wan gets them through several close calls with the stormtroopers.

Han Solo is less critical--most of his plot is developed around the fact that he has a spaceship. Some people have argued that the Millennium Falcon is the character, not Han. Anyhow, it would be a very different story with even minor changes to the nature of the spaceship and pilot.

Darth Vader, oddly, I'd say is the least essential main character. Peter Cushing is more important. Darth kills Obi-Wan, who is supposedly not essential anyhow. Other than that, in the first movie, he's mostly just the especially bad bad guy. He could easily be replaced by a bunch more stormtroopers.

I go over this in detail because I want to say that to claim Luke and Darth are the only essential characters in that movie is to claim that most of the plot is non-essential. It's a value judgment, which others may not share. To say that Leia or Obi-Wan are not essential to movie viewers is not correct. They may not be essential to you, but they are unquestionably essential to the movie Lucas actually made, and which became so popular.

[mscelina]

bettielee, All of the characters you mention are important, ut they are not all "essential". There is a misunderstanding about about who is essential to the story, who is important to the story, and who is secondary and tertiary to the story.

Your characters are important to you. Period, end of statement. They are not all important to the story nor to the reader. You may love character A or B or X or Z, but they;re not all important or essential. Twenty-six characters DO NOT serve to push the story forward. They don't! They just do not.

As with everything involved with a craft like writing (and yes, it's a craft, not just an art) is that opinions like this really are subjective. I've edited stories with only one character in them and stories with a cast of thousands. *shrug* The number of characters there are do not impact the effectiveness of the story. It may be that every character plays some part in pushing the plot forward. That's why blanket statements like this are not always helpful. It's different for different writers...and readers. Certainly, in fantasy where readers are accustomed to large casts and intricate plots and subplots, the reader is accustomed to--and in some part expects--a large cast of characters.


They're secondary. They're unimportant. They're largely inconsequential side characters who don't fulfill any meaningful roll.

You love 'em 'cause they're aspects more of you, the writer, than they are of the story.

You, through them, are intruding and imposing your will (and influence) on an otherwise good story.



See above.


You disagree? Good. Do what you will. I'm neither your master nor your mentor. My opinions are my opinions only and not backed up by anything AW or any of its Mods say.

You can have 250 "essential" characters if you want. Just don;t expect me to read the book, okay?

This is largely unnecessary. This thread is for the purpose of learning, not for insulting fellow members. We're all here to learn about our craft. Let's try to remember that, shall we? If you're dead set on this "I'm not your mentor" bit, then perhaps you should confine your comments to a thread that isn't devoted to mentoring, as this one is.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Krintar]

Linda, You misunderstand the meaning of the word "essential".

What character is it within each and every one of the stories cited is so "eesential" to the story that without that particular and specific character the entire story would collapse?

I stand on my observations...

Your opinion may differ. That's why writing is an "art" not a science.
Let's see... LotR without Gandalf in less than 20 words:
Nazgul prance into Hobbiton, stab Frodo and take the ring. Sauron conquers all. The End.
Likewise without Aragorn:
Nazgul prance into Bree, stab Frodo and take the ring. Sauron conquers all. The End.
I would go on, but off the top of my head I can't think of any more examples which involve prancing Nazgul.

Frankly, I'd have to agree that your definition of 'essential' is too narrow. More characters than just the PoV character are essential - to paraphrase Uncle Jim, all your characters should be essential, otherwise why are they there?

[smsarber]

Every character, as well as every sentence should serve the purpose of moving the story forward. Just as you would edit out sentences that don't serve that purpose, you should cut out any characters that don't... or rewrite them to be intregal to forward movement.

[Chris Grey]

I think Greg is both right and wrong. He's right that, say, Star Wars has the essential characters of Luke and Darth Vader, in that the story is essentially theirs, but each character's development is essentially a single thread in a weave. Han Solo and Leia have a story as well, that's two more threads, etc etc. The central essential thread of the story may be Darth Vader, but the weave of many other theads makes the story what it turned out to be.

LotR has the essential story of Frodo and Gollum, but there's still a story of Aragorn, the story of Legolas and Gimli's friendship, the story of Gandalf accepting his destiny, etc. You can argue that the essential story of LotR is the story of Aragorn, for example, and that the Frodo/Gollum conflict merely sets the stage for him to mature from Strider to king.

What's the essential story of Pirates of the Caribbean? Will and Elizabeth? Captain Jack Sparrow and Barbossa? Or could either essence exist without the other?

[euclid]

How about this, Euclid:

Take a favorite book by an author you'd like to be. Re-read it. Write down all the characters, and their functions in the story.

I will try this, but it will need to be an action thriller like mine.


I'm curious Euclid, are all of these characters actual participants in your plot or are they people like, "shop clerk", "waitress" and other incidental people your main characters meet along the way? For me personally, I don't really count those kinds of characters (thus the two servants who I could delete).

Kelly

1. Ben, a detective Inspector (DI)
2. His wife
3. His daughter
4. A crime boss
5. A rival crime boss
6. The building society manager
7. His chief cashier
8. The other cashier (minor)
9. His wife (kidnap victim)
10. His 9-year old daughter (kidnap victim)
11. Ben's boss
12. Ben's colleague (also a DI)
13. A Detective Sergeant who messed up
14. Another DS who was hit over the head
15. A third DS who works with the OCU
16/17. Two detective constables (I need a critical mass of detectives to make the OCU operation credible/possible)
18. A prosecuting counsel (not named)
19. The defence Counsel (minor)
20. The judge (minor)
21. The ballistics expert (minor)
22. A DI from the Drugs Unit
23. Ben's solicitor
24. Ben's daughter's boyfriend
25. Bruce, an immigrant worker (a very important character)
26. Criminal A's sidekick
27. Criminal B's sidekick
28. Another cashier (now removed)

In addition, so far, there are 4 dead people and an assassin on the run.
ETA: I forgot the two kidnappers (only one of them speaks, both are wearing masks)

[euclid]

No, it's a good topic. And the kind of thing we need to know and master to write novels.

Yes, but I think we're arguing about definitions - syntax if you like - when does a character play an essential as opposed to a supporting role.

Greg seems to be getting a little heated. Sounds like he needs one of these:

:Soapbox:

[euclid]

I think, for clarity, I should add that I was talking about the number of named characters who appear and say something. I was not talking about leading characters.

I think the term "essential" is too ambiguous. Every one of my characters is there for a reason arising from the story, and is therefore essential to the story, although they may be minor.

The chief cashier, for example, has a speaking role and a short section where her's is the narrator's POV. She is the one who becomes suspicious (when the manager starts acting weird) and calls the police, causing problems for the manager and his kidnapped family.

[motormind]

I think the term "essential" is too ambiguous. Every one of my characters is there for a reason arising from the story, and is therefore essential to the story, although they may be minor.


Any character you feel like belonging in your story is essential.

[RJK]

Checking Dictionary.com, the first definition for the Adjective Essential is 1. absolutely necessary; indispensable:

The first definition for the Noun Protagonist is 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.

I think if Fots were to replace essential with Protagonist/Antagonist, his arguments would go much further.

[smsarber]

Checking Dictionary.com, the first definition for the Adjective Essential is 1. absolutely necessary; indispensable:

The first definition for the Noun Protagonist is 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.

I think if Fots were to replace essential with Protagonist/Antagonist, his arguments would go much further.
Well said.

[Tejas220033]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I'm interested in writing a novel based in an industry that I know almost nothing about and am wondering how best to proceed. I want the story to be authentic but I also fear I will fall down a rabbit hole of research and let it overtake the story I'm trying to tell. Do you have any advice for someone looking to take on such a task?

[FOTSGreg]

Folks, Sometimes it's good to give an opposing or controversial view because it gets people's blood pumping and gets them thinking and commenting.

I meant no personal insult or offense to anyone. If that was caused, I apologize.

However, look at the discussion it sparked. You're talking about things that are important in writing a novel and you're discussing what is or is not an "essential" character. Some of you define that differently than I do. I think more than a few essential characters is too many. Some of you disagree.

That's okay. That's fine. That's absolutely, perfectly, one hundred and eleventy seven percent all right.

If it gets some of you discussing more in this forum or any other maybe I ought to drop a few more controversial thoughts and comments more often, eh?

See, this thread, as someone up above noted, is Uncle Jim's and is supposed to be about learning how to do this whole thing. If we all agreed on how it was done we'd all know how and Uncle Jim would have a whole lot more time to devote to his real writing.

See, I'm neither right nor wrong. It's simply my opinion. No one has to agree with it or even understand it. No one even has to like it. It's simply an opinion and a comment that was intended to get people thinking, to get them fired up and passionate about what they were thinking and saying, and to get the discussion of what constitutes an essential character rolling along.

I got to a couple of ya', didn't I? I got you thinking. I got you angry. I got you posting and commenting and discussing.

That makes me happy.

:)

[bettielee]

There are nicer ways to inspire discussion.

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I'm interested in writing a novel based in an industry that I know almost nothing about and am wondering how best to proceed. I want the story to be authentic but I also fear I will fall down a rabbit hole of research and let it overtake the story I'm trying to tell. Do you have any advice for someone looking to take on such a task?
Research 'til your mind is numb, then throw it all out the window and write your book:)

[FOTSGreg]

There may be, but it still got you commenting and thinking.

All inspiration is not necessarily "nice". Writing is cold, lonely, merciless business. Editors are going to count your characters. They;re going to suggest you cut some of them. Are you going to tell an editor that you will not do it because that character is absolutely essential to your story? What if the editor tells you it's cut the character or don't publish the book?

What will you do?

As an aside, what constitutes an "essential" character to you? Is it a character who just happens to bring the protagonist a cup of coffee that somehow inspires him or her to leap into action and stop the bad guys? What is it about the character that brings the coffee could it be to possibly inspire such activity in the protagonist?

What makes an essential character - in your mind (or the minds of anyone else)?

This is a challenge. It's not just a challenge to you or anyone else, it's a challenge I believe every writer faces when struggling with characterization and which characters get featured front and center in their work.

And folks, I'm bowing out of this discussion for awhile before Uncle Jim beats me about the head and shoulders for hijacking his thread and before the rest of you get up a mob with torches and pitch forks after me.

My apologies to Uncle Jim, BTW.

[smsarber]

And remember: Opinions are like assholes-- everybody's got one, and they usually ain't pretty.

[Ken Schneider]

There are nicer ways to inspire discussion.


How do you get 5,906 post since April 2009?

Anyway. Everyone has an opinion, and we should respect their opinions. We don't have to agree, nor do we have to criticize.

Jim, how about an exercise to motivate an otherwise procrastinating group more intersted in debate than writing questions?

[hoogly]

I finished writing a 85k word science fantasy (first draft), but now I am overwhelmed by the length of the work, and I don't know how to start revising it.

How do you revise a large work?

[smsarber]

I finished writing a 85k word science fantasy (first draft), but now I am overwhelmed by the length of the work, and I don't know how to start revising it.

How do you revise a large work?
Start at Chapter One:D

Seriously.
Let it sit for a week or two, then when your mind has cleared from it attack it with no mercy. Cut passive voice when needed, fix typos, cut whole sections, add whole sections. Kill off a character-----the ball's in your court, have fun with it.

[Calliopenjo]

I finished writing a 85k word science fantasy (first draft), but now I am overwhelmed by the length of the work, and I don't know how to start revising it.

How do you revise a large work?

Just like Steven suggested. Let the work sit. In the meanwhile, create another story, clean the house, paint the house, read that book you've been dying to read.

I found out through experience, it's best to tackle a WIP with a clear head and with the energy to conquer. I can't speak for everybody else, but with me. . . I ended up with even more to fix when I was tired or I still had that WIP in my head.

Ask for help. Get a group. Find a group. If not online, there are a lot online depending on what you're looking for, then there should be something in your city. PM me if you want to join my online group. It's a good mix of people.

With me, I can't tackle crits coming back to me right away. I have to let them sit. Then I conquer.

That way, no matter if it's 85 words or 850,000 words the task doesn't seem so big.

[blacbird]

My recommendation would be: Tackle the small things first. Go through with a fine comb and revisit every single sentence for grammar, superfluity, physical accuracy, irrelevancy, well-duhness, and similar stuff. I know some people here will disagree, but for me, this approach focuses my mind on getting the crap out, and also reveals larger potential problems (plot holes, structural difficulties, etc.). I think it also allows me to establish the necessary distance to review the bigger stuff.

Then again, nothing I write seems to work, so take this advice as is.

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you have any advice for someone looking to take on such a task?

The first question is: Why?

Assuming you've answered that question with something that satisfies you:

Research the heck out of it. Start in the Children's Room of your local library. When you've become an expert, leave 90% (some say 99%) of your research in your notes, not on the pages of your novel.

[Tejas220033]

The first question is: Why?

Assuming you've answered that question with something that satisfies you:

Research the heck out of it. Start in the Children's Room of your local library. When you've become an expert, leave 90% (some say 99%) of your research in your notes, not on the pages of your novel.

My why is because it is a fascinating topic and I'm curious to understand the behind-the-scenes of how things work. I just didn't know if I should a)research a ton first before beginning my outline and writing or b)write as much as I think I know and then fill in the holes as I go along. Part of me is anxious to hit the ground running but I also know that there are things I need to know before I can write about this with any authority.

Thank you!

[euclid]

Hey, Jim, I stopped writing today and gave the plot a thorough dusting-up. I now have a pretty strong plot (and 17,000 words of text). The story runs for 18 days in 48 chapters and I think it's going to make a fantastic book. Still planning for draft 1 by Christmas.

Thanks for your help and advice.

[The Lonely One]

Hey, Jim, I stopped writing today and gave the plot a thorough dusting-up. I now have a pretty strong plot (and 17,000 words of text). The story runs for 18 days in 48 chapters and I think it's going to make a fantastic book. Still planning for draft 1 by Christmas.

Thanks for your help and advice.

Can I have my copy by New Years? Where should I send my $19.95?

[jinkang]

Hey, Jim, I stopped writing today and gave the plot a thorough dusting-up. I now have a pretty strong plot (and 17,000 words of text). The story runs for 18 days in 48 chapters and I think it's going to make a fantastic book. Still planning for draft 1 by Christmas.

Thanks for your help and advice.

Congrats (BIC and all).

Just curious how it's working out for you to revise your massive WIP3 while 'drafting' WIP4.

[euclid]

WIP3 has been rewritten extensively. I can do no more with it for now, so I've started on WIP4.

[smsarber]

That is a great pearl. I used to try and wrap my head around writing a character who was even just well above average (not necessarily "Greatest") in a believable fashion. I know a good deal about playing guitar; I've played for more than twenty years. I am not the "Greatest" (CLAPTON). I could, however, possibly write a character who was the Greatest Guitarist in The World. I know enough of the terminology to make it convincing. But then, a guitarist doesn't ever have to speak. That's a whole different animal from Uncle Jim's example of the World's Greatest Orator (For some reason, makes me think of Roosevelt).

[Chris Grey]

For some reason, you bring to mind a song called "Tribute":
This is not The Greatest Song in the World
No, this is just a tributeIt's relatively easy to write about music being great, and I suppose it's possible to sing about a song being great, but is it possible to write about The Greatest Writing in the World?

Yes.

"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.

I know, I know, I shoulda put that in Share Your Work.

[smsarber]

Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82421&postcount=134)to the post referred to.

[The Lonely One]

Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82421&postcount=134)to the post referred to.

Maybe I'm daft but idn't dat what he did?

[smsarber]

No. The point of the lesson is that if you are writing for "The Greatest Orator in the World" don't try to write the speeches said orator is pontificating. Now, what Chris seemed to be getting at was that you can write about him: Yes, you can. But not the speeches. And the real lesson, in my opinion, is that you must watch what you claim in your writing. That's why I used guitar playing in my example. I could write about a great guitarist because I know the terminolgy, and can voice the nuances of playing a great solo. But no one can hear my character play the guitar. With a speaker you would be reading the words, so it could be putting your work in a precarious predictament.

But then, what the hell do I know?

[smsarber]

It's like Quentin Terentino said about the Ezekiel passage from "Pulp Fiction." He said rewriting and trying to improve on a Biblical passage is rough work (paraphrasing again--I didn't feel like getting out the dvd and finding that part in the Bonus Features). As a Christian I didn't like the fact that he rewrote something from the Bible, but as a fan of the movie, I liked it. And it will forever be one the most quoted passages of all time. Sometimes, when writing, whether it's screenplay or novel, you will have the opportunity to write something that will truly stand the test of time. So don't cut corners, don't settle... write the hell out of your work, and if you're proud of it, stand on it.

[jinkang]

Perhaps it may not apply, but I was reading "Self editing for fiction writers" yesterday.

There, the authors commented on a sex scene from the Gone With the Wind....where the whole passage leading to a night of hot, steamy sex is described in hot steamy details...but the actual 'deed' was skipped...with the main cast waking up afterwards.

It left everything to the reader's imagination.

Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.

[lucidzfl]

I get the word said being the word said. The one time I deviate is with "replied".

Is that bad?

ETA: I suppose you could make the case that of course its a fucking reply, the reader just read the previous sentence...

I read something interesting that said "he said, she said" only serves the purpose of identifying the speaker in case the dialog doesn't make it obvious.

Is that generally true?

[smsarber]

Perhaps it may not apply, but I was reading "Self editing for fiction writers" yesterday.

There, the authors commented on a sex scene from the Gone With the Wind....where the whole passage leading to a night of hot, steamy sex is described in hot steamy details...but the actual 'deed' was skipped...with the main cast waking up afterwards.

It left everything to the reader's imagination.

Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.

The orator is only an example. If you look at UJ's original post, that is really the point--leave it to the reader's imagination. He says if you write about the world's greatest orator don't try to recreate the orator's speeches unless you really are the world's greatest orator, because you will fall short.

[Chris Grey]

Did you follow the link to Uncle Jim's post, Chris? The point was if you write about (the example was) the greatest orator in the world you don't want to be writing speeches for the character, lest you really irritate some readers who will say, "Well, that's just crap." (My paraphrasing.)

Here's the link (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82421&postcount=134)to the post referred to.

I didn't follow the link. I read it the first time it was posted.

My post might make more sense if you read this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_of_humor).

Thank you for your support.

[Krintar]

Likewise, if you were to write something about this orator, I think you can get away with building up the scenes but show only the reactions of the crowd (or the orator) AFTER s/he has given the speech.

Readers will fill in the blank better than you ever will.
See: Noodle Incident.

[jinkang]

Hi Uncle Jim (and others),

Could you give me few pointers on POV?

In particular, I'm hoping to show the transition of several different scenes where I start off with an omniscient pov...and slowly transition into a third person limited.

For instance, this is how I outlined:

Scene 1 - omniscient pov of main character
Scene 2 - third person pov of a view point character
Scene 3 - omniscient pov (slowly moving into third person pov) of main character
Scene 4 - third person pov of a view point character
...etc
Scene 20 - third person pov of main character

Scenes are short as I'm writing a short story, and I'm using scene breaker (#) to ensure readers are not confused...hopefully. (Of course, I wouldn't be trying this if I weren't writing a short story. I do think short stories are the medium to experiement and learn.)

I think I can manage the beginning and the end, but I'm a little concerned about the middle parts where I should balance the omniscient pov and third person in the same scene.

So far in omniscient pov scenes, I've introduced dialogues and progressively limited the information that the main character would not be aware of.

But at times, I feel omniscient pov and third-person pov are more or less the same...

Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone. :)

[The Lonely One]

The orator is only an example. If you look at UJ's original post, that is really the point--leave it to the reader's imagination. He says if you write about the world's greatest orator don't try to recreate the orator's speeches unless you really are the world's greatest orator, because you will fall short.

But in the user's example, doesn't it just say "the orator said his speech and everyone clapped"? Isn't that not the same as having the orator actually say it? It still leaves that mystery as to what was said. It could still technically be anything, and thus, could be the greatest thing ever.

I guess I'm not getting it. It's not okay to even mention that the orator DOES speak? You're supposed to leave him mute?

[smsarber]

That was what I said--I agreed with that. The point was not to RECREATE the person's speeches.

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim (and others),

Could you give me few pointers on POV?

In particular, I'm hoping to show the transition of several different scenes where I start off with an omniscient pov...and slowly transition into a third person limited.

For instance, this is how I outlined:

Scene 1 - omniscient pov of main character
Scene 2 - third person pov of a view point character
Scene 3 - omniscient pov (slowly moving into third person pov) of main character
Scene 4 - third person pov of a view point character
...etc
Scene 20 - third person pov of main character

Scenes are short as I'm writing a short story, and I'm using scene breaker (#) to ensure readers are not confused...hopefully. (Of course, I wouldn't be trying this if I weren't writing a short story. I do think short stories are the medium to experiement and learn.)

I think I can manage the beginning and the end, but I'm a little concerned about the middle parts where I should balance the omniscient pov and third person in the same scene.

So far in omniscient pov scenes, I've introduced dialogues and progressively limited the information that the main character would not be aware of.

But at times, I feel omniscient pov and third-person pov are more or less the same...

Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone. :)

Why would you even want to try something like that? It seems that even with line breaks it will be confusing. Just my opinion.

[James D. Macdonald]

I get the word said being the word said. The one time I deviate is with "replied".

Is that bad?

No, it isn't bad.

Neither are other "said" words bad, in and of themselves. But they are like spices: Too many will make the dish inedible.



Any guidance would be appreciated, from anyone.

You ask me a question I can't answer. The only way to know is to write the book. If it works, you'll know. Contrariwise if it doesn't work, you'll know.

[The Lonely One]

"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.


I guess I don't see how "said something totally profound" is recreating a speech.

I think you're right, I'm missing something.

Is the point not to have a scene where the orator speaks, even if it's not directly referenced? To me, saying "said something totally profound" is no harder to believe than actually calling the person the "greatest orator in the world." those two seem to be one in the same kind of expectation of the reader.

I don't think I would have trouble believing the greatest orator in the world "said something profound," assuming I already believe the first part.

Now, if Chris had said "The orator said, Yes, I'll have the salmon, but no lemon, so help me" we'd all be like wtf mate I would have had the steak, medium well. What a crappy orator with bad dining choices.

I read the end of Jim's post and still don't get how Chris's post here happens to be "recreating" the oration.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable but I really don't understand.

[smsarber]

Lonely One, it was never said that in Chris's post it was recreating a speech. Please, for the love of God, go back to the link and read Uncle Jim's post again. Maybe that will clear it up for you.

Chris's post was in response to my previous post (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4124192&postcount=326), that could be the missing link. Hope this clears it up.

[The Lonely One]

never mind. I reread your rep point. I get it.

*hugs thread.

[jinkang]

Hope I'm not beating a dead horse. If I'm, I'm blaming my ignorance. And uncle!


"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.
He took one look at her and said something totally profound. Silence fell over the room, to be broken only by a single, persistent clap. The other diners rose in applause.
The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.


I think smsarber already mentioned this but below is more akin to what I was thinking:

---------
"Can I start you off with something to drink?" she asked Demetrious Calhoun, Greatest Orator in the World.

There it was again. He had the same look--call it twirls in his eyes, madness, or whatever--he always had that look when she had visited his speeches.

His mouth opened and words poured out. His voice was clear and eloquent. And the words cascaded with meanings so profound, she froze for a moment.

When he finished, silence fell over the room. A single persistent clap broke that. Then applause followed.

The server clutched her notepad to her breast and wiped a single tear from her cheek.
-------

I'm practicing to put more 'show' then tell. :) Also, trying to drag that part (tension) where he is talking...without creating it word by word...since I'm not good at speeches.

Then again, what do I know? Until my first sale, I'm only an amateur. And even after the sale, I can't guarantee all my words will be words of wisdom.

[jinkang]

You ask me a question I can't answer. The only way to know is to write the book. If it works, you'll know. Contrariwise if it doesn't work, you'll know.

I'm working on it, Uncle Jim. :) I'll find out for myself and hopefully, learn from it.

[update]
Just got my Logical Chess book...but I think I'll need to finish up the Elements of Style first.

Anything I should focus on while reading the Logical Chess, anyone?

[IceCreamEmpress]

Neither are other "said" words bad, in and of themselves.

Except for "ejaculated". Don't use "ejaculated" as a speech tag, because your readers' inner 12-year-olds will never stop giggling.

Also, I hate it when people use verbs that don't actually describe approaches to utterance as speech tags. "'No, thanks,' he disdained."

[The Lonely One]

Except for "ejaculated". Don't use "ejaculated" as a speech tag, because your readers' inner 12-year-olds will never stop giggling.

Unless your character is a talking penis who is explaining the ins and outs of life to a 12-year-old.

No wait. Don't write that book.

[James D. Macdonald]

Anything I should focus on while reading the Logical Chess, anyone?

The concept of positional play, and the concept of understanding the why of doing what you do.

[James D. Macdonald]

Also, I hate it when people use verbs that don't actually describe approaches to utterance as speech tags. "'No, thanks,' he disdained."

"Blue socks don't go with a yellow suit," Fred welded.

[Medievalist]

"Blue socks don't go with a yellow suit," Fred welded.

Ouch ouch ouch

I had no warning you were going to go there . . .

[Ken Schneider]

Fred banged his palm on the horn button. "Get moving you idiot," he tooted.

Stop me someone.

[Izz]

Stop me someone.*beats Ken with the said-stick*

"That should do it," he bruised.

[motormind]

The concept of positional play, and the concept of understanding the why of doing what you do.

I am quite proficient at chess, even though I play by pure intuition. I think it's much more fun that way, even if I lose a game now and then.

[allenparker]

Is there ever a time when head hopping is called for?

I know you can do anything you want so long as you do it good and right, but is there a moment in a story where nothing else will work?

[HConn]

Allen, "head-hopping" works just fine within an omniscient POV. Inda by Sherwood Smith is a good recent example.

In another relatively recent book, The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde the plot (about characters who could enter the world of a book and meet fictional characters) hinged on a very tight POV as the characters mucked about in a classic novel while trying to avoid the POV character's notice--thereby altering the book. Unfortunately, Fforde himself head-hopped several times without warning; was it sloppiness? Literary gamesmanship? I don't know, but it turned me off. Luckily for him, he has thousands of other readers happy to buy his books.

So the answer for me is: you'd have to write the scene to really know, but isolated instances of head-hopping are more jarring than an omniscient POV. For me, at least. Lots of readers don't care.

[Calliopenjo]

“Yes, I know villager.” Belphoebe bowed her head, and as she did so, she mouthed the words: thank you.

How do you punctuate words that someone mouths? Like the sentence above. How is that done?

[The Lonely One]

How do you punctuate words that someone mouths? Like the sentence above. How is that done?


Just to jump in (not that I claim to be any type of expert), the way you've done it seems fine. It's more clear that way than if you were to use quote marks, which may have a reader questioning if the mouthing was audible.

The "t" in thank you might be capitalized though I'm unsure because of the colon--I'll leave that for someone less grammatically challenged :)

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm unsure because of the colon--I'll leave that for someone less grammatically challenged

Personally, I'd capitalized the T. Just be consistent. The copyeditor will come along and change it to house style anyway.

[euclid]

I took yesterday off and read a book: And Another Thing the sixth book in the H2G2 trilogy, written by Eoin Colfer.

Brilliant! Check out my blog.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. :Hug2:

[bearilou]

To launch from allenparker's head-hopping question, I have another. Several anothers. Kind of basic but I think I've confused myself over it now. Maybe I'm just overthinking.

What, exactly, is head-hopping? How does it differ from 3rd Person Omniscient? Is it ok in a 3rd Person PoV, to jump from person to person (each person with their own scene) within a chapter?

I think I'm confusing head-hopping with the scene/PoV changes within a chapter.

[RJK]

Keeping your POV shifts at the scene level at minimum, should be OK. It's when the author has two or three people talking, feeling, and thinking all in the same scene and sometimes in the same paragraph, that confuses readers.
Thou shalt not confuse thy reader.

[HConn]

My take is exactly the opposite of RJK's. If you have an omniscient narrator who lives in all the character's heads in all the scenes, that's less jarring for me than to follow one character exclusively, leaving the other characters' thoughts out of the text, then suddenly switch to them.

But that's readers for you: what one person loves, another hates. The only thing to do is write it and try to judge how well it works.

[jinkang]

I think I'm confusing head-hopping with the scene/PoV changes within a chapter.

I think head-hopping is essentially a badly-done PoV changes within a 'scene.'

I've read one book where the shift happened a sentence after a sentence. Back and forth.

If you are used to it, it's fine, but it made me put the book down.

[Cuppa]

I think head-hopping is essentially a badly-done PoV changes within a 'scene.'

I've read one book where the shift happened a sentence after a sentence. Back and forth.

If you are used to it, it's fine, but it made me put the book down.

One sci-fi I am reading (The Wreck of the River of Stars) does that quite nicely. Takes skill though...

[bizco]

It took upwards of one month, but I finally made it through the inspiring Volume 1.

Gracias, Uncle Jim.

It seems many writers share the BIC philosophy. This is a quote from one of my favorite authors, Michael Chabon.

There have been plenty of self-destructive rebel-angel novelists over the years, but writing is about getting your work done and getting your work done every day. If you want to write novels, they take a long time, and they're big, and they have a lot of words in them...

[Krintar]

I took yesterday off and read a book: And Another Thing the sixth book in the H2G2 trilogy, written by Eoin Colfer.
Something seems wrong about that. I mean, I don't care who it is or how good the book ends up being, hearing about someone writing an installment in a series who isn't the original author always gives me this feeling of the utmost horror. It's like they're defiling sacred ground, in a way.
Even if I did unintentionally leave a series incomplete at the time of my death, I'd hate to think that someone - anyone, no matter how well they'd known me - would decide to up and finish it a few years later.
I can't be the only one who feels that way, but I suspect I'm probably in the minority. Ah well.

[euclid]

I need some advice here.

My main character is called Ben Jordan. In the early chapters, I called him "Jordan" mostly (there are lots of other characters and a few POV switches), but when he was speaking to his wife, I referred to him as "Ben". That felt a bit odd, so I changed that so that he was "Jordan" even when talking to his wife.

Now I've come to the exciting bit. Jordan is in peril and the peril is mounting chapter after chapter (around half-way through) and I've started to refer to him as "He". "He woke in darkness... Every joint in his body was stiff...

It seems to me that by using "He" I have moved closer to the main character in his peril. Is this okay or am I doing something wrong?

[euclid]

Something seems wrong about that. I mean, I don't care who it is or how good the book ends up being, hearing about someone writing an installment in a series who isn't the original author always gives me this feeling of the utmost horror. It's like they're defiling sacred ground, in a way.
Even if I did unintentionally leave a series incomplete at the time of my death, I'd hate to think that someone - anyone, no matter how well they'd known me - would decide to up and finish it a few years later.
I can't be the only one who feels that way, but I suspect I'm probably in the minority. Ah well.

Quite a lot of fans of H2G2 felt like you when it was announced that Douglas Adams's widow had asked Eoin to write the missing volume (Adams always intended to write a sixth). I think many of these naysayers have changed their minds now that the new book has come out. Although I suppose there will always be some who will never be convinced.

My own view is that much of the originality and spark was lost in the later H2G2 books -- perhaps from the third or fourth book onwards. Eoin Colfer has injected a new and welcome vitality into the series.

[bearilou]

Thanks to everyone who tried to tackle the head-hopping question. I'm still not sure what the difference between head-hopping and 3rd omni is but I'm sure that if I see a good 3rd omni the answer will be obvious.

The question was prompted by the last book I read. It wasn't head-hopping in a paragraph but I noticed that as I was reading the POV would slowly shift from the start of one character into another. It would take a paragraph or two and it would be when I was reading the other characters POV I would have to stop and say, "wait...there was no scene break and why am I now in <second character>'s head?" and in scanning back through the paragraphs I could see the subtle shift along.

Kind of pulled me out of the narrative but not horribly so. I finally got used to the author doing it but the question did stick with me. I had heard head-hopping wasn't something you wanted to do within a scene but here was a published author doing so throughout the book (admittedly, it was for a RPG franchise so I'll leave questions as to quality there).

[euclid]

What's "a RPG franchise"?

In my lexicon, RPG stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade.

[K. Taylor]

Role Playing Game.

[The Lonely One]

What's "a RPG franchise"?

In my lexicon, RPG stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade.

Sounds like a fun franchise.

[jinkang]

Sounds like a fun franchise.

It's could be a RPG of RPG! (Role Playing Game with Rocket Propelled Grenade)



Something seems wrong about that. I mean, I don't care who it is or how good the book ends up being, hearing about someone writing an installment in a series who isn't the original author always gives me this feeling of the utmost horror. It's like they're defiling sacred ground, in a way.


I think the Wheel of Time series was like that. When Robert Jordan passed way (RIP), fans cried out. But that was also because the last book was going to THE last book of the series. It had been known for many years too.

I think in this case though, although there are still many naysayers, people wanted that last book. That and the editor--his wife Harriot--is still alive to oversee Sanderson's writing.

[bizco]

I think the Wheel of Time series is like that. When Robert Jordan passed way (RIP) fans cried out. But that was also because the last book was going to THE last book of the series. It had been known for many years.

I think in this case though, although there are still many naysayers, people wanted that last book. That and the editor--his wife Harriot--is still alive to oversee Sanderson's writing.

Yes, the Wheel of Time series is like that.

I think I read somewhere that Robert Jordan (also a military man) had some say in choosing Sanderson. Regardless, he ensured that somebody would write the final volume by sharing his notes with family. Unfortunately, the same can't be said about George RR Martin, who doesn't seem to be the very picture of health. :/

A question for Uncle Jim-
In the 400+ pages of this thread, I didn't see anything about footnotes in a novel. Do any of your novels use footnotes? How would I denote/format them in my manuscript?

Gracias por todos.

[James D. Macdonald]

In the 400+ pages of this thread, I didn't see anything about footnotes in a novel. Do any of your novels use footnotes?

Generally, novels don't use footnotes.

They can be done well (e.g. the Flashman novels by George MacDonald Frasier), or badly (e.g. HMS Ulysses by Aleister MacLean).

Generally speaking, if the footnotes take the reader out of the narrative flow, or if their existence makes it clear that the rest of the text is all-made-up, they are a bad thing.

Doyle used footnotes in her short story, "A Death in the Working." (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/A%20Death%20in%20the%20Working.pdf)

How to format them? However you wish. The publisher will set them according to house style.

[bizco]

Generally, novels don't use footnotes.

They can be done well (e.g. the Flashman novels by George MacDonald Frasier), or badly (e.g. HMS Ulysses by Aleister MacLean).

Generally speaking, if the footnotes take the reader out of the narrative flow, or if their existence makes it clear that the rest of the text is all-made-up, they are a bad thing.

Doyle used footnotes in her short story, "A Death in the Working." (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/A%20Death%20in%20the%20Working.pdf)

How to format them? However you wish. The publisher will set them according to house style.

Thanks. I thought they were used well in Oscar Wao and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

[Krintar]

Terry Pratchett's been footnoting for a long while. I'd imagine if you're writing comedy (and the footnotes are themselves decent jokes) it would be easier to get away with.

[James D. Macdonald]

Comedy is notoriously hard. (Although, strictly speaking, anything with a happy ending is comedy. Thus, Dante's Divine Comedy, so-called because it ends up in paradise.)

Like anything else in this art, they can be done well or done badly. The question you should ask is why am I doing this? What do I gain that I can get in no other way?

[bizco]

Like anything else in this art, they can be done well or done badly. The question you should ask is why am I doing this? What do I gain that I can get in no other way?

Neither Clarke nor Diaz use it for comedic purpose. So, why?

One article said that Clarke had too much material to include in her already monstrous MS, so she did a lot of the world-building in the footnotes. Díaz uses footnotes, for the most part, to explain Dominican culture and history.

But I guess that's more what than why.

[bearilou]

It's could be a RPG of RPG! (Role Playing Game with Rocket Propelled Grenade)

My favorite kind of rpg!

[James D. Macdonald]

You want the next big thing? Here you go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM6uoQAh50)

[The Lonely One]

But that's not all Kraken have to offer.

Actually, no, it is.

LOL.

[bizco]

You want the next big thing? Here you go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM6uoQAh50)

She must've done a lot of triceps training before making that video.

[Calliopenjo]

I like that video. It was cute. You have to admit, it is an original story idea. Think about it, if they can make a movie about Killer Tomatoes, why not giant squid.

[lucidzfl]

Comedy is notoriously hard. (Although, strictly speaking, anything with a happy ending is comedy. Thus, Dante's Divine Comedy, so-called because it ends up in paradise.)

Like anything else in this art, they can be done well or done badly. The question you should ask is why am I doing this? What do I gain that I can get in no other way?

So every single Jean Claude Van Damme movie was a comedy?

Shit that makes so much more sense!

[FOTSGreg]

So every single Jean Claude Van Damme movie was a comedy?

Well, now that you mention it...

<running from room>

[Neversage]

So every single Jean Claude Van Damme movie was a comedy?

Well, now that you mention it...

<running from room>

Every one of his movies I ever saw was a comedy to any serious martial artist. There, I said it.

On a serious note, I find the only way comedy really works for me when I write is to just let it happen. I try to have a few character or two that are just funny people, or would have good senses of humor... (senses of humor?) The comedy comes through them for the most part.

[allenparker]

I like that video. It was cute. You have to admit, it is an original story idea. Think about it, if they can make a movie about Killer Tomatoes, why not giant squid.

I LOVE that movie. The ketchup scene was precious.

[smsarber]

Still working at novel-writing, but I just had a short story accepted in the meantime. First one since '07, so I'm psyched! It helps put the fire back in my belly for the novel(s) .

[Izz]

Still working at novel-writing, but I just had a short story accepted in the meantime. First one since '07, so I'm psyched! It helps put the fire back in my belly for the novel(s) .
Congrats!

[smsarber]

Yeah really, congrats. Did you post it in G&A?
No, actually I hadn't yet. Didn't really think about it, thanks Wayne!

Uncle Jim, a question has occured to me, and it doesn't really have to do with writing novels, but it ties in with the craft, and with persuing this as a career.

You have headed up this thread for many years now, and I don't think I've ever seen you stumped by a question. So, with all the years of novel and story writing under your belt, do you think you've leaned all you can about the craft? Do you ever get bored with it? I can't see it ever getting boring, because you can always have new characters, new scenarios, new fair maidens trapped in high towers-- the world of creative writing is endlessly rebuilding itself. But I've only been doing it for four years.

[James D. Macdonald]

One thing to remember about humor: The characters in the humorous piece don't know that they're in a funny novel. To them it's all real and serious.

[motormind]

One thing to remember about humor: The characters in the humorous piece don't know that they're in a funny novel. To them it's all real and serious.

Although you it's fun to have one or two savvy characters who maybe even try to use it to their advantage.

[smsarber]

I love the way Koonz incorporates humor into thrillers and horror. In "Tick Tock" it's slapstick, and very intentional, and it works. You should all read "Life Expectancy" for a lesson in humor in serious situations.

[James D. Macdonald]

Comedy relief is an important technique. It makes the highs seem higher by making the lows seem lower, through contrast.

Besides, there's nothing like a joke to help your readers like a character.

[FOTSGreg]

Humans deal with stress in a variety of ways, but when they're under extreme duress or strain they often resort to what is called "gallows humor". Soldiers in war, where they are subjected to up-close/personal encounters with the most severe things another human can do to another one use gallows humor to close off portions of their mind to the horrors they are witnessing. It is a natural and very, very human reaction to horror to crack an inappropriate joke at what might seem to be an inappropriate time - but the time is often appropriate for your characters and your readers in your writing.

Done well, as Uncle Jim says, and with just the right timing, it breaks the tension of an intense scene - and makes the character more identifiable and "human" to the reader, but it has to be done with extreme caution and not too often (also as Uncle Jim says).

Done too many times and the work turns into parody and comedy, not suspense, thriller, horror, or whatever genre.

Badly timed, and the work turns into something the reader will throw across the room with great force thinking "WTF".

Just as in comedy delivery, the use of comedic relief must be carefully timed and delivered. You cannot just drop a joke or snide comment in anywhere. It has to make sense in the scene and it has to be at a peak moment in the scene.

Timing, as they say, is everything.

Just my humble opinion.

[James D. Macdonald]

In your novel, those 200-300 pages contain the biggest event in your main character's life.

Remember that and you'll do fine.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

[Rushie]

I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

You mean like how there can be a big chunk of rock and then by cutting out a lot of it and limiting the rock to certain boundaries Michelangelo made David?

[motormind]

I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

Life has its limits too. For one, it tends to end rather abruptly.

[James D. Macdonald]

Life has its limits too. For one, it tends to end rather abruptly.

Sure, it can. For an individual. The universe continues.

[Cranky]

Sure, it can. For an individual. The universe continues.

"Life is a river," she repeated. "Only in the most literal sense are we born on the day we leave our mother's womb. In the larger, truer sense, we are born of the past -- connected to it's fluidity, both genetically and experientially."

Dr. Patel, I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb. pg. 610

That book is smacking me over the head with the force of a ball peen hammer.

[motormind]

Sure, it can. For an individual. The universe continues.

Not forever, though.

[blacbird]

Dr. Patel, I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb. pg. 610

That book is smacking me over the head with the force of a ball peen hammer.

Rock hammer works better. Sharper point. Trust me, I'm a geologist.

caw

[euclid]

What's a ball peen hammer?

Jim, looking forward to your long meaty post about art and its limitations.

[euclid]

"Life is a river," she repeated. "Only in the most literal sense are we born on the day we leave our mother's womb. In the larger, truer sense, we are born of the past -- connected to it's fluidity, both genetically and experientially."


Sounds very much like Richard Dawkins's A River out of Eden

[Cranky]

Ha, yes! My apologies. I'll fix it. :)

On another note, the reason that particular quote came to mind (besides the fact that I just finished reading the novel), is because if the "river" flows from the past and into the present, I don't see why it wouldn't continue on to the future as well. So in that sense, I suppose life is still limited in that regard. You can go upstream, but it's a lot more work than being carried on the current, unless you want to hop out and walk along the shore.

Now that I've completely smashed the heck out of that analogy, I guess it's my way of disagreeing with Uncle Jim, in a sense. Life is linear, generally speaking. In art, you can step outside of that box much more easily.

[DeskBoundTeaDrinker]

I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

I'd enjoy that post and would benefit from re-reading it bi-annually (as would most of us, I suspect). I tend to be too wordy, and find all sorts of things interesting (I'm the person who reads a novel and finds the arcane science or beet canning explanation to be VERY fascinating) but all of that needs to be pared down in my writing or it goes nowhere.

Less IS more, if 'less' means 'ruthlessly honed to a sharp edge.' Thus, also, the secret of poetic form (restrictions force better contents) and the danger of writing fiction without much of a plot (then the river of life becomes the river of Meander).

[lucidzfl]

Comedy relief is an important technique. It makes the highs seem higher by making the lows seem lower, through contrast.

Besides, there's nothing like a joke to help your readers like a character.

Dear James, I have the same problem many people do, although I am aware of it, which makes me quite different from most.

I am a very funny person in conversations and with regards to topical / contextual humor. (IE: I can be funny when talking to someone and about topics we share knowledge)

I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.

Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)

Thank you James.

[veinglory]

My 2c: sad, morose, driven, tortured people tend towards sarcasm, which can be very funny.

[motormind]

I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.


Humor is not necessarily about telling jokes. Let your characters do or say funny stuff without being too blatant about it. The best humor in novels often is rather subtle.


Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)


Irony helps. Cynicism too, but is much harder to handle.

[euclid]

I seem to have a new problem. My latest WIP is now about 38,000 words (see my sig.) I've drafted 32 out of 48 chapters. The problem is ITS NEARLY ALL DIALOGUE. Just about every scene is made up of 80%-90% dialogue.

Having said that, I do have to go back and fill in a lot of MC thoughts etc. Also, I have to flesh out a number of sub-plots, so maybe the final first draft won't be quite so full of dialogue.

Is there a rule-of-thumb about the ideal amount of dialogue?

[motormind]

Is there a rule-of-thumb about the ideal amount of dialogue?

No. But you can be sure you crossed the line when your beta readers complain about characters never shutting up.

[lucidzfl]

Humor is not necessarily about telling jokes. Let your characters do or say funny stuff without being too blatant about it. The best humor in novels often is rather subtle.



Irony helps. Cynicism too, but is much harder to handle.

I'll try to figure it out. I cannot imagine my MC doing anything sarcastic or funny at all. To be honest, as I said, the only humor I've had in the story was in the one brief time in which my MC had some time away from the wars.

He's constantly being put upon, attacked, and seeing people he cares about die, so I don't know how to inject humor. The story is pretty dark.

ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?

[euclid]

Dear James, I have the same problem many people do, although I am aware of it, which makes me quite different from most.

I am a very funny person in conversations and with regards to topical / contextual humor. (IE: I can be funny when talking to someone and about topics we share knowledge)

I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.

Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)

I have this problem. I find when I'm talking the funnies just flow out of me. Things other people say spark ideas, witticisms in me. I can't help it. But put me sitting in front of a computer screen and all that disappears.

I'm not too fond of "jokes" as such in fiction. Amusing, contemporary badinage, repartee is great, but not "jokes". Having said that: In my WIP2 (Historical Fiction) I decided that one of the characters needed to tell a (medieval) joke (at a camp fire). I gritted my teeth and started typing, and out came a medieval joke. I just started with the first thing that came into my head and ... it worked! In fact it worked so well, I wrote two more for two other characters. (I think I edited those out in the final draft).

[R.G. Alexander]

My problem is the complete opposite. When I am face to face I am not witty at all, but when I am sitting infront of a computer screen I am too sarcastic and witty.

[euclid]

I'll try to figure it out. I cannot imagine my MC doing anything sarcastic or funny at all. To be honest, as I said, the only humor I've had in the story was in the one brief time in which my MC had some time away from the wars.

He's constantly being put upon, attacked, and seeing people he cares about die, so I don't know how to inject humor. The story is pretty dark.

ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?

When he overcomes his enemies (which I imagine he must do) he could be cuttingly funny about them. Think of James Bond's throw away remarks about the baddies that he kills. "He just stepped out." etc. What did he say when he bundled that guy out the window with a bomb between his legs?

Whenever a surrounding character says something funny, I try to rewrite so that the MC has the witty line. Sometimes this works.

[motormind]

ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?

No, but perhaps a bit unrelatable. You could make him a "straight man" in a cast full of whack-jobs, but you have to manoeuvre very minutely to make this work. My current WIP's MC tends to be rather serious too, but I simply have a rather important side character spout ironic comments. Most of the other characters are a bit "off" as well, which I also try to milk for humor.

I think the trick is not to overdo it--and when you laugh your butt off about a passage, chances are it really is not that funny.

[lucidzfl]

When he overcomes his enemies (which I imagine he must do) he could be cuttingly funny about them. Think of James Bond's throw away remarks about the baddies that he kills. "He just stepped out." etc. What did he say when he bundled that guy out the window with a bomb between his legs?

That to me seems like it would come across as cheesy oneliners like in old 80's action movies and this is 100% not at all like that.

[euclid]

That to me seems like it would come across as cheesy oneliners like in old 80's action movies and this is 100% not at all like that.

Fair enough. It was just an example. It doesn't have to be cheesy, just a way for your MC to let off steam, to relieve his own tension. Anyway, you know best.

I seem to remember Connery had some lines heavy with humour when playing the MC in "The Name of the Rose". That was a fairly bleak story...

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there advice that I can give someone regarding show vs. tell?

On a side note, in regards to humor in serious situations. . . I refer to MASH. Bombs exploding left and right, roof is near collapse, snipers firing at anything that moves, surgeons breaking out in song, the company clerk wide-eyed with fear peeping out the window on the telephone. . . it's taking those situations and real life examples and making them fit. That's how I think of humor. Sometimes when you force something to work it doesn't.

[lucidzfl]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there advice that I can give someone regarding show vs. tell?

On a side note, in regards to humor in serious situations. . . I refer to MASH. Bombs exploding left and right, roof is near collapse, snipers firing at anything that moves, surgeons breaking out in song, the company clerk wide-eyed with fear peeping out the window on the telephone. . . it's taking those situations and real life examples and making them fit. That's how I think of humor. Sometimes when you force something to work it doesn't.


Well certain of those characters were the comic relief. Some were nothing but, like Klinger, some were a mixture, like Hawkeye.

Some were just deadly serious all the time. Like any of the doctors who shared Hawkeye's tent...

In my case, my MC IS the straight man, so I'm not sure how to give him anything funny to say or do.

[James D. Macdonald]

In my case, my MC IS the straight man, so I'm not sure how to give him anything funny to say or do.

Get ahold of the original British version of The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn has a sense of humor in it.

This was removed for the reprinted American version (long story short: Under the copyright laws of the time, since there hadn't been an American edition of The Lord of the Rings when it first came out, LOTR was in the public domain in the USA. Ace published it, as public domain, with no royalties going to J.R.R. Tolkien. In order to get it back under copyright, a new edition had to be created, and it had to be substantially revised. (You were wondering about the author's statement on the back cover of the Ballantine edition, "Those who approve of courtesy to living authors will purchase this edition and no other"? That's what that was all about.)

What was substantially revised was revising Aragorn's sense of humor right out. Made him more kingly, I suppose.

Example: Aragorn has just looked into the Palantir. Gimli asks, "Did you say aught, to him?"

In the revised edition, Aragorn replies, "Nay, Gimli...."

In the first edition: "What did you fear I should say? That I have a rascal of a rebel dwarf whom I should gladly exchange for a serviceable orc? Nay, Gimli...."

[smsarber]

Some were just deadly serious all the time. Like any of the doctors who shared Hawkeye's tent...


Not ANY of the doctors-- only the ones with the rank of Major. Trapper John and B.J. Honeycut were hilarious.

[lucidzfl]

Not ANY of the doctors-- only the ones with the rank of Major. Trapper John and B.J. Honeycut were hilarious.

Sorry. Yes I should have specified Majors.

But you knew what I meant :D

Obviously trapper and BJ were awesome.

My parents loved MASH so much that when they named me, they chose J as a middle initial just so my initials could be B.J.

Get this, my other initials (with last name) are B.M.

So for gods sakes, my name's initials either indicate fellatio or taking a crap.

[smsarber]

So for gods sakes, my name's initials either indicate fellatio or taking a crap.

Your parents must have quite a sense of humor, and you, by proxy:)

[bearilou]

My problem is the complete opposite. When I am face to face I am not witty at all, but when I am sitting infront of a computer screen I am too sarcastic and witty.

Same here. In real life, I'm as dull as cardboard but on the page I can keep my beta readers rolling.

[Pyrohawk]

I have a question for Uncle Jim. Firstly I might add I just finished reading the entire original post.....wow, thats more of a novel in itself! And so helpful!! Thank you for all the time you put in. Also, I never understood the BIC concept before. I always figured....if you don't have it all worked out to minute details, then why waste time writing garbage? But I now understand the necessity of just getting going and writing it....work out details later or if you're lucky they will work themselves out as you write. Thanks again.

My question....
I get BIC. But how do you get around a lack of focus? Now let me explain. I have no problem focusing on my writing....problem is, I can't focus on one story. While I am writing one story another one is pushing itself in to my mind and distracting me. Soon enough I find myself daydreaming about that story. So I switch to writing it....obviously its the story that "demands" to be told right? No...when I'm writing story 2, story 1 will begin pestering me! So when you have two novel ideas how do you decide on one and more particularly how do you make yourself focus on just it?

Writers often speak of the metaphorical voices in their heads....what do you do when there is to many, and they fight?

[errantruth]

Wow... Suddenly I need to buy me a copy of the first edition, based on just that one quote! That utterly changes Aragorn!! :)

[MumblingSage]

Get ahold of the original British version of The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn has a sense of humor in it.

This was removed for the reprinted American version (long story short: Under the copyright laws of the time, since there hadn't been an American edition of The Lord of the Rings when it first came out, LOTR was in the public domain in the USA. Ace published it, as public domain, with no royalties going to J.R.R. Tolkien. In order to get it back under copyright, a new edition had to be created, and it had to be substantially revised. (You were wondering about the author's statement on the back cover of the Ballantine edition, "Those who approve of courtesy to living authors will purchase this edition and no other"? That's what that was all about.)

What was substantially revised was revising Aragorn's sense of humor right out. Made him more kingly, I suppose.

Example: Aragorn has just looked into the Palantir. Gimli asks, "Did you say aught, to him?"

In the revised edition, Aragorn replies, "Nay, Gimli...."

In the first edition: "What did you fear I should say? That I have a rascal of a rebel dwarf whom I should gladly exchange for a serviceable orc? Nay, Gimli...."

I need to get ahold of that edition. Somehow...

[James D. Macdonald]

I have no problem focusing on my writing....problem is, I can't focus on one story. While I am writing one story another one is pushing itself in to my mind and distracting me. Soon enough I find myself daydreaming about that story. So I switch to writing it....obviously its the story that "demands" to be told right? No...when I'm writing story 2, story 1 will begin pestering me! So when you have two novel ideas how do you decide on one and more particularly how do you make yourself focus on just it?

I frequently work on two projects at once. I write one until I run out of gas, then switch to the second and go 'til I run out of gas, then switch back to the first.

The other thing that may be going on is the Saboteur Self getting in there, trying to keep you from finishing any project. That's where we get folks who have been writing for fifteen years and have thirty half-novels to show for it. The answer there is to just bull through, even though you hate hate hate the current story and know that the next idea is brilliant and demands to be told.

[Krintar]

Firstly I might add I just finished reading the entire original post
I believe you mean the original thread - the original post was this. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82288&postcount=1)

[Blue Sky]

I need to get ahold of that edition. Somehow...

An overview of The LOR correction and revision process:

ttp://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/tale.html (http://www.tolkiensociety.org/tolkien/tale.html)

I plan to read a recent version approved by Tolkien's son, but The Dark Tower has descended upon my life. I'm currently wandering through the middle of book five.

:)

[Pyrohawk]

Yes that is indeed what I meant Krindar.

Thanks Jim. I think it is more likely the Saboteur Self as you mentioned. Nice phrase by the way. Thats what I keep telling myself. I just need to buckle down and force myself to work on my main project, even if the writing feels crappy because I'm being distracted. Eventually I will be able to get used to tuning out the daydreaming or I will get so engrossed in to the story that it is the only one in my mind. In all things in life I always have a harder time starting and getting moving. Once I do I get the momentum to continue.

[Eddyz Aquila]

Uncle Jim,

New guy over here, I was wondering if there is any cure for "overwriting". I seem to overdescribe the setting and the actions, and although it doesn't slow the pace, it gets annoying after 5 or 10 pages.

Any thoughts?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

New guy over here, I was wondering if there is any cure for "overwriting". I seem to overdescribe the setting and the actions, and although it doesn't slow the pace, it gets annoying after 5 or 10 pages.

Any thoughts?

Just write the book. Edit it afterwards.

Things that are annoying can be cut. Things that readers are going to skim can be cut.

[jinkang]

I just finished reading Volume 1...wow. Lots of helpful suggestions, and everyone's input to the thread really made a difference. And once again, thanks Uncle Jim!

I remember your post, Uncle Jim, where you mentioned BIC 2 hours until you finish the book...then you can spend, say, 15 min. writing new stuff and the rest on rewrite/revision/edit. Does that apply to short stories too?

I can't do BIC but I do write every weekdays. And I feel like I'm spending too much time on revisions. For the current WIP, I spent 2 weeks writing the rewrite, then have been on revisions for the past 3 weeks.

Granted, I'm learning the craft and I'm a hack...but I keep reading what pros say: "writing never gets easier." That line always scares the heck out of me.

Anyway, thanks everyone!

[lucidzfl]

Uncle Jim, I'm posting this here (although it is also in the OP)...

I've been re-reading your original LWWUJ post and saw a guy who couldn't believe you wrote as much as you do in 2 hours. He calculated that you wrote around 28 words per minute, and he realized he was doing around 10.

I got to thinking about it and realized I never really figured out how much I wrote. So I started doing experiments and focusing on writing as MUCH as I can as FAST as I can. Is it crap? Who knows. Did I spend 5 minutes trying to figure out the perfect word? No! I was in a race against myself to see how productive I can be.

In the thread in the OP, ScarletPeaches surmised that when you force yourself to flow like that, thats when the real learning and improvement in writing comes. I tend to agree.

I just thought it was interesting. it may not be for everyone, but I've begun tracking my progress and my exact wpm. It forces me to close all the windows on the computer, ignore everything thats going on and just WRITE. Its like a little competition/game I play with myself.

I also am experimenting with what helps more, having an outline or writing off the cuff. Gentle plot preplanning or flying by the seat of my pants. I hope to have some results at some point.

So far, Its been working great for me, maybe it would interest some other people. (FYI, I'm able to do 3,000 words per hour as of now)

[euclid]

lucidzfl: 3,000 words per hour is awesome. I do about 1,300 in an average (4-6 hour) day!

Jim: I took your suggestion somewhere up-thread and counted the number of characters in a published book. Just finished reading "The Turnaround" by George Pelecanos. I counted about 55 characters, maybe 20 of these essential to the plot.

[jinkang]

I also am experimenting with what helps more, having an outline or writing off the cuff. Gentle plot preplanning or flying by the seat of my pants. I hope to have some results at some point.

I, for one, would appreciate your result posted here or elsewhere. :)

Of course, everyone is different but it'd be interesting to know, nonetheless.

[James D. Macdonald]

So I started doing experiments and focusing on writing as MUCH as I can as FAST as I can. Is it crap? Who knows.

No writing is wasted. And if it gives you better story value at the end ... all the better.

[Neversage]

If I find myself stuck, the thing that gets me going again is to just write whatever I feel like writing. It doesn't matter if it relates to my current project, it always lights the spark again, and then I find it much easier to move forward.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I finally got to order "Land of Mist and Snow," can't wait til it gets here!

[bearilou]

I've been told I have permission to write crap. Yay!

Do I have permission to write out of sequence, too? I know what should come next, according to my outline at least, but the scenes strongest in my head are a little further into the book. They are like a thorn in my brain. I can 'envision' them more clearly at this time in the writing.

Is it really acceptable, from a writing standpoint, to skip ahead to those scenes and write them, leaving that middle 'vague' part until another time, with at least a note/placeholder that says 'a miracle occurs' or similar wording for me to go back to it later?

[HConn]

bearilou, I've certainly done it. It means more work at the revision end, but if you're at the point where you know what happens but not exactly how, it can give you time to think about that blank space.

Just make extensive notes to yourself about the scenes you're skipping.

[Etola]

I've been told I have permission to write crap. Yay!

Do I have permission to write out of sequence, too? I know what should come next, according to my outline at least, but the scenes strongest in my head are a little further into the book. They are like a thorn in my brain. I can 'envision' them more clearly at this time in the writing.

Is it really acceptable, from a writing standpoint, to skip ahead to those scenes and write them, leaving that middle 'vague' part until another time, with at least a note/placeholder that says 'a miracle occurs' or similar wording for me to go back to it later?

I do that a lot, and in fact I'm doing it right now for my Nanowrimo. If I'm just pushing forward on word count, I want to strike with the scenes freshest in my mind and blitz through. I've noticed in the past that if I do not do this, the vivid scenes will fade by the time I get to them, if I write only in chronological order. Then they will not feel as good to me.

Of course, it will take a little editing to stitch them back into the chronological story so that the seams don't show, but I think that's worth it :D

[bearilou]

HConn and Etola, thank you so much to responding.

At first I was feeling guilty, as if it were actually some rule that I absolutely had to write in chronological order or I was a bad person. Irrational, I realize, but that was my mindset and it was bottlenecking me.

I was really struggling because if I had stayed trying to push through, I'd still have a mostly blank page of forced-written stuff that was like extracting a wisdom tooth in effort and pain and it was extremely disheartening.

So I did take the chance, made a note about it in all my note-taking places and pushed on. It was needed, I'll have to say, because once I made that choice I was able to really scoot on through with getting writing done. I know that it will take more editing on the back end to puzzle it together but I do love a challenge!

Thanks again.
:hooray:

[James D. Macdonald]

Of course you can write out of order!

Write the part that needs to be written, the part that's strongest in your mind right now. You're sitting in your chair, you're making your fingers move on the keyboard. How can this possibly be wrong?

[blacbird]

You're sitting in your chair, you're making your fingers move on the keyboard. How can this possibly be wrong?

Well, I'm living proof that it can be wrong for all kinds of reasons. But writing "out of order" ain't one of 'em. Think scenes. If you get hung up on one, go write another. That very well may kick you through the hung-upped one. Stitch them together later.

caw

[R.G. Alexander]

^ That.

[jinkang]

Hi everyone and Uncle Jim,

I had two questions but I realize now that one of them belongs in Short Fiction forum.

So, what is a bad writer? I've been reading Stephen King's On Writing, and I came across a passage that reminded me of your post: That you can make a competent writer good, but you can't make a good writer great. But in King's book, he also mentioned you can't make a bad writer competent.

Alas...something died in me when I read that. (Could be the sashimi I ate for lunch, actually)

Well, while I wait for another brutal truth to hit me like a train wreck, I'll go post that other question.

[HConn]

jinkang, a "bad writer" is a writer who does not know how to improve, and quite possibly does not want to know.

[RJK]

Hconn is right. A bad writer doesn't know he's bad, won't listen to those who try to help him improve, and insists he's right and the world is wrong.
You (not Jinkang) may be an unskilled writer, but you have the ability to become a better write.

[jinkang]

That's good to hear, because I know how bad I am...and that the only way left is up.

I'm shamed to admit but I once thought I didn't need rewrites. I think I dreaded looking back at my pieces and had somehow convinced myself that they were gold. Perhaps one word might have been. In that way, I'm grateful for that one rejection: it really kicked the foundation under me.

Now, as much as I dread, I can't wait for rewrites. I just regret that past ten years could have been more productive.

I've been reading that it does take ten years to learn and master new skills. I guess I'm looking at another ten now.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

So, how does one know what they're writing is bad? How to tell a good sentence/paragraph/chapter from bad ones?
I want to be better but don't know where to look, so I'm just writing till I know.

[IceCreamEmpress]

So, how does one know what they're writing is bad? How to tell a good sentence/paragraph/chapter from bad ones?
I want to be better but don't know where to look, so I'm just writing till I know.


"Where to look" is in published books you enjoy reading.

The only way to build a sense of what's good writing (to you) and what's bad writing (to you) is to read a lot.

The other important thing is to master the mechanics of writing: getting all your tenses, grammar, syntax, and vocabulary choices up to professional levels.

And being in a writers' group or critique group, or swapping beta reads with another writer whose work you enjoy, are good ways to hone your skills.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

The other important thing is to master the mechanics of writing: getting all your tenses, grammar, syntax, and vocabulary choices up to professional levels.

And being in a writers' group or critique group, or swapping beta reads with another writer whose work you enjoy, are good ways to hone your skills.
Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature? They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Thanks for your reply, by the way :)

[HConn]

First thing to be aware of is the Dunning-Kruger Effect. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

Next is to measure the responses of people who read your work. If you post a story on your blog and your regular readers, unprompted, post links to it, you're doing well.

There's really no other way I'd measure competence. When you publish a novel, its success will depend on the word of mouth of strangers; if no one seems interested in spreading the word, there's more work to do.

This also does an end run around issues of "good" and "bad" books. While discussions of whether a kind of book is good or not is worthwhile (and fun!) it's actually a millstone around the neck of a writer trying to break in. There will always be people who dislike your books (even mine, if such a thing can be imagined). But are there readers who want to share it?

The struggle to improve your work is another matter. Every writer needs different help, but there are a couple of tricks to try.

First, as Uncle Jim suggests, retype the first chapter of a favorite novel. Especially a novel similar to the one you're writing. It doesn't take very long, but it will help you with sentence structure, voice, and all the good stuff.

Then, hold up the first page of your work and the first of the retyped one. How do they compare? Are they just as interesting? Do things happen in an original way?

Then go through the first three pages of your manuscript. Highlight all the verbs. Are they interesting? If not, don't try to change the words, look at the story you're telling.

Then read a book similar to yours that you'd like to emulate, and outline it. How long until the main conflict is established? How much page-space on exposition? On outright conflict? How many plot twists, and how often do they come?

And so on. Another useful thing is to read others' descriptions of what they like and dislike.

At least, those are the things that helped me. Each writer has different strengths and weaknesses, so each would need different medicine.

Good luck.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Thanks for the reply.

[Calliopenjo]

Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature? They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Thanks for your reply, by the way :)

There are online writer's groups. Google Online Writing Groups and a few should pop up. Be nice and follow the rules. Everything should be fine.

Different groups offer different things. Most offer camaraderie. By reading and critting other stories, you are learning what points might improve your story as well. Often times, we don't see our own mistakes (at least I don't), so another set of eyes will help to pick what parts need improvement. It also helps us to gauge the sort of reaction the story will bring.

As for literary critics, I think it's the same as movie critics. To each their own and everybody has their own opinion. The only thing I can suggest, is go to www.amazon.com and in the SEARCH bar type in the name of the book. If there's a LOOK INSIDE feature, click that and read the first pages and see what you think. Often times, what you'll find is that your opinion is different than somebody else's.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Well, I can already speak English correctly and I tend to be cautious about my grammar and spelling. Does this count?

Yep, that's good.

About the "writers' group," where could I find one? And more importantly, what could they offer to me?

In your local area: check to see if people have put up flyers at the library; check Craigslist and LiveJournal groups for your area, if you have them.

On the Internet: I think some people have organized them here on AW.com.

I have a question that's been bugging me lately. What does it mean when people criticize novels by saying it's not a good work of literature?

I've never heard anyone say that exact thing--could you amplify?

They said that about Dan Brown (the one who got me into writing) and also I think they've said that about Twilight author, Stephenie Meyer. What is that all about?

Well, my own point of view on Brown and Meyer is that both demonstrate sloppy writing (from the level of basic grammar and syntax up to the levels of poor characterization and awkward dialogue) and lazy plotting. But they have the gift of coming up with stories that people really want to read, so kudos to them for that.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Well, my own point of view on Brown and Meyer is that both demonstrate sloppy writing (from the level of basic grammar and syntax up to the levels of poor characterization and awkward dialogue) and lazy plotting. But they have the gift of coming up with stories that people really want to read, so kudos to them for that.

Could you explain it more to me, what you meant by sloppy writing. I mean, I've read almost all of Brown's books (hadn't read his last yet) and I didn't notice any "sloppiness" in regard to what noted. I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

thanks

[BigWords]

I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

His level of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter he chooses is very, very loosely based in reality. It's easier to compare his books to the Indiana Jones films - you know there isn't a network of tunnels under Venice, for logical reasons, but the story insists that they be there for plot... It's hard to find an actual fact that Dan Brown didn't twist around in some way or other.

[James D. Macdonald]

Story, as Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fond of saying, is a force of nature.

How do you know if you're writing well? Your readers will tell you.

Recall that you as the writer are only doing half of the work of creation. Your reader is doing the other half, compiling your words into story.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Twisting facts to create fiction is what fiction is all about, right? Besides Brown's books take place in real life locations, just the plot is fiction I'd say. Some of his facts are misleading and some are even wrong. But still, I wouldn't say his books are "very" loosely based on facts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a debate or something, just trying to better understand your point of view while telling you mine :)

[euclid]

I thought Da Vinci Code was unmitigated Cr*p. But it's nice to know that even stuff this poor can make a best seller / film etc. Gives me hope.

[bearilou]

Could you explain it more to me, what you meant by sloppy writing. I mean, I've read almost all of Brown's books (hadn't read his last yet) and I didn't notice any "sloppiness" in regard to what noted. I really admire the way he tells a story, hooks you and still manages to teach you something or two (general knowledge-wise)

thanks

Re: Sloppiness

Conjuring from memory but I can tell you two things Dan Brown did that contributed towards me putting his book down and never picking up another one. (I'm going from memory since I've long given the book away, so some details are a bit sketchy)

Angels and Demons, when Frank Langely was being given the tour of CERN before he was shown the 'case' he was to help out on. He was with the guy in the wheelchair and they were watching the wind tunnel and the scientist who were 'skydiving'. One particularly heavy woman had a square bit of cloth and when Frank asked why she had one, the man explained something to the effect that even that one bit of cloth could slow her speed while falling and she could survive it.

Now, none of that bugged me. I was actually with him. Until he wrote in the book something to the effect of 'Little did Frank know that in 24 hours that information would save his life.'

Ok. As a reader, Dan Brown just insulted me. I figured that it was important. He was the writer and as such, when a writer writes something like that, as a pretty smart reader...I can figure out it might be something that comes in as important later. I did not need Dan Brown to beat me over the head with that. LOOK HERE! THIS IS IMPORTANT! YOU'LL NEED TO KNOW THIS LATER!

The defining moment of me putting the book down was him taking the oh-so-beautiful-and-sexy-and-smart-and-attracted-to-me-dur-dur-dur female companion with him into the Vatican City. He clearly outlined all the rules of even being able to visit there (women had to cover their legs or something) and Frank bulldozed getting his little tanned-brown bunny into the library without any of the soldiers there getting the woman a pair of pants? It was an affront and an insult to let her in there in shorts and they couldn't get her more appropriate clothing if it was that damned important he take her with him to do research?

And if I recall correctly, she (or they) were handling very fragile manuscripts without gloves?

That was Dan Brown (via Frank Langely) flying in the face of tradition and convention and spitting on it. I disliked him then and there (both hims, writer and protag) and put the book down.

To me, that was sloppy writing. Wave away inconvienent stuff because it might get in the way of his SOOPERSPECHUAL characters being SOOPERSPECUAL.

:D

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel. You and I may have different tastes and even different limits of what we can accept in our diet, but really, look past those short comings and enjoy the book. I know I do it and give the authors a chance since I'm hoping readers will do the same for me when I get finally to releasing my book. Not that I'm saying I'll write cr*p and expect people to read it, just that if some inconsistencies do manage to slip through.

Best regards.

[MumblingSage]

First thing to be aware of is the Dunning-Kruger Effect. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)




If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.

Oh yes, that's what happened to me about three years ago. I'm not sure what hurt more--realizing I was a poor writer, or realizing what a nassisitic idiot I was when I thought I was a good writer. Either way, I probably would have felt a little better had I known about this effect before. Interesting.

Those things you mentioned could bug you and even irritate you, but I don't see that reason enough to not read his novel.
What better reason not to read a novel than because you don't like it? I don't like reading romance in a modern-day setting, but should I read Nora Roberts anyway?

Bearilou gave Dan Brown a chance, and Dan Brown blew it (for her, others might--and do--still enjoy reading him). Nobody can ask much more than that.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.

[bearilou]

Well, I'll stop here. I don't want to endlessly discuss something that doesn't matter anyhow. You like Brown? Good for you, if not, then your choice. That's all.

I think we all want to sell books because they're good. I don't see why people might buy a book if it was bad. But to each their own.


To clarify, I don't think this conversation has gone there yet. I've watched this exact same conversation get ugly is all.

I want to write up not down. I don't want to be as good as Dan Brown, I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald. I want to sell my book because it's good.

Something told me to delete my comment as soon as I hit post. Still I forged ahead.

Ehab Ahmed asked why someone would considered Dan Brown a sloppy writer and I provided specific opinion based on my experience.

Ah well. Live and learn. Should have listened to my intuition.

[smsarber]

I never read Brown because his writing goes against everything I believe as a Christian. That being said, WHO CARES? The guy makes money. Go out and write your own books. Make your own money.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Believe me it gets uncomfortable and serves no purpose. I reserve judgement on writers here for that reason.

Uncle Jim, I went to the library. They had two of your Circle of Magic books. (I have them now) School of wizardry and Secret of the tower. I'm going to read them over the next few weeks.
Let me just pop in here with an observation.

Uncle Jim is currently pursuing legal action against certain parties for publishing, without permission, additional novels in the Circle of Magic series.

The ones authored by Debra Doyle and James D. Macdonald can be found here, at Uncle Jim's Web Site (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/Wiz_ad.htp).

There are others, at least two, which are at the heart of the controversy.

[Ken Schneider]

Story, as Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fond of saying, is a force of nature.

How do you know if you're writing well? Your readers will tell you.

Recall that you as the writer are only doing half of the work of creation. Your reader is doing the other half, compiling your words into story.

True.
The writer doesn't give the reader much credit for having a mind of their own.
Everyone who reads a book by the same writer will see the scenery different, the faces of the characters, and the cars, towns, stores, et al.

To many of us give too much info, forcing a direction on readers that we don't need to.

We are, after all, sending the reader on an adventure with our story, let them take the adventure they best invision.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Something told me to delete my comment as soon as I hit post. Still I forged ahead.

Ehab Ahmed asked why someone would considered Dan Brown a sloppy writer and I provided specific opinion based on my experience.

Ah well. Live and learn. Should have listened to my intuition.

I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable, that's why I stopped my discussion as it no longer served any purpose. I really respect your opinion and your experiences. Thanks for indulging me with your thoughts.

[Krintar]

To many of us give too much info, forcing a direction on readers that we don't need to.
I admit, I try to do that at times.
Perhaps it's a good thing that I'm lazy and forgetful and as such it never lasts more than a page or two before I'm back to my minimalist ways.
I guess I'll find out sooner or later.

[bearilou]

I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable, that's why I stopped my discussion as it no longer served any purpose. I really respect your opinion and your experiences. Thanks for indulging me with your thoughts.

Nono! Totally not a problem but WayneK is older (in terms of time here on the boards) and wiser than I so I bow to his wisdom in this. Tis cool! :)

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Nono! Totally not a problem but WayneK is older (in terms of time here on the boards) and wiser than I so I bow to his wisdom in this. Tis cool! :)

Good! I was starting to get worried that I might have stepped on some toes on my first days. I'm glad you're cool about this because I was hoping to be able to make writing friends from here.

Best regards, Ehab.

[James D. Macdonald]

...I want to be as good as James D. Macdonald.

No, you don't. You want to be better. My publishers already have a guy who's exactly as good as me.

Heck, I spend my days trying to be better than James D. Macdonald. Why not you, too?

[Ken Schneider]

See, even UJ wants to be a better writer.

You guys should be inspired by that statement.

And, you should feel that way, always, about your writing, until, THE END.

[Ehab.Ahmed]

Being a better writer is an ever lasting struggle. Not all endure its test of time.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Am I reading pirated books or something?

They have his name on them.

No, you're fine. Circle of Magic Books 1 - 6 are the original series. The books that are under a legal cloud are numbers 7 and 8.

All of the books have Debra's and Jim's names on them, although having their names on 7 and 8 came as a surprise to them.

[FOTSGreg]

I'm always inspired by Uncle Jim.

I've posted elsewhere in regard to his comment above when somebody started a thread about trying to write like Stephen King. Basically, I told the poster "Why try to write like King? Try to write better than King because there's already somebody writing exactly like King and he's as good as he can be right now and he's trying to write better than he already is."

Publishers are really looking for the next Big Name. Just look at the horde of vampire romance novels that are still coming out. Look at the YA superhero novels that are coming out. Heck, there are still books about zombie horror and survival horror, Warcraft, Star Trek, Star Wars, Halo, and any other genre you can probably name coming out. How many novels about young wizards are there out there right now? How many novels about vampires and vampire hunters? How many novels about young love (or even old love)?

Publishers are constantly on the look for something that is going to sell.

That's their bottom line.

Your bottom line should be writing the best darned story you can so you can get it reviewed and represented by an agent and get it past an editor and onto the sales racks.

Then you should get cracking on your next book and becoming a better writer than you already are, not trying to write like somebody who's already writing as well as they can right now.

Thanks, Uncle Jim, for the daily inspiration you provide to readers and posters here at Absolute Write (and a big thanks also to MacAllister and all the other AW mods for providing AW and moderating this forum for all us wannabe's).

[euclid]

No, you're fine. Circle of Magic Books 1 - 6 are the original series. The books that are under a legal cloud are numbers 7 and 8.

All of the books have Debra's and Jim's names on them, although having their names on 7 and 8 came as a surprise to them.

That's extraordinary! If Jim and Debra are named as the authors, shouldn't they receive all advances and royalties from 7 and 8?

[euclid]

It occurred to me today that I should take a back up copy of my WIP, but I didn't. Now my system has crashed... I think it's just the screen. (Working from my laptop here)

[Duncan J Macdonald]

That's extraordinary! If Jim and Debra are named as the authors, shouldn't they receive all advances and royalties from 7 and 8?
It's a long, sordid, and still unfolding story. And, as is usual in these cases, is unfolding at a rate slightly slower than the heat death of the universe.

[James D. Macdonald]

The new cover for the paperback version of The Apocalypse Door:

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/covers/The_Apocalypse_Door_PB_big.jpg

Release date is 8 December. (Everyone in your whole extended family wants one for Christmas. No, really. They told me in e-mail.)

[Salis]

The new cover for the paperback version of The Apocalypse Door:

http://www.sff.net/people/yog/covers/The_Apocalypse_Door_PB_big.jpg

Release date is 8 December. (Everyone in your whole extended family wants one for Christmas. No, really. They told me in e-mail.)

My family always gets me books I hate. :|

[euclid]

Christmas has been cancelled in our house this year. Why not send out free copies to all your friends in this thread, Jim?

It might work out if enough of them get hooked on your writing style and go out and buy some more!

(PS My screen decided to start working again for no reason this morning.)

[jinkang]

That's extraordinary! If Jim and Debra are named as the authors, shouldn't they receive all advances and royalties from 7 and 8?

I imagine money is not the issue here though. Perhaps integrity and the fact that they neither had any input nor a say in what went on with their beloved characters.

[euclid]

I imagine money is not the issue here though. Perhaps integrity and the fact that they neither had any input nor a say in what went on with their beloved characters.

Absolutely! Money must be only one of several issues. Copyright infringement is a heinous crime (although probably classed as a misdemeanour in most jurisdictions).

The mind boggggles.

[euclid]

Interested in The Circle of Magic, I did some research in my favourite book selling site and found the following, all credited to Debra Doyle (and pretty much all out of stock) (no mention of Jim):

Groogleman
Tournament and Tower
The Prince's Players
Judgment Night
Hunter's Moon
The City by the Sea
The Wizard's Statue
Danger in the Palace
Secret of the Tower
The Prisoner of Bell Castle
The High King's Daughter
The High King's Daughters (?)
School of Wizardry
The Wizard's Castle

Which of these are Circle of Magic books and what order do they come in?

Are these books YA?

[euclid]

Jim,

Is there a comprehensive list anywhere of your (and DD's) books?

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Jim,

Is there a comprehensive list anywhere of your (and DD's) books?
I'm not Jim, nor do I play him on TV, but look at Jim and Debra's Site Madhouse Manor (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/) and the Internet Speculative Fiction Data Base (http://208.100.59.10/cgi-bin/index.cgi).

Debra's Page at the ISFDB (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Debra%20Doyle)

Jim's Page at the ISFDB (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?James%20D.%20Macdonald)

Between the two sites, a comprehensive list can be made. Madhouse Manor, of course, is the definitive one, since it is maintained by the authors themselves and is not at the mercy of well meaning but possibly incorrect outsiders.

[James D. Macdonald]

The ISFDB entries both contain serious errors and omissions.

[IceCreamEmpress]

The ISFDB entries both contain serious errors and omissions.

This is true for many authors, so refer to the author's own website whenever possible.

[euclid]

I visited your web site.

Wow!

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I recieved "Land of Mist and Snow," and have read the first 32 pages (in one sitting, and when you have a six-month-old that can be quite a feat). I'm really enjoying it so far, which I'd expected. I'll let you know when I get finished with it.

[euclid]

I pre-ordered The Apocalypse Door using Amazon.com.

Their new system is very confusing. I wasn't at all sure whether I had placed an order or not, had to go back in and check. Most of the screens have no "sign out" flag. It's quite difficult to get out again. Weird. Nowhere I could see to contact them.

[Pyrohawk]

I actually knew of the Apocalypse Door before I joined this site. I worked at a department store for several years before I came to college and we sold it there, it was on the prestigious "Best Sellers" display at the end of the aisle and I picked it up in there.

When I joined this site and saw this thread a couple weeks ago I thought "who is James Macdonald and what gives him the knowledge to teach writing?". Then I saw his referance to that novel and went "wait a minute...I know that book....he's THAT James Macdonald?!". Hahaha.

You really do us an honor by spending your time on this site helping us all.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

For those of you who have read some of Uncle Jim's books, which one(s) do you most recommend? (feel free to comment as well UJ)

[James D. Macdonald]

I love all my children equally.

Let's not get derailed from talking about writing in general.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to drop by and say I hope you had a safe Veteran's Day.

And in case you're wondering, yes I'm stalling. I'm rewriting my story from omniscient third to a more focused POV. Still third person. It's turning out to be quite a task.

So, now that I've stalled, it's time for me to go back and conquer.

:e2writer:
Rose from the bed. . . No no no.

Stood up from the bed. . . NOT.

Why does he have to have a bed?

[MacAllister]

Just wanted to stop by here and let everyone know we're having a Happy Anniversary party for the Uncle Jim thread. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161998)

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi SoloArtist,

I'm not Uncle Jim, but after completing the best first draft you could muster, submit it to a writing group. They will help you by pointing out what can change and offering their opinion. Check with your university, college, or library and see if there's a writing group. If not, there's always online. Google Free Online Writing Groups, and several should pop up.

My humble opinion.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

Yikes Calli! :)

This one won't be ready for that for at least a little while. I need to figure out a strategy for going forward from here though.

[RJK]

Uncle Jim has told others, put it in a drawer and let it cook for a while. I think he recommends a month or more. Then start your revision with fresh eyes. It definitely pays to give your brain a vacation from it for some period. In the meantime, write something else. It can be another novel, a short story, grocery list, memoirs, anything. Hope this helps.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yep, putting the work in the desk drawer would be the best thing to do. A month or six weeks while you work on something else would be great.

Then rewrite and edit the fudge out of it. Only when you've gone as far as you can go on your own should you take to your beta readers or your workshop.

[Amb the Creative]

My problem with this piece of advice is that I lose my enthusiasm for the work the longer I don't look at it.

Like I understand the need for working on new and different things, but once I put something aside for a long period of time, when I go back to it I forget what it was that I wanted to evoke with the story. I feel disjointed from it and wonder how to get back into it.

[smsarber]

Soloartist, somewhere in the forums is a thread to help you find a beta reader. Some are very willing to read through very rough drafts and offer great insights. I would start there.


Except that I just realized Uncle Jim advised against this in a post I hadn't seen. Oooopsie!

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Izz]

Thanks all. The most common advice from those in the know seems to be putting it aside for a while. If I had just forged ahead on my own, I would've probably gone right back into editing it and made one full edit through the book while it was fairly fresh in my mind (fixing blatant inconsistencies, for example), and then put it aside for a while so that when I came back to it it wouldn't seem quite so bad. What do you think of that Uncle Jim? Do you think can be good as well, or would you advise against it?The problem with that approach is that you're likely to miss those blatant inconsistencies on the first edit because you're so close to the story. Forest for trees sorta thing.

That being said, who knows? Approaching it that way might work for you. But (and i can only speak for myself here) gaining distance and perspective works best for me.

[Calliopenjo]

Okay, to further embarrass myself, I can't see my own mistakes. Four weeks, four months, four years, four centuries. . . Anyway. . . I try to make the best first draft I can before I submit it to my writing group. It's from that point that I can fix my story before I send it to a beta.

So to clarify the comment I made earlier, for those who need that red pencil to point out the mistakes (such as myself), I find submitting the first draft to a writing group helps.

And now, back to my corner.:e2writer:

[euclid]

My problem with this piece of advice is that I lose my enthusiasm for the work the longer I don't look at it.

Like I understand the need for working on new and different things, but once I put something aside for a long period of time, when I go back to it I forget what it was that I wanted to evoke with the story. I feel disjointed from it and wonder how to get back into it.

I have this problem too. I find it's quite easy to lose the finer threads of the plot, even after a short period (like a week or two).

[Izz]

My problem with this piece of advice is that I lose my enthusiasm for the work the longer I don't look at it.

Like I understand the need for working on new and different things, but once I put something aside for a long period of time, when I go back to it I forget what it was that I wanted to evoke with the story. I feel disjointed from it and wonder how to get back into it.

I have this problem too. I find it's quite easy to lose the finer threads of the plot, even after a short period (like a week or two).Have you tried jotting a few notes down as to where you want the plot to go, or what sort of emotions you want to conjure up in the reader's mind?

I'm not saying have a detailed outline, necessarily, but maybe a paragraph or something at the end of what you've written might help you get back in the groove. I do that quite often for anything i haven't outlined (and sometimes even for stuff i have, because the story i want to tell sometimes changes unexpectedly). Something as simple as: Have Joe get wrongly accused of a crime. Build on why and how much he hates being able to fly. Create some sympathy for him. Try to make him cynical rather than completely pathetic. Maybe have him start tracking down whoever it was that committed the crime.

Having a brief summary paragraph of the story and what you're hoping to achieve with it could be very useful if you're coming back to edit a piece as well (plus it'll help with the whole synopsis writing thang).

Disclaimer: This advice is only my opinion and nothing more, and is in no way claiming or purporting to be from Uncle Jim :D

[Krintar]

My problem with this piece of advice is that I lose my enthusiasm for the work the longer I don't look at it.

Like I understand the need for working on new and different things, but once I put something aside for a long period of time, when I go back to it I forget what it was that I wanted to evoke with the story. I feel disjointed from it and wonder how to get back into it.
If you the author can't get into it after a mere few months away, how can you expect readers who know nothing of either you or the story to show interest?

EDIT: To clarify, I don't mean any offense. I just feel that if you can't get into a story YOU'VE WRITTEN by rereading it, then maybe you're not writing the right stories to begin with.

[euclid]

Have you tried jotting a few notes down as to where you want the plot to go, or what sort of emotions you want to conjure up in the reader's mind?



Speaking for myself: Yes, of course, I have keynotes in a spreadsheet for each chapter. The main plot and sub-plot elements are not a problem. It's the finer threads that catch me out. Like when adding something in the middle, remembering what exactly my MCs know at this point in the story. Is this before or after some minor event? That sort of thing. In my current WIP, my MC's car is off the road for a few chapters. Adding stuff in here, I need to be careful not to have him drive anywhere for those chapters. If I come back to it later, I might decide to move some of the action from those chapters and place it earlier of later. Then the question could arise: why isn't he using his car?

[smsarber]

If you the author can't get into it after a mere few months away, how can you expect readers who know nothing of either you or the story to show interest?

EDIT: To clarify, I don't mean any offense. I just feel that if you can't get into a story YOU'VE WRITTEN by rereading it, then maybe you're not writing the right stories to begin with.


That's good stuff, Krintar. I am printing that post and tacking it to the wall by my computer to remind myself to think of how the readers will recieve what I write.

[Amb the Creative]

If you the author can't get into it after a mere few months away, how can you expect readers who know nothing of either you or the story to show interest?

EDIT: To clarify, I don't mean any offense. I just feel that if you can't get into a story YOU'VE WRITTEN by rereading it, then maybe you're not writing the right stories to begin with.


I can LOVE a story to DEATH, but even at the second reread cause I know what's going to happen, I find myself falling asleep. And I'm not talking about my own stories.

[Krintar]

I can LOVE a story to DEATH, but even at the second reread cause I know what's going to happen, I find myself falling asleep. And I'm not talking about my own stories.
If you lose all interest in a story after one pass, writing is probably not for you - Writing Is Rewriting after all. And if your attitude to your own work is not the aforementioned, then why make a comment like that? It's irrelevant.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

"Writing is probably not for you" is rarely a justifiable sentence, especially when it's short for "If the things that work for me don't work for you as a writer, then writing is probably not for you."

Every writer should be a reader, but not every writer is a rereader. Seems like I've heard lots of writer friends say that they don't enjoy rereading. And yet they are writers.

Amb: Since I am a rereader, I have no good advice to offer the non-rereader on how to make revisions, or revisions after a manuscript's had some drawer-time, more feasible. But I'm sure there must be, because many successful writers are non-rereaders after all.

When I pull a manuscript out of the drawer after it's been sitting there awhile, sometimes I find I come to it as though it were a story someone else wrote that I read a long time ago. I no longer have access to the thoughts I had when I was writing it, but then they can't get in my way anymore either. Rewriting it at this point means it will become something different from what I intended when I wrote it--and generally that's a good thing.

When you do succeed at a rewrite, what worked for you?