Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2 [Archive] - Page 3

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James D. Macdonald

11-15-2009, 09:24 AM

Thanks all. The most common advice from those in the know seems to be putting it aside for a while. If I had just forged ahead on my own, I would've probably gone right back into editing it and made one full edit through the book while it was fairly fresh in my mind (fixing blatant inconsistencies, for example), and then put it aside for a while so that when I came back to it it wouldn't seem quite so bad. What do you think of that Uncle Jim? Do you think can be good as well, or would you advise against it?

Does it work for you? If so, then by all means carry on.

------------------------

At some point you will have to deal with what's on the page, not what's in your head.

Will this necessarily be fun and easy? No....

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

11-15-2009, 09:49 AM

Thanks. I don't know yet if it works for me or not. I could try it. OTOH, if it sounds like a big enough mistake to those that have traveled the road and know things that I do not, then I would of course want to consider that.

Krintar

11-15-2009, 11:28 AM

"If the things that work for me don't work for you as a writer, then writing is probably not for you."
It's not short for that. Nobody was saying that. Rewriting is a very (many would say the most) important part of the process, one which just about always takes far longer than the first draft, and if you can't hold interest in a story through that part of the process then in all likelihood you'll never finish anything to a publishable standard; or, to put it more concisely, writing novels probably isn't for you.

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

11-15-2009, 11:36 AM

MacAllister

11-15-2009, 11:57 AM

SoloArtist, that's going to vary pretty wildly, depending on your process. Maybe Krintar's revisions take much, much longer than writing first draft. That's certainly not universal, though.

Krintar

11-15-2009, 12:00 PM

I give up. You people seem to be deliberately missing my point.

smsarber

11-15-2009, 12:05 PM

Soloartist, I hate to reread my own stuff. I find myself skimming passages. That makes editing harder than it has to be, still, it is a necessary process. Leaving a piece be for a while is widely-held as good advice--but that is all it is. Advice. There are no hard and fast rules to this. Try different approaches, you will find the one that works for you. There is a lot of trial and error in the writing world. I personally like to leave things for a while because when I get back to it I may see something that is totally different in the piece that I didn't even realize I had touched upon, or maybe a whole new direction it could go if I wanted to. It gives you possibilities you didn't know existed. But if you find that it works to write a story or a novel, then the next day start to edit and rewrite, then who are we to say it's wrong?

MacAllister

11-15-2009, 12:06 PM

I give up. You people seem to be deliberately missing my point.I rather suspect you're not being nearly as clear as you think. It's a fairly common phenomenon. You've made a couple of broad assertions as if they were universal truths, and other writers -- experienced writers, too, some of us -- may tend to resist that.

What did you expect? Obsequious agreement?

bearilou

11-15-2009, 07:23 PM

I rather suspect you're not being nearly as clear as you think. It's a fairly common phenomenon. You've made a couple of broad assertions as if they were universal truths, and other writers -- experienced writers, too, some of us -- may tend to resist that.

What did you expect? Obsequious agreement?

I suppose I would be interested in hearing what the writing non-rereaders do for their revision process since I think that would benefit Solo the most.

James D. Macdonald

11-15-2009, 08:44 PM

Back in the old days of the pulps, some of the pulp writers (Mighty Men and Women of Yore, TM) were able to write publishable first drafts. Out of the typewriter, into the envelope, then on to the next.

Where will we find their like again?

For myself, I hate my first drafts. They're horrible. Cringeworthy. I feel this way even if others who read them are praising them. I recognize that the reaction is mine, and subjective. What helps me is some time to get away from remembering how wonderful I thought it would be before I started, and how much I've fallen short of how I'd imagined it.

Thanks. I don't know yet if it works for me or not. I could try it.

You should try it. You should try lots of things. How else will you find what works for you?

"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne,
Thassay so hard, so sharp the conquering,
The dredful Ioy, that alwey slit so yerne...."

-- Geoffrey Chaucer (The Parliament of Fowls)

BigWords

11-15-2009, 09:56 PM

Back in the old days of the pulps, some of the pulp writers (Mighty Men and Women of Yore, TM) were able to write publishable first drafts. Out of the typewriter, into the envelope, then on to the next.

Lester Dent, Joe Archibald, William Hope Hodgson... Maybe even a few others.

I can't remember the name of the author, but there was a guy who started typing and once he reached his page count he sent it off to the publishers, starting tryping straight away for his next book. (It's the guy whose books Neil Gaiman collects, if that rings any bells...)

Izz

11-15-2009, 11:19 PM

I suppose I would be interested in hearing what the writing non-rereaders do for their revision process since I think that would benefit Solo the most.I'm not a rereader, generally, but i'm able to do lots of editing passes on my own stories (short fiction or novel length). For me it's an attitude thing. When i read a novel written by someone else my primary focus is to enjoy the story. Once i know the story i don't see any point in rereading (there are exceptions, but they're very few and far between). However, when i reread/edit my own work my focus is different. It's not to enjoy the story, it's to improve the story. Reading critically rather than for pleasure. To begin with it took a whole lot of effort to get into that mode, but now i have no trouble flicking the switch.

If only flicking it back off was as easy...

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

11-16-2009, 12:45 AM

Izz

11-16-2009, 01:20 AM

Just so I'm clear on this, when you talk about someone who is a rereader and someone who is not a rereader, what does that mean?

A rereader puts the work aside for a while and then rereads it? And a non-rereader does not do that?I was using the term in the context that AMB the Creative used it, which i understood to be reading something again after having read it once (either my own work or someone else's work). So conversely, someone who is not a rereader would be someone who does not enjoy reading books that they've already read.

James D. Macdonald

11-16-2009, 01:54 AM

Something else about the pulps: In those days copyeditors had latitude. They could do anything with the stories that they wanted. H. P. Lovecraft worked as a copyeditor, and he would throw Cthulhu material into the unlikeliest places.

BigWords

11-16-2009, 04:07 AM

Now I have to hunt through old romance pulps to see if I can spot anything weird. :)

Amb the Creative

11-16-2009, 04:09 AM

If you lose all interest in a story after one pass, writing is probably not for you - Writing Is Rewriting after all. And if your attitude to your own work is not the aforementioned, then why make a comment like that? It's irrelevant.

Rewriting is a very (many would say the most) important part of the process, one which just about always takes far longer than the first draft, and if you can't hold interest in a story through that part of the process then in all likelihood you'll never finish anything to a publishable standard; or, to put it more concisely, writing novels probably isn't for you.

Intended offense or not, I'm taking this as a challenge.

If I'm not meant to write novels, then I'm screwed cause I can't see myself doing anything else.

Perhaps the reason it doesn't work with me is that I haven't completely forgotten a piece before going back to it. I was working on just one project at the time. Now I'm working on another novel, but I still am working on the rewrite of the first simply because I cannot stand to have it sit any longer without anything being done on it.

HConn

11-16-2009, 04:14 AM

There are some writers who never go back to edit a book after they finish a draft. They write a paragraph, fiddle with it, revise it, get it where they want, then never touch it again except on editorial order. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Amb the Creative

11-16-2009, 04:20 AM

I say edit once then get feedback. Cause without that feedback, how do you know how to edit what?

smsarber

11-16-2009, 07:01 AM

Amb the Creative, don't let anyone--especially someone who doesn't know you and hasn't read your work--tell you you don't have what it takes to be a novelist. Nobody has the right to say something like that, and on behalf of the rest of us here at AW, I apologize for Krintar's statement. Too many good writer's have been discouraged by less.

Keep writing!

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

11-16-2009, 07:22 AM

Thanks man, although I don't think anyone said that to me in this discussion. Krintar was responding to someone else at the time s/he said that.

smsarber

11-16-2009, 02:46 PM

Thanks man, although I don't think anyone said that to me in this discussion. Krintar was responding to someone else at the time s/he said that.
You're right, oopsie! I edited my post to address Amb the Creative. I guess I got a little confused *blushing* ;)

euclid

11-16-2009, 05:23 PM

May I change the subject?

Jim, I've had a friend read chapter 1 of my new WIP. He picked out three phrases that he said were "passive" constructions.

I'm not at all clear what this means, or why these should be weeded out. I did a search to see if I could find something about this in Volume 1, but without much success. Could you point me at a relevant post?

Thanks.

smsarber

11-16-2009, 06:11 PM

Here's a thread for you, Euclid: Passive Form... why everybody hates it (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160663&highlight=passive+construction). As it anything else, it has its place. But it is considered wrong to use verbs in passive voice in creative writing. Why, somebody else will have to answer.

HConn

11-16-2009, 07:18 PM

I say edit once then get feedback. Cause without that feedback, how do you know how to edit what?

Which is fine for learning to write, but the goal ought to be the ability to judge the quality of your own work. Beta readers are great, but it's more important to [URL deleted at webmaster's request--JDM]be the expert.

euclid

11-16-2009, 08:23 PM

Amb the Creative

11-16-2009, 08:37 PM

Which is fine for learning to write, but the goal ought to be the ability to judge the quality of your own work. Beta readers are great, but it's more important to [URL deleted by webmaster's request]be the expert.

But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work? I often end up trying to fix something that should be scrapped and redone until someone pointed it out and/or read some piece of information on how to fix it. Isn't it this process that teaches you how to judge yourself?

smsarber

11-16-2009, 08:46 PM

Blue Sky

11-17-2009, 12:23 AM

But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work? I often end up trying to fix something that should be scrapped and redone until someone pointed it out and/or read some piece of information on how to fix it. Isn't it this process that teaches you how to judge yourself?

Yes, feedback helps immeasurably. You need feedback to help get your bearings and discover where and how your writing stands. Wear your rhinohide suit. Ooo how crits hurt sometimes! Remember what Jim says. Readers may know that something isn't right, but rarely know the reason why or how to correct it.

I've found informed, honest readers priceless, so I'm mindful of their time. I balance whether to share something early with a person based on our prior interaction. If the reader enjoys navigating rough drafts, perhaps I'll share. If unpolished work offends, I'll share only after polishing. It's a touchy feelie thing.

Whatever you do, keep writing. A number of successful writers--Bradbury to name one, Jim?--mention how they hit their stride somewhere around the million word mark. The ability to edit one's work grows with experience--in my experience. Enjoy the journey!

NicoleJLeBoeuf

11-17-2009, 02:50 AM

But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work?
I tend to self-judge whether I have created a piece of fiction that reads enjoyably--language that flows, images that please the inner eye, etc.--because I know what I like to read. Improving this sense has been an organic process of life-long reading, really. I think it's easier for me because I do reread my favorite books, which I enjoy doing not just to experience a beloved story over again but also to figure out how the author did those things that made me so happy.

What I find critiques valuable for is finding out whether what was in my head actually made it onto the page and into the reader's head, and whether what I've written is enjoyable for them to read too. Incorporating this sort of feedback and producing a new draft that is still true to the story in my head and succeeds better at getting it into someone else's is a challenge that I suspect will always remain difficult for me, but rewarding when I get it right.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

11-17-2009, 02:52 AM

(It's the guy whose books Neil Gaiman collects, if that rings any bells...)
Which one? (http://blog.shelfari.com/my_weblog/2009/09/neil.html)

Fillanzea

11-17-2009, 03:18 AM

That was a very helpful link, Steve. Thanks. I read buckets of learned stuff about the passive voice, including some inspired stuff from Jim. I'm much clearer about it now. I think I know when the passive voice can be useful and when it shouldn't be used.

I followed another thread about Strunk and White which was I found quite educational too.

Sorry, but I have to interject, because identifying the passive voice correctly is one of my pet peeves.

NOUN is/was/used to be ADJECTIVE is not passive. It's not necessarily a very strong construction and it's often worth avoiding, but it's not the same as the passive voice. Passive is only if the verb is being done to the subject of the sentence.

The reports were falsified.
My elderly neighbors were defrauded.
Mistakes were made.

bearilou

11-17-2009, 06:08 PM

Which one? (http://blog.shelfari.com/my_weblog/2009/09/neil.html)

Holy cow. That's a lot of books and now I don't feel so bad about my own, apparently meager, collection.

BigWords

11-18-2009, 05:14 AM

Which one? (http://blog.shelfari.com/my_weblog/2009/09/neil.html)

I guess I should have expected that. ;)

Found the genius / madman (delete as applicable): Harry Stephen Keeler (http://home.williampoundstone.net/Keeler/Home.html).

ETA: This (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26867/26867-h/26867-h.htm).

euclid

11-18-2009, 01:30 PM

BigWords: Are you saying that Neil Gaiman has some of Keeler's work in his library?

James D. Macdonald

11-18-2009, 10:19 PM

I just posted this in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4276710#post4276710), but I think I'll repost it here:

Check out any best-seller list. Look at the top five or ten names.

Where did they publish their first books? Same place, right?

Now look at those publishing houses. They have lots of best-sellers, right?

So: If you want to be a best-seller, make sure your first book comes out from a house that regularly publishes best-sellers.

----------

Why five or ten names? Because doing the research on a hundred won't change the results but will take quite a bit of time.

---------

Meanwhile, over at CNN: Sarah Palin's publishing and political worlds in collision (http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/18/matalin.palin.book/index.html)

We read, from Mary Matalin:

Full disclosure: Threshold Editions, an imprint of Simon and Schuster, (for which I serve as editor-in-chief, a misnomer of a title, since my editing is confined to reading; for you political types, think, "operative/organizer") would have loved to acquire Sarah Palin's book.

And ...

We are now all watching very closely how it plays out (and more precisely, "earns-out") in a book market that's unpredictable and fickle always, but in major transition today. The pre-orders immediately kicked it onto the best-seller lists, but a dirty little secret of publishing (where spin is as prevalent as in politics) is not all best-sellers earn out (i.e., the publisher sells enough books to cover an author's advance, which is the threshold for making a profit).

At which point I pinch the bridge of my nose and shake my head. I think "for which I serve as figurehead" would have been more accurate than "for which I serve as editor-in-chief." It's clear that she hasn't a clue about the business side of the house, and didn't check with any of the day-to-day editors, or the publisher.

In sober fact, the publisher makes a profit long before the book earns out. (Exception: when the advance is some ludicrous amount that is offered for something other than book-selling business reasons. When they start playing that game, all I can say is, "Don't gamble with money you can't afford to lose.")

Still, any number of people are going to see that codswallop, and think that an Editor Said So, So It Must Be True.

BigWords

11-18-2009, 11:52 PM

BigWords: Are you saying that Neil Gaiman has some of Keeler's work in his library?

Gaiman answers this himself through his journal (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2004/07/catching-up.asp). Alan Moore is also mentioned as having Keeler's books by Gaiman, and in the article (which prompted the answer in the jounal) it's mentioned that Matt Groening (yes, the Simpsons creator) is also a fan.

HConn

11-19-2009, 12:08 AM

maestrowork

11-19-2009, 12:15 AM

That's why reading widely and the ability to do critical analysis on what you read are so important. A) you know what you like and you tend to write what you like and know. B) By understanding why you like them, you have a better chance of getting it right (but not necessarily "imitating") because you'd have internalized everything already.

To me, "reading widely" and "critical analysis" go hand in hand. Some writers believe as long as they read, they will become good writers. That's not really true, or else everyone who reads a lot would be best-selling authors already. I firmly believe that we must learn to analyze and internalize what we read if we want to learn to write well.

Izz

11-19-2009, 01:43 AM

Meanwhile, over at CNN: Sarah Palin's publishing and political worlds in collision (http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/18/matalin.palin.book/index.html)

We read, from Mary Matalin:

And ...

At which point I pinch the bridge of my nose and shake my head. I think "for which I serve as figurehead" would have been more accurate than "for which I serve as editor-in-chief." It's clear that she hasn't a clue about the business side of the house, and didn't check with any of the day-to-day editors, or the publisher.

In sober fact, the publisher makes a profit long before the book earns out. (Exception: when the advance is some ludicrous amount that is offered for something other than book-selling business reasons. When they start playing that game, all I can say is, "Don't gamble with money you can't afford to lose.")

Still, any number of people are going to see that codswallop, and think that an Editor Said So, So It Must Be True.What's with all the misinformation and disingenuousness we're getting from major publishers right now? Harlequin's new 'self-publishing' arm (outright lie, that one) and this, and there's a couple other examples on the tip of my tongue. What gives?

Calliopenjo

11-19-2009, 02:26 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

While hunting character interview questions I happened upon a page that said character traits can help tell the reader what the character looks like. Help them to imagine what they look like.

Words like thoughtful, sly, slovenly, caring, etc. are listed on the page. If I say that the character is a caring and intelligent human being wouldn't that be telling leading the reader in my direction rather than letting them interpret the story on their own?

eqb

11-19-2009, 02:33 AM

Albannach

11-19-2009, 03:10 AM

Oh, I know this is late, but thanks for posting the index to the first one. I wanted to read it but the length is so intimidating.

James D. Macdonald

11-19-2009, 06:01 AM

If I say that the character is a caring and intelligent human being wouldn't that be telling leading the reader in my direction rather than letting them interpret the story on their own?

Well, leading the readers in the direction we want them to go is pretty much what this whole art is about. The trick is doing it so they don't know they're being led (or if they do know, so they enjoy it).

In other news: Yesterday brought the first two author's pre-release copies of the paperback The Apocalypse Door (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0765306085). It's getting real.

Today brought a new computer (that I must set up). If I vanish, that's why.

Also today, news of the release date for Lincoln's Sword (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/lincolns_sword.htm). Be the first Cool Kid on your block to preorder!

Calliopenjo

11-19-2009, 06:20 AM

Thanks guys. Sometimes it's the simple things that I forget. :Hug2:

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

11-19-2009, 06:23 AM

On the topic of books earning out, here is a blog post (http://gropenassoc.com/blog/2007/09/if-the-advance-doesnt-earn-out-is-the-book-unprofitable/) I found on the subject. It mentions one other possibility for books not being profitable once they're earned out.

Calliopenjo

11-19-2009, 07:11 AM

On another website, somebody posted this link. It's Tom's Glossary of Book Publishing Terms (http://www.rightreading.com/publishing/publishing-glossary.htm).

It's a hilarious look at the terms we hear.

entrancia

11-23-2009, 04:56 AM

Hi, Jim,
I was wondering, is writing short poems good for practicing the writing of novels? I know it would help me for the sake of learning flow, word choice, and images to do so, but would skills in poetry really carry over that much to writing a novel (especially if the poems have no plot or storyline), or are the two just a little too seperate? Should I just write poetry for poems and stories for novels?
I feel like this is a stupid question, but I still can't think of a completely right answer for it. :P

James D. Macdonald

11-23-2009, 10:14 PM

1) No writing is wasted.

2) Picking the exactly-right word is a skill that can be improved with practice.

3) Writing poetry will teach you how to write poetry; writing a novel will teach you how to write novels. Letting one substitute for the other can become cat-waxing.

4) There's no reason why you can't do both.

5) Whatever you do, don't forget that the process only ends when you send the product to a market that can buy it.

euclid

11-23-2009, 10:35 PM

Jim, I stumbled across one of your shorts on the web. It was about Beka at Suivi Point with LeSoit. I liked it. Spotted a couple of minor typos of course (as I always do). Nice story. Some interesting touches. The story was called "On Suivi Point". I found it here:

www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/L_suivi.htm

You should work "catwaxing" into one of your stories as a futuristic and entirely decadent form of relaxation. :)

James D. Macdonald

11-24-2009, 08:26 AM

A new version of the Lincoln's Sword cover (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/lincolnsswordmed.jpg). Just got it from the publisher today.

Spotted a couple of minor typos of course

If you tell me what the typos are, I can fix them.

Izz

11-24-2009, 09:34 AM

A new version of the Lincoln's Sword cover (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/lincolnsswordmed.jpg). Just got it from the publisher today.That's a beautiful cover, Uncle Jim. Almost worth getting a full-size print and framing it, i reckon.

smsarber

11-24-2009, 10:55 AM

I second that--they really did a good job!

On another note, I'm halfway through "Land of Mist and Snow." I really enjoy it, but I'm going slower than normal reading it for two reasons--I'm really eating up your's and Debra's prose, and since I feel like I know you, I'm giving it maybe some extra attention. And I've been pumping out short stories and working on the NaNo novel, so reading time has been cut down a little. I should finish it in four days, by my guess.

smsarber

11-24-2009, 01:11 PM

allenparker

11-24-2009, 06:35 PM

Not Uncle Jim, but thought I might shed some light.

Uncle Jim,

So, the questions are: Is it easier for a screenwriter to get away with things of this nature than a novelist? Do you think that if we see something on tv, and it doesn't quite make sense, we're more prone to 'let it go' than if we read it in a book? Because I know you can tell any lie you want in fiction, IF you tell it believingly. But I've had critiques where someone has said "I just don't see this happening." And I have seen things on television that I have the same reaction to, but dismiss it. Is this because we are closer to what we read in a novel than what we see on television?

You can tell any lie as long as you are able to make your reader suspend disbelief. He has to believe that what happened could in fact happen, no matter how silly it might seem.

smsarber

11-24-2009, 07:08 PM

Not Uncle Jim, but thought I might shed some light.

You can tell any lie as long as you are able to make your reader suspend disbelief. He has to believe that what happened could in fact happen, no matter how silly it might seem.
Well, yeah, that's basically what I said. But my question was if there is a difference in how it should be done in novel writing as opposed to what we might see in tv shows. Every writer is going to see at least some tv, and possibly be influenced by aspects of what they view. But it seems to me that in a lot of tv the writers either cut corners big time, or expect the viewing public to just take it all with a grain of salt. Or maybe they just think we're idiots, lol;).

euclid

11-24-2009, 07:17 PM

You can tell any lie as long as you are able to make your reader suspend disbelief. He has to believe that what happened could in fact happen, no matter how silly it might seem.

They tend to stick in your mind, though, and they annoy the heck out of me, like bits of food stuck between the teeth. I'm thinking of a few episodes of Star Trek Voyager in particular. There was one where the victim of a murder came back to life to cause havoc after his autopsy, and several episodes where members of the crew were altered genetically and the doctor reversed the effects with no problem at all. There was one episode where Janeway and someone else (Chacotay?) were transformed into small spotted creatures before the doc saved the day.

euclid

11-24-2009, 07:21 PM

she constantly refuses to believe whatever she cannot prove by hard science.

Nothing at all wrong with this. I refuse to believe in anything at variance with science.

HConn

11-24-2009, 11:21 PM

Uncle Jim,

I've been watching The X Files, and a couple of questions came up. Okay, first: I'm no expert, but I am fairly certain the FBI has more authority than the local police department. However, Mulder and Skully are repeatedly pushed around by county/city/town police. Second: After all the things Skully sees (or misses by a fraction of a second), even though she is (her character is a doctor as well as an agent) intelligent, she constantly refuses to believe whatever she cannot prove by hard science.

So, the questions are: Is it easier for a screenwriter to get away with things of this nature than a novelist? Do you think that if we see something on tv, and it doesn't quite make sense, we're more prone to 'let it go' than if we read it in a book? Because I know you can tell any lie you want in fiction, IF you tell it believingly. But I've had critiques where someone has said "I just don't see this happening." And I have seen things on television that I have the same reaction to, but dismiss it. Is this because we are closer to what we read in a novel than what we see on television?

A couple things are at work here, I think: First, the person giving you a critique knows the work is still at a formative stage, and is less likely to shrug off something that they find problematic. On TV, once it's aired, it's done, and while the audience might Fan Wank (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank) a problem away, they might as well shrug it off. People reading for critique are also less tolerant of the Shrug of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod).

As for Scully's stubborn skepticism, any series has to keep things The Same But Different, as E.E. Knight says. Each story has to be different enough to hold fans' interest, but still contain all the things they liked about earlier books.

In a series of novels, that's not too bad, if the series isn't too long. For TV shows, they have 20+ episodes year after year, and if Scully loses her skepticism and becomes a wild-eyed believer like Mulder, the show loses that dynamic (and the excuse to exposition all over the audience with Mulder's ridiculous theories).

Yeah, it can reach ridiculous extremes, but poor TV! Traditionally, they have to hit the Reset Button (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ResetButton) on their characters after every episode.

FOTSGreg

11-25-2009, 01:02 AM

In regards to editing, rereading, and re-editing, I just received the review of Chapter 12 (of 44) of my book Hatchings from Feidb today. He is seeing things that I never would have and never have through 7, count 'em 7, drafts of this book - passive phrasings, POV violations, drone-on sentences, info-dumps, and a few other sundry items.

It's a perfect example of how, no matter how hard we try, we can become "snow blind" in regards to our own work and a perfect example of why it's necessary to have someone else beta-read the entire work, not just short pieces of it.

When Feidb is done, I anticipate I'll be able to sit down and correct the multitude of problems with this book that has prevented it from being accepted by agents in the past and he has my thanks for that.

All the problems aside, he does say that he's enjoying it regardless.

Calliopenjo

11-25-2009, 04:23 AM

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

Just in case you happened to stop on by. I hope Uncle Jim enjoys the holiday.

Update: Archipelago-4th revision: 80% done.
Eloise-1st draft: 3 chapters complete. About 4 more to go.
Vampire Hunter (Working title)-1st draft: 5 chapters complete.
About 3 more to go.

So what does this mean? I've been busy and that I thank Uncle Jim every time I put my hands on the keyboard and start writing.

smsarber

11-25-2009, 04:37 AM

Yes, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all of us aspiring future and already acomplished novelists. Keep in mind all the things we are thankful for this Thursday: our freedom, our families, our creative imaginations. Thank a soldier, thank your mom and dad, thank your kids. Thanks Uncle Jim for this thread that started so long ago, and grew into possibly the most helpful resourse for novelists on the web.

Thanksgiving is no time to slack on your writing, take a notebook and pen with you to dinner at the Aunt's or Grandma's, listen to the members of your family tell stories, pay attention to detail, jot down notes, who knows... your next great character may come from something you hear.

rosiroo

11-25-2009, 03:32 PM

Great advice smsarber! :)

HConn

11-25-2009, 08:34 PM

I skimmed through it again (cat-waxing). Couldn't find them all. I know there were two more...

You could have emailed these, yano.

euclid

11-25-2009, 08:45 PM

You could have emailed these, yano.

Yes, stupid of me. Will do.

euclid

11-26-2009, 09:36 PM

I had an agent interested (since March last) in my WWII WIP3. He asked me to do a couple of rewrites, which I did. I stopped querying it. On Monday of this week I asked him if he was still interested and he said no, but he encouraged me to send it out to other agents. He says there is a market there for "good material like this".

Am I downhearted? Not a bit of it. I sent it out to the next two agents on my list, and today, I wrote 3,300 words in my new thriller (WIP4). This is way above my daily average (about 1200 words).

I am a writer! :)

PS: You were right, Jim, this book is writing itself!

James D. Macdonald

11-27-2009, 01:51 AM

Any time my friend Esther Friesner gets a story back (and it happens to all of us, all the darned time), she says, "Your loss, Toots," and mails it back out.

And my friend Jen Pelland (less well known, no less brilliant) treats herself to dinner out, every hundred rejections.

That's what makes the pro a pro.

And a story that writes itself means you're on the right track. (The converse, a story that fights you every inch of the way, does not mean that you're on the wrong track.)

James D. Macdonald

11-27-2009, 02:38 AM

A dramatic reading of Atlanta Nights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBPek_3wY0), chapter by chapter....

Izz

11-27-2009, 02:59 AM

And my friend Jen Pelland (less well known, no less brilliant) treats herself to dinner out, every hundred rejections.Oooh, good idea. I'll probably hit 100 short story rejections for the year by mid-December (fortunately i've made sales to some good markets in amongst that and had favorable rejections from other good markets, so the number isn't depressing at all). Yes, dinner out sounds like a great plan.

(The converse, a story that fights you every inch of the way, does not mean that you're on the wrong track.) I've been working on a novella for the last eighteen months and i'm still only halfway through the first draft. Man, it's a battle to get words on the page. I've been wondering whether it's worthwhile to keep going (i usually write a novel first draft in 30-40 days), but something keeps bringing me back to it.

So the above is good to hear. Thank you.

euclid

11-27-2009, 04:10 AM

A dramatic reading of Atlanta Nights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBPek_3wY0), chapter by chapter....

Were you involved in writing this epic, Jim?

I enjoyed chapters 1 and 2. :)

James D. Macdonald

11-27-2009, 06:06 AM

I was indeed involved in writing Atlanta Nights (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006032.html).

euclid

11-27-2009, 01:25 PM

Maybe time for a sequel? Atlanta nights 2.

Its actually quiet difficult to write that badly (on porpoise, I mean - I can do it with my eyes closed when I dont mean to)

euclid

11-27-2009, 03:32 PM

Have you seen this?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/susanhill/5575828/theres-bookshops-and-then.thtml

Not good news

smsarber

11-27-2009, 03:38 PM

Maybe time for a sequel? Atlanta nights 2.

Its actually quiet difficult to write that badly (on porpoise, I mean - I can do it with my eyes closed when I dont mean to)
Maybe you should try to write bad on purpose all the time--then, by reverse psychology, you should always write the best stuff of your life, lol.:roll:

JenPelland

11-27-2009, 06:19 PM

And my friend Jen Pelland (less well known, no less brilliant) treats herself to dinner out, every hundred rejections.

Actually, it's not dinner out, it's beer with my friends. I hand everyone a beer, then hold mine up in the air and say, "To 100 rejections. Fuck 'em all!"

At which point, my friends hoist their beers in the air and chorus, "Fuck 'em all!"

It's amazingly cathartic.

allenparker

11-27-2009, 08:07 PM

__
The Apocalypse Door
http://www.sff.net/people/Doylemacdonald/apocalypse_door_small.jpg
Preorder now! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0765306085/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/)

How many people catch the Peter and Simon name game?

euclid

11-27-2009, 08:29 PM

I spent the afternoon researching Jennifer Pelland's work, reading a couple of her articles. Then I ordered her book.

JenPelland

11-27-2009, 09:37 PM

I spent the afternoon researching Jennifer Pelland's work, reading a couple of her articles. Then I ordered her book.

You are my new favorite person :D

smsarber

11-27-2009, 09:57 PM

I spent the afternoon researching Jennifer Pelland's work, reading a couple of her articles. Then I ordered her book.
Suck up!;)

James D. Macdonald

11-27-2009, 11:20 PM

Suck up!;)

Yanno, you could do worse than to buy Jen's book yourself....

Meanwhile, I've posted something pretty extensive elsewhere (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163317&page=6), that I think I'll import into this thread:

================================

Why you can't sell a very-long work to a print publisher as a first novel:

The price per unit goes down as the print run goes up. The cost per unit goes up as the page count goes up.

Publishers know, from long experience, how many copies of a first novel from an unknown will sell in their genre, with their distribution, with their capacity for marketing and promotion. Some novels will sell more, some less, but there is an average number, and the individual publishers know what it is for them.

Let us say that Publisher X knows that the average first novel from an unknown sells 10,000 copies. That means that they must print 15,000 copies. That'll be the print run.

Publishers also know what the maximum amount the reading public will pay for any novel. Above a certain price point, not even a new and well-reviewed novel from a favorite author will sell. Let us say that that cover price is $30.00.

One other thing that the publishers know is what discount the bookstores demand. Let us say that the bookstores demand a 50% discount.

I have chosen all these numbers purely to make the math easier. But there are real numbers, and the publishers know them all.

Print run: Fixed number.
Price point: Fixed number.
Discount: Fixed number.
Page count: Variable.

What is the only variable? Page count.

Publishers also know how much money each book must earn to pay their fixed expenses. The rent. The lights. The editors' salaries. The book catalogs. The marketing staff.

They know how much money the particular book must earn to pay for itself: the author's advance, the cover art, the printing, the warehousing, the shipping.

All of these numbers, too, are fixed numbers.

There is a certain amount of profit per title that the publisher wants to make. This may be more of a pious hope, but it, too, is a real number. And the publisher knows what that number is for them.

As page count rises, cost rises. At some point, cost will rise above the profitability number. At that point, you will not sell your first novel to that publisher.

What is that magic page count? This will vary publisher-to-publisher. But it is generally held that the number is well below 300,000 words.

What to do about this, if you have a work that absolutely must be 300,000 words?

1) Write and publish a number of shorter works, to build a fan base, so that your expected sales go up, bringing cost per unit down, and bringing total cost into line with the expected profit target. This includes writing and selling other novels of a more typical length for the market.

2) Seek alternative publication, e.g. e-pubs, where the cost-per-unit is not based on the bill from the printer's plant, the number of physical volumes that can fit in a crate, and the number of crates that can fit on truck.

To agents for a moment. The best agent in the world can't sell an unpublishable manuscript. More to the point, the best agent in the world won't even try to sell an unpublishable manuscript. The best agent in the world became the best agent by only showing up at the publisher's office when he or she had a publishable manuscript in hand. For the reasons set forth above, 300,000 words from an unknown author is unpublishable. End of story.

-------------

Notes: The Lord of the Rings has been mentioned. Note that Tolkien was not a first-time unknown author presenting his first novel.

Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell was a debut book. It followed nearly a decade of award-winning short works that built a fan base, and it sold to a large publisher that had the marketing resources to sell enough copies that a print run long enough to bring the cover price into line with buyer expectations was possible.

Both Tolkien and Clarke also fall under the Genius Exemption: The closer you are to the edge of the envelope, the closer to genius you must be.

I can hear you object: But MY BOOK will be DIFFERENT! And I am a genius!

No, your book is not different. And if you are, in fact, a genius, prove it: Prove it with award-winning and best selling works.

FOTSGreg

11-27-2009, 11:44 PM

Uncle Jim wrote, a story that fights you every inch of the way, does not mean that you're on the wrong track

ROTFLMAO because I've got one in the hopper right now that started off great. but which is now fighting me tooth and nail it seems. One of my main characters simply doesn't seem to want too much of his real story told and he definitely doesn't want to be the hero of this book even though he knows damned well what's going to happen if he doesn't do something. Instead, he's running, trying to escape and I have to keep sending the terrorists after him and thinking up new ways to keep him inside the area he's in.

Meanwhile, I've got another main character who's desperately in need of his help, a major character who could really use his help, and a villain who's so diabolical that without the help of the main character he's going to win (or at least be able to kill an awful lot of people).

Bleghhh!

James D. Macdonald

11-28-2009, 12:09 AM

How many people catch the Peter and Simon name game?

More than that... how many people catch The Stations of the Cross? There is a ton of little jokes and games and Catholic fun.

smsarber

11-28-2009, 12:38 AM

Yanno, you could do worse than to buy Jen's book yourself....

I will, eventually... it only took me about three months from the time I said I'd order Land of Mist and Snow to actually be able to buy it, lol.:)

euclid

11-28-2009, 01:19 AM

So, if the publisher's calculations limit a book to 300,000 words, does that mean that a short book - say 75,000 words - has a better chance of being profitable (and therefore published)?

James D. Macdonald

11-28-2009, 01:37 AM

Yes, a shorter book has a better chance of being profitable, and therefore publishable.

But be advised that there's also a lower limit. There's a certain income that any book must achieve (rent, utilities, salaries, etc) and therefore a certain cover price. Readers won't pay the necessary minimum price for books that are too short and therefore don't appear to provide value-for-money.

This is why publishers exist. To make those calculations and to deliver books to readers. Squirrelly as publishing can be, it does one thing very, very well. It puts fiction in readers' hands.

As to bookshops closing: High Street is a high-rent district. Bookstores are marginal at best. And ... while the means of delivery is always changing, the ability to tell lies that others want to hear is a rare one. People with rare abilities can always make their way.

Writing is a precarious occupation. What else is new?

smsarber

11-28-2009, 02:13 AM

That's why I think the hold-in-your-hands book will never become obsolete.

allenparker

11-28-2009, 02:29 AM

More than that... how many people catch The Stations of the Cross? There is a ton of little jokes and games and Catholic fun.

Me! Me! Oh, Oh, Mr MacDonald! <waves hand wildly in Horshack manner>

I can't wait for someone to actually get one of my inside jokes for the readers in one of my books.

smsarber

11-28-2009, 03:16 PM

I wanted to add: Ms. Pelland, I meant no disrespect when I called Euclid a "Suck up" for ordering your book. I was engaging in one of my favorite pastimes: teasing Euclid. :)

euclid

11-28-2009, 03:35 PM

This is a fun look at publishing: "On Meeting an Agent"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkxdALqPkYM

euclid

11-28-2009, 03:37 PM

You are my new favorite person :D

I need all the friends I can get!

JenPelland

11-29-2009, 02:43 AM

I wanted to add: Ms. Pelland, I meant no disrespect when I called Euclid a "Suck up" for ordering your book. I was engaging in one of my favorite pastimes: teasing Euclid. :)

Not a problem! But for your penance, you must buy a copy of my book for every adult on your [insert winter solstice holiday of choice] shopping list. DO NOT BUY IT FOR THE KIDDIES. You will get arrested. :whip:

smsarber

11-29-2009, 05:39 AM

Not a problem! But for your penance, you must buy a copy of my book for every adult on your [insert winter solstice holiday of choice] shopping list. DO NOT BUY IT FOR THE KIDDIES. You will get arrested. :whip:
Now I'm REALLY interested;)

BigWords

11-29-2009, 06:03 AM

DO NOT BUY IT FOR THE KIDDIES. You will get arrested. :whip:

How 'Mature Readers' is the book? Merely R rated or "OMFG, how did you get away with that"? I am so intrigued...

James D. Macdonald

11-29-2009, 06:03 AM

Jen, do you think it's time to teach them "The Vomit Song"?

eqb

11-29-2009, 07:44 AM

How 'Mature Readers' is the book? Merely R rated or "OMFG, how did you get away with that"? I am so intrigued...

Dark and twisted. And did I mention dark? And twisted?

But why trust me? Buy a copy!

Cliff Face

11-29-2009, 09:44 AM

Wow, is all I can say. This thread (and the much longer version 1) is like a writing course. Read all 26 pages in about 3-4 hours today, and now I'm worried that I won't make my daily word count for NaNo, but it was totally worth it.

Thanks all for being smart and chatty. :)

Izz

11-29-2009, 09:46 AM

Cliff Face

11-29-2009, 10:52 AM

I've read about 15 pages of it, and then lost my place. It was taking a lot longer than this thread did, because most of the posts were longer.

One day I'll get back to it. Probably when I've finished this WIP (mid-december) and edited this one and the previous one, and then sent it off to betas - then I can take a breath and try and get through the original. Because at that point, I'll only be working on a slow piece, so I won't be spending quite so many hours writing.

Izz

11-29-2009, 10:58 AM

Yar, it's a monster all right that's best slain piece by piece and when you've a-time for distractableness.

James D. Macdonald

11-29-2009, 07:48 PM

Finally, a book trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_jyXJTlrH0) that actually makes me want to read (http://www.bookcouncil.org.nz/writers/geem.html) the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0571170145/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Sn00py

11-30-2009, 09:18 AM

Awesome trailer. Thanks for the link, James.

rosiroo

11-30-2009, 08:52 PM

Have you read volume 1 of this thread yet?

It's the shizzle.

Tis indeed. I think there's a lovely summarised and archived version of it somewhere, I remember ploughing through it...*EDIT*

Ah yes, here it is: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987

I heart this thread so much. You're a genius, Uncle Jim.

Neversage

11-30-2009, 08:57 PM

Meanwhile, I've got another main character who's desperately in need of his help, a major character who could really use his help, and a villain who's so diabolical that without the help of the main character he's going to win (or at least be able to kill an awful lot of people).

Bleghhh!

It's just a shot in the dark, but maybe the other main character is the real hero here, and it's their job to get the first main character to fulfill his destiny?

Suggestions like this are thin ice to skate on, but even if it isn't even applicable, they usually lead me down a new line of thinking. Cheers!

Aidan Watson-Morris

11-30-2009, 11:45 PM

I never really got the whole book trailer thing...

JenPelland

12-01-2009, 12:21 AM

Jen, do you think it's time to teach them "The Vomit Song"?

It never hurts. Mind you, that story's not actually in the book.

And BigWords, the caution is mostly because it's rather dark, but there is sex in there that's illegal in many U.S. states. Although if I ever get the novel that my agent is currently shopping around published, the sex in that will make the sex in my collection look Puritanical.

Maxinquaye

12-01-2009, 12:40 AM

We could always do the hedgehog song instead.

James D. Macdonald

12-01-2009, 02:14 AM

The Vomit Song (to the tune of, and in the manner of, Bingo Was his Name-o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwcMYhX3ie8))

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
V-O-M-I-T
V-O-M-I-T
V-O-M-I-T
And vomit was its theme-o.

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
V-O-M-I-[clap]
V-O-M-I-[clap]
V-O-M-I-[clap]
And vomit was its theme-o.

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
V-O-M-[clap]-[clap]
V-O-M-[clap]-[clap]
V-O-M-[clap]-[clap]
And vomit was its theme-o.

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
V-O-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
V-O-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
V-O-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
And vomit was its theme-o.

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
V-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
V-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
V-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
And vomit was its theme-o.

There was a girl who wrote a tale
And vomit was its theme-o.
[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]-[clap]
And vomit was its theme-o.

smsarber

12-01-2009, 02:51 AM

So much wrong-ness there, Uncle Jim, I have even more respect for you now!

Almost finished with "Land of Mist and Snow," wow! Great! Unreal! You and Doyle could write a helluva horror novel, based on what I've read of this book. The tagline on the front cover of mine says: "An epic alternate history of dueling ships--and the ultimate war of dark magic and destiny"

That wasn't enough to prepare me for what waited between the covers. If I didn't have a bunch of stuff to do right now I'd sit down and not move until I reached "The End." As it is, I'll have to wait til tonight or tomorrow.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-01-2009, 03:30 AM

The girl's tale was themed what now?

James D. Macdonald

12-01-2009, 06:47 AM

So much wrong-ness there, Uncle Jim, I have even more respect for you now!

Shall I mention that The Vomit Song made its debut during a group dinner?

Many years ago, when we were writing YA horror, the publisher asked me for an outline. I sent it the next day, and the outline included this song (to the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic):

Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
But her legs go marching on.

Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Her legs go marching on.

We got the assignment, and I was informed that the entire Art Department was singing "Jenny Brody."

Maxinquaye

12-01-2009, 07:06 AM

I still think I prefer the hedhehog song. You can't sing it without alcohol. And you'll shock the neighbours, possibly into calling he police and/or the PETA.

The recipe for a perfect night.

Unfortunately I did not write it :(

James D. Macdonald

12-01-2009, 07:08 AM

The lesson here being, writing should be fun.

If you aren't having fun writing, well, why are you doing it?

Cliff Face

12-01-2009, 07:49 AM

I'm doing it out of peer pressure. ;)

Just kidding. No, I enjoy it, but I think more than the fun is the motivation to be paid for it. This is coming from an unemployed person on disability, so yeah...

But I agree if I didn't enjoy it there'd be no point.

smsarber

12-01-2009, 08:29 AM

The lesson here being, writing should be fun.

If you aren't having fun writing, well, why are you doing it?
I agree whole-heartedly. There was a period when I was feeling particularly "hackish" that I dreaded sitting down to try to write. Remember, I've only been doing this for four years, so when that hackish feeling set in I let it have control for a while. The unhappy result was about three months when I wrote nothing (well, next to nothing). It was worse than the hackish feeling. After I forced myself to write, I regained my confidence, and I felt better, my mood was better, I was a happier person. I do have fun writing--what can be more enjoyable than creating characters and worlds and conflicts in your mind, then getting them down on paper? The printed word gives the creation life... it is awesome.

Libbie

12-01-2009, 08:31 AM

A dramatic reading of Atlanta Nights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBPek_3wY0), chapter by chapter....

HAHAHAH

YES!!!

mario_c

12-01-2009, 09:02 AM

The lesson here being, writing should be fun.

If you aren't having fun writing, well, why are you doing it?The big payout coming my way. :ROFL: Oh, that's rich.
No seriously, it can be stressful. You don't know what you're going to write next, and you feel that what you've written is crap. You don't know anyone who can help you or publish / option / sell your work, and the odds of you meeting that lucky person are exactly zero. I guess you have to believe in the story, believe it matters, and believe in your power and effectiveness as a writer to have a reason to keep going.

Blue Sky

12-01-2009, 05:48 PM

Shall I mention that The Vomit Song made its debut during a group dinner?

Many years ago, when we were writing YA horror, the publisher asked me for an outline. I sent it the next day, and the outline included this song (to the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic):

Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
Jenny Brodie's bloody body's bundled in a body bag
But her legs go marching on.

Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Gory, gory Jenny Brody
Her legs go marching on.

We got the assignment, and I was informed that the entire Art Department was singing "Jenny Brody."

Reminds me of "Gory, Gory Halelujah" sung by troopers in the 82d Airborne Division also to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's been a loooong time and although I was a paratrooper, I was not in the Eighty-Deuce:

He was just a rookie trooper and he surely shook with fright
As he checked all his equipment and made sure his pack was tight
He had to sit and listen to those awful engines roar
He ain't gonna jump no more

Gory, gory what a helluva way to die
Gory, gory what a helluva way to die
Gory, gory what a helluva way to die
He ain't gonna jump no more

It goes on to paint the rookie trooper's unsuccessful parachute jump. Gory. Quite.

Oops! The formal name is "Blood on the Risers," for all you military graveyard humor fans.

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

12-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Duncan J Macdonald

12-01-2009, 08:29 PM

It's nice, but what language is that guy speaking?
The Queen's English, as practised in New Zealand.

Modog814

12-01-2009, 10:35 PM

Hi Uncle Jim,

Just wanted to thank you for these wonderful threads. I stumbled onto this site and spend the past 2 and a half weeks reading Volume 1 and 2. Very imformative and entertaining. I hope you have another Christmas Exercise instore for us.

Thanks.

Dan

Neversage

12-01-2009, 11:40 PM

The lesson here being, writing should be fun.

If you aren't having fun writing, well, why are you doing it?

Here's me having a little extra fun:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4320629#post4320629

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-02-2009, 05:00 AM

I do writing because it's fun, and solely because it's fun. I remember in grade school I could touch type, and the teachers were all amazed because I typed faster then their excersizes could go. Why? Because I wrote. A paragraph assignment in my hands turned into eight pages, ten size font. Of course, my grade school stories did lack that whole plot thing...

The Lonely One

12-02-2009, 05:40 AM

I feel as if we begin writing because it is fun. Then we continue writing as a form of learning to write. This learning to write points out the things about our writing which are not fun, and thus I feel the ultimate mastery of writing is again finding it fun.

Hmmm...

Calliopenjo

12-02-2009, 06:23 AM

To add a little something to this discussion. . .

I write because for me it's a fun adventure. Putting words together to create creatures, people, worlds, religions, etc. And doing the research to make it work. That's what works for me. I won't say I'm good at it, but I enjoy doing it. I learn along the way.

On a side note: I got, as an early Xmas present, the Sony eReader. It's because of that, I finally got a copy of Uncle Jim's book Land of Mist and Snow. Once it starts, it doesn't stop moving. Of course, being in first person helps. Something I haven't mastered yet. I can do it for about one thousand words, before it starts to change to third person. I'm working on it.

:e2writer:

Izz

12-02-2009, 06:30 AM

euclid

12-02-2009, 09:39 PM

I'm obsessive. I will keep writing books until I break into publishing.

I love it too.

Neversage

12-02-2009, 10:54 PM

I write because I met these people in my head, and if I don't tell their story, who will? They are really great people, and I feel I owe it to them, for being willing to share so much with me.

Shhh! I'm trying to talk to the nice forum posters!

Maxinquaye

12-02-2009, 11:01 PM

Shhh! I'm trying to talk to the nice forum posters!

We're all in your head too.

lucidzfl

12-02-2009, 11:09 PM

HAHAHAH

YES!!!

Oh my god. I'm crying at work. CRYING.

Neversage

12-03-2009, 03:12 AM

I'm reading Atlanta Nights for the first time. Did I just catch a "honey chile" in there?

lucidzfl

12-03-2009, 03:33 AM

Is it bad that I actually learned something from Atlanta Nights and am going to correct something in my own work? :(

euclid

12-03-2009, 03:34 AM

Be careful Neversage. It took me a half-day to recover.

Neversage

12-03-2009, 05:21 AM

Cliff Face

12-03-2009, 06:48 AM

I'm obsessive. I will keep writing books until I break into publishing.

I love it too.

I'd have to agree with this. I'm quite obsessive and will make sure I keep writing until I've been published.

Either that, or I'll die in a nursing home surrounded by 60 unloved manuscripts. :D

James D. Macdonald

12-03-2009, 07:21 AM

Also, is that second comma right up there? I never know if it's okay to put a comma outside of quotation marks.

Are you in Great Britain?

FOTSGreg

12-03-2009, 07:30 AM

Neversage wrote, It's just a shot in the dark, but maybe the other main character is the real hero here, and it's their job to get the first main character to fulfill his destiny?

Oh, yes. I've considered that angle and the situation will involve that basic theme as well, but first I have to get them together (he saves her life in their first meeting, they partner up to evade the enemy and try to get to the cops, and she then proceeds to convince him that he's not the monster he thinks he might be and that the situation they're facing needs him whether he's a monster or not).

FOTSGreg

12-03-2009, 07:32 AM

Uncle Jim, You mean writing isn't supposed to be kind of like self-flagellation practiced by some religious zealots?

Methinks I must be doing it wrong...

<exiting - stage left>

HConn

12-03-2009, 08:50 PM

I was about to say "my eyes, they burn," but it isn't my eyes at all. It is my mind, my very soul.

Also, is that second comma right up there? I never know if it's okay to put a comma outside of quotation marks.

I do it. If punctuation is required but isn't part of the original quote, I put it outside.

And if grammar rules say that's wrong, then grammar should be changed to match my preferences.

Hmph!

Neversage

12-03-2009, 11:02 PM

Are you in Great Britain?

Pacific Northwest United States. I am immune to rain.

Neversage

12-03-2009, 11:04 PM

Oh, yes. I've considered that angle and the situation will involve that basic theme as well, but first I have to get them together (he saves her life in their first meeting, they partner up to evade the enemy and try to get to the cops, and she then proceeds to convince him that he's not the monster he thinks he might be and that the situation they're facing needs him whether he's a monster or not).

I want to read it already.

FOTSGreg

12-04-2009, 03:10 AM

Neversage, From your words to my inspiration.

:)

James D. Macdonald

12-04-2009, 10:45 PM

Cliff Face

12-05-2009, 06:30 AM

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2009, 04:01 AM

Our Year's Best Fantasy (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/Years_best_9.htm) short story, "Philologos; or, A Murder in Bistrita" is available as a free download (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58336) at Tor.com. You'll need to be a registered user, but registration is free.

Now that the finished story is available on-line, here is the first draft, as it was written, in various parts:

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/2006/12/06/

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/2006/12/09/

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/2006/12/11/

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/2006/12/13/

http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/2006/12/29/

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2009, 04:01 AM

Uncle Jim, have you ever considered putting together a "how-to" book for writers....

I have considered that very thing.

In my copious free time....

Cliff Face

12-06-2009, 04:20 AM

I'd buy it. :)

smsarber

12-06-2009, 10:04 AM

Uncle Jim, I finished Land of Mist and Snow, here in my hospital bed--again. I really enjoyed the read. It was in no way what I'd expected, and a very well-written and intriguing story. Thanks for writing it!

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2009, 10:09 AM

A while back we talked about A Christmas Carol (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=418152).

Here, for your amusement, is Dickens' original manuscript (http://documents.nytimes.com/looking-over-the-shoulder-of-charles-dickens-the-man-who-wrote-of-a-christmas-carol#p=1), complete with scratching out, doodles, word-twiddles, and all those other writerly things.

Albannach

12-06-2009, 10:21 AM

That's amazing. Can you imagine the equivalent for Bleak House?

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-06-2009, 08:01 PM

I loved A Christmas Carol. Mostly the Christmas tree calender decorations that tell you the story, but also the actual book.

Rushie

12-06-2009, 08:42 PM

Here, for your amusement, is Dickens' original manuscript (http://documents.nytimes.com/looking-over-the-shoulder-of-charles-dickens-the-man-who-wrote-of-a-christmas-carol#p=1), complete with scratching out, doodles, word-twiddles, and all those other writerly things.

That's the way I used to write before they invented the computer. True story.

Arkie

12-06-2009, 08:46 PM

Uncle Jim, have you ever considered putting together a "how-to" book for writers, which while not necessarily how-to exactly, would be full of your useful advice. You've already got enough of that advice to fill 3 books, so...

Just a thought.

I am in agreement here. I'm one of these people who buy way too many writing books. I could have saved a lot of money by just ploughing through this thread. As a matter of fact, I would not be surprised if some of the "how to" book writers have not mined this thread for much of their information.

R.G. Alexander

12-06-2009, 08:56 PM

Pyrohawk

12-06-2009, 09:05 PM

Wow yeah....that handwriting hurts the eyes. Also, is it sad that cursive writing bothers me? It is just a dead way of writing. I heard that schools don't even teach it anymore in most places! I actually don't even remember how to write in cursive anymore aside from my name.....there are some letters I don't remember.

Rushie

12-06-2009, 09:58 PM

James D. Macdonald

12-06-2009, 11:12 PM

Whew, his handwriting is about as bad as mine.

Dickins' handwriting is pretty good. It's likely that his submission draft (fair copy) would have been clearer. Herman Melville had notoriously bad handwriting.

Mr Earbrass, in The Unstrung Harp, is handwriting his book.

IIRC, Mark Twain was the first writer to submit a typewritten manuscript.

James D. Macdonald

12-07-2009, 03:08 AM

It's St. Nicholas Day!

Therefore, it's time for another Christmas Challenge. (And I'll be playing right alongside you.)

This year's challenge:

First, take the plot from a folk or faerie tale (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html).

Now, retell it in one of the following settings:

1) During the American Civil War, at the Siege of Vicksburg.
2) During the Summer of Love (1968), only in a small town about 1,000 miles from San Francisco.
3) In your town, today.
4) Aboard the International Space Station.
5) In a biker gang in New York City.

Make sure you sand off all the identifying marks (e.g. if you're doing Cinderella; no shoe, no ball, no midnight, no prince, no stepsisters...).

Write your story in accordance with Edgar Allan Poe's Philosophy of Composition (http://www.eapoe.org/works/essays/philcomp.htm).

Your deadline is Christmas Eve, because (in accordance with long tradition), you will read your story aloud to your family on Christmas Eve. (This does not mean that it must be a Christmas Story. Far from it. See, for example, M. R. James' Ghost Stories of an Antiquary (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8486) for his Christmas read-aloud stories.)

Do any necessary rewrites based on your family's reactions, ready to submit your story on January 2nd to a semi-pro-or-better paying, appropriate market that you find at Duotrope.com (http://www.duotrope.com).

Ready? Writers, hit your keyboards!

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-07-2009, 03:29 AM

It's St. Nicholas Day!

3) In your town, today.
4) Aboard the International Space Station.

But...but...those are the same thing!

James D. Macdonald

12-07-2009, 03:54 AM

But...but...those are the same thing!

Then that setting should be particularly easy for you.

Neversage

12-07-2009, 11:31 PM

It's time to venture forth to massive success, or spectacular failure. Now... which one to choose?

James D. Macdonald

12-08-2009, 12:45 AM

Now... which one to choose?

Choose "fun" and "interesting" and the rest doesn't matter.

James D. Macdonald

12-08-2009, 07:37 AM

Cyia

12-08-2009, 07:39 AM

I would, but I have no local bookstore :( 'tis sad.

Maxinquaye

12-08-2009, 07:41 AM

Okay, everyone. All you folks who have been reading this thread for years. You want to thank me? Here's how:

Go down to your local bookstore. The one with the doors and windows. Walk in, and buy a copy of The Apocalypse Door by, well, me. Pick it up right off the shelf.

Thank you.

Oh snap.

You mean I have to travel to the USA?

I'm not sure you'd let me in - considering the web pages I regularly trawl, researching my novels of course.

You can't make Amazon-exception for us foreign types?

euclid

12-08-2009, 12:43 PM

I woke up this morning to find two *festive* emails awaiting, the first from Jim suggesting we all buy his book, The Apocalypse Door, the second from Amazon.com to say that my order has shipped.

It took them exactly one month! to pick this book (and one other) from the shelves and put them in a packet. They say I won't get it before Christmas. What's wrong with Amazon that it takes them so long to fulfill their orders?

:Shrug:

euclid

12-08-2009, 05:50 PM

I've just now received an email from Amazon.co.uk offering me The Apocalypse Door at 10% off. UKP 8.99 iso UKP 9.99

James D. Macdonald

12-08-2009, 09:46 PM

It took them exactly one month! to pick this book (and one other) from the shelves and put them in a packet.

Given that the release date is today, I'd say that's pretty decent time.

euclid

12-08-2009, 10:38 PM

Given that the release date is today, I'd say that's pretty decent time.

Oh right. Apologies. I forgot it was just coming out.

*slapping my wrist here*

Looking forward to reading it. The second book I ordered is John Scalzi's Old Man's War.

I have Jen Pelland's book. Haven't started it yet.

James D. Macdonald

12-08-2009, 10:46 PM

Scalzi's Old Man's War is excellent. It also has a highly unusual publishing history.

Scalzi posted Old Man's War on his web page, where a professional editor found it and offered on it. Scalzi himself recommends that others not try to follow this path. First, out of the thousands of novels published every year, his was the only one with that history. Second, Scalzi has been a professional writer for decades. It's just that he'd never written a novel before, and he hadn't intended to seek publication for it at all. This was lightning striking, not once but several times, in a peculiar pattern that's not likely to ever be repeated.

Also, he wrote an outstanding book.

jinkang

12-09-2009, 09:50 PM

Scalzi's Old Man's War is excellent. It also has a highly unusual publishing history.

I read the book before but never knew such a history. Perhaps I should do some more 'background checks' on the books I read...

James D. Macdonald

12-09-2009, 10:02 PM

Perhaps I should do some more 'background checks' on the books I read...

Do so only if it adds to your enjoyment.

I come out of the Medieval Literature side of the house, where often enough nothing whatever is known about the author.

smcc360

12-10-2009, 12:12 AM

Okay, everyone. All you folks who have been reading this thread for years. You want to thank me? Here's how:

Go down to your local bookstore. The one with the doors and windows. Walk in, and buy a copy of The Apocalypse Door by, well, me. Pick it up right off the shelf.

Thank you.

I borrowed it from my library, read it, loved it, borrowed it again, re-read it, re-loved it.

Rather than steal the library's copy, I will buy my own today.

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2009, 12:43 AM

Words of advice from Neil Gaiman on how to become a successful writer:

"Never publish anything bad."

Cliff Face

12-10-2009, 05:07 AM

"Never publish anything bad."

Does that include things which are naughty? ;) Cos then I might be in a tight spot with this current WIP.

Meanwhile, isn't it the job of agents/editors to make sure nothing bad gets published? Then again, I've read some pretty horrible books in my time, so maybe not...

BigWords

12-10-2009, 05:13 AM

Never submit anything bad. :D

Cliff Face

12-10-2009, 05:45 AM

Then I've already broken that rule by submitting my first MS without editing it... :/
ETA: I only submitted it to one place, though, so it's not quite so bad.

Never again!

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-10-2009, 07:29 AM

Never write anything bad.

Ignoring the fact that that is impossible, of course.

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2009, 08:38 AM

I write bad things all the time. I just don't send them out until they're good.

If I can't make them good, I don't send them out.

Readers don't forgive bad writing. If the experience of reading your book is bad, they won't read anything else you've written. If it's sufficiently bad, they won't read anything else that looks like your book either.

Here's a report from the bookstore front (http://msagara.livejournal.com/52146.html): Readers won't touch trade paperbacks from legitimate houses that look like they might have been vanity published. What do we mean by "look like"? 6x9 trim size and a glossy cover. That's enough.

What that means is that enough readers have been burned by Aunt Sue's romance she got published through AuthorHouse, or by the PublishAmerica title that a bookstore manager shelved because the author came and begged, that they have antibodies.

That isn't the only place where readers have been burned, or where the readers remember. I could tell you tales of entire genres that have been poisoned by publishers getting greedy and printing books that should never have seen a bookstore rack, just because the public demand for that genre was high. Some of those genres still haven't recovered to their pre-pond-bloom levels, and it's been over ten years.

It's too bad if you are writing in one of those genres, or if your publisher puts a glossy cover on your trade paperback. Your book could cure cancer, feed the hungry, and bring world peace, and the reading public still won't pick it up.

euclid

12-10-2009, 02:52 PM

Here's a report from the bookstore front (http://msagara.livejournal.com/52146.html): Readers won't touch trade paperbacks from legitimate houses that look like they might have been vanity published. What do we mean by "look like"? 6x9 trim size and a glossy cover. That's enough.

Of course, now that the secret is out, self-publishing will immediately start producing matt covered books in other sizes!

Whatever happened to: "Never judge a book by its cover"?

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2009, 03:12 PM

Whatever happened to: "Never judge a book by its cover"?

Readers do it all the time. So do you.

(And, "You can't judge a book by its cover" dates to another time in publishing when the book block and the cover were purchased separately, and the exact same text from the same press could be inside of two very different covers.)

Of course, now that the secret is out, self-publishing will immediately start producing matt covered books in other sizes!

Not any time soon. Not with the current POD machines.

Cliff Face

12-10-2009, 03:39 PM

Okay, Uncle Jim, I finally remembered to look for one of your books while I was late night shopping. What can I say, I'm a scatterbrain when shopping, and always forget to look for new things unless I write them down.

Anyway, I'm in Australia, and my local book store checked in their computers and couldn't find anything by you. Shock horror to the max! The woman at the counter searched for your full name, then just Macdonald, and still didn't turn anything up, let alone adding in the D. initial.

So is it the case that your books have never made it to Australian shores? I was sorely disappointed. I wanted The Apocalypse Door!

Then on my way out of the shopping centre, I realised that maybe she had spelled it Mc instead of Mac and that could be the source of my angst. Anyway, the centre was closing down for the night, so I didn't go back.

Meanwhile, right before I had gone in to ask about your books, I had played a mental conversation in my head, "Check for Mac and Mc, I can't remember how it's spelled." Scatter brain that I am, I forgot this upon entering the shiny shiny store.

So my question is - have you never been published in Australia, and if not do you have intentions of pursuing that course of action?

ETA: Bonus points if the reason you've never been published in Australia involves Kylie Minogue and a koala. :D

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2009, 04:41 PM

So my question is - have you never been published in Australia, and if not do you have intentions of pursuing that course of action?

The Apocalypse Door is published by Macmillan in Australia. When you search at the Macmillan.au site on "Macdonald" it's the very first hit.

http://www.panmacmillan.com.au/list_titles.asp?txtKeywords=macdonald&x=21&y=15

ISBN 978-0765306081

The Australian publication date will be 01/01/2010.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-10-2009, 06:14 PM

The Apocalypse Door, because I'm broke, is on my Christmas list instead. And about the letter...that must be intimidating for aspiring authors. (I say this because I'm one of them)

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2009, 10:12 PM

And about the letter...that must be intimidating for aspiring authors. (I say this because I'm one of them)

Don't worry about it. If you aren't vanity-published it won't affect you.

Calliopenjo

12-11-2009, 01:48 AM

A Christmas Present (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4355649#post4355649)

If anyone would please take a gander and crit my story, I'd appreciate it. I'd appreciate it also if you have any ideas on where to cut 1244 words.

Above is the link.

In the meanwhile, I'll look into getting a copy of Uncle Jim's latest novel. Land of Mist and Snow is good so far.

Has anyone read a story that you once loved before you learned anything about writing? You go back to that same story and reread it, and instead of loving it, you hate it?

I'm asking, because I want to find out if I'm the only one. I'm finding stories that I once loved and enjoyed in the past, absolutely horrible now. I'm finding it hard to get past page five.

So I've gone back to the classics and see how those are. I thought I'd start with HG Wells first.

Crawling back to my corner now.

Cliff Face

12-11-2009, 03:35 AM

Ah, Apocalypse Door released in the New Year... *rubs hands* excellent...

I'll have my Christmas money then, woo.

FOTSGreg

12-11-2009, 05:18 AM

Uncle Jim, I find myself a wee bit confused. What's the difference between DRM (digital rights management)) and an ISBN? Which is more important when considering whether or not to go with, for example, Lulu, Fictionwise, Smashwords, etc., to publish an ebook? Finally, if, as I understand it from Lulu, DRM is a "System or technology used to place limitations (access to or copying of) onto digital content (eBooks, music, etc.). A publisher or author of an eBook, not the retailer, determines the level of restrictions applied to an eBook. This includes how many times an eBook can be downloaded for a single purchase, and the number of devices (computers, eBook readers, etc.) to which the eBook can be transferred.", what would be your recommendations on the number of downloads, devices for transfer, etc. (my initial thought is ONE! and not a single one more without another purchase)?

Thanks in advance.

James D. Macdonald

12-11-2009, 06:19 AM

ISBN is a number used when warehousing, tracking, selling, identifying individual titles by format, edition, and publisher. It allows bookstores to order and sell particular books, and readers to find particular books, without having to write out the entire card-catalog listing each time.

DRM, on the other hand, is a tool of the devil.

The two items are completely unrelated. Which is a good thing.

Albannach

12-11-2009, 09:49 AM

my initial thought is ONE! and not a single one more without another purchase

While I want a reader giving my work away to friends (just as I give away novels I've finished) telling them how much they loved it so they tell a friend and so on and so on.

And some of those people will buy that novel and some will buy my next one. The more people who read my work, the better. I think Jim Baen understood this well. You might check out Baen's Free Library.

Neversage

12-11-2009, 08:52 PM

Has anyone read a story that you once loved before you learned anything about writing? You go back to that same story and reread it, and instead of loving it, you hate it?

Yes. I read a Star Wars EU book called I, Jedi, and loved it the first time. I recently re-read it and found it to be disjointed, shallow, and predictable. Not predictable because I had read it before, but because everything that happened was so expected it made the plot bland.

The same thing happened with writing. I used to labor under the delusion that adjectives made a story rich and deep; you could never have too many. O_O

James D. Macdonald

12-11-2009, 09:53 PM

Part of going back to well-loved books and finding them disappointing might also come from increased maturity in your reading, even without your becoming a writer in the meantime.

The more you read, the more you add to your storehouse of ideas, and what was once fresh will become Seen That A Hundred Times.

(This is another reason why having your plot take a Left Turn at Reality in the midbook is a good idea, and why I recommend braiding a number of threads into Celtic Knotwork.)

James D. Macdonald

12-12-2009, 01:56 AM

A couple of things.

First, on-line promotion.

You'll notice that my sig line right now is a link for my novel, The Apocalypse Door. That's a live link to Amazon.com, which (because of the Amazon Associates program) I can track as to numbers coming in. That sig line isn't the only place I've left that link, either. It's pretty much everywhere I'm active.

Heaven only knows how many impressions there have been (that is, number of people who've seen it). There've been 214 click-throughs. Which have resulted in three sales. Okay, that may well be three sales that I wouldn't have had otherwise, but it still isn't a big return on promotional time and effort.

=================

Second:

Scientist and writer Dr. Peter Watts was assaulted and arrested by US border guards. Details here (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNGhAC63NsH8gIqtOntsFLjIQt6LoQ&cid=1487387233&ei=CrgiS6D7C8fslQeElr_RAw&rt=MORE_COVERAGE&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fio9.com%2F5424502%2Fsf-writer-peter-watts-arrested-beaten-at-us%2Bcanadian-border), here (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_1_0_t&usg=AFQjCNHM1BrZHvSMkYiovmYubTVEdaIuow&cid=1487387233&ei=CrgiS6D7C8fslQeElr_RAw&rt=MORE_COVERAGE&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.locusmag.com%2FNews%2F2009%2F 12%2Fauthor-peter-watts-arrested-at-us.html), here (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_2_0_t&usg=AFQjCNHjIbsw4othR_8h71B9gTvKOByEzQ&cid=1487387233&ei=CrgiS6D7C8fslQeElr_RAw&rt=MORE_COVERAGE&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boingboing.net%2F2009%2F12%2F 11%2Fdr-peter-watts-canad.html), and here (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011966.html). Please donate to his legal defense fund. Also, if you're in the US or Canada, write letters to your elected representatives and to your local newspapers in his support.

See also: Scientist explains why climate scientists talk trash (http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=886). Yes, it's that Dr. Peter Watts.

DeskBoundTeaDrinker

12-12-2009, 02:09 AM

I recently re-read it and found it to be disjointed, shallow, and predictable. Not predictable because I had read it before, but because everything that happened was so expected it made the plot bland.

I find this all the time with mystery/police procedural/crime TV shows. As a mystery/noir/PI fan and writer I've read enough that I can see with very good accuracy 'whodoneit' in the TV scripts, and can often nail the moment that the perp is unintentionally first revealed ("oh, it's so obvious that the Raul Esparza character is the mysterious "woman" killer - DUH!"). This does not come from exceptional knowledge, but from reading a lot, paying attention to a lot of TV and film scripts, and learning to spot the "tells." Of course, it pleases me even more when something twists and turns and I can't predict it with accuracy, but those moments are getting very rare.

FOTSGreg

12-12-2009, 03:25 AM

I'm very familiar with Baen's Free Library and appreciate what they've done with it. I'm also appreciative of the idea of getting my work into as many hands as possible. But with that said, I've worked hard on some of my stuff and deserve, I think, to get paid for it and not have it floating around the interweb as a pirated or free download for every Tom, Dick, and Harriet who happens to want to take a gander at it.

Uncle Jim refers to DRM as "a tool of the devil", but it appears to be designed to enforce copyright and download restrictions. If anyone who wants a copy of my book can shuffle over to Pirate's Bay (or Cove or whatever those hooligans call themselves these days) and download it for free, where're my miniscule PayPal payments going to come from? Shouldn't I just put the thing up on my website and let everyone download the book for free rather than have pirated copies of it floating around (that's likely going to happen anyway, but why make it easier for the pirates)?

Basically, why is DRM a tool of the devil and how does it affect authors and royalties on ebooks?

I'm trying to do my research here and am seeking feedback from actual writers, which are in abundance here at AW, rather than relying on what someone whose bottom line is directly influenced by the use of DRM might say.

BigWords

12-12-2009, 03:40 AM

Many DRM solutions are worthless. The pirates are going to get around it, and it contains within it the possibility that paying users will be inconvenienced. I've tried to shift files from one laptop to the other, only for the original file to be completely screwed up in the process, leaving me no option but to buy another copy.

FOTSGreg

12-12-2009, 03:41 AM

lucidzfl

12-12-2009, 03:42 AM

James D. Macdonald

12-12-2009, 04:00 AM

Piracy isn't the problem for authors. The biggest problem is obscurity.

Most people would rather get legitimate copies, if they're available, and if they're convenient.

DRM invites the crackers. Breaking DRM is trivially easy for them. They are not inconvenienced by it at all.

The people who are inconvenienced are your legitimate readers who, for example, download your work in a form that they can read on their laptop, but won't let them read it on their PDA. Or the people who can't make backups, so that when their hard-drives die (which they all do), or they upgrade their computers (which they all will) forces them to re-buy their entire libraries.

The experience of the Baen Free Library, as well as individuals like Cory Doctorow, is that DRM-free electronic versions increase sales.

So: DRM a) adds cost, b) inconveniences legitimate purchasers, c) tells your fans that you think they're dishonest, and d) doesn't slow down the pirates. I don't see an upside.

FOTSGreg

12-12-2009, 04:10 AM

lucidzfl, Okay, that came across about as completely wrong as I could have put it. I absolutely meant entirely no disrespect to Uncle Jim or to any other writer here. The point I was trying to make was that I'm asking the question here because there are writers here, some of them quite prolific and exceptionally professional, and all of whose opinions I choose to solicit other than someone else's because they might be a lot more closely impacted by DRM (like me, maybe, hopefully, one day in some far off time and galaxy). The others I thought I was trying to cite whose bottom line was directly influenced by the use of DRM were folks like Amazon and other users of DRM, not writers.

Uncle Jim, if I offended you, you have my personal apologies.

FOTSGreg

12-12-2009, 04:12 AM

Uncle Jim, Thanks for the explanation. I have just joined the recruits of the Anti-DRM Army thanks to you.

lucidzfl

12-12-2009, 10:13 AM

Maxinquaye

12-12-2009, 11:03 AM

Hmmm, looking at it closer, DRM does appear to be highly restrictive in its end-user restrictions and I certainly do not agree with Amazon's use of DRM recently. I can see where DRM might have caused harm to authors in that Amazon was able to remotely delete works from the Kindle. I disagree completely with the idea that Amazon should have that kind of control over what I put on my ebook reader (not to mention the fat that if I, as an author, want my friends to have a copy of my work, I should be ble to distribute it s I see fit, not as Amazon does, but that opens another can of worms as Amazon is essentially acting as a publisher in that regard and I can see where a publisher might have problem with an author freely distributing works that they have a vested interest in for little or no profit to them - of course, the author also should have such a vested interest, but let's face it, Grandma wants a copy of my ebook for her ereader (if I had either one) then Grandma is going to get one from me).

But what's to prevent a reader from purchasing an ebook and then producing ten zillion copies of it for anyone they want to? Existing copyright law allows an author and publisher to go after such an individual, but is that enough when the profits from an ebook might be miniscule at best?

The rock bottom reason? If we're talking about books now, it's a padlock on your bookshelf, and only you can take out books from it.

DRM is for LICENSING. Not copyright per se. EMI still has the copyright of its artists, whether the music is DRM-protected or not. DRM does not change the copyright.

But, if we talk about books, with DRM and Licensing it means that the copy of Moby Dick that you have in your bookshelf is - under licensing - not yours to distribute to your friend's kid that want to read it. You then do not actually OWN that book. You're just licensing it.

If you do, you're breaking the licensing contract you entered into when you opened the book for the first time, and you can be hauled in front of a judge and be made to pay damages. It's happened enough in the recording industry.

THat is going to piss off your readers immensely. Since they have no idea about who prints and edits the books, they're going to be mad at the name on the cover. You. In the recording industry, the labels are a recognized force. In the publishing industry, not so much.

DRM is the tool of the devil, and would be the bane of a writing career. DRM is truly hated among users.

James D. Macdonald

12-12-2009, 10:37 PM

Little known but true: When used books and new books are on the same bookshelf, side by side, and the used book is cheaper, people in general still choose to buy the new book.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-12-2009, 10:55 PM

What if the new books have a glossy cover?

James D. Macdonald

12-12-2009, 11:01 PM

Albannach

12-12-2009, 11:30 PM

If the new books are trade paperbacks with glossy covers, I expect that they'll just sit there, and so will the used copy of the same book.

Even when gloss/or/matte doesn't come into the equation, and when the reader is there looking for that specific title (e.g. an Amazon page), with new and used listed on the same page, folks prefer to buy new even if it costs more.

Really? That is truly bizarre. Mind you, it's good for writers. But I have to wonder why. I live near one of the world's best bookstores (Powell's) which puts new and used on the same shelves and I buy used all the time. I look for the used to save money--and feel a bit guilty like I'm taking money away from authors but I buy a LOT of books and you know how it is.

Anyway, I find that amazing. I wonder why. It's not like the words wear out.

James D. Macdonald

12-13-2009, 12:16 AM

I live near one of the world's best bookstores (Powell's) which puts new and used on the same shelves...

And you just know that Powell's isn't in business to lose money.

Other interesting things: If there is more than one copy of the same title side-by-side on the shelf, people are more likely to buy one than if just one copy of that exact same title is there.

AryaT92

12-13-2009, 12:19 AM

Other interesting things: If there more than one copy of the same title side-by-side on the shelf, people are more likely to buy one than if just one copy of that exact same title is there.

Though I can't explain why this makes perfect sense to me.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-13-2009, 12:20 AM

Quick question. Sorry for the stupidity, but I was wondering if The Apocalypse Door is religous? Thanks!

James D. Macdonald

12-13-2009, 12:25 AM

I was wondering if The Apocalypse Door is religous?

Short answer: Yes.

Slightly longer answer: Everything I write is religious.

Longer answer than that: See for yourself. The first chapter, complete (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ad_excerpt.htm).

jinkang

12-13-2009, 01:13 AM

Anyway, I find that amazing. I wonder why. It's not like the words wear out.

I think it's the hoard mentality. I know I have that.

If I'm going to read used books, I use our local library. I love it.

If I'm going to buy one to keep it as a collection, I buy a new one. Actually, I bought couple books recently after I read them at the library.

With used books...well, you never know where it has been... haha. (I'm trying to point out how illogical it is.)

As for DRM...the sheer fact that one doesn't own it makes it evil. You pay for it, but you still don't own it. There's something wrong with that logic.

I recall yesterday's lunch where someone said: "I tried to download that [insert-tv-show-title-here] from their site but they prevented me. Something about location. So I went to torrent it right away. And no commericials! If they are going to prevent me from paying my money to get it, I'll just find another way to get it."

Not a great example, I realize, but this should tell you how effective DRM really is.

With books, as with music, many times the buyer can't transfer the content from one machine to the next. That's restriction on content I bought with my hard-earned cash.

Which is why I think paper publishing won't die any time soon. I still like holding the physical book in my hand.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-13-2009, 01:22 AM

Thanks!

Albannach

12-13-2009, 03:05 AM

well, you never know where it has been... haha

I thought of exactly the same thing as an explanation. And who knows who sneezed on the page? LOL

Rushie

12-13-2009, 03:55 AM

I thought of exactly the same thing as an explanation. And who knows who sneezed on the page? LOL

Yup. Ever find a hair in the pages of a used book? I do not like it. I'm not OCD about it, I'll buy used books if the price of the new is too high. Heck, my favorite book is over 100 years old and I sure bought that one used.

Adagio

12-13-2009, 05:40 AM

The more you read, the more you add to your storehouse of ideas, and what was once fresh will become Seen That A Hundred Times.

(This is another reason why having your plot take a Left Turn at Reality in the midbook is a good idea, and why I recommend braiding a number of threads into Celtic Knotwork.)

How true! I thought about this but never put it in words so well and clear.
Adagio

P.S. I just found out that you wrote a short story -- Philologos -- in which the action takes place in Bistriţa - Romania. Interesting, and intriguing.

half.jaded

12-13-2009, 06:02 AM

I'm working my way through the first thread right now. ^_______^

It's very, very helpful.

Anyway, I have a question (I'm not sure if it's been asked before because like I said, I haven't finished reading the first thread right now.).

How can I tell if my writing is any good?

I know, I know. Give your work out to beta readers. Post it in SYW. I have posted, and I adore the critiques. They help me improve. But when I see comments like, "This is written nicely," or something along the same line, I think they're just being nice because they don't want me to stop writing.

>>" Am I being paranoid here? I think I am. *shuts up before she shoves her foot deeper into her mouth*

MumblingSage

12-13-2009, 06:10 AM

Though I can't explain why this makes perfect sense to me.

If there's only one copy of the book on the shelf, I'd feel guilty taking it. As if I'd scarfed the last cookie.

James D. Macdonald

12-13-2009, 06:39 AM

How can I tell if my writing is any good?

In the larger sense you never do. Have we mentioned "impostor syndrome"?

We have! (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84240&postcount=1950)

It's that wakes-you-up-at-three-in-the-morning fear that any minute now your readers, your editors, the critics, your friends, and your family are going to figure out that you've been faking it all along, you don't know what you're doing, and you'll have to get an honest job.

But follow the link. You'll learn how to tell whether your writing is any good (for some value of "good").

BigWords

12-13-2009, 06:48 AM

I've heard Gordon Brown suffers from it as well - it's not just the preserve of writers.

Hittman

12-13-2009, 09:54 AM

It's that wakes-you-up-at-three-in-the-morning fear that any minute now your readers, your editors, the critics, your friends, and your family are going to figure out that you've been faking it all along, you don't know what you're doing, and you'll have to get an honest job.

This happens with every artist in every art form – music, painting, sculpture, and for some reason it's very common among actors.

The only people it doesn't affect are hacks who know they're hacks and don't care, and people with little or no talent who think they're amazing and the rest of the world is wrong.

FOTSGreg

12-14-2009, 12:37 AM

Hmmm, by the definition(s) at the end of Uncle Jim's link, I'm a no talent hack.

My beta reader liked the story, thought it was a great icky bug, but had lots of editorial changes that needed to be made (he was nice enough to read the whole thing though and, since it was my first book, I did expect major editorial changes would be necessary). Unfortunately, he didn't ask to see more.

However, I think I can live with being a no talent hack.Some Big Names (none here) I've read (and a few others I've started and thought "Ugh!" a few or more pages in) I'd consider no talent hacks and some of them have done quite well by their writing.

:)

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2009, 01:29 AM

Hmmm, by the definition(s) at the end of Uncle Jim's link, I'm a no talent hack.

I didn't say "no-talent hack."

You just might have a harder time telling if you're a good writer. Not that any of us can ever know whether we're a good writer. And all of us, at one time or another, are convinced that we aren't.

FOTSGreg

12-14-2009, 02:01 AM

Uncle Jim, Yeah, that's a self-appellation I'll admit.

One of these days though I'll be a published no talent hack at which point I'll still be looking for advice from people a whole lot more professional than I am (and thanking The Powers That Be for AW and Uncle Jim's advice).

Albannach

12-14-2009, 02:10 AM

I've heard Gordon Brown suffers from it as well - it's not just the preserve of writers.

Well, yeah, BUT...

*clears throat* Let's not go there.

Albannach

12-14-2009, 02:12 AM

In the larger sense you never do. Have we mentioned "impostor syndrome"?

We have! (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84240&postcount=1950)

It's that wakes-you-up-at-three-in-the-morning fear that any minute now your readers, your editors, the critics, your friends, and your family are going to figure out that you've been faking it all along, you don't know what you're doing, and you'll have to get an honest job.

But follow the link. You'll learn how to tell whether your writing is any good (for some value of "good").
There are few things more satisfying and better, in my experience, for staving off the "impostor syndrome" than getting money for your work. That lasts until you realize that it will probably be the last thing you ever sell because tomorrow they'll realize... :rolleyes:

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2009, 04:36 AM

In which I achieve YouTube fame.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoTrLpeDDZU) (Minute 8:15 if you want to skip the fun and exciting parts of the video.)

Rushie

12-14-2009, 04:55 AM

In which I achieve YouTube fame.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoTrLpeDDZU) (Minute 8:15 if you want to skip the fun and exciting parts of the video.)

WOW you remind me so much of my best friend Michael. You're adorable!

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2009, 07:03 AM

Rules for Writing

Because the cats were already waxed and polished to a high gloss, I decided to finish up Uncle Jim Undiluted (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987) to date.

Now, because the criticism has been leveled that this thread contains Too Many Rules, let me see (using that new collection of Everything I've Said Here), exactly what I've claimed are "rules."

Here we go!

I have two basic rules: everything that's said should be true, and everything should be helpful.

The rule in the middle is "don't slow down."

You need to develop characters so that they serve a purpose other than Keeping The Front Cover and Back Cover Apart. Two rules for that: Every character thinks that he's the main character in the story, and Every character thinks that he's the good guy. While you are writing the character (from the main character, to the most minor of minor characters) you're in his head, and those two things are true while you're writing from his point of view (POV).

Okay, before I end today, one more rule of thumb: Unless you're writing War and Peace or the Bible, try to have all your characters on stage and moving by page one hundred.

Here's one: Say one of your characters is the world's greatest political orator. Do not, under penalty of having your book flung across the room by your readers, attempt to reproduce that orator's speeches. Unless you personally are the world's greatest orator, anything you write will fall short of the reader's expectation. (Same rule applies if your character is the world's greatest poet, greatest preacher, greatest writer, greatest anything. Don't try to provide samples.)

Here's another rule: Never practice in public.
(and yeah, Never let a manuscript sleep over).

Recall Mark Twain's rules (http://users.telerama.com/%7Ejoseph/cooper/cooper.html) for romantic fiction, particularly "They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency."

The master rules are "Nine-and-sixty ways" and "Does it work?"

We've been talking about rules? There are no rules. There are only guidelines, some of them stronger than others.

Keeping the rule that only words that reveal character, support the theme, and advance the plot belong in your novel should keep you from the worst excesses.

Remember the master rule: You can do anything at all provided it works.

Okay, here's a rule for you: You are allowed one exclamation point per novel. Use it wisely.

Some rules of thumb:

A chapter is a comfortable length to read at one sitting. If your chapters are ten to fifteen pages, that works for a lot of people. Three-to-four page chapters give a feeling of breakneck pace, which might work for a thriller, or might not.

The question is -- where does the break feel natural to you?

A chapter ending contains a reason for the person who put the book down last night before he went to sleep to pick your book up, rather than watch TV, start another book, or play touch football.

Sub-plots -- as long as the reader isn't confused about where they are in the plot, anything you do is okay. Do not confuse the reader.

Your hooks don't need to be obvious at all. (Being too obvious can give your novel a rather Hardy Boys feeling.) They just have to be there.

Do you think that (generally speaking) the reader would feel somehow cheated if, by the end of the story, the 'bad' from the beginning becomes 'good' too (only that a different kind of good ), and the initial 'good' moves towards 'bad' (from a different perspective than that at the beginning).

Well, golly. You've just described the theme arc in the first three of our Mageworlds (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/mageworl.htm) books . (Buy one! Bettter still, buy a dozen! They make excellent gifts!)

Or, as someone else (my beloved co-author, to be precise) once said: "The conflict of good vs. evil is all very well, but if you want to make your characters squirm, try the conflict of good vs. good."

Is all foreshadowing that subtle?

It certainly can be. The entire atmosphere of your book is an artistic space that you create, where everything points to its end. You are responsible for providing the information to the readers, though it can be in very small ways.

When I make a stew I don't dump in the entire box of salt.

Isn't it possible to be too subtle?

Sure. It's all possible. This is why we call this particular trade an art.

If this were a science we could look up a table that would tell us how much and what kind of foreshadowing to use.

Write ten to fifteen pages per day, and you'll have ten novels per year.

See how easy it is?

On the other hand, The Killer Angels (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS.../madhousemanor (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345348109/ref=nosim/madhousemanor)) uses tons of internal dialog and none of it is italicized.

So ....

Be consistent with yourself, and see how it reads.

This is not a science, measured with stopwatch and micrometer. This is an art, an art where the one rule is "It works."

The over-all rule is that every word in your novel should advance the plot, support the theme, or reveal character.

Remember the master rule: Does it work?

The general rule still holds: If it isn't working, take it out.

And the master rule: If it works, it's right.

We've said before that it's okay to break rules, as long as you do it for a purpose, you know what rule you're breaking, and above all, that it works.

The master rule is Does It Work.

If you really, really need to get a fact across, the rule is you slide it in three times.

Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?
Read the magazine you're submitting to. Get copies of their guidelines, and follow them.

The rule isn't "show, don't tell, regardless," it's "use the best tools to tell the story."

You'll discover when writing novels that the master rule is "What works for you?"

Remember the two rules:

Publishers worth submitting to have books you've seen with your own eyes on the shelves of bookstores.
Useful agents have sold books you've heard of.

As far as spelling out numbers, the rule is "be consistent."

The only rule is: Don't bore your reader.

The real rule is: The prose must be workmanlike or better.

Orwell's rule

Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous. is similar in intent to Rule 2 of COLREGS 1972 (International Rules For Preventing Collision At Sea, aka the Rules of the Road):

Rule 2 Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.That's the General Prudential Rule or the Rule of Good Seamanship: You should follow the rules at all times, unless following the rules would result in a collision; at that time you are required to break the rules.

The rules of writing are all very well and will keep you out of trouble most of the time, but you'll break those rules if you must to avoid the literary equivalent of a collision at sea.

While it isn't as fixed a rule as $28.00 among hardcover novels, the equivalent price among trade paperbacks is $16.00. Customers leave the more expensive books right on the shelf. Even from authors they know and like.

By "dialog is privileged" I mean that normal rules of spelling and grammar do not apply there.

"Preposition" means, literally, placed first: Pre-position. That "rule" about not ending sentences with prepositions comes from the 18th century grammar-masters who hadn't quite figured out that English isn't Latin. Ignore it. It isn't really a rule.

Unless specified otherwise, is the rule of thumb for chapter breaks still new page, center? I've been seeing some variations here and there. I recently saw double space, including chapter break.New page, start the chapter half-way down the page. Center the chapter title or number, doublespace, indent, and type.

The page-one-hundred rule (not so much a rule as a guideline): If you're writing War And Peace, or the Bible, you can introduce major characters later on. There are other special circumstances. Examine your story. If it's better with a major character introduced nearer to the end, then it's better.

The thing about writing rules is this: They aren't rules. They're guidelines. You do have to know where the lines are, but if you need to color outside of them, please do so. The master rule is if it works, it's right. Yes, you can break that rule too, but don't expect anyone but mom to love your story if you do.

My personal rule is, the three most recent/most prestigious sales. All to the same market, to different markets ... that doesn't matter to me. The idea is to show "I'm writing at a professional level; a professional sent me money."

Do not forget the master rule: What works for you is right.

The rule is this: If you see a publisher or an agent advertising through Google, they're either scammers or worthless.

The only real rule is: If It Works, It's Right.

And the master rule is that if it works, it's right.

Edelstein has completely misunderstood this one, but that's okay: many people misunderstand it. This rule doesn't instruct you to send out only first drafts. Once you've written, rewritten, revised, and made your work the best you can ... send it out. After that it's a trap to rewrite it every time it comes back. A waste of time. You've already made the story the best you could or you wouldn't be sending it out, would you? So send it out, and send it out again, until you've hit every reasonable market. Then retire it, as above. The exceptions are: if someone says "I will buy this if you make the following changes," by all means do so. Or, if the story's sat around in your Retired file for a year and you see a way to make it better, you can rewrite it and send it back on its travels. (Or, suddenly an inspiration strikes and the Muse won't let go of your throat until you rewrite the sucker.)

The actual rules:

What works is right.

The reader is king.

A compelling story compellingly told trumps everything.

A story that's submitted may be accepted. A story that's never submitted won't be accepted.

The two rules are: (1) Know where you're standing when you describe a scene, and (2) don't confuse the reader. Of those, the second is the most important.

Remember the rule that when someone tells you that there's a problem at a certain point there's probably a problem, but when they tell you what the problem is, they're probably wrong.

Today I'm going to recco Editorial Anonymous' post on rejection letters (http://editorialanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/04/rules-of-receiving-rejection-letter.html). It has eight rules, but boils down to this: Unless the rejection letter contains specific, constructive, criticism it doesn't mean anything. I'm going to add a bit to that, to say that unless it also contains the word "resubmit" even that specific constructive criticism doesn't mean a heck of a lot.

There are no rules. Only guidelines.

The first, and only, rule is: If it works, it's right. (The next, only a little less-than-a-rule, is: Be interesting.)

The rule is: Don't confuse the reader.

First rule of fiction writing: Be interesting.

English has always split infinitives. But when the Latinate Prescriptive Grammarians came along in the 18th century, to impose the grammatical rules from Latin onto English in order to make English respectable (since Latin was the perfect language) they decided that it was therefore wrong to split infinitives in English.

If you're totally fascinated, double-space after a full stop is sometimes called "English spacing" and single-space after a full stop is sometimes called "French spacing." These long pre-date typewriters. There were also rules about spaces before and after other punctuation marks. As an aside, also dating to the days of hand typesetting, cliches were common phrases cast as single slugs to speed composition.

Rules? In a knife fight? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y87EaadjqM)

There is only one rule: If it works, it's right.

The overriding rule is (all together now!) If it works, it's right.

The rules are: 1) Don't confuse the readers, and 2) Be consistent.

See also Mark Twain on the rules of literary art (http://www.pbs.org/marktwain/learnmore/writings_fenimore.html):

10. [The rules] require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. But the reader of the Deerslayer tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together.
And the rules of narrative are the same. Fiction, non-fiction -- the difference is in where the lies are coming from.

The rule for any working writer is this: The advance is the only money you're ever going to see.

Rules? In a novel?

First, Florence King, on porno guidelines (http://books.google.com/books?id=0bf97kCBSUAC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=%22Florence+King%22+oleaginous&source=bl&ots=meZW4W9HTp&sig=PpoK-hOdNRqyMhenWk7JsTnzIwU&hl=en&ei=ATd4SsC_FcyltgepleWWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=&f=false).

Mark Twain's Rules of Writing:

There are nineteen rules governing literary art in domain of romantic fiction -- some say twenty-two. In "Deerslayer," Cooper violated eighteen of them. These eighteen require:

1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere. But the "Deerslayer" tale accomplishes nothing and arrives in air.

2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it. But as the "Deerslayer" tale is not a tale, and accomplishes nothing and arrives nowhere, the episodes have no rightful place in the work, since there was nothing for them to develop.

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. But this detail has often been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there. But this detail also has been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

5. The require that when the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject at hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say. But this requirement has been ignored from the beginning of the "Deerslayer" tale to the end of it.

6. They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description. But this law gets little or no attention in the "Deerslayer" tale, as Natty Bumppo's case will amply prove.

7. They require that when a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven- dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a negro minstrel in the end of it. But this rule is flung down and danced upon in the "Deerslayer" tale.

8. They require that crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader as "the craft of the woodsman, the delicate art of the forest," by either the author or the people in the tale. But this rule is persistently violated in the "Deerslayer" tale.

9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable. But these rules are not respected in the "Deerslayer" tale.

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. But the reader of the "Deerslayer" tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together.

11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency. But in the "Deerslayer" tale, this rule is vacated.

In addition to these large rules, there are some little ones. These require that the author shall:

12. Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.

13. Use the right word, not its second cousin.

14. Eschew surplusage.

15. Not omit necessary details.

16. Avoid slovenliness of form.

17. Use good grammar.

18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.

Even these seven are coldly and persistently violated in the "Deerslayer" tale.
Elmore Leonard's 10 rule of writing (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/16/arts/writers-writing-easy-adverbs-exclamation-points-especially-hooptedoodle.html)

1. Leave out the passages that readers love to skip. (Those would be the ones you worked hardest on).

2. Never open a book by describing the weather.

3. Never open a book with a prologue. They are usually boring.

4. Never describe the physical appearance of a character with details that the reader will soon forget.

5. Use exclamation points sparingly.

6. Never use another verb instead of "said."

7. Never use an adverb to modify "said." The tone of the dialogue should be contained within the dialogue itself.

8. Never use a colon or semi-colon in dialogue.

9. Don't change your writing for the critics who know nothing about writing.

10. Tell the editor not to let the copy-editor mess with your punctuation.

Gene Wolfe's rules for writers

Examine your modifiers ruthlessly. What do they add to the story? Cut adjectives, adverbs, similes and metaphors which do not shed light or develop the narrative voice.

Don't repeat yourself.

Give the reader small surprises: moments of humor, delightful metaphors, something that jolts.

Understand your characters. No one is a villain to him/herself. No one is clinically sane if you know them well enough.

Jennifer Crusie's Rules for Romance Heroines (http://www.jennycrusie.com/more-stuff/romance-heroine-don%E2%80%99ts-list/)

George Orwell's rules of writing:

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.
(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.
(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

They come from "Politics and the English Language (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm)." Rules for Writing (http://mumpsimus.blogspot.com/2006/11/rules-for-writing.html)

George Scithers' rules for writers:

1.You have to put it in a form someone can use.

2. You have to make it interesting enough to be worth the editor’s time and the reader’s money.

3. You have to put it where someone can read it and buy it.

That really does cover it. The best writing advice tends to be very simple. It’s using it that’s the trick.

Next, Robert Heinlein's Rules for Writing (http://www.gazetteofthearts.com/writer3.htm). (Astoundingly enough, from an address he gave at the US Naval Academy.)

Robert A. Heinlein's Rules of Writing:

1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order.
4. You must put the work on the market.
5. You must keep the work on the market until it is sold.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-14-2009, 07:37 AM

3. Never open a book with a prologue. They are usually boring.
WHAT? That's ridiculous. Like, I mean, I see in some cases, and a lot of those rules are interesting and beyond my wisdom, but...no prologue? That's...just...

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2009, 07:44 AM

That isn't my rule, it's Elmore Leonard's.

But it's also true that many (most?) readers skip prologues.

Okay, now you're going to say, "But I never skip prologues!"

That's great. Just be aware that most readers do skip them. Write your book accordingly.

James D. Macdonald

12-14-2009, 07:43 PM

On prologues: I've done 'em myself, and I have no doubt I'll do 'em again.

On trade paperbacks: They cost the publisher about 60% of the price of a hardcover to produce, but they only sell for 50% of the price of a hardcover. That is to say, they have the lowest profit margin of any format. If readers have become inoculated against 6x9 trade paperbacks, we may see the end of that format from legitimate publishers.

Philky

12-14-2009, 10:34 PM

Short answer: Yes.

Slightly longer answer: Everything I write is religious.

Longer answer than that: See for yourself. The first chapter, complete (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ad_excerpt.htm).

Question for you, Uncle Jim. You say everything you write is religious. Do you aim for the Christian book market, or do you aim for the sci-fi arena? Briefly looking at your novel, it seems you may delve into both.

The reason I ask is that my current WIP is of the religious/Christian nature, but the path I take it could qualify it as sci-fi. How should I pitch this book when sending query letters and looking for agents?

James D. Macdonald

12-15-2009, 01:31 AM

The Christian book market is small. I sell my material as straight SF/Fantasy. And if it works on more than one level ... well, the first three Mageworlds books are a refutation of the Manichean heresy.

FOTSGreg

12-15-2009, 03:10 AM

Uncle Jim, I would like your response to the following quote from Alexander Erin's blog site regarding traditional publishing,

I am Alexandra Erin, and I’m an author. A professional one… my work as an author is my sole source of income. Unlike most professional authors, though, I work almost exclusively in the area of self-published cyberfunded ongoing literature.

Some people would hold that this means I am not a “real” author, or at least not a published or professional one. They may have a point, as professional published authors don’t make a living from their writing.

I do.

I find this tremendously insulting as a writer and as a professional individual in any field. To find someone who is in any sense so disparaging of the professional market and the professional authors who actually make money in this endeavor seems terribly insulting to me.

Are you familiar with this so-called author and how much she might actually make as a "professional", not to mention why she might have so much animosity towards professional publications and publishers as she initially appears to?

Is she really making money as the author of the website and if so what is the secret of her success?

Thanks in advance.

Albannach

12-15-2009, 03:12 AM

I love Twain's rules. He gave the best writing rules and his hatred for Deerslayer makes me chuckle. It's hard to know which rule is best.

But on Elmore's rules, good all in all, but the exclamation mark thing bothers me. Is it really wrong to use them if the person really is yelling? (Yes, my characters yell a lot in the middle of battles and what-not)

Exclamation marks seem right--but I (as Mr. Twain would say) eschew them.

Hittman

12-15-2009, 03:15 AM

1. Leave out the passages that readers love to skip. (Those would be the ones you worked hardest on).

This is my very favorite writing advice, ever. I originally heard it phrased as an answer to the question "Why are your books so popular." He answered, "I leave out the parts that people skip."

Note he said "leave out," which implies they were in there at some point. If you want to describe each character from head to foot, starting with their hair and ending with their shoes, go for it. So what if that sucks? You're going to chop all that out in the second draft anyway.

James D. Macdonald

12-15-2009, 03:28 AM

Is she really making money as the author of the website and if so what is the secret of her success?

Is she? It's possible. Why not?

You could ask her what the secret of her success is; she might tell you that she writes niche fiction for a defined audience. That would be my guess.

As to: They may have a point, as professional published authors don’t make a living from their writing.

I do.

By that definition I'm not a professional published author either.

Another part of her strategy might be living in an area with a very low cost of living. That's the route I took myself.

Aidan Watson-Morris

12-15-2009, 04:38 AM

On prologues: I've done 'em myself, and I have no doubt I'll do 'em again.

Okay. I see the whole readers skip them sometimes, but...the best books I've read have always had a prologue. (Except maybe Watership Down...did that have a prologue?)

allenparker

12-15-2009, 11:57 PM

Okay. I see the whole readers skip them sometimes, but...the best books I've read have always had a prologue. (Except maybe Watership Down...did that have a prologue?)

I just sold a short with a Prologue and an Epilogue. It worked well for both. If the reader doesn't read the prologue, they can figure out what is going on, but the real secrets are buried in the prologue. It is like and Easter egg hunt.

Neversage

12-16-2009, 12:07 AM

In which I achieve YouTube fame.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoTrLpeDDZU) (Minute 8:15 if you want to skip the fun and exciting parts of the video.)

Uncle Jim, you are so much less authoritative than I imagine you. There's a warmth about your manner that I find very reassuring. Must be the black jacket in your picture.

Thank you for posting that.

My only claim to fame so far is MacGregor's Beard.

James D. Macdonald

12-16-2009, 09:34 PM

Cyia

12-16-2009, 09:46 PM

Making the Author's Big Mistake (http://www.amazon.com/review/R1BA0D6J2GS59/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?ie=UTF8&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest) (ABM).

Folks, do not ever, ever, ever respond in any way whatsoever to a bad review. Just don't do it.

Wow. :crazy:

Read through as many of the replies as I could stomach (it's interesting that so many of the author's - and only the author's - were minimized as "not helpful to the discussion".) Some people really can't handle criticism. At all.

Looks like this lady (?) never got the "You are not your work" lessons and still has a massive case of GWS.

One question -- Is she saying she lost a contract over the sales of that book? Or is she blaming the reviewers' "amateur" opinions for endangering her future contract possibilities.

(Never mind that there are way more amateurs than pros who buy a given author's books...)

Cyia

12-16-2009, 09:50 PM

Uncle Jim, you are so much less authoritative than I imagine you. There's a warmth about your manner that I find very reassuring. Must be the black jacket in your picture.

Somehow, I'd pictured him with a "northern" accent until I heard that. ;)

(Now I really want to read that book, btw. I love that it sounds like your "Templar" is doing what they were supposed to - guarding the pilgrims on their way - rather than just being dark, mysterious, and evil.)

Cyia

12-17-2009, 07:31 AM

Making the Author's Big Mistake (http://www.amazon.com/review/R1BA0D6J2GS59/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg1?ie=UTF8&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest) (ABM).

Folks, do not ever, ever, ever respond in any way whatsoever to a bad review. Just don't do it.

Looks like she was a drive-by poster here at the first of the year. Her one and only post is to denounce her treatment by her publisher and editor.

Hi all,

I can relay my experiences so far with this company.

[...]

Candace Sams (aka C.S. Chatterly)
www.candacesams.com (http://www.candacesams.com/)
www.cschatterly.com (http://www.cschatterly.com/)

James D. Macdonald

12-17-2009, 07:51 AM

O well.

Don't do likewise.

IceCreamEmpress

12-17-2009, 08:36 AM

Are you familiar with this so-called author and how much she might actually make as a "professional", not to mention why she might have so much animosity towards professional publications and publishers as she initially appears to?

I know Alexandra from other Web contexts--we've never met in person--and part of her Internet persona is to be ultra-contrarian and confrontational.

She definitely does make the bulk of her income, if not all of it, from selling subscriptions to her writing. She also lives quite frugally in an area of the US where the cost of living is very low and has no spouse or kids or other dependents, so I think that helps in the "not having to have a day job" thing. She's actually quite a thoughtful and generous person and a supportive friend to many people we know in common--I think the crabby stance may be a public shtick.

I think it's great that what she's doing is working for her. I don't see how cutting other people down is helpful or useful or true or kind, but it does get attention so that may be why she does it.

allenparker

12-17-2009, 07:27 PM

I think it's great that what she's doing is working for her. I don't see how cutting other people down is helpful or useful or true or kind, but it does get attention so that may be why she does it.

All of us play some character at some point in our lives. Don Rickles used a similar type of character, but people knew he was being funny. It was used to enliven people, to offer life more abundantly.

Given the choice, I prefer Don's method.

lucidzfl

12-17-2009, 08:13 PM

So, I know Uncle Jim is the man here, but a few months ago I posted in this thread about monitoring my words per minute writing rate, and that I was going to experiment with different methods.

Is it better to plan first or start cold turkey. Is it easier to have outlined the entire story, or take it one chapter or one section at a time.

Well I'm sure the result will be no surprise to Uncle Jim. The answer is "write."

To expound, I have kept a log every day of all the writing I did, and the method I used before the session. I attempted one method for an entire week and then alternated. In the end, no amount of planning, preproduction, or blatant creative force increased my wpm. Over time, my ability to sit down, form the words in my head and translate them to paper (digitally of course) has improved. Like a muscle, simply writing made me able to do it better and faster.

Results are I went from 40wpm to 57wpm in 2 months.

euclid

12-17-2009, 09:18 PM

Hi Jim,

I agree with Neversage. You come across on that video as a really friendly soul and a thoroughly good egg.

:D

That place where you live looks like the Land of Ice and Snow.
Stay warm.

FOTSGreg

12-18-2009, 04:39 AM

IceCreamEmpress, thanks for the information. It's useful to know.