Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

[Elizablue]

Elizablue: I think you probably need help. Like a second person to collaborate with you to extract the great novel that's buried in there.

Just a thought.

Thank you Euclid. I would agree. The story is 80% completed but missing connecting chapters. The other one only maybe 40% but it is so different like night and day than the first.

I'm thinking maybe I should get some formal training.

[Elizablue]

Elizablue, the man entering with a gun and the naked woman in the next room screaming are the answers for you. They're metaphorical answers, but they're answers nonetheless. Essentially, throw an extra conflict into the story and let it work itself out.

Also, if you're losing the magic, then you're on the right track. Every writer hits a difficult part in the middle (although it's worse for some than others) when the story seems to be losing its way.

To help combat this (aside from the man with the gun), jot a few notes about your characters: What do they want at this point in the story? What's preventing them from getting it? What resources are available to them? What are they not willing to do in pursuit of their goal?

Answering these questions should give you an idea what the protagonists (and antagonists, and supporting characters) want to do in the future.

Good luck.

HConn, thank you so much. I am going to do just that. Character development on paper would force me to get back inside the character's head.

[euclid]

Remember in Uncle Jim thread 1? Jim mentioned how studying chess openings teaches one openings, but studying the end game teaches one chess. So it follows.

Never understood any of that. Probably never will. :Shrug:

[Blue Sky]

Never understood any of that. Probably never will. :Shrug:

Some people didn't, some did. Now it doesn't matter. We can just do it. I'm sure Jim will explain as he always does. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Acquiring editors, their origin and necessity:

"The weeder is supremely needed if the Garden of the Muses is to persist as a garden." --Ezra Pound

[James D. Macdonald]

I've picked up an Elmore Leonard novel, $wag (formerly titled Ryan's Rules). Random selection off the shelf at B&N in Manchester, NH.

Two weeks from today, I'll discuss the last chapter.

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS.

Everyone, get a copy and get reading.

[euclid]

What's the position with Amazon today, Jim? Are they selling Macmillan books again? I realise you've not changed your stance, but have Amazon?

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes, Amazon is selling Macmillan books.

(I neither know nor care if they're selling Macmillan ebooks for the Kindle.)

No, I am never again going to link to them or buy from them. Because what they did once (or, actually, three times--once with POD presses in general, and once with Hachette Livre before they tried the same stunt with Macmillan--not to mention the time they "accidentally" removed all GLBT books from their search results) they could do again.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Speaking again on the subject of fanfic, if any of you love it, you'd better write your congressman/MP. The latest "Copyright Law" being advanced in Europe, Britain, Canada, the US and Australia (among others) will basically end fanfic as we know it. Up to now, large companies have tolerated it, but the new version puts the liability on ISPs, if someone hosts "copyright violations" on their servers. Work in question will be deleted, and the user who posted it will be banned from the ISP; his family will be banned and his yardboy will probably be banned. ISPs will have no discretion, the user can only go to court (paying thousands) to contest what's happened and the burden will be solely on the user to show that he/she hasn't violated a copyright. Courts, these days, typically take years to get to such suits.

I got this from another forum, and I was wondering if you know anything about this. Curious really.

[euclid]

Jim:
Couldn't find that Elmore Leonard book in the library in the whole county.
I knew it was a long shot.

Calio: What exactly is fanfic?
Do you have any examples?

[Calliopenjo]

Calio: What exactly is fanfic?
Do you have any examples?

Hi Euclid,

Fanfic is short for fan fiction. Fan fiction encompasses movies, cartoons, TV series, etc. The Lord of the Rings (http://www.lotrfanfiction.com/) has a fan fiction site for example. Twilight (http://www.twilighted.net/)does as well. Law & Order: SVU (http://svufiction.com/) has fan fiction.

Fan fiction are stories that's written continuing or adding to the tales originally created by their creator. It might not be the same for all, but Classic describes a story with the original characters and setting, the only thing being different are the circumstances. By original characters, it means their entire being, looks, soul, attitude, everything that the audience is familiar with that character exists in that story as well.

Uber describes a story that takes the original characters soul and attitude, but putting them in another time, setting, body, and circumstances.

Original means just that. The author uses past stories as inspiration, creating a story all their own. The characters, setting, and circumstances will be different all around.

[MumblingSage]

Hi Uncle Jim,



I got this from another forum, and I was wondering if you know anything about this. Curious really.



My first question is, how do they define "Copyright violations"?

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,



I got this from another forum, and I was wondering if you know anything about this. Curious really.



First, it's totally off-topic for this thread.

Second, it sounds like one more example of the typical Internet-bullshit rumors that come around every six months.

So that's enough about that.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim:
Couldn't find that Elmore Leonard book in the library in the whole county.


According to http://www.borrowbooks.ie/ the Clare County Library has one copy under the title Swag.

The Cork County library catalog is down.

The Donegal library doesn't have a copy.

The Dublin City Council library has one copy under its original title of Ryan's Rules.

The Fingal Library has one copy under its current title, Swag.

The Galway library doesn't have a copy.

The Kildare County library has one copy under the title Swag.

And that's as far as I checked.

[euclid]

Yes, Jim, but if I order one of those copies I should have it by August.

[euclid]

I took your advice, upthread, Jim. You said write a 5,000 - 10,000 word outline etc. and built a book from that.

I wrote a 50,000 word "outline" that is now a fantastic 84,000 word detective thriller. It took close to 6 months, mind.

Thanks for the advice. You're a star! :D

[James D. Macdonald]

I wrote a 50,000 word "outline" that is now a fantastic 84,000 word detective thriller. It took close to 6 months, mind.



That's about the same ratio of outline-to-novel that I have.

It's time to send that book on its travels and start your next.

(And, while this is going on, read the best detective thrillers that are available to you, the classics and the most recent. And work on your craft. And yet still take long walks observing the world.)

[euclid]

That's about the same ratio of outline-to-novel that I have.

It's time to send that book on its travels and start your next.

(And, while this is going on, read the best detective thrillers that are available to you, the classics and the most recent. And work on your craft. And yet still take long walks observing the world.)

Very close to sending it out (to beta readers and then to agencies). Just one more tweaking edit, I think.

I am reading a lot at the moment.

Mon-Fri I write from 9 to 5, I watch TV until 10, then I read for 2-2.5 hours. I read about a page a minute.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim. I had to ask.

[third person]

Very close to sending it out (to beta readers and then to agencies). Just one more tweaking edit, I think.

I am reading a lot at the moment.

Mon-Fri I write from 9 to 5, I watch TV until 10, then I read for 2-2.5 hours. I read about a page a minute.

Someone's about to be told to nix the telly altogether. I'd put money on it :)

[euclid]

I'm reading "Alone in Berlin" by Hans Fallada. It's a strange and amazing book, written in German in 1947, and now republished (in English) by Penguin Classics, 2009.

I don't know whether this is a German thing or not (I think it is) but he flip flops between the present and the past tense all the time. Sometimes this happens from one paragraph to the next, sometimes he sets up a scene using the past tense and then switches to the present for the scene's conclusion; other times he does it the other way around: present tense for the first half of a chapter, then past tense. It's weird.

I think this sort of switching tenses is frowned on by editors nowadays. Am I right?

[euclid]

Someone's about to be told to nix the telly altogether. I'd put money on it :)

Probably right, but don't bet any money on my doing that!

[James D. Macdonald]

I think this sort of switching tenses is frowned on by editors nowadays. Am I right?

Only if you do it badly.

(It's incredibly easy to do badly.)

[Cliff Face]

UJ, I just received The Apocalypse Door after having it on order about 9 weeks. Just thought I'd mention that. There's still another book that has 2 chapters left for me to read before I get around to yours, but I'll get there. I'm sure it'll be an eye-opener. I feel vaguely nervous about to read a book by Uncle Jim... you sure have a reputation, and I'm going to be shaking while reading it.

Hopefully I'll learn a few things.

Did you know it cost $29 in Australia? For PB? Aussie book prices are usually pretty high, but this is at the higher end of that.

Does the author have any say in the prices of their books?

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Someone's about to be told to nix the telly altogether. I'd put money on it :)
If anyone tells you "nix the telly" or indeed any other free-time enjoyment after you tell them you write from 9 to 5, you can and should bite their head right off. Full-time writers, just like full-time programmers or full-time shit-sweepers or full-item anythingelsers, surely get to have their evenings off, no?

[lucidzfl]

Yeah i watch at least an hour of TV a night. I also only write for one hour a day.

It takes me thirty days to complete a manuscript. I think my schedule is fine.

[ishtar'sgate]

Yeah i watch at least an hour of TV a night. I also only write for one hour a day.

It takes me thirty days to complete a manuscript. I think my schedule is fine.
Thirty hours to complete a manuscript! Wow. I envy you. It takes me considerably longer than that.:cry:

[James D. Macdonald]

Does the author have any say in the prices of their books?

None whatever.

[allenparker]

None whatever.

Nor should they. The author's job is to write a book that a good publisher will kill to get his hands on.

Publishers are more experienced at pricing and the author would only be in the way. That said, a bad publisher, even with your help, is not going to go anywhere.

[James D. Macdonald]

I should say, generally none whatever. Big Steve King gets input into the cover prices of his books. Famously, on one occasion he insisted that the price of the hardcover be lowered by one dollar. The publisher wept, seeing a million dollars fly out the window, but did it anyway because they saw twenty-three million (minus booksellers' discounts) walking in the door at the same time.

If you routinely sell a million copies of your books, you get a bit more control. I'll tell you what it's like when I get there.

[James D. Macdonald]

Today brought the galleys for Lincoln's Sword (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0060819278).

The cover letter reads:


Dear Debra and James,

Enclosed is your set of first pass pages for Lincoln's Sword.

Please make any necessary changes in the margins. Be sure that you use a bright-colored
pencil and that all changes are legible. Be assured that a professional proofreader
has been assigned to this project, so do not be alarmed if you find typographical
or design errors. Please note that we use the conventions of the Chicago Manual
of Style, 15th ed., and the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed.,
in matters of grammar, style, and spelling.

Your changes should be restricted to errors of fact, misspellings, and/or typographical
errors. Editing in proof is expensive and can result in charges billed to your
royalty account and cause scheduling delays.

Please return only those pages containing corrections to your editor by Thursday,
March 25, so that we can maintain our schedule and bound-book date.

Thank you.

AVON BOOKS

Managing Editorial Department This was mostly a form letter, as you can probably tell.

But it emphasizes what I told you way back when this thread started: You need a copy of Chicago Manual of Style (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0226104036), and Merriam-Webster's (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0877798087). Go get them, if you don't already have them.

A proposito: yesterday brought the cover flats with sales information on the back. I think I'll put them on my web page. I'll tell you when it's up.

[Calliopenjo]

That letter says:

Your changes should be restricted to errors of fact, misspellings, and/or typographical errors.

What falls under typographical errors?

Dan instead of And?
or
And(italicized) instead of And (not italicized)?

[James D. Macdonald]

Typographical errors include such things as letters upside down, lines not properly aligned, a different font substituted in for some portion of the book, a duplicated page, a page left blank, and similar things.

Meanwhile:

I've put the information that's on the back of the cover flats at the bottom of the Lincoln's Sword page (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/lincolns_sword.htm).

The cover flats are what the sales people will be taking to bookstores and libraries. It's the cover on one side, and sales information on the other.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Do you have a separate web page for each of your books or only for specific ones and how do you choose if so?

[James D. Macdonald]

I have a separate page for each novel, and for each anthology that has one of our stories.

Please note that for a book with an August release, the sales force is going out now.

I expect that uncorrected proofs are going out to reviewers about now.

[Blue Sky]

The other day I noticed five copies of the Apocalypse Door face out in Barnes and Noble. Much better visibility.

Today I read that Elmore Leonard, the author of our assigned book Swag, will be at the Tucson Book Festival March 13 at 10:00 a.m. and March 14 at 2:30 p.m. The book festival will have 400 or so authors present across genres. It will be on the University of Arizona campus in Tucson, in case anybody's in the area.

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/arizonaliving/articles/2010/03/06/20100306makeplans0306.html

[Cliff Face]

It doesn't surprise me that Mr. King gets to choose his cover prices. It does surprise me somewhat that you never get a say in such matters unless you're selling millions. Maybe it's just that I have a history in mathematics, and can do the sums myself to see what a good price is, adjusting for taste such as what you think is reasonable in all regards (ie. reasonable price for the consumer to pay, reasonable moneys for the book seller and publisher to get, reasonable prices for you to get in royalties...).

There's usually a static "perfect" price, and it always makes me think long and hard when a book doesn't fall into that range. Sometimes the price is high due to colour photos inside, sometimes the price plummets because they know they'll sell a lot of them, sometimes the price is high because they don't expect to sell to too many people, but that there exists a standard group of people who won't be able to live without this book...

I find it all very interesting.

[Terie]

It doesn't surprise me that Mr. King gets to choose his cover prices. It does surprise me somewhat that you never get a say in such matters unless you're selling millions. Maybe it's just that I have a history in mathematics, and can do the sums myself to see what a good price is, adjusting for taste such as what you think is reasonable in all regards (ie. reasonable price for the consumer to pay, reasonable moneys for the book seller and publisher to get, reasonable prices for you to get in royalties...).

There's usually a static "perfect" price, and it always makes me think long and hard when a book doesn't fall into that range. Sometimes the price is high due to colour photos inside, sometimes the price plummets because they know they'll sell a lot of them, sometimes the price is high because they don't expect to sell to too many people, but that there exists a standard group of people who won't be able to live without this book...

I find it all very interesting.

But we're really 'vendors' or 'suppliers' of raw materials. Suppliers don't get to set the final price of goods; the producer does. Suppliers only set the price of what they're selling, which is what we do when we negotiate contracts with publishers (producers).

[James D. Macdonald]

There's a point where you won't sell any more copies by lowering the price, so every nickel lower the price goes is just a nickel you'll never see with nothing to show for it. And there's a point where raising the price won't bring in any more money because the customers you lose will offset the extra that those who do purchase bring in.

Publishers have perfect knowledge of a) how many copies my last book sold, b) how many copies books like my book sold, and c) how many copies of books in general they're able to sell. They're in a position to tweak the prices up and down looking for that sweet spot where they're bringing in the most cash. Me, all I know is how many copies my book sold, and I know that months to years down the road.

This is ignoring the fixed costs of acquisition and production, printing and distribution, overhead like office rent and telephones, and the variable costs of promotion and marketing. (Though over in promotion and marketing, there's a point where spending more money won't bring in enough extra sales to justify the expense, too.)

[Cliff Face]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured - but my point was, if I, the writer, can tell that the publisher is setting their sale price too high or too low, shouldn't I be able to do something about that?

But I do understand that it's not my place to make these judgement calls.

Just saying that sometimes the publisher makes a mistake on the price. What the book store changes the price to, to keep their own earnings, is completely off the table - you can't talk to every book store - but I would've thought the author could have a word in the ear of the publisher...

Meh, topic closed on my end. I have nothing more to say, and I guess in the long run it doesn't change much - the publisher would never be too far wrong, I suppose.

[James D. Macdonald]

We presume that the publisher is trying to maximize its income through book sales.

You can figure out what the sweet spot is, just by looking at a bunch of cover prices. Paperback originals, between $6.99 and $7.99. Trade paperbacks, $14.99-$16.99. Case-bound, $24.95-$29.95.

[euclid]

You can figure out what the sweet spot is, just by looking at a bunch of cover prices. Paperback originals, between $6.99 and $7.99. Trade paperbacks, $14.99-$16.99. Case-bound, $24.95-$29.95.

Jim,
Could you explain what these terms mean?
I assume Case-bound is what I would call "hard-back".
What's a "paperback original"?
And what's a "trade paperback"?
What's the difference (apart from the price)?

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim,
Could you explain what these terms mean?
I assume Case-bound is what I would call "hard-back".

Yes, case-bound is the real name for "hard back." They are meant for bookstore (that is, "trade," as in "book trade") distribution and are whole-copy returnable.

What's a "paperback original"?

A paperback original is a book printed and distributed in soft cover that had not previously had a hard cover release. Often a paperback original is a mass market release (intended for non-bookstore outlets, and stripped rather than returned).

And what's a "trade paperback"?

A trade paperback is a soft cover book intended for bookstore distribution. It is whole-copy returnable. They are often, but not always, a larger trim size than mass market paperbacks, in order to fit on shelves designed for case-bound books, and because (at least in the early days) they were a way to dispose of extra book blocks that had originally been intended to be bound in hard covers, but instead were being released at a lower price with a cheaper cover.

What's the difference (apart from the price)?

Hard v. soft cover, publication history, and whole-copy returns v. stripping.

Of the lot, trade paperback has the smallest profit margin, since it has about 60% of the production costs of a hard cover, but can only be sold for about 50% of the price of a hard cover.

[euclid]

By non-bookstore outlets, you mean what? supermarkets?
Presumably these original paperbacks are also sold in bookstores?

[James D. Macdonald]

By non-bookstore outlets, you mean what? supermarkets?
Presumably these original paperbacks are also sold in bookstores?

Yes. I mean supermarkets, drug stores, the wire-rack spinner at the bus station, those kinds of places.

Yes, you can find many mass market paperbacks in bookstores (where they are stripped, not returned), but also in bookstores you can find rack-sized trade paperbacks (visually identical to mass market, same trim size and everything) which are whole-copy returnable.

You won't find the rack-sized trade pbs in bus stations, though, since the IDs (Independent Distributors) aren't set up to handle returns at all.

Remember that mass market paperbacks are piggybacking on the newspaper-and-magazine distribution system. No one wants last week's TV Guide or yesterday's newspaper. So, to prove that the issue didn't sell, the distributor takes the issue off the stand, rips off the flag or the cover, and returns that for credit, and drops off the current day's or week's offering.

Think of a mass-market paperback as a single-issue oddly-formatted magazine.

[MumblingSage]

Hmm...I'm beginning to think a lot the books I've viewed as mass-market paperbacks were really just trades in mass-market size. I can always learn something new in this thread.

[James D. Macdonald]

There exists at least one line of books (e.g. Five Star Publishing) that only exists to serve the library market with genre works. These books aren't generally distributed through bookstores.

They're hardcovers, and libraries sign up for a subscription: Five romances, two mysteries, and one SF novel per month, for example. A year later they're sold at library book sales to make room for more. Libraries, too, know about luring in repeat customers with constantly changing stock.

-------------

Elsewhere I've mentioned that you shouldn't associate bad habits with writing, else when you try to break that habit (like give up smoking, or stop drinking alcohol, or whatever you used to do any time you sat down at the keyboard), you'll give up writing too.

There are other destructive things that writers do to themselves. Like watch anyone's career but their own.

You can burn yourself up inside by tracking other authors' sales and advances. Particularly if that other author isn't as good as you are, but sells far better and gets tons more money. So? What can you do about that other than wear up your stomach lining? Nothing. It isn't under your control. Let it go.

Same thing for making plans to win certain awards. Because what'll happen if you don't? Disappointment? Despair? So some other clown got the Pulitzer. Or the Nation Book Award. Or the Howie. Or the Rita. Or got picked by Writers of the Future. Awards are nice when they happen, but they aren't under your control. Let it go.

Or, are you planning to be #1 on the NYT best-seller list? Do you pick up every issue of USA Today to see if your book is on their list? Not under your control. Let it go.

There are two, and only two, things under your control: How well you write, and where you submit your works. Both have the same answer: The Best. Write your best, always, and submit your best to the best markets.

The rest? Not under your control.

[euclid]

A friend directed me to this 2005 article by Stephen King

http://www.greatwriting.co.uk/content/view/312/74/

I expect you know this article. Forgive me if I'm revisiting old ground.

In it, he says (point no. 11) not to look for an agent early on, but to approach
publishers and get published first. he says, find an agent when you are making
enough money that you might get cheated. (paraphrasing).

[James D. Macdonald]

And remember Stephen King's First Rule of Writers and Agents, learned by bitter personal experience: You don't need one until you're making enough for someone to steal ... and if you're making that much, you'll be able to take your pick of good agents.

This is true.

It's also true that times have changed so that you have fewer markets for novels that don't require agents. (Or, at least, request agents. Even places that have agented-only policies still have back doors and side paths.)

Mostly, he's talking there about building a reputation with short stories. That's where he started, and it's still a good way to go. No one is going to say, "Hey, look at that short-story writer's Porsche!" but reputation is one of the payments of short stories.

(Oh, and that article is from 1986.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Astoundingly, someone thought it would be a good idea to plagiarize Atlanta Nights (http://authonomy.com/ViewBook.aspx?bookid=18899) over at Authonomy.

[Calliopenjo]

Is anything going to happen to the plagiarist?

[eqb]

Astoundingly, someone thought it would be a good idea to plagiarize Atlanta Nights (http://authonomy.com/ViewBook.aspx?bookid=18899) over at Authonomy.

*brain cramp*

[HistorySleuth]

Which one is it? The link goes to the main site and there is just toooo much stuff on there.

[James D. Macdonald]

That was a direct link. Apparently my "report abuse" report worked.

It was a book called "Savana knights" which was word-for-word identical with Atlanta Nights, in the three chapters that were given.

Meanwhile, the first part of Jim Hines' first-novel survey is out: http://www.jimchines.com/2010/03/novel-survey-results-part-i/

The questions he's addressing are: Do you need to publish short stories in order to sell your novel, and is self-publishing the road to a professional sale?

[HConn]

There are other destructive things that writers do to themselves. Like watch anyone's career but their own.

(...)

The rest? Not under your control.

I'll admit, I've been doing this. And it sucks.

I'm not comparing advances, because I don't know that information. I have been glancing at Amazon.com sales rankings and at supermarket/drugstore racks where other debut novels are for sale but not mine.

I realize the Amazon.com rankings are useless--intellectually. I still glance at them. I know I'm not supposed to, but it's so damn tempting just to see how it's trending.

A short while ago I jokingly posted a definition of "darf" (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012212.html#402147): to win a "contest" with an opponent who doesn't know you're competing with them. Except I'm not winning. It makes me want to go back and change the def so it's just the imaginary contest.

[euclid]

Which one is it? The link goes to the main site and there is just toooo much stuff on there.

I couldn't find it either, but I registered (as "euclid") and now I have another something to spend my free time on.

[HistorySleuth]

More than a few traces are left here (http://authonomy.com/Profile.aspx?userid=2ed3cf85-5c59-47ef-bfb7-1697e93f782f) and here (http://authonomy.com/MyMessages.aspx?userid=6c03a648-d315-4d09-a280-5a26eac1afaf).

I think I would ask Authonomy to remove the user account "Travis Tea" too so all traces of it are gone. Of course maybe that's different as far as plagiarism. I still think it's deceptive considering someone who posted thinks Atlanta Nights is in the public domain, not to mention all the comments (http://authonomy.com/MyMessages.aspx?userid=019faf73-18b4-433d-bb71-c69ac5c178a3) "Travis Tea" has left previous to the book being deleted. Who knows how many of those he left everywhere about "savana Knights."

IMHO .......

Forgot to say what else I wanted to say. I went over to read the Hines survey. I wouldn't think that short stories are a must, but I do see how it would help. I normally write non-fiction, a lot for a quarterly out of our county historian's office. It's sold locally of course, but we also have over 900 subscribers, most in other states, some across the ocean. Now I don't know if anyone important ever reads it but, it is sort of like tear sheets I figure. It shows a lot of my writing that's been published. Locally they know who I am. (I did a historical true crime in 2000, no big deal, self published through Morris Publishing, but I sold over 700.) So personally, is it a must? No. Helps? Yes.

[James D. Macdonald]

All that previously-published short stories tell us is the answer to this question: Can write at a professional level? (Yes/No)


It doesn't answer the question: Is this book any good?

Write short stories if you like, but don't think they're required.

The Future of Publishing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Weq_sHxghcg), from Penguin UK. (Video)

The Publisher-Dating Dictionary. (http://www.kitwhitfield.com/publisherdating.html)

[James D. Macdonald]

Beginning tomorrow, we'll be discussing the last chapter of Swag by Elmore Leonard.

Other than that, I may be a bit scarce. I'm under a hard deadline. The Gates of Time to be laid on Claire Eddy's desk by noon, 16 April 2010.

[Scribhneoir]

Beginning tomorrow, we'll be discussing the last chapter of Swag by Elmore Leonard.


This will be fun. :hooray: I just finished the book last night and I'm really looking forward to dissecting an ending instead of a beginning.

[James D. Macdonald]

SPOILERS FOR SWAG BY ELMORE LEONARD, COMING IN THE VERY NEXT POST!

[James D. Macdonald]

What shall we say about the last chapter of Swag by Elmore Leonard?


First, let us say *SPOILER ALERT*

Next, let us say that I'm not going to retype the entire last chapter.




Now: *SPOILER ALERT*

















The novel has gone from chapters that are all one long scene in a single viewpoint, to chapters with two scenes, to switching viewpoints, until we arrive at the last chapter which is a collection of short scenes -- some as short as two paragraphs, a dozen lines.

The effect is of increasing pace and frenetic activity. So let's look at those scenes one at a time. Chapter 28.....

First scene is in the courtroom. Characters are Stick, the "fat black prosecutor," Cal Brown (a cop), and a judge.

This is the same cast of characters that we saw in Chapter One. The cop there didn't have a name, but there was a cop who liked to show his firearm, just like Cal does. Missing is Frank Ryan.

The outcome of this scene is the same as the outcome of Chapter One. Once again, Stick walks because the prosecution doesn't have a case. This time it's in less than two pages, though, as compared to the seven pages that the exact same plot arc, with the same characters, took in Chapter One. We've been on this merry-go-round before; no need to over-explain. The readers have the picture. Rather than a chapter break, we get a line break. The pace isn't slowing. And the Courtroom arc is now complete. We end Chapter One in a courtroom, we begin Chapter 28 in for-all-practical-purposes the same courtroom. We know, because we've been watching for well over 200 pages, what came after the first appearance. The author is implicitly promising us Something Different.

Second scene is a tad over one page (that is, shorter than the first scene). We're close in on Stick, who has been our main character throughout the book. Stick is talking to Arlene on the phone (Arlene who has mostly been physically separated from Stick throughout the book, by her travels, and later by her hiding). Stick is laying out the plan for her, for the getaway. We're reworking Chapter 2 here. Chapter 2 had Stick and Frank, with Frank explaining his plan to Stick. Now Frank is the one who doesn't know the plan, while Stick is the one who knows what's going to happen. We've learned that Stick is very good at making plans; we trust him. We've seen him come out of some bad situations through his ability to plan. Looks like he's going to make it, and Crime Will Pay.

(BTW, just so folks get the idea of the stakes, $87,000 in 1975 (when this book was written) would be worth well over $300,000 today. Which explains why Stick doesn't just say, "Well, that didn't work" and walk away.)

The second scene ends with Stick saying "I don't see how we can miss," which tells me he never read the Rules for Evil Overlords. This is the author telling the reader, "The plan won't work." That's foreshadowing. Now the reader will see how the plan doesn't work. We're anticipating it. (Ten pages to go!)

The third scene is with Arlene. She's ending her old life, and she's taking care of her end of the plan. She wishes she had some Ajax to clean the stain from the bathtub, which might symbolize her desire to become clean herself; the stain came from her participation in the robbery. How can she remove that stain? She's leaving her old life behind--her life symbolized by the life-size cardboard cutout of herself. She's leaving herself (and her old life) behind.

Fourth scene is very brief. Third person limited, Stick's POV, and closing off the Frank and Stick Apartment plot-arc. It's a little bit of housekeeping, and answering the readers' question, What About the Apartment? before it's asked.

Fifth scene: We're with Cal Brown, the cop, now. He first appeared about half-way through the book, and has been getting more and more scenes, action, and dialog as the novel's progressed. He's still reactive to Stick's action, but he's beginning to take action himself. Just over a page to this scene. A transition scene, taking Stick and Frank to the airport, where they're planning to go to Florida (tying off the I'm Going to Florida plot arc that's been overriding the entire rest of the novel. What does Stick want? To go to Florida to see his daughter.

Sixth scene: Frank and Stick argue about where to park the car, a car that they both know they're never going to come back to recover. This echoes the Frank-and-Stick- and-the-Car bit from Chapter One, and keeps us tight in on our protagonists.

Seventh scene: Tying up the Arlene plot arc. Arlene decides at the last minute that she's not going to Florida, she's going to California (and "going to California" has been thoroughly planted throughout the book, only it's always been Frank who had been in, and might return to, California). We're allowed to think that she's absconded with the cash. And hey, if she has, the cops really have nothing on Frank and Stick. Easy come, easy go, even if there were six dead men in between. That would return the board to the condition it had been in before the book started: And that's an unsatisfactory ending. This scene has a great closing line: Arlene walked over to the American counter.

And that's the half-way point in the chapter as far as page count. It's the little hinge.

Eighth scene: It takes Frank and Stick from the parking garage, through the ticket line, and up to the point where they're arrested. But the arrest won't stick, not with what the cops have, not with what they can prove, and, if Arlene had done what Stick told her. His plan is still running, but ... we the readers know that Arlene's gone off the plan. Now we don't know what'll happen. Five pages to wrap this up.... this scene is one of the longest in the chapter, at two full pages. And it ends with an even stronger last line: The state policeman said, "Pick up your bag, buddy, now."

Ninth scene is slightly longer, making it the longest in the chapter. We have Frank, Stick, and Cal, alone in a room with the suitcases that Cal is certain contains the swag, but we, Frank, and Stick know don't. Here's real climax of the book: two words. A note from Arlene: I'm sorry.

Scene ten, less that a page, as the author hustles everyone off stage and ties up the couple of loose ends: Cal arrests Frank and Stick; Frank and Stick walk out of the airport in handcuffs.

There are a couple of very strong lines in this scene, though. Frank saying, "Whose fault is it, mine?" And we the readers know that the answer is yes. Frank came up with the idea of becoming armed robbers. And Frank brought about their downfall by breaking every one of the rules he came up with in Chapter 2, and which we saw written as an explicit list on the very first page of Chapter 3 (thus tying off the entire Ryan's Rules plot in a neat bow).

And the last line of the book is dynamite: Stick said, "Frank, why don't you just shut the fuck up?"

(In 1975 this line would have been even stronger: Not too long before, the word "fuck" had been quite literally unprintable.)

Had Stick said that to Frank at their first meeting, Stick (petty thief by trade) wouldn't be staring at six counts of murder with special circumstances. Instead ... we have the moral, Crime Does Not Pay, and we're out of the book and done.


-------------

Discussion to follow. What did y'all think about the ending of Swag?

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay, who else read Swag? Any thoughts on the ending?

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Okay, who else read Swag? Any thoughts on the ending?
You mentioned that the pace picked up, mainly due to the writing. If so, then it went far too fast. It was a jumble, and it took me three tries to realize that the locker key that Arlene tucked inside the American Airlines ticket holder was the real clincher -- that was where she'd stashed the money.

Frank's character had also taken a 180 from the beginning -- from Master Schemer to Non-entity. Ernest had likewise gone from small-time car thief to the Man with thew Plan.

Yes, all went wrong for the Bad Guys, and the Good Guys won, but the ending left me, ahh, with a meh feeling. Too neat, too well tied-up, and too much dependent on the nasty quirks of fate. Yes, Frank and Ernest failed, and their crime didn't pay, but at the same time, Cal and the Detroit PD had it just fall into their laps. Go Arlene.

If she had kept the money for herself (like she thinks things will be cheaper in LA than metro Detroit?) the cops case falls apart -- like you said, without the $wag, no case.

Arlene acted out of character.

[Scribhneoir]

You mentioned that the pace picked up, mainly due to the writing. If so, then it went far too fast.

I agree, mostly. It wasn't the last chapter that went too fast for me, though. It was the dispatching of Sportree and Leon that was too rushed. After all the set up with Stick realizing Sportree means to kill him and Frank and then coming up with a plan to turn the tables led me to expect a bigger battle. Instead -- boom. Leon and Sportree come to a nasty end in just two sentences.

It was a jumble, and it took me three tries to realize that the locker key that Arlene tucked inside the American Airlines ticket holder was the real clincher -- that was where she'd stashed the money.

I got that right away and loved it. I was so hoping she had taken the cash with her so that Stick and Frank would get away (well, Stick anyway -- I was hoping Frank would get it in the end), but no.


Arlene acted out of character.

I think she acted exactly in character. It was pretty typical of her to lose focus on the matter at hand and follow whatever thought flitted through her mind. It was inevitable that she'd flake out on Stick's plan. He would have seen that coming if he hadn't convinced himself he was in love with her.

[James D. Macdonald]

Stick was such a fun character that Leonard brought him back for a sequel, titled Stick. We find out that he got seven-to-twenty for armed robbery, so the Detroit cops and that prosecutor screwed that up too.

The first chapter is here (http://www.elmoreleonard.com/index.php?/novels/excerpt/stick1/).

[Blue Sky]

Okay, who else read Swag? Any thoughts on the ending?

Fun how Leonard teased and reminded us of ch 1 with the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice.

Nice pace kept us going too quickly to second guess the logic. I thought it was going waaaay too quickly, but my story questions were answered one after another. I felt Frank and Stick's anxiety and the Cal's hope for the kill.

I enjoyed how Leonard had me caring about what happened to the two dirt balls. Great characterization. I wanted Stick to fly and Frank to fall, but it felt satisfying when they both went down due to stupid greed.

Effective suspense. I knew our two friends were going down, but didn't hang my hat on it until the locker key fell from the envelope.

Finally, when I got to Stick telling Frank to shut the fuck up, I thought, "That's it?" Then I laughed. Of course that was it. What else was left to say? I felt like telling Frank to shut the fuck up whenever he opened his mouth. So did Stick.

As an aside, the shooting scenes felt real to me. Even fist fights rarely last more than a few seconds. Usually the first one to land a blow wins. We've been bamboozled by Hollywood.

I almost missed this due to lots of work. Whew.

[Scribhneoir]

As an aside, the shooting scenes felt real to me. Even fist fights rarely last more than a few seconds. Usually the first one to land a blow wins. We've been bamboozled by Hollywood.


Oh yes, as a matter of practicality it makes perfect sense for Stick to shoot at once and shoot to kill and not take a chance on losing. But as a reader, I wanted more ... oomph.

[Teckelvik]

I thought that one of the themes of the book was that who you are is who you are. When you pretend to be someone else, you fail. Everyone in this scene had been trying to be someone else, and reverted to their true self.

We've seen Stick, and he's a guy who keeps his mouth shut and watches. He doesn't talk, he notices things. This scene where he's laying it out for Arlene is his longest speech, and he isn't noticing things. That's when it all falls apart for him.

Frank is a big talker, and impulsive, easily manipulated and driven by what he thinks other people think. He pretends to be a planner, a cool customer, and the one who directs others, and he fails. He's in way over his head.

Arlene is a showgirl, for want of a better word. She never gives any sign of wanting to be anything else. She tries to walk away from her dream, but that's all she has, all that gives meaning to her life. When she's faced with the reality of leaving it, she can't do it, and she returns to who she really is and wants to be.

To me, it was a satisfying ending.

[James D. Macdonald]

Frank and Stick have run opposite character development, one rising, one falling. They start at the same place (in the used car lot) with one a businessman and the other a thief, yet they end at the same place, literally handcuffed together.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sent back the galleys for Lincoln's Sword today.

[Dave Willhoite]

Sent back the galleys for Lincoln's Sword today.

I am betting that that is a really good place to be.

Dave

[eqb]

Sent back the galleys for Lincoln's Sword today.

I just got my first novel galleys! (Uncle Jim, this is the novel based on the novella you read at Viable Paradise, lo, many years ago.)

[jinkang]

Joining the fray a little late since I just finished the book, $wag. Thanks, Uncle Jim, by the way.

I thought the middle of the book suffered (for me) but since we're talking about ending, I won't go further.

I definitely recognized the technique used to increase the pacing (short scenes and multiple POVs).The problem I had was, like Duncan said, I felt the ending was too neat. I mean, yes, Crime doesn't pay...but it felt like those Pokemon shows (I think someone mentioned before), where you have these characters doing all sorts of bad things...but they never learn or change (in terms of morality). Then all of the sudden, they are locked up because of one hitch and we have the author telling us "crime doesn't pay."

At least that's how I felt. Perhaps all throughout, I was hoping for a bit of happy ending for Stick...a redemption, if you will.
(And that's despite all the killing he did...since the last few death really didn't impact me as it should have. They happened too fast.)

Hmm... perhaps it's the difference between a plot story vs a character story?

I did enjoy how the end tied up with the very beginning though (the court, the rules, etc.).

Thanks again.

[HConn]

I just got my first novel galleys! (Uncle Jim, this is the novel based on the novella you read at Viable Paradise, lo, many years ago.)

Whoo-hoo! Congratulations!

[euclid]

Changing the subject abruptly, I have started a lively discussion with a beta reader about the synopsis. I seem to remember reading somewhere in AW that the FULL synopsis should be about one page per 10,000 words of the book, describing all main turning points and the ending of the book. (Can't find where I read this).

The SHORT synopsis, should be 2/3 pages long at most and should NOT reveal the ending of the book.

Is this right?

(I apologize, Jim if this is not the right place for this post)

[RJK]

Love your avatar, Euclid. Most agents I've seen have asked for a 1 or 2 page synopsis, the shorter the better. Time is money for them.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd say that any synopsis should reveal the ending. One of the things the agent/editor wants to know is "Does this clown know how to end a book or does everyone get run over by a truck?"

There's nothing wrong with doing a one page, a three page, and a ten page synopsis. (All single spaced, all present tense.) Then pull out whichever one is most appropriate when the agent/editor/whoever requests it.

[euclid]

Thanks for that, both RJK and Jim. I have seen an agent's submission guidelines which say: ...and no, don't spoil the ending... I suppose she's the exception that proves the rule.

[James D. Macdonald]

A specific agent's guidelines trump any amount of general advice... for that agent.

[James D. Macdonald]

David Mamet on creating scenes. (http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2010/03/david-mamets-brilliant-memo-on-drama.html)

[euclid]

Jim, I've read that memo twice and cut and pasted it into a file on my computer for future reference.

I'm wondering, though, how pertinent is it to the novel writer. Some scenes in a novel need to have high levels of drama, sure, but surely not all.

[James D. Macdonald]

The take-away lesson is that all scenes need to be there for a reason, and the reason has to be in support of the reader's experience, not for the convenience of the author.

[euclid]

Point taken.

In a novel, would you rule out any scene where two characters discuss a third? Couldn't a scene like that enhance the reader's experience and move the plot along?

[HistorySleuth]

I did a copy/past too eucid. It was a very good article. I was wondering the same thing as you though as to the third person part as it applies to a mystery or detective story. A couple of cops trying to figure out who done it wouldn't talk about their suspects in front of the suspects. Well if they are interviewing him/her, yes, but there could be a squad room full of cops discussing a third person, even if they didn't know who that third person is. I think there are ways to do that without info dumping. Although for the most part you would put the interviews or what they discover out there and let the reader figure it out of course, but in some cases, cops/detectives do discuss the elusive killer (third person).

As far as popular TV shows, (since he was taking about TV) they do it all the time, and the show is still entertaining and you don't necessarily know who did it until later, yet still have to guess who it is, especially shows like Criminal Minds.

[James D. Macdonald]

In a novel, would you rule out any scene where two characters discuss a third?


No. I wouldn't rule out any scene.

This is an art. There are no rules, nothing is cast in concrete. You'll find a confusing and contradictory web of suggestions, guidelines, and hints.

But you, the artist, have to make the final decisions.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Hello Jim.

I'm working on a satire in first person. But, for some reason I'm now getting cold feet about writing it in present tense and thinking about switching to past. Do you think I should continue as I am or make the switch now to make the editing less of a chore? I'm only 20k into it. Also, I'm aware of pros and cons for both past and present tense, but could you mention any that I may have overlooked? Please and thank you.

[euclid]

You'll find a confusing and contradictory web of suggestions, guidelines, and hints.


Ain't that the truth?

[David Wisehart]

In detective novels, many of the scenes are two characters talking about the third. But these scenes can work well because it is clear what the main character (usually the detective) wants, and what the obstacle is. Generally, the detective wants information and the obstacle is the person he's talking to. Somebody wants something and has a hard time getting it. That works. It's dramatic. If the detective wants information, and the other person just tells him willingly, then there's no obstacle and it's not dramatic.

[FOTSGreg]

Okay, guys and Uncle Jim, I've got a question and I'm sure it;s been answered before. If you could just direct me to the answer...

The question: In a science fiction novel I have referenced several well-known individuals within certain scientific circles (Thomas Eisner (living), Edward O. Wilson (living), Theodore Schneirla (deceased)). All are quite famous in their fields and one is even famous outside his primary field. In no case could the references be considered at any point insulting, defamatory, or otherwise objectionable (they are heroes to the MC of the work).

Do I need to obtain permission to use a famous real person in a work of fiction wherein the reference is positive or should I just change the names to avoid any and all potential problems (they're only mentioned a few times so it would be easy enough).

[James D. Macdonald]

Are they characters, or just referenced?

If you are just mentioning them in passing...no problem.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, I'm just having the MC mention them in passing. In one scene the MC points to a (real) article online. In another scene another character references the other two to try to describe the potential he sees in the MC.

In no case are the referenced individuals ever actually "in" a scene nor will they ever be in a scene.

[James D. Macdonald]

I really don't see an issue.

[lucidzfl]

Uncle Jim, I have a question completely unrelated to writing. How do you think that the recent health care reform is going to affect you, if at all?

In addition, how do you think it will affect other midlist authors?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, I have a question completely unrelated to writing. How do you think that the recent health care reform is going to affect you, if at all?

In addition, how do you think it will affect other midlist authors?

If they ever get around to a public option it will be tremendously freeing. Entirely too many authors (and not just mid-listers) have "Don't get sick" as their health plan.

[lucidzfl]

If they ever get around to a public option it will be tremendously freeing. Entirely too many authors (and not just mid-listers) have "Don't get sick" as their health plan.

That's kind of what I thought. It looks as though the transition will be at just the right time for me. I'll give up the day job where I'd be "paying" for everyone's health care, to writing where I'll be "getting" the health care :)

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, I really don't see an issue.

Thanks, Uncle Jim. That's also very "freeing" (like I need anything else to worry about).

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Why we put running heads on our manuscripts.... (http://torforge.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/before-production-went-paperless/)

[Cliff Face]

Nice.

[James D. Macdonald]

Tor turns 30 (http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/456059-Opening_New_Doors.php)

[James D. Macdonald]

"Unless one is a genius, it is best to aim at being intelligible."
--Anthony Hope

[Big Wolf]

Question about complexity in a commercial novel:
How complex is too complex?
I have finished the first draft of a historical fantasy novel (I'm a bit uncomfortable with that label, but that's the subject of another thread), which is a fairly straightforward plot, but includes a lot of themes.
Plot: boy's parents are murdered, he uses magical heirloom to avenge them, which starts him on a quest. He avenges his parents, then gets exiled from his home (a very poor village) and goes to Constantinople to learn the secret of his heirloom. On the way, he kills a dragon.
The heirloom gets stolen, he begins another quest to recover it, kills monsters.
Intertwined in this is a love story: boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back but finds out she's really not right for him.
He also grow up a lot and learns to trust himself.

In the story, I have deliberately incorporated as many of the myths that underlie much of western literature as I can: the fisher king, Sigfried, the Evil King, the doomed mentor, etc.

There is a look at early Christianity and its struggle through disparate beliefs that were labeled heresies, as well as looks at mythologies and religions of ancient Europe, and at Gnosticism and mysticism.

So, is this too much? It's around 130,000 words, and the plot is fairly straightforward: crime, revenge, quest, boy meets girl, loses girl, loses heirloom, gets it all back at the end. And I like to tell myself the plot hangs together.

What do you think, Uncle Jim?

[James D. Macdonald]

How complex is too complex?

Does it confuse the reader?

Be aware that the line between archetype and cliche can sometimes be vanishingly thin....

[Big Wolf]

I am very conscious of the issue of cliche. But I do want to expand upon archetypes and established myths of the western world. In fact, the main point I want to exposit is the idea of major myths of western literature and society. So there are basic stories that I am using. After all, the Greeks said there are only, what, 7 or 8 basic stories:
- boy meets girl
-revenge
- coming of age
- kill the king/father
- the Quest
- a fish out of water
- redemption

So, I am consciously trying to incorporate as many of these themes as possible. Not to overdo it, obviously.

What do you think?

S

[James D. Macdonald]

What do I think? Without reading the work in question, there's nothing I could possibly think. Is it done well? Does it work?

Do it. When it's done, then you'll know the answer.


I'm going to quote Watt-Evans' Law of Literary Creation (http://www.watt-evans.com/lawsoffantasy.html): There is no idea so stupid or hackneyed that a sufficiently-talented writer can't get a good story out of it.

And with that, Feist's Corollary: There is no idea so brilliant or original that a sufficiently-untalented writer can't screw it up.

===========

For reasons that I won't go into here, I recently found myself re-reading Raymond Chandler's The Simple Art of Murder. One thing struck me about the essay: He complains that hacks are taking over popular fiction and getting more shelf space and attention than serious writers. The essay was written in 1950.

[Big Wolf]

That begs the question: when he was writing, was Chandler considered a "serious writer," or a pulp hack himself? I love Chandler's writing, but I don't think the "serious" crowd ever considered him in the same category as Faulker or Steinbeck. Or even Hammet.

[James D. Macdonald]

We've seen the same complaints right here in the Novels board, from folks ranging from aspiring writers on up. It doesn't seem to matter where in the publishing food chain someone's located.

[Calliopenjo]

This is a bit OT, but educational in another way as well.

What Not To Do When You Get a Rejection (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/) by Colleen Lindsay. It shows the wide variety of people out there.

[euclid]

In the story, I have deliberately incorporated as many of the myths that underlie much of western literature as I can: the fisher king, Sigfried, the Evil King, the doomed mentor, etc.



Your question prompts a different set of questions: What are these myths that underlie much of western literature? Where can I find out more about these myths and, maybe, a complete list? In what sense do they underlie the said literature? Is it imperative that I answer these questions before I can call myself a writer of western literature?

It seems my education has been sorely lacking. Who knew?

Nice doggie.

[Krintar]

This is a bit OT, but educational in another way as well.

What Not To Do When You Get a Rejection (http://theswivet.blogspot.com/) by Colleen Lindsay. It shows the wide variety of people out there.
Oh goodness. It's always somewhat hard to believe that there actually are people that stupid out there.

[James D. Macdonald]

Where can I find out more about these myths and, maybe, a complete list?

Two places. I think we've mentioned both over the years:

The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, and the Stith Thompson folklore motif index.

[euclid]

Thanks for that, Jim.

Another question: I believe my efforts to date lack emotional content. I'm hoping my next book will provide an emotional payoff for the reader. To this end, I need to identify possible emotional themes to provide the said payoff.

Is there a reference book for this kind of thing?

[James D. Macdonald]

Look deep within yourself, Euclid. What satisfies you emotionally?

[James D. Macdonald]

Turned in The Gates of Time. Woo hoo! Go me!

Next book, starting Monday, is City of Dreadful Night, an Orville Nesbit adventure.

[Calliopenjo]

Good for you Uncle Jim.

Orville Nesbit sounds like an interesting character. Haven't known many Orvilles

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm promoting Orville from a couple of short stories ("Ecdysis" and "A Tremble in the Air"). He's a psychic investigator.

[Calliopenjo]

Orville will be happy.

[HistorySleuth]

Congrats Uncle Jim!

[Big Wolf]

Congrats on finishing another novel.

As for sources, or where you can find out about the underlying myths that are repeated in literature, stories and especially Hollywood movies, I know I was taught about this idea in school and university, but did not pay much attention. But where it came up again was when I read the book Iron John about 10 years ago - it was a big trend. But another good book for this is Medieval Myths by Norma Goodrich, first published in 1961 by Penguin. Your library will probably have a copy.

[James D. Macdonald]

There's also Curious Myths of the Middle Ages by Sabine Baring-Gould, which has a lot of good stuff. Let's not forget The Golden Legend. And Grimm's Teutonic Mythology.

Meanwhile, an actual photo of me turning in the book: http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/35367.html#cutid1

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of archetypes and cliches, as we just were, here is the Fantasy Novelist's Final Exam. (http://www.rinkworks.com/fnovel/)

[euclid]

Speaking of archetypes and cliches, as we just were, here is the Fantasy Novelist's Final Exam. (http://www.rinkworks.com/fnovel/)

Wow! That's 75 reasons why I will never attempt Fantasy!

[Krintar]

I'm not sure what hay balers have to do with fantasy novels. I don't think I've ever read a fantasy novel which talked about someone making bales of hay...

#33 was brilliant though; it actually did make me laugh out loud.

[Cliff Face]

Speaking of archetypes and cliches, as we just were, here is the Fantasy Novelist's Final Exam. (http://www.rinkworks.com/fnovel/)

Love it. :)

[Neversage]

I just took the Fantasy writer's exam, and the results are that I can answer "yes" to one of the questions, and "sort-of" to two others. The rest fall somewhere between "no" and "absolutely not."

I'll admit it, my story is about a good guy who gains power and defeats a bad guy, but that's such a narrow way to look at it in this case; there is so much more than that going on around it.

[Jamie Stone]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Thanks for all the amazingly useful advice! I've learned so much here and everywhere else on the Water Cooler, I can't even believe what treasure troves this whole board and all of its talented authors are.

I have a question regarding where in the MC's narrative to begin a novel. Some sources suggest showing the reader a bit of the status quo, then leading up to the action or inciting event. Others say that the first page of the novel, more or less, should be the moment that changes the MC's life or sparks the conflict of the plot, and that everything else is superfluous backstory.

What is your recommendation, or your preference in your own writing, and why?

[James D. Macdonald]

I like to start with The Moment Everything Changes (though that could come anywhere in the first chapter, not necessarily in the first line of the first paragraph).

Just to show what a maverick I am, the latest book I turned in a) is in first person, b) started with the protagonist waking up in bed, and c) moved from there to a weather report.

Why?

Just because I could.

[HConn]

Reading that exam, I get the itch to develop a story where I'd answer "yes" to at least half the questions.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hconn: That is a good thing. Do it! Break every rule! Make it work, and make me love it.

There's nothing that stokes creativity more than constraints.

[batgirl]

I'm not sure what hay balers have to do with fantasy novels. I don't think I've ever read a fantasy novel which talked about someone making bales of hay...

#33 was brilliant though; it actually did make me laugh out loud.
Um. I've run across way too many references to bales of hay in fantasy culture that DON'T HAVE THAT LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY. If they have mechanical balers, they have all the tech that goes with that. And that changes their society. Seriously.
I've read published fantasies that were otherwise about 15th c. European and included sheet-metal buckets and wire knitting needles - no other sheet metal tech, mind you, just one damn bucket. Leaving me asking who made the bucket, and what happened to the rolling mills etc. afterwards? Is it the artefact of an ancient vanished civilisation (The Sheet-Metal Age, as in Bored of the Rings)? Or is it a writer who isn't paying attention to her own world?
In another, otherwise brilliantly cohesive 17th c. flavour fantasy, a vital clue to evildoing is a single thread caught in the wire of a bale of hay. Why? If they have wire-pulling mechanised enough that it can be wasted on bales of hay, and mechanical balers, why are they still using wind-powered sailing ships? Why is everything horse-drawn?
All of this could have been avoided by using an oak bucket, wood or bone knitting needles, and any rough bit of wood in a stable. It's so easily avoidable. And I happen to believe that a fantasy world is better for being more thoroughly thought out.
For the record, the hobbits having umbrellas bothered me too.
-Barbara

[James D. Macdonald]

You can have startling results by putting your story on a technological watershed. For example, a Western in which one character has a horseless carriage, or another character has a broomstick Mauser.

Right now, living in this world, there are people living at every level of tech, from 21st century to stone-age.

Before you start building worlds, first know your own.

[IdiotsRUs]

included sheet-metal buckets and wire knitting needles Which is why I just say 'bucket' unless the sheet-metal aspect is vital to the plot. Which I can't actually see happening. It's a bucket. Buckets are not interesting :D

I passed the exam for my WIP, I think. Only one yes and one kinda. *does happy dance*

ETA: Why? If they have wire-pulling mechanised enough that it can be wasted on bales of hay, and mechanical balers, why are they still using wind-powered sailing ships? Do you have a problem with pirates with the tech to have guns still using sail-powered ships?

[James D. Macdonald]

There's guns, and then there's guns. There's 15th century tech guns, and there's 20th century tech guns.

I'd kinda have a problem with an 18th c. wind-powered ship mounting a 25mm chain gun, if the rest of the society was 18th c. On the other hand, there are wind-powered pirate ships today, with pirates who carry shoulder-launched missiles.

Incidentally, we don't mostly use baling wire any more. These days it's baling twine. But somewhere in the world some folks are using baling wire, and somewhere else in the world some folks are using scythes and pitchforks to build haystacks.

[IdiotsRUs]

Well yes, exactly. Just because there's the tech / motivation to use it in one area,(killing people) doesn't always follow the tech stays the same all across the board (using know how for making flintlocks with all the springs and stuff involved and ammo in large-ish numbers doesn't mean they'll use that tech to move ships faster).

It's a tricky thing to get right in fantasy.

[FOTSGreg]

Pardon my intrusion, but I wanted to share some news.

A visit to Conestoga 14 (at the Tulsa Radisson this weekend) this morning and this afternoon might (remember might) have paid off. I put a partial for Hatchings into the hands of Tyree Campbell, editor and publisher of Sam's Dot Publishing this morning and he asked to see Night On A Boat (my short Quentin Dallas vignette) in an email Monday.

This evening I met Travis Taylor and during our conversation he offered to give me a copy of his book on planetary defense (which sells on Amazon for $35). I turned the offer down, of course (stating that I appreciated it, however), but if I see him tomorrow morning I might just take him up on the offer (probably not; I'm far too polite for my own good sometimes).

I haven't seen S.M. Sterling yet, and naturally I expect a rejection from Mr. Campbell (even though he complimented me several times for knowing how to format a manuscript and to use commas) and after saying he wouldn't read the partial and synopsis during the Con when I left he was sitting there reading it anyway (he thought the idea of a secret government agency buried inside FEMA was a remarkably plausible one).

So, for what it's worth, and the remarkably short time I've actually had to spend at the convention, it was well worth the $35 registration fee. I just wish I could have stayed for the "meet & greets" and the parties tonight (I don't see too well at night these days (badly need new glasses) and I have a taillight and a rear blinker light out so driving at night is only done on as as-needed basis).

So, all-in-all, it looks like the July epub date for Hatchings is off the table for the moment (though I need to dive into that final, final, final edit again and git 'er done).

I also ran into K.D. Wentworth and Glen Cook, both of whom I know from last year's Conestoga and we had a pleasant conversation or three. They're both terrific people and Glen's wife Carole is delightful (I met her this morning).

[Calliopenjo]

Good for you FOTSGreg and good luck.

[James D. Macdonald]

Go, you!

[Ehab.Ahmed]

I just took the Fantasy writer's exam, and the results are that I can answer "yes" to one of the questions, and "sort-of" to two others. The rest fall somewhere between "no" and "absolutely not."

I'll admit it, my story is about a good guy who gains power and defeats a bad guy, but that's such a narrow way to look at it in this case; there is so much more than that going on around it.
I agree. But if I've learned anything from my stay here at AW, it's that "rules" aren't written in stone; you follow what you like, consider the rest, and break whatever you like -- given you do a good job at that.

[Krintar]

I can see how in that one case, it was a significant problem. What I'm wondering is: Are there really that many fantasy books where hay bales are worth mentioning? Are there so many books in which a bale of hay is relevant to the story/characters/theme?
I can't personally imagine ever writing about hay, because hay in itself isn't interesting. It could be used for something (as in the example you gave), but I'm having trouble getting my head around the idea that there are enough stories revolving around hay for it to be an "exam question".
...and if it's not important (but is there to potentially bug the readers anyway) then I don't think "when was this invented?" is the most important question to ask. "Why am I wasting space on irrelevant text?" should come first.

[bearilou]

...and if it's not important (but is there to potentially bug the readers anyway) then I don't think "when was this invented?" is the most important question to ask. "Why am I wasting space on irrelevant text?" should come first.

But the space doesn't have to be dedicated to this one small fact. It only has to be made in passing. Readers will still snag on it. I don't think many will ask 'when was this invented' but the fact that there is an anachronism peeking out of the text will cause them to stumble, back up and go '....waaaait a minute.' If it's enough to pull your readers from the story, to peck at their subconsciousness until they are tempted to put the book down, then it is problematic.

Now, it can be argued 'they already bought the book and we have their money'. It can also be argued that the reader will remember the author and not buy his next book. I can say with certainty that's happened to me on several occasions. One sentence has caused me not only to put the book down but to not pick another by that author again.

[FOTSGreg]

Thanks, Uncle Jim & Calliopenjo.

[euclid]

76 Does your book include dragons?
77 How about a race of people who ride the dragons?

[jinkang]

76 Does your book include dragons?
77 How about a race of people who ride the dragons?

76 No, but I got Nogards.
77 Nogards are like small fat kobolds with wings that don't work. They enslave humanity for sole purpose of riding them on their shoulders. (because Nogards got puny legs)

Seriously though, I think these rules are fun to read but you shouldn't be a slave to it.

[Neversage]

I agree. But if I've learned anything from my stay here at AW, it's that "rules" aren't written in stone; you follow what you like, consider the rest, and break whatever you like -- given you do a good job at that.

It's honestly good to be reminded of that from time to time. After further reflection I arrived at the following conclusion: If it looks like I'm doing something that has been done too much, it isn't me doing it at all. That's just what my characters did, and I can't stop them and still live with myself.

There's a reason that these common "formulas" work so well, it is because that is the human experience.

[RJK]

I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I've seen enough races to know that you break the rules at your own peril. Same goes for writing. If you're one of the best, you can challenge the rules. If you're one of the rest, you best obey.

[MumblingSage]

As for that rule about not having characters with names longer than three syllables, or with apostraphes and dashes, you'd fail if you wrote an urban fantasy with a character named Alexander O'Malley-Smith.

[FOTSGreg]

I just finished emailing Mr. Tyree Campbell at Sam's Dot Publishing the synopsis and first 50 pages of my science fiction novel HATCHINGS plus the short horror vignette NIGHT ON A BOAT per his request.

While I'm not free of these (yet), there is a certain sense of freedom that comes with shifting these items, particularly HATCHINGS off of the front burner so I can get to work on every other project I've got going.

With a certain trepidation, and an anxious sense of oncoming doom, and the full knowledge that extensive edits are certain to be coming if not outright rejection, I lift one hogshead from my shoulders and prepare to put on another.

Thanks, Uncle Jim, for the encouragement, teaching, mentorship, and everything else you've provided to a lot of people over the years. May you live to be a thousand because it's going to take me that long to get as good as you are now.

Not that I'm going anywhere myself. I figure I'll be around this forum for awhile to come (especially after the rejection which is the most likely outcome of this submission).

[sneaky_squirrel]

I just took the Fantasy writer's exam, and the results are that I can answer "yes" to one of the questions, and "sort-of" to two others. The rest fall somewhere between "no" and "absolutely not."

I'll admit it, my story is about a good guy who gains power and defeats a bad guy, but that's such a narrow way to look at it in this case; there is so much more than that going on around it.Just took the exam, I somehow passed since I never watched or read the Lord of the Rings, I was too much in denial it was the next fad after harry potter, not to mention my hate fro the classic over used orc and elves.

I only answered yes to about 3 questions including the ultimate bad guy, the only way to make the reader truly satisfied is by having the MC gain great power and finally defeat the villain, unless of course there is some sort of other equally exciting outcome that beats the classic formula.

[James D. Macdonald]

I was too much in denial it was the next fad after harry potter, not to mention my hate fro the classic over used orc and elves.

The Lord of the Rings had its day as a fad before J. K. Rowling was born.

And who do you think invented the orcs (and popularized the elves) that everyone else ran into the ground?

[ClaudiaGray]

The Lord of the Rings had its day as a fad before J. K. Rowling was born.

And who do you think invented the orcs (and popularized the elves) that everyone else ran into the ground?

It's sort of like that famous English essay some poor teacher had to read, in which the student complained that Hamlet was full of cliches like "sweets for the sweet" and "to be or not to be."

[sneaky_squirrel]

I am fairly young (Around 8 years old when LoTR movies started) so I had no idea LoTR had already been made years ago, I am guessing the books were sold in a new cover along with the films to make more money.

I guess I just strive to be original (A fatal flaw in my personality), I just despise clichés, yet some are inevitable in successful writing.

[eqb]

LotR was published in the 1950s in Britain. The US version was published in the 1960s.

And remember, there's a difference between tropes, archetypes, and cliches. Tolkien wrote in tropes and archetypes, imo. The authors who copied him without considering the roots of his work created cliches.

[jinkang]

And remember, there's a difference between tropes, archetypes, and cliches. Tolkien wrote in tropes and archetypes, imo. The authors who copied him without considering the roots of his work created cliches.

I think it's difficult to avoid writing tropes and archetypes all the time.

Human beings have been telling stories for millenniums, in whatever format the age dictates, and there is a reason why we keep telling certain types of stories: the tropes and archetypes ring closer to our hearts.

It's 'telling' the story in a unique voice that is your own, and well, that I find near impossible at the moment.

[eqb]

I think it's difficult to avoid writing tropes and archetypes all the time.

I never said you should avoid them. They make your story stronger, imo.

It's cliches you should avoid.

[sneaky_squirrel]

A question for the masters ;p.

Is it ok to briefly describe characters in passive if it feels better than just showing it in shallow chit chat type dialogue?

I feel a strong attraction to the first, but I remember reading that telling is very bad in most situations.

Beginning to write is hard (I get nervous about being corrected so I tend to ask or wonder about these minor details).

[batgirl]

How do you describe someone in the passive voice?

"His chestnut-brown hair was slicked back by an expert hand. His acquiline nose might have been shaped by the finest of sculptors. The sparkle of sun-kissed azure waves was evoked by his twinkling eyes."

Like that? It would make kind of a fun writing exercise.

-Barbara (not a master or even a mistress)

[James D. Macdonald]

Is it ok to briefly describe characters in passive if it feels better than just showing it in shallow chit chat type dialogue?

It's okay when it works.

And don't have a reflexive horror of passive voice. It's useful.

[James D. Macdonald]

http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=59268Tor.com welcomes original short SF and fantasy, broadly defined. We’re particularly interested in stories under 12,000 words, although we’ve made exceptions in the past and will do so again. We pay 25 cents a word for the first 5,000 words, 15 cents a word for the next 5,000, and 10 cents a word after that. Although we try to employ common sense in dealing with edge cases, “original” means original—not previously published. Contrary to some previous reports, we do not want you to query first; to submit to Tor.com, just send us your story. Stories should use standard manuscript format and be emailed as Word, RTF, or plain-text attachments. Stories sent inline in the body of an email will be ignored. Questions? Send them to tordotcomsubs@gmail.com

[FOTSGreg]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I just might have a story or two that fits with Tor.

[Neversage]

http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=59268Tor.com welcomes original short SF and fantasy, broadly defined. We’re particularly interested in stories under 12,000 words... tordotcomsubs@gmail.com

Oh my goodness this is going to kill me inside. So here I sit thinking to myself how great it would be to try to get something in for this. As I'm scheming away with plot ideas and such, some of my characters from the novel I am nearer to completing than ever (see what I did there?) rise up against me and complain.
"How can you abandon us?"
"I want to try to get a story together. This thing pays, and maybe I'll write something awesome and get some extra cash to pay my bills, guys."
"But we can make you money if you would just finish our story, you dolt."
"I--but--I don't believe in myself enough to expect that yet!"
"And you want to write a brand new short without believing in yourself?"
"That's not very nice. I want to talk to one of the nicer characters, you're a jerk."
"You made me that way."
"You get better later on, you know. And watch yourself, it wouldn't be hard to have you break your leg, or get herpes or something."
"You really want to write about my herpes?"
"I can soldier through writing gruesome descriptions, can you soldier through living them?"
"How did this start anyway?"
"I dunno. I think I could use a sammich."
"Sandwich."
"No, that's what you get to eat. A sammich is what every sandwich wishes they could be. Sammiches are the rock stars of lunch foods."

And so it goes on like that. Never a dull moment in here. I don't know why I posted it either.

[euclid]

Yeah, me too. I have 3 or 4 stories that I'm now planning to brush up / finish and submit. The past week or so, I've done no writing, just getting snowed under with rejection slips, here. Thanks for the heads-up, Jim. I'm up and running again!

[James D. Macdonald]

The man ran for cover. As he approached the fence the author put out a hand to stop his flight.

"Where do you think you're going?" the author asked.

"Up and over that fence, if it's all the same to you," the man replied, panting.

"You're planning to confuse your motion, horizontal and vertical, in a single sentence?"

"I'm planning to avoid getting shot," the man replied. He waved his hand vaguely in the direction whence he had come. "The whole bloody Tenth Guards Army is back there and they aren't in a laughing mood."

"You're safe as long as you're with me," the author said. "This is first draft--I can do anything."

"Anything?"

"Yes."

"Then get me over the fence, pronto."

Without seeming to move, with no consciousness of the passage of time, the man found himself on the other side of the fence.

"Wait a bloody minute!" he said. "How did you punctuate that?"

"Either with a comma, or without one, depending on the sentence rhythm," the author said. "You were running--no comma I think. Just sprinting in a headlong pell-mell dash."

"Do you mean to say that the rules of grammar--"

"Are just guidelines. Yes."

"But which is correct?"

"The one that sounds right. Here, have comfit."

"What's a comfit?"

"Dried fruit, nuts, or spices enclosed in sugar candy. Like Jordan almonds. Why? Don't you know the word?"

"No, I didn't."

"I'll fix it in the second draft," the author said. "Maybe I'll offer you a nice slice of fruitcake."

"But what about the punctuation question?" the man insisted.

"I don't like the version with the semicolon," the author said. "Of the others either could be correct depending on the sentences around them."

"I just used a 'said' word that isn't 'said' and you didn't notice."

"So you did," the author replied. "I noticed but didn't care. You want rules? Aren't any."

A bullet zinged by the man's head; the author had vanished.

"At least I got over the bloody fence."

The man ran for the safety of the trees.

[Ton Lew Lepsnaci]

Thanks, I guess :) Punctuation without rules ... puts my intuition in the driver's seat. The poor thing is running for cover. This may be the x-th draft, but using a second language. I know, I know, that's against the guidelines. Yet here we are, wondering. Kids need boundaries, so do new writers and it feels so much safer behind bars. Can't you offer at least some? And what is that sardonic laughter in the background?

Ah, but you threw me some bars after all: "I don't like the version with the semicolon," the author said. "Of the others either could be correct depending on the sentences around them." I read too quickly.

[euclid]

http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=59268
Tor.com welcomes original short SF and fantasy, broadly defined. We’re particularly interested in stories under 12,000 words, although we’ve made exceptions in the past and will do so again. We pay 25 cents a word for the first 5,000 words, 15 cents a word for the next 5,000, and 10 cents a word after that. Although we try to employ common sense in dealing with edge cases, “original” means original—not previously published. Contrary to some previous reports, we do not want you to query first; to submit to Tor.com, just send us your story. Stories should use standard manuscript format and be emailed as Word, RTF, or plain-text attachments. Stories sent inline in the body of an email will be ignored. Questions? Send them to tordotcomsubs@gmail.com


Jim, do these pay rates apply for EACH story, or are they cumulative? If I get one story accepted, 5,000 words, say, and then I submit another one, should I expect the second story (if accepted) to fetch 15c per word?

[eqb]

It's per story.

[NoGuessing]

Speaking of archetypes and cliches, as we just were, here is the Fantasy Novelist's Final Exam. (http://www.rinkworks.com/fnovel/)

It's a handy list, but on the most part (bar obvious ones like "hit points", which will never, ever be seen in any of my novels) I think its just a couple of men finding an excuse to be snarky. I read the entire site, and the writer hasn't actualy written any non-comedic fantasy himself, so I get some tall-poppy syndrome vibes.

On #33, Robert Jordan has done far more for fantasy than this David J Parker has ever done to date, not to mention Jordan took the "farmhand chosen one" cliche and on the whole made it work for the millions of people who bought his books.

Its just my opinion of course.

On a sidenote "snarky internet fantasy cliche critics/bashers" are on the verge of becoming cliches themselves. :p

For the record, I answered "yes" to 50 and "sort of" to 4 and 9. I'm researching 47 so I do know how it works.

[eqb]

The Fantasy Novelist's Exam is fun, but my favorite is still Diana Wynne Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

[James D. Macdonald]

Author putting off writing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V16h6Li1jfc) (And you thought we made this up.)

[euclid]

That was a good 'un! The cat seemed to enjoy the experience.

PS Jim, How do you find these? I mean, are you rummaging through U-tube videos all day (iso writing)?

[allenparker]

Author putting off writing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V16h6Li1jfc) (And you thought we made this up.)


At least two people have too much time on their hands
awp

[James D. Macdonald]

It was, in fact, one jump away from an article about book covers. (The article had a link to a Youtube video; the cat vacuuming was a 'related' video which ... well.)

I have a good memory. When I find things, I know where to file them.

[smsarber]

Hey UJ, congrats on Lincoln's Sword! I really enjoyed Land of Mist and Snow, so I look forward to this one.

I've been absent from this thread because I have't done anything novel-related lately. Since the surgeries and long hospitalization I lost track of where I was on the book. Ihave my previous progress printed ou, so I can read it and hopefully get the feeling of it back, then the idea is that it will flow again like it was.

That's the idea. Let ya know if it works. For anyone who doesn't know, I had a lung removed in December. Complications led to bowel surgery 4 days later. I spent 70 days in the hospital, went home for 7, went back for 3, went home for 11, went back for 26, back home for 35, then back for 8. I have one more surgery, to reverse the ostomy, then home free (that's the idea). So I've really been focusing on short stories lately. Hope I can get back into novel-format relatively easily:D.

[euclid]

Good to hear from you Stephen.

I'm working on shorts as well, for other, less dramatic reasons - my daughter is here on a visit from Australia for a month with her husband and twins (14 months).

[Calliopenjo]

Welcome back Stephen. I hope you're doing well.

[smsarber]

Well so far... I'll let ya know how the rest goes.

[James D. Macdonald]

I still owe y'all a big post on how art requires limits.

[smsarber]

Limits? :Wha: But, but, uh... Well crap, that's not what it said in the brochure:roll:

[paritoshuttam]

Uncle Jim,

In my WIP, my plan is to tell the story in alternating POVs (alternating across chapters). So Chapter 1 would be from the main male character's POV, Chapter 2 would be from the main female character's POV, Chapter 3 back to the male, and so on.

A problem I face is that later on, there might be two successive chapters better told through the same character's POV. Do you think that would be OK? Or would the reader be jarred, because he has been expecting the next chapter to switch the other POV? Or should I try to force-fit the plot to adhere to the alternating POVs?

Any advice is welcome. I am still at the rough outlining stage, so I wouldn't be devastated if I had to overhaul the whole structure.

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[RJK]

I wrote a novel with 3 alternating first person POVs. the protagonist, the heroin, and the antagonist. When I came upon the problem you described, I went in one of two ways.

Choice one would be to extend the chapter, making it considerably longer than the others. There's no rule on chapter length.

Choice two, would be to continue with the next chapter, if you can stay on the same subject from the chapter you left, but from the second POV, then get back to your original POV at a convenient point.

[Cliff Face]

What RJK said. I was going to say, "You can make the chapters as long as you like, so why not just chuck in a scene break and carry on with that POV for a bit longer."

But RJK beat me to the punch. :)

[Krintar]

<parts of a story told from the perspective of> the heroin
This sounds like an interesting story.
:tongue

[James D. Macdonald]

Your beta readers will tell you if you're doing it wrong.

[RJK]

This sounds like an interesting story.
:tongue

Not according to a few dozen agents.

[euclid]

On the recommendation of a brother-in-law, who's a mad, fanatical American Civil War expert, I have ordered a copy of "The Killer Angels" by Michael Shaara. Do you know this book, Jim?

[Wil]

Hey James, is it ok that my 1st Novel ends in a MAJOR cliffhanger, I remember way back in volume one how the book must end in a satisfying way?

[allenparker]

On the recommendation of a brother-in-law, who's a mad, fanatical American Civil War expert, I have ordered a copy of "The Killer Angels" by Michael Shaara. Do you know this book, Jim?


I know this book. It is a good read and is a good companion to watching Gettysburg on DVD.

[euclid]

Finished it a few minutes ago. It was an interesting read. The prose is truncated quite a bit, which gives the impression of pace, tension. Reading it is like being slightly out of breath all the time. The descriptions of the battle scenes came across as evenly paced, calm, a surprisingly effective technique.

This account places the blame for the defeat squarely on Robert E. Lee's (broad) shoulders. I expect there are accounts that blame others, like Longstreet, Ewell and Stuart.

[euclid]

Switched on the TV and found the movie, part 1 of 3. What a coincidence!

[allenparker]

Finished it a few minutes ago. It was an interesting read. The prose is truncated quite a bit, which gives the impression of pace, tension. Reading it is like being slightly out of breath all the time. The descriptions of the battle scenes came across as evenly paced, calm, a surprisingly effective technique.

This account places the blame for the defeat squarely on Robert E. Lee's (broad) shoulders. I expect there are accounts that blame others, like Longstreet, Ewell and Stuart.

Lee took the blame. I see it as a tactical error. Lee never should have taken the stand there. Had Lee left Early to hold and draw Mead to the battle, Lee could have circled around the battle and marched straight to Washington.

If Lee had better visuals for the cannon barrage for Pickett's Charge, they may have done better.

Longstreet historically has gotten the blame for defeat, but he actively campaigned for not fighting there. Stuart should have come back to Lee earlier, but he was engaged in a battle of his own. Ewell never had the authority to make any decisions that would have changed the outcome.

But there is plenty of good alternate history fodder in that battle.

[euclid]

Lee was the man in charge, overall. The buck stopped there, so in that sense he had to take the blame. Also, he would never have shifted the blame onto any of his generals.

Where was Stuart? The book never said.

[James D. Macdonald]

Stuart was out running around collecting supply wagons, rather than doing scouting and security.

Way back in LWWUJ Part 1 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=48), I recommended this book, and quoted a bit from it to illustrate a couple of techniques.

I allude to Gettysburg in Land of Mist and Snow. I'd originally planned to have a Gettysburg scene in Lincoln's Sword (going so far as to research the phase of the moon--the moon was full that night), but it didn't fit in the final work.

[RJK]

For you folks doing historical writing, I found this site for calendars (http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1863&country=1). It also shows the dates of each phase of the moon.

[euclid]

Yes, Jim, I loved that scene between Longstreet and Pickett. And your instruction on it has opened my eyes. (as usual)

[Neversage]

Uncle Jim,

So I'm finally done with what expect is the last revision of my book; it has gone to betas for the last round of plot-hole snooping. For the sequel--which I've also been working on for some time--I was toying with ways for new or forgetful returning readers to catch up.

At first I went with short recaps scattered throughout the first two chapters, but that always felt cumbersome to me. Then I tried taking the wrap-up scene from the previous book and putting it in as a properly optional prologue, just in case the reader didn't already know what was going on.

What are your thoughts on this? I think the prologue method looks and works well, but I want to be sure there isn't a good reason not to do it.

Thank you in advance.

[James D. Macdonald]

The only good reason not to use the last scene from the previous book as a prologue is that many (most?) of your readers will skip it.

Why not write the sequel as if it were the only novel you'll ever write? Put in the backstory exactly as you put in the backstory in the first book. It's a sequel, not a two-part novel, right?

Readers need remarkably little backstory. Just tell this story, make it good, and they'll love you for it.

[Neversage]

I do want them to love me. I'll definitely have to see how that line of thinking treats me. Time for another angle.

[Xoggy]

Jim,

I hope this hasn't been answered before, if so, I apologize. My question is how do you stay organized when you are writing? Do you personally outline? Keep note cards?

I feel that organization is one of my key faults when writing. I attempted to outline and have found that my story went a different direction. New ideas keep coming to me while I right and at times I feel like I need to stop writing the story and sit down and really create the world, that way I have a foundation.

Should I continue to write the story or go back and really work on the setting and plot first? I just want to make sure I stay productive. I can be very detailed orientated and I don't want to use this as an excuse to not finish the first draft.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey James, is it ok that my 1st Novel ends in a MAJOR cliffhanger, I remember way back in volume one how the book must end in a satisfying way?


Yes, your book must end in a satisfying way.

Major cliffhangers ... I wouldn't. Intriguing directions for further developments, yes. Fine. But the end of the novel should (in my opinion) be like getting to camp after a long hike. Sure, there are other trails into the bush, but, for now, it's done.

Jim,

I hope this hasn't been answered before, if so, I apologize. My question is how do you stay organized when you are writing? Do you personally outline? Keep note cards?


I write very extensive outlines (about 3/4 the length of the finished novel). I also use file cards (character notes; eye color, etc., as they develop during the writing of the book). File cards keep scenes in order (and can be shuffled to re-arrange the scenes if necessary).

And generally I flow-chart too.

And, I realize that first drafts are still fluid documents. If something changes wildly, go with the new direction to see where it goes.

[Dolohov]

And, I realize that first drafts are still fluid documents. If something changes wildly, go with the new direction to see where it goes.

This is something that I have trouble with: once a draft is on paper/on the screen, I have a much harder time making big changes. Once the piece has found one form, it's harder for me to imagine it in any other form, and so once the first draft is done, I feel like all I do is tinker. Any suggestions for breaking that habit?

[Noah Body]

I write very extensive outlines (about 3/4 the length of the finished novel).

Three-quarters the length of the finished novel? So you have an 80,000 word outline for a 100,000 word book? And in real outline format, not a synopsis?

Damn, guy! That's like writing two books!

[allenparker]

Readers need remarkably little backstory. Just tell this story, make it good, and they'll love you for it.

I discovered something about human kind a few years back that made my opening chapters much better than they had been. I don't know this is an original thought, but it developed in my brain and helped me.

Life is nothing but people coming in in the middle of the scene. They never get the back story unless it is so important that they are willing to stick out like a sore thumb and ask about it. Only the most necessary information need be given. The story itself will reveal the rest.

AND

People will not listen to my old, boring stories that simply dump information on them. If they don't need to know that stuff for the discussion at hand, why bother?

Stupid stuff. But it helped me.

[euclid]

Yesterday I was close to throwing in the towel. Tonight, I saw an interview with Richard Ford on TV, and he has inspired me to press on.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is something that I have trouble with: once a draft is on paper/on the screen, I have a much harder time making big changes.

You make the big changes when it's still an outline.

[James D. Macdonald]

And in real outline format, not a synopsis?

Depends on what you mean by "real outline format" doesn't it? Mine is like telling a friend about a really neat movie I saw last night, with bits of dialog and scenes sketched in. And occasional silly things (like, for no apparent reason, Harry Houdini escaping from a milk jar filled with maple syrup, and the entire saga of Lady Fitzearl, a character from the Circle of Magic series who appeared in a lot of scenes, but never even made it into the finished draft).

Damn, guy! That's like writing two books!

Why not? What did I have to do today that was more important?

[allenparker]

Why not? What did I have to do today that was more important?

Earn enough money to eat and pay my son's tuition. Of course, ymmv.

[Noah Body]

Depends on what you mean by "real outline format" doesn't it? Mine is like telling a friend about a really neat movie I saw last night, with bits of dialog and scenes sketched in. And occasional silly things (like, for no apparent reason, Harry Houdini escaping from a milk jar filled with maple syrup, and the entire saga of Lady Fitzearl, a character from the Circle of Magic series who appeared in a lot of scenes, but never even made it into the finished draft).

So you mean to say you write a big synopsis or treatment, which would be the usual outline method for a screenplay... right? Not a real outline...

I. The Outline
A. Jim Writes His Book
1. Jim sells book, makes millions, Galen blows him a big kiss
a. Jim hires James Patterson to "co-author" his next tome while vacationing in Bora Bora
b. It turns out Patterson can't write, and hires someone else to "co-co-author" the book

[James D. Macdonald]

Publishing Information Sites for Beginning Authors (http://www.marthawells.com/writingguide.htm)

[James D. Macdonald]

Not a real outline...


Oh, the "Outline" as we were taught in high school?

I'm sure that someone, somewhere, uses that roman numeral, capital and small letters, Arabic numbers, yet more roman numerals monstrosity, but I sure don't and I don't think I know anyone who does.

(Actually, I once ran into a writer who used Powerpoint to create an outline, but what they hey, right? Anything to get you through the night.)

For the "real outline," if you used that, I expect that you'd chuck it out before you got to the end of actually writing Chapter One. Things move in writing that only the telling of them will make clear.

But if it works for you, by golly, do it.

[Neversage]

For my outlines, I write a present-tense braindump of the story ideas. It is very raw and broken, but it gets the ideas down and in relative order. Then I start the first draft above the outline text and just write what is in the top paragraph properly. Then I delete the top paragraph, and move to the next one. This was the real writing gradually eats the outlining. I feel like a cow.

Also, I'm a horrible person. I just did something so horrible to one of my characters that my hand actually flew to my mouth in shock as I was writing it. I must be doing that "up a tree and throw rocks at him" thing. The sick part is that I am thrilled to death at how well (I think) the chapter turned out as a result.

[sneaky_squirrel]

Until now I decided to actually write (I despise my lacking motivation)

I am having trouble making an opening scene (When you show the scenery and then proceed to the dialogue), whatever I write looks weird, could it possibly my newbie writing phase where I think everything I write is garbage? or could I be in error?

In the hills at the outskirts of the village, a girl arrives at a poorly built shack.

Also, quick question about that, is the comma not supposed to be there? (I have to get this doubt out of my head where I think there should be a comma, but there is actually no reason for there to be one.

[FOTSGreg]

sneaky, Obviously, I'm not Uncle Jim and I hope he won't mind my butting in.

First, chalk it up to whatever you're comfortable with, but right now it looks like more of an outline of a scene than the opening of a novel or story. You're telling us, not showing us. You tell us the scene opens in the hills. You tell us the hills start at the outskirts of a village. You tell us there's a girl, and finally you tell us there's a poorly-built shack.

Around about this stage I'm putting the book back on the shelf and walking down to the next section.

Now, forgive my wielding a blunt weapon, but I'd open with the girl already in the shack and in the middle of a confrontation of some sort with the shack's owner. You get action and involve the protagonist and the reader in what's going on right away here.

If you absolutely have to open with the girl approaching the shack, show us what the hills look like, what the outskirts of the village smell like, whether or not there are trees and birds, a path to the shack, and even how the poorly-built shack is constructed. In addition, what about the girl herself? What's important about her? What does she look like, what's she wearing, does she appear poor or wealthy, etc., etc. Put yourself and your reader in the scene. Imagine yourself as a stage director running a stage play. You must set the play's scenery and consider what should and should not there when the curtain opens and the actors begin speaking. If you stage manage well enough, your play will be a hit. If not, well... guess what? You get to try again. And again, and again, until you get it right.

When do you know you got it right? Well, publication, an advance, and sales would work well enough for me.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim.

I think I finally got up enough nerve to seek publication for a short I wrote. It still needs work no doubt about that, but I'm going to do it.

:hooray:

[Eddyz Aquila]

Uncle Jim,

Did you ever have thoughts of throwing in the towel and just resigning yourself to a simple day to day job?

[Albannach]

Until now I decided to actually write (I despise my lacking motivation)

I am having trouble making an opening scene (When you show the scenery and then proceed to the dialogue), whatever I write looks weird, could it possibly my newbie writing phase where I think everything I write is garbage? or could I be in error?



Also, quick question about that, is the comma not supposed to be there? (I have to get this doubt out of my head where I think there should be a comma, but there is actually no reason for there to be one.

Is she sweaty? Tired? Breathing hard? Carrying something? Hiding? Anxious?

[James D. Macdonald]

Until now I decided to actually write (I despise my lacking motivation)

I am having trouble making an opening scene (When you show the scenery and then proceed to the dialogue), whatever I write looks weird, could it possibly my newbie writing phase where I think everything I write is garbage? or could I be in error?

O, my very dear friend. You are worrying too much. Write your scene any way you care to, and move on. As to whether or not what you've put on the page today will be the first scene ... is a question best left 'til the second draft. The opening scene may be something that occurs in chapter three, and this scene you're worrying about so much deleted and relegated to your desk drawer. Or you may find that you need to write other chapters that come before, and this scene that you think is the opening is instead an incident in chapter three.

Right now, write. Carry forward. Three hundred odd pages from now, you'll be a better writer and the questions that vex you so much right now will have obvious solutions.



In the hills at the outskirts of the village, a girl arrives at a poorly built shack. Also, quick question about that, is the comma not supposed to be there? (I have to get this doubt out of my head where I think there should be a comma, but there is actually no reason for there to be one.The comma may or may not be there. Later, when you read your entire book aloud, the answer will come to you.

Do not worry about commas now. Yes, try to be as correct as you can. But the stage for putting in a comma in the morning and taking it out in the afternoon comes much, much later.

What you have there is a classic opening, much like pawn to king four: A person in a place with a problem. Carry on.

The only thing that might trouble your sleep is that you're telling your story in present tense. That's okay (even common) for outlines, but not so much for novels. It can be done, and done well. But it is difficult.

Uncle Jim,

Did you ever have thoughts of throwing in the towel and just resigning yourself to a simple day to day job?

Long ago I decided that I would never again work for someone.

Still, health insurance would be nice....



I think I finally got up enough nerve to seek publication for a short I wrote. It still needs work no doubt about that, but I'm going to do it.




Do the work, then send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

Meanwhile, write another story.

[Eddyz Aquila]

Long ago I decided that I would never again work for someone.

Still, health insurance would be nice....


But still, living off doing what you like most has to compensate for the health insurance...

[James D. Macdonald]

But still, living off doing what you like most has to compensate for the health insurance...


Yeah, right up to the moment you get sick or injured.

[Noah Body]

Geez, does this mean we can find you working at The Gap eight hours a week now? :D

[flood]

I've worked for myself for twenty years.

Jim speaks truth.

My family's medical insurance currently runs about $1,400/month for three of us.

Prospective authors, currently enjoying benefits from their employer, need to consider this before cutting loose.

No one in my family is sicker than normal. No one smokes. The only reason I can see is a back surgery a few years ago.

[commasplicer]

Jim,

I think I am late to the party and, I imagine, uninvited, yet I would like to ask you the following question:

Have you ever read your own work--before publication--and said, "That's good."

Thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Have you ever read your own work--before publication--and said, "That's good."



"Damn, that's good!" is where I end up.

But it usually takes some aging in the desk drawer to get there.

[Neversage]

Okay. So I think the book is about ready. Betas have all loved it, and I'm really happy with it. I want to read through it once more for a final check on everything. Should I age it, or just go for it now?

This book has been aged before, but not recently. I am also well under way with its sequel.

[Calliopenjo]

I'm going to throw my penny in and say go for it. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay. So I think the book is about ready. Betas have all loved it, and I'm really happy with it. I want to read through it once more for a final check on everything. Should I age it, or just go for it now?


Okay, read it through once more, then out the door.

After that, the only time you'll rewrite is if an editor says, "I'll buy this if...."

Good that you're working on another book. Less good that it's a sequel. If the first book never sells there won't be a sequel. So write it so it can be a stand-alone.

[Neversage]

One of the reasons for the sequel is that I want to have it under way in the event that the first one does well, so that I'm not scrambling to finish it, and it can be polished. I have plenty of other ideas I can work on, too. Is my concern unfounded?

[James D. Macdonald]

Is my concern unfounded?


The typical book -- isn't typical. So there aren't really any right choices here. My best advice is to write the book you're passionate about.

[Calliopenjo]

Something fun I thought to look through.

National Gallery of Art presents:
Development of the Title Page, 1470–1900

Selections from the National Gallery of Art Library


http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/2010/title/slideshow/index.shtm#

[Neversage]

The typical book -- isn't typical. So there aren't really any right choices here. My best advice is to write the book you're passionate about.

Uncle Jim, this is why I like you. You give me straight up answers that I can do something with; they just communicate to me. Thank you again.

[James D. Macdonald]

Lincoln's Sword (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/lincolns_sword.htm) should be hitting bookstore shelves one month from today.

It's more useful to me if y'all go and buy it off the shelf. It'll encourage bookstores to ... shelve more of 'em.

[Eddyz Aquila]

Lincoln's Sword (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/lincolns_sword.htm) should be hitting bookstore shelves one month from today.

It's more useful to me if y'all go and buy it off the shelf. It'll encourage bookstores to ... shelve more of 'em.

On my ordering list for my birthday (which is 7 days before the release). :)

Uncle Jim,

I'm getting to the moment to submit my first novel to the agents. Let's say, hypothetically, one agent signs me and then wants the second book. I made sure the first one will leave an open door, so to speak. The problem is, I only have the first chapters of the second book but I really want to continue the book from another series. Should I focus on the sequel or on the other book? Which would be best for long term?

[James D. Macdonald]

Let's say, hypothetically, one agent signs me and then wants the second book. I made sure the first one will leave an open door, so to speak. The problem is, I only have the first chapters of the second book but I really want to continue the book from another series. Should I focus on the sequel or on the other book? Which would be best for long term?


That is a question that you should be bringing up with your agent, not with me. Hypothetically, when he/she signs you.

That's because the agent will have your actual manuscript on the table, and will have an idea of where this manuscript can be sold, and whether that house would want another (continuing a potential series.)

While waiting for the potential agent to call, however, I would write an entirely different book. Because what will you do if no agent agrees to represent this book?

[Eddyz Aquila]

While waiting for the potential agent to call, however, I would write an entirely different book. Because what will you do if no agent agrees to represent this book?

Bingo. You answered my question. Thank you. :)

[Neversage]

I thought about your previous two pieces of advice:
1. Make sure you are writing another book as you send off your first, but it is better if it is not a sequel.
2. Write what you are passionate about.

I decided to roll these into one, so I came up with a new, non-sequel story that I am passionate about. It is new territory for me, being quite a departure from what I have been writing for the last few years.

Thanks again for all of your advice.

[jallenecs]

Oh, the "Outline" as we were taught in high school?

I'm sure that someone, somewhere, uses that roman numeral, capital and small letters, Arabic numbers, yet more roman numerals monstrosity, but I sure don't and I don't think I know anyone who does....

But if it works for you, by golly, do it.

I'm going to show my nerd badge now, but I've been known to use the formal roman numeral outline sometimes. If I'm finding a story is getting too convoluted, I'll break out the English Textbook outline structure to get my thoughts organized.

But it's only an occasional thing. Most of the time, my outlines look like a numbered list of paragraphs, one for each scene, very loosy-goosy, with bits of dialogue, parentheticals of "Oh, don't forget to do this," etc.

Like you said, whatever works.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Let's say you placed a 50-page partial, waited the requisite amount of time, asked about the status after that, and was told that the editor was reading it that week. It's now been 2-3 weeks later and still no word Yea or Nay or asking for a full.

What is one to do?

Should I resolve to pass the ms on to the next publisher on the list and simply accept that this one rejected it without comment?

[Michael_T]

Uncle Jim:

Just thought I'd give you a quick thanks (since I'm logged in tonight and usually just lurk). You've given me a lot of advice through other author's questions in your last 10,000 or so posts :P I also want you to know there is no way I'm buying your book from amazon. It's the store for me!

Look forward to it, and it better be good :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Look forward to it, and it better be good

Oh, it is good. Trust me. You'll need to buy ten or twenty copies because it's just that good.

Meanwhile, found elsewhere: http://copperbadge.dreamwidth.org/268487.html

In 1889, a literary agent named J.M. Stoddart, representing the American publication Lippincott's Magazine, sat down to dinner with two young writers in London and asked each of them to submit a novel for publication in Lippincott's.

The results (http://magazinehistory.blogspot.com/2008/11/successful-literary-dinner-lippincotts.html) were:

The Sign of the Four, by Arthur Conan Doyle
The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, Let's say you placed a 50-page partial, waited the requisite amount of time, asked about the status after that, and was told that the editor was reading it that week. It's now been 2-3 weeks later and still no word Yea or Nay or asking for a full.

What is one to do?

Should I resolve to pass the ms on to the next publisher on the list and simply accept that this one rejected it without comment?

It's summer in New York. Nothing will happen until after Labor Day.

[James D. Macdonald]

Incidentally, we're at Readercon (Burlington MA) this weekend.

We have a signing today at 15:00 (3:00 pm) today, and a reading tomorrow at 1430 (2:30 pm).

We'll be reading a chapter from Lincoln's Sword and a chapter from Arkham Ambulance (our work in progress).

[Jake Barnes]

In 1889, a literary agent named J.M. Stoddart, representing the American publication Lippincott's Magazine, sat down to dinner with two young writers in London and asked each of them to submit a novel for publication in Lippincott's.

The results were:

The Sign of the Four, by Arthur Conan Doyle
The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde "

That makes me think of a novel involving Sherlock Holmes and Dorian Gray.

[James D. Macdonald]

That makes me think of a novel involving Sherlock Holmes and Dorian Gray.

Sherlock Holmes in The Case of the Pernicious Portrait.

While John Watson, MD, marries, Sherlock searches for a new roommate. He finds one in Dorian Gray, a handsome young man. They fight crime with style.

When the Martians invade it's up to Sherlock and Dorian to save the Queen.

[James D. Macdonald]

We've put a new cover (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-confessions-of-peter-crossman/11723136) on The Confessions of Peter Crossman over at Lulu.com.

Alas, the on-line version of the cover doesn't look as good as the thing does in its physical-objectitude.

[Jake Barnes]

"While John Watson, MD, marries, Sherlock searches for a new roommate. He finds one in Dorian Gray, a handsome young man. They fight crime with style."

Well that'll get all those rumors started again.

[James D. Macdonald]

Watson: Holmes, let me ask you a question. I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but... there 'have' been women in your life, haven't there?
Holmes: The answer is yes...
Watson: [Watson breathes a sigh of relief]
Holmes: ... You're being presumptuous. Good night.

-- The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066249/)

Meanwhile, for your enjoyment, and for those times when you can't think of the perfect compliment (http://www.madsci.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~lynn/jardin/SCG)....

[Jake Barnes]

Great movie. Never got its due. My favorite line was the one about Tchaikovsky and "Women not his glass of tea."

[allenparker]

Incidentally, we're at Readercon (Burlington MA) this weekend.

We have a signing today at 15:00 (3:00 pm) today, and a reading tomorrow at 1430 (2:30 pm).

We'll be reading a chapter from Lincoln's Sword and a chapter from Arkham Ambulance (our work in progress).


I trust things went well. Some details of the weekend might offer inspiration to the Uncle Jim's Yappy Dog and Pretentious Purple Pony Show, especially the fat balding guy in the left corner.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's a nice typing game. Improve your touch-typing accuracy!

http://dan-ball.jp/en/javagame/typing/

[Procrastinista]

Uncle Jim:

You've suggested that it's helpful at some point while working on a novel to shelve it for a period of time, say, three months. I believe the idea is that then the writer will gain some perspective and be more likely to tell where the pace drags, what doesn't make sense, and so on.

When is the ideal time to give a WIP such a rest?

I suspect many would say I should do so right after I finish my rough draft. But here's the thing. When I finish a rough draft, I've accumulated a large stack of post-its, reminding me of all sorts of neat ideas I want to insert, inconsistencies I want to patch up, and so on.

I wonder if the ideal time to give a WIP a rest might be after I've responded to all my post-its and am actually thinking the work is looking pretty good. Or maybe even wait until I've gotten feedback from my trusted crit group members and have incorporated their suggestions.

[euclid]

Hi Jim. After a month bouncing my two gandchildren on my knee, followed by a period of reflection and some serious reading, I've decided to think about working on my next attempt. I want this one to have emotional impact/payback for the reader and I'm struggling here.

I'm worried about slipping beyond emotion into sentimentality. What should I do to avoid this?

[James D. Macdonald]

When is the ideal time to give a WIP such a rest?



Never before you finish it.

Your "rough draft" may in fact be a "strong outline."

Give it a rest after you've finished making the tweaks you noticed in progress.