Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

[James D Macdonald]

Continued from Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1
(http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710)
======================

It strikes me that there's a need for a thread on the art and craft of writing commercial novels.

To that end, I'd like to start that discussion. I plan to put down my thoughts on the elements of professional-quality fiction. I'll answer questions, and go where ever the discussion leads. I'll do some notes on the business of writing too.

Here are my qualifications for starting this topic:

My bibliography (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/biblio.htm)

A workshop (http://www.sff.net/paradise/) I help teach every year.

My mutant talent is to make my opinions sound like facts.

=============

I have two basic rules: everything that's said should be true, and everything should be helpful.

=============

There's one other thing that needs to be said, McIntyre's First Law: Under the right circumstances anything I tell you can be wrong.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Has it ever been written that someone sat under the mangrove tree?

Somehow it's in the back of my head. I'm thinking I heard it somewhere, but looking up Mangrove trees it's impossible to sit under the Mangrove trees.
Unless you're a fish. :Shrug:

[allenparker]

Uncle Jim,

Has it ever been written that someone sat under the mangrove tree?

Somehow it's in the back of my head. I'm thinking I heard it somewhere, but looking up Mangrove trees it's impossible to sit under the Mangrove trees.
Unless you're a fish. :Shrug:


Decision for Disaster: The Battle of the Bay of Pigs


I think it is still available at Amazon.net

[euclid]

What do you think about this fragment, Jim:

"a thousand small spiders’ webs sparkling in the frosted grass."

Unintentional alliteration? Or just too purple?
Any suggestions how I could de-alliterate it?

[Aggy B.]

"a thousand small spiders’ webs sparkling in the frosted grass."

Unintentional alliteration? Or just too purple?
Any suggestions how I could de-alliterate it?

A little of both, I think. But it might depend on the tone of the rest of the book. As far as de-alliterating goes it's mostly a question of finding appropriate synonyms/alternate descriptors.

A moment of consideration gives me these possibilities:
"A thousand small/tiny/fragile spiders' webs sparkling/twinkling/glittering/glistening/shining in the frosted grass."

Of course, which combination works best depends on overall tone and language in your novel. That's the fun thing about words. You get to play with them to find the best possible combination.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why are you asking me about sentence fragments?

The smallest unit of meaning in the English language is the paragraph.

The question is more properly asked in Share Your Work, as part of an entire chapter.

-------------

I'm certain that someone, somewhere, wrote that a person sat under a mangrove tree. People write a lot of things. I haven't read all of those things, nor have I memorized everything that I've read.

[James D. Macdonald]

Euclid, I've already recommended Mark Twain's Rules of Writing (http://www.mamohanraj.com/Writing/twain.html). I'm going to recommend them again.

[Freelancer]

Uncle Jim. I'd like to ask an advise for the following problem:

In my present WIP there are so many details what I'd like to write into it... or I already did, but unfortunately that made the story to very long (Really long). The major problem with it, most of the details are necessary as they're returning elements and / or giving twists in the storyline. It's a long story with dozens of layers and these details are giving the basics of these layers. Now if I take out one, that sublayer and other layers may collapse. How would you eliminate these things to reduce the size of the novel, while you keep the whole thing intact?

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. I took a shot. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

In my present WIP there are so many details what I'd like to write into it... or I already did, but unfortunately that made the story to very long (Really long).

Have you gotten all the way to THE END?

Have you aged it for a month or three in your desk drawer?

There isn't a mechanical solution to your question. What you have is your art. And I certainly can't answer your question without reading your work. Beta readers (after you're at second or third draft at least) might be able to comment with details.

[Ken Schneider]

UJ, I assume at this juncture of your's and Deb's career that you don't have to query?

If you did, what would the first line of your query sound/look like?

Would it be a one line synopsis?

A paragraph of the back cover blurb type?

Or something else.

Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you did, what would the first line of your query sound/look like?

I'm particularly unqualified to answer that question, since I've never in my life written a query letter.

I've written cover letters (for short stories), but never query letters.

There are many career paths in this profession.

[James D. Macdonald]

I will say that a back-cover-blurb type paragraph is particularly hard to write. My reason for saying this is: I make a small part of my living from writing cover blurbs for other people's novels (publishers hire me to do this; I make about a buck a word to do it). Most back-cover-blurbs written by authors are awful. Inept market-speak is dreadful. And the purpose of a back-cover blurb (to induce a reader to carry the book to the cash register) is different from the purpose of a query.

I've had to do tons of synopses for various novels. These have ranged from one page, to ten pages, to (on one occasion) thirty pages. (And that one was written in one day, and had the folks from the art department at the publisher singing one of the songs* from the synopsis. But that's a story to tell over a beer somewhere.)

One cover letter I once wrote read, in full: "Roses are red/ Violets are blue/ Here is a story / I'm sending to you."

Don't try this at home, kids. I already knew the editor on a personal basis, but (up until then) not on a professional one. (He did buy the story.)


-----------

* ("Did you really put a song in a synopsis?" "Yes, I did.")

[5bcarnies]

I'm particularly unqualified to answer that question, since I've never in my life written a query letter.

I've written cover letters (for short stories), but never query letters.

There are many career paths in this profession.

Care to enlighten?

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as a well, a noisy smart @$$. You opened a door that made my feelers raise a notch. I'm sure their are a dozens ways to get published, query or no, but now I am dreadfully curious about how you got started. What was the first professional leap that led the great James D. Macdonald to where he is now?

[HConn]

UJ, I assume at this juncture of your's and Deb's career that you don't have to query?

If you did, what would the first line of your query sound/look like?

Ken, if you don't mind, I'm going to jump in here.

This is the full text of the query letter I sent to the agent I eventually signed with. Well, not the full text; I've taken out the addresses and stuff.

Dear Ms. Blasdell:

Ray Lilly is just supposed to be the driver. Sure, he knows a little magic, but it's Annalise, his boss, who has the real power. Ray doesn't like driving her across the country so she can hunt and kill people dabbling in dangerous magic, but if he tries to quit he'll move right to the top of her hit list.

But Annalise's next kill goes wrong and she is critically injured. Ray must complete her assignment alone; he has to stop the man who is sacrificing children to make his community thrive, and also find the inhuman supernatural power fueling his magic.

Harvest of Fire is a completed 99,000-word contemporary fantasy in the tone and style of a crime thriller.

I have sold several short stories to the magazines Black Gate and On Spec. The latest is "Eating Venom," due out in the next issue of Black Gate.


Thank you for your time,

Not that "Eating Venom" has come out yet.

For the record, I don't think the credits at the end did anything for me; I'm proud of them, but I'm not publishing my novel under that name (we're dropping the middle name, to be specific).

Also, I shaped the synopsis there to match the recommendations of an agent (Kristen Nelson? She writes a blog called "Pub Rants" and I'm too pressed for time to check right now) who suggested that the query description should set up the world, the characters and the big plot twist that falls on page 30-50.

You can see that in the query--it's all set up. When I wrote a full synopsis, though, I included the ending.

I hope that's helpful.

BTW, on 9/29 I'll be doing a chat on the Suvudu about being a new author and all that good stuff. I'll be interviewed by my editor, Betsy Mitchell, who's the editor-in-chief at Del Rey. All are invited to ask questions or heckle.

Sorry for thread-jacking, UJ.

[RJK]

Harry, Congratulations on your success. I remember seeing your posts early in the Vol 1 thread. I guess you took UJ's lessons to heart.
I checked out your web page and noticed there are no pictures of you. RU shy? or is that a strategic decision?

[James D. Macdonald]

Care to enlighten?


Okay, the way it worked:

There I was in the Republic of Panama, with my rich uncle, Sam. And one time (after having entirely too much fun with a disease called leptospirosis) I wound up in Gorgas hospital, and after that I had two weeks of convalescent leave. (This was the period that Doyle calls "Our worst Christmas ever.")

So, anyway, while I was home on leave....

Well, back up for a moment. There I was in the Republic of Panama, and all the science fiction books were imported by just one importer, Servicio Lewis, and they only got a new shipment once a month, and it wasn't a great selection. So after reading them all there'd be three weeks or so until the next selection. So, in order to have stories of the kind we liked to read, Doyle and I started writing our own, for each other. (The other choices on base were alcoholism, adultery, and amateur theatricals. Writing science fiction seemed sort of a better choice all the way around.)

.... home on leave, I typed up a story about werewolves. This wasn't really a random choice, we knew about an open anthology with the theme "werewolves." So I wrote a story, then Doyle worked it over, then I played with it some, and eventually we sent it off.

And one afternoon while I was down on the boats, Doyle got an international long-distance phone call from the editor saying that a) she wanted to buy the story, and b) it was 8,000 words too long, could we cut it?

So, we did. The story was eventually published and was the lead story in the anthology. (The two places you want to be in any anthology are either the first story, or the last story. Those are the positions of power. That's where the editors put their strongest works.)

Anywho...from there, one fine day while attending a conference, Doyle was approached by an editor from a packager. You have to understand that packagers are folks who are very much like those annoying folks who come up to you and say, "I have a great idea for a book! You write it and we'll share the money!" Except, packagers really do have the money. And they've already sold the idea to a publisher. All they have to do is find the authors. And they trawl through anthologies and such places looking for young authors who've made one or two sales (so they know they can write on a professional level) and pitching them on writing a fast novel. So, we agreed to do this. I figure it was like an intensive course on How To Write A Novel, working with a real editor, and, as an added bonus, they paid us. In advance. Those books came out from Ballantine, under a pseudonym.

I was still in the Fleet at this time. Doyle was living back in the USA by then.
Then the editor asked if maybe we had something else? So we pulled out a bunch of letters that Doyle and I had written to each other (being at sea makes you a real letter-writer) where we'd been just telling stories to each other in a sorta medieval world. These were titled, in our letters, "Yet Another Scene."

We whipped those into shape as the Circle of Magic series, and the packager loved 'em, and they're still in print. At that point we got an agent. Which wasn't too hard to do with two novels in print and a contract for six more in our pocket.

By then I was out of the Navy and living with Doyle in Manchester, New Hampshire. And we figured that if we were going to be writers now was the time to do it, because otherwise I'd have to find a job. So we took a bunch of stories we'd written in Panama, and which had just been lying there (on Atari 5.25" disks) and cobbled them together into a novel. They'd aged around four years by then, and we'd written eight novels (mostly short YA novels, but still), so we'd had a bit of practice, and we put it together and polished it up.

And I mentioned on the Science Fiction RoundTable on GEnie (anyone remember GEnie?) that we'd just finished a novel. And Patrick Nielsen Hayden (who I'd never met, or even heard of at that point), an editor at Tor, wrote and said, "Don't let your agent send your book to anyone before she sends it to me."

So, he read it, and offered to buy it, but only if we wrote two more books in the series. So, I quickly came up with two more plot summaries, about 250 words each, and Tor bought it. It wasn't published as frontlist, or backlist, or midlist, it was published as an "off-list special." And the first printing sold out in the first month, they went back to press, and that book eventually had seven or eight printings.

So we sold what was the first Mageworlds book, and the two sequels turned into four, then six ... and meanwhile, it was up to our agent to sell books, not us. Which all worked out pretty well. The werewolf short story was never reprinted, but it did turn into the first chapter of a YA horror novel, which eventually turned into a trilogy.

The short story didn't need anything more than a cover letter, and from that point on it was editors asking us, not the other way around. (Something about being Locus Bestsellers with every book we wrote probably had something to do with that.)

So that's why we've never written a query letter.

[Blue Sky]

Okay, the way it worked:

...

So that's why we've never written a query letter.

Thanks Jim. Great story! So you mean to tell me you and Doyle were doing what you loved, then continued doing it? Is that legal? :)

[SummerSpring]

Great story! Thanks so much for sharing!!

And I mentioned on the Science Fiction RoundTable on GEnie (anyone remember GEnie?)

This reference made me giggle. While I didn't use GEnie, I knew about it. My dad worked for IBM so we used Prodigy in our house.

[James D. Macdonald]

We totally love what we do, and it's by lucky chance that we get paid (and not too badly, if I say so myself) to do it.

Something that I think helped was that we weren't writing to please ourselves, we were writing to please another person. I was writing to amuse Doyle, and she was writing to amuse me. We had a specific audience in mind.

And the first Mageworlds stories were written to please not only us, but a friend who lived in California and was having a bit of a rough time. We'd send ten pages every week, ending each one with a cliffhanger.

And ... you know about Mary Sue, right? Suppose you write a Mary Sue but the Mary Sue isn't you? Those stories featured the adventures of a young lady who was sort of an idealized and way-competent and adventuresome version of our friend. We were writing a Mary Sue for her. And eventually we gave our heroine a boyfriend who wasn't unlike our friend's husband. And they had adventures together. And it was all good.

I think that may have had something to do with the books selling pretty well. They were written for someone. A story isn't anything without the reader.

Oh, and Doyle and I would sit around the kitchen gossiping about our characters. So that one day our elder daughter (then in Jr. High) asked, when coming home from school and walking into such a discussion, "Are you talking about someone I know, or is this just someone you made up?"

We know lots of things about our characters that don't show up in the books.

[Blue Sky]

We totally love what we do, and it's by lucky chance that we get paid (and not too badly, if I say so myself) to do it.

Chance? Perhaps. Inspiring in any case.

From where I sit, your last two posts and the hints now and then reveal as much of how to write viable commercial prose as anything else here. Feels like a fresh ocean breeze.

When my writing works best, it has always been with a specific person or a few people in mind. Larger audiences "get it"--which always amazes me--because each person is, well, a person. Ha! Imagine that.

I met an author by email when I complimented a book that impressed me. We became friends and now my friend (published author) and I (e-articles only at the moment, one book ever so close to ready) look forward to the next surprise. I find my friend's candor and support priceless, not to mention lots of fun! We like to entertain each other with our comments as well, something you mentioned about your revision process.

[HConn]

RJK: Shy. But if you're really curious... http://www.harryjconnolly.com/blog/?p=328 (Link maker won't work on this computer.)

Uncle Jim, I have been haunting book shops looking to complete the Mageworlds books so I can read them.

eta: would you look at that.

[5bcarnies]

Thank you for that wonderous tale. It was very enlightening. Just when I thought I was bombarded by all the crazy hoops that so many authors told me that I absolutely had to jump through I read your journey and am reminded that anything is possible.

[James D. Macdonald]

Minor brag: Nora here was one of my students at Viable Paradise some years back: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/jemisin_09_09/

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, Something that I think helped was that we weren't writing to please ourselves, we were writing to please another person. I was writing to amuse Doyle, and she was writing to amuse me. We had a specific audience in mind.

There's a secret in there. One should not write to please oneself (except that writing does please oneself and one needs to gain satisfaction from it). Ultimately, one needsto write to tell a story that is pleasing and entertaining to one's audience.

Uncle Jim doth speak truth that few hear in my opinion.

We try to be storytellers. There is no storyteller without an audience. Someone has to like your stories enough to read them (or listen to them).

I can honestly say that I have had people come up to me and say "That was a great story".

That's what keeps me trying to ply this trade rather than succumbing to another mind-drudge day-job.

[blacbird]

One should not write to please oneself (except that writing does please oneself and one needs to gain satisfaction from it). Ultimately, one needsto write to tell a story that is pleasing and entertaining to one's audience.

You'll get a fair amount of dissenting opinion (not from me) in the current "write for self or write to publish" thread.

caw

[FOTSGreg]

That's okay, blacbird. They're welcome to their opinion as am I.

Ultimately, it's not you or me who chooses success for a writer, nor our fellow writers.

Ultimately, it's our readers.

[blacbird]

Ultimately, it's our readers.

You mean . . . that word has a plural form?

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

This is the continuation of Learn Writing with Uncle Jim (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710).

As the original thread approached 10,000 posts (and six years!) it had grown a bit long and cumbersome; slow to load and a drag on system resources every time it loaded. (With over a million views, that's significant.)

So, here we are.

I earnestly entreat everyone to read the entire thread, in order, starting from the very beginning. There's lots there; exercises and advice and my philosophy of commercial writing.

Please see also:

Index to the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim Thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754)

Uncle Jim, undiluted (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987)

[MacAllister]

And we're still having a board-wide birthday party for the Uncle Jim thread, later this fall.

[R.G. Alexander]

Whew, I have gotten to the end at last! There for awhile, I never thought I would. I have gotten alot of great advice from the ever wise UJ. I am looking forward to learning even more. I am going to bed now. :)

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I have a question: What is Purple Prose? I've heard the term before, and it occured to me that I have no idea what it means.

[Chris Grey]

Purple prose is prose that's choking.

I meant that as a joke, but it's actually pretty dead-on. Prose is purple when it is so excessively extravagant that it draws attention to itself.

So, really, purple prose is prose that's choking on itself.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Purple prose" is excessively ornate, complex, and overburdened with modifiers. This can refer to anything from a short bit up to the entire work.

At the point where the readers notice the prose rather than what the prose is attempting to convey, you may be in purple territory.

Snow was falling when Mr Earbrass woke, which suggested he open TUH with the first flakes of what could be developed into a prolonged and powerfully purple blizzard. On paper, if not outdoors, they have kept coming down all afternoon, over and over again, in all possible ways; and only now, at nightfall, have done so satisfactorily. For writing Mr Earbrass affects an athletic sweater of forgotten origin and unknown significance; it is always worn hind-side-to.-- The Unstrung Harp; or, Mr Earbrass Writes a Novel (http://books.google.com/books?id=uQe2a18Ly6wC&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&f=false#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

You can also think of purple prose as, "Hey, look, ma! I'm writing!"

As you can imagine, what is actually "purple" is entirely a matter of taste: "I write vivid descriptions. You write flowery passages. He writes purple prose."

You'll get a fair amount of dissenting opinion (not from me) in the current "write for self or write to publish" thread.


Writing for oneself is an entirely legitimate thing to do.

This thread, however, is all about writing to be published. Commercial fiction.

[euclid]

I have a question: How much of what we're doing/trying to do is:

ART

and how much is:

ENTERTAINMENT (for the reader)

?

[James D. Macdonald]

It's all art, but unless it's entertaining there aren't going to be any readers.

[Salis]

One of my favorite analogies:

Post-Modern Art is Art.

Classical ("The Masters") Art is entertainment.

I vastly prefer the latter.

[James D. Macdonald]

Doyle chimes in: "Purple prose is what you get when you mix red prose and blue prose."

[R.G. Alexander]

:ROFL: Good one!

[Ken Schneider]

Doyle chimes in: "Purple prose is what you get when you mix red prose and blue prose."

There's one book safe from the curse of purple prose.

See Dick Run.
See Jane chase Dick.
See Jane's mom admonish her for chasing Dick.

[James D. Macdonald]

See Tarzan, the Jungle Lord, leap panther-like from a nearby tree to save Jane from Dick. See Jane remonstrate, the well-bred tones of upper-class Baltimore society rounding her vowels, as she attempts to save Dick from Tarzan. See Dick scream in terror as Tarzan pulls back his head to present his throat to N'buma, the keen knife of the hunter! See Tarzan hesitate, the natural nobility of the English Lord causing him to pause before needlessly taking the life of a fellow human! See Jane, eyes welling with tears, turn away, lest she see Dick, her long-lost brother, suffer the fate of Sabor the huge lioness. See Tarzan relent, and offering his hand in friendship to Dick, help him to his feet! See Dick, with that open candor that so characterizes the American working man, take Tarzan's hand in his own, his strong grip and manly visage proclaiming that he, too, possesses the nobility of purpose that so fills the sons of Anglo-Saxon heritage! See the great bull ape, Usota, looking from beneath the dark jungle foliage, evil plans of vengeance upon the Jungle Lord and his friends filling his cunning animal mind!

[Calliopenjo]

You know Uncle Jim, you amaze me. The things you create from the top of your head. It's spellbinding.

This is an article from WSJ.com about fan fiction authors titled: Rewriting the Rules of Fiction. (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115836001321164886-Y0O1DfzuHNEO_UgGUIHFskuFTzM_20061015.html?mod=tff_ main_tff_top)

It's an interesting and enlightening read.

Everybody must start somewhere. Right?

[The Lonely One]

See Tarzan, the Jungle Lord, leap panther-like from a nearby tree to save Jane from Dick. See Jane remonstrate, the well-bred tones of upper-class Baltimore society rounding her vowels, as she attempts to save Dick from Tarzan. See Dick scream in terror as Tarzan pulls back his head to present his throat to N'buma, the keen knife of the hunter! See Tarzan hesitate, the natural nobility of the English Lord causing him to pause before needlessly taking the life of a fellow human! See Jane, eyes welling with tears, turn away, lest she see Dick, her long-lost brother, suffer the fate of Sabor the huge lioness. See Tarzan relent, and offering his hand in friendship to Dick, help him to his feet! See Dick, with that open candor that so characterizes the American working man, take Tarzan's hand in his own, his strong grip and manly visage proclaiming that he, too, possesses the nobility of purpose that so fills the sons of Anglo-Saxon heritage! See the great bull ape, Usota, looking from beneath the dark jungle foliage, evil plans of vengeance upon the Jungle Lord and his friends filling his cunning animal mind!

Hello! I never did get around to writing in the previous Uncle Jim thread; the page count was a bit intimidating. But I just wanted to chime in and say, watching a professional writer work is like going to the circus. They're pulling things off you didn't know were possible (in this case with language, and off the cuff, it seems).

Duly impressed. I can see why someone pays you money to do what you do.

[blacbird]

The Raymond Carver version of Uncle Jim's example:

See Dick.

The Samuel Beckett version of Uncle Jim's example:

See Dick. Don't see Dick.

The Gertrude Stein version of Uncle Jim's example:

See Dick see Dick see Dick see Dick.

caw

[Neversage]

So I've got my book off to beta readers, and one of them commented that a particular character came across as "flat." I always imagined that the character was quiet and reserved, and had a good relationship with the main character, so they didn't need to say much to get along. My beta also said that this character's words and actions contradict one another.

What are some ways to bring a quiet, reserved character to life?

[James D. Macdonald]

What are some ways to bring a quiet, reserved character to life?

Without reading your book? Dunno.

What do the other beta readers say?

In general: Tragic flaws, wants and needs, bits of business.


-----------------

In other news:

Tell your story to the whole world (http://adayontheplanet.com/en/yourday)

Your story must be about something your experienced yourself on 09.09.09

500 words on 09/09/09

[Krintar]

The premise seems a bit dodgy.
If peoples' lives were, on average, worth reading about, we wouldn't feel the need to waste our time reading fiction.

[Neversage]

In general: Tragic flaws, wants and needs, bits of business.


This set my mind down a path that made my day. Thank you, Uncle Jim!

[barbilarry]

Hi Uncle Jim
I would very much like your opinion on a thread I followed last night. "How do you know if you have talent?" Since you are a successful writer and teach workshops I would be interested in what your thoughts are on this question. Would you advise only your talented students to pursue a writing career? Would you also encourage the ones who have passion to write but not a lot of talent. Have you had students in your workshops that made it and went on to have successful writing careers through perseverance but not a great deal of talent. I fall into the second group I fear, but if there is hope for us who lack talent but have passion and love for the craft of writing, I will carry on.
Thanks
Jane

[RJK]

I don't consider myself talented, but when I talk to my friends (the honest ones), they tell me they have no idea how I'm able to do what I do, creating my stories.
Even some of the members of the writing group I attend, tell me they can write non-fiction, relating true stories, but have no idea how to create a story from nothing but an idea.
It may not be much, or unique, but at least I (and you) can do that.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim
I would very much like your opinion on a thread I followed last night. "How do you know if you have talent?" Since you are a successful writer and teach workshops I would be interested in what your thoughts are on this question. Would you advise only your talented students to pursue a writing career? Would you also encourage the ones who have passion to write but not a lot of talent. Have you had students in your workshops that made it and went on to have successful writing careers through perseverance but not a great deal of talent. I fall into the second group I fear, but if there is hope for us who lack talent but have passion and love for the craft of writing, I will carry on.
Thanks
Jane


As it happens, I'd already commented (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4016660&postcount=39) in that thread:

How do you know you have talent as a writer?
You don't.

Even after you have a dozen books in print you're still convinced that at any moment your readers, your editors, the reviewers, the publishers, your family and friends will suddenly realize that you don't have any talent and you've been faking it all along.

If talent, some kind of innate quality that some people have and others don't, is all that it takes, then I'm wasting my time trying to teach people to write.

Talent, whatever you mean by the word, is over-rated. Work, thought, practice, and perseverance are far more important. Fortunately, they're under your control. Talent isn't.

Do you want to look like you have talent? Practice until your fingers bleed. People will say, "Woo! You're talented!"

Only you will know the truth.

[barbilarry]

Uncle Jim

Thank you so much for your answer. If that's what it takes, I'm gonna get there. I am definately willing to do the work. I'll give all the blood it takes to to get to that point. You rock kind sir.
Jane

[barbilarry]

I don't consider myself talented, but when I talk to my friends (the honest ones), they tell me they have no idea how I'm able to do what I do, creating my stories.
Even some of the members of the writing group I attend, tell me they can write non-fiction, relating true stories, but have no idea how to create a story from nothing but an idea.
It may not be much, or unique, but at least I (and you) can do that.

RJK
That has been said to me too. Thank you for including me in your statement. We are both on these threads learning everyday too. That will go a long way getting us to the end of this learning journey and becoming the best writers we can.
Jane

[Neversage]

I once heard something like "talent is focused determination." I believe it.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Why doesn't your thunderstorm serve a function? Every word needs to either support the theme, reveal character, or advance the plot.

(from vol. I)
If every weather report in a piece of fiction specifically functions thematically/characteristically/plottastically, do we not fall afoul of the Pathetic Fallacy?

Have received mixed advice. Trying to synthesize. What do you think?


Also, "See Tarzan Run" is totally inspirational. I love both the short-short form and the various 2nd person POVs, and I really want to do a 400-word vignette in See Dick Run style now. You rock.

[The Lonely One]

A quick question (I'll wait my turn):

Once one has a grasp of the mechanics of writing, and feels they are writing mostly clean prose, what aspects of the inner workings of the industry should one learn first (other than how to write a query)? Are there specific sources of information that will aid one in understanding the various major and some of the minor publishers? The act of "learning the publishing world" seems overwhelmingly businesslike. I flounder here.

What are the most influential business-savvy things to learn about the publishing world? And how much do you actually HAVE to know versus what an agent handles for you?

Only curious as I still haven't got a clue about the folks who buy and sell my work. (I suspect I should fix this.)

[Libbie]

Talent, whatever you mean by the word, is over-rated. Work, thought, practice, and perseverance are far more important. Fortunately, they're under your control. Talent isn't.

Do you want to look like you have talent? Practice until your fingers bleed. People will say, "Woo! You're talented!"

Only you will know the truth.

I worship this quote.

[barbilarry]

I worship this quote.

So do I Libby. I printed it out, framed it and put it beside my computer where I write. I also put RJK's in a frame just so I know someone else is doing the same thing I am.

Jane

[Delhomeboy]

I like how my Creative Fiction teacher put it--that everyone has some talent, and some have more than others, but you never know how much you can maximize it until you, to quote UJ, practice until your fingers bleed.

[James D. Macdonald]

If every weather report in a piece of fiction specifically functions thematically/characteristically/plottastically, do we not fall afoul of the Pathetic Fallacy?


No.

The Pathetic Fallacy is assigning human emotions to inanimate objects (e.g. the angry clouds).

I'm suggesting making all the details point in one direction (e.g. the green light on the pier in East Egg in The Great Gatsby, as opposed to a white light, a red light, or not mentioning a light at all.)

[blacbird]

I believe that work, thought, practice and perseverance are more important than getting caught up in those things, but without my strengths I'm lost. Am I reading this wrong?

Maybe.

caw

[Aggy B.]

I've been reading this thread for months now, and this is the first thing that's disturbed me. The only reason I read and study writing is because I believe I am talented. I have a way with words, I'm funny and I tell great stories, If I can't accentuate those, or control them as you say, I'm wasting my time.

I believe that work, thought, practice and perseverance are more important than getting caught up in those things, but without my strengths I'm lost. Am I reading this wrong?

I read UJ's comment to mean that work can only improve on whatever talent (big or small) you/one has as a writer. It's better to simply focus on the work (which can be measured) than to depend on some much-less-reliably-quantifiable talent.

In other words (because it is three in the morning and my brain is rapidly shutting down), learning how craft a sentence/paragraph/chapter/novel can only help accentuate your talent.

I think I just said exactly the same thing twice. That's why my true "talent" is to revise in later drafts. :) Or maybe that's a skill.

[James D. Macdonald]

The only reason I read and study writing is because I believe I am talented.

The person with preternaturally good eyesight may find it easier to become a marksman. This is good. But it is not sufficient.

Did someone start half-way up the ladder? Excellent! But that doesn't mean that climbing is unnecessary.

[James D. Macdonald]

Once one has a grasp of the mechanics of writing, and feels they are writing mostly clean prose, what aspects of the inner workings of the industry should one learn first (other than how to write a query)?

I'm not sure there are any that you need to know. Pay attention to the publisher's colophon on the books you read. Not all publishing houses are the same. Developing an appreciation for the strengths (and distribution!) of the various publishers may help you decide where to query and submit.


Are there specific sources of information that will aid one in understanding the various major and some of the minor publishers? The act of "learning the publishing world" seems overwhelmingly businesslike. I flounder here.

What are the most influential business-savvy things to learn about the publishing world?

Printing is not publishing. If publicity worked any less well or less often no one would bother with it at all. And don't be an idiot with money. Treat every nickel as if it were the last you're ever going to get.


And how much do you actually HAVE to know versus what an agent handles for you?

You don't have to know anything more than who the good agents are. And you have to read widely (but you're doing that anyway, right?) You ought to know enough to know if the agent is screwing you over.

Only curious as I still haven't got a clue about the folks who buy and sell my work. (I suspect I should fix this.)

The readers buy your work. The rest is interesting, but not entirely necessary.

[HConn]

I want to weigh in on "talent."

It seems to me that talent is the ability to accurately predict the effect your writing will have on a reader. Is a particular chapter supposed to break your heart over the protagonist's unrequited love? Is it supposed to be a thrilling scene of a confidence scheme gone wrong? Do (most) readers read it that way?

That's talent. And the more subtle and complex the reactions you can create, the more talented you're perceived to be.

I strongly suspect that talent is thought of as a natural ability because some people have a natural affinity to language and a knack for picking up on social give and take. But this is definitely something a writer can learn.

IMO, anyway.

And that Tarzan, Dick and Jane story was fantastic! I only wish I'd thought of it.

[R.G. Alexander]

I just finished my story for this project. Thanks for recommending it Uncle Jim. It's the first thing I have written in 6 years. I posted it on SYW if anyone is interested. I would love some crits. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154570

[James D. Macdonald]

I just finished my story for this project.

Go, you! To be a writer, write.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

The Pathetic Fallacy is assigning human emotions to inanimate objects (e.g. the angry clouds).

I'm suggesting making all the details point in one direction (e.g. the green light on the pier in East Egg in The Great Gatsby, as opposed to a white light, a red light, or not mentioning a light at all.)
A-ha. That makes sense. Thank you for clearing that up!


As for talent... What I think is, nothing that so encourages continued practice as the pleasure of competence and success. We get that positive feedback quicker and more often in those fields in which we've got "talent." But that makes talent a shortcut, not a requirement; I believe we can succeed at anything at all. And eventually the head-start of talent runs out and we have to work just as hard as anyone else to keep moving.

"That's my story and I'm stickin' to it."

[James D. Macdonald]

If talent starts you part-way up the ladder, remember that the ladder is infinitely high.

[smsarber]

Doyle chimes in: "Purple prose is what you get when you mix red prose and blue prose."

Just the answer I was looking for. I have the feeling purple, or whatever color suits the taste, prose and writing to be published depend greatly on the genre. I could see where it would fit into romance or hard-boiled detective novels. It might not have much of a place in historical fiction, but small smatterings could work in the thriller/horror market. My opinion, of course.

As always, what works works.

[smsarber]

The person with preternaturally good eyesight may find it easier to become a marksman. This is good. But it is not sufficient.

Did someone start half-way up the ladder? Excellent! But that doesn't mean that climbing is unnecessary.
And while climbing is half the battle, it can be lots of fun, as well.

[maestrowork]

Talent surely starts you halfway up the ladder and it still takes work to get all the way up there, and if you're not careful, you may fall. But some people are just so darn good at climbing the ladder that by the time the other folks are on the third rung, they'd be on the 18th already.

Some people are just smarter, more intuitive, have better ability to learn and excel, etc. etc. Blame it on genetics or whatever, but life isn't fair.

Still, like Michael Chabon said, there are three things that determine success: talent, luck, and discipline. You only have control over discipline, and hope you have the other two.

[euclid]

Hey Jim,

In the last pass through my manuscript I removed 296 adverbs!
It's amazing how often the womenfolk in my book cried quietly or wept silently.

[Perle_Rare]

It's amazing how often the womenfolk in my book cried quietly or wept silently.

Which leads me to wonder why your womenfolk have to cry or weep so often...

[euclid]

Which leads me to wonder why your womenfolk have to cry or weep so often...

You'll just have to read the book when (if) it comes out!

:ROFL:

[James D. Macdonald]

Which leads me to wonder why your womenfolk have to cry or weep so often...

It's because their husbands are old and can no longer dance.

[SarahMacManus]

Talent surely starts you halfway up the ladder and it still takes work to get all the way up there, and if you're not careful, you may fall. But some people are just so darn good at climbing the ladder that by the time the other folks are on the third rung, they'd be on the 18th already.

Some people are just smarter, more intuitive, have better ability to learn and excel, etc. etc. Blame it on genetics or whatever, but life isn't fair.

Still, like Michael Chabon said, there are three things that determine success: talent, luck, and discipline. You only have control over discipline, and hope you have the other two.

I have to agree. Some people are simply neurologically built in a way where they're more adept at written language. Some people are anatomically built in a way that's perfect for ballet.

But both writers and dancers need to practice and be determined to master the craft involved with their "talent".

[euclid]

It's because their husbands are old and can no longer dance.

You've read my book! :)

[MtPansy]

So a month ago or so, my computer died and I lost my everything. Since I've only started seriously writing recently, it wasn't that much. I didn't lose my outlines, either, because I write those in hardcopy. The thing that concerns me the most is that I lost my almost complete WIP. The lesson learned here, or course, is always backup. A flash drive has since been aquired.

My dilemma here is that I have lost all desire to rewrite the story (it won't be as good, what if I don't remember everything, etc.) and this has made me stall on my other projects as well.

The question is this: should I drop this project in favour of new exciting ones, or force myself to finish it (as it's basically finished, if only in my head)?

I should mention that it would top out at around 8000 words, and my other projects have novel potential.

If this is in the wrong place, feel free to kick my butt.

[James D. Macdonald]

8,000 words? That's 32 pages. That's six hours' typing if all you can manage is 20 words per minute.

Sit down. Rewrite it from memory. It'll be better. Promise.

Robert Louis Stevenson re-wrote Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde from memory. You can do the same sort of thing.

[The Lonely One]

Uncle Jim I'll be attending the Sanibel Island Writer's conference this year and will have a one-on-one conference with a writer I admire, John Dufresne.

The thing about these conferences is I go to learn from other authors, read and write extensively, and enjoy the nighttime readings, etc.

So many writers mention "marketing yourself" at these things (bringing flyers and all), but I'd feel like I'm selling vacuums or used cars and I'd have to shower after each encounter. I don't feel comfortable building contacts this way--and honestly I don't think it would work.

Have you experienced either side of this dilemma? Does it seem pushy or insulting for a writer to approach an editor or agent with their work at a conference?

And is it okay for me to not interact in this way? I feel I know who I am and think my writing aught to stand contacts be damned. But I don't really know what the right approach is.

Words of wisdom appreciated :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, goodness. There are horror stories. Editors hiding in the men's room to escape authors with manuscripts. Authors following the editors into the men's rooms to give them their manuscripts.

No, you don't have to to the Used Car Salesman thing.

Editors don't want to go home with six hundred pounds of manuscripts in their luggage. If they're interested in something you've written, they'll ask you to send it to them at their work address when you get home.

So, how do you get them interested? By being yourself. Talk about what you're interested in. Be interesting. If someone remembers you as the smart, funny guy who could hold up his end of a conversation and paid attention to what others thought and said ... that's good.

You might carry business cards. What does a business card have on it? As little as possible. Your name and contact information, and the whole back clean, white, and blank to write down the subject you were just talking about. Get their business cards, and a couple of days later, drop them a note saying, "I met you at _____ where we talked about ____. Is _____ still open?" or whatever. Business cards are not laser-cutout, embossed-and-foiled, full-color representations of what you'd like the cover of your first book to look like, with your name in 36-point Post-Crypt font printed in scarlet enamel under the step-back, with instructions for making a working origami helicopter printed on the back.

"Hey, how's it goin'?" will get you a lot farther than "Let me tell you about my booooook!"

Be yourself, be natural, be interested in others, be interesting on your own, and listen to the shop-talk. You will learn much.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Do different genres follow different trends? For example romance. I found out recently (last night as a matter of fact) that deep third POV is the new trend. This came from a forum that focuses on romance and not so much others.

Would it be wrong to stick to what you're comfortable with? Or learn the new trend?

Your opinion? Any opinion? :Shrug:

[R.G. Alexander]

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald;4032169]Oh, goodness. There are horror stories. Editors hiding in the men's room to escape authors with manuscripts. Authors following the editors into the men's rooms to give them their manuscripts.QUOTE]

I just got the image of some poor guy standing on the toilet, sweating, and mumbling "Go away, go away, go away," while an author is waving her manuscript over the door, "Read it, it's great, it's the new Harry Potter, I SWEAR!"

[James D. Macdonald]

I just got the image of some poor guy standing on the toilet, sweating, and mumbling "Go away, go away, go away," while an author is waving her manuscript over the door, "Read it, it's great, it's the new Harry Potter, I SWEAR!"

That is lots closer to the reality than you think.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do different genres follow different trends?

All genres (including "literary," which is just another damn genre) have their own conventions, their own reading protocols, their own assumptions.

That's why you're constantly reading new works in your favorite genre.


Would it be wrong to stick to what you're comfortable with?

Why would this ever be wrong? (Other than that you aren't growing new writerly muscle.)


Or learn the new trend?

Why not? Play with everything you know. How can it be wrong? Professional magicians may have a favorite card force, but they know a dozen different card forces in order to be able to select the best one for the circumstances. And, in case the force fails, they know another direction to take the trick so that the audience is still entertained.

Only you can decide the best way to tell your story. Your decision will be based on your experience. What you can do will be influenced by the tools you've packed into your tool box.

[Calliopenjo]

Thank Uncle Jim. You helped clarify a few things for me. :Hug2:

PS. I switched to 3 because 4 was too big. Sorry if it bothered anyone.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim and everyone, please check out this link,

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/CrowningMomentOfAwesome?from=Main.CrowningMomentOf Awesome

If only for positive amusement value.

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

For our sins, Doyle and I have been mentioned on TVTropes:

Hyperspeed Escape (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.HyperspeedEscape)
Apocalyse How (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow)
Virgin Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.VirginPower)

I'm not sure whether to be pleased because it's so few, or sad because it's so few.

Pleased, because I do try to avoid cliches.
Sad, because hey, fame is nice and who doesn't want to be read and loved and quoted?

Speaking of quoted, Doyle is quoted here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/ScienceFictionVersusFantasy). (The thing about purple prose being when you mix red and blue prose is so typically her. She's saying things like that all the time. Doyle is smart, clever, witty, fast, sharp, wicked, and has a dynamite prose style. I don't know how I got so lucky.)

[euclid]

Couldn't find you in Apocalypse How. What class of apocalypse are you in?
Couldn't find Cormac McCarthy's The Road in there either.
Or Waterworld.
It's just not my day for finding things!

[James D. Macdonald]

From Apocalypse How (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow):

In the backstory of the Mageworlds books by Debra Doyle, this happens to Entibor.

(We also had a world-destroying plague mentioned (what happened to Sapne) in The Long Hunt, and I had the traditional Seven Seals Apocalypse threatened in The Apocalypse Door.)

Waterworld has its own page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Waterworld), as does The Road (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRoad).

[R.G. Alexander]

I just finished the first chapter of my book! Wooooooo. Who is excited, I am excited. Plus I found out two of my minor chars are in love. Who knew? Ain't fictional love grand? :) I may have drank to much coffee today.

[euclid]

Hey Jim,

I'm thinking about writing a novel (partly) set amongst a primitive people in Namibia.

I've never visited Namibia. I've never been in any part of Africa.

Given the information available on the Internet and in books, extensive research is possible nowadays, but it is daft to think about doing this? Stephen King (On Writing, p181) says:

"The dictum in writing classes used to be 'write what you know.' Which sounds good, but what if you want to write about starships exploring other planets or a man who murders his wife and then tries to dispose of her body with a wood-chipper?"

[James D. Macdonald]

You want to write a book, Euclid? Do so. Set it anywhere, any time. Research the fudge out of it, then leave 90% of the research lying in your notes when you write (rather than on the pages of the novel where it'll make the readers suspect there'll be a quiz at the end of the chapter).

[James D. Macdonald]

Novels are about people.

Novels are not about places. Novels are not about objects. Novels are not about events.

Novels are about people.

[SarahMacManus]

You might carry business cards. What does a business card have on it? As little as possible. Your name and contact information, and the whole back clean, white, and blank to write down the subject you were just talking about. ...
Be yourself, be natural, be interested in others, be interesting on your own, and listen to the shop-talk. You will learn much.

What are those sheets that some authors are doing now? Sort of like a one-page synopsis & business card... "One Sheets"? Something like that?

[smsarber]

Novels are about people.

Novels are not about places. Novels are not about objects. Novels are not about events.

Novels are about people.
And can't that be so EASY to forget! Of course, you still need the places, objects, and of course the events that glue the people to those places and objects (Krazy Glue, in my case). But I love it when you put it out there in such simple terms. Novels are about people--I may get that tattooed on my butt!

[Izz]

Novels are about people--I may get that tattooed on my butt!Tattooing it there might make it a bit hard to read when you need to remind yourself, mightn't it?

[James D. Macdonald]

What are those sheets that some authors are doing now? Sort of like a one-page synopsis & business card... "One Sheets"? Something like that?

A one-sheet is a one-page summary. It's part of a press kit. Something short enough that a busy person can read it quickly, yet detailed enough that an interviewer can sound like he/she has read your book and won't sound like a doofus on the air.

It isn't important.

The only thing that's important is writing a good book.

[Calliopenjo]

The thing to include in that good book is an opening that people won't forget.
:e2writer:

[James D. Macdonald]

The thing to include in that good book is an opening that people won't forget.

And an ending that surprises and satisfies, and a middle that keeps them turning the pages....

[blacbird]

And an ending that surprises and satisfies, and a middle that keeps them turning the pages....

And good stuff in between.

caw

[smsarber]

Tattooing it there might make it a bit hard to read when you need to remind yourself, mightn't it?


Yeah, but I thought I'd put it right next to my brain... it'll seep in through osmosis;)

Uncle Jim, do you always know when an idea is novel-length, or do you sometimes have an idea that either ends up short-story length, or 150,000 words but you expected it to go the other way? I've always tried to set the length I want a piece to be in my mind before I write it, and when I get to writing it, keep it in the confines I first imagined as far as length. Doesn't always work, but I'm still a bit new at this, only writing for a bit less than 4 years.

[Calliopenjo]

I said that because I was recently nailed on my beginning of the story I've been working on for about 3 years now. My gamble didn't pay off. Back to the drawing board.

[Delhomeboy]

Uncle Jim, I have short fiction question: What in the world is "speculative fiction." It says on Wikipedia that it overlaps different genres...but what makes it, therefore, different than "cross-genre" fiction.

[Izz]

Uncle Jim, I have short fiction question: What in the world is "speculative fiction." It says on Wikipedia that it overlaps different genres...but what makes it, therefore, different than "cross-genre" fiction.I'm not Uncle Jim, and could very well be wrong, but i've always thought speculative fiction to be an all-encompassing term for science-fiction, fantasy and horror, as well as all the in-between or, in other words, anything that contains a 'speculative' element.

[lauraannwilliams]

Uncle Jim, I would like to suggest a variation on your classic three-point plot outline:

Y'all know the three-point-plot outline:

1.) Get the hero up a tree.
2.) Throw rocks at him.
3.) Get him out of the tree.

Specifically, adding the following:

At the same time:
1.) Put the villian up a tree
2.) Throw rocks at him
3.) Have the tree crush him

Thinking of it this way is helping me a bit with my current WIP. I'm finding it easy to think of ways a story is started off by things going wrong for the villian first ( someone finds the body too early (or jessica fletcher shows up ), a minion spills the beans, they get stabbed trying to kill someone and leave a blood trail, essential piece of equipment falters, monster gets loose )

It's a bit tricky, on the one hand coming up with rocks that can be dodged and on the other hand using them to batter down the tree, but it's helping me not write 'meanwhile, everything was going perfectly down in Bad Guy HQ'.

[HConn]

Uncle Jim, I have short fiction question: What in the world is "speculative fiction." It says on Wikipedia that it overlaps different genres...but what makes it, therefore, different than "cross-genre" fiction.

"Speculative fiction" is a term used by people who are sick of arguing about what is sf and what is fantasy.

It also has the connotation of being science fiction after it's combed its hair and put on a clean shirt.

[RJK]

Laura Ann, before you throw too many rocks at the villain, you should review the Evil Overlord's list. (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) This is the list of things he pledges not to do. It will improve your story greatly.

[Ken Schneider]

Here's a little tidbit that I thought about the other day.

Take it for what you think it's worth.

Let us speculate that you want to kill off one of your major characters. You wait and write and wait and write saying to yourself, I know I have to kill someone but I don't want to do it, yet!

Well, kill H/H early in the book, after establishing them as a viable major character.
Why?

In my thinking, your reader will then be on edge about who dies next.

Take away the feeling of saftey for your characters, early.

No one else has to die, but the reader doesn't know that.


You might find you like knocking them off.

[maestrowork]

Laura Ann, before you throw too many rocks at the villain, you should review the Evil Overlord's list. (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) This is the list of things he pledges not to do. It will improve your story greatly.


Sometimes the villain wins. The tree crushes the hero instead.

If it works, it works.

Keep the tree and the rocks, but the ending can be anything... surprise me!

[James D. Macdonald]

Speculative fiction is science fiction wearing a three-piece suit.

Science fiction and horror are both sub-groups of fantasy.

No, fantasy need not have elves, dragons, or magic.

What is fantasy? It's what fantasy readers point at when they say, "This is Fantasy."

(At one time science fiction was what Damon Knight said was science fiction. Since Damon died no one knows what's science fiction.)

[James D. Macdonald]

In Case of Emergency Break Glass:


42 Essential Third-Act Twists (http://dresdencodak.com/2009/05/11/42-essential-3rd-act-twists/)

Yo, and Wayne? Don't let a manuscript sleep over. Send it out again, right now (assuming you haven't already) to the next place on your list.

It's perfectly okay to mutter the ritual phrase in the direction of the place that sent the rejection: "Your loss, guys."

[lauraannwilliams]

Laura Ann, before you throw too many rocks at the villain, you should review the Evil Overlord's list. (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) This is the list of things he pledges not to do. It will improve your story greatly.

I'm going to write an evil overloard monologue scene. I have no intention of -keeping- the monologue scene, but it should be fun to write.

[James D. Macdonald]

See also:

Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/overlord/)

[ricmic]

Talking about plot generators: Here's a nice Crazy Conspiracy Mad-Lib. (http://www.slate.com/id/2228327/) for the ones striving to write like Dan Brown. It doesn't look that difficult, does it?

[Krintar]

Talking about plot generators: Here's a nice Crazy Conspiracy Mad-Lib. (http://www.slate.com/id/2228327/) for the ones striving to write like Dan Brown. It doesn't look that difficult, does it?
I sense a major grudge against head docents.

[James D. Macdonald]

Can I type the first chapter of a good book from a book on tape?


I wouldn't know why not.

[euclid]

See also:

Evil Overlord Plot Generator (http://nielsenhayden.com/overlord/)

Tried that. What is a "browser reload button"?

You can hit your browser's Reload button for another set of plot ideas, though that's not the point of the exercise.

[euclid]

Talking about plot generators: Here's a nice Crazy Conspiracy Mad-Lib. (http://www.slate.com/id/2228327/) for the ones striving to write like Dan Brown. It doesn't look that difficult, does it?

That's clever, ricmic. I wonder if I could adapt the principle to Berlin during WWII. :)

[bettielee]

Tried that. What is a "browser reload button"?


Reload = Refresh

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay Uncle Jim, one more question: Am I supposed to be picking up the keyboard and slamming it down an hour in? (I'm emotional)

No.

And (okay two questions) Am I supposed to feel stupid?

No. You're supposed to become enlightened. This may take time.

[ricmic]

I wonder if I could adapt the principle to Berlin during WWII. :)

I don't see why not as long as you don't forget to whack the head docent.

The Forgotten Enigma
A mysterious code in the monuments of Berlin.
A nefarious cult determined to protect it.
A frantic race to uncover the NSDAP's darkest secret.

When celebrated Harvard symbologist Robert Langdon Sr. is summoned to the Olympiastadion to analyze a mysterious rune – drawn onto a beer mat next to the mutilated body of the head docent – he discovers evidence of the unthinkable: the resurgence of an ancient cult of the Thule-Gesellschaft, a secret branch of the NSDAP that has surfaced from the shadows to carry out its legendary vendetta against its mortal enemy, the Vatican.

Langdon's worst fears are confirmed when a messenger from the Thule-Gesellschaft appears at the Deutsche Staatsoper to deliver a fateful ultimatum: Hand over the Shroud of Turin, or the exclusive clothier of the Swiss guard will be forced to tailor SS-uniforms. With the deadline fast approaching, Langdon joins forces with the Wagnerian and straight-faced daughter of the murdered docent in a desparate bid to crack the code that will reveal the cult's secret plan.

Embarking on a frantic hunt, Langdon and his companion follow a 821-year-old trail through Berlin's most sacred barracks and venerable beer gardens, pursued by a single-nosed assassin the cult has sent to thwart them. What they discover threatens to expose a conspiracy that goes all the way back to Adolf Hitler and the very founding of the NSDAP.

[bearilou]

There is no way to explain the depth and breadth of my love for this forum right now. None.

Back when I first realized 'hey, I can write and be pretty damn good at it', a good friend pointed me in the direction of this forum. I read through Uncle Jim's long thread and then through the Reader's Digest version twice. I followed his advice to pick up Logical Chess: Move by Move. I mean, if Uncle Jim suggested it, it had to have some relevance, right? He even said so!

Except, I didn't see the relevance. It's a book about chess. About chess moves. I play chess (albeit probably not very well, I lose a lot) but not seriously enough, I guess, because the book sat on my shelf. I stared at it every day. It made it to my active bookshelf through two household moves but I still hadn't bothered to even peer inside at the table of contents.

I knew intellectually that a book on the theory of chess could help (maybe) but this was a book filled with chess moves! How could reading a book on chess moves possibly have relevance to plots?

At this moment I wish to officially kick myself (and open myself for public nose-tweaking) for not cracking this book open much sooner; for not truly and deeply trusting in Uncle Jim's advice and trying to read and understand. Perhaps I wasn't ready until now (after a third household move) to heed the wisdom, who knows?

In any event, I have read the first game. Not just skimmed it, as would be tempting with all that technical jargon, I set up a chess board and played the game, following Chernev's discussion on how of all the options to choose from for every move, why one was better than all the others, how some were weak and put you at a disadvantage, and how the one, strong move put pressure on the opponent.

And why it did.

My brain blossomed with the possibilities presented before me and my butt couldn't hit the chair fast enough to start writing.

I expect my chess game will improve as I keep reading, too.

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I'll do better about listening and following through from now on.

*presents nose*

[James D. Macdonald]

*Tweak!*

Did you pick up Magic and Showmanship yet?

[Frankie]

Trying to work on an outline, but on an emotional comedown from the meds they gave me in hospital (had day surgery on my knee). Should I continue in my head-biting-off mood, or take some more strongish painkillers, or wait it out?

[James D. Macdonald]

Painkillers. Definitely.

Meanwhile, just heard today that Eos has accepted our latest Civil War fantasy. So, hurrah!

They want to give it a different title from the ones we suggested. Hey, if the marketing guys think some other title will sell more copies, I'm not too proud to let 'em sell those copies.

[Izz]

Meanwhile, just heard today that Eos has accepted our latest Civil War fantasy. So, hurrah!

They want to give it a different title from the ones we suggested. Hey, if the marketing guys think some other title will sell more copies, I'm not too proud to let 'em sell those copies.Congrats! :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's a bit from that work. (It's near the beginning. It was originally the start of chapter one, but it isn't any more.)

Kevin Mulcahey was carrying a torch in his hand when he found the dead Rebel, even though it was broad daylight.

He was alone on a road in Belmont, Missouri, the rest of his squad being likewise engaged in burning the Rebel camp; a waste of perfectly good food, thought Kevin.
But in the manner of the Army the General had told the Colonel to burn everything, the Colonel had told the Major, the Major had told the Captain, and so on until the Sergeant told Private Mulcahey, and, there being no one further to tell, the deed must be done by himself and his mates.

The Rebel wore an officer's uniform: a Major in the 11th Louisiana. He had a bullet hole in his left breast and another in his left temple. He was dead and no mistake.

This wasn't the first dead man that Kevin had ever seen and he knew exactly what to do. He approached the dead Major and made a cross on what was left of his forehead, saying "Into Thy hands I commend thy spirit."

Kevin had studied for the priesthood in Ireland before he decided that if he was going to sleep with a woman he wanted to marry her and that he was of a mind to someday sleep with a woman, and so had shipped on a packet, jumped ship in New York, and made his way to Chicago, where he made a living carving tombstones.
At the commencement of hostilities he joined the 27th Illinois Infantry for lack of better to do, which brought him eventually to this dusty road on the seventh of November of 1861.

Having given a benediction, Kevin looked more closely at the Rebel. The dead man had a sword in his right hand, the blade smeared with blood.

"Gave as good as ye got, did ye?" Kevin said, and pulled the sword from the man's grip. Then he unbuckled the swordbelt to take the scabbard and patted down the Major's pockets for tobacco or gold; either would serve.

Neither were present -- only a fistful of letters, some Confederate scrip, and naught else. Mulcahey was standing there still when Sergeant Dusselman, a Pennsylvania Dutchman who had worked in a butcher shop in Cicero until the war came along, shouted, "Mulcahey, you damned Mick! Quitcher gawkin', man, and look lively. We're pulling out. Back to the assembly, damn your eyes," then passed on along the line, shouting curses and imprecations to the others in the squad as he went. "We're on the boat out of here in jig time, damn you all, or you'll be left behind and no sorrow to me."

With that Private Mulcahey trotted off the road, put his torch to a hayrick, then headed north toward the rest of his regiment. To the south the rattle of musketry told him that the Rebels were coming again. Across the river the booming of the water battery at Columbus increased in tempo.

This is first draft. At the time I wrote that I only knew in general terms what would happen in the book. Who eventually turned out to be the main character was a complete surprise to me.

[Izz]

Who eventually turned out to be the main character was a complete surprise to me.The dead Major?

Hmmm...

Are there any zombie Civil War books out there yet?

[Terie]

Are there any zombie Civil War books out there yet?

Well, duh. Haven't you heard of GONE WITH THE WIND AND ZOMBIES??? ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

My favorite piece of advice is "Be teachable"

My favorite is "If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid."

[euclid]

Jim,

How many civil war fantasies have you written/published?

[James D. Macdonald]

This will be my second.

[James D. Macdonald]

Are there any zombie Civil War books out there yet?

You might check out The Elopement by Joe Lansdale or History is Dead edited by Kim Paffenroth.

[euclid]

What was the first Civil War Fantasy called?

I see The Confessions of Peter Crossman have a "teen" tag. Does this mean the book is YA?

[HConn]

What was the first Civil War Fantasy called?


Jumping in...

Land of Mist and Snow (http://www.sff.net/people/Doylemacdonald/Mistsnowhead.htm)

[James D. Macdonald]

What was the first Civil War Fantasy called?

I see The Confessions of Peter Crossman have a "teen" tag. Does this mean the book is YA?

No, it means that it isn't for children. Not because of sex or bad language, but because some of the concepts are complex, and there is some strong violence.

Someday you should look to see what genuine teens are reading: Regular novels. YA is more your ten/eleven/twelve year olds.

The way I think of it:

Children's is anything up to about eight years old.
Middle grades is eight/nine/ten.
Young Adult is ten/eleven/twelve.
Adult is thirteen and up.

Mostly guided by what the reader is interested in.

[Fillanzea]

No, it means that it isn't for children. Not because of sex or bad language, but because some of the concepts are complex, and there is some strong violence.

Someday you should look to see what genuine teens are reading: Regular novels. YA is more your ten/eleven/twelve year olds.



The genuine teens I know are mostly reading manga.

(YA Librarian, here).

YA has changed a lot even in the last ten years or so. I would not give "The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation" to a twelve-year-old, nor "Looking For Alaska," nor "Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist," nor "Tender Morsels," nor Patricia McCormick's "Sold," nor any of Ellen Hopkins's books, nor my own "A Love Story Starring My Dead Best Friend" which is quite tame by comparison. Some of that is for content, and some of that is for complexity of writing ("Octavian Nothing" is written in a rather good imitation of 18th century prose, which stretched my own vocabulary), and some of that is for emotional complexity.

http://www.hbook.com/blog/2009/09/its-not-how-long-you-make-it-is-it.html (http://http//www.hbook.com/blog/2009/09/its-not-how-long-you-make-it-is-it.html#links)

See Horn Book editor Roger Sutton's post on book length: another factor could be that YA has gotten older: there is much more published for older high school students than there was even ten years ago. Plus, realistic YA seems more character-driven than it used to be in the old problem novel days, and while this has given the genre undeniable depths, it may also have encouraged a certain amount of yammering on.

[Terie]

YA has changed a lot even in the last ten years or so.

Thanks for saying this, Fillanzea. I didn't want to contradict our esteemed thread leader, but yeah, YA has changed a lot in the past decade. It's true that, as always, pre-teens compose a substantial percentage of the audience (a fact that really does abash Melvin Burgess, as I've seen with my own eyes), but there are many MANY more books on offer these days that really are targeted to actual, yanno, teens. Virtually all of the readers who've contacted me out of the blue are in their mid-teens.

My first book has a scene where there's a subtle threat of rape. I worked very hard to construct it so that a younger reader who doesn't know what rape is would only find the scene threatening and scary (and not go asking awkward questions of mom and dad), while an older reader would 'get it'. At least one children's book shop wouldn't stock the series because of that scene. And it's tame by comparison to a lot of what's coming out in YA right now!

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, thank you for that. It's been a while since I wrote actual labeled-YA/Middle Grades. And it's also been a while since my substitute-teaching days, when the eighth-graders all had King and Koontz books (the ones who didn't have sports books, that is) in their hands.

[Fillanzea]

Oh, for sure, when I was in high school myself (and that was only about 10 years ago) I didn't know anyone who read YA. It was all about Stephen King and Dragonlance.

[allenparker]

Here's a bit from that work. (It's near the beginning. It was originally the start of chapter one, but it isn't any more.)



Battle of Belmont? Who wins this time?

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Izz]

Uncle Jim, I just submitted the following question in the 'Ask the Agent' forum, but based on your experience with the publishing industry, what would you guess a consensus answer might be?Check out agent Janet Reid's response to a query letter someone sent in for critique to her. Notice particularly her comments on the length aspect :)

http://queryshark.blogspot.com/2009/09/133.html

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Delhomeboy]

Thanks and @$%&!

Next question. Your first (shorter) book sells and does all right or better. What then becomes of your 175K work that's been waiting patiently for the right moment? What are its chances of selling after your first one does?

I'm certainly not an expert or anything, but I'd believe you'd need to top the NY Times bestseller list for at least ten weeks in a row and do so with at least three books before most agent would consider any piece that's 175,000 words. Usually publishers would go for something like that if they KNOW it's going to sell, and the only way to do that is to build a significant fanbase through your other works.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

.

[Izz]

That same QueryShark agent has this posted on her website regarding "query letter checklist" ...

Judging by her recent response, though, maybe that's old info.I think that's either old info, or her being polite. Here's another post where she makes some interesting comments about story length: http://queryshark.blogspot.com/2009/09/128.html

ETA: To clarify, she doesn't typically represent SF/F, but it's still very rare for debut SF/F books to sell at longer than 120K.

[The Lonely One]

Jeez you guys--I'm having trouble getting UP to wordcount on a novel!

Which leads me to this question, Uncle Jim:

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

[James D. Macdonald]

Battle of Belmont? Who wins this time?

The Yankees win tactically, the Confederates win strategically, but more important (from my point of view) Edward George Washington Butler dies there, and a passing Union soldier picks up his sword.

[Delhomeboy]

Yeah, I'm curious about that because fantasy novels tend to be longer than most. I've seen novels by new authors in this genre that are pretty darn big, and bigger than that. I've got a 662-page work by first-timer Patrick Rothfuss on my shelf.

But have you seen what he had to go through to get it published? He started submitting it before 2002, and still had to gain widespread acclaim before someone took a chance on it.

Now, if you have serious credentials, go for it. But (and I don't know if this is true or not) if this is your first novel and you don't have many credentials...eh...I just don't know. Certainly publishing is one of the most fickle and arbitrary industries in the country.

[James D. Macdonald]

1) 100,000 No problem
2) 125,000 Publishable
3) 150,000 Starting to be a problem
4) 175,000 Problem
5) 200,000 Probably won't happen

But, as always, there's the Genius Exception. And, regardless, you must make every word the right word.

[James D. Macdonald]

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works?

Add more plot.

A short story has a single effect. A novel has multiple effects. That's the main difference.



I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

You can wind up with an episodic and disjointed narrative, or an anthology. Rather than layering stories on top of each other like a cake, with each chapter being a short story, try slicing those short stories lengthwise and packing a part of all of them into each chapter.


Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

Or, it could be that you just aren't a novelist.

[motormind]

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I\

Just keep typing.

[Krintar]

You can wind up with an episodic and disjointed narrative, or an anthology.
I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?

[Delhomeboy]

I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?

I read a book called Kissing in Manhattan that was pretty much like this, and it was that guy's first work, if I recall. But would it be LIKELY to sell? I don't think so, not with us just now coming out of a recession.

[blacbird]

1) 100,000 No problem
2) 125,000 Publishable
3) 150,000 Starting to be a problem
4) 175,000 Problem
5) 200,000 Probably won't happen

But, as always, there's the Genius Exception. And, regardless, you must make every word the right word.

And the "problem" part of this problem extends beyond the quality of the writing. A lot of agents won't even look at something at 150,000 words, because a lot of publishers won't. For many, the limit is even lower than that. No matter how brilliant the writing is, if you can't get anybody to read the manuscript, you're going to have trouble getting it accepted for publication.

caw

[Judg]

I've actually been thinking of writing something like this deliberately. A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books. This would be after my first (proper) novel is out the door (possibly after the second or third or what have you - however long it takes until I feel they're 'done').
Would something like that be likely to sell, given that it wouldn't be a first novel, or is there not really a market for one-author, one-world anthologies nowadays?
Tales from Earthsea by Ursula K. LeGuin, long-established author writing in a familiar fantasy world in a genre that still seems to love short stories.

Bloodletting and Miraculous Cures by Vincent Lam, first-time author and doctor writing literary/contemporary short stories connected by the medical environment and some of the characters. Mind you, he came with an endorsement by Margaret Atwood...

So, not common, but not unheard of.

[DeskBoundTeaDrinker]

A series of short stories - same world, same characters, roughly linear in time but each its own distinct and separate tale - intended to be published in one volume, kind of like the WWI-era Biggles books.

Honestly, I know that I'm often a contrarian but I love things like this, and have thought of doing the same. And - I'll try new writers more easily if I can find their stories first. I'd heard of some guy named Neil Gaiman for a while but never read anything of his, then read a flash fiction I liked and picked up his two books of short stories - loved a few, was "eh" to others (dude, werewolf PI isn't working) but enjoyed enough to go to his full length novels. Which I have not enjoyed as thoroughly as some of those stories.

I know this isn't optimally marketable by today's marketplace standards but I still favor the concept as well....

[James D. Macdonald]

Single-author collections are hard to sell. This is because it's hard to get readers to buy them.

(Being a "contrarian" is all very well, but are there enough "contrarians" in the book-buying public to make it worthwhile to roll the presses and for bookstores to order in profitable numbers?)

The number one reason anyone buys a book is because they've read and enjoyed something else that same author has written.

That's the same reason it's hard to sell long works as first novels.

The publishers have a pretty fair idea how many copies any first novel will sell.

As the number of pages goes up, the price per unit goes up. As print runs go up, the price-per-unit goes down.

You graph those out. Do the lines cross above or below the expected sales of a first novel? If they cross below that number, there's a chance the book will get bought. If they cross above that number, it's probably not going to get bought.

Now you understand that there is a maximum price that most readers will pay (even for a long-awaited book by a favorite author). And there is a minimum price that the publisher can charge if they're going to break even, given bookstore discounts and returns.

By the time you get to a second or third novel, the publisher has a fair idea of how well you sell. Which will be different from, and (I hope) higher than, the number that a generic first-novel sells. If it's enough higher, then you can sell that longer tome.

[Stijn Hommes]

8,000 words? That's 32 pages. That's six hours' typing if all you can manage is 20 words per minute.

Sit down. Rewrite it from memory. It'll be better. Promise. Above all else, if you have a day job, writing has to be fun. That said, you should have a go at rewriting, you might get the spark again when you get in the swing of things, and Jim is right when he says it's not that much of a commitment...

[Stijn Hommes]

Why not? Play with everything you know. How can it be wrong? Professional magicians may have a favorite card force, but they know a dozen different card forces in order to be able to select the best one for the circumstances. And, in case the force fails, they know another direction to take the trick so that the audience is still entertained.

Only you can decide the best way to tell your story. Your decision will be based on your experience. What you can do will be influenced by the tools you've packed into your tool box. Yes, learning a new trend is a good thing even if it's only to expand your horizons. I'm dabble in magic too, but I'm still an amateur, I've been paid more for my writing. I know plenty of card forces, but I only ever use one because I don't need any others. The key to being a good magician, especially when you're creating magic, is to know as many moves and principles as you can so you can apply them to your new ideas. Writing is not very different.

[allenparker]

Jeez you guys--I'm having trouble getting UP to wordcount on a novel!

Which leads me to this question, Uncle Jim:

For someone who has spent most of his writing career (heh) with short fiction, what are some good steps to transition to longer works? I've found that regarding each chapter as a short story with its own pitfalls and arcs and such helps me visualize each step--but are there flaws in thinking of it this way?

Curious, as I'm notoriously bad at extending my thoughts past 3k words.

Perhaps you are using your short story skill set for your longer works. The two are not the same. IN a short story, you need to tell the story economically. No extra words not necessary to the plot or setting. In a longer work, you have the luxury and the responsibility to splurge.

Think of your short work as a sketch of a beautiful woman lying on a table. The charcoal sketch details with shading and white contrasts.

Now see the same woman done in a full color painting. The depths of color and the range of visual contrast offer a better likeness of the woman.

Some of the analogy falls apart, but the basics are the same. Paint a colorfully detailed picture of your story with full depth and a wide range of the surroundings.

That's what lives in my world. Your world may be different.

[The Lonely One]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I think it's a practiced tendency of mine to contain an idea and a story and a character in a few thousand words.

I've written a good 16,000 words on a first-attempt novel, though I am sort of out on a limb shooting for 100k (I'll be lucky to get 60k, if I'm honest with myself).

So, as much as I'd like to believe so I don't think it's a matter of motivation or continuing to write by will as it is me sloping my plots too soon for a novel.

Practice practice practice?

Thanks again UJ and others.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, Does it bother you that I'm asking questions about posts you made six years ago?

ETA: I loved The Haunted Author. I'm about to start MTM, and the predator agent I found was in WD. I wish I had found this thread a year ago.

No, I don't mind (though it would be useful to put in a link to the post, so folks playing at home can follow along).

[Ken Schneider]

Check out agent Janet Reid's response to a query letter someone sent in for critique to her. Notice particularly her comments on the length aspect


Yes, dear Janet. I've known her for a few years.

Well, actually Shree Bykofsky recommended Janet to me saying, 'I meet her at a recent conference and she impressed me. She's a new agent.'

Janet was reading mss on Messerole then. Now she has a downtown addy.

Just spoke to her through e-mail last week. She's doing well.

She started her agency back in '04 or '05.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, I see, Wayne. You're up to post 87 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82374&postcount=87) in this massive thread?

[HConn]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I think it's a practiced tendency of mine to contain an idea and a story and a character in a few thousand words.

I've written a good 16,000 words on a first-attempt novel, though I am sort of out on a limb shooting for 100k (I'll be lucky to get 60k, if I'm honest with myself).

So, as much as I'd like to believe so I don't think it's a matter of motivation or continuing to write by will as it is me sloping my plots too soon for a novel.

Practice practice practice?

Thanks again UJ and others.

Can I make a suggestion? What if you were to write a novel with multiple POVs and interlocking stories? Five characters would come out to 18k-20k words each.

You could even write much shorter chapters, with many more viewpoints and call it a "mosaic novel."

[bettielee]

Ah, I see, Wayne. You're up to post 87 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82374&postcount=87) in this massive thread?

I really want that t-shirt.

[The Lonely One]

Can I make a suggestion? What if you were to write a novel with multiple POVs and interlocking stories? Five characters would come out to 18k-20k words each.

You could even write much shorter chapters, with many more viewpoints and call it a "mosaic novel."

Actually it's funny you say that because I think the momentum of my WIP is based on there being three main characters and others who all get screen time (omniscient).

You're right, it is quite helpful. My shorts usually grab once MC or two at most, and others are stringers without much time spend dissecting them.

I'll always love short stories. It's just the way my mind works. But I think the written novel is within my capacity to learn. AW is helping a lot with that as well.

[smsarber]

I'm usually one who skips past the work and suffers because of it



Maybe we were seperated at birth. I still haven't gone through the whole thread, even though I know how much gold really is in it.

[HConn]

Agent Jennifer Jackson talks about the advances debut writers receive (http://arcaedia.livejournal.com/211206.html -- I can't get the link button to work here at day job, and I don't know the square bracket coding) prompted by an email from a real estate agent asking her to forward a listing for a 2.5 million dollar mountaintop retreat to her writers.

Related: Donald Maas offers a free ebook, (http://www.maassagency.com/books.html) which, in part, talks about why some writers make six-figures every year, and what they have in common.

[James D. Macdonald]

Yet another plot generator: http://wondermark.com/554/

===========

The coding for links is [ URL = "http://...." ] anchor text [ /URL ]

(Only without any spaces.)

[HConn]

Thank you! I knew it was something straightforward, but I'm not braining today. I'm a little stressed about stuff, honestly.

[James D. Macdonald]

What the Mail Fairy brought:

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/apocaplyseDoorcover_paperbackA.jpg

This is a reduced-size scan of a color photocopy, so the quality isn't all that good, but it should give you an idea. The front cover of the paperback reprint of The Apocalypse Door (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0765306085).

This'll be out around Christmas time.

[euclid]

Talking about book covers, it amazes me how poor many book covers are nowadays. Michael Connelly's The Scarecrow is a case in point. It shows the light from a window and the vague shadow of a human form, totally out of focus. I suppose, maybe when you're a best-selling author you don't need good covers any more.

?

[The Lonely One]

I suppose, maybe when you're a best-selling author you don't need good covers any more.

?

I'll let you know in a few years.

[euclid]

I'll let you know in a few years.

Not so many years, I reckon. I read Madeline. Good job!

[Dicentra P]

I'm going to write this one:


Your title is: “The Cyberbots”

In an ancient Victorian Britain, a young collector of oddities stumbles across a dusty tome which spurs him into conflict with an army led by a sadist, with the help of a leather-clad female in shades and her welding gear, culminating in wish-fulfillment solutions to real-world problems.

[SarahMacManus]

Yet another plot generator: http://wondermark.com/554/




It's disturbing how applicable much of this is... *cough*

[James D. Macdonald]

Talking about book covers, it amazes me how poor many book covers are nowadays.

Book covers are not meant to be representational. They are meant to be point-of-sale advertising for the book. More precisely, they are meant to signal to the reader, "This is the sort of book you like."

If vague blobs of blue and yellow send those signals, that's what's going to be on the cover.
More covers:

This is the wrap-around cover art for the (still untitled) Civil War Fantasy (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/civwar02coverA.jpg).



Two different covers for The Scarecrow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1409103005/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Hardcover:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31at6%2BIhfiL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Paperback:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ASkZOJNRL._BO2,204,203,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

When you're a best-selling author your publisher's art and marketing departments spend a lot of time and money on your covers.

[Calliopenjo]

As a side off topic note, ignore if you like, I read on another site to help develop your character, describe what's in her purse, his pocket, or the student's backpack. It didn't dawn on me until I started thinking about it. Purses vary as much as their contents. Contents varying from woman to woman. I was in a waiting room and an older man had a pouch, large enough to place his reading glasses, wallet, and keys. There was probably a pack of gum in there as well. Something that you do everyday can be an easy add in.

Who would've thought? I know I didn't :Wha:

[year90ninezero]

I kind of like those "The Scarecrow" covers. I don't like too much going on on covers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Michael Connelly is what's known as a Big Name Author. That is, his name is in bigger type than the book's title.

[Krintar]

Two different covers for The Scarecrow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/1409103005/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/).

Hardcover:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31at6%2BIhfiL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Paperback:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ASkZOJNRL._BO2,204,203,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg


...and a better Scarecrow
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/98/Scarecrow.jpg/200px-Scarecrow.jpg

:tongue

[HConn]

Nice cover, Uncle Jim! Very evocative.

[RJK]

Uncle Jim,
Speaking of covers and author's names, I've noticed that your books don't use a consistent name. I realize that you share with Doyle on many projects and she deserves her place on the cover, but have you given any consideration to brand loyalty when people look for your name? Do you change how your name appears on the covers purposely?

[James D. Macdonald]

How the names appear on the covers is a marketing decision, and is partly to avoid the Death Spiral (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=82771&postcount=481).

[James D. Macdonald]

Writers, who needs 'em? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_igKSYspPs)

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim,

I don't think I'm quite sure what deep 3rd person perspective is. Can you explain what differs it from other 3rd: omnicient, etc... and give me an example of a novel in deep 3rd. (Or is it just a term conjured up by writers who couldn't decide what perspective their writing is in?)

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

I don't think I'm quite sure what deep 3rd person perspective is.

Deep third person point of view is just like third person limited, except the viewpoint character's thoughts are set in Roman rather than Italic. If you write in deep third POV, the copyeditor will come along and put the character's thoughts into whatever the house style is anyway.

Rather than worry about these tiny and theoretical varieties of POV, write your story.


If you're really fascinated (and want to put off writing), try this article: http://www.sff.net/people/alicia/arthist.htm

[smsarber]

I rarely do think too much about those things, but it never hurts to have the information. I would have never guessed that was the distinction, thanks:)

[RJK]

Writers, who needs 'em? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_igKSYspPs)

Reminds me of a couple of my investigations. :e2bummed:

[Cuppa]

Deep third person point of view is just like third person limited, except the viewpoint character's thoughts are set in Roman rather than Italic. If you write in deep third POV, the copyeditor will come along and put the character's thoughts into whatever the house style is anyway.

Rather than worry about these tiny and theoretical varieties of POV, write your story.


If you're really fascinated (and want to put off writing), try this article: http://www.sff.net/people/alicia/arthist.htm

Hey Uncle Jim. You probably get this a lot, but thanks for doing this.

I am writing my MT in third-person close. The narrative is in my MC's own language, his thoughts are without italics unless it's a first person thought "I need to do this".

Not the best examples-

3rd person basic (lacking a complete and unique opinion on the situation)-
He walked the dog and kicked a can.

3rd person far (narrator is different than the boy at the present scene)-
He walked the dog and kicked a can. Chores were often annoying to young boys and he was no exception.

3rd person 'limited' (thoughts separated from narrative)-
He walked the dog and kicked a can. Damn chores.

3rd person close (thoughts not separated, closer than 'limited')-
He walked the dog and kicked a can. Damn chores.

3rd person close (more close or 'deep', in his own voice, my MT is written this way)-
He walked the dumb dog and kicked a can. Damn chores.

Anyway, I am wondering if my understanding of third person, and the ends of the spectrum (far to close) are correct? Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

Anyway, I am wondering if my understanding of third person, and the ends of the spectrum (far to close) are correct? Thanks.

Close enough. There isn't really a hard dividing line between any of 'em. Add in third omniscient and you may well have the set.

[Cuppa]

Yeah, not the best examples. I'm beta reading for someone, and thought that maybe I should make sure I know what the hell I'm talking about. Also this book I read explained it in a less than sensible way with some bad examples.

I forgot, but this was part of two questions actually.

If something is written like the last example above (the narrative is deeply influenced by the PoV's world view, language), should it be omniscient? I personally don't think it works and it seems to me that an omniscient PoV requires some narrative distance.

Thanks for the help in letting me understand the intricacies.

[James D. Macdonald]

If something is written like the last example above (the narrative is deeply influenced by the PoV's world view, language), should it be omniscient?

I don't see how it could be.

When you're that far over into third person you're starting to shade into a first-person narrator with a dissociative disorder.

[Cuppa]

Thank you. I thought I was wrong about it, and that I gave some bad advice.


Rather than worry about these tiny and theoretical varieties of POV, write your story.


Time to take that advice and write! Should've started earlier, but I woke up too early, and had to take a nap to compensate. :D

[James D. Macdonald]

The Art of Dramatic Writing-Lajos Egri.

Never read it. Like anything else, take what works for you; leave the rest.

Don't get trapped. Reading about writing is not the same thing as actually writing.

Writing a novel will teach you more about writing novels than all the how-to guides in the world.

[The Lonely One]

Hmm. Agree with the sage advice about writing novels vs. reading instructional books.

I give myself this advice, curious what you think:

I read books about writing by writers whose writing I wish to emulate/enjoy on some deeper artistic level.

If I read their fiction and I think it's hack, I avoid their books on technique.

[allenparker]

I don't see how it could be.

When you're that far over into third person you're starting to shade into a first-person narrator with a dissociative disorder.

Hoooraaayyy! Now I know why I write like this. I write in First person, dissociative disorder. Does this mean my manuscript needs therapy?

I am going to start re-querying immediately.
(I know. I know. Take it outside.)

[euclid]

I'm working on something new. I'm hoping for a strong voice in third person and planning to switch POV in about 2 chapters. So far, I've got about half a plot. Trying to complete my basic outline. In order to get to the bottom of the story, I've been writing it over and over in first person from each main character's POV. I'm getting there very slowly. I can't think of any other way to tease out the plot. I suppose you might say: "Write the thing and let it happen", but that approach scares me. I could easily finish up with three quarters of a book that makes no sense.

[Chris Grey]

Never read it. Like anything else, take what works for you; leave the rest.

Don't get trapped. Reading about writing is not the same thing as actually writing.

Writing a novel will teach you more about writing novels than all the how-to guides in the world.

I'd go so far as to say that books on writing are empty calories. Writing teaches you about writing novels. Reading novels teaches you what publishable novels look like.

Books on writing might work for some, but I think they largely only exist because there's such a demand. Too many people want to have written (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/It%27s%20a%20Terry%20Pratchett%20quote.).

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, I'm stuck on memoir writing.

You can use the novelists' techniques: 1) Keep it entertaining. 2) Start with a person in a place with a problem. 3) Keep it entertaining. 4) Don't tell the readers anything before they care. 5) Keep it entertaining. 6) End with a climax, to reward the reader for following you all this time and to let the reader know that the book is over. 6) Keep it entertaining.

I suppose you might say: "Write the thing and let it happen", but that approach scares me. I could easily finish up with three quarters of a book that makes no sense.

Write an outline. But don't fixate on making the perfect outline on your first go. Get a general outline. Then refine it. And for Crom's sake, what are you doing "writing it over and over in first person from each main character's POV"?

Write the whole book as a ten page, single space, third person, present tense narrative. By tomorrow. Don't look back until you hit "The End."

Before you ask, I don't give a hoot if you use Times New Roman or Dark Courier or Goudy Old Style, or red ink or green paper, nor do I give a flip if you have one inch margins or 5/8" margins or what. 5,000 words. Don't even stop to correct typos. If you don't know what happens next just make something up. Get going.

Now.

[Karen Junker]

I love it when you get all strict like that, UJ...:)

[euclid]

I'd go so far as to say that books on writing are empty calories. Writing teaches you about writing novels. Reading novels teaches you what publishable novels look like.

Books on writing might work for some, but I think they largely only exist because there's such a demand. Too many people want to have written (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/It%27s%20a%20Terry%20Pratchett%20quote.).

That link doesn't work, Chris.

[The Lonely One]

That link doesn't work, Chris.

Maybe it was a visual metaphor?

[Stijn Hommes]

Book covers are not meant to be representational. They are meant to be point-of-sale advertising for the book. More precisely, they are meant to signal to the reader, "This is the sort of book you like."

If vague blobs of blue and yellow send those signals, that's what's going to be on the cover.

When you're a best-selling author your publisher's art and marketing departments spend a lot of time and money on your covers. After comparing the two scarecrow covers, I'd have to agree that the vague window cover wouldn't really appeal to me. What sort of research do publishers do to decide what would be an effective cover?

[Charissa]

What do you think about this fragment, Jim:

"a thousand small spiders’ webs sparkling in the frosted grass."

Unintentional alliteration? Or just too purple?
Any suggestions how I could de-alliterate it?

It sounds slightly cliche. I'm always hearing about 'sparking' spider webs.

"A thousand tiny spider webs entangled in the frosted grass, relfecting the early sunlight and/or pale moonlight"

My edit is probably riddled with flaws though... I'm new to writing...

[euclid]

It sounds slightly cliche. I'm always hearing about 'sparking' spider webs.

"A thousand tiny spider webs entangled in the frosted grass, relfecting the early sunlight and/or pale moonlight"

My edit is probably riddled with flaws though... I'm new to writing...

That's really funny. I don't think I've ever read anything with sparkling (or sparking) spider webs. We must be reading different sorts of books. I noticed this effect on a dew-laden lawn one morning. I was amazed - I had no idea there were so many (or any) spiders living in the grass - and it stuck in my memory. Anyway, my image obviously got through to you.

[Izz]

I don't think I've ever read anything with sparkling (or sparking) spider webs. If there's one thing spider webs are always doing in books, it's sparkling.

But i gotta say, i would love to see a spider web spark. Or maybe the spider within the web spark. Y'know, clack together its steel-tipped mandibles (of course, relatively a web is stronger than steel, isn't it, so why would a spider put steel on its mandibles? But the thought of a spider with steel-tipped mandibles is just so awesome) to taunt the fly that just got caught, and then slowly, slowly begin advancing down the webbing, sparking them there mandibles every step of the way...

That would be cool.

[euclid]

If there's one thing spider webs are always doing in books, it's sparkling.

Best drop this subject. I'm sure it's way off-topic and I think I can hear Uncle Jim reaching for his cat-o-nine-tales.

[smsarber]

I'm ashamed to say that lately, since I came home from the hospital, really, I have been in a major funk. I wrote a good deal while I was in the hospital, but now that I've been home about six weeks I just can't get the ball rolling. I've only written 1,500 words in that time on the novel, and about 750 on a short story, in an attempt to break the cycle. Any suggestions?

But I have one thing to be very proud of: Check my signature...

[allenparker]

I've only written 1,500 words in that time on the novel, and about 750 on a short story, in an attempt to break the cycle. Any suggestions?



Sure. BIC, finger on keys. Type what comes to mind. Repeat everyday. No skipping.

You need to retrain your mind to write on que.

[smsarber]

Been trying to do that everyday. But I am just about back to 100% from the surgery, so hopefully my mind will follow suit;)

[The Lonely One]

When my mind or body goes through a major change I need some readjusting time to get comfortable in my own skin again. Don't know if this is what you're going through but I think a major surgery's a legit reason to have a temporary funk.

[Calliopenjo]

To Steven,
Writing Prompt: Describe your office - from a cat's point of view (or other pet)

Try this when you're stuck with your current WIP. Just for fun.



From Creative Calisthenics

[smsarber]

No office... just the corner of the living room... but I can describe that;)

I printed out the 124 pages of my WIP so I can reacquaint myself with it. That should help get back the fire. I just wonder if the half the lung they removed was my muse's living quarters, lol.

[MiltonPope]

Uncle Jim reaching for his cat-o-nine-tales.
The cat-o-nine tales isn't Uncle Jim's, it's Sheherazade's. She has 111 of them.

--Milton

[jinap]

Congrats Steven! Having half a lung sounds like a good reason to be in a writing funk - but it looks like others have already given good ideas.

And Milton, I thought she had 1001 of them?

[Ken Schneider]

Sit in front of a blank screen in your writing program for two hours a night.

You'll write, if not for making something of the wasted time.

Write about anything.

[euclid]

I thought she had 1001 of them?

1000 told over 1001 nights

[RJK]

Steven,
Any surgery is a shock to your body, and you had a major one. Just recognize that, and let nature take its course. Do whatever you need to do to physically recover, and the muse will return. In the meantime, maybe edit what you have so far, it will get you back into your story.

[HConn]

What RJK said. Give yourself space to recover and let yourself come back to it when you're ready.

I changed my sig, too.

[MiltonPope]

Look for CHILD OF FIRE, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345508890?ie=UTF8&tag=twenpala-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0345508890) out right now from Del Rey!

Two things, HConn: First, that's a terrific first chapter, and I'll have to buy the book as soon as I can. Second, you've given me a reason to jump back into my WIP, after being interrupted by a crunch at work. Congratulations!

--Milton

[smsarber]

Steven,
Any surgery is a shock to your body, and you had a major one. Just recognize that, and let nature take its course. Do whatever you need to do to physically recover, and the muse will return. In the meantime, maybe edit what you have so far, it will get you back into your story.

Funny you should say that, it's kinda what I was doing last night. I'm superstitious about formally editing an unfinished work, but I'm not above looking for spelling errors and such. Anyway, I broke the block... at least for the night. Got almost 500 words written on the novel. I guess I needed to hear "Get your BIC!" LOL.

[MrWrite]

Two things, HConn: First, that's a terrific first chapter, and I'll have to buy the book as soon as I can. Second, you've given me a reason to jump back into my WIP, after being interrupted by a crunch at work. Congratulations!

--Milton

Seconded all the above!

[jinkang]

Hello Uncle Jim and hello everyone!

First off, thank you for your time! I still have 120 pages to go from Volume 1 (I don't think the Index goes up to the end) but I couldn't wait to participate in the on-going discussion after spending a week or so trying to catch up.

I'm currently working on short stories to learn the craft and collect some rejection notes/emails. And so far it's working! (collecting rejections, I mean)

Rewrite/revision is probably the most difficult part for me as I rarely looked back at what I wrote until this year. Call it a disease, if you will; I'd never heard of the phrase 'writing is rewriting' until this year!

And even my first reader wonders why I bother to write, dreaming to be a 'published' writer one day--within 5 years?--since she knows she can write better with her eyes closed and probably with her hands tied behind her back. My odd sense of grammar doesn't help either.

Of the drafts that I have revised, the longest one is a novella of 25,000 words. I'm thinking about putting some extra words (right words, mind) and make it into a short novel for children/young adult audience. That or just chop of the first half and make it into a short story since a friend read it and couldn't even finish it. ::sigh::

And that, probably, is enough to label me as a newbie and a beginning writer.

I hope to learn much more from y'all~

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, If you don't know what happens next just make something up. Get going.

Now.

Once again, Uncle Jim, thanks for the permission to "write crap". While I've been giving advice to others my own writing has been, shall we say, slacking and what I've been able to get out in the last week was an atrocious output (under 500 words).

So, thanks for giving me the whack up side of the head to get going again on my next book.

It doesn't matter if it's good writing now - it'll be good writing when I get it done.

[FOTSGreg]

smsarber, Envision yourself after you've passed on. What do you want people to remember about you? What do you want to leave behind?

You have a thousand tales to tell, a thousand things to say before you move on to the next world.

You've just been given a major wakeup call by reality.

You are not going to be here forever.

You have things to say, stories to tell, a legacy to leave to your family if to no one else.

Get your butt in the chair and get it done.

You no longer have the time to leave it to the muse coming to call on her own. Track that bitch down, hit her with a tranquilizer dart, and drag her trussed-up carcass back to wherever it is you write and torture her mercilessly until she gives up the stories you have to tell.

Actually, she'll thank you for it. She wants to help you tell your stories, but she's a fickle bitch. You have to show her who's boss and she's sometimes a sadomasochistic little critter...


...but she'll always submit in the end...

Get that whip cracking across her shoulders. She likes it.

You have to like it too.

I know you do...

Hehehehehehe...

[dahlfan]

This and interesting thread...kind of long, though.

[MrWrite]

This and interesting thread...kind of long, though.

If you think THIS is long you should see the first one! :ROFL:

[jinkang]

Uncle Jim, thanks for the permission to write crap!

But what should I do if my revisions turn out not much better?

I need a new brain. (no, I'm not writing zombie fic.)

[James D. Macdonald]

But what should I do if my revisions turn out not much better?

Revise again.

Then re-write some.

And read a lot. And start your next book.

[HConn]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

Uncle Jim, what techniques do you use for varying the pace? I heard another writer (who writes scripts) say that every story (he writes) has two genres: The most exciting high-conflict parts of the story are in the main genre, and the low, resting points of the story are the secondary genre. So, action movie/domestic drama. Or supernatural thriller/romance.

Which is interesting, but I'm not that analytical with my writing. How do you judge the proper balance of high tension and resting points?

[James D. Macdonald]

How do you judge the proper balance of high tension and resting points? I do it by ear. Sometimes when you're playing jazz you just have to jam.

Don't forget the comic relief.

The reason you want highs and lows is for the contrast. If everything is high, nothing is. If you put in a very deep low, everything else will seem much higher than it really is.

If you think THIS is long you should see the first one! :ROFL:


I hope everyone here has read/is reading Learn Writing Volume One (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710).

[Chris Grey]

If you think THIS is long you should see the first one! :ROFL:

That's what she said! :D

One thing I'm curious about is character development. How do you delineate characters? I mean, Boromir and Aragorn-- why two characters instead of merging them into one man who falls and then redeems himself? Why a Cowardly Lion and a Tin Man (courage and a heart could easily be the same)? Is there a sort of generally accepted limit to character complexity?

[MrWrite]

That's what she said! :D

One thing I'm curious about is character development. How do you delineate characters? I mean, Boromir and Aragorn-- why two characters instead of merging them into one man who falls and then redeems himself? Why a Cowardly Lion and a Tin Man (courage and a heart could easily be the same)? Is there a sort of generally accepted limit to character complexity?


BOOM! BOOM! :ROFL:

[FOTSGreg]

Chris Grey wrote, One thing I'm curious about is character development. How do you delineate characters? I mean, Boromir and Aragorn-- why two characters instead of merging them into one man who falls and then redeems himself? Why a Cowardly Lion and a Tin Man (courage and a heart could easily be the same)? Is there a sort of generally accepted limit to character complexity?

Obviously, I'm not Uncle Jim, but each of the characters mentioned above serve to describe a single aspect of the Hero's Tale. As a composite they all serve to describe the hero, ultimately, himself, a little bit at a time.

Even Aragorn serves, initially as the Ranger, to describe a bit about Aragorn's personality. Aragorn doesn't really want the crown. He doesn't want the responsibility that comes with being a "true king". He has a wild and carefree lifestyle through the Ranger and nobody recognizes him or is trying to force him to face his responsibilities. Then Boromir arrives on the scene. Boromir is everything that the Ranger is not. He is honor-bound, but greedy, filled with avarice and envy, knowing that he and his lineage should be the true heirs to the crown. But in the end, Boromir proves to be honorable, willing to give his life to defend Frodo's retreat.

That's a part of Aragorn's personality. He wants the crown, but avoids the crown's responsibilities like the plague. Tolkien shows us aspects of Aragorn;s true personality through the mirror of other characters.

The same holds true for Dorothy and the motley crew of characters in The Wizard of Oz. Each of the characters is an aspect of Dorothy and her personality. She has courage, but the Cowardly Lion shows she also has fear. She has heart, but the Tin Man shows she can be callous. She's intelligent, but the Scarecrow shows she also needs experience and tempering to use it. The entire trip through Oz is a growing experience for Dorothy as well. The entire background is an examination of her life (in the movie at least) and shows how she stops being a little girl, lost in the wilds of Kansas and quickly grows up and starts to become the young woman she is meant to be.

Characters like this are not throwaways, they're part and parcel of your character's personality. They are mirrors that are held up to reflect and demonstrate traits of the character without the character actually having to deonstrate them themselves. By looking in the mirror, your character can see aspects of themselves they never thought they would ever see and thus grow.

Here's an alternate view - all of the characters in Tolkien's work are aspects of Frodo.

Think about it...

That's my view at least.

PS. It's interesting to note why Boromir dies whether it be Aragorn's or Frodo's character he's a reflection of. The question becomes one of what aspect of Aragorn's or Frodo's character dies or is eliminated when Boromir dies. I won't answer that one for you, but I know what aspect of the character died for me and why in my own opinion (not that that counts for anything).

[euclid]

Greg, that's all FAR too high-brow for me. I put characters into my books in order to tell the story. The characters have personalities of their own, which don't reflect anything at all about anybody else. At least I don't think they do.

Is this something I should be concerned about?

[euclid]

Uncle Jim: I'm writing this book, not just an outline. Today (it's noon here) I hit 10,000 words. I hope to make 12,000 by Sunday. If I can do 10,000 per week I'll have draft 1 finished in 10 weeks. 12,000 per week the whole thing will take 8 weeks. Either way I should have draft 1 by Christmas.

[The Lonely One]

Uncle Jim: I'm writing this book, not just an outline. Today (it's noon here) I hit 10,000 words. I hope to make 12,000 by Sunday. If I can do 10,000 per week I'll have draft 1 finished in 10 weeks. 12,000 per week the whole thing will take 8 weeks. Either way I should have draft 1 by Christmas.

Merry Christmas, euclid!

[HConn]

If you put in a very deep low, everything else will seem much higher than it really is.

::lightbulb switches on::

Thanks, Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Take some time off!

Everyone, do a crossword puzzle, a word-search puzzle, a cryptogram, or some other puzzle that has to do with words.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid wrote, Is this something I should be concerned about?

Nope. Sometimes characters are just characters. However, every character in a story needs to have some purpose, even the most minor of them. I think too many people write scenes with throwaway characters who don't serve some purpose in their story.

It should probably be remembered that even your minor characters need to be portrayed as real people. They have lives too and the things they do in the story should reflect this.

[motormind]

Take some time off!

Everyone, do a crossword puzzle, a word-search puzzle, a cryptogram, or some other puzzle that has to do with words.

Does "finding profanities rhyming with a random word from the dictionary" count?

[euclid]

Euclid wrote, Is this something I should be concerned about?

Nope. Sometimes characters are just characters.

Would you agree with this, Uncle Jim?

It should probably be remembered that even your minor characters need to be portrayed as real people. They have lives too and the things they do in the story should reflect this.

On the other hand, I understand that investing ink in spurious details about minor characters is frowned on, unless those details enhance the story.

My stories tend to be like ant hills, overflowing with minor characters. My current WIP has 27 characters already and I'm only up to chapter 10. This is a big worry, but it seems unavoidable. I've thought about it and I think I could eliminate one minor character. I reckon there are only about 8 more characters to come. That's a total of 34.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid wrote, On the other hand, I understand that investing ink in spurious details about minor characters is frowned on, unless those details enhance the story.

My stories tend to be like ant hills, overflowing with minor characters. My current WIP has 27 characters already and I'm only up to chapter 10. This is a big worry, but it seems unavoidable. I've thought about it and I think I could eliminate one minor character. I reckon there are only about 8 more characters to come. That's a total of 34.

So...when reading this work I'll need a scorecard to keep track of all 34 characters? That seems excessive to me.

If you look at a major work like The Lord of the Rings there are a myriad of characters ranging from Tom Bombadill to Sauron to Frodo and Gandalf. There are the Warg Riders, the Elves, the Riders of Rohan, etc., etc. Tolkien's tome is sweeping and overarching. If you think LotR is a tome, try reading The Sylmarillion sometime. You do need a scorecard to keep track of all the characters in that book.

Do each of your characters serve some purpose to move your book forward, to advance the plot and theme, and to reinforce the protagonist's personality or the decisions he/she needs to make?

If not, perhaps some of them are bit players who really don;t need to come on-scene at all? I can't answer that question for you, but it seems to me that a hard examination of your story and the parts each character plays in advancing the story might be necessary once the work is finished. An editor is ultimately going to do that, of course, and you can put good money on it that you'll be asked to cut out quite a few of that enormous cast. However, each character or set of characters serves some purpose in advancing the story, moving Frodo ever closer to his encounter and decision at the Crack of Doom.

Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.