Things that will date your work?

[sydney]

I keep hearing that this or that will date your work. I get what people mean, but then again, I don't.
What kind of stuff should I avoid mentioning?

[cscarlet]

First things that come to mind are specifics with electronics (processing speeds, types of videogames, types of video game consoles, types of TVs, DVD vs. BlueRay (eventually it'll all go digital download online or via on-demand), companies that are fads (i.e. Macys is not, but BeBe probably is)... things like that, I would imagine. :) Also, certain kinds of slang... that changes ALL the time.

[Sarah Christine]

Little things that I personally notice are teen speak (like bomb diggity, as my girlfriend is so intent on bringing back...as well as 'That's so rufus'), fashion styles, and celebs.

Sookie Stackhouse is a good example of fashion style. She puts on clothes that I can say, "My god that is so turn of the century, I remember wearing pants like those in high school."

Another thing I saw in the House of Night series was the mention of Orlando Bloom. I had to pause and go, "Huh...do girls still lust after him like they used to, or is this just an older ref?"

[The Lonely One]

Everything.

[The Lonely One]

But more seriously, I think what people are talking about are things that will trap your story in a time period, such that your work depreciates in social value in a detrimental way.

I don't see what's wrong with it, myself. Like I said before, eventually, everything's dated.

"Remember when humans existed?"

"Yeah. This stuff they wrote is so dated."

[katiemac]

I was reading a novel last night that said something about Princess Diana being on television. I don't think it's a huge deal to use references if it's okay that your book will forever take place in the 90s or whenever.

But sometimes, unless you're actively writing about a specific time period, you want a reader in 2010 to pick up a novel from 1980 and still think it's happening in the present time. Or maybe it doesn't matter. Just decide what you need to work for your book. Obviously there will be things you can't forsee, like cell phones taking over telephone booths. (Oh, Clark Kent, where will you change clothes now?)

[sydney]

Thanks for the help!
I'm sort of second guessing everything now but... lol

katiemac: Okay that's so creepy because #1, I mention Diana. Not in a "now" kind of way though. The characters are referencing her as a kind of modern superhero. #2 My MC is named Kent Clark hahaha

Anyway, I'm opting to keep my "dated" stuff in. I understand if people might read it later and be confused, but nothing is so important as to really deter a reader.

[katiemac]

katiemac: Okay that's so creepy because #1, I mention Diana. Not in a "now" kind of way though. The characters are referencing her as a kind of modern superhero. #2 My MC is named Kent Clark hahaha



.... I think this is a sign I need to take a break from AW, LOL.

[sydney]

LOL Well my MS and those details have only been seen by my eyes, if that helps ahaha

[cathyfreeze]

Everything.

Heh. That's why contemporary fiction is so difficult. You have to stick to 'classic' clothes; classic other things, too. Name dropping (products or people) isn't generally a good idea, because of that dating thing, but i think it's also a form of worldbuilding cheating, really, so avoiding that kinda thing actually makes for better writing technique, imho.

There are pop culture things, too, that should perhaps be avoided, unless you want to show that someone's nerdy or older. Songs, toys, movies, actors (Orlando Bloom!), books, 'best vacation spots.' Anything touted in Entertainment weekly. :)

[sydney]

I guess if I really were very worried, I could change everything that might get dated... except for one.
They go to see a movie that's in theaters right now (500 Days of Summer) and stuff happens at the theater. Do I have to take the scene out?

[Ken]

... some dated material is okay by me and gives a book a nostalgic feel. But if there's too much dated material in a work then it becomes a labor to read. I had to stop reading a short story from the 1940's just recently, for instance, because it centered on a baseball broadcast from the era and I wasn't familiar with any of the names except one.

[RG570]

This issue is the height of pettiness.

I don't worry about it and wish nobody else would either.

They say a book is supposed to take a person to some other time or place, but agents somehow think that you can't ever have someone talk about what's actually going on at that time and place.

It makes no sense.

[James D. Macdonald]

...but agents somehow think that you can't ever have someone talk about what's actually going on at that time and place.


There's a difference between having two characters talk about listening to Hoagy Carmichael and the narrator describing the main character as looking like Hoagy Carmichael.

[katiemac]

I guess if I really were very worried, I could change everything that might get dated... except for one.
They go to see a movie that's in theaters right now (500 Days of Summer) and stuff happens at the theater. Do I have to take the scene out?

I, personally, would not use this movie. Just say they go see an indie film. If stuff in the movie is important to what happens in your book, just describe it in vague terms and allude to the film, but don't say what it is. Something about this just seems way too specific when it really doesn't need to be.

[Salis]

I don't think there's inherently anything *wrong* with dating yourself, as long as that's a part of the story.

(i.e, if something is set in 2010, it's set in 2010, no point performing extreme acrobatics to make it maddeningly inspecific).

[suki]

I think like a lot of other writing issues, the decisions come down to necessity for the story and risk.

Anything - movies, music, technology, slang, etc... can date the work. And often it isn't a big deal.

A kid reading a book today that was written 20 years ago, or even 10-12 years ago, might wonder why the teen stranded with a flat tire doesn't just use her cell phone to call for help. But then the teen will figure it out. No big deal.

Same with mentions of music, movies, etc. Usually, not a big deal.

The issue really does effect longevity of the work when there is an essential character or plot element that is more than dated - maybe the thing you mention has changed over time, and it is so essential to the plot/character that it does interfere with the reader's ability to connect.

For example, say a book written at a time when Britney Spears was the height of cool. or Jessica Simpson. Or Michael Jackson. Menudo.

Now, reading a book now where Menudo was the MC's obsession and crush wouldn't maybe effect a contemporary teen from connecting - mainly because they don't know who Menudo is.

But what if the 16 yo girl MC has a major crush on Michael Jackson - would modern girl or boy readers relate to that?

What if the MC thinks Britnesy Spears or Jessica Simpson are the height of cool - a modern teen picking up that book might be immediately turned off, if they think Britney or Jessica are a joke.

The danger gets even more present if the thing you focus on or include is just becoming uncool. What if your characters love the Jonas Brothers. And the Jonas Brothers are cool now. But one month after the book comes out there is some big scandal and the Jonas Brothers are no longer cool at all - will a teen who picks the book up think you don't know what's what, or think your characters are lame or unreal, because of this immediately dated aspect.

Now, you could drive yourself crazy with this. I just think that is silly. Write a good enough book and it shouldn't matter. But it can, so it is necessary to ask why you are including something and if it is essential.

So...ask yourself whether the movie/music/technology are needed for the story. If they are, then you go with them and hope for longevity despite any datedness.

But if you are just sprinkling them for flavor, then don't - be stingy on adding anything that isn't needed for meaning/character/plot that could cause a reader to be turned off from the book.

~suki

[sydney]

Thanks guys!

I've decided to minimize the dateable stuff but still keep some of it. I like how the story has the feel of 2009/10 :)

[benbradley]

Twitter.

[STKlingaman]

Now, reading a book now where Menudo was the MC's obsession and crush wouldn't maybe effect a contemporary teen from connecting - mainly because they don't know who Menudo is. - BY SUKI

have a crush on soup for hang overs?
or am I dating myself?

[suki]

Now, reading a book now where Menudo was the MC's obsession and crush wouldn't maybe effect a contemporary teen from connecting - mainly because they don't know who Menudo is. - BY SUKI

have a crush on soup for hang overs?
or am I dating myself?

ROTF - No, not the soup, the Boy Band. Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menudo_%28band%29

But thank you for (sort of) making the point that really dated stuff is less an issue (once confusion corrected) than recently dated...

~suki

[Krintar]

I guess if I really were very worried, I could change everything that might get dated... except for one.
They go to see a movie that's in theaters right now (500 Days of Summer) and stuff happens at the theater. Do I have to take the scene out?
I, personally, would not use this movie. Just say they go see an indie film. If stuff in the movie is important to what happens in your book, just describe it in vague terms and allude to the film, but don't say what it is. Something about this just seems way too specific when it really doesn't need to be.
Also keep in mind that by the time someone's reading your book, that movie will be long gone from theaters. If you don't mind the book explicitly taking place in late 2009, that's fine, but it had better be a conscious decision rather than an accident.

[sydney]

Also keep in mind that by the time someone's reading your book, that movie will be long gone from theaters. If you don't mind the book explicitly taking place in late 2009, that's fine, but it had better be a conscious decision rather than an accident.

Yeah, I decided to take Katie's advice. I changed it to an indie film and had the MC so disinterested he didn't remember what it was called lol
Not that I don't like indie films :) It just works for his personality.

[Cliff Face]

I just know that by the time my MS is up to scratch and ready to be published, suddenly we'll have teleporters and alchemy or something, which will really screw me over.

Of course, I could include teleporters and alchemy in the book, but then they wouldn't be invented by the time my book is in stores.

The future is a vicious cycle...

[maestrowork]

Any contemporary references are going to become dated -- it's just a matter of time. But why would you care? If you're fortunate enough that your books are still being read 20 years from now, then more power to you. Otherwise, who cares anyway?

Don't sweat it. I think it's better to have a book about 2010 and become "dated" in 2025 than having a book about 2035 and read completely "hokey" in the REAL 2035. I still chuckle at the Pan Am spaceship and references in 2001: Space Odyssey.

[sydney]

Any contemporary references are going to become dated -- it's just a matter of time. But why would you care? If you're fortunate enough that your books are still being read 20 years from now, then more power to you. Otherwise, who cares anyway?

Don't sweat it. I think it's better to have a book about 2010 and become "dated" in 2025 than having a book about 2035 and read completely "hokey" in the REAL 2035. I still chuckle at the Pan Am spaceship and references in 2001: Space Odyssey.

I had always thought references were a good thing because they reflect the times and the intended audience can relate to them. But then I suddenly started seeing all this date stuff and I got worried and curious.

I'm trying not to sweat it lol It's working... ish.

[maestrowork]

The idea of "dating" is that some people believe contemporary fiction should stay contemporary all the time, meaning in 2035 they should be able to read the story and feel it reflects the society they live in at the time. So if you talked about some pop star or songs or movie or slangs, etc. it would feel dated in 2035. Those references are relevant to the current time line but it will "date" your book to, say, 2010. That's the argument.

Personally, I don't write pure "contemporary" stuff that is date-less. My novels are usually set in a specific time. Some of my short stories are kind of "timeless" and I keep my references to the minimum. For example, I don't do "email" or "tweets" or Facebook, or something like that. I have people using the phone since I think 20 years from now it's safe to think that we will still be using some kind of phones. I also don't mention specific computer operating systems like Windows XP, etc. "Computer" is just fine. So, yeah, there are ways to avoid being too specific that you date your work.

But the question is, does it matter? Does it matter if people read your work 20 years from now and think, "Oh, this piece is so 2009!" ?

[blacbird]

References to engineers using slide rules. Ranks up there with scribes using wedge-styluses on soft clay tablets.

caw

[Lady Ice]

The Famous Five series is dated but they're still enjoyable.

If the book is a YA book, being outdated is not great. Frequent references to the hipness of the Spice Girls might put off potential readers. Remarking how cool it is that someone has a video player dates a work.

If you want your book to be set at a certain time, feel free to put in references. Just don't make it look like you're trying to be really hip.

[john barnes on toast]

This issue is the height of pettiness.

I don't worry about it and wish nobody else would either.

They say a book is supposed to take a person to some other time or place, but agents somehow think that you can't ever have someone talk about what's actually going on at that time and place.

It makes no sense.

Have to disagree.

I really dislike writing that strives to be so 'now'.

Casual cultural references are of little significance, but the problem is when the writer makes being contemporary somehow integral to the essence of the story. You often see this with aspiring writers, and a proliferation of uber-contemporary references is the single greatest signpost.
The obvious downside is that all the information soon becomes irrelevant at best, or even embarrassing.

Even more so than that, my issue is that it makes your writing small. In the grand scheme of things, mobile phones, ipods, etc, mean fuck all.
Whatever area you're writing in: commercial fiction, genre, literary, the best examples of those books are the the ones that still say something about the human condition. Knowing what MP3 players we use doesn't do that.

[kaitie]

Man, mine's totally dated. It takes place in 2007. ;) The thing is, it's in part a reflection of the atmosphere and distrust in the country and the timing is important. I kind of play with it, though. I enjoy putting in references to things like the iPhone being released. Maybe other people would be turned off by it, but I hope it gets a laugh or smile.

[SarahMacManus]

I read a lot of mainstream and literary fiction and the technique that I have noticed (and use myself) is to create your OWN cultural references; your own movies, rock stars, movie stars, trends, etc., that are generic enough to fit into pretty much any decade since 1960, and then give them specific qualites that fit in with the theme/plot of the story.

There's no reason to namedrop. Make up a name of a band that one of the characters crushes on, give them their own style, and if they're actually part of the story, then give them their own quirks. There will always be teen heartthrobs and boy bands, does it really matter WHICH ones? Not really, a 14 yo girl could be screaming over Paul McCartney in 1963 or one of those Jonas bros last month. The universal is that 14 yo girls tend to scream over pop stars. The question is Why? and how is this relevant to the story or the character?

Movies - most good contemporary fiction I've read simply describes a generic movie by genre, perhaps mentioning a bit of the plot if it's relevant to the story. Movie classics, on the other hand, don't really date your work that much. If your MC's go to a small indie theatre to watch a Humphrey Bogart retrospective, not only have you not dated them, you also have a better idea of what kind of people they are. Either way, there will always be romantic comedies and murder mysteries and adventures. Look at Indiana Jones, which was just a take off of the old cliff hanger shorts back in the 30's and 40's. What's the universal? People love adventure movies with cocky heros.

Technology is a bit more difficult. I admit, it gives me trouble. So many plot devices have been ruined by the invention of the accessible cell phone. :) Of course batteries can go dead when one is on the run. My suggestion is to break the damn thing as soon as possible. Computers have been around long enough not to be a big problem, and unless you're writing hard sci-fi, there's no reason to include the technical specs in your novel.

All in all, I agree with John Barnes. There are things in human culture that are universals. Roman girls didn't have cell phones, but they probably gossiped about each other's hairstyles and togas just as much as modern girls gossip about flares vs. skinny jeans. Focus on the universals that make humans human.

[motormind]

I keep hearing that this or that will date your work.

Things like words usually do that.

So many plot devices have been ruined by the invention of the accessible cell phone. Of course batteries can go dead when one is on the run. My suggestion is to break the damn thing as soon as possible.

I usually let supernatural phenomenons deal with that.

[James D. Macdonald]

Captain Jack Harkness will date your work.

Captain Jack will date anything. He's very open-minded.

[Salis]

Captain Jack Harkness will date your work.

Captain Jack will date anything. He's very open-minded.

They should have kept him confined to DW. Torchwood was a train wreck.

[benbradley]

I recently read John Cramer's "Twistor" (hard SF, I really enjoyed it) set in the "near future" of perhaps a year or two ahead of when it was published (1989) or written. For some reason he had to name the make and model of several computers used by various characters (okay, these descriptions do help make the story more "real" than using generic names and descriptions, or they did at the time of publishing), and it was a bit annoying to see the fictional "Macintosh III" model mentioned. He also mentions one or two online services (bitnet?) that were almost obsolete at publishing - the Internet had already been around for years when the book was published, and even before then any online science college professors likely would have been using its precursor, Arpanet. But now I'm excessively dissecting the novel...
References to engineers using slide rules. Ranks up there with scribes using wedge-styluses on soft clay tablets.

caw
The guy in this pic needs a couple of holsters - one for the blaster in his left hand, though admittedly he may be holding it out ready to fire in an instant, but his right hand is on a ladder rung, and there's that thing he's holding in his mouth...
http://sliderulemuseum.com/Ephemera/AstoundingScienceFiction_Feb1959_artist_FrankKelly Freas.jpg

Many more pics here:
http://sliderulemuseum.com/SR_Ephemera.htm

And now here's the gratuitous Youtube video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk) (skip ahead to 14 minutes or so for the relevant portion).

As an aside, I recall some of the earlier Macintosh models - the Mac SE used the original 68000 microprocessor (or was it a 68010, some slight variant), but the then top-of-the-line Mac II used the more powerful 68020. When an upgrade of the Mac II was introduced using the even more powerful 68030 processor, the new model was named the Mac IIx. An updated Mac SE using the 68030 was then introduced, however Apple was notoriously inconsistent in their model names, as the new model was named the Mac SE30.

[Dark Angel]

Approx. thirty years from now some kids going to read a book that came out in 2009 about two half-naked girls hiding in the closet trying to get away from the serial killer and that kid who's reading the book will probably think: 'why don't you just teleport the f-k out of there?'

[sleepsheep]

Any contemporary references are going to become dated -- it's just a matter of time. But why would you care? If you're fortunate enough that your books are still being read 20 years from now, then more power to you. Otherwise, who cares anyway?


How true. If your books are still being read 20 years from now, the period references that now appear to date your novel will, at that point, will seem like clever and insightful historical easter eggs. It's not an awful outcome, I reckon.

[eyeblink]

The Famous Five series is dated but they're still enjoyable.

If the book is a YA book, being outdated is not great. Frequent references to the hipness of the Spice Girls might put off potential readers.

Up to a point. I'm not convinced that musical references necessarily date a work too much, not even in YA fiction. If the film Bandslam is anything to go by, a modern high-schooler can have an indepth knowledge of 60s-70s rock music and play a Velvet Underground track to a potential date. Yes, some people listen to whatever is new and current and on the radio/TV, but others - with maybe a more indepth interest in music - will listen to older stuff. One poster on AW is a Jefferson Airplane fan who has just turned 20, and I've seen interviewed a 19-year-old girl whose favourite band is The Doors. Back when I was 18-19, I was swapping tapes of Beatles and Dylan albums that were first released when I was a toddler.

I've spotted references to 60s music in quite a few contemporary YA novels - to a Beatles track ("Blackbird") in Jenny Downham's Before I Die, for example.

Popular music does have a way of lasting in people's memories. With the Internet it's also a lot easier to access it nowadays.

Another example - Siobhan Dowd's YA novel Bog Child (published 2008, set in 1983) has a passing reference to Olga Korbut. You don't NEED to know who she was to understand the scene - and even if you don't know who she was it's very easy these days to find out, as you just need to visit Wikipedia or Google.

I'm someone who likes a novel or story to be set somewhere and somewhen, unless you're going for a deliberate effect of abstraction or vagueness. Most novelists don't, not intentionally at least.

[maestrowork]

No matter what you do, something is going to date the work. Cell phones? We didn't have them just 20 years ago, and what makes you think we'll have them in 20 years? Mail? Email? Reading books? Listening to music (on what? CD? Digital music players?) Computers as we know them now? And someone mentioned boy band (boy bands are so 90s!) Styles of music?

The thing is, if you make everything up or only use very generic references, your work would appear generic. That's fine for short stories, but if you write contemporary novels, eventually your readers would say, "which universe does this belong to?"

Books have an easier time than movies to stay fresh, and movies set in a specific time (such as WWII, for example) also have easier time to stay fresh than most contemporary/sci fi pieces. Watching Raiders of the Lost Ark now would be fine -- still very enjoyable and time-relevant. But try watching, say, Pretty Woman and you will spot all kinds of "old stuff" (was that a "brick" cell phone Richard Gere was using?)

But unless you really try to avoid any types of contemporary references (technology, modes of communication, transportation, etc.) sooner or later you will still be stuck in the time it was written. You can't avoid it.

Instead, focus on the story itself and make it timeless that way. People in 2035 will forgive that the book was written in 2010 but appreciate the universal truth (there's a reason why To Kill a Mockingbird and Hemingway's novels are still read these days).

[kaitie]

Captain Jack Harkness will date your work.

Captain Jack will date anything. He's very open-minded.

:roll:

[Darzian]

2010 used to sound so future-ish and yet it's just a few months away.

[KTC]

I don't know what everybody is talking about here. it's quite stumping. every book should be dated by the things you choose to include in its pages. your book should be steadfast in a date and time. i like reading literature because it takes me to different times and places. things will become dated, yes...and so they should. the alternative is generic dreck that sticks to nothing. when i throw words on a wall i want them to fucking stick there. time and place are important...you should date your work.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Meh, I don't try to avoid dating my work when I write contemporary stuff. I state the year, usually. Otherwise, 20 years from now, people will be getting confused wondering why my characters don't have *insert technology not yet invented*. I read a novel recently and was getting totally confused by some of the stuff going on until I flipped to the front and looked at the original copywrite date. 1987. Oh, that explains the lack of cellphones! :D

One of the most 'dated' books I can think of is 1984. I mean, look at the title, lol! But people still read it and love it because, dates aside, its message and brilliance are timeless.

P.S. I'm 22 and love Jefferson Airplane. :)

[Clair Dickson]

I think this discussion overlaps with the issue of name/brand dropping. Some is generally okay. My students still love Bob Marley (and these are high school kids, today) but they also know High School Musical. They don't know Alfred Hitchcock, but they do know Quentin Tarantino.

When I read an old story, such as something by Raymond Chandler, I catch the references to things long gone. No one drives Hudson's or Packards anymore (unless it's a classic car cruise, etc.) Too many references can make is hard to understand. Personally, I temper such a reference with other context clues so that years from now (or just plain unfamiliar readers!) can still understand what I'm saying.

Everything has a time and a place. I mean, if you believe sci-fi shows/ movies, no one will be wearing blue jeans in the future. (And usually the sci-fi non-uniform clothes are rather unfortunate in design or style.) But will that really be the case? Now-a-days jeans are very common and very popular. It's the rare person, in the US at least, who doesn't wear jeans.

Depending on what effect you're gong for, and keeping in mind that too many pop-culture references can make a story difficult to follow for a reader unfamiliar with those references, use the level of cultural references you see fit. My characters listen to specific music, watch specific channels, but see non-specific movies and TV shows. They may eat specific food but drive non-specific cars. As necessary by the story AND by the character. If a character ONLY drinks Diet Pepsi, now it's a character quirk and saying 'diet cola' just isn't the same.

[Lady Ice]

Your work only becomes dated if you're obsessed with being hip.