How much love is too much?

[maestrowork]

Judg's thread prompted me think on my own WIP. I write love stories (as opposed to "romance" by the way) set against cultural issues. But it's not always easy to write love, because inherently love is universal but subjective, and we don't always know where the line is. What is "cute" to someone maybe "get a room" for someone else. Often I find myself cooling things off or backing off from the lovey-doveyness....

How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?

I remember watching the movie The Notebook and thinking, "I can't stand this. What's with all the swans and rain?" But apparently, millions of people loved that book and movie. And I think about all the greatest love stories that range from cheesy (Love Story) to melodramatic (Gone With the Wind) and sublime (Casablanca). So what is too much? And what is too little?

[Danthia]

Trust your gut. If you feel you've crossed a line, back up. If you feel it's good, run with it. All you can do is write the book that works for you. You have no control over what other people will think, so it's a waste of energy worrying about it :) Write the story you want to write and hope it finds its audience. That's all any of us can do.

[firedrake]

I write love stories too, rather than romance.

I try as hard as I can to 'keep it real'. I have an inbuilt mushy-meter which stops me from going too over the top. I'll write something and think, "No, people don't talk like that, even when they're crazy in love." I think it helps if the writer has been through the 'romantic mill' as it were and experienced the ups and downs of love, the first heady rush, the contentment, the agony of "does he? doesn't he?", the first raging argument, the stuck-in-the-rut phase and the crash and burn of a relationship that should've never happened in the first place.

I also agree that one reader's gooey icky lovey dovey stuff is another reader's "nah, where's the lurve?" It's down to personal taste. I'll happily read stuff right across the spectrum, depending on what mood I'm in.

I hope that makes sense.

[mscelina]

Every story has its own voice, and that includes love. Depending on when and where your story is set, that voice can hit over the top chewiness (bodice-rippers) or an almost clinical kind of reserve. It's the kind of thing only the writer can determine, really. Personally, I like that slightly out of place kind of romanticism, something beyond or that goes against the popular mindset of my book's setting, era, or genre. I want the romance in my books to be different, and my inner *ewwwwwww* meter is pretty trigger-happy.

[barbilarry]

I am having problems with this very thing right now. I have written in the past in the romance genre, which has a few limits as to what is acceptable. I want to go deeper into the feelings and actions of my MCs. I want it to be as close to erotic as I can get and still keep it in the mystery/suspense genre. I definitely don't want it to be cheesy. Nor do I want it to be too melodramatic. What I do want it to be is memorable and HOT! I just don't know where to draw the line. To me the subjective part is what throws me. As the author, what I think of as loving or hot or even believable is up for grabs. I know I didn't answer your question, but just wanted to let you know I am struggling with this right now too.
Jane

[raburrell]

How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?
To me, what subtracts the melo- from melodrama is the level of characterization. For that reason, Gone With The Wind isn't melodrama to me, as both Rhett and Scarlett are vivid characters. (Toss in milksops like Ashley and that's when the melodrama comes in). Stated differently, melodrama is when character can't rise to the occasion.

The swans in The Notebook are cheesy, but by then, the reader (viewer) is so enamored of Noah and Allie that they're grateful for a rare moment of joy between them.

I'm running into something similar in my own edits at the moment - after a decade of going through hell to be together, with one last confrontation with the bad guy looming on the horizon, they're on a date at a rooftop restaurant. If I do it wrong, it's a kerklunk moment of fluff in an otherwise dark love story. If I do it right, they're desperately stealing a moment of normalcy back from fate.

So... back to it then.

[Phaeal]

What turns you off will turn your ideal readers off.

Here's the twist. If you're too cool for school, you'll get the too cool for school crowd, but not the vast melodrama and/or sugar crowd that keeps romance the leading fictional genre. Which is cool. The smaller crowds need reading material, too.

I find that melodrama works best in an agitated setting. Take Casablanca -- it's hard to go over the top in the middle of a world war. Same effect worked for Gone with the Wind -- the Civil War and its aftermath lend themselves to big story and big emotion. It also works with big characters on a small stage, a la Tennessee Williams.

How to find the perfect tone for a love story? Study the love stories that work for you. For me, it's Jane Austen's novels, where it's all in the rich nuances of the everyday and the aftermath of explosions generally detonated well offstage. No sugar, low melodrama, high emotional impact.

[SummerSpring]

How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?

As an avid soap watcher, I can tell you even the best love stories on soap operas are the less melodramatic ones.

Unless you have your pairing going against their family's wishes, falling into comas after being kidnapped while running from a serial killer, and decide to marry despite the fact your female lead is pregnant with her ex's/rapist's baby, only to have them make it to the altar and learn they are actually brother and sister..... well, I doubt you really need to worry about going into soap opera territory. :D

[ideagirl]

To me, what subtracts the melo- from melodrama is the level of characterization. For that reason, Gone With The Wind isn't melodrama to me, as both Rhett and Scarlett are vivid characters. (Toss in milksops like Ashley and that's when the melodrama comes in). Stated differently, melodrama is when character can't rise to the occasion.

That's a really great way of looking at it. Thanks.

[CaroGirl]

Make sure your characters are real, flawed human beings. The sickly sweetness comes from two perfect people, who are perfect for each other, in love, love, love. Ick.

[Dicentra P]

Is the melodrama appropriate for the character, in the circumstances that he/she is in? My grandparents bickered through 40 years of marriage but she fell apart when he died. Even if I was writing the story of their youth and early years together it wouldn't be lovey-dovey but they did love each other. A character who has a teddy bear collection at 40 has a different level style of expression of love.

[ishtar'sgate]

And I think about all the greatest love stories that range from cheesy (Love Story) to melodramatic (Gone With the Wind) and sublime (Casablanca). So what is too much? And what is too little?
I think you have your answer right here. People don't all enjoy the same thing. Like the old saying - You can please some of the people all of the time, all the people some of the time but not all the people all the time.
If you write it the way you feel it, I'm sure you will find an audience.

[maestrowork]

A
Unless you have your pairing going against their family's wishes, falling into comas after being kidnapped while running from a serial killer, and decide to marry despite the fact your female lead is pregnant with her ex's/rapist's baby, only to have them make it to the altar and learn they are actually brother and sister..... well, I doubt you really need to worry about going into soap opera territory. :D

Damn! * scrambling to rewrite *

;)

[Kitty Pryde]

For me, two people in a novel who have the time to lay about cooing and snuggling and calling each other shmoopy, or whatever, isn't a good love story. It's a reenactment of the goofiest parts of high school.

For me what makes a great love story is the lengths to which two people will go for one another--be it sacrifice, something hard, something scary, something that is challenging for them in particular, something they loathe, something that takes a really long time, anything. So instead of a gooey declaration of love, the love is channeled into doing stuff, and that rarely enters melodramatic territory. I think.

[Renee Collins]

There's an audience for everything, because people are so varied in what they believe love should feel like. For example, you called Gone with the Wind melodramatic, but I have an older sister who thinks that it is the best love story ever written.

So really, go with what you feel works, and there will be people who love it.

[JoNightshade]

I was going to say it's all about your audience, but having read everyone else's replies I'd amend that to - think about what you like to write and read in terms of romance. That's your audience.

I'm more of the anti-romantic type. I adore love stories where the lovers are cold and distant... I will wait for that ONE LINE conveying emotion and I will read it over and over again. I'm probably a very small audience, though. :)

[Lady Ice]

or example, you called Gone with the Wind melodramatic, but I have an older sister who thinks that it is the best love story ever written.

There's nothing wrong with melodrama! It's just a style of theatre/film/book. It is intentionally extreme. Nowadays we shy away from showing any extremes because it might be 'melodramatic'.

What you want to beware is the anti-climax. They get together...and then what? You can end up having to have them go at each other every time the story gets boring.
If the story is purely about x loving y, it will just be trashy romance. I had this problem in one book I was writing. A love scene was getting too mushy/smutty so I explored one of the themes, which was the culture clash between an inexperienced older English woman and a younger experienced American man. It made the love story more poignant and upped the stakes (he loves her; she may only feel lust for him).

Watch 'Brief Encounter'.

[Karen Junker]

As long as Heather Locklear isn't cast as the female lead in the movie, you're good to go.

[panda]

It's like asking how much chocolate is too much? lol, there can never be enough. :)

Love is liquid nitrogen, it must be handled with kid gloves, it is a dangerous material you are working with. It has the effect of making a story into a classic or turning a masterpiece into a dimestore novel. Love is twofold.

Your story doesn't have to be loud, sometimes the best loves are the quiet ones, the ones that don't move mountains, but simply stay.

I tend to have this problem too. You don't want to sound too flowery or go overboard with literary imagery either. I guess put yourself in the story, is the speech something you would say to a girl, or does it not ring true. I think the love should be sprinkled throughout, love comes softly, which is a title of a book, but true of how love works.

It builds like a song, it has staccato jarring moments, and it has crescendo moments, that make all the conflict worth it. It's an envious state to be in, if you envy your character's love, I'd say it was pretty strongly written because it resonates.

BTW, As much as I love Ryan Gosling, I did not like the notebook either, but I loved Lars and the Real Girl.

[JulieHowe]

For me, the tension is what makes a great love story, throwing obstacles in the path of the couple. That's what made the original An Affair to Remember such a great movie.

[Pepper]

I write love stories (as opposed to "romance" by the way)...

How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?

The sickly sweetness comes from two perfect people, who are perfect for each other, in love, love, love. Ick.

I tend to think about the movies. Even most action movies have some sort of love story at the middle of it (albeit some are seriously lacking).

The difference between a love story and the icky gag-up-your-breakfast-sickly-sweet-romance is like CaroGirl said. If your two characters are perfect for each other and do nothing but focus on how completely, madly in love they are with each other and how they "couldn't live not one moment apart", then you may have a problem. People can be in love without spouting poetry and fluttering eyelashes until they threaten to fall off.

If a female character enters the scene and your reader can instantly tell that THAT is going to be the love interest, you've probably already made it too mushy. I think that both characters in a love story should be strong lead characters in their own right. If the only reason you've got two characters instead of one is so that they can fall in love, you might need to revise. If you've got two characters in place simply to have the love story, you've probably crossed the line. :D

This is coming from a girl who isn't particularly mushy in real life though (I'm the person who wrinkles her nose at the teenagers 'making out' in the mall, wishing they'd 'get a room'), so take with a grain of salt. ;)

[ellisnation]

I think it's important to decide what kind of lovers your characters are. If melodrama fits your characters, it will fit the story, and the reader will probably be okay with it. My first BF was a sap. He'd leave roses at my window, cards for no reason, send flowers to my work. But it suited him. My husband, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. He actually brought me a gift from the drugstore once...a pair of socks. No kidding. Socks. But it was sweet because he thought of me and my cold tootsies.

Teenage lovers can be all "Omg, I can't live without you" because young love is so desperate and intense. Or forbidden love can be overtly and explicitly sexy because hey-- taboo is hot!

Sparks brought the swans into the notebook because it was being told from the pov of an old man. Old people really like birds. So it worked.

[Chasing the Horizon]

For me, my characters dictate how mushy lovey-dovey a story is. I have relationships in different projects which run the gamut from completely over the top to very subtle. IMO, the subtle loves are much easier to write than the dramatic ones. It's easier to draw attention to subtle actions and thoughts than to keep my drama king and his queen from making a serious scene so melodramatic it becomes funny.

As a reader I have no real preference, as long as it's done well. A LOT of books don't get it right, though. So much of writing convincing romance is dependent on emphasis and word choice.

How's that for not helpful?

[panda]

My first BF was a sap. He'd leave roses at my window, cards for no reason, send flowers to my work.

Is he single, lol?

So much of writing convincing romance is dependent on emphasis and word choice.


Also I'd scale back. Less is more with romance.

[Telstar]

Is he single, lol?


Same question :)

[Cassiopeia]

I--uh--kinda hated The Notebook. I mean, well--okay I hated it. I'd rather poke my eyes out than watch it again.

I've read The Pacific Between, I say go with your gut, Ray. You did very well with your first novel.

[maestrowork]

Teenage lovers can be all "Omg, I can't live without you" because young love is so desperate and intense. Or forbidden love can be overtly and explicitly sexy because hey-- taboo is hot!


Also a good point. My MCs started off as teenagers so there was this "omg" thing but then they matured through the story and they evolved... So in a way, I am keeping it real here. And they definitely have a taboo going on: they're interracial in 1940s!

Sparks brought the swans into the notebook because it was being told from the pov of an old man. Old people really like birds. So it worked.

Perhaps. It still feels cheesy for me, especially the movie version. A couple of swans are fine, but a gaggle of hundreds of them?

[motormind]

Perhaps. It still feels cheesy for me, especially the movie version. A couple of swans are fine, but a gaggle of hundreds of them?

Where I live swans were regarded as pests a few years ago. I once saw literally hundreds of them in a field one day, but it didn't strike me as particularly romantic.

As for love: you never can have enough, especially when it's between women. Love is also best when combined with copious amounts of lust.

[panda]

Where I live swans were regarded as pests a few years ago. I once saw literally hundreds of them in a field one day, but it didn't strike me as particularly romantic.


I used to live by swans, they are the meanest birds ever! And they can be really scary because they're huge with sharp beaks and really aggressive.

[Cassiopeia]

And just so you know, I wasn't kidding, Ray, when I said I'd always keep your book, here's a photo for you of the bookcase in my family room. Look at the titles. :)
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/Cassiopeias_photos/bookshelf.jpg

[KTC]

I'm re-reading Ray's book right now. It's on my desk beside me. (-; (no photo...sorry.)

[backslashbaby]

I am not a romantic sort. I'm more so in real life, but I never pick up a book or movie because of the romance.

That said, I was bowled over by Benny & Joon, Pride and Prejudice, and John Malkovich's character in the end of Dangerous Liasons [actually, only the book, but I forget the char name].

If you can watch Benny & Joon and figure out how on earth a non-romantic girl can adore that love story, you'll be doing very well. I have very little idea why, myself!

[JennW]

I think it's gotta be some internal line that you know if you cross it. And to some readers it may still be, too much. And to others, not enough.

[SarahMacManus]

I write love stories, too. I think you'll find an audience for any level of cheese that you can come up with. I think what matters is how much corn you can tolerate yourself with your picture on the back cover.

I try to match the cheese level to the characters; younger characters are cheesier because of the sheer exhilaration of the experience, my 30-40 somethings are a bit more restrained.

[aadams73]

Every story is different, Ray. But here's what works for me:

I write the scene. I walk away. I come back and reread it. If I flinch, I know I need to tone it down.

[motormind]

I used to live by swans, they are the meanest birds ever! And they can be really scary because they're huge with sharp beaks and really aggressive.

When I was little I got chased around by a huge one, when I went ashore after a solitary canoe-trip. Maybe I landed next to its nest. It was a fury of hissing, croaking and flapping wings--very intimidating when you're little.

[Raphee]

Ray, going by your initial post, your novel is apparently character based--no doubt, culture is a theme, or a setting.
Your characters shall decide how lovey dovey they are, or is it one sided love, or lusty, or what have you.

[panda]

When I was little I got chased around by a huge one, when I went ashore after a solitary canoe-trip. Maybe I landed next to its nest. It was a fury of hissing, croaking and flapping wings--very intimidating when you're little.

Or when you're 20 lol. :D

[lucidzfl]

Well interracial in the 40s should NEVER elicit "get a room" mentality. They would almost assuredly be hiding their relationship from everyone around them right?

That might make them double affectionate when away from prying eyes.

[maestrowork]

Thanks everyone.

While I started the thread with my WIP in mind, I do want to hear what everyone has to say in general, about love stories, or stories with a love story in them. Personally I think stories about love or relationships are some of the hardest to do right because it's so subjective. What's cheesy to someone may be the greatest love story ever told to another, or what is subtle and powerful could be boring and cold to someone else. So is there a line? If so, where is that line? That's what I'm interested in...

[KTC]

Thanks everyone.

While I started the thread with my WIP in mind, I do want to hear what everyone has to say in general, about love stories, or stories with a love story in them. Personally I think stories about love or relationships are some of the hardest to do right because it's so subjective. What's cheesy to someone may be the greatest love story ever told to another, or what is subtle and power could be boring and cold to someone else. So is there a line? If so, where is that line? That's what I'm interested in...

Well said, Ray. I love literary fiction with love stories in them. But I know what you mean. There is sometimes the awareness that a line has been crossed. It's that moan moment where it becomes a bit cheesy. A very fine line...and a line that changes with each reader. I don't know how to describe where that moving line is. I just know it when I see it. I'm very forgiving though, as far as this goes. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and allow some of the love story to move beyond what would actually happen in real life. That's not an answer, I know...but I suppose an agreement with your observation about that line.

[Lady Ice]

Basically if your book is solely about the love between Mary and Dave, it's bound to be bad. Good love stories in books are heightened by their context. It has to be about more than love.

[lucidzfl]

Basically if your book is solely about the love between Mary and Dave, it's bound to be bad. Good love stories in books are heightened by their context. It has to be about more than love.

Sounds like if its being set in the 40s and they're interracial, theres a ton of context there.

[Lady Ice]

Don't forget to at least touch on the political, otherwise it'll look like a fancy backdrop.

Is there more to the story than an inter-racial couple in the 40's? Because that's been done rather a lot.

[KTC]

Don't forget to at least touch on the political, otherwise it'll look like a fancy backdrop.

Is there more to the story than an inter-racial couple in the 40's? Because that's been done rather a lot.

Every story has been done rather a lot. I'm sure Ray has it seated more deeply than the shallow depths of a love (only) story. He is a capable storyteller. I don't think this is the question.

[maestrowork]

Sounds like if its being set in the 40s and they're interracial, theres a ton of context there.

You bet. ;)

[maestrowork]

Don't forget to at least touch on the political, otherwise it'll look like a fancy backdrop.

Is there more to the story than an inter-racial couple in the 40's? Because that's been done rather a lot.

Actually, I'm not worried about all that stuff. I have plenty of context, historical, cultural, political or otherwise. And the story is definitely NOT all about "X loves Y."

My challenge here is to keep the love story real and approachable, while not overtly focusing on it (constantly reminding the readers "oh she yearns for him" -- gag! People simple don't live their lives constantly thinking about that stuff unless they're 15 and sheltered) or letting the other things such as the contexts overshadow it either. It's a balancing act and a challenge.

[Rarri]

Well said, Ray. I love literary fiction with love stories in them. But I know what you mean. There is sometimes the awareness that a line has been crossed. It's that moan moment where it becomes a bit cheesy. A very fine line...and a line that changes with each reader. I don't know how to describe where that moving line is. I just know it when I see it. I'm very forgiving though, as far as this goes. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and allow some of the love story to move beyond what would actually happen in real life. That's not an answer, I know...but I suppose an agreement with your observation about that line.

This is the important part, i think. In a weird way, it reminds me of the 'truth being stranger than fiction' and all that. The spectrum of love and sappiness is greater in the real world than we allow it to be in fiction.

If it's any consolation Ray, i enjoyed TPB and thought you did well in conveying the different strands of love (ok, that wasn't meant to sound as lame as it did). No picture either, i've given TPB to my mother!

[Samantha's_Song]

I, too, write love stories and not romances. I personally think that the love has to be done in the same as any other thing in the story, it has to come from the characters themselves to be believable. If a character would actually say or do gushy stuff, then it's not crossing the line.
Examples: In one novel I have a character who is very childlike, she has also been abused as a child, so she's quite guarded with her emotions until she knows she can trust someone, then she is quite gushy at times.
I have another character who thinks all men are bastards (sorry Lucid :D), she would never say anything gushy, in fact quite the opposite. She tells her male interest that romance is for fools and laughs at loveydovey stuff. Even in the end, on the very last page, when she finally admits she does love him, it's done in a very matter of fact way and has sexual innuendo and giggles thrown in. That's about as near to gushy that she will ever get.


How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?

I remember watching the movie The Notebook and thinking, "I can't stand this. What's with all the swans and rain?" But apparently, millions of people loved that book and movie. And I think about all the greatest love stories that range from cheesy (Love Story) to melodramatic (Gone With the Wind) and sublime (Casablanca). So what is too much? And what is too little?

[KTC]

This is the important part, i think. In a weird way, it reminds me of the 'truth being stranger than fiction' and all that. The spectrum of love and sappiness is greater in the real world than we allow it to be in fiction.

If it's any consolation Ray, i enjoyed TPB and thought you did well in conveying the different strands of love (ok, that wasn't meant to sound as lame as it did). No picture either, i've given TPB to my mother!

Oh boy. Never tell the author you lent out their book. Always lie. Say, "I also bought my mother a copy!"

(-;

[maestrowork]

Oh boy. Never tell the author you lent out their book. Always lie. Say, "I also bought my mother a copy!"

(-;

LOL. I just love it when people like my book enough to let others read it, too... I like to be read. But if I could make another buck in the process, all the better. I need to feed my mocha frap habit...

[panda]

Actually, I'm not worried about all that stuff. I have plenty of context, historical, cultural, political or otherwise. And the story is definitely NOT all about "X loves Y."

My challenge here is to keep the love story real and approachable, while not overtly focusing on it (constantly reminding the readers "oh she yearns for him" -- gag! People simple don't live their lives constantly thinking about that stuff unless they're 15 and sheltered) or letting the other things such as the contexts overshadow it either. It's a balancing act and a challenge.

Hm, shouldn't you be advising us on, you're the published one. :)

You've already pointed out too much melodrama is bad, but saying and doing are two different things. I struggle with this. Keep your professions of love to one or two, (ala Darcy and Elizabeth), keep your professions of love unique, how can you say you love that person that's unique to their love story, without saying i love you. Just like in real life, ok, I've got it. I'm loved. But show me that you love me. Show with the character's actions. Women and I'm sure men don't want to hear flowery speeches waxing on about how his/her eyes are like emeralds, because that isn't love that's the trimmings of love. If you want examples, good romance I can think of off the top of my head I like Time Traveler's Wife

[Rarri]

Oh boy. Never tell the author you lent out their book. Always lie. Say, "I also bought my mother a copy!"

(-;

Ah, grow up with writers and you become immune to their powers (you also develop a talent to tune out their voice as soon as the words: agent, literary, publisher, title and word count are mentioned). ;)

(On the other hand, though there's a good chunk of world between Ray and me ... surely his super-powers wouldn't reach so far?!)

LOL. I just love it when people like my book enough to let others read it, too... I like to be read. But if I could make another buck in the process, all the better. I need to feed my mocha frap habit...

Ha ha, my mother's just started shopping on Amazon herself. I'm waiting for their book sales to explode.

[maestrowork]

Hm, shouldn't you be advising us on, you're the published one. :)


Published or not, I have much to learn, still.


You've already pointed out too much melodrama is bad, but saying and doing are two different things. I struggle with this. Keep your professions of love to one or two, (ala Darcy and Elizabeth), keep your professions of love unique, how can you say you love that person that's unique to their love story, without saying i love you. Just like in real life, ok, I've got it. I'm loved. But show me that you love me. Show with the character's actions. Women and I'm sure men don't want to hear flowery speeches waxing on about how his/her eyes are like emeralds, because that isn't love that's the trimmings of love. If you want examples, good romance I can think of off the top of my head I like Time Traveler's Wife

Constant profession of love definitely grates on me. On the other hand, if the characters are too subtle they could also appear to be "cold" and the relationship "unconvincing." I remember hearing people criticizing Cecilia in Atonement for being a cold-hearted bitch and wondering why Robbie loved her so much anyway. That's the thing, some people believe if you don't utter "I love you" every two seconds it's not passion. That's why the whole love thing is so subjective.

Obviously, I have to go by my characters and see what floats their boats. Sometimes I'm just not sure.

[panda]

Published or not, I have much to learn, still.
You are wise beyond your years.

On the other hand, if the characters are too subtle they could also appear to be "cold" and the relationship "unconvincing." I remember hearing people criticizing Cecilia in Atonement for being a cold-hearted bitch and wondering why Robbie loved her so much anyway.

Ok, atonement was a best-seller and made into an oscar-winning movie. Sometimes you can't go by the response a few people, sometimes you have to go by the overall response. He must have been doing something right. Btw, I loved the book and movie, it's language was really the main draw I think.

That's the thing, some people believe if you don't utter "I love you" every two seconds it's not passion. That's why the whole love thing is so subjective.

You can't please everyone. Don't try.

Obviously, I have to go by my characters and see what floats their boats. Sometimes I'm just not sure.

Exactly. If you don't write what is true for you, then it will ring false to readers. Also, if you do want to avoid melodrama it's better to error on the side of subtle.

[Libbie]

I remember watching the movie The Notebook and thinking, "I can't stand this. What's with all the swans and rain?"

I've never tried to write a love story, and I don't really read love stories, either. so I have nothing to add to this thread aside from telling you that this is the best comment ever.

[aadams73]

I loved The Notebook. The movie, at least. I won't read the book because I hate how Nicholas Sparks gets all polly pissy pants when anyone suggests he writes romance novels. Romance novelists write better. He should be flattered to be in such company. :D

[panda]

I loved The Notebook. The movie, at least. I won't read the book because I hate how Nicholas Sparks gets all polly pissy pants when anyone suggests he writes romance novels. Romance novelists write better. He should be flattered to be in such company. :D

That is sad when people who clearly write romance won't even admit to such.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. :)

[maestrowork]

I think there's a certain stigma with "romance" -- at least for men. Men would not hesitate to say they write love stories; in fact, they would even go and say men write the best love stories. But "romance"? Nope.

When my book was shelved under ROMANCE at Borders I cringed. But then I thought: Well, you know what? Romance sells and why not? And of course, those copies moved better than they did at BN (at which they were shelved under Literature, next to Virginia Woolf, no less). In fact, badducky even suggested me to crash the RWA conference in leather jacket and chocolate pants! LOL [I was really tempted, by the way]

[Stew21]

Ray, I just read your post and haven't read the whole thread (I know...bad stew)...


Trust yourself and trust your characters. Let them act in accordance to their personalities. Write the way you write. You're good at what you do and a good judge of words and human nature. You're doubting yourself and you don't need to.

You can do this. (You've done it already). Let yourself do it the way the characters and the writer you (not editor you) want it done.

Have faith, Ray.

[panda]

I think there's a certain stigma with "romance" -- at least for men.

Yes, I can see this as a problem. But romance has a stigma for both gender to overcome. It's the same reaction, "Ohhhh, you write romance"
And I also live with cats and I'm a spinster lol, to keep the stereotype rolling, but I can see how men might not want to admit this, but Nicholas Sparks is still a romance writer lol.



Men would not hesitate to say they write love stories; in fact, they would even go and say men write the best love stories.

Ahem. ;)

When my book was shelved under ROMANCE at Borders I cringed. But then I thought: Well, you know what? Romance sells and why not? And of course, those copies moved better than they did at BN (at which they were shelved under Literature, next to Virginia Woolf, no less). In fact, badducky even suggested me to crash the RWA conference in leather jacket and chocolate pants! LOL [I was really tempted, by the way]

I would not care if my books were shelved under Misc or Trash, they would be at major bookstores lol. That's got to be such a cool feeling.

[SummerSpring]

When my book was shelved under ROMANCE at Borders I cringed. But then I thought: Well, you know what? Romance sells and why not? And of course, those copies moved better than they did at BN (at which they were shelved under Literature, next to Virginia Woolf, no less).

That's interesting that your book was shelved in different places. I assumed the publisher would kind of dictate the genre. Shows what I know, eh?

And I agree with panda. I promise to not complain just as long as it is on a shelf. And sells. And stays there for a very, very long time.

[Raphee]

Ray, The answers you are looking for are not in this thread. They are in your story.

[Ctairo]

Judg's thread prompted me think on my own WIP. I write love stories (as opposed to "romance" by the way) set against cultural issues. But it's not always easy to write love, because inherently love is universal but subjective, and we don't always know where the line is. What is "cute" to someone maybe "get a room" for someone else. Often I find myself cooling things off or backing off from the lovey-doveyness....

How do you know when you have crossed the line to "melodrama" or "icky, sugary" territory? How do you write passion without turning it into a soap opera?

I remember watching the movie The Notebook and thinking, "I can't stand this. What's with all the swans and rain?" But apparently, millions of people loved that book and movie. And I think about all the greatest love stories that range from cheesy (Love Story) to melodramatic (Gone With the Wind) and sublime (Casablanca). So what is too much? And what is too little?

You know, given millions love soap opera, there's nothing wrong with writing that veers into soap opera territory. That said, if soap operas squick you, it sounds like you couldn't write one if you tried. :)

Thanks everyone.

While I started the thread with my WIP in mind, I do want to hear what everyone has to say in general, about love stories, or stories with a love story in them. Personally I think stories about love or relationships are some of the hardest to do right because it's so subjective. What's cheesy to someone may be the greatest love story ever told to another, or what is subtle and powerful could be boring and cold to someone else. So is there a line? If so, where is that line? That's what I'm interested in...

As for appropriate mush levels (that's what you're asking, yes?), I'm with those who say let the characters guide you. If you're being true to them, readers will sense the connection. I say this as someone who hates romance and guess what? Romance has become a component of my current project. Why? The characters wanted it. Which is fine by me because I realize there's so much more to love and commitment than "I would DIE for you! You and me 4EVA!" (*cue rain and swans*) you know?

And given the range of stories you've mentioned, it's clear to me the line shifts daily, yearly, seasonally. Rather than looking at a general line, perhaps consider your audience? Where would the squick level be for those who will read/buy your book? If you're squicked, odds are they'll be squicked too.

[Nateskate]

That's such a tough question. It's the Goldilocks dilema- too hot or too cold can ruin the meal.

I wrestle with this same problem, and not only in romantic parts of the story. There's always this temptation to go too far, vs. not far enough.

And there's a vast difference between the "Romance Genre", where there is a specific formula. In Romance Genre, the fact that there will be a romance is a given. It's expected. It's just a matter of building a plot around that. The M.C is sorting through feelings and people until the point of discovery of true feelings. Of course there are different recipees, but the title of the story is an advertisement for "romance" being a given.

Romance as a part of a complex story is complicated. There's no gaurantee, so you can't forshadow. The reader can't know it's going to work out, or not work out.

In your own story, "The Pacific Between" that was never a given. It was more about the M.C's road to discovery, learning about his father, his family, and roots. The woman of interest is a thread that ties things together. It isn't a promise.

[maestrowork]

In your own story, "The Pacific Between" that was never a given. It was more about the M.C's road to discovery, learning about his father, his family, and roots. The woman of interest is a thread that ties things together. It isn't a promise.

In fact, someone who expected a sweeping romance between Greg and Lian was a bit miffed that the outcome wasn't what she thought. LOL. It goes to show you cannot please everyone.

[Lady Ice]

The danger is that you'll become desperate to prove that X and Y are in love with each other. If you show the behaviour of the two, let the reader make up their mind whether the two are in love or not. You can only control the reader to a certain extent.

[IdiotsRUs]

Late to this thread but oh well

It was said upthread I think - you don't have to ever have the words 'I love you', or any declaration at all - even in a romance ( I don't have them in either of mine for instance)

However the reader should be able to infer from their actions that they love each other. If it's a budding romance, and he normally talks the hind legs off a donkey but can only utter one syllable words when he's around her. Or if he's a complete bastard to everyone else, but is unfailingly nice to her ( see blokey in my sig). If it's an ongoing romance, well then it's just like real life. I don't know my husband loves me because he tells me so. I know because of the little things he does for me, that show he's thinking of me.

Don't tell us they love each other. Show us ;)

ETA: It's too much when I shout 'Oh pass me the sick bucket' :D