America hasn't won a Nobel Prize in Lit since 1993

[dahlfan]

Toni Morrison. What does that say about us? Are we not producing enough good literature?

[motormind]

Toni Morrison.What does that say about us? Are we not producing enough good literature?

Who cares? The Nobel Prize is overrated anyway.

[Cassiopeia]

I don't think it's overrated and I think it's sad we haven't had any since then.

[motormind]

I don't think it's overrated and I think it's sad we haven't had any since then.

I can't recall ever enjoying anything that won a Nobel Prize. So for me personally it's no mark of quality.

[dahlfan]

I can't recall ever enjoying anything that won a Nobel Prize. So for me personally it's no mark of quality.

Not a Sinclair Lewis fan? He's one of my personal literary heroes...what about Steinbeck, you think he was rubbish? Doris Lessing? Toni Morrison?

[Stijn Hommes]

The Nobel Prize can be won by pretty much anyone on the planet, so I don't see how one particular country not winning it for some time is a problem at all. I don't even remember any novels by Nobel winners, so I can't say I find it an important benchmark either.

[motormind]

Not a Sinclair Lewis fan? He's one of my personal literary heroes...what about Steinbeck, you think he was rubbish? Doris Lessing? Toni Morrison?

I am not saying anyone of them is rubbish, but their writing doesn't do anything for me. Sorry!

[Cassiopeia]

If one day someone decided my work was Nobel worthy, I'd probably never stop jumping up and down for joy.

[Priene]

I've read works by nine of the winners since Toni Morrison, and they are all exceptional writers. Which is probably why they won the Nobel Prize.

[maestrowork]

I can't recall ever enjoying anything that won a Nobel Prize. So for me personally it's no mark of quality.

Or maybe it's a sign that American readers don't know anything about quality. Have you thought about that?

I mean, are you seriously saying that Toni Morrison wasn't a great writer just because you didn't enjoy her books as much as, say, the Da Vinci Code?

[maestrowork]

I am not saying anyone of them is rubbish, but their writing doesn't do anything for me. Sorry!

And that's maybe why you're not voting for the Nobel Prize?

[motormind]

And that's maybe why you're not voting for the Nobel Prize?

Heck, it's not like I'm in danger of ever getting one. I wouldn't mind the money, though.

[alleycat]

The Nobel is usually given for one person's body of work (sometimes over decades), so I'm not sure it's a very good measure of a country's current literary worth.

[maestrowork]

The Nobel is usually given for one person's body of work (sometimes over decades), so I'm not sure it's a very good measure of a country's current literary worth.

Can we think of a US person's body of work that is worthy of a Nobel Prize right now? Nomination, anyone?

[maestrowork]

Toni Morrison happens to be one of my all-time favorite authors. So what do I know? I should be reading Twilight.

[alleycat]

Can we think of a US person's body of work that is worthy of a Nobel Prize right now? Nomination, anyone?
One that comes to mind is perhaps Ray Bradbury.

[Priene]

Can we think of a US person's body of work that is worthy of a Nobel Prize right now? Nomination, anyone?

I'd consider Philip Roth and Thomas Pynchon. And, if they were looking for someone unusual, Bob Dylan.

[lkp]

Bob Dylan.

I've read a couple of authors just because they won the Nobel Prize --- Gao Jin and Wislawa Szimborska come to mind. I loved both of them and was so grateful to the Nobel committee for bringing them to my attention. Doris Lessing was an old favourite.

[Wayne K]

One that comes to mind is perhaps Ray Bradbury.
Seconded.

[Priene]

I was going to suggest it was high time Italo Calvino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Calvino) won it. Then I googled him and found he's been dead for twenty-four years. I thought he was just a slow writer.

[Roger J Carlson]

Two thoughts:

1) It also might represent a prejudice against American authors.

2) The United Nations has never had an American Secretary General. Does that mean America is incapable of producing great diplomats?

[mscelina]

I'm sure it has nothing to do with this either. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3120602/Nobel-literature-prize-judge-American-authors-insular-and-ignorant.html)

As the Swedish Academy enters final deliberations for this year's literature award, permanent secretary Horace Engdahl said that writers from the country that produced Philip Roth, John Updike, Ernest Hemingway and F Scott Fitzgerald were "too sensitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the quality of their work.

"Of course there is powerful literature in all big cultures, but you can't get away from the fact that Europe still is the centre of the literary world, not the United States," he said.

"The US is too isolated, too insular. They don't translate enough and don't really participate in the big dialogue of literature. That ignorance is restraining."

Although Mr Engdahl insisted later he had been misunderstood by the Associated Press, with whom he conducted the interview, the chances of the two American authors, Philip Roth and Joyce Carol Oates, thought to be on this year's secret five-person shortlist now look slim

[RedScylla]

The Nobel Prize can be won by pretty much anyone on the planet, so I don't see how one particular country not winning it for some time is a problem at all.

This. There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet and the majority of them don't even speak English. Why should an American be winning the Nobel more often than every 20 years? To simplify the numbers out of the millions and billions, imagine that you've got 70 incredibly talented writers in a room, each one representative of 100 million people on the planet. Only 3 of them would be Americans.

[deserata]

One that comes to mind is perhaps Ray Bradbury.Seconded.
Thirded.

[lkp]

Calvino certainly deserved one. Thinking of other authors who don't write in English, what about Haruki Murakami?

(and I meant Gao Xingjian above)

[James81]

This book won a pulitzer:

http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Wondrous-Life-Oscar-Wao/dp/1594489580#

and it's copywright is 2007.

Pullitzer is more literature/writing specific whereas the nobel prize has so many more dimension to it.

But I'd say a Pulitzer is at least in the same ballpark as a Nobel prize.

[Wayne K]

This. There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet and the majority of them don't even speak English. Why should an American be winning the Nobel more often than every 20 years? To simplify the numbers out of the millions and billions, imagine that you've got 70 incredibly talented writers in a room, each one representative of 100 million people on the planet. Only 3 of them would be Americans.
But...but...we're the greatest country in the world. Didn't you get the memo?

[James81]

This. There are nearly 7 billion people on this planet and the majority of them don't even speak English. Why should an American be winning the Nobel more often than every 20 years? To simplify the numbers out of the millions and billions, imagine that you've got 70 incredibly talented writers in a room, each one representative of 100 million people on the planet. Only 3 of them would be Americans.

And, to be realistic, just because a book wins a prize isn't the ONLY litmus as to whether it's quality.

The book I posted above won the Pulitzer and I couldn't even finish it because I thought it was trash.

[Rarri]

The Nobel prize hasn't been around long enough for every country to have won once, so it seems reasonable that the US doesn't keep winning. I tend to find prize winners (Nobel, Booker etc) a case of either love or hate. I have though, as a result of this thread, discovered Toni Morrison, so i'm off to Amazon.

[Priene]

Calvino certainly deserved one. Thinking of other authors who don't write in English, what about Haruki Murakami?

(and I meant Gao Xingjian above)

Umberto Eco will get one. They'd better hurry up and give one to Yevtushenko before he expires. The list of major Russian writers who haven't won that prize is amazing. Maybe the judges all hate Russia as well as America?

[RedScylla]

But...but...we're the greatest country in the world. Didn't you get the memo?

Maybe...it's been a while since I cleaned off my desk. It might be around here.

[poetinahat]

I read Soul Mountain - Gao Xingjian just didn't ring my bell at all. Oh well.

But maybe this 'trend' has to do with writers from other countries finally getting due consideration?

And yeah, Yevtushenko. From what I read of his work, which is very little.

[maestrowork]

I think it's because we think on the number of American authors over the years as compared to around the world, and we see a much larger number in the US. So it just seems the odds are better with the Americans. Plus, people look at it like the Olympics of literature, and hey, we won more medals than any other countries! But of course, what we don't remember is that American market is more concerned with commercialism and cultural trends -- not that they are bad books, but the focus is different.

It is amazing that some of our greatest literary writers like Updike never made it, though.

I read Soul Mountain - Gao Xingjian just didn't ring my bell at all. Oh well.

a. it could be a cultural thing. I find Chinese literature much different from western in tone, style, themes, storytelling techniques, pace, etc.

b. also the Nobel is about the body of work, not any particular book. Perhaps Gao Xingjian's is simply stunning?

c. also, it could be the fault of the translation. An author is only as good as the person who translates the words... ;)

[Arkie]

Can we think of a US person's body of work that is worthy of a Nobel Prize right now? Nomination, anyone?

Annie Proulx and Elmore Leonard

[swvaughn]

Meh. It's just an award. And like all other awards that have ever existed - from the Nobels right down to those certificates they give elementary kids for showing up at school - its recipients are determined by other human beings, with opinions (and possibly grudges, prejudices or favoritisms) of their own.

No matter how prestigious, awards are not the only indicator of good. There are plenty of talented writers in the U.S., just as there are all around the world. Not winning a Nobel doesn't make this fact any less so.

Lofty and honoring as it might be, sometimes I can't help comparing every award to high school student council elections. The results may or may not reflect quality, and certainly do not reflect the tastes of every person in the world.

(Take the opinion of someone who has no Nobel aspirations whatsoever, and just wants to write great genre fiction for the rest of her life, as you like.)

[scarletpeaches]

The world's a big place. America has no 'right' to win the Nobel any more than any other country. Writers come from all over, you know.

[mscelina]

I don't think anyone here has claimed that America has a 'right' to win the Nobel or anything else, scarlet. I think this was more of a commentary on the literary landscape of America in comparison to the rest of the world.

Well, that and American writers are 'insular.' Let's not forget that.

[ChaosTitan]

I mean, are you seriously saying that Toni Morrison wasn't a great writer just because you didn't enjoy her books as much as, say, the Da Vinci Code?

Well, I haven't read the Da Vinci Code (nor do I care to), but I've read two books by Toni Morrison. Hated both of them. And quite frankly, since I didn't enjoy her books, I don't think I'm qualified to say whether or not she's a great writer. Just like I don't think people who love and adore her books are qualified, either. We're both coming at the decision from a position of opinion, so what we think of her writing will be biased.

Then again, everything about writing and the quality thereof is biased, because it's all a matter of opinion. Is TM a good writer? I don't know. A lot of people obviously think so (including the Nobel prize committee), but a lot of people don't. I don't like her writing style and I didn't like the stories I read.

The authors I consider great writers would be sneered at from here to Doomsday by a literary prize committee, but oh well. I read and write what I love, which is genre.

And if I happen to enjoy reading a book about vampires more than something with a "Nobel Prize Winner" sticker on it, oh well. Maybe I have no taste in literature. But life's too damned short to bore myself reading what other people deem worthy--I probably wouldn't agree with them anyway. ;)

[Priene]

The results may or may not reflect quality

I disagree. The standard of Nobel prize winners over the years is amazing. Like these three



1950 - Bertrand Russell (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1950/index.html)
1949 - William Faulkner (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1949/index.html)
1948 - T.S. Eliot (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1948/index.html)


or these



1971 - Pablo Neruda (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1971/index.html)
1970 - Alexandr Solzhenitsyn (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1970/index.html)
1969 - Samuel Beckett (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1969/index.html)

or even these



2007 - Doris Lessing (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2007/index.html)
2006 - Orhan Pamuk (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2006/index.html)
2005 - Harold Pinter (http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005/index.html)

I haven't read anywhere all of the winners but the ones that I have were extremely good authors. The only odd really one was Winston Churchill

The fact that an author hasn't won it (James Joyce, Aleksandr Blok, WH Auden, John Updike) doesn't make them inferior to the winners, but that doesn't detract from these awards being given only to the very best in the profession.

[maestrowork]

Then again, everything about writing and the quality thereof is biased, because it's all a matter of opinion.

Of course it's a matter of opinion and taste, and the Nobel skews toward literary, not genre.

Still, there's a difference between saying "I don't like Toni Morrison or the kind of writing of these Nobel Prize winners, but I'm sure they're great writers regardless of my own taste" and "I think the Nobel Prize is overrated and irrelevant anyway because I don't like those books, so who cares?"

The former simply is a matter of taste and personal preferences, but the second sounds like disrespect to me.

[mscelina]

Winston Churchill as a Nobel laureate author is not odd at all. He was a prolific writer, including some really amazing fiction. I actually have a collection of Churchill's first editions.

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1953/churchill-bio.html

Churchill's literary career began with campaign reports: The Story of the Malakand Field Force (1898) and The River War (1899), an account of the campaign in the Sudan and the Battle of Omdurman. In 1900, he published his only novel, Savrola, and, six years later, his first major work, the biography of his father, Lord Randolph Churchill. His other famous biography, the life of his great ancestor, the Duke of Marlborough, was published in four volumes between 1933 and 1938. Churchill's history of the First World War appeared in four volumes under the title of The World Crisis (1923-29); his memoirs of the Second World War ran to six volumes (1948-1953/54). After his retirement from office, Churchill wrote a History of the English-speaking Peoples (4 vols., 1956-58). His magnificent oratory survives in a dozen volumes of speeches, among them The Unrelenting Struggle (1942), The Dawn of Liberation (1945), and Victory (1946).


He received the Nobel for "for his mastery of historical and biographical description as well as for brilliant oratory in defending exalted human values"

[Priene]

I wonder if he would have been awarded it if he hadn't been Prime Minister of the United Kingdom during the Second World War. He was primarily a historian and a journalist, and I don't see Eric Hobsbawm or AJP Taylor on that list.

[mscelina]

Did you manage--just by the merest chance--to look at the works I posted above? Churchill was a voluminous writer, with an absolutely brilliant grasp of the English language and incredible rhetorical significance. Unless you have read Churchill's works, you cannot possibly understand what a brilliant man of letters he really was.

in point of fact, it would probably be more accurate to wonder if he could have been elected as PM of the UK if he hadn't been as technically and rhetorically exceptional.

[Priene]

Did you manage--just by the merest chance--to look at the works I posted above?

I don't think comments like that are necessary at all.

My Dad had a Winston Churchill thing, so I've looked at some of his stuff. His most famous work, I think, was the History of the English-speaking Peoples, which was published after he won the Nobel Prize.

[ChaosTitan]

Still, there's a difference between saying "I don't like Toni Morrison or the kind of writing of these Nobel Prize winners, but I'm sure they're great writers regardless of my own taste"

Well, I'm not saying "I'm sure they're great writers regardless of my own taste," I'm saying I don't know if they're great writers. I'm not sure. But I do understand the point you're making. :)

and "I think the Nobel Prize is overrated and irrelevant anyway because I don't like those books, so who cares?"

The former simply is a matter of taste and personal preferences, but the second sounds like disrespect to me.

I don't know. If I said "I think American Idol is overrated and irrelevant anyway because I don't like pop music, so who cares?" is that disrespectful? Or just matter of taste?

[mscelina]

I don't think comments like that are necessary at all.

My Dad had a Winston Churchill thing, so I've looked at some of his stuff. His most famous work, I think, was the History of the English-speaking Peoples, which was published after he won the Nobel Prize.


I don't think you needed to take that comment as you obviously did.

I have Churchill's My Early Life which was published in 1930 and it's really fabulous. He has an engaging and quirky voice, which I like in biographies or memoirs. I have three copies of his novel Savrola published in 1900 that is a detailed and insightful political treatise wrapped inside a war/revolution novel. Interestingly enough (and not well-known by most) Churchill's American mother, Jennie Jerome (Lady Randolph) Churchill, was an accomplished playwright and publisher in her day so literary prowess wasn't a new thing for the family.

[Phaeal]

Not a Sinclair Lewis fan? He's one of my personal literary heroes...what about Steinbeck, you think he was rubbish? Doris Lessing? Toni Morrison?

Sinclair Lewis for the win!

I think the Nobel Committee has gotten wind of my novel on sub and is saving the next American win for me. I've already picked out my shoes for the award ceremony.

[scarletpeaches]

Nobel? Feh.

I aim to be the first Scot in eleventy billion years (okay, about 15) to win the Booker. That's where it's at. Award-winning erotica FTW!

[BenPanced]

I seem to remember a similar thread dissolving into a screaming match of anti-American/anti-genre bias, elitism, favoritism, and remarks about one's female parental unit's choice of military footwear.

[Phaeal]

The authors I consider great writers would be sneered at from here to Doomsday by a literary prize committee, but oh well. I read and write what I love, which is genre.


And, alas, what the AW most nominated candidate Ray Bradbury has against him is that he is in the genre ghetto.

[Lady Ice]

I wouldn't call American Literature insular but the good stuff is very American; American values and concepts. This isn't a bad thing at all- I love American Literature.

I don't really read the Pulitzer novels but I read the Pulitzer winning plays and all the ones I've read so far have been good.

[mscelina]

I seem to remember a similar thread dissolving into a screaming match of anti-American/anti-genre bias, elitism, favoritism, and remarks about one's female parental unit's choice of military footwear.

Yeah I do too. 'Twas rather nasty indeed.

[Phaeal]

Of course it's a matter of opinion and taste, and the Nobel skews toward literary, not genre.

Still, there's a difference between saying "I don't like Toni Morrison or the kind of writing of these Nobel Prize winners, but I'm sure they're great writers regardless of my own taste" and "I think the Nobel Prize is overrated and irrelevant anyway because I don't like those books, so who cares?"

The former simply is a matter of taste and personal preferences, but the second sounds like disrespect to me.

Red emphasis above added.

The great thing about reading is this: You get to vote with your wallet, or your library card, or your clever book-pinching-on-the-subway fingers. I'm not sure a writer is great because a committee, ANY committee, voted on it. I'm sure he or she is great when I love the books and bring them home.

[mscelina]

Here again--we need to keep in mind that prizes such as this are arbitrary and subjective and dependent upon the tastes and preferences of the people who serve as the adjudicators of the award.

[Roger J Carlson]

Here again--we need to keep in mind that prizes such as this are arbitrary and subjective and dependent upon the tastes and preferences of the people who serve as the adjudicators of the award.and about as apolitical as the Olympics.

[mscelina]

and about as apolitical as the Olympics.

Exactly. Anytime an agenda interferes with the arts, there's bound to be trouble.

[Jennasis]

Meh...I didn't enjoy Toni Morrison either. Just sayin'...

[blacbird]

I don't even remember any novels by Nobel winners, so I can't say I find it an important benchmark either.

Lord of the Flies
For Whom the Bell Tolls
The Old Man and the Sea
The Sun Also Rises
The Sound and the Fury
Light in August
Sanctuary
Babbitt
Arrowsmith
Main Street
One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
One Hundred Years of Solitude
The Good Earth
The Adventures of Augie March
The Tin Drum
Billiards at Half-Past Nine
Doctor Zhivago
Siddhartha
Steppenwolf
The Magic Mountain
The Plague
The Stranger
Penguin Island
The Jungle Books
Kim
The Light that Failed
A Bend in the River

. . . to jog your memory.

caw

[seun]

Am I missing something? Why American? Why not Icelandic? Or French? Or Swedish? Or Welsh? Or any country in the world?

Country should have sod all to do with it. If a book is considered good enough to win the Nobel Prize, what should the country matter?

[Krintar]

Americans have received 15 Nobel prizes in Physics, 15 in Chemistry and 12 in Medicine in the last ten years. Don't be greedy, now :tongue

[BenPanced]

Americans have received 15 Nobel prizes in Physics, 15 in Chemistry and 12 in Medicine in the last ten years. Don't be greedy, now :tongue
http://pics.livejournal.com/benpanced/pic/000df3rz

[Willowmound]

Can we think of a US person's body of work that is worthy of a Nobel Prize right now? Nomination, anyone?

William Gibson. He's my literary god.

[TwentyD]

William Gibson. He's my literary god.

well, neuromancer was good... but what the heck was virtual light?!?

i still have a hardback of spook country just waiting to be read.

[blacbird]

If a book is considered good enough to win the Nobel Prize, what should the country matter?

A book doesn't win a Nobel. The Nobel Prize in Lit is awarded for career achievement, not for an individual work, the way the Pulitzer or Booker Prizes are.

The Americans probably highest on the consideration list are Philip Roth and Cormac McCarthy. There isn't a chance in the Milky Way Galaxy that a writer of genre SF/Fantasy or mysteries or thrillers or horror or romance is going to be considered. Remember also that Nobels are not awarded posthumously.

caw

[Roger J Carlson]

A book doesn't win a Nobel. The Nobel Prize in Lit is awarded for career achievement, not for an individual work, the way the Pulitzer or Booker Prizes are.

The Americans probably highest on the consideration list are Philip Roth and Cormac McCarthy. There isn't a chance in the Milky Way Galaxy that a writer of genre SF/Fantasy or mysteries or thrillers or horror or romance is going to be considered. Remember also that Nobels are not awarded posthumously.

cawSeun's point, though, is that countries don't win the Nobel Prize, individuals do. "America" has never won the prize. What's more, many of the Prize winners were not born in the country they were awarded in. Doris Lessing was born in Iran, but won the Prize in the UK. Gao Xingjian was born in China, but won the Prize in France. Which country gets credit?

[blacbird]

Seun's point, though, is that countries don't win the Nobel Prize, individuals do.

Well . . . he did say, "If a book is considered good enough to win the Nobel Prize . . ."

caw

[willietheshakes]

William Gibson. He's my literary god.

Gibson hasn't been an American in, what, three decades?

[maestrowork]

Red emphasis above added.

The great thing about reading is this: You get to vote with your wallet, or your library card, or your clever book-pinching-on-the-subway fingers. I'm not sure a writer is great because a committee, ANY committee, voted on it. I'm sure he or she is great when I love the books and bring them home.

But at the same time, we all know that popularity and best-seller don't always mean "quality" literature. So wallet, IMO, is not the way to judge literary merits -- at least not adequately and not solely. I love my Sunday paper comics, but I'd be damned if Jim Davis won the Nobel for Garfield.

It's not to diss genre or any commercial writers. They must be doing something great that millions of people want to read them. A great storyteller? A rollicking good plot? Entertainer? Many write great prose in addition to telling great stories. I for one wouldn't say, "I don't read fantasy, so who cares if people think Tokien was god?"

The point is something like Nobel or Oscars set up their own criteria or excellence. Whether you like Al Pacino or Martin Scorsese or Hemingway or Morrison is irrelevant to whether they're considered by their peers to be great. Nobels, or the Oscars, are not People's Choice awards -- they're voted by supposedly "professionals" and their peers. I guess they figure if fellow writers say a certain writer is great, there must be some weight to it. It's not elitism, just a criteria to judge something as subjective as "greatness." And the point is, there's no reason to say, "I don't like Nobel winners so who cares?" Well, some people do. Many people do.

And I hope that one of these days, some of us/you may win an award and nobody is going to say, "I don't like you, so who cares?"

[lkp]

William Gibson. He's my literary god.

That would be cool, but I wouldn't call that US win. He may have been born in the States, but he has done all his writing in Canada.

Just one more good argument against the Draft.

[blacbird]

It might be worth noting writers who didn't win a Nobel. Top of my list would be Graham Greene, from Britain; there have been allegations that the Nobel committee is prejudiced against British Catholics, but I don't know how true this is. I do know that few more deserving writers have been around during my lifetime.

Some others, Americans and elsewhere (as noted):

Kurt Vonnegut
Anthony Burgess (Britain)
John Updike
Joseph Heller
Kobo Abe (Japan; died rather young, at 58)
Yukio Mishima (Japan; ditto the die young part, though he chose to do it himself)
Georges Simenon (France; perhaps considered a little too close to "genre" for Nobel comfort)
Joseph Conrad (Britain, by way of Polish birth)
H.G. Wells (Britain)
Virginia Woolf (Britain)
Willa Cather
Edith Wharton
Theodore Dreiser
Paul Laurence Dunbar
Zora Neale Hurston
Chinua Achebe (Nigeria, still around, hope he gets one)

Undoubtedly there are more, but I'd put every one of these ahead of a couple dozen or so Nobel laureates I see on the historical list.

caw

[Raphee]

Maybe the judges all hate Russia as well as America?

I thought the cold war was over.

[eyeblink]

Joyce Carol Oates is a US writer who is alive and productive and frequently put forward for Nobel consideration. As she's one of my favourite writers - I've read over 35 of her novels/novellas - I would be ecstatic if she won.

[Priene]

I thought the cold war was over.

Just a joke.

[Phaeal]

But at the same time, we all know that popularity and best-seller don't always mean "quality" literature. So wallet, IMO, is not the way to judge literary merits -- at least not adequately and not solely. I love my Sunday paper comics, but I'd be damned if Jim Davis won the Nobel for Garfield.

It's not to diss genre or any commercial writers. They must be doing something great that millions of people want to read them. A great storyteller? A rollicking good plot? Entertainer? Many write great prose in addition to telling great stories. I for one wouldn't say, "I don't read fantasy, so who cares if people think Tokien was god?"

The point is something like Nobel or Oscars set up their own criteria or excellence. Whether you like Al Pacino or Martin Scorsese or Hemingway or Morrison is irrelevant to whether they're considered by their peers to be great. Nobels, or the Oscars, are not People's Choice awards -- they're voted by supposedly "professionals" and their peers. I guess they figure if fellow writers say a certain writer is great, there must be some weight to it. It's not elitism, just a criteria to judge something as subjective as "greatness." And the point is, there's no reason to say, "I don't like Nobel winners so who cares?" Well, some people do. Many people do.

And I hope that one of these days, some of us/you may win an award and nobody is going to say, "I don't like you, so who cares?"

The people who don't like my books probably still won't like them when they win the Nobel Prize. Unless, of course, they're the sort of people who like what they're told to like.

As for the bestseller criterion, I don't buy into that as a determinant of book quality, either. Again, the great thing about reading is I choose. Neither awards won nor bestseller status influence me. I choose on the merits alone, as I determine them. I'm the one doing the reading, not the awards committee or the others who've bought the book.

I don't denigrate award winners or bestsellers, though. I'm glad for the industry's sake that they exist. I'm glad the authors reap some hard-earned rewards. I'm glad readers who may enjoy the books are led to them through the publicity. I just won't automatically accord award winners the highest form of respect, by spending my book money on them.

A book impresses me when it impresses me. Ditto a writer. Awards, etc., are irrelevant to my own reaction to the book. That's all I'm saying. Not that awards should be scuttled or mocked. Or bestseller lists, either.

[Willowmound]

Gibson hasn't been an American in, what, three decades?

I'm sure I read somewhere that he's moved back. Could be wrong.

[Birol]

Just poppin' in to say don't let this thread devolve. Keep it an interesting, civil discussion. Poppin' back out now.

[mscelina]

It might be worth noting writers who didn't win a Nobel. Top of my list would be Graham Greene, from Britain; there have been allegations that the Nobel committee is prejudiced against British Catholics, but I don't know how true this is. I do know that few more deserving writers have been around during my lifetime.

Some others, Americans and elsewhere (as noted):

Kurt Vonnegut
Anthony Burgess (Britain)
John Updike
Joseph Heller
Kobo Abe (Japan; died rather young, at 58)
Yukio Mishima (Japan; ditto the die young part, though he chose to do it himself)
Georges Simenon (France; perhaps considered a little too close to "genre" for Nobel comfort)
Joseph Conrad (Britain, by way of Polish birth)
H.G. Wells (Britain)
Virginia Woolf (Britain)
Willa Cather
Edith Wharton
Theodore Dreiser
Paul Laurence Dunbar
Zora Neale Hurston
Chinua Achebe (Nigeria, still around, hope he gets one)

Undoubtedly there are more, but I'd put every one of these ahead of a couple dozen or so Nobel laureates I see on the historical list.

caw

I'm so glad to see you have Paul Laurence Dunbar on this list--one of the greatest and most overlooked writers in American literature.

[Priene]

Ten brilliant writers robbed of a Nobel Prize (http://listverse.com/2009/09/16/10-brilliant-writers-robbed-of-a-nobel-prize/).

(Mark Twain, Leo Tolstoy, James Joyce, Marcel Proust, Henrik Ibsen, Emile Zola, Robert Frost, WH Auden, Vladimir Nabokov, Jorge Luis Borges)

Looking at the list of winners before WW2, there was either a serious quality control problem or tastes have changed drastically. Leo Tolstoy (died 1910) goes to the top of the list. The only Russian to win it before Pasternak (1960) was Bunin, which is eccentric, to say the least.

It seems strange that William Golding won one, but not Graham Greene or Evelyn Waugh. One explanation I've read for Updike not winning was because his work was so similar to Saul Bellow, only one was going to win. Once Bellow won it in 1976, that ruled out Updike and Philip Roth, apparently.

Edit: I'd also add Antal Szerb to the list of should-have-wons.

[seun]

Well . . . he did say, "If a book is considered good enough to win the Nobel Prize . . ."


Yep, which was me not being very clear. My point is the recognition that a book/writer gets from winning should be more important than the country involved. Focusing on the country just seems to me to ignore the point: that a book or writer has achieved something. I couldn't care less about the country.

[MumblingSage]

Not a Sinclair Lewis fan? He's one of my personal literary heroes...what about Steinbeck, you think he was rubbish? Doris Lessing? Toni Morrison?

Love Sinclair Lewis, but I seem to recall hearing that he campaigned very vigorously for that Nobel Prize, and pouting over a previous novel (I think it was Main Street) that hadn't won one. Doesn't decrease my love for Lewis, nor my respect for the idea of a Nobel Prize, but I'm not going to hold it as the be-all to end-all of all literature.

[blacbird]

Love Sinclair Lewis, but I seem to recall hearing that he campaigned very vigorously for that Nobel Prize, and pouting over a previous novel (I think it was Main Street) that hadn't won one. Doesn't decrease my love for Lewis, nor my respect for the idea of a Nobel Prize, but I'm not going to hold it as the be-all to end-all of all literature.

To reiterate, as it seems still not to be clear, the Nobel Prize in Literature isn't awarded for a particular BOOK. It's awarded for career achievement.

caw