Is a Deus Ex Machina such even if its known beforehand?

[Trauntj]

for one of my WIP novels, the MC is injected with an eidolon (actually word kiddies, look up in the dicitonary! :]) into his body to use a vessel for growth. sometime later, the thing is released to stop some of sort of conflict. Now, if all the characters know hes carrying it and that it will be released sometime later, would it still be considered a DEM? Of course I would add other things to make it not so painful to read like DEMs usually are, but I was just curious.

[alleycat]

Probably not. DEM usually comes out of left field to solve the problem just when it looks like there's no way for the hero to escape or win.

[mscelina]

If the MC does not actively work to solve the conflict and it is resolved instead by an outside, alien, unexpected source, it is deus ex machina. Looking at it that way, you don't really have so much of a deus ex machina as you do a conflict that doesn't increase the tension. If everyone knows Johnny has Bahamut as an eidelon, then why will they be scared when they're attacked by chocobos? They get attacked, he released eidelon, and no one even bothers to get scared.

[ChaosTitan]

I think it would depend on how it was written.

If this eidolon had to be grown to a certain age/size before it could be used, and if the MC is constantly challenged/fighting to stay alive long enough to use this eidolon, then I wouldn't see it as a DexM. It's kind of the opposite of hunting for the secret weapon that will destroy the baddy--he's got it, he just can't use it yet.

[maestrowork]

It's no different than Luke Skywalker knowing he has the Force, but he doesn't know how to use it. Obi-Wan keeps telling him he needs to use it, that he's special. But at the end, during the pivotal moment, he hears Obi-Wan's voice again to tell him to trust the Force. He uses it to destroy the Death Star.

Is it a DeM? No.

However, it depends on how it's done. In Star Wars, Luke actively decides to trust the Force and use it. So there's an active action and decision on the MC's part to make this not a DeM. However, if you write it in a way that the Mc doesn't do anything, and the eidolon just happens to work at the most opportune time, then I would consider it coincidence/convenience and marginally a DeM even though you've alluded to it. If nothing else, it's unsatisfactory and disappointing because your MC doesn't have to do anything.

[willietheshakes]

It's no different than Luke Skywalker knowing he has the Force, but he doesn't know how to use it. Obi-Wan keeps telling him he needs to use it, that he's special. But at the end, during the pivotal moment, he hears Obi-Wan's voice again to tell him to trust the Force. He uses it to destroy the Death Star.

Is it a DeM? No.

However, it depends on how it's done. In Star Wars, Luke actively decides to trust the Force and use it. So there's an active action and decision on the MC's part to make this not a DeM. However, if you write it in a way that the Mc doesn't do anything, and the eidolon just happens to work at the most opportune time, then I would consider it coincidence/convenience and marginally a DeM even though you've alluded to it. If nothing else, it's unsatisfactory and disappointing because your MC doesn't have to do anything.

It could be argued, however -- COULD -- that Obi-Wan's voice borders on a DEM.

[Delhomeboy]

It could be argued, however -- COULD -- that Obi-Wan's voice borders on a DEM.

It's my opinion that EVERYTHING is DEM when it comes to plot changes...I think the job of the writer is to just make sure that it doesn't LOOK like DEM. So in Star Wars, you're right, hearing Obi-Wan's voice probably is a DEM, but since earlier in the film it was established that Obi-Wan can communicate with Luke beyond death, it doesn't come out of left field and the viewer can go "Well, Obi-Wan talked to Luke before so it makes sense that he can do it now."

[Cyia]

DeM = the MC at the end of the story, facing the villain, about ready to die or have to make a choice that will cost them something and *ding* a supernatural being steps into frame and fixes everything, thus robbing the MC of the chance to grow, learn, or lose.

There's no set up for it and no reason for it to happen in the logical progression of the story. If the "thing" is established as present, active, and waiting to act, then it's not DeM. It's a story element.

[maestrowork]

It could be argued, however -- COULD -- that Obi-Wan's voice borders on a DEM.

Didn't Obi-Wan talk to Luke (after his "death") before the climax, too? So, that has been established. It's part of the Force's power -- that you exist after death and you can communicate. So I don't think it's an DeM.

[katiemac]

It could be argued, however -- COULD -- that Obi-Wan's voice borders on a DEM.

But Obi-Wan's voice doesn't magically fix anything. Luke still beats Vader.

[Cyia]

But Obi-Wan's voice doesn't magically fix anything. Luke still beats Vader.


Nah. Han Solo rides in at the last second and saves his butt ;)

[katiemac]

Nah. Han Solo rides in at the last second and saves his butt ;)

<---*has never actually seen Star Wars*

[Trauntj]

thanks for the help guys. love this forum. :)

[maestrowork]

Nah. Han Solo rides in at the last second and saves his butt ;)

No he doesn't. Stop spreading rumors!!! He didn't shoot first either.

[Delhomeboy]

No he doesn't. Stop spreading rumors!!! He didn't shoot first either.

Stop trying to deny that Luke's a pansy until Return of the Jedi.

<---*has never actually seen Star Wars*

This must be rectified.

[Cliff Face]

Until now I didn't even know there was a phrase like DeM - fixing the story in an arbitrary unexpected non-MC way... I just thought it was common sense that you wouldn't do it that way. ?

[blacbird]

Until now I didn't even know there was a phrase like DeM - fixing the story in an arbitrary unexpected non-MC way... I just thought it was common sense that you wouldn't do it that way. ?

It is. Which is exactly why no sensible writer would commit such a sin. By definition, DeM is a story resolution entirely unexpectable from what has been related before, like the big asteroid strike destroying the dinosaurs.

caw

[Trauntj]

It is. Which is exactly why no sensible writer would commit such a sin. By definition, DeM is a story resolution entirely unexpectable from what has been related before, like the big asteroid strike destroying the dinosaurs.

caw

which is why I didn't want something awful like that in a novel I've worked so hard on, hence this topic. oh and nice derailing to star wars guys. any other input is greatly appreciated.

[Delhomeboy]

It is. Which is exactly why no sensible writer would commit such a sin. By definition, DeM is a story resolution entirely unexpectable from what has been related before, like the big asteroid strike destroying the dinosaurs.

caw

Didn't Dickens have the tendency to do this?

[Trauntj]

Didn't Dickens have the tendency to do this?

it may have been used in a lighter tone, which would have been okay because she knew that it was not to be taken serious. the only thing I can think of is "A Christmas Carol" but there might have been more; or none at all.

[blacbird]

Didn't Dickens have the tendency to do this?

Maybe. But I also think that Charles Dickens is horrendously overrated in the pantheon of Victorian-era novelists, and that Victorian-era readers were far more forgiving, enthusiastic even, about DeM resolutions.

caw

[Stunted]

I haven't read your book, but I would imagine that the best way for it to work would be, "At some point, the thing's going to hatch, but it might kill you, and it'll suck for xyz character, and maybe it'll be evil, but it might also do xzy mysterious good thing for us" rather than "On xyz date, it's going to come out and save everyone." And the first one would work better if hints are dropped throughout the novel about what it might be, and the reader expectations change.

[blacbird]

It's my opinion that EVERYTHING is DEM when it comes to plot changes

You have never read anything by James M. Cain, have you? Nothing, absolutely nothing, in any of his fiction comes close to DeM. His work is the antithesis of DeM, the plot inexorable, just plain deadly in its predestination from a single, often minor or nearly innocent event at the outset. Much the same can be said for the fiction of Georges Simenon. And a fair number of other fine writers of fiction (Dumas, Conrad, Hugo, Steinbeck all come to mind; and certainly your literary hero, Hemingway, in For Whom the Bell Tolls).

caw

[Trauntj]

I haven't read your book, but I would imagine that the best way for it to work would be, "At some point, the thing's going to hatch, but it might kill you, and it'll suck for xyz character, and maybe it'll be evil, but it might also do xzy mysterious good thing for us" rather than "On xyz date, it's going to come out and save everyone." And the first one would work better if hints are dropped throughout the novel about what it might be, and the reader expectations change.

this is what I was planning on doing. theres no way in hell I would let the thing be released without at least risk of uncertain consequences. ;)

[Lady Ice]

for one of my WIP novels, the MC is injected with an eidolon (actually word kiddies, look up in the dicitonary! :]) into his body to use a vessel for growth. sometime later, the thing is released to stop some of sort of conflict. Now, if all the characters know hes carrying it and that it will be released sometime later, would it still be considered a DEM? Of course I would add other things to make it not so painful to read like DEMs usually are, but I was just curious.

No, it isn't a DEM, as it's been forshadowed. You could set it up like Chekhov's Gun in order to gain more tension (the idea of Chekhov's gun is that if a gun is seen on the wall in Act 1, it will be shot by Act 4)

[maestrowork]

Didn't Dickens have the tendency to do this?

Does he? I know he had a soft spot for coincidences, which, when done right, could provide for some interesting plot development. But I'm not so sure about DeM.

[Raphee]

It is. Which is exactly why no sensible writer would commit such a sin. By definition, DeM is a story resolution entirely unexpectable from what has been related before, like the big asteroid strike destroying the dinosaurs.

caw

The whole history of mankind is a DEM...what does that say about the story writer.

[Stunted]

this is what I was planning on doing. theres no way in hell I would let the thing be released without at least risk of uncertain consequences. ;)

Good call, then!

(Sorry, I didn't know. This tends to happen on the forums a lot, I think. You ask a question out of context and people think you're less experienced than you are. I know how frustrating that can be. :))

[Lady Ice]

Deus Ex Machina is normally done when the writer has got themselves into an impossible situation and there is no longer any logical escape from the problem they're entangled in. The Historical Notes in 'The Handmaid's Tale' are basically a DEM.

[Phaeal]

No he doesn't. Stop spreading rumors!!! He didn't shoot first either.

Of course Han Solo arrives in the Falcon just as Vader has Luke in his sights. He damages Vader's tie-fighter enough so it spins off out of control, but, also of course, Vader lives to breath hard another day. (We could argue all day, if 'we' were true SW geeks, over whether Vader would really have pulled the trigger, since he was already sensing Luke's potential and perhaps even getting a tingle of paternal identification, but hey, this is an AW, not an SW, forum.) ;)

If Solo didn't appear at the last minute to save Luke, Lucas would have violated the pirate-turned-reluctant-hero trope, and the viewer would have felt robbed. All pulp tropes must be fulfilled! I guess you might say the deus ex machina was a pulp trope to the ancient Greek dramatist, and so had to be fulfilled.

[Mara]

I think it's "deus ex machina" if most of the audience thinks the writer screwed up and had to bail herself out. (Intentionally screwing up is still screwing up.) But it's fine if the audience doesn't get that impression. The best way to keep the audience in your corner is to foreshadow. Also, when foreshadowing a possible event, it's good to drop hints that say "Listen audience, the climax might be a little odd, but trust me, it'll be freakin' cool! Give it a chance."

(We could argue all day, if 'we' were true SW geeks, over whether Vader would really have pulled the trigger, since he was already sensing Luke's potential and perhaps even getting a tingle of paternal identification, but hey, this is an AW, not an SW, forum.) ;)


AW can still handle this! Quick, someone write a fanfic! :)

[Delhomeboy]

Of course Han Solo arrives in the Falcon just as Vader has Luke in his sights. He damages Vader's tie-fighter enough so it spins off out of control, but, also of course, Vader lives to breath hard another day. (We could argue all day, if 'we' were true SW geeks, over whether Vader would really have pulled the trigger, since he was already sensing Luke's potential and perhaps even getting a tingle of paternal identification, but hey, this is an AW, not an SW, forum.) ;)



Well ACTUALLY, *pushes up glasses, tells mommy for the thousandth time that I'll be there in a minute* Han only takes out the fighter on Vader's right. What happens is Vader is just stunned enough to distract him from finishing off Luke, when the TIE fighter on the other side of Vader, in a maneuver of utter stupidity, tries to protect the dark lord by throwing himself between Vader and The Falcon, but in the process, he hits Vader's Interceptor, causing his ultimate destruction and sending Vader out of the trench in a spiral.

[maestrowork]

* hangs head in shame for what I've started -- why did I have to cite Star Wars? Why? *

[gothicangel]

it may have been used in a lighter tone, which would have been okay because she knew that it was not to be taken serious. the only thing I can think of is "A Christmas Carol" but there might have been more; or none at all.

In Bleak House Krook dies from Human Combustion, but his social commentary is so razor sharp, I'm willing to forgive him.