What ANNOYS you most in...

[xcomplex]

Alright, so let's open a discussion about this. No pointing out specific works here. My question is what annoys you most in novels?
Mine would be:


A new language that we have to look at the back of the book for to understand.
A damsel in distress. Just because it's a girl doesn't mean she has to weep all the time to be rescued, I mean come on would that ever happen in real life?
Amazing characters which can never die or get never wounded.
When a child rescues the world... and yes I have read an adult book about that :O lol
When the novel is about someone struggling with their own stupidity.
When say 'Juliette' can't love her guy just because her folks don't let her. I mean really if you love someone you would tilt the world for them.
When the book is really shallow...
When the criminals and crimes are alays caught. I mean if I was setting up a heist or a murdur I don't want to be found out. It would be planned out like crazy!

That's what I've got right now. What about you?

[Matera the Mad]

All of the above and lazy writing habits on top of it all.

[Exir]

Actually, I'd argue that all of the above are not bad in themselves -- they can be done well.

Except the damsel in distress, of course. That IS inexcusable. :tongue

[Southpaw]

Fragments--they are all the rage.

[Brutal Mustang]

Oh, sometimes a good damsel in distress makes for good laughs ... if she is written well. Heck, I've known great real-life people who where total damsels in distress in certain situations.

[TrickyFiction]

Just to be contrary, I'm getting kind of tired of the hyper-strong female protagonist--I mean the sort where she's unreasonably strong-willed and "spunky" just because she's a girl, and no female is allowed to be weak in fiction anymore. Seriously. Sometimes we're weak.

[thethinker42]

I have many...filtering, crappy sex scenes, DEM, things like that...but one in particular that's been bugging me lately: The "arrogant alpha male" in romances. Does EVERY hero have to be a pompous jackass that eventually grovels on his knees for the heroine to forgive him? Is it so wrong to have a likable hero? There are plenty of other things that can drive a couple apart besides "I'm an arrogant twatbag who is entitled to whatever and whomever I want and you're TSTL for loving me".

Okay, so it's not in every romance novel, but it annoys me to the point that I've been known to stop reading a book when I realize the hero falls into that category.

Oh...and in M/M fiction...the over-feminized gay men. Not that gay men are never feminine (hell, straight men can be too), just that it seems like a disproportionately high number of gay characters are stereotypically feminine.

To summarize, my pet peeves are straight men who are dicks and gay men who are chicks with dicks.

[Libbie]

Orphaned farmboy goes on quest to save the world because he is the chosen one.

Seen it.

[thethinker42]

Orphaned farmboy goes on quest to save the world because he is the chosen one.

Seen it.

Dammit...

*trunks outlines for next three novels*

*moves on to screenplay about a giant corporation that develops a virus that gets loose and turns people into zombies*

[Exir]

Worse than overdone spunky females are females who are supposed to kick-ass -- except we never see them kicking anybody's butt.

[ishtar'sgate]

I The "arrogant alpha male" in romances. Does EVERY hero have to be a pompous jackass that eventually grovels on his knees for the heroine to forgive him? Is it so wrong to have a likable hero?
While we're on the subject of romance novels, I'm real tired of novels that begin with the heroine hating the hero. Sometimes she has a reason for thinking he's a jerk and sometimes she has no reason whatsoever. You KNOW she's going to end up with him. Every time I see that scenario I stop reading. I know I'm going to be bored out of my tree.

[thethinker42]

While we're on the subject of romance novels, I'm real tired of novels that begin with the heroine hating the hero. Sometimes she has a reason for thinking he's a jerk and sometimes she has no reason whatsoever. You KNOW she's going to end up with him. Every time I see that scenario I stop reading. I know I'm going to be bored out of my tree.

YES. THANK YOU.

It's one thing if they don't click right away, but absolutely hating each other? Yes, it happens, but it just happens so. Damned. Often in fiction.

My characters invariably click right away, but as the malevolent god of their universe, I find a way to tear them apart. I like it better that way...two people who want to be together, but can't...not two people who hate each other, then think, "hey, you're pretty hawt..."

Of course that CAN and does work sometimes...but it's so so SO overdone.

[EclipsesMuse]

How about a series of books that continue with no apparent end. I'm tired of hearing who's backstabbing what. Can we get a resolution please, or at least get to a possible climax?

[Matera the Mad]

Oh, I forgot -- first person present.

BARF!

[Cliff Face]

Oh, I forgot -- first person present.

BARF!

I second that barf.

And why is every guy either a brawny jock or a picked-on nerd? That's so 1997.

Another pet peeve of mine is a character in my own book who is completely different from me in how he goes after women. Now I don't want him to get the girl, even if it means a DEM the woman falling for someone else. Damn.

[Steam&Ink]

I get annoyed by middle-aged male protags who invariably end up boinking a much younger, much hotter girl. (I'm fighting the urge to give an example, but I know I'm not allowed...)

And synthetic dialogue. (Read your dialogue aloud, people! If it doesn't sound like something you'd say, ask yourself why your MC talks like that!!)

[Misa Buckley]

Novels that read like bad fanfiction...

On a more serious note: lack of characterisation annoys the hell out of me. Give me a reason to care, dammit! There are other things that bug me, but if the characters in a book aren't well drawn, then said book doesn't get read. End of.

[Albannach]

I don't mind a woman in distress needing rescuing. If it's a logical part of the plot and not just tie her up on the railroad tracks because otherwise there's no plot, then it's fine. Would it happen in real life that a woman needs rescuing? Sure it would.

I hate present tense novels. HATE them. They are SO pretentious and scream, "look at me being literary".

I LOATHE characters who can't get hurt. Or the author says they got hurt when they were beaten up for half an hour, but a minute later they're fine.

I don't mind the heroine hating the hero. I mean, we know they're going to get together in ANY romance. What I hate is when she has no reason to hate him and hates him anyway and that's the only reason they're not getting together. That's stupid.

[DannySherbet]

Alright, so let's open a discussion about this. No pointing out specific works here. My question is what annoys you most in novels?


I don't like it when authors try too hard to impress you with their intelligence and writing skill. The writing becomes all flowery, and, while impressive to an extent, it detracts from the story.

I won't name names ... oh, go on then, just the one - Martin Amis.

When I read a novel I like to enjoy the story. The writer should merely be lurking in the background.

[Freelancer]

- Every fantasy which is based on Lord of the Rings
- Cliches in general
- Overused cliches where the author tries to explain their "rightful" existence in the novel
- Completely useless actions, battle scenes which are not serving any purpose at all, but they're there, because without them the plot would be boring
- Shallow, unoriginal story lines, be it fantasy or sci-fi
- Shallow, unoriginal characters (Elves, dwarves, good knight)
- Evil whose major goal is to destroy the world to rule on a pile of ashes later (Geez. That's the plan...)
- Very last moment resolutions (BOOOOOOOOOOORING!!!)
- Huge explosions (Even if something doesn't contain any flammable, but it would look good in the storyline.).
- Predictable plot
- Speaking dragons
- Friendly speaking dragons

[DannySherbet]

What about when the author gives the bad guy one redeeming quality in an attempt to make him a sympathetic, rounded character?

"He mugs old ladies, steals from charity boxes, and spends his nights burning down orphanages ... but he always remembers his mum's birthday."

"She's a gold-digging, manipulative ball-buster who hates the male species because of what her father did to her ... but she never forgets to feed Cuddles, her three-year-old Ragdoll cat."

[Maxinquaye]

"It was a dark and stormy night"

[bearilou]

Being beaten over the head with an obviously important fact that will be featured later on in the novel.

"Little did he know that in 24 hours this tidbit of fact would save his life."

[Charlee]

I was given a book a couple of yeas ago for my birthday I'd never heard of the author but it looked interesting. Started it and really liked it for about 3/4 of the book it is about how a girl adapts to the world after a coma she has to struggle with her realtionships and doesn't really understand this new world.

Then suddenly it was af if the book had been taken over by someonelse. People started turning into zombies and the girl excaped becasuse she had slept through the disease that had caused it all. Very strange U-turn in teh book I wasn't impressed.

[Freelancer]

And what I forgot. Annoying and completely useless statements. i.e.

Two cops are watching a beheaded corpse. Dialogue: He is dead. (Oh, really? I never thought for this.).

Before the final climatic battle, good vs. evil. Evil's dialogue: One of us will die. (Oh, my. I also never thought for that.).

Starship battle. Dialogue: One more hit and we turn to dust, Captain! (Then another three or four shots, greater then the previous ones hit the ship without any problem.).

Useless dialogues (This one will be a movie reference): You're not in Kansas anymore, you're in Pandora (Well. You enlisted to the army and traveled light years to another planet to learn that planet is not Kansas and you're not there. What a useful information. Brilliant.).

Event dialogue: We've 2 minutes and 37 seconds before the reactor goes critical and blows! (The MC says this without even reading any terminal. And of course, no terminal ever mistakes in this sort of calculation.).

Event dialogue #2: Hurry! The car is going to explode! (Yeah. Sure. I saw burning cars, but none of them ever exploded.)

Introduction dialogues (Good vs. Evil.): Who are you? (Yeah. The evil is surely going to ask the good guy's name, even address and phone number.).

[IdiotsRUs]

Characters with no emotional vulnerabilities - and included in that is characters where it is obvious that the writer decided that damsels in distress were sooo overdone and went to the other extreme, giving us instead a robot woman who could snap the neck of small children with nary a second thought, but is supposed to be sympathetic cos she's badass.

[bonitakale]

But anything can be done well. I am reading a book done from three viewpoints--in second person present! And somehow, it works.(Charles Stross, Halting State)

What really irritates me is usually the small things-- words used the wrong way.

Oh yes, and the character who is seen by everyone, including the author, as being exceptionally Good or Wise or even Tasteful, but when we get down to actual words and actions, turns out to be Bad or Stupid or Tacky.

Slightly apt quote from Jane Austen:

After a very short search, you will discover a division in the tapestry so artfully constructed as to defy the minutest inspection, and on opening it, a door will immediately appear—which door, being only secured by massy bars and a padlock, you will, after a few efforts, succeed in opening—and, with your lamp in your hand, will pass through it into a small vaulted room."

"No, indeed; I should be too much frightened to do any such thing."

"What! Not when Dorothy has given you to understand that there is a secret subterraneous communication between your apartment and the chapel of St. Anthony, scarcely two miles off? Could you shrink from so simple an adventure?

[Linda Adams]

Subplots inappropriate to the type of book (i.e. a marital angst subplot in the middle of an action adventure thriller about a lost treasure).
Subplots that take over the story or divert from the story for too long.
The competent, capable heroine who turns dumb for the end of the story.
Misspelled dialect, especially for a main character
Poking out people's eyeballs--seen a lot of this lately.
Cutting off fingers--seen a lot of this lately.
Kick ass heroines who spend the entire book insulting everyone
Characters who get new magic powers in each new book.
Characters who are invincible to make up for normal weaknesses.

[kaitie]

Poor writing is always a turnoff, though I'll put up with it if it's got interesting characters or stories. They just have to be good enough to make me forget how much it sucks.

Just about the only thing that really annoys me is having characters do something completely out of character. For example, I read a book once where the MC was this smart, independent, well-employed chick who was supposed to be super strong, etc. At the end, the bad guy ties her up and puts her in a plastic garbage bag so she'll suffocate to death when she runs out of air. Aside from being a ridiculously stupid way to kill someone, I was most annoyed because she was all the sudden stricken with damsel in distress syndrome and had to wait on the love interest to come and save her. All I could think was you're supposed to be this smart, tough chick and that's the best you can do? Lay there whining? Why not try to claw a whole in the stupid bag so you can get some air?

So yeah, just things like that, or points where characters do things completely outrageous because it fits the plot. I'll usually still finish the book, but I will be incredibly, incredibly annoyed and complain about it afterward.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Just to be contrary, I'm getting kind of tired of the hyper-strong female protagonist--I mean the sort where she's unreasonably strong-willed and "spunky" just because she's a girl, and no female is allowed to be weak in fiction anymore. Seriously. Sometimes we're weak.Especially if her name is Kate, Katie, Cat, Kat, Cait or Caitlyn. Make it stop!

Also on my list of dont's:


Repetition. Unless you're writing for small children, tell us something once.
Overuse of stock gestures such as eye rolling, sighing, nodding, head shaking, grinning and smiling, scowling and frowning.
Taking show-don't-tell so far that it seems like the characters are playing a boring game of charades. If it's slowing the story because it takes half a page for the character to act out a simple emotion, it's probably overdone.
Words and phrases no one ever uses except in novels. Arms akimbo, a shock of (usually red) hair, etc.
Quirkiness for quirkiness's sake.

[kaitie]

Especially if her name is Kate, Katie, Cat, Kat, Cait or Caitlyn. Make it stop!



Hey, it was original back when I thought of it. ;)

[IdiotsRUs]

Words and phrases no one ever uses except in novels. Arms akimbo, a shock of (usually red) hair, etc




Er, those are used quite a lot round here...

Taking show-don't-tell so far that it seems like the characters are playing a boring game of charades. If it's slowing the story because it takes half a page for the character to act out a simple emotion, it's probably overdone. Gods yes, that is highly irritating

[ChaosTitan]

Bad writing. Boring story.

[Cyia]

Especially if her name is Kate, Katie, Cat, Kat, Cait or Caitlyn. Make it stop!


But... that's the whole premise of one of my WIP. :D

Katie, Kitty, Katharine, and Kate. (And Katya, but she's dead)

[Elaine Margarett]

Plot holes! For example, when the characters resolve whatever it is they're attempting to resolve by a complex method, ignoring another easier, more logical solution. Come on, if I can think of it, why can't your characters?

Books that start out in first person and midway through (or later) alternate with third person. ??? If something's in first, how can it go to third? It makes no sense to me and totally takes me out of the story.

Violence substituting for substance. I don't care about the mechanisms of how someone dies. I don't find it interesting. More on to the story...

[xcomplex]

I was given a book a couple of yeas ago for my birthday I'd never heard of the author but it looked interesting. Started it and really liked it for about 3/4 of the book it is about how a girl adapts to the world after a coma she has to struggle with her realtionships and doesn't really understand this new world.

Then suddenly it was af if the book had been taken over by someonelse. People started turning into zombies and the girl excaped becasuse she had slept through the disease that had caused it all. Very strange U-turn in teh book I wasn't impressed.

Yes I hate when great novels take a useless twist, I read one like that until I got to this part when I was like.. OMG this sucks... I also hate horrible criminals if I didn't mention that, I mean the majority of killers get away with their stuff.

[The Lonely One]

Sometimes the oldest stories, the ones told over and over, are the best. I don't care what's been "done before." Fucking everything has. There're something like eight possible plot lines for all of us to choose from, and buying into what has been 'overdone' just means you aren't good enough to tell it better, and you're buying into this market bullshit rather than telling your story.

If an author can tell me his or her story with the love and authority they have for it, I'll listen. Period. Period.

The greatest crime in storytelling is not telling them with your heart.

[Carlene]

How about bad or totally unreal law enforcement procedures? I read mysteries and write them. I do research to make sure what I write is correct. I volunteerd at the Sheriff's Department for two years to make contacts and understand procedures - okay it was fun too.

I read a book by a NYT Bestseller where she had her protagonist putting bullets into the BARREL of a .38! I wrote a very nice, poliete letter to her publisher pointing out that boo-boo. I was astounded when she wrote me a thank you letter. She said neither she nor her editor had ever so much as held a gun, let alone loaded one! Oy - if you're going to write mysteries you darn well better learn to shoot a gun!

Carlene

Call Sign: Love
The Colors of Death
An Extra Pair of Eyes
Stormy Love
The Worst Evil
Mind Echoes
FINDER!

[motormind]

What annoys me? A novel that has clearly been edited to death, leaving a lifeless shell of words.

[cwfgal]

Bad writing. Boring story.

You took the words right out of my mouth, er...off my keyboard...from my fingers??

I'm shocked (and dismayed) by the people who say they loathe stories told in first person present tense. Why? It seems such an arbitrary reason to dismiss a work without regard for the quality of the writing, the story, or the characters.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

[Brindle MacWuff]

What normally makes my blood boil is picking up a bestseller in a bookshop, realising it is utter crap, the wondering how this dullard ever got into print in the first place.

Jealousy. Pure and undiluted.

[ishtar'sgate]

YES. THANK YOU.

It's one thing if they don't click right away, but absolutely hating each other? Yes, it happens, but it just happens so. Damned. Often in fiction.

Of course that CAN and does work sometimes...but it's so so SO overdone.
And that's the problem. I like a good romance and I know there needs to be conflict or you don't have much of a story. Just wish writers would leave that old chestnut alone for awhile.

[DWSTXS]

Just to be contrary, I'm getting kind of tired of the hyper-strong female protagonist--I mean the sort where she's unreasonably strong-willed and "spunky" just because she's a girl, and no female is allowed to be weak in fiction anymore. Seriously. Sometimes we're weak.

This.
Plus, all these 'strong women' have tricked up names. Like Mace. or Steele. If their names aren't tricked up, it's because the author has named his heroine, 'Cat'
gimme a break!

[kuwisdelu]

But anything can be done well. I am reading a book done from three viewpoints--in second person present! And somehow, it works.

Wait, wait.

Three different viewpoints. In second person present?

Doesn't that imply the reader has multiple personalities, or am I missing something?

...or maybe that's the idea.

(If that isn't the idea, I think I have a new idea for a story...)

Crap.

[IdiotsRUs]

Wait, wait.

Three different viewpoints. In second person present?

Doesn't that imply the reader has multiple personalities, or am I missing something?

...or maybe that's the idea.

(If that isn't the idea, I think I have a new idea for a story...)

Crap.

That's how it felt when I read it, It made my brain hurt so I put it down and didn't pick it up again.

[S.J.]

Orphaned farmboy goes on quest to save the world because he is the chosen one.

Seen it.

Oops.

Boring story.

Definitely! I don't mind how many cliches there are, as long as it's not boring.

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

Oh so many. Most of these are specific jabs at one of my least favorite authors, but I haven't named anyone, and I imagine they're pretty common in writing.

When the scenes are written like a movie script. (ie, he punched her in the nose and she threw her head back - it's SO ANNOYING)

When the scenes have too much detail.

When the author gets caught up in the moment and carried away. (Can tie into movie script)

When the character is perfect.

When the author does these cool unpredictable twists, but has no idea where to go afterwards and ends up doing in the luckiest way possible - best case scenario.

The author desperately tries to be a laugh a minute. (Actually, this is much worse in movies)

When the antogonist is flat. Just evil. They need controversy, or at least a mental condition (not necessarily defect, but maybe a sadist) to justify themselves!

When the first line is dialogue.

When the word "said" is said (hehe) too much.

When the same verbs are used over and over. (ie, He leaped. She leaped. They leaped. Bob leaped. Lilly leaped.)

When I can put the book down in the middle of the climax.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I'll go with the smart kids who save the adults. I hate those kinds of stories.

[motormind]

Most of the stuff mentioned here can work perfectly fine in the hands of a proficient writer. So I guess this means most people simply hate unskilled writers. Go figure.

[Mike Martyn]

Fight scenes in which it is obvious the author has never been in a fight, fitnessed a fight or even considered what happens when his protagonist gets kicked in the head. Or perhaps he is basing it on "research" spent watching dumb martial arts movies on which the protag takes mutiple kicks and punches and a plethera of strikes from a miscellany of Asian farm implements, shrugs, then pops back up for more.

[Freelancer]

Most of the stuff mentioned here can work perfectly fine in the hands of a proficient writer.
Proficient writer is not equal with proficient storyteller. You can be a proficient writer and you can write nice articles, damned good phrases, but that doesn't mean you can write a single fantasy novel with a long, complex story.

So I guess this means most people simply hate unskilled writers. Go figure.It's not about you're "unskilled". The difference is, you can be a skilled writer, you can write the greatest lines. But it worth nothing if you can't figure out a normal story, you're lazy to create something new, rather working with cliches, because you don't care with your own work at all. From that moment your skill worth absolutely nothing. Or other option, you can be an "unskilled" writer, but if you take your time to create something new, something what is making the difference and you're caring with your work... that can make a real difference between writer and writer and on this way, even an unskilled one can be better then the proficient one.

I've met with many writers, some of my were colleagues, whose had proficient writing skills, they were damned good in grammar (Quite better then me. :D ), but they knew absolutely nothing about storytelling and they never was able to create an original world or even a really original thought. So on one way, they were already worse then the unskilled writers, whose were able to create something new, something what is not a cliche.

[DustyBooks]

Girls who don't make their own decisions and just play along with whatever the guys are doing, even when this involves kicking butt. She might be physically strong, but I came across a novel where this was glaringly obvious and came across as weakness of character--the heroine did plenty, but it was never her idea!

[Kaiser-Kun]

Boring fight scenes. Their blades met in a shower of sparks. Dumbhero's sword fell in an overhead diagonal slash, striking with so much strenght that the sheer force of it made the bones in Evilman's arm tingle. Evilman's counterattack arrived as a two-handed thrust, missing Dumbhero's vital organs by 5.8 inches...

[The Lonely One]

Most of the stuff mentioned here can work perfectly fine in the hands of a proficient writer. So I guess this means most people simply hate unskilled writers. Go figure.

I kind of agree. I'm shocked by some of the things people hate. I try not to get annoyed at stories. If they're engaging they're engaging (which means the writer is skilled). If they aren't they aren't and I tend not to read those kinds.

I think readers who aren't writers give less of a flip about some of this stuff than we do--thank GOD. I wouldn't want readers that are this neurotic.

No offense.

[Tanydwr]

First and foremost - bad writing. In particular, bad grammar and stuff that doesn't make sense or is inaccurate. This drives me insane. I can cope with artistic grammar (fragments, parentheses, ellipses), but genuinely bad grammar with commas in the wrong places or not used at all makes me want to wrench out the writer's arms and beat them to death with them. (Not, I hasten to add, that that is feasible at all - a good couple of kicks to the head is a much more realisatic and easier way of doing things.)

Over-long paragraphs, especially in fight scenes. Actually, long setences in fight scenes as well. Once a paragraph hits a certain length, you begin to skim read.

Epigraphs that have nothing to do with the novel/chapter.

Inaccurate quoting. This isn't so bad in dialogue - that's where most misquotes occur - but it really irritates me in epigraphs or description. I want to yell: "It's 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much'!" and "Nor hath hell fury, nor!"

And I would like to take offence on behalf of Catherines (and Katherines, Kathryns, Cathryns, and every other spelling) everywhere on so many people's cruel comments regarding our name. Although I actually go by Catherine anyway... Some people are just lazy when it comes to typing out names of more than five letters. Or saying them. Mind you, I'd've clawed the eyes out of anyone who tried to call me 'Cathy'... (Wouldn't that have made a change to Wuthering Heights?)

[Cella]

I'm scared of this thread.

I kind of agree. I'm shocked by some of the things people hate. I try not to get annoyed at stories. If they're engaging they're engaging (which means the writer is skilled). If they aren't they aren't and I tend not to read those kinds.

I think readers who aren't writers give less of a flip about some of this stuff than we do--thank GOD. I wouldn't want readers that are this neurotic.

No offense.

^^this :D

[Slushie]

Poor writing is always a turnoff, though I'll put up with it if it's got interesting characters or stories. They just have to be good enough to make me forget how much it sucks.

Just about the only thing that really annoys me is having characters do something completely out of character...
This.

Sometimes the oldest stories, the ones told over and over, are the best. I don't care what's been "done before." Fucking everything has. There're something like eight possible plot lines for all of us to choose from, and buying into what has been 'overdone' just means you aren't good enough to tell it better, and you're buying into this market bullshit rather than telling your story.

If an author can tell me his or her story with the love and authority they have for it, I'll listen. Period. Period.

The greatest crime in storytelling is not telling them with your heart.
This. (I couldn't have worded it better myself.)


What annoys me? A novel that has clearly been edited to death, leaving a lifeless shell of words.
This.

I mean, style? voice? Those things are just literary masturbation. Writer's should follow The Formula and The Rules, that way we all sound the same and none of us will risk coming across as pretentious.
/sarcasm

I'm shocked (and dismayed) by the people who say they loathe stories told in first person present tense. Why? It seems such an arbitrary reason to dismiss a work without regard for the quality of the writing, the story, or the characters.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)
And this.


Christ, some of the other posts in this thread could have been written by Thomas Gradgrind. Don't know who that is? Read Hard Times; well, unless you don't like when a book opens with dialogue.

[Slushie]

A writer should draw interesting characters that tangle themselves inside a compelling plot.

Everything else is bullshit.

[Freelancer]

A writer should draw interesting characters that tangle themselves inside a compelling plot.
I agree with this...

Everything else is bullshit.
... but this is a damned false statement. When you're writing you're creating, crafting a new world, regardless it's new or a ripoff. Without a world, you have an interesting character, a compelling plot, which is good... but it is playing in a black hole as you don't know anything about the world itself. Balanced details are necessary. An interesting living world is necessary. None of them are bullshit.

[Geek_Pride]

I'm very selective when buying/borrowing books so there isn't a lot that annoys me. What does annoy me is when a book is advertised as one thing but it turns out to be something completely different.

And, I love present tense :D

[Slushie]

I agree with this...


... but this is a damned false statement. When you're writing you're creating, crafting a new world, regardless it's new or a ripoff. Without a world, you have an interesting character, a compelling plot, which is good... but it is playing in a black hole as you don't know anything about the world itself. Balanced details are necessary. An interesting living world is necessary. None of them are bullshit.

Right. But saying a story needs a setting is like saying a story needs a character. I'm just not going to care about a world unless I care about the characters and the things they do in that world.

[fullbookjacket]

1. Serial killers.
2. Vampires in love.

Gawd, it seems like 90% of the novels published these days incorporate one or both of these characters.

[Maxinquaye]

So, my romantic story about a vampire serial killer is hot?

[Phaeal]

-- Evil whose major goal is to destroy the world to rule on a pile of ashes later (Geez. That's the plan...)


Yeah, this is it. I want the Big Bad to win one time, look around at the mess, and slap his forehead: "Damn, what was I thinking? You, orc, go find me some good landscapers, architects and interior designers!"

"All dead, m'lord. And you know us orcs don't have no taste."

"Crap."

[Phaeal]

Inaccurate quoting. This isn't so bad in dialogue - that's where most misquotes occur - but it really irritates me in epigraphs or description. I want to yell: "It's 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much'!" and "Nor hath hell fury, nor!"


Actually, it's:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

;)

[Maxinquaye]

Yeah, this is it. I want the Big Bad to win one time, look around at the mess, and slap his forehead: "Damn, what was I thinking? You, orc, go find me some good landscapers, architects and interior designers!"

"All dead, m'lord. And you know us orcs don't have no taste."

"Crap."

Mary Gentle's, "Grunts", just saying. :)

[The Lonely One]

"Crap."

Which is consequently what they'd use to build the buildings. They're a lot more useful with an axe than a hammer, that's what I always say.

Or, that's what I would say if I knew any orcs...

[Slushie]

Well, orcs are related to trolls and those things are everywhere. You just have to go to this place called Innerwebz to find them.

[Gedaechtnis]

Worse than overdone spunky females are females who are supposed to kick-ass -- except we never see them kicking anybody's butt.

Like when the reviews (often by a certain female writer well known for her "spunky" heroines in some sort of medieval-ish land filled with magic and Scanrans)(wait is that too specific?) say that the heroine is kick-ass. Or something more polite.
Also:

Being beaten over the head with an obviously important fact that will be featured later on in the novel.

"Little did he know that in 24 hours this tidbit of fact would save his life."
--bearilou
Yes. This too. It's so obvious to me at least...even in Harry Potter, possibly because one knows to expect it. Any time a spell, potion, weird little tidbit, or famous person is mentioned: remember it, or Barty dies.

But Barty never dies...my life is complete :)

Also:
Authors who write books about "current issues" like anorexia, cutting, rape, bulimia, drug abuse, etc. just to be current and up-to-date. You know who you are.

[Rhoda Nightingale]

Oh, I forgot -- first person present.

BARF!
Meep!

*rethinks several chapters of multiple POV NaNo*

My peeves:

Overuse of adjectives, alliteration, or extended metaphors. Oh, and when YA authors refuse to swear, or use words like "freak," "crap" and "darn" to replace real obscenities. Weak! Go hard or go home!

[Adam]

I don't like writers who try and force feed me their opinion on an issue.

I couldn't give a flying f- what you think about X, Y or Z! Tell me a story! :rolleyes:

Other than that, as long as the story is good, I'm easy. ;)

[scarletpeaches]

And that's the problem. I like a good romance and I know there needs to be conflict or you don't have much of a story. Just wish writers would leave that old chestnut alone for awhile.Conflict, yes, but meaningless arguing just so the author can break 'em down later in the book and make them heart each other because it's twu wuv by page 200? BLARG.

[Gedaechtnis]

Also:
Characters (Wise Old Wizard, etc.) giving fancy riddles rather than actual advice. Now I understand that sometimes the Tough Young Swordfighting Hero actually needs to think sometimes, not just stab things, but there are appropriate times for riddles. Say, over a cup of something warm and non-alcoholic.

Anything that involves a tithe to some faerie court thing. Maybe the first take on Tam Lin was original, but not anymore. I know, I know...trends aren't always evil because some people need more time to get published than others, but really? I swear to...Sauron...if I see the words I am sae fair and fu o' flesh/I'm feard it be mysel' in a book ONE MORE TIME I will through it across the room. Tithes...they can be interesting. In moderation. And please, if you're obviously getting a hint of plot from Tam Lin, do not name a character Janet IF SHE'S NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY RELATING TO HOLDING PEOPLE! ALL NIGHT!

God, that sounds odd. Well. Posting before I can say anything else.

[heyjude]

I'm tired of the can-do-anything kick-ass heroine too.

Plus "sassy." I am *so* over the word sassy.

[MGraybosch]

"She's a gold-digging, manipulative ball-buster who hates the male species because of what her father did to her ... but she never forgets to feed Cuddles, her three-year-old Ragdoll cat."

I can guess at what Cuddles has been having for dinner. :evil

[MGraybosch]

Mary Gentle's, "Grunts", just saying. :)

I don't dare read that in public. I can't control the laughter.

[defcon6000]

Then suddenly it was af if the book had been taken over by someonelse. People started turning into zombies and the girl excaped becasuse she had slept through the disease that had caused it all. Very strange U-turn in teh book I wasn't impressed.
I find this happens in 98% of Hollywood movies these days (or decades).


Also:
Authors who write books about "current issues" like anorexia, cutting, rape, bulimia, drug abuse, etc. just to be current and up-to-date. You know who you are.
Well you just eliminated the whole "edgy" YA genre. :D

I dunno if I have anything to add that hasn't been said in three different ways in this thread...boring characters - check...not-so-well-developed plots - check...spunky females that remind everyone why Buffy was so annoying - check.

[MGraybosch]

I read a book by a NYT Bestseller where she had her protagonist putting bullets into the BARREL of a .38!

What?! I know you're not supposed to name names here, but I have got to know who was responsible for this one; this is worthy of a two-handed facepalm, and I haven't done that since playing alpha reader for a teenager at a local writing group who wrote a story in which the barbarian hero slays an evil wizard by throwing a six-foot-long broadsword across the room as if it were a spear.

I had no words. I just passed the kid's draft to another member of the group who wanted to know if I was OK. I thought that was the absolute limit of dumb shit writers do until I read your post about the mystery writer with the muzzle-loading .38.

By the way, here are my three simple rules about writing swordfights:


Your character should know not to hold the sharp end.
Your character should not throw his sword.
Your character should not use a sword with a curved blade as if it were a rapier, smallsword, or foil.

[defcon6000]

What?! I know you're not supposed to name names here, but I have got to know who was responsible for this one; this is worthy of a two-handed facepalm, and I haven't done that since playing alpha reader for a teenager at a local writing group who wrote a story in which the barbarian hero slays an evil wizard by throwing a six-foot-long broadsword across the room as if it were a spear.
LOLWTF.

[K.L. Townsend]

So, my romantic story about a vampire serial killer is hot?

Only if he's also emo. Is he emo? ;)

[MGraybosch]

LOLWTF.

I wish I was lying.

[Maxinquaye]

I don't dare read that in public. I can't control the laughter.

The questions becomes...

Do you laugh AT her or WITH her?

I readily admit that I liked it.

"Sergeant, pass me another elf, this one's split".

[EclipsesMuse]

Ok, what is with the books that have all nearly all the male supporting characters fall in love or lust with the femal protagonist? I understand one or two for drama, but in every book there's a new male interest?

[CocoCat]

When I notice the author's pet word or phrase. Many popular authors do this; probably not intentionally but I find it frustrating when the tension that's been building for two chapters is suddenly blown by my thinking 'There's that word again'.

When there's nothing else to think about other than the bare-bones story. Even fairy tales are laden with subtle connotations and social references of some sort. Reading a description of events in some fictional person's life makes me feel that I'm wasting valuable hours of my own.

[~*Kate*~]

I'm not a fan of 1st person present either, but will admit it can be done well. Rarely.

I hate when books don't stand on their own. If 300 pages haven't convinced me to pick up the next in the series, refusing to give me some closure sure as hell isn't going to do it.

[Albannach]

I'm shocked (and dismayed) by the people who say they loathe stories told in first person present tense.

Then I'm afraid you'll have to be shocked and dismayed because when it comes to present tense (first person is ok if it's well done) I've seen more people say they loathe it than the other way around. It is SUPPOSED to make me think it is happening NOW. Well, duh. I can see that it isn't happening now so it just keeps me from suspending disbelief.

I agree with the "kid saving the world"... I mean, come on guys. There are no competent adults in the entire universe? Hate that. It really is something that would do well to be dropped.

[kaitie]

I've read stories where children save the day (maybe not the world, but still) that are fantastic. The Bartimaeus trilogy is a good example. Granted, he's got help, but the adults in those books are mostly incompetent pricks and the reasoning why is clearly explained.

I think it just depends on the book.

[Albannach]

Sorry, MGraybosch, but I have to add more rules to your list of sword fighting rules:

NO FLIPS!! NO flips... seriously.

And if you sit down to try to avoid a swing, it puts your head about at the right head to be chopped off... SO DON'T. (Not to mention if they're so dumb to miss--they kill you while you're getting up. *rolls eyes)

Edit: kaitie, I don't think any explanation is going to convince me there are NO competent adults in the world. But hey, we all have our own tastes. It's what I hate not you. ;)

My list keeps getting longer, I notice. LOL

No one should write about guns without making their business to at least find out how they work and no one should write about swords without making their business to at least try swinging one. (NO, they are NOT so heavy that a normal nine-year-old can't pick one up, George RR Martin. *gives her favorite author a squinty look*)

[thethinker42]

Put me in the "don't like first person present tense" camp. Actually, I don't like present tense in first OR third. For some reason, it just never "feels" right to me, and is more often than not so distracting that I end up putting the book down.

[The Lonely One]

I have to stop reading this thread. I disagree with almost everything.

[third person]

"Not good." or, even WORSE, "This is SO not good."

really? no. just no. seriously. NO.

[kaitie]

Sorry, MGraybosch, but I have to add more rules to your list of sword fighting rules:

NO FLIPS!! NO flips... seriously.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhKNshePWQ

:D Okay, I know it's not the same lol, but I just had to include it because I'm trying to learn how to do that. My mother thinks it's insane, too. ;)

Ooh, here's a fun one in fight form. I am a long, long way from being able to do anything like this, btw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEYrdgnW6dk&feature=PlayList&p=D9386EBE8E5AFD8E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=65

I really do think a lot of the annoyances are just personal. Some people hate first person, I love it and prefer it over third most of the time. I think most if it's just a matter of personal taste. Unless we're just talking about poor writing ability, anyway.

[Albannach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhKNshePWQ

:D Okay, I know it's not the same lol, but I just had to include it because I'm trying to learn how to do that. My mother thinks it's insane, too. ;)

Ooh, here's a fun one in fight form. I am a long, long way from being able to do anything like this, btw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEYrdgnW6dk&feature=PlayList&p=D9386EBE8E5AFD8E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=65

I really do think a lot of the annoyances are just personal. Some people hate first person, I love it and prefer it over third most of the time. I think most if it's just a matter of personal taste. Unless we're just talking about poor writing ability, anyway.
On the flips, I don't think it's "insane". I've spent enough time in sword fight clubs to have a good idea what someone will do to you while you're pulling some fancy-looking move. And it ain't pretty. ;)

Amazing how hard it is to parry or dodge in mid-air. Seriously though, a lot of people don't understand the difference in choreography and fighting.

[thethinker42]

On the flips, I don't think it's "insane". I've spent enough time in sword fight clubs to have a good idea what someone will do to you while you're pulling some fancy-looking move. And it ain't pretty. ;)

Amazing how hard it is to parry or dodge in mid-air. Seriously though, a lot of people don't understand the difference in choreography and fighting.

No kidding. When I was a fencer, half the time I just had to wait for someone to show off and try something fancy, then move in for the kill. Save the flair for your Facebook page, folks.

[kaitie]

On the flips, I don't think it's "insane". I've spent enough time in sword fight clubs to have a good idea what someone will do to you while you're pulling some fancy-looking move. And it ain't pretty. ;)

Amazing how hard it is to parry or dodge in mid-air. Seriously though, a lot of people don't understand the difference in choreography and fighting.

Haha, I know. ;) I was mostly being a brat because this was the first thing I thought of lol.

At the same time, though, I think a little over the top is okay sometimes. As long as you aren't outright stretching the laws of physics, if you give me someone who is one of the best sword fighters in the world who has trained his entire life and then tell me he's done something crazy, I probably won't get too upset about it.

I'd like to also say, however, that it really depends on the situation and the type of weapon. But having someone do a flip with a sword and not stab himself in the process, or something equally extreme isn't all that different from the trend of the hero managing to shoot some really minuscule target, or fire a gun while in a moving car and have perfect aim or something like that.

Okay, point proven. Though I still think as long as it's not too goofy it won't bother me lol. Personal taste there again.

Hey, I have a character who chucks a gun down a hallway...should I be concerned? ;)

[Slushie]

Hey, I have a character who chucks a gun down a hallway...should I be concerned? ;)
As long as it's not a .50cal I think you're all right.

[kaitie]

As long as it's not a .50cal I think you're all right.

Damn! *runs off to fetch her red pen*

:tongue

[defcon6000]

No one should write about guns without making their business to at least find out how they work and no one should write about swords without making their business to at least try swinging one. (NO, they are NOT so heavy that a normal nine-year-old can't pick one up, George RR Martin. *gives her favorite author a squinty look*)
I'd edit this rule to say 'thou shalt not write about a subject/object that thou hasn't spent some time researching on.'

Really, how hard is it to google the gun/sword/whatever and read up on its use. It's so easy, a caveman could do it. :tongue

[MicheleLee]

Mine:
1. Writers trying to make a character sympathetic only by making all the other characters pick on them.

2. Stories where women/minorities are made into really negative or cliche characters. (I read a book this year where the male author had a female character say something like
"Knowledge is an ugly trait for a woman to have."

3. Romantic stories where the hero borderline or clearly rapes the heroine. Not. Cool.

[thethinker42]

Romantic stories where the hero borderline or clearly rapes the heroine. Not. Cool.

This. A thousand times this.

I can forgive a lot of things in a story, but this is not one of them. There might be an exception out there, where an author manages to successfully redeem the hero, but I haven't encountered it yet and I'm not holding my breath.

An example, and hell if I can remember the title or author anyway: The hero raped the heroine early in the story. A few chapters later, turns out he thought she was someone else, and made love to her instead. WHUT? Um. NO. Mistaken identity or not, making sweet love does not redeem rape. I don't know how the story turned out, because I threw the book across the room after that scene (which I only read because I thought she might come to her senses and kick him in the mouth for being a slurping douchecock).

/RANT

[half.jaded]

I don't like...

1.) Starting with a dream. *cough*Maximum Ride *coughcough* The rest of the book was fine, but the dream bothered me.

2.) Present tense. Cannot stand it. Your story better be compelling enough for me to forgive it.

3.) Heroines who are...I can't describe them. Falsely humble? Oo Something like that.

4.) Someone said it above: a new language that forces me to flip all the way to the back of the book just to understand it.

5.) Too Stupid To Live heroes/heroines who go around masquerading as the smartest guy in the world. GAAAAAH.

6.) Blocks of description. Maybe that's not a bad thing. I should learn how to do it. >>" I lack description. Heck, I skip any description in general, but once you've hit a pageful of description...

7.) Slow plots. As in slow, slow, slow plots. I'm generally more patient than my best friend, who puts the book aside if she doesn't see anything interesting in the first page. But still. If you've hit chapter 15 and you're not even halfway through your plot, your chapters better be five pages long.

I think that's it. Oh, and of course:

8.) Not-quite-subtle moral lessons. As in the ones that bash you in the head. *headdesk*

/rant

:D

[kaitie]

Mine:

3. Romantic stories where the hero borderline or clearly rapes the heroine. Not. Cool.

Oh, man, I completely agree with this. I read a book in college (that I absolutely can't remember the name of...gosh my professors would be so proud of me right now :rolleyes:) where in the beginning of the book the MC is raped by the eventual love interest. We had a big discussion/argument in class one day where the rest of the class was happy that they had gotten together, and two of us were left being completely appalled saying, "He RAPED her."

Come to think of it, that was an interesting class.

[MGraybosch]

Sorry, MGraybosch, but I have to add more rules to your list of sword fighting rules:

NO FLIPS!! NO flips... seriously.

And if you sit down to try to avoid a swing, it puts your head about at the right head to be chopped off... SO DON'T. (Not to mention if they're so dumb to miss--they kill you while you're getting up. *rolls eyes)

I agree with both, but I figured I'd stick to the basics. Remember the kid whose barbarian hero chucked a six-foot broadsword as if it were a friggin' spear?

But, yeah, don't duck a cut unless you're going to cut the other guy's legs out from under him while you're down there. Or, better yet -- just back up a bit.

No one should write about guns without making their business to at least find out how they work and no one should write about swords without making their business to at least try swinging one. (NO, they are NOT so heavy that a normal nine-year-old can't pick one up, George RR Martin. *gives her favorite author a squinty look*)

I've got my grandpa's M-1 Garand, and I used to have a bastard sword. I sold the sword because having it in the house made my wife nervous.

[Slushie]

Over half of The English Patient is written in third person present. It's one of my favorite books.

[ladyinpink]

While we're on the subject of romance novels, I'm real tired of novels that begin with the heroine hating the hero. Sometimes she has a reason for thinking he's a jerk and sometimes she has no reason whatsoever. You KNOW she's going to end up with him. Every time I see that scenario I stop reading. I know I'm going to be bored out of my tree.

my characters click right away, but then my main mc has reason to think he put her into a dangerous situation on purpose and is very skeptical of him for a few chapters until that gets cleared up.

i also have a character who is destined to save the world! not all by herself though lol. and she's not not a wuss but she isn't exactly the strong hero type either.

and my book is 32 chapters and doesn't reach full steam until chapter 17, which i suppose makes my plot slow.

sounds like this is just a disaster to some.

but, in other news, the whole book is written in English and there are no dream scenes! woohoo, i get two points. yay me :)

in defense to children saving the world, id venture to say there are a few reasons a child might do better:

people underestimate the capabilities of children, making their job a little easier.

adults have an f'd up way of thinking (i mean come on, the majority of adults think there is nothing wrong with hitting a child, but if they hit another adult they are in trouble - and most people see nothing wrong with this O.o - yes, it is of course okay because parents somehow 'own' their children, making them less human, and therefor the only members of society who want be attacked without attacking first... the helpless members or society who are living with people they didn't choose have no protection, but adults who choose abusive spouses can get help. it's insane - but because this is widely seen as acceptable in the US, i have to say that i do find not so hard to believe there aren't enough competent adults in this world to make a difference.) - children, on the other hand, have had less time to become jaded by the limits put on people by society, from strange things you aren't allowed to do to things you are allowed to do that should be a crime.


however, in the case of my story, the MC only appears to be a kid (17/18) but her spirit is over 300 years old.

[MicheleLee]

An example, and hell if I can remember the title or author anyway: The hero raped the heroine early in the story. A few chapters later, turns out he thought she was someone else, and made love to her instead. WHUT? Um. NO. Mistaken identity or not, making sweet love does not redeem rape. I don't know how the story turned out, because I threw the book across the room after that scene (which I only read because I thought she might come to her senses and kick him in the mouth for being a slurping douchecock).

/RANT


OMG So it was okay for him to intend to rape another woman and so she just laughed it off?

[thethinker42]

OMG So it was okay for him to intend to rape another woman and so she just laughed it off?

Something like that. I didn't stick around to find out what she said/thought after they had their lurve scene. That book hit the wall so hard it dented the plaster.

[kaitie]

I think that's it. Oh, and of course:

8.) Not-quite-subtle moral lessons. As in the ones that bash you in the head. *headdesk*

/rant

:D

Oh man! I completely forgot about this, but it's one of my biggest pet peeves. I don't care if I agree with the issue being presented, if a book gets preachy it drives me nuts. My favorite writer has started doing this more overtly than usual and I've been finding it frustrating.

[Albannach]

I agree with both, but I figured I'd stick to the basics. Remember the kid whose barbarian hero chucked a six-foot broadsword as if it were a friggin' spear?

But, yeah, don't duck a cut unless you're going to cut the other guy's legs out from under him while you're down there. Or, better yet -- just back up a bit.



I've got my grandpa's M-1 Garand, and I used to have a bastard sword. I sold the sword because having it in the house made my wife nervous.
You'll pardon my amusement that an M-1 Garand does't make your wife nervous but a sword does.

[kaitie]

You'll pardon my amusement that an M-1 Garand does't make your wife nervous but a sword does.

Haha, my thoughts exactly. :)

[aadams73]

I can forgive almost anything if I'm being entertained, except maybe Too Stupid To Live characters.

I also pitched a James Rollins book mid-read one time because he used a piece of Aussie slang incorrectly. It was plain old sloppy research.

[Wayne K]

I tossed "Marley and Me" because the douchebag insulted working class people.

[MGraybosch]

You'll pardon my amusement that an M-1 Garand does't make your wife nervous but a sword does.

I only load the rifle when I'm at the firing range, and otherwise keep the ammo locked away from the rifle. Swords, however, don't need ammo. You just have to get it out, and you're ready to get it on.

[Gedaechtnis]

I only load the rifle when I'm at the firing range, and otherwise keep the ammo locked away from the rifle. Swords, however, don't need ammo. You just have to get it out, and you're ready to get it on.

I take some of my classes at a military academy where the officers have swords.
I don't think I'm going back...:)

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

*cough*Maximum Ride *coughcough*

Oh my god...I tried not to point out specifics, I really did...but most of my earlier ones were directly aimed at the entire MR series. GAAAAAAAAH!

[Kristiina]

Your character should not throw his sword.



But but but - it worked in 'Ladyhawke'!

[Cyia]

2.) Present tense. Cannot stand it. Your story better be compelling enough for me to forgive it.


I used to think this. Then I tried it and now I can't stop. "Heeeeeelp meeeeeeeeeee," she says in a tiny fly-like voice.


3.) Heroines who are...I can't describe them. Falsely humble? Oo Something like that.


YES. Those phony - "I'm so sweet and unassuming, but we all know I'm better than any one of you... or half of you together." characters. NO one is that sweet, and NO one is that well liked.


5.) Too Stupid To Live heroes/heroines who go around masquerading as the smartest guy in the world. GAAAAAH.


It works if everyone's in on the joke that the guy is a moron.


7.) Slow plots. As in slow, slow, slow plots. I'm generally more patient than my best friend, who puts the book aside if she doesn't see anything interesting in the first page. But still. If you've hit chapter 15 and you're not even halfway through your plot, your chapters better be five pages long.

Tell her to read James Patterson :D


8.) Not-quite-subtle moral lessons. As in the ones that bash you in the head. *headdesk*



I agree, so long as you don't include "preachy" characters who have it as a trait. The author isn't trying to hammer a lesson in, but the character is. They make good foils.

[Codger]

First and foremost - bad writing. In particular, bad grammar and stuff that doesn't make sense or is inaccurate. This drives me insane. I can cope with artistic grammar (fragments, parentheses, ellipses), but genuinely bad grammar with commas in the wrong places or not used at all makes me want to wrench out the writer's arms and beat them to death with them. (Not, I hasten to add, that that is feasible at all - a good couple of kicks to the head is a much more realisatic and easier way of doing things.)

Over-long paragraphs, especially in fight scenes. Actually, long setences in fight scenes as well. Once a paragraph hits a certain length, you begin to skim read.

Epigraphs that have nothing to do with the novel/chapter.

Inaccurate quoting. This isn't so bad in dialogue - that's where most misquotes occur - but it really irritates me in epigraphs or description. I want to yell: "It's 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much'!" and "Nor hath hell fury, nor!"

And I would like to take offence on behalf of Catherines (and Katherines, Kathryns, Cathryns, and every other spelling) everywhere on so many people's cruel comments regarding our name. Although I actually go by Catherine anyway... Some people are just lazy when it comes to typing out names of more than five letters. Or saying them. Mind you, I'd've clawed the eyes out of anyone who tried to call me 'Cathy'... (Wouldn't that have made a change to Wuthering Heights?)

Tandywr, I agree with most of of what you say. I am particularly annoyed by authors who unilaterally decide to suspend grammar, spelling and punctuation conventions. There is just something so egomaniacal about this attitude, that I can't set it aside and enjoy their work. (Doctorow, C. McCarthy, et al.)

I guess I just don't "get it." It strikes me as being incredibly immature. I can't think of a single example where the author's departure from accepted conventions actually improved the finished product.

Maybe I'm a grammar nazi.

[MGraybosch]

But but but - it worked in 'Ladyhawke'!

I thought it ruined the movie. :evil

[MGraybosch]

I guess I just don't "get it." It strikes me as being incredibly immature. I can't think of a single example where the author's departure from accepted conventions actually improved the finished product.

Maybe I'm a grammar nazi.

I don't get it either. If I tried to write a C# program that didn't conform to the syntax expected by the C# compiler, the compiler would refuse to make an executable of my code. If I don't get to break syntax rules as a programmer, why should writers get to break English grammar?

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

Tell her to read James Patterson :D

His chapters are what, two pages?

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

I don't get it either. If I tried to write a C# program that didn't conform to the syntax expected by the C# compiler, the compiler would refuse to make an executable of my code. If I don't get to break syntax rules as a programmer, why should writers get to break English grammar?
They get paid less?

[kuwisdelu]

I don't get it either. If I tried to write a C# program that didn't conform to the syntax expected by the C# compiler, the compiler would refuse to make an executable of my code. If I don't get to break syntax rules as a programmer, why should writers get to break English grammar?

That's like asking "why do artists get to color outside the lines?"

[Codger]

That's like asking "why do artists get to color outside the lines?"


So, are you saying that "because I can" is an acceptable rationale for departing from readability? If the reader is left not understanding what the author wrote, who was served?

[Slushie]

So, are you saying that "because I can" is an acceptable rationale for departing from readability? If the reader is left not understanding what the author wrote, who was served?

I read his post as saying that programming is a formula, whereas writing is an art. That was my interpretation and I agree.

[Cyia]

I thought it ruined the movie.

But it was cool at the end of Braveheart. (granted that was a BIG guy and not a javelin throw.)

[Maxinquaye]

But it was cool at the end of Braveheart. (granted that was a BIG guy and not a javelin throw.)

That would ruin it for me. :)

A sword wouldn't be a particularly airodynamic thing, and for balance reason I would assume the hilt is heavier than the blade, with would make the blade turn in the air and hit someone with the blunt end.

[Slushie]

That would ruin it for me. :)

A sword wouldn't be a particularly airodynamic thing, and for balance reason I would assume the hilt is heavier than the blade, with would make the blade turn in the air and hit someone with the blunt end.

Of course, it could knock said target out. Then the tosser could pick it up from the floor and decapitate said stunned target. Just sayin'.

[DeleyanLee]

Heroes who win simply because the bad guys are morons that the average kindergartener could take down.

Books that don't fulfill the story promises made throughout the book and gives a "surprise ending" that totally negates everything that happened in the previous 2-3-900 pages. Especially if said "surprise ending" (as my daughter says) "totally rapes" any of the major characters.

[Cyia]

That would ruin it for me. :)

A sword wouldn't be a particularly airodynamic thing, and for balance reason I would assume the hilt is heavier than the blade, with would make the blade turn in the air and hit someone with the blunt end.

Yeah, but... but... but .... it's tradition. If you toss the sword and it sticks in the ground, it's a "yes". If it falls flat, it's a "no".

[Slushie]

Heroes who win simply because the bad guys are morons that the average kindergartener could take down.

Books that don't fulfill the story promises made throughout the book and gives a "surprise ending" that totally negates everything that happened in the previous 2-3-900 pages. Especially if said "surprise ending" (as my daughter says) "totally rapes" any of the major characters.

Or like:
...then he woke up and realized it was all a dream.

I think Alice In Wonderland would be the exception to that.

[Cyia]

Or like:
...then he woke up and realized it was all a dream.

I think Alice In Wonderland would be the exception to that.

The Wizard of Oz.

[Slushie]

Whoops. Forgot.

[MGraybosch]

I read his post as saying that programming is a formula, whereas writing is an art. That was my interpretation and I agree.

All I'm going to say on that subject is that if computer programming was a formula and not an art, then we wouldn't need humans to do it. :)

Also, Donald E. Knuth would have to change the title of his magnum opus (http://www.amazon.com/Art-Computer-Programming-Volumes-Boxed/dp/0201485419/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259622833&sr=8-1).

[Alan Yee]

The Wizard of Oz.

The movie version, yes. In the book, Dorothy really did go to Oz.

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

...Which is why the book was awesome and the movie wasn't.

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

All I'm going to say on that subject is that if computer programming was an art and not a formula, then we wouldn't need humans to do it. :)

Wait...isn't that backwards?

[MGraybosch]

Wait...isn't that backwards?

Yes, and I'm drunk. These things happen. :)

[Cyia]

The movie version, yes. In the book, Dorothy really did go to Oz.

And met a lot more people. And the city was silver. And it was really a civics lesson. And... I like the movie.

[Alan Yee]

And met a lot more people. And the city was silver. And it was really a civics lesson. And... I like the movie.

Don't get me wrong. I like the movie, too. In fact, I quote the lines and songs whenever the opportunity arises. But I hated that the film-makers changed it so that it was all a dream.

[kuwisdelu]

I read his post as saying that programming is a formula, whereas writing is an art. That was my interpretation and I agree.

Exactly.

I do agree with MGray that something like programming requires creativity. So does developing new ideas in mathematics or theoretical physics. But the difference is that in fields like these, the rules are hard and fast. Whether you can break a rule or not is testable and (mostly) absolute.

The same cannot be said of writing.

The only hard and fast rule is that something must work. People will definitely disagree with whether a certain style or technique or plot device "works" or not for them, but just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

That's why the thread is titled "What ANNOYS you," not what is right and wrong.

[Neversage]

I'll bite.

Not in any particular order:
Present tense. I just can't deal with it.
What I call boxing-glove violence, where characters can take blow after blow and suffer almost no consequences.
Pet words. You know that word the author uses every time they can.
Excessive use of stock descriptions. Ample bosom, cool breeze, blinding light.
Characters who are obviously there only because the author wanted to write them, but could easily be written out without hurting the story.
Clever and well-developed plots that have obvious or unfit endings.
Serial characters that the author tries to re-invent as their own.
Trying to make your plot clever, mysterious, complex, or suspenseful by not giving the reader enough information to follow it.
Fantasy novels with a collection of cliche characters. The halfling thief, the dwarf alcoholic brawler, the elf spellcaster, the burly warrior with a name like Gringr.
When every attractive female has the same description.

This might be the worst one: when you can tell the author doesn't think their own story is believable.

On the flipside, some things I love to see in novels are:

Villains that I hate and despise so much, I have to put the book down for a moment.
Heroes that make mistakes.
When the author knows just how much of the detail I need to hear.
Supporting characters that influence the plot, but don't take the wheel or backseat drive.

And probably the best: when you think back on what you read, and it is so vivid, it's hard not to think it was just another real memory.

[The Lonely One]

I think many things mentioned in this thread should be done in defiance of this thread, for the safety of literature.

[kuwisdelu]

I think many things mentioned in this thread should be done in defiance of this thread, for the safety of literature.

I'll take first person present.

[Slushie]

Tomorrow, I'll write a short story with a clever/mysterious plot that opens with dialogue, uses my favorite words/phrases, includes a dream scene and various sword tossing acts, and will write in "heaving bosom" at least once...all in present tense.

Once it's done and polished, I'll post in LitSYW. Just for you TLO. :D

[Cyia]

Tomorrow, I'll write a short story with a clever/mysterious plot that opens with dialogue, uses my favorite words/phrases, includes a dream scene and various sword tossing acts, and will write in "heaving bosom" at least once...all in present tense.

Once it's done and polished, I'll post in LitSYW. Just for you TLO. :D

"Rats."

The mysterious woman in red tosses a sword with her heaving bosom, trying to kill said dirty rats.

But then she wakes up, checks her reflection in the bus' window halfway into her journey and realizes it was all a dream... and that she is actually a man.

:D

[Kaiser-Kun]

"Rats."

The mysterious woman in red tosses a sword with her heaving bosom, trying to kill said dirty rats.

But then she wakes up, checks her reflection in the bus' window halfway into her journey and realizes it was all a dream... and that she is actually a man.

:D

But oh no! Our story takes an unexpected turn, for the reflection in the mirror is actually a window and the so-called "reflection" was actually the evil twin of our protagonist.. Dark Woman.

[Slushie]

But oh no! Our story takes an unexpected turn, for the reflection in the mirror is actually a window and the so-called "reflection" was actually the evil twin of our protagonist.. Dark Woman.

Dark Woman comes closer to the window and ManWoman becomes fearful with the purple anger of a million sparkling stars.

"I's 'ur durn mammy," says Dark Woman

ManWoman recoils in glistening disbelief at these malevolent words of language uttered by the woman of darkness.

The plot thickens, and little does ManWoman know but she is about to find this information invaluable by page twelve.

[Cyia]

Sadly ManWoman shall not live that long, for her seat mate is the rarest of creatures - the daylight activated werebeastie.

This is a case for "black leather clad, butt kicking, slayer woman".

*Time Warp plays in the background*

[Slushie]

The lithe black leather clad form of Kat (not to be confused with catwoman) heaves her breasts into the plot.

She throws a longsword like a javelin at the werebeastie. But the werebeastie is too lithe for the leather form of Kat. The tiny thing mutates into a vampire and sparkles her in the face.

[Maxinquaye]

The busdriver's werepoodle runs after the sword and brings it back to Kat.

[Cyia]

Not realizing that Kat's weakness is werepoodles. She melts into a quivering pile of gelatinous goo. (Implants and swords never mix well.)

[The Lonely One]

To everyone in thread's disgust, the story is told in present-tense. The characters don't seem to notice.

[Slushie]

IMO, present tense adds a sense of immediacy and intimacy to a story. I'll never understand why people don't like it, but all it takes is a quick forum search to see it is not well received by a majority of posters. Then again, is this site an accurate representation of the reading public as a whole? I doubt it. Still, I've always wondered if it decreases saleability of a ms (in the eyes of an agent)?

*shrugs*


ETA:
To everyone in thread's disgust, the story is told in present-tense. The characters don't seem to notice.
Are you saying the characters are real people? Do you follow them around, too? ;)

[Maxinquaye]

I don't think most readers care much, in the end. They don't see the steel bars running through the reinforced concrete of the story, just the nice house that the bars contribute too.

I don't think novel writers can avoid turning a novel around, looking at how it was built, searching for the zipper at the back of it, or the nails holding it together. So, we form opinions of the technique of it, and let that colour our reading experience.

[Gecko Girl]

I can't stand "psychic connections" in romance novels. You know- when the hero and heroine can literally experience each other's thoughts and feelings because of their "bond." That totally creeps me out! I wouldn't want someone reading my mind and reading about that sort of thing in a novel just makes me uncomfortable.

I also hate fight scenes that are too long and too intricately described. It turns into a description of the mechanics of the fight and loses the feeling and excitement. Kind of like a badly written sex scene. You know there's a problem when you find yourself skimming...

[The Lonely One]

Are you saying the characters are real people? Do you follow them around, too? ;)

Most of the characters don't believe in me. Thus it is easy to follow them without being noticed.

[Libbie]

Quirkiness for quirkiness's sake.



THIS!!

It's gotten to the point that I don't beta-read anything that's described as quirky, humorous, or light anymore. I am so over the quirk factor. I rarely even help out with these query letters in QLH. I'm just tired of seeing it.

[Kristiina]

Or like:
...then he woke up and realized it was all a dream.

I think Alice In Wonderland would be the exception to that.

Rex Stout and 'Under the Andes'. Since I think his Nero Wolfe books are works of a genius, my screams of frustration at the ending of that book were somewhat mitigated by the comforting thought that even Mr. Stout's writing wasn't perfect in the beginning. So if he could go from that book to the Nero Wolfe stories, even I may have hope yet.

'Under the Andes' can be found at Project Gutenberg. It's not that bad otherwise, but the ending negates the rest of the story quite thoroughly.

[Libbie]

Put me in the "don't like first person present tense" camp. Actually, I don't like present tense in first OR third. For some reason, it just never "feels" right to me, and is more often than not so distracting that I end up putting the book down.

Bwa ha ha ha!

My second published short story was in present tense. BWAAAA!!!!

EAT IT, ABSOLUTE WRITE! hahahaha.


j/k, I love yous guys.

[Kristiina]

I read Edding's 'Belgariad' and 'Malloreon' series a long time ago, but one of the irritating things about them I remember is that while the male characters varied in looks, they all found love interests, and all those women were described as beautiful. The way I recall it, as stunningly beautiful. I'm actually rather fond of good-looking characters in books, so I guess the problem was that felt sort of unfair - why would all the guys fall in love only with beauties, while the beauties were given guys who were mostly described as rather ordinary looking. If just a woman or two would have been described as average, or sort of homely (but of course she'd look beautiful to him), no problem.

[Albannach]

Bwa ha ha ha!

My second published short story was in present tense. BWAAAA!!!!

EAT IT, ABSOLUTE WRITE! hahahaha.


j/k, I love yous guys.
Well, no one said everyone dislikes it, just a lot of people. :) Of course, first person stories sell especially to literary markets.

I gave some thought about why it bothers me so much and I think I put my finger on it.

With a past tense narrative you start out in agreement with the storyteller who is telling you that this is something that happened in the past. Yes. It's obviously NOT happening now so there's no discordance; we're in agreement. Having established agreement, assuming a good story, I willingly suspend disbelief and get sucked into the story, forgetting the tense altogether unless something pulls me out of the story.

With present tense you start with a discordance. The author is lying. This is NOT happening now. I can clearly see it isn't happening now, and I don't much like authors who lie to me... I don't establish any agreement; I don't suspend my disbelief (even with a good story) because I can't. I soon put the novel down, never to pick it up again except maybe to give it away.

Anyway, I think that's the basis of my reaction. Obviously, not everyone reacts that way, but from conversations I've had, it seems that many do.

[MGraybosch]

She throws a longsword like a javelin at the werebeastie. But the werebeastie is too lithe for the leather form of Kat. The tiny thing mutates into a vampire and sparkles her in the face.

Isn't that rather kinky for a first date?

[half.jaded]

I can't stand "psychic connections" in romance novels. You know- when the hero and heroine can literally experience each other's thoughts and feelings because of their "bond." That totally creeps me out! I wouldn't want someone reading my mind and reading about that sort of thing in a novel just makes me uncomfortable.

I also hate fight scenes that are too long and too intricately described. It turns into a description of the mechanics of the fight and loses the feeling and excitement. Kind of like a badly written sex scene. You know there's a problem when you find yourself skimming...

YES!!

Psychic connections are evil. And so are really long fight scenes. ^^

[Cyia]

I wonder if the rise in popularity of RPG doesn't have something to do with more young readers enjoying present tense stories. RP is usually played in present.

[Neversage]

I think many things mentioned in this thread should be done in defiance of this thread, for the safety of literature.

I wrote a short story yesterday about a red-bearded dwarf who prized said beard above all else. /shrug

Upon further review, perhaps another short story is in order, in which as many of these rules as possible are broken. Written in present tense, first person from the perspective of Kat Steele, a young tomboy heroine who attends a special high school for the insanely gifted Jedi Wizards. It will also be written entirely in the passive voice. I think I've just made myself sick. Excuse me.

[Maxinquaye]

I wrote a short story yesterday about a red-bearded dwarf who prized said beard above all else. /shrug

I could write a story about a werepoodle killing a man by throwing a sword, in first person present tense?

[Libbie]

Well, no one said everyone dislikes it, just a lot of people. :) Of course, first person stories sell especially to literary markets.

It is true that present tense (mine is third present) tends to do better in literary markets, but in the case of my short story it was a fantasy, albeit a literaryish one. The fact that it's a flash probably helped. I'm sure it made it more bearable to suffer through the present-tense horrors. ;)


With present tense you start with a discordance. The author is lying.

Ahhh, I see. Well, I like discordance and telling the truth via lying. My next book is about one of the most discordant pieces of music ever; it was so shocking and disturbing in its discordance that it caused a riot at its premier. Yay!!

And I am very fond of street magic, which is just a whole bunch of slick lies.

So you see where my tastes lie. Present tense is just perfect for me.

This is NOT happening now. I can clearly see it isn't happening now, and I don't much like authors who lie to me... I don't establish any agreement; I don't suspend my disbelief (even with a good story) because I can't. I soon put the novel down, never to pick it up again except maybe to give it away.

To be serious, I think the very reason why I like present tense so well is because it forces me to get into the story even more than I usually do. It demands that I picture myself within the scene, and that I live it as I read it. Present tense stories often feel more poignant and important to me than those told in other tenses. It really does only work if the writing is good, though, of course.

Anyway, I think that's the basis of my reaction. Obviously, not everyone reacts that way, but from conversations I've had, it seems that many do.

Yes, alas, many do. :'( Too bad. I love present tense, and I'd write more of it if I thought I could sell it.

[StephenP]

"Hi there, science fiction reader! I'm an alien from a planet you'll never see, or perhaps I'm a human from a parallel universe. Take your pick. It doesn't really matter, because I'm only here as a mouthpiece for the decidedly liberal/progressive society the author wishes your world was. For the next 290 pages, I will go through the motions of a thin, broken plot as I explain how my peaceful, clean home world operates while passive-aggressively criticizing yours. Did you know my people do not even have a word for war? And wait a minute, you... you EAT animals? Why does your air smell so horrible? My sensitive alien nose can't take it. Hold on while I go get my flogger, and then when I come back you can tell me all about this thing you humans call 'religion.'"

[Slushie]

Isn't that rather kinky for a first date?

Maybe. Depends on your definition of "sparkle". . .

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

"Hi there, science fiction reader! I'm an alien from a planet you'll never see, or perhaps I'm a human from a parallel universe. Take your pick. It doesn't really matter, because I'm only here as a mouthpiece for the decidedly liberal/progressive society the author wishes your world was. For the next 290 pages, I will go through the motions of a thin, broken plot as I explain how my peaceful, clean home world operates while passive-aggressively criticizing yours. Did you know my people do not even have a word for war? And wait a minute, you... you EAT animals? Why does your air smell so horrible? My sensitive alien nose can't take it. Hold on while I go get my flogger, and then when I come back you can tell me all about this thing you humans call 'religion.'"
I wouldn't mind that if it was done well. Some people need a good kick in the pants. For example, religion is the number one killer. Novels annoy me when they describe it as a "messenger of peace".

[The Lonely One]

Well, no one said everyone dislikes it, just a lot of people. :) Of course, first person stories sell especially to literary markets.

I gave some thought about why it bothers me so much and I think I put my finger on it.

With a past tense narrative you start out in agreement with the storyteller who is telling you that this is something that happened in the past. Yes. It's obviously NOT happening now so there's no discordance; we're in agreement. Having established agreement, assuming a good story, I willingly suspend disbelief and get sucked into the story, forgetting the tense altogether unless something pulls me out of the story.

With present tense you start with a discordance. The author is lying. This is NOT happening now. I can clearly see it isn't happening now, and I don't much like authors who lie to me... I don't establish any agreement; I don't suspend my disbelief (even with a good story) because I can't. I soon put the novel down, never to pick it up again except maybe to give it away.

Anyway, I think that's the basis of my reaction. Obviously, not everyone reacts that way, but from conversations I've had, it seems that many do.


To believe present tense is happening now is as stupid as believing past tense happened then. Yet everyone who reads a book does it. It is also, I believe, mistaking time with place (though maybe they are the same thing, afterall). It seems a strange distinction to me to say that while we believe something fictional happened before in another place--as obviously it didn't happen anywhere we've ever been--the present tense intends you to change your present to theirs. I think this shift in place is also happening in present tense, by the way these stories also have settings.

I have also heard the argument: "how is the character writing the story as it happens?" To believe the character is writing a story is to misunderstand the purpose of the text itself. It is not a writing, it is a medium of imagining.

But anyways I'm just bitching. And that's probably annoying so I'll stop.

[Cyia]

Yes, alas, many do. :'( Too bad. I love present tense, and I'd write more of it if I thought I could sell it.


I've heard The Forest of Hands and Teeth is 1st person present. Maybe it works better for YA. I know the pieces I've posted in SYW haven't put commenters off for their POV.

[The Lonely One]

Maybe. Depends on your definition of "sparkle". . .

Oh, I have many...

[Slushie]

Time Traveler's Wife
House of Sand and Fog
Choke
Fight Club
Ilium
Olympos
Rabbit, Run
Line of Vision
The Sound of My Voice
Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas
Cat's Eye
All Quiet On The Western Front (one of my all time favorites)
The English Patient (also one of my all time favorites)
American Psycho
Independence Day
A Million Little Pieces
High Fidelity
The Pacific Between<<<<(why does this title sound familiar????)

I haven't read all of them, but there are several (IMO) awesome books on that list. I think [general] you are needlessly limiting yourself by discarding first person present. Taste is a funny thing.

[myrmidon]

I love first person present. It's not always the right choice, but I don't think it's always the wrong choice either.

(and I'm totally not saying that because I'm working on revisions with my agent for my first person present tense novel right now...not at all...no way). ;)

[xcomplex]

Yes lots of you guys hate present tense out here, I also dont write in it, but if its a great story in present tense than I will enjoy it as much as any other tense.

[Quossum]

I dislike the tendency, in "spunky" female MC's particularly in YA historical fiction but in other genres as well, to denigrate "girl stuff" in favor of "boy stuff."

Really, how many girls have to bemoan how horrible their stitching looks and how boring and useless it is to have to do it while the boys are out doing fun boy stuff? Can't we have a girl who's spunky and yet also finds pleasure in creating beautiful pictures with thread? Or a boy who bemoans having to do swordplay and horse chores when he'd rather be working on a lovely piece of embroidery or knitting some warm, useful socks?

If there's a female character who actually *enjoys* "girl stuff," she's inevitably a secondary character, often portrayed as simpering, a tool, or a moron. :rolleyes:

--Q

[Priene]

Novels annoy me when they describe it as a "messenger of peace".

It'd be great if a messenger of peace (preferably extra-terrestrial with golden skin and dark, shining eyes) turned up and started doing what real peacemakers do: drawing up draft constitutions, debating treaty terms, negotiating acceptable borders, starting a Truth and Reconciliation hearing, setting up inter-community desegregation initiatives. Baffling the earthlings with their attention to administrative detail, that sort of thing.

[IdiotsRUs]

I dislike the tendency, in "spunky" female MC's particularly in YA historical fiction but in other genres as well, to denigrate "girl stuff" in favor of "boy stuff."

Really, how many girls have to bemoan how horrible their stitching looks and how boring and useless it is to have to do it while the boys are out doing fun boy stuff? Can't we have a girl who's spunky and yet also finds pleasure in creating beautiful pictures with thread? Or a boy who bemoans having to do swordplay and horse chores when he'd rather be working on a lovely piece of embroidery or knitting some warm, useful socks?

If there's a female character who actually *enjoys* "girl stuff," she's inevitably a secondary character, often portrayed as simpering, a tool, or a moron. :rolleyes:

--Q

Hehe I said the same thing in the 'What you hate in fantasy' thread. Feisty princess syndrome.

Which is why most of my girls love their girly stuff ( even though I would be the girl bemoaning her stitching IRL) and use them to their advantage. It's amazing what a well-turned leg dressed in nothing much can get you :D

[swvaughn]

Fantasy novels with a collection of cliche characters. The halfling thief, the dwarf alcoholic brawler, the elf spellcaster, the burly warrior with a name like Gringr.

I want a burly elven thief with a name like Moonflower, a half-dwarf who can't grow a beard and has serious claustrophobia, a skinny punk-ass warrior that never fights because he always kills the wrong target, and an intelligent magic-using orc (or goblin).

Hmmm...

*wanders off to write epic fantasy*

[Sir Valeq]

I'm annoyed by any sagas longer than 3. I like story arcs that aren't a simple A->B and require some setup, but going through 6 tomes of more or less irrelevant subplots to see the A connected to B in the end of the 7th tome... No thanks.

[Rhoda Nightingale]

Question for all you people harpooning first person present: Varying tenses for varying POVs? My hope is that this dreaded tense is less "annoying" when only used for one character.

[bearilou]

I want a burly elven thief with a name like Moonflower, a half-dwarf who can't grow a beard and has serious claustrophobia, a skinny punk-ass warrior that never fights because he always kills the wrong target, and an intelligent magic-using orc (or goblin).

Hmmm...

*wanders off to write epic fantasy*

Let me know when you're done so I can go buy it when it comes out. :D

[unicornjam]

Too much suspension of disbelief.

[Thump]

- Prophecy: I'm tired of heroes who have to do something just because some oracle said they were "The One".
- if there are two strong women, they have to be rivals: come on! Can't two women admire each other?
- Heroes with only one parents: having two parents doesn't mean you can't be heroic
- Twins for no other purpose that "OMG! Twins is so cool!": you can very close to a regular sibling.
- That "feisty princess syndrome" mentionned above: it's cool when well done but I want a princess who likes her embroidery and wants loads of babies AND can kick ass... kinda like me ;)
- Chosing the macho man: I would rather the heroine falls for the soft, sensitive, not very adventurous bard who adores her rather than the dashing, confident, swords-man/pirate, just once? Please?
- MCs who describe themselves as plain and unattractive but are complaining about features generally considered attractive ("oh, my boobs are too big", "my hair is this boring shade of gold"...). Also, I would like a female MC that's genuinely very plain or *gasp* ugly and having people like her because she's a cool person first.
- Emo MCs
- Kids not getting along with their perfectly nice step-parent. If the story is about a kid coming to terms with a parent's death and the other's remarriage, okay, but in most cases, it is so not necessary.

[Thump]

Just thought of some other things that annoy me. chief among them is writers who chicken out!
I read this series of books that were amazing. By the time I got to the ninth book in the series, the final book, everything seemed to be pointing towards a gay-ish pairing at the end. It didn't even have to be but the relationship between the two main, male chars got really intense and then the writing became really rushed, the author killed off the man who had married the woman the MC supposedly loved (although that came off more like his obsession for a "normal" life) and he goes off to marry this woman while the other male char, who was devoted to the hero, goes off all alone...
Either the writer or the editor or both chickened out. I'm not a fan of gay relationships for their own sake but these two chars should have stayed together even if not as lovers but only as very good friends.

It also really annoys me when men fall in love with gorgeous women because they're beautiful but the author tries to disguise it and justify it by saying the women also have great personalities (which the male char only finds out AFTER he's smitten...) and of course the women fall for them too, regardless of their own appearance. I want a handsome hero falling in love with the overweight, socially-inept secretary who's brave, clever and kind.

[Etola]

I dislike the tendency, in "spunky" female MC's particularly in YA historical fiction but in other genres as well, to denigrate "girl stuff" in favor of "boy stuff."

Really, how many girls have to bemoan how horrible their stitching looks and how boring and useless it is to have to do it while the boys are out doing fun boy stuff? Can't we have a girl who's spunky and yet also finds pleasure in creating beautiful pictures with thread? Or a boy who bemoans having to do swordplay and horse chores when he'd rather be working on a lovely piece of embroidery or knitting some warm, useful socks?

If there's a female character who actually *enjoys* "girl stuff," she's inevitably a secondary character, often portrayed as simpering, a tool, or a moron. :rolleyes:

--Q

Actually, I'm working on a piece where the "badass" female MC really doesn't want to be the tough, bloodthirsty badass anymore. She just wants to move on with her life, start a school, and spend her evenings stitching by the fire with her husband, who is a tailor who excels at creating beautiful things with thread. She *gasp* actually has traditionally "feminine" hobbies and wants emotional support from her husband (who isn't a jackass, by the way). I wonder how it's going to go over with the reading public, if I ever get it published...

Yeah, I did this mainly because I can't stand tough, grim-faced badass heroes OR heroines who are untouchable, not when they're played straight. All my 'badasses' are crazy or incompetent or make mistakes constantly or are basically not really badass at all.

I have also been annoyed when the "smart, tough, strong" female MC displays absolutely no judgement when it comes to guys. Apparently, being a "strong" woman means boinking every cute guy she sees, without even holding off long enough to see whether he's a jackass or not.

I also have realized that I don't really gel with what my husband calls "broken vase" stories--where every character is mentally or emotionally crippled or immature, and the entire novel consists of watching unlikeable people fumbling around and failing at connecting with others. Why do I want to read about these people, again?

[Etola]

Question for all you people harpooning first person present: Varying tenses for varying POVs? My hope is that this dreaded tense is less "annoying" when only used for one character.

Thinking about it, I'd find a book very jarring if it jumps between different tenses between chapters. @_@

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

[RadioactiveFox]

Hmm, aside from poor writing and the George Lucas syndrome of authors in series who don't know how to edit their own ideas....

I really dislike stories that feature battles/wars/incredibly sticky violent situations - in none of the main characters die of their wounds. This is just not realistic. And when it's done again and again it irritates the hell out of me.

[The Lonely One]

Too much suspension of disbelief.

Interesting. This is how I cope with my day to day life.

[freeman801]

I dislike when the bad guys are obviously the bad guys, and the good guys good. I hate when the author tells you this, or describes people like this, from the outset. It ruins the book because you usually know what is going to happen!

I picked up a new book from one of my favorite authors and that's all his characters were; good and bad, no in between, no questioning their paths, and no development.

[lucidzfl]

Orphaned farmboy goes on quest to save the world because he is the chosen one.

Seen it.

Do you think something like that could be deconstructed for a YA novel?

[lucidzfl]

- Chosing the macho man: I would rather the heroine falls for the soft, sensitive, not very adventurous bard who adores her rather than the dashing, confident, swords-man/pirate, just once? Please?

Then life would most certainly NOT imitate art.

[Collectonian]

Add me to the dislikers of first person. I know some folks love it, but for mer personally, I will generally not buy nor read any book or story written in first person. I think the only except to this so far has been Lucky Man, Michael J. Fox's autobiography which rocked. I don't think I've ever see a novel in present tense, but having had to write it in for Wikipedia plot summaries, I don't think I'd like it for a whole novel.

As a web developer and power computer user, I hate it when people mess up technological descriptions, confuse computer terminology, and misdescribe doing a web search or creating/updating a website. Much like with swords and guns, at least learn how its done before messing it up.

[Gedaechtnis]

- Prophecy: I'm tired of heroes who have to do something just because some oracle said they were "The One".
- if there are two strong women, they have to be rivals: come on! Can't two women admire each other?
- Heroes with only one parents: having two parents doesn't mean you can't be heroic
- Twins for no other purpose that "OMG! Twins is so cool!": you can very close to a regular sibling.
- That "feisty princess syndrome" mentionned above: it's cool when well done but I want a princess who likes her embroidery and wants loads of babies AND can kick ass... kinda like me ;)
- Chosing the macho man: I would rather the heroine falls for the soft, sensitive, not very adventurous bard who adores her rather than the dashing, confident, swords-man/pirate, just once? Please?
- MCs who describe themselves as plain and unattractive but are complaining about features generally considered attractive ("oh, my boobs are too big", "my hair is this boring shade of gold"...). Also, I would like a female MC that's genuinely very plain or *gasp* ugly and having people like her because she's a cool person first.
- Emo MCs
- Kids not getting along with their perfectly nice step-parent. If the story is about a kid coming to terms with a parent's death and the other's remarriage, okay, but in most cases, it is so not necessary.

Yes.

[Gedaechtnis]

Thinking about it, I'd find a book very jarring if it jumps between different tenses between chapters. @_@

But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.


Edenborn. Nick Sagan. It is beautiful.

[kaitie]

Okay, I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier so I might be repeating myself, but someone mentioned something similar above: I hate death fake-outs. Okay, one is fine. I'll give a book one, and most of the time be saying, "please don't be dead!" if I really care about the character, but I read one series by a very well-known fantasy author and I think every single character "died" then came back for some reason or another. Rings that bring characters back to life should just not exist. Period. I actually am very wary of reading any other books by the guy because it got so ridiculous.

[StephenP]

It's probably been mentioned (I'd hope so), but the above post prompted me to add it to my own list:

Chapters that end on false cliffhangers.

And then I heard my window break, and a voice said "You're DEAD!"

Chapter 2

Phew. Thank goodness the glass breaking was just the neighbor's wind chimes, and the voice was only my cat making a weird meow. She does that sometimes when she's hungry, and it sounds like yooouuu'ree deeaaaad meeeoooww.

[Gedaechtnis]

How about the heroine falling for the sweet, courageous, sensible woman in the cast.

That...would be beautiful.

[MGraybosch]

How about the heroine falling for the sweet, courageous, sensible woman in the cast.

I'll be in my bunk.

[Cyia]

- Chosing the macho man: I would rather the heroine falls for the soft, sensitive, not very adventurous bard who adores her rather than the dashing, confident, swords-man/pirate, just once? Please?


Then she and the secondary (spunky) female character would become mortal enemies because that's the 2nd string's boy toy.

Of course, then you'd have a sequel.

[Ervin]

Most of the characters don't believe in me. Thus it is easy to follow them without being noticed.

I get it! They're atheists!

[Thump]

Then she and the secondary (spunky) female character would become mortal enemies because that's the 2nd string's boy toy.

Of course, then you'd have a sequel.

Or they might just share him. That would be unusual. :D

Or the second gal will be sensible (for a change) and realize that what heroine and boy toy have is beautiful and she can find herself someone else. See my previous point about how I hate it that strong female chars always have to end up being rivals and never friends or at least respect each other as fellow kickass chicks :)

[gonovelgo]

I'll go and throw my pet-peeve in here too:

Really super-sparse prose. There seems to be a lot of this going on in YA novels, particular those written in the first person. I can see how having a very brief, sparse style can help create a great sense of immediacy, but it's all too easy to go overboard with it and end up with something like this:

"I saw the car coming towards me. It was going fast. No time to get out of the way. Had to jump."

See? You can tell somebody (ie me being bad on purpose) thought it would be immersive or 'direct' or whatever, but instead it's as dry as a legal footnote. I've come across books with entire scenes and chapters written like this, and it's an immediate turn-off for me.

[Axler]

Characters in thrillers with After School Special type problems grafted onto them--their parents suffer from incontinence, their older brother is an alcoholic gay rodeo clown, their girlfriend/wife/ex-wife is a recovering meth addict...

[Gedaechtnis]

their older brother is an alcoholic gay rodeo clown,

I may actually read that, if only for the (hopefully) copious amounts of accidental humour.

[theantisplice]

I'm really sick of super-perfect, Mary-Sue characters. No, giving your MC a "hot temper" and "sharp tongue" does not qualify as making them flawed, complex and realistic, especially if they're unnaturally beautiful with glowing purple eyes, an angelic singing voice and mastery of five forms of martial arts.

[gonovelgo]

I'm really sick of super-perfect, Mary-Sue characters. No, giving your MC a "hot temper" and "sharp tongue" does not qualify as making them flawed, complex and realistic, especially if they're unnaturally beautiful with glowing purple eyes, an angelic singing voice and mastery of five forms of martial arts.

Unfortunately, 'sharp tongue' and 'hot temper' are usually code-phrases for 'gets all the best lines in the book'. Seeing a character described as 'fiery' is usually enough to put me off now.

[Rambutanious]

I hate authors who attempt to be humorous in making a parody of a well-adored book, such as Barry Trotter and The Philosopher's Scone. I demanded my money back after ready the first ten ill humored pages.

Though, I must admit I don't find the Harry Potter series to be extremely appetising.

[SarahMacManus]

- Chosing the macho man: I would rather the heroine falls for the soft, sensitive, not very adventurous bard who adores her rather than the dashing, confident, swords-man/pirate, just once? Please?


I'm working on it, I'm working on it...

I'm also tired of the kick-ass female protagonist. I want one that acts like a real human being for once. You know, gets frightened when threatened. To me, bravery is more about overcoming fear than having no fear. That's just a complete lack of survival instincts.

I'm tired of books that pile up bizarre and unlikely characteristics and situations just to be "different". It's one thing to be a vampire hunter, but to also be a shape-shifter and a professional dominatrix? With a multimillion dollar recording contract? While moonlighting for the CIA? Sometimes it just gets silly.

Usually I read literary fiction and quite honestly, I'm tired of literary fiction with no plot whatsoever. (No examples, right?)

Lack of ambiguity. I'm tired of reading about protagonists that do the right thing, despite the personal cost, without even a blip on their self-interest radar. And vice-versa. I want to see that inner conflict.

Too much ambiguity. Often found in literary work. PLEASE - draw some conclusions. Help a sister out here and tell me what has happened and why it's important. Yes, you've SHOWN me, but you see, dear author, my perspective might be different. I may not feel that such an event would lead to such a personal epiphany. Hit your themes just a bit harder. I want to work at it, but I don't want to work at it that hard.

I'm actually sort of tired of stereotypes in general. Who says the overweight secretary HAS to be kind OR socially inept? Who says the pretty girl has to be either an evil bitch or a little flower? Why can't the overweight secretary be the awesomest with the best parties, the wild lifestyle and guys falling over themselves to impress her (and a bitch as well). I've seen this happen in the real world. Maybe the sweet delicate heroine is practical and tough as nails and knows exactly how to pull a stuck cow out of a mud sinkhole or build a freedom fighter bomb out of guano and peppermint gum. And who says the sensitive bard has to be a pushover? I've seen a few of them come to the end of their patience and lay a bully out flat with a calloused fist.

I guess I'm tired of the same old formulas. I mean, I know people have traditions for a reason; they're easy to identify with, they lend a sense of familiarity, they reinforce everything we're told is true and important.

But can't we all just take it a little further?

And yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the agents want an identifiable hook that will grab the readers in the well-worn places where they live - but can't we push a few envelopes, shift a few paradigms? Just a little?

[Etola]

You know, reading this thread is making me more confident with one of my current WIPs, which is trying to subvert or out-and-out avoid a lot of the most common cliches. Yes, the strong females get along and kick butt together, yes the main character ends up with the sweet and sensitive guy, etc. etc.

Okay, I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier so I might be repeating myself, but someone mentioned something similar above: I hate death fake-outs. Okay, one is fine. I'll give a book one, and most of the time be saying, "please don't be dead!" if I really care about the character, but I read one series by a very well-known fantasy author and I think every single character "died" then came back for some reason or another. Rings that bring characters back to life should just not exist. Period. I actually am very wary of reading any other books by the guy because it got so ridiculous.

I got really tired of fake-out deaths. After it happening too many times, I realized that character deaths had lost all meaning and emotional punch, and that sucks for me as a reader. I even considered giving one of my characters a fake-out death, and then thought, "Wait, he dies a hero and his death is incredibly meaningful. Why take that away from him, or from the readers?"

[Neversage]

I agree on the fake deaths. It's gotten bad enough that now, whenever some dude dies, I keep thinking of ways that he will come back, not how great an end it was for him, or even how great a character he was.

[xcomplex]

Fake deaths do sort of suck and wow I got a lot of replies to this thread :D

[Southern Girl]

Mine, mine, mine!

This is a little thing, and it's been mentioned before I'm positive, but for pete's sake....

The adverbs.

What is the point??? Why does the author need to tell me the character "submissively" walked back to the house? Doesn't this person think I already came to this conclusion since the character is walking back?! Against his/her will?! Or, "she conservatively clucked her tongue". WTH? Or, "shakily laughed", "unsteadily stepped forward". Stab me in the eyes. Please.

Dialogue is fantastic. And it reveals so much more than a freaking adverb stuck after every other word in a sentence. I honestly think it's a conspiracy sometimes to fluff up word count. To make you think that thick book is full of fantastic tales, when it's just one adverb after another.

After reading two books in row with multiple adverb usage, I can't even remember now when it's appropriate to use them. If ever.

Sorry for the rant - carry on.

[RadioactiveFox]

Dialogue is fantastic. And it reveals so much more than a freaking adverb stuck after every other word in a sentence. I honestly think it's a conspiracy sometimes to fluff up word count. To make you think that thick book is full of fantastic tales, when it's just one adverb after another.



Can't begin to say how much I agree with this. It's something I struggled with as a young writer - now whenever I read the things I wrote as a teenager I want to smack myself in the forehead.

Of course.... Whenever I do NaNoWriMo the adverb fairy seems to think it's her job to hover around my keyboard.

[TC Beacham]

It bugs me when a writer gets stuck on a word, so that it appears countless times throughout the manuscript. I recall listening to a mystery on tape while driving and every time the word "gazed" came up I cringed. Everybody gazed in this book, constantly!

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

Orphaned farmboy goes on quest to save the world because he is the chosen one.

Seen it.

I'll write my autobiography if I darn well want to.

[Neversage]

It bugs me when a writer gets stuck on a word, so that it appears countless times throughout the manuscript. I recall listening to a mystery on tape while driving and every time the word "gazed" came up I cringed. Everybody gazed in this book, constantly!

I cannot stress this enough. It's okay to re-use a word if it is the best word. But no word is that good.

[Ardent Kat]

Plus, all these 'strong women' have tricked up names. Like Mace. or Steele.

You realize this has been done for AGES with male characters, too, right? I agree a two-dimensional"tough character" is annoying, but no reason to single out the ladies while overlooking the cardboard males. It's just as obnoxious when it's an unlovable blowhard male with stupid names like these. (People just don't seem to notice as often)

If their names aren't tricked up, it's because the author has named his heroine, 'Cat'
gimme a break!

Especially if her name is Kate, Katie, Cat, Kat, Cait or Caitlyn. Make it stop!



What's with all the Kat-hatin'? Kats kick ass. It's a scientific fact.

[sohalt]

You realize this has been done for AGES with male characters, too, right? I agree a two-dimensional"tough character" is annoying, but no reason to single out the ladies while overlooking the cardboard males. It's just as obnoxious when it's an unlovable blowhard male with stupid names like these. (People just don't seem to notice as often)

What's with all the Kat-hatin'? Kats kick ass. It's a scientific fact.

Amen.

[gonovelgo]

You realize this has been done for AGES with male characters, too, right? I agree a two-dimensional"tough character" is annoying, but no reason to single out the ladies while overlooking the cardboard males. It's just as obnoxious when it's an unlovable blowhard male with stupid names like these. (People just don't seem to notice as often.

Please, go and tell this to the videogame industry, preferably with a mallet to the forehead. I can't count the number of games where the male 'characters' have personalities that boil down to 'tough, witty (supposedly), badass, can kill two hundred people in an evening without batting an eyelid'. Bleh.

I actually can't play games with terrible writing any more - which means I can't play most games any more :(

[ChristineR]

Any introduction of ESP or other supernatural agent in a book that's not clearly labeled as fantasy.

Women who scorn a man in the beginning but eventually realize that he's perfect for her and do a total about face three-quarters of the way through the book. This is especially annoying when it's a guy who you really wouldn't think she'd be interested in, i.e. she obviously spends an hour each morning doing her hair and makeup, and he's a complete slob, or she's a liberal hippie type and he's a mouthy conservative. This one is especially prevalent in movies.

[gonovelgo]

Any introduction of ESP or other supernatural agent in a book that's not clearly labeled as fantasy.

Women who scorn a man in the beginning but eventually realize that he's perfect for her and do a total about face three-quarters of the way through the book. This is especially annoying when it's a guy who you really wouldn't think she'd be interested in, i.e. she obviously spends an hour each morning doing her hair and makeup, and he's a complete slob, or she's a liberal hippie type and he's a mouthy conservative. This one is especially prevalent in movies.

I'll second that. Equally annoying (and related) is when you're happily reading a book and suddenly realize that two characters are, inexplicably, falling into each other's arms with little to no warning - possibly on the second time they've met. This is incredibly jarring even if you get the impression they're right for each other.

[Devil Ledbetter]

What's with all the Kat-hatin'? Kats kick ass. It's a scientific fact.Sporty, "kick-ass" female characters named Kate/Kat/Caitlyn et all have been done to the point of cliche in fiction. I try to avoid cliches in my writing, but if you can make them work for you, have at it.

[Bookewyrme]

How about a series of books that continue with no apparent end. I'm tired of hearing who's backstabbing what. Can we get a resolution please, or at least get to a possible climax?

QFT. Hate hate hate hate. Especially if said series is bogged down by unnecessary wordyness. Multiple stories/series in the same world? Fine. Series which just goes on forever and never resolves? Not okay!

Also, I hate stories that have no ending, but as in they just break off. I recently read a short story where the problem is set up, and they talk about it, and go through some hardships, but then the story ends without any resolution of the problem. I was absolutely furious, particularly since the premise seemed interesting.

[theantisplice]

Unresolved plot strands. If you introduce something, tie it up. I (almost) don't even care how. Just tie it up.

[kuwisdelu]

Unresolved plot strands. If you introduce something, tie it up. I (almost) don't even care how. Just tie it up.

Conversely, tying things up too neatly annoys me.

[defcon6000]

Yeah, I had to resurrect this, but I found another thing to be annoyed about (thank you Sarah Rees Brennan): Characters' one-liners that try to be witty and funny. I've heard of comic relief, but this is just a lame attempt at it. I know the author thinks it's funny for her character to comment in a sarcastic way, because we all know that's the only way to respond. Plus, there's so many other ways to incorporate humor in a story without relying on sarcasm from the characters.

[theantisplice]

Conversely, tying things up too neatly annoys me.

Well, it doesn't have to be tied in a pretty little bow; that would annoy me as well. I just mean that an author should finish what they start. I've read too many books that introduce various 'mysterious' or 'intriguing' characters or elements and then never do anything with them. They just kind of go away, and we're supposed to forget them.

[MGraybosch]

You realize this has been done for AGES with male characters, too, right? I agree a two-dimensional"tough character" is annoying, but no reason to single out the ladies while overlooking the cardboard males. It's just as obnoxious when it's an unlovable blowhard male with stupid names like these. (People just don't seem to notice as often)

Oh, you mean like this guy?

http://www.gogaminggiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Duke_Nukem_Forever.jpg