Repent! Repent! The end is nigh!

[Maxinquaye]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/susanhill/5575828/theres-bookshops-and-then.thtml

Whilst I do love the physical book, and will be the last one dragged out of my bookshop, with my nails firmly buried in the carpetry, I do not see the great danger of digitalisation.

The music industry went through it, moving from vinyl to cd's. The vinyl market is still pretty strong, and gives room for lots and lots of really wonderful music stores.

I can't help but feel that digitalisation is inevitable, and that we as writers must adapt to it, and learn from the mistakes that the music industry did, and then face the future from a much better position.

The end is not nigh. Digitalisation is not evil. It can broaden readership (when the ereaders get much cheaper). It will more difficult to find a readership whilst being a drop in the flood of text that will be produced, but at the same time it will allow us to sell more books.

What do you think?

[Wayne K]

I think I'll be dead before it happens.

[KTC]

From the article:

Perhaps the biggest concern for us all is the e-book. These have their place, just as audio books do but publishers are rushing like gadarene swine over the cliff to predict and even encourage the demise of the printed book. They want to replace real books with e-readers and downloads whereas they should be thinking of those as additional means of reading books which are useful in certain circumstances. But ordinary people who are passionate readers love the physical book. That is what they buy. The book is a perfect piece of intelligent design. Bookshops, especially the best of the independents, are a joy to visit and long may they be so.

Hear, hear. This discussion has been raging on AW since before I got here in two-o-five. I will never stop buying books. Never. I don't do the e-book thing or the bullshit Reader gimmick things and I almost never do the audio book thing. And the industry will never lose diehards like me. And there are MILLIONS of us. So fuck the Chicken Littles of the world. I mean, really.

[Rhys Cordelle]

So... the sky's not falling?

[KTC]

So... the sky's not falling?

No. It's on tethers both from above and below. It's very secure. It may even be books that hold it up.

[Wayne K]

If it's on tethers from above and below, they're erotica books holding us up.

That would put the world in SP's hands.

Yipe.

[Maxinquaye]

A little less emotional analysis:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/26/borders-closure-stores-amazon

And no, the sky is not falling - though they'd have you believe that.

[Lady Ice]

Physical books win out every time.

[Slushie]

I just could not look a screen for 300 pages; my eyes would bleed. I mean, the feel of paper, the smell, the physical act of turning a page...none of that can be replaced.

[Wayne K]

I like the new book smell.

[Slushie]

mmmm...new book. Yummy.

I wonder what a brandnew Kindle smells like? Plastic and liquid crystal?

[Maxinquaye]

Books will still be around, but I honestly think digitalisation will be good for writers.

1) Production costs will be reduced
2) Audience will be larger
3) Consumption of literary works would increase

That would mean:

Book length will cease to be so important - it will probably be the age when the novella start to shine, as a quick snack in the airport

If quality vetting can be preserved, then there will be more room to experiment with fiction.

Look how much more music is consumed compared to only twenty years ago. That could be true for fiction as well.

No, I refuse to be a luddite about this. :)

Digitalisation is good for writers.

I love books, but i could care less about the medium through which my stories was published, as long as there was a quality assurance so the bottom scrape of the slushpiles wasn't shoveled out together with my books.

[Slushie]

You Brits and your funny words..."luddite". pssh. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite)

[Rhoda Nightingale]

If/when I get myself published, it'll be to see my years of agonizing hard work put to PRINT, on a real live bookshelf, with a shiny cover. NOT for a clickable download link on Amazon.com. Screw that noise.

[stephenf]

Unlike most outdated technology,video tape,seventy-eight records etc.Books are independent of any other devices .So, as long as the books actually exist people will be able to read them.

However,the number of book shops in the UK has crashed.If you look on Amazon there are thousands of books for sale for not much more than the postage.The fact is, the number of books for sale is outstripping the demand.For the small book retailer,the future looks grim.

The down loadable book is a godsend for publisher and on-line retailers,as long as they can stop file sharing.I think there will be a big drop in the price of the book-readers and the paper book will no longer be produced for the mass market.

[kaitie]

I think I'll be dead before it happens.

Ditto this.

[Phaeal]

I don't have an e-reader yet -- I always wait a few generations on the new tech, to let others complain the early bugs away. I also like the price decline.

I will eventually get one as a research tool, and I imagine that once I get used to it, I'll start reading fiction on it, too. I'll also be likely to sample a wider range of fiction, since if I don't like a novel, I won't have a corpse to dispose of or an unfairly slaughtered tree to mourn.

But I'll still buy the books I love in physical form.

A combination of print runs, POD and ebook formats should satisfy everyone. Hold onto your sabots, people. ;)

[ChaosTitan]

E-book supporters: Paper books are done for!

Paper book supporters: E-books are a fad! Bah!

People who like both: To each his own.

E-books aren't going away, but for now, I think both mediums will find a way to co-exist, as they have done for years. Your average Joe still can't afford an e-reader, and a lot of people still won't sit at their computer long enough to read a book that way.

[Maxinquaye]

I don't think paper books are done for. I hope not. I'm not very emotionally attached to the medium, however, and recognize that my interest lie in interacting with the reader's brain when telling a story. If that is done by paper, an ereader, or a fifty-foot hittite cuneiform inscription stone in Iraq is quite beside the point for me.

I do think that digitalisation will be good for writers, and I'll stubbornly hold to that. :)

[Cyia]

This discussion has been going on on Nathan Bransford's blog for a week or so. From one of the threads there:

http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2009/11/economics-of-publishing.html

From Reuters: (I don't know how to make a link, but you can cut and paste.)

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS123534+19-Mar-2009+BW20090319

Barnes & Noble store sales were $4,525 million for the full year.

Barnes & Noble.com sales were $466 million forthe full year.

So... rougly 90% in store, and 10% online.

$4.5 billion vs. $466 million

$1 out of $10 is being spent on line, gift cards would be a big part of that, I'd imagine. Then there's the books only available at B&N .com, like POD books. There are large orders, like school required reading and manuals that are ordered online and delivered. Then there's the people who buy online and then go pick up their books at the store.

[colealpaugh]

Digitalisation is good for writers.


Maybe some. What drives many aspiring novelists is what also keeps them from being dissuaded by Nathan's blog post regarding a NYT bestseller earning $24k. It is the physical book, which can no more be replaced to that sort of artist than a poster print would replace a painting.

[Cyia]

"bestseller" is also subjective.

There's no baseline for that distinction. There are books that earn out (and would thus create royalties) and never hit that list.

[DrZoidberg]

IMHO, this can only be a good thing. As always new technology makes the world a better place. Luddites always fear change. Let's do our best to ignore them.

[Rarri]

E-books have their place, but i think too many people like books without batteries. Plus, it isn't the same problem as music; however you listen to music (LP, cassette or CD), you need power (batteries, mains etc), books don't need a power source in order to be enjoyed and they're already portable.

But now, all i want to do is find my copy of Chicken Licken!

[a_sharp]

My daughter is taking an online finance curriculum from U. of Phoenix and uses a Kindle and loves it, especially for notation and quotation during homework assignments. For her purpose the e-reader is a time-saving convenience. Attempts to apply the same to fiction will attract a certain market segment, but I doubt they'll replace paper, at least in their present state.

Imagine a virtual paper invention combining both, with virtual pages having the look and feel of real paper, complete with virtual cover and binding...hm-m-m.

[RG570]

I don't see how writers will have to "adapt."

You write. If it's good, people read it.

I'm thinking that when people say "adapt" in this context, they mean "keep writing but accept next to nothing for it because dude, it's like, technology and things change, man."

[Mara]

I don't think print books are going away anytime soon. E-readers will probably just expand the market a bit, rather than transform it. (But I have nothing beyond anecdote to back that opinion up.)

On the other hand, I could certainly see small bookstores switch entirely to online sales (which are not the same thing as e-books; they're usually physical books that you order with a credit card online and have shipped to yourself.) When you can sell over Amazon from your own house, it doesn't always make sense to rent a building and hire people to work the register. (The big chains probably won't go away, though.)

[AdamH]

You can still find record stores that sell vinyl records as well as CDs. There'll alway be book stores selling paper books.

Personally, I love holding the weight of an actual book and can't focus reading anything longer than a Bill Simmons article online.

My wife, on the other hand, has downloaded an entire library of classics on to her ipod. Enough stuff to fill a large bookcase in the palm of her own hand. She loves it because it only weighs ounces and she can read it like a regular book. She still loves paper copies.

Also, the only way I can think we as writers would need to adapt would be to write shorter scenes and chapters to accomodate the waning attention span of people on their handhelds. Not exactly shortened to Twitter level but the long flowing prose of Dickens or Dostoyevsky may be a thing of the past (if it isn't already).

...unless it's really really good...

...or full of vampires and boy wizards...

...or your name starts with Stephen and ends with King.

[bearilou]

...or your name starts with Stephen and ends with King.

:ROFL:

[scarletpeaches]

What, right nigh?

[Libbie]

I think digitization has a long way to go before it can compare to the sensory experience of reading a physical book, but I'm sure at some point it'll get there. Music is a sound-based experienced, but book-reading relies on the visual words on the page, the heft of the book, the texture of its cover and pages, even the smell of the paper and ink, and the sound of the turning pages.

I don't think it will happen overnight, but some day digital books will be something that can compete with physical books.

I can tell you for sure: It won't happen until we can figure out a way to make children's books into a satisfying digital form. With such reliance on illustrations and tactile experiences, kids' books will stick around in printed form for a really long time. And only when we've found a way to turn them into successful files will we be able to get everybody to go along with the rest of bookdom being digitized.

[Libbie]

Oh, and we'll need to find a better way of preventing piracy. Maybe with book sellers and music sellers working in tandem we can finally stop piracy and protect artists' rights. Maybe.

I know a certain writer who shall remain nameless, and her book was leaked to a few piracy sites (by a reviewer, evidently) before she'd even seen the final galley. That kind of thing just isn't any good for us.

[Mara]

I know a certain writer who shall remain nameless, and her book was leaked to a few piracy sites (by a reviewer, evidently) before she'd even seen the final galley. That kind of thing just isn't any good for us.

Wow. That really sucks. Did she sue?

Recently, Wizards of the Coast published an RPG supplement that was sold in hardcopy and PDF forms. A few people bought PDFs and then shared them on 4chan and bittorrent sites. But they were too dumb to remove the watermarking, so Wizards identified them and sued all of them. So watermarking can help, sorta.

[colealpaugh]

I think digitization has a long way to go before it can compare to the sensory experience of reading a physical book, but I'm sure at some point it'll get there. Music is a sound-based experienced, but book-reading relies on the visual words on the page, the heft of the book, the texture of its cover and pages, even the smell of the paper and ink, and the sound of the turning pages.



Totally this.

I suppose I take it to the extreme, as well. A book is a piece of art in itself to me. I'd just never consider selling an MS for an e-book. While I wouldn't self-publish, I'd rather sell 10 copies of a printed book over having a million e-readers. Screw fame and huge readership. I'd rather connect with readers the way I do when I share a book with my daughter at bedtime.

Well, I don't really want to cuddle people who buy my book...

To each his own.

[Regan Leigh]

I suppose I take it to the extreme, as well. A book is a piece of art in itself to me. I'd just never consider selling an MS for an e-book. While I wouldn't self-publish, I'd rather sell 10 copies of a printed book over having a million e-readers. Screw fame and huge readership. I'd rather connect with readers the way I do when I share a book with my daughter at bedtime.


Ditto. :)

I very much agree with the art aspects of books.

Of course, I'm also one of the dorks that gets excited when I leave a book store with a stack of new books. I'll read books on my iPhone sometimes, but that's for convenience when stuck without an actual book. I'd prefer the book in my hands. Can't beat it.

[Maxinquaye]

I suppose I take it to the extreme, as well. A book is a piece of art in itself to me. I'd just never consider selling an MS for an e-book. While I wouldn't self-publish, I'd rather sell 10 copies of a printed book over having a million e-readers. Screw fame and huge readership. I'd rather connect with readers the way I do when I share a book with my daughter at bedtime.

Well, I don't really want to cuddle people who buy my book...

To each his own.

For me, my art is when my "world" comes alive in people's head. As I said, I don't really care how that happens. It's when someone loses sense of time and place and lives in my story for a while that art happens.

The medium's not important in that. If that someone is bent of a kind or an actual book isn't that important.

Though I qualify it as before with the fact that i love books too.

[scarletpeaches]

You do realise e-publishers usually go to print after a short while?

As in...the book I've just finished reading was an eBook for two months before it went to print?

[Cliff Face]

I'm not entirely opposed to the premise of ebooks as a writer. While I do prefer to read physical books, I'm sure there will come a day when the screen's don't hurt our eyes and when you can just have one "book" and load any story you want into it.

The ultimate for me would be a mutable type of solid, probably controlled by something we haven't conceived of yet (perhaps to do with string theory, which is still largely unexplored) - anyway, if you could have an e-book that had lifelike pages, and when you loaded the file it changed the cover AND changed how many pages the gel (or whatever) of the middle was comprised of... well, that would be awesome. The one book library.

So if that ever happened I'd be right on board.

But one thing that bothers me about ebooks is that I'm probably going to get ripped off and won't be able to earn a living as a writer that way, and that there will be less incentive to not publish crap... Some really good books would slip through the cracks, no matter how many "best" lists you could access.

A standard of publishing (the honour system) is needed, at least for the big shot companies. But as for the money question, well the solution there is to get rid of money. I mean, if you could create an ebook such as what I described above, then you'd be into alchemy territory, so being able to create as much of whatever as you wanted shouldn't be a problem. If there's plenty to go around, who needs money, especially as the existence of money necessitates poverty in regional areas around the world.

But for all this to happen, I think I'd be dead before I saw it. So no ebooks for me. :)

[MumblingSage]

The one thing I wonder about when it comes to digitalization--waht about libraries?

I mean, you can't very well stock the public library with ebooks.

[Aschenbach]

I can tell you for sure: It won't happen until we can figure out a way to make children's books into a satisfying digital form.

In my experience children graduate from cardboard kiddie books to nintendo DSs in an instant, even before they have properly learned to read.

Children's literature has already become obsolete. Why read Roald Dahl when you can watch the movies in high-def bluray and have an interactive experience on one of the many video game platforms?

I do think the end is nigh, but only if the publishing industry is as naive as the music industry has been re digitalisation.

Firstly; e-readers will be like i-pods. If you have an ipod and a pc with internet access you need never spend a penny on music again for as long as you live. In the next few years e-readers will become more popular, probably given as gifts by well-meaning relatives to younger people who like gadgets. Jackpot for them! They can download books for free, just like they do all their music!

Musicians can still earn a living by doing tours and selling associated merchandise. Authors don't have the same alternative revenue streams. If all new books are going to be made available as downloads it only takes one person to buy the download and fileshare it then millions of people have access to it free of charge.

If e-books don't have some heavy encryption then they might as well be given away for nothing. You would hope the publishing industry are aware of this, and not charging headlong into the false bonanza of e-sales, because it is "the cutting edge".

But the music industry cut its own throat pretty effectively, so who knows?

[KTC]

i think the world will explode. and the books will be rendered into confetti. and it will be so splendidly festive we'll all scream aves to the heavens. then, when all is said and done, we'll need more books.

you can't make festive confetti with a fucking e-book.

[scarletpeaches]

i think the world will explode. and the books will be rendered into confetti. and it will be so splendidly festive we'll all scream aves to the heavens. then, when all is said and done, we'll need more books.

you can't make festive confetti with a fucking e-book.No but you can make fucking e-fetti, dork-knob.

[KTC]

No but you can make fucking e-fetti, dork-knob.

great. you tryna get us sent to the trainwreck?

[Jerry B. Flory]

Amazon does the same thing to D/Led e-books that they and Wal-mart and I-tunes does to music: they can erase it off your Kindle and if you want it back you have to buy it again.
That won't sit well with collectors, which constitutes the majority of people on this site.
All kinds of people collect all kinds of books, from venerable classics to thousands of paperbacks.
Book collections are often part of the furniture. Kindles might be handy for travel or whatnot, but there are too many things a Kindle is not.

[scarletpeaches]

great. you tryna get us sent to the trainwreck?Uh...yeah. Sorry. I saw your post and assumed we were in OP.

Whoops.

[Aschenbach]

Books will still be around, but I honestly think digitalisation will be good for writers.

1) Production costs will be reduced
2) Audience will be larger
3) Consumption of literary works would increase


1) True.
2) Potential audience would be.
Actual audience not so much.
A book would just be a tiny droplet in the online ocean, why would it demand to be read more than the other billions of sites and downloads out there?
You need physical books, bookshops, reviews, that whole cumbersome establishment, just to get a book noticed.
3) I don't agree. Digitalisation tends to promote a short attention span. The internet is not conducive to reading a 400+ page novel, even 3 pages is a stretch if it doesn't have embedded media & jingles & junk.

And finally; how do you expect to get paid for publishing work on the web? I apologise if that materialism makes me sound vulgar, but I have to keep roof on head and put food in kid's mouths...

[colealpaugh]

You do realise e-publishers usually go to print after a short while?

As in...the book I've just finished reading was an eBook for two months before it went to print?

I'm not against e-book and audio-book versions. I'm referring to having zero interest in an e-publisher where the primary product is an e-platform and a knock-off print version is "also available". This is what I want for my MS's and have no opinion as to what anyone else on the planet wants for their stories.

My intention would be to sign and sell as many books as possible, but couldn't give a damn about e-versions, just as I never cared what news stories I wrote were carried online.

I wouldn't consider Carina Press -- If I wrote romance -- for example. Perhaps I'm missing something and those e-books will "usually" be marketed in paper...

[colealpaugh]

The one thing I wonder about when it comes to digitalization--waht about libraries?

I mean, you can't very well stock the public library with ebooks.

My wife is a library director in a rural area. The issue isn't stocking libraries with ebooks, but stocking the patrons with Kindles and such. Ten years from now, 5% of her patrons might use them. She serves an area of maybe 20k patrons and offers free download classes that get four little old ladies who bring their knitting.

I bring the tunes.

[Cyia]

Not sure where people get the idea that production costs will shrink - they'll just change.

Most books (e-readers) apparently don't "Sell" outright - it's a lease, so there's a matter of data storage and maintenance because each individual's list is maintained off-site. Once the technology improves, there's going to be added content (most likely interactive) that's going to cost for development as well as maintenance.

The most involved "stories" will cost more because more goes into them and there will be more flash.

Since LOTR as an example is popular, I'll use that:

Interactive maps.
Movie clips.
Character dossiers.
Licensed content surrounding the characters' histories.
Family trees.
Elvish translators.
Etc.

Things like that won't be cheap.

[colealpaugh]

In my experience children graduate from cardboard kiddie books to nintendo DSs in an instant, even before they have properly learned to read.

Children's literature has already become obsolete. Why read Roald Dahl when you can watch the movies in high-def bluray and have an interactive experience on one of the many video game platforms?



IDK, but my experience is different. In communities across our state (PA), an amazing number of households don't have home computers, let alone HDTV and DS. It isn't all poverty, as a good deal of it is a quality of life decision.

But obsolete? Not in these parts. And not 'til they pry the last VHS tape out of our cold, dead hands.

[Slushie]

Since LOTR as an example is popular, I'll use that:

Interactive maps.
Movie clips.
Character dossiers.
Licensed content surrounding the characters' histories.
Family trees.
Elvish translators.
Etc.

Things like that won't be cheap.

Noooooo! Not the interactive novel! We're gonna end up technologizing our attention spans into extinction.

[DrZoidberg]

E-books have their place, but i think too many people like books without batteries. Plus, it isn't the same problem as music; however you listen to music (LP, cassette or CD), you need power (batteries, mains etc), books don't need a power source in order to be enjoyed and they're already portable.

But now, all i want to do is find my copy of Chicken Licken!

I think you may be worrying in vain. Electronic paper (ie e-book readers) change their surface physically. They only use batteries when you change page. If you stay on the same page, you'll never need to load them. These early first generation readers, like the Sony 505 or Kindle need reloading after 30 000 page turns. I don't know about you, but I could probably get by with loading it once a year.... if even that. With ordinary use, you'll only load the battery when you copy a new book to it, which for me means that I never have to bother with loading the battery. I only need to worry about finding new stuff to read :)

[gothicangel]

If you gave me a choice between an instantly downloadable ebook, or a printed edition that takes several days to get delivered as it fights its way through the UK's strike ridden postal service; I'll chose the ebook everytime.

I write because I love words and want to write stories readers love. I don't really care whether it's read on physical paper or in e-ink. All I'm bothered about is that they are read [and enjoyed!]

I actually think that e-readers pose an opportunity to democratise the publishing industry.

[bearilou]

I actually think that e-readers pose an opportunity to democratise the publishing industry.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'democratise'. :)

[Maxinquaye]

I write because I love words and want to write stories readers love. I don't really care whether it's read on physical paper or in e-ink. All I'm bothered about is that they are read [and enjoyed!]

This. ^^

[Lady Ice]

E-books won't render the physical ones obsolete. You can't annotate an e-book; can't get out-of-print books; can't take an e-book into an English exam; the screen does your eyes in; the players cost loads; attention span dies out; can't borrow e-books from library; can't lend your book to friends...just no.

Physical books may be expensive but they're part of the reading experience, not tapping away at the screen of your expensive gadget like a yuppie.

[Cyia]

E-books won't render the physical ones obsolete. You can't annotate an e-book;

Yes you can. You can highlight and type in margin notes.

can't get out-of-print books;

Yes you can. There's a free library of many classic titles from most major e-readers.

can't take an e-book into an English exam;

Depends on the school.

the screen does your eyes in;

It's not a conventional back-lit screen. Most of them use e-ink, which looks like paper pages.

the players cost loads;
This is true at least for now.

attention span dies out;
Why?

can't borrow e-books from library;

Yes you can. The librarians just don't advertise them. In fact NYC library on-line has a TON.

can't lend your book to friends.

Get a nook. You can lend a book for 14 days at a time. It goes from your gizmo to a friends gizmo or computer.

[scarletpeaches]

eBook readers aren't that expensive.

Maybe my dream one - the iLiad - is, but I'll probably go for a Sony at some near point in the future.

[gothicangel]

About £200, I'll be buying one in the summer.

Which is a shame because I have a £30 off voucher right now.

[scarletpeaches]

Anyone got a Sony reader? How do they compare to others on the market?

I'm kinda hoping someone leaves me an iLiad in their will though...*drool*

[Cyia]

I've seen Sony readers in stores, but I'm not impressed.

[gothicangel]

My sister who is technology obsessed, loves them.

[Lady Ice]

It's not as if reading physical books is such a taxing task that a £300 machine is going to make life so much easier. Yes, you can carry a lot of 'books' around with you on the machine but you only really need one.

[scarletpeaches]

It's not as if using a desktop is such a taxing task that a £500 machine is going to make life so much easier. Yes, you can carry a lot of 'files' around with you on the laptop but you only really need one hard copy.

[scarletpeaches]

My point being, gadgets are just cool.

Plus, there's a chance one of the major book stores near me will be closing soon and it's the only one which sells erotica. There's a bookcase devoted to it, although the selection isn't perfect. If the shop closes, I'll only be able to find the genre online. As has been mentioned, I can download in seconds, as opposed to ordering a book in a shop and waiting for it to come in, then going to pick it up...

[Cyia]

I think it'll be great for universities. All of the required texts in one unit where you can still take notes and highlight. Finding extra information, for the ones that are internet equipped, will be a plus, too.

[gothicangel]

Yeah, I find myself using more and more online journal and essays these days. JSTOR has become a necessity.

Mind you, OUP won't like it when us English lit students can download all the classics for free!

[Slushie]

Here's one person who will continue to read paper books no matter what technology says is cool or convenient.

[colealpaugh]

My point being, gadgets are just cool.



I know two people who collect lightsabers who aren't all that cool. Matter of opinion, of course.

[EclipsesMuse]

I don't understand the fear of digital books causing a shorter attention span. Except for hardcore readers, many people don't read 300-400 pages in one sitting anyway. Also, how many hours a day do you sit in front of a computer (I know you have one, you reading this post) and write, read blogs, or chat? Do you're eyes hurt after that?

Yes, children have traded board games for video games; CDs for iPods. This is called progress and it's bound to happen. With no progress we'd still be writing stories by hand.CDs and board games haven't become extinct yet, and e-books have a long way before they will replace books.

I agree that piracy would be cause for concern; however, there should be some way to minimize the issue. If any programmers, coders, or developers could write an encryption program, I think Kindle or one of the others would be interested.

A novel is the words, characters and story, not the paper and pretty cover. We should be more concerned with our stories being read; not about the format they come in.

[MumblingSage]

My wife is a library director in a rural area. The issue isn't stocking libraries with ebooks, but stocking the patrons with Kindles and such. Ten years from now, 5% of her patrons might use them. She serves an area of maybe 20k patrons and offers free download classes that get four little old ladies who bring their knitting.

I bring the tunes.

So they lend out Kindles with downloaded books instead? Hmm...yeah, first the librarians at my library will need to learn how to handle Kindles. The laptops we check out are quite beyond them at the moment.

[colealpaugh]

So they lend out Kindles with downloaded books instead? Hmm...yeah, first the librarians at my library will need to learn how to handle Kindles. The laptops we check out are quite beyond them at the moment.

Lend out Kindles? The dvd's she loans come back looking like people played Frisbee with them -- and not just the kid titles.

As I understand it, Kindles are attached directly to a credit card, not to mention the typical rural library in PA is trying to keep ink in the copier, let alone afford Kindles for the masses.

Librarians are stupid where you live? They are brilliant and beautiful where I come from...they are former bio-chemists who would much rather be surrounded by books and children.

[Delhomeboy]

I don't understand the fear of digital books causing a shorter attention span. Except for hardcore readers, many people don't read 300-400 pages in one sitting anyway. Also, how many hours a day do you sit in front of a computer (I know you have one, you reading this post) and write, read blogs, or chat? Do you're eyes hurt after that?

Don't underestimate the power of the human exception. :D I can stay on a computer for, literally, five minutes before my head starts killing me, my eyes dry up and I feel like I've poured a gallon of sand in them.

Yes, children have traded board games for video games; CDs for iPods. This is called progress and it's bound to happen. With no progress we'd still be writing stories by hand.CDs and board games haven't become extinct yet, and e-books have a long way before they will replace books.


You say this like it's a bad thing. :)

[colealpaugh]

A novel is the words, characters and story, not the paper and pretty cover. We should be more concerned with our stories being read; not about the format they come in.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But not mine.

Do you know what the Mona Lisa smells like? Do you know what a Steinway sounding board feels like during Brahm's Intermezzi? And it's perfectly fine if you don't care. But some people care about the heft and the shadows, and the smell of the book. To some people it is artwork in its entirety.

Just sayin'.

[Maxinquaye]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But not mine.

Do you know what the Mona Lisa smells like? Do you know what a Steinway sounding board feels like during Brahm's Intermezzi? And it's perfectly fine if you don't care. But some people care about the heft and the shadows, and the smell of the book. To some people it is artwork in its entirety.

Just sayin'.

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? It is a really small painting and it sits behind safety glass, and you never get to smell it because when you visit the Louvre, there are about fifty japanese tourists in front of you taking pictures of it. You do tend to smell their perfume and cologne though.

There is a pianist living in a flat nearby. She practices sometimes, and she is very accomplished. I think she's going to do a concert or something because at this time she is playing a lot of Erik Satie.

I open my door sometime when she is playing, and close my eyes, and hear her interpretation of one of the Les Gnosiennes. I think it's the third gnosienne.

She has the perfect tempo for the piece, slow, a bid sad, but also ironic if music can be ironic. There's just a little hesitation there that hints at it. I can't explain it, but it doesn't matter.

Whether it is ironic or not is in my head, when i close my eyes, and listen to her play. I don't need to see her piano. I can hear her mind.

[colealpaugh]

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? It is a really small painting and it sits behind safety glass, and you never get to smell it because when you visit the Louvre, there are about fifty japanese tourists in front of you taking pictures of it. You do tend to smell their perfume and cologne though.



Ha, okay, well some of us were alive before her entombment.

[Regan Leigh]

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? It is a really small painting and it sits behind safety glass, and you never get to smell it because when you visit the Louvre, there are about fifty japanese tourists in front of you taking pictures of it. You do tend to smell their perfume and cologne though.

Um, I DID see it in the Louvre and it was wonderful. There was no group of "fifty japanese tourists", as you say. I find that offensive, btw.

Whether it is ironic or not is in my head, when i close my eyes, and listen to her play. I don't need to see her piano. I can hear her mind.

How is appreciating books as art anything like this? I LOVE music and do see it as an art. But music is normally auditory only, unless you play the instrument. Do I think I need to write a book to enjoy it? No. Do I prefer to see one I'm reading on actual pages? To enjoy the book as a whole? Yes. I've never done a book on tape for this reason. It isn't personal enough for me.



I think you're confusing this a bit. The argument about the art aspect is more closely related to artists that create their work in a computer program versus a live canvas... A musician that plays an instrument and records it versus using tracks of pre-recorded instrumentation.

If I go see a band live, I am not expecting to play an instrument myself. I am going to enjoy live music. Now, if that band has pre-recorded vocals?? That is THEIR choice on how they present their creation. But do I agree with their presentation? No. If I were the musician, I'd do it all live. (Despite the imperfections that would occur.) Would I stick around for the concert? Depends on the band...

That's a terrible analogy and I'm not saying that authors with e-books are equivalent to pre-recorded music!! I'm only trying to get across that I (and many others) DO find something special about reading an actual book. That only means we differ in opinion.

[Cyia]

Lend out Kindles? The dvd's she loans come back looking like people played Frisbee with them -- and not just the kid titles.

As I understand it, Kindles are attached directly to a credit card, not to mention the typical rural library in PA is trying to keep ink in the copier, let alone afford Kindles for the masses.


Yes. The Kindle itself is attached by wi-fi directly to an Amazon account, so whoever has the kindle in hand can max out the account.

They don't have to lend Kindles to lend e-books, though. Some of the major libraries let you download them from home (the download lasts for a few days), and some formats allow you to make your own copy to keep on the audio files. (you have to have a card, which makes me mad because I'd love a crack at NYC's inventory and I live in the middle of nowhere :cry:)

I'm one who likes the smell of books and bookstores and finds the turning of pages a sensory experience. I like to be able to flip through a book and skim, or know that if I start 3/4 way through, I'm about where I stopped or at my favorite place.... can't do that with an e-reader. I also like that I can spill a Dr. Pepper on my book or wrestle it out of the dog's mouth and it's still fully functional. No one can zap the words off my personal copy or decide I've read it (downloaded) too many times from my cache and not let me have it again.

As to the Mona Lisa -- it's funny, my cousin went to Paris last summer and was *shocked* when she saw it. She was expecting some huge canvas. :Shrug:

[Regan Leigh]

I'm doing multiple things at one time, so I hope that made sense cause I'm running out the door. :) I can clarify later if it didn't. :)

[Maxinquaye]

I think you're confusing this a bit. The argument about the art aspect is more closely related to artists that create their work in a computer program versus a live canvas... A musician that plays an instrument and records it versus using tracks of pre-recorded instrumentation.

If I go see a band live, I am not expecting to play an instrument myself. I am going to enjoy live music. Now, if that band has pre-recorded vocals?? That is THEIR choice on how they present their creation. But do I agree with their presentation? No. If I were the musician, I'd do it all live. (Despite the imperfections that would occur.) Would I stick around for the concert? Depends on the band...

That's a terrible analogy and I'm not saying that authors with e-books are equivalent to pre-recorded music!! I'm only trying to get across that I (and many others) DO find something special about reading an actual book. That only means we differ in opinion.

First, why on earth would that be offensive to you? I'm honestly curious.

Second, I've not made any statement regarding your feelings for books. You seem to be reacting to my feelings for stories though.

Looking back, I can not see any place I've disparaged that view. I've just put forward MY view that medium is not important to me.

[colealpaugh]

First, why on earth would that be offensive to you? I'm honestly curious.

Second, I've not made any statement regarding your feelings for books. You seem to be reacting to my feelings for stories though.

Looking back, I can not see any place I've disparaged that view. I've just put forward MY view that medium is not important to me.

No worries, Maxin, but the tourist/cologne things was a bit politically-incorrect. As a very short, Japenese shutter-bug who loves his scents, I may be forced to slap you senseless at the next Star Trek convention. You've been warned.

[Regan Leigh]

First, why on earth would that be offensive to you? I'm honestly curious.

That was a pretty blatant stereotype and I don't think it needed to be included for your point.

Second, I've not made any statement regarding your feelings for books. You seem to be reacting to my feelings for stories though.

I'm trying to point out the difference between something that feels organic vs. electronic. I wasn't seeing how you were relating listening to piano vs. seeing the actual piano to e-books vs. physical books.


I'm trying to give voice to the people that DO feel that the medium is important. But there is room for both. That's why the options are there.

REALLY have to leave now! :)

[EclipsesMuse]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But not mine.

Fogive me. I am more concerned about the story than what I'm reading it on. Don't get me wrong, I love reading books too, but I am less concerned about the format.

[colealpaugh]

REALLY have to leave now! :)

Beautiful women with short tempers rule. It's why I send Toothpaste nasty pm's all day long.

[Maxinquaye]

I'm trying to give voice to the people that DO feel that the medium is important. But there is room for both. That's why the options are there.

REALLY have to leave now! :)

Is there some kind of stereotype that japanese tourists to the Louvre tend to go in charter groups? I've been to the Louvre three times to see the Mona Lisa, and on two occasions there were large japanese tourist groups in front of me.

I didn't know that there was some sort of problem with japanese, charter travel, or seeing something together with your fellow nationals that required sensitivity to refrain from mentioning this fact from my own experience.

[gothicangel]

You should try London, they hunt in packs . . .

Then there are the Braveheart tourists that insist on photographing my home [with no historical importance whatsoever!]

[Cyia]

Is there some kind of stereotype that japanese tourists to the Louvre tend to go in charter groups?

The ultimate Japanese stereotype is the short man with big glasses and a camera strap grafted to his neck in the middle of a large group of similarly attired tourists.

[gothicangel]

Let's not forget how stereotypes are formed.

This thread seems to be descending into PC madness.

[colealpaugh]

Is there some kind of stereotype that japanese tourists to the Louvre tend to go in charter groups? I've been to the Louvre three times to see the Mona Lisa, and on two occasions there were large japanese tourist groups in front of me.

I didn't know that there was some sort of problem with japanese, charter travel, or seeing something together with your fellow nationals that required sensitivity to refrain from mentioning this fact from my own experience.

It's no big deal, but the way it was first phrased was indeed derogatory stereotyping, at least as viewed by American culture. I don't care, nor am I offended. But I would point it out to my kid -- or a friend -- so she might avoid an embarrassing moment.

I'd prefer she also didn't say she went to Springfield to check out the Basketball Hall of Fame, but here were a bunch of black people with bushy hair she couldn't see over.

Or to an Indian opera, but there were too many curry smelling people.

I'm no expert in this, just middle-class white parent who picks the hills he wants to die on. And stuff this isn't it.

[kuwisdelu]

The music industry went through it, moving from vinyl to cd's. The vinyl market is still pretty strong, and gives room for lots and lots of really wonderful music stores.

You'll have to pry my vinyl collection from my cold, dead fingers before I give them up.

I'll keep to my physical books, too.

[Slushie]

I have absolutely zero inside numbers to back this up, but I'd think if publishers went completely to ebook format then the overhead would decrease; that's what technological advancement does. They'd have to pay for bandwidth, but they wouldn't have to pay for paper, ink, bindings, etc. So this could mean either
a)they charge the same for the ebooks that they did for normal books, increasing the profit margin; the author might get a larger slice of the pie
--or--
b)they charge less for the ebooks because their overhead is less and the author gets less money (even though the percentage remains)



Then there's the whole piracy issue. Insanity is repeating the same action but expecting a different result. The music industry is wrasslin' with file sharing; I don't see why this issue wouldn't affect the publishing industry if they went to an all ebook format. Sure, they could set up codes and watermarks to prevent file sharing (like iTunes does with DRM), but I guarantee you there would be someone out there who would crack it and put it on that Pirate Bay website. Maybe that comes across as paranoid, but I bet the RIAA thought file sharing was Chicken Little, too.



As is, ebooks are only a small fraction of all book sales and this scenario is far from becoming reality any time soon. Still, I just hope the industry proceeds with caution on this. I'm not convinced the rewards (convenience, and lower production costs) outweigh the risks (lost revenue to piracy, and a floodgate of slush).

[Maxinquaye]

It's no big deal, but the way it was first phrased was indeed derogatory stereotyping, at least as viewed by American culture. I don't care, nor am I offended. But I would point it out to my kid -- or a friend -- so she might avoid an embarrassing moment.

I'd prefer she also didn't say she went to Springfield to check out the Basketball Hall of Fame, but here were a bunch of black people with bushy hair she couldn't see over.

Or to an Indian opera, but there were too many curry smelling people.

I'm no expert in this, just middle-class white parent who picks the hills he wants to die on. And stuff this isn't it.

Well, we'll just have to write it off as cultural confusion then, or cultural miscommunication.

I am not american. I'm a scandinavian expat that live near one of the largest, most vibrant, most exciting, and most ethnically diverse cities in Europe - and I love that.

If I have prejudices, and who don't, then I don't have american prejudices. Mine would be framed by a completely different historical, psychological, cultural, political and geographical frame of reference.

So, please do not accuse me of not being "sensitive" to things that are problematic in the US midwest and LA, and which I don't know anything about. :)

[colealpaugh]

If I have prejudices, and who don't,

I wouldn't suggest such a thing. And I can only speak to this country. As a youth sports coach, these issues have become part of our coaching clinics.

As to Kindles?

Douglas Quaid (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/): Ever heard of Kindles? They sell those fake memories.
Harry (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0182456/): Oh, "Kindles, Kindles, Kindles." You thinking of going there?
Douglas Quaid (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/): I don't know, maybe.
Harry (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0182456/): Well, don't. A friend of mine tried one their "special offers," nearly got himself lobotomized.
Douglas Quaid (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/): No shit?
Harry (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0182456/): Don't f*ck with your brain, pal. It ain't worth it.
Douglas Quaid (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000216/): I guess not.


Okay, I changed a word...

[Regan Leigh]

Beautiful women with short tempers rule. It's why I send Toothpaste nasty pm's all day long.


Ha, that was me annoyed, not angry. Angry looks much worse. Or better. Whichever. :)

Thread killer. :D

[Slushie]

Don't worry thread! I'll save you!




Oh, wow, this is bad. She really did a number on ya; huh. Does anybody know CPR? No? Maybe if I just...no, that never works.

I tried, thread, I really did...


It...it might be too late...

No! There is still hope! There has to be. You're too good for the back pages. Someone else will save you.

[Regan Leigh]

No, I think the killer was Cole's obscure movie quote spliced with the word Kindle. :Shrug:IMO

:D

Don't worry thread! I'll save you!




Oh, wow, this is bad. She really did a number on ya; huh. Does anybody know CPR? No? Maybe if I just...no, that never works.

I tried, thread, I really did...


It...it might be too late...

No! There is still hope! There has to be. You're too good for the back pages. Someone else will save you.

[Slushie]

You're innocent you say...? hmm...Cole...?

(but it could be a red herring)

Maybe...she is innocent...maybe...

(stop with the excessive ellipses; the don't add tension)

But who decides if this thread lives? Should it be taken off life support?

(Bring in the judge! Lock it up and throw away the key, judge Birol!)

Noooo! She's innocent! It's all my fault, judge! Me and my irrelevant posts and derails! It's all my fault...

[Regan Leigh]

You do realize you're talking to yourself within a post, right??

:D



You're innocent you say...? hmm...Cole...?

(but it could be a red herring)

Maybe...she is innocent...maybe...

(stop with the excessive ellipses; the don't add tension)

But who decides if this thread lives? Should it be taken off life support?

(Bring in the judge! Lock it up and throw away the key, judge Birol!)

Noooo! She's innocent! It's all my fault, judge! Me and my irrelevant posts and derails! It's all my fault...

[Lady Ice]

You are certainly welcome to your opinion. But not mine.

Do you know what the Mona Lisa smells like? Do you know what a Steinway sounding board feels like during Brahm's Intermezzi? And it's perfectly fine if you don't care. But some people care about the heft and the shadows, and the smell of the book. To some people it is artwork in its entirety.

Just sayin'.

I like physical reading. In the world of technology, it is an escape into a romantic past. I love buying second-hand books and thinking of all the people who read them before me, seeing the dedication they've put on the cover, laughing at their annotations, looking at the spine to see the deep crease where their favourite part is. e-books depersonalise it.
Same with CDs; it's the fun of going into the shop and searching through the music, looking at everybody else's tastes. It's a social thing.