Is it worth paying a literary consultancy to appraise your work? [Archive]

aruna

11-28-2009, 05:57 PM

Yes, if that's what you need.
My first novel had an appraisal I paid for. She made excellent suggestions, and acting on those suggestions I revised the novel and returned it to her for a second view.
She sent it on to a major agent (UK appraisal services often do this -- they are scouts for agencies), who phoned me and asked me to come to London. About two weeks later I had a five-figure contract with a major publisher, and th ebest editor in the world.
Some people may not need this, and for them the answer is no. For some, it may be just the thing they need.
Look at the list of authors the service (http://www.hilaryjohnson.demon.co.uk/authors.html)I used has on their website. Some of these are household names in the UK, bestseller writers, prizewinners. This shows that for some writers, it has been a fast-track into the buisness.
Sure, they may have arrive there anyway. But how long would it have taken?

If you want a profession eye on your ms, and can afford it, then why not? If you're fine with the adivce given by betas, then don't. It's as simple as that! A categorical yes or no does not make sense, when for so many writers this HAS been the direct route into publishing. The main thing is to choose a reputable service.

That said, your ms has to be already at a very high standard.
For my first novel, it was the right thing to do. I never did it again.

aruna

11-28-2009, 06:01 PM

As someone else mentioned above, if you're paying you might not get as honest an answer on your ms as someone that is doing it for the love.

It depends entirely on the service, and how good your ms is. Hilary gave me a very honest critique, showed me its weak points, and then left me to do the work. As a beginning writer I don't know where else I would have found such help.
I don't see how it is any different from attending a class in creative writing with one-to-one advice; you pay for those too! Reputation in the key word.
BTW there are many discussions on this on AW. Usually, everybody says no, and then I pop in and say yes, if that's what you need!:)

K.L. Townsend

11-28-2009, 06:23 PM

It depends entirely on the service, and how good your ms is. Hilary gave me a very honest critique, showed me its weak points, and then left me to do the work. As a beginning writer I don't know where else I would have found such help.
I don't see how it is any different from attending a class in creative writing with one-to-one advice; you pay for those too! Reputation in the key word.
BTW there are many discussions on this on AW. Usually, everybody says no, and then I pop in and say yes, if that's what you need!:)

It's just one of those things that pings at my Spidey sense. Maybe because I know a lot of people that have been victims of services that were less than stellar. I'm glad that you had a good experience though. That is always awesome :)

aruna

11-28-2009, 06:24 PM

We need to be always cautious in this business. Keep you Spidey sense intact!

Libbie

11-28-2009, 09:30 PM

No. That's my instinct talking.

a) You need to learn this, if you're going to be a writer
b) Your ms will be appraised in the slush pile at agents or publishers
c) A brutal beta reader won't have monetary interests in doing stuff with your book. Interests that may not have anything to do with the quality of your work, but with the bottom line of the appraiser instead.

At least that's my impression, and I'm no expert, so take this for what you will. :)

I totally agree. You can find several really good literary appraisers right here for free. And you DO need to learn how to critique your own work. Talking to a beta reader (or three) about their impressions of your book is the best way to start learning that.

jennontheisland

11-28-2009, 09:34 PM

NO.

Wayne K

11-28-2009, 09:42 PM

No.

No, no, a thousand times no.

No,

Don't pay anyone anything.

NO.
These.

LuckyH

11-28-2009, 10:06 PM

Although I agree with all the Nos, there are things that we pay for anyway, I was going to mention Microsoft Word until I remembered . . .

Then I was going to mention the 15% our agent is going to steal from us, but even in these troubled times it’s still possible to approach a publisher directly.

But, it has to be No, we should be paid for our writing, not the other way round.

You can get free appraisal on sites like this and that’s how it should be.

ORION

11-28-2009, 10:11 PM

Aruna has a good point. I know several authors who continue to use editors (former publishing professionals) while they revise. The thing is there is no replacement for learning to revise yourself and learning the process through beta's.
I will say that while my betas have been useful I find just the opposite - they are less honest than paid professionals. HOWEVER. There are enormous numbers of scams out there. Your money and time may be better spent on trying to go to a retreat or conference such as Squaw valley -- Dunno --
But like everything else in writing there are no rules- if you have the money and it feels legit and you think you need it as your betas aren't helping you....then maybe yes...

xcomplex

11-28-2009, 10:17 PM

I do agree with the No but sometimes a beginning author just needs help.. Like I sent my work for a sample edit and the editor told me "Oh my, you are amazing, I love your work" he barely found any mistakes and I was like "wow". That wasn't the end though, I was about to get him to look through my work when another editor which used to work at a publishing house edited my ms and found tons of suggestions. So clearly I went with the second because he thinks that my book is very publishable, it's just that I need some help. They also gave me contacts to well known agents :) now I know you guys are all very experienced writers so you may not need that but I am still in high school, and I think the first novel is.. hmm what can I say the first.

waylander

11-28-2009, 10:19 PM

How many times are we going to have this discussion? Can we get one thread made a sticky?

I'm with Aruna. It depends
It depends on where you are in your writing, whether you have exhausted all the free options such as crit groups and beta readers. If you have then it is worth considering.
As I have said elsewhere on AW (several times, for example here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4285930#post4285930 and here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4251296#post4251296) I paid for a top-class former editorial director in my genre to edit my novel. It was worth it.
Until you've had this done you cannot appreciate the difference between well-intentioned, but unpublished, beta readers and someone who has years of experience of editing at the highest level.

aruna

11-28-2009, 10:21 PM

Under the right circumstances: YES

The OP is form England. Remember, folks, that in the UK there are several very reputable ms critique servcies and there is no stigma attached to using them; many well known authors (Katie Fforde, Christina Jones for example) have used them and they are both huge over here. Remember too that what is useful for one person may not be useful for another. It really depends onwhat is good for you.

As a beginning writer, I would always prefer to pay for a good, experienced editor for a one-on-one critique of my ms than beta readers. First of all, how good are those beta readers? You can't choose the best, as you can with a paid editor; since they critique you for free you just have to take what you get; and who knows how good that person is? Then again, how long will they take? Since they are working for free you cannot ask them to hurry up.

Most of all, for me, however, is the fact that someone betas for me I would feel obliged to beta for them which is something I really, really don't want to do and don't have the time for.

So yes; as a starting-out writer needing feedback I would prefer to pay cash, if I had it; choose someone with a stellar reputation who comes highly recommended, preferably from the UK; and know that in 2 or 3 weeks I will have my critique and can run with it.

Anyways: here is a post by AW's own Jane Smith (Old Hack) from How Publishing Really Works. (http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/05/editorial-agencies.html)
And, haha! she mentions me! She gives good advice on how to go about it, if that is the route you choose to go, and the OP might want to take a look.

aruna

11-28-2009, 10:25 PM

I keep hearing the mantra: one needs to learn to do it oneself.
Of course! Please understand: this editor does not do the work for you. He or she merely points out the weaknesses, the plot holes, the areas that need strengthening, and then YOU DO IT YOURSELF.

PeterL

11-28-2009, 11:15 PM

If you are willing to hire me as the consultant, then you should, otherwise avoid such consultants.

I never dreamed that there were people who made money as literary consultants. If I had known, then I would have become one.

timewaster

11-28-2009, 11:19 PM

[QUOTE=DannySherbet;4308760]Is it worth paying a literary consultancy to appraise your work?

In the UK there are consultancies, some of which advertise in the Writers' & Artists' Yearbook, that, for a fee, will read and appraise your work. These consultancies offer to provide useful feedback on your work that will, according to the consultancies, make it more appealing to a publisher or an agent. The downside, of course, is the fee: the consultancies, or at least those I have looked at, charge a fee in the region of two hundred pounds to assess the synopsis and the first three chapters.

Looking at it from the other angle I have done some of this for' Cornerstones' a UK firm. I was very impressed by the example I was given as a model and when I appraised a mss myself decided it was not worth my while. It took a lot of time, I gave it a lot of thought and I decided there were easier ways of making money. It is certainly cheaper than doing a creative writing MA and if you get a good firm you will get high quality feedback from professionals of the kind it is hard to get if you are unpublished. Betas may have plenty to say but they may not know what they are talking about - it is kind of the luck of the draw.
I wouldn't rule it out but I would be very careful about the company I picked. You can learn a lot from a good one.

MicheleLee

11-28-2009, 11:57 PM

It really really depends.

I have known people who used editors and having read their raw and finished work I can clearly see they are better for it.

But I also know many, many people who offer editing services who I would not trust at all. Some I just wouldn't pay for when I could do it myself and there are a few who I know have been known to edit out things they don't approve of (like sex and profanity).

The good thing about being poor is that you don't fall for this kind of thing because you can't afford to :) If I ever paid someone to edit or read my manuscript it would be someone whose work I read, loved and admired.

There are a lot of people out there, especially in the lower levels who try to comp for a lack of sales with editing money. Some really are good at it. Some really aren't. Mostly they just charge for something you could easily do yourself, so why pay?

Jess Haines

11-29-2009, 12:22 AM

I used a paid critique service. I don't think I would've gotten my book deal without it.

That said, it's not for everyone. It really depends on what you think you need. Try working with betas first -- if it still doesn't quite seem to come out right, then consider it as an option. Or start a new ms. :)

LuckyH

11-29-2009, 01:12 AM

Having agreed with the Nos, I have a guilty secret.

Just after the start of my writing career, I paid for a professional editor to edit a manuscript. I remember agreeing with the edit in total, at least superficially, and managed to sell the edited manuscript to a mainstream publisher.

The editor assigned to me more or less re-edited the whole thing back to my original MS and I had paid something like £200 for nothing.

About the price of Microsoft Office, which I got for free, so there were no losers, apart from Bill Gates, and I’m sure he wasn’t worried.

Jamesaritchie

11-29-2009, 02:18 AM

No, it's not worth it. If you don't need the help, it's a complete waste of money. If you do need the help, they can't help you for any amount of money.

Money should flow to the writer, never, ever away from the writer.

popmuze

11-29-2009, 03:51 AM

All I know is, whenever I pick up one of these hefty literary novels that won a Pulitzer Prize or a National Book Award, generally all I ever see in the acknowledgements is "Thanks to Jeff, who read an earlier draft, and my wife who picked over every word, and Frank and Sue and the owner of the coffee shop on the corner who pointed out major flaws, my first editor, my second editor, the first twelve agents, three professors, and my two year old daughter who was the only one to get the joke on page 287.

cwfgal

11-29-2009, 04:02 AM

I have to agree with the "depends" people. In the majority of cases I'd say run, don't walk away from any such service that asks the writer for money. Most such services are scams (though it sounds like things may be different in the UK).

That said, I admit that I once paid for critiquing services though I approached it a bit differently. I took a creative writing class in college (actually, I took a bunch of them but this one stood out because of the instructor and the way the class was structured) and the instructor was a published novelist and a starving grad student. It became clear to me early on that he knew his stuff and his critiques of our work in class were spot on. I learned a ton in that class and was sad when it ended. And I felt my writing improved by leaps and bounds as a result. Still, I knew I wasn't good enough yet and I was having trouble seeing and understanding all the flaws in my own work.

So once the class was done, I offered to pay the instructor to critique a novel I was writing at the time. He agreed and each week I gave him a chapter, which he thoroughly marked up, and then we would meet at a local coffee house and go over his comments. I can't remember for sure what I paid him (I think it was a dollar a page -- this was in the early nineties) but I found our sessions to be the best writing advice and help I'd ever received. He felt obligated by the payment to put some serious time and effort into the critique (I'd used beta readers prior to this but I'd never been very satisfied with the level of feedback I received). He went over grammatical stuff, passive voice, showing and telling, and a number of other things, pointing out the specific spots where I'd blundered or written something that could be stronger. And then he would show me how to rewrite it to make it stronger. By the time we finished that novel, I felt that for the first time, I got it. I finally GOT IT.

I tossed that novel in the closet because it was a chick lit thing that I wasn't wild about and I felt it was flawed beyond repair. Plus, there was something else I wanted to write. I had an idea for a paranormal suspense novel that I wanted to explore. It took me a year to write that novel -- only the second one I'd ever finished -- and it not only got me my first agent, it ended up being my first pubbed novel: COLD WHITE FURY. My grad student instructor got a big nod in the acknowledgments.

Now, 15 years later, I have four published novels out, one coming out in 2010, and one more under contract. Would I have gotten to this point without that instructor's help? Maybe, but I doubt it. I truly believe the money I paid him was the best investment I ever made in my writing career. At the time it was $300-and-some bucks I really couldn't afford, but I'm sooo happy I scraped it together and did what I did.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

scarletpeaches

11-29-2009, 04:03 AM

Just think. Everyone else is paying for help and I gots me some Lori for free.

Nyar!:tongue

kuwisdelu

11-29-2009, 04:07 AM

Just think. Everyone else is paying for help and I gots me some Lori for free.

Nyar!:tongue

You just think it's free.

scarletpeaches

11-29-2009, 04:08 AM

IT? You call her IT?

kuwisdelu

11-29-2009, 04:10 AM

IT? You call her IT?

I was referring to the service she, ahem, provides you.

scarletpeaches

11-29-2009, 04:11 AM

For the benefit of anyone else, I wish to clarify she BETAS for me.

Nothing else.

Carry on.

thethinker42

11-29-2009, 04:14 AM

You just think it's free.

;)

For the benefit of anyone else, I wish to clarify she BETAS for me.

Nothing else.

Carry on.

Ungrateful wench...

kuwisdelu

11-29-2009, 04:19 AM

For the benefit of anyone else, I wish to clarify she BETAS for me.

Nothing else.

Carry on.

In more seriousness, the kind of beta relationship you two share is far more valuable than anything any literary consultancy can provide.

If one has the benefit of choosing between paying for such a thing and finding a willing beta who can stay with you much longer and get to know your writing and how best to help you, you're much better off with the beta, IMO.

If you don't have the opportunity, such a service might be worth it.

Cliff Face

11-29-2009, 04:22 AM

I must admit, seeing the relationship between Lori and SP, I'm a little jealous, and not just for the sexual overtones. I'd LOVE to have a beta who was on my wavelength. Still, I need to wait until the new year before I start asking around for betas. I need to finish current WIP then edit it + edit my previous work. The idea is to be able to query two books that aren't related, to increase my chance of hitting a match.

But when I do get betas, I hope I can find someone on my wavelenght. If only I wrote erotica, I could hit up SP and Lori, if I could tear them away from each other ;) But I've been writing SF/F/Comedy/Thriller - so not really their thing, I'm afraid.

But I WILL find a good beta damn it! *evil laughter for no apparent reason*

I can worry about that in a few months. :)

Cliff Face

11-29-2009, 04:27 AM

Oh, and I agree that money should flow towards the writer.

That said, my mum knows an editor through work (she's an accountant and knows pretty much at least one person in every profession) so as soon as she sees her again, I'm hopefully going to have a chance for a "mate's rates" editing relationship - I'd still have to pay, I imagine, but the editor could maybe pick up on some things that betas wouldn't - maybe. At the very least, she's worked for a few publishers in Australia and America, so she can give me some advice on what they look for in writing that is straight from the horses mouth (though it'll probably just be stock-standard "good writing and interesting story"...)

Meanwhile, I don't think she's working for a publisher right now, so I don't have a back way in to the biz. :(

scarletpeaches

11-29-2009, 04:28 AM

We regret to inform you that the SP/tt42 Agency of Win is closed to submissions at this time and wish you luck in your hunt for the perfect writing partner elsewhere.I must admit, seeing the relationship between Lori and SP, I'm a little jealous, and not just for the sexual overtones. I'd LOVE to have a beta who was on my wavelength. Still, I need to wait until the new year before I start asking around for betas.We didn't ask. We just kinda...appeared for each other. Either God was rewarding us or it's Lucifer's doing.

Personally I blame the Bringer of Light. :)But when I do get betas, I hope I can find someone on my wavelenght. If only I wrote erotica, I could hit up SP and Lori, if I could tear them away from each other ;) But I've been writing SF/F/Comedy/Thriller - so not really their thing, I'm afraid.Plus, our bond was formed in blood, smex and mancandy and as Michael Hutchence said before he wanked himself to death in a hotel room, you'll "Never tear us apart."

(n.b. We may have taken to referring to ourselves as 'writing partners' rather than betas but even that suggests we collaborate on projects, which we don't, so we're still searching for the perfect term. Answers on a postcard).

Maxinquaye

11-29-2009, 04:30 AM

Meanwhile, I don't think she's working for a publisher right now, so I don't have a back way in to the biz. :(

http://editorialanonymous.blogspot.com/2009/11/rerun-im-your-sisters-bikini-waxers-ex.html

Sorry, was just reminded of this blogpost from one of the funniest blogs on the net. :)

Wayne K

11-29-2009, 04:31 AM

we're still searching for the perfect term. Answers on a postcard).
Partners in grime?
Unholy alliance?
Thinker tank?

Feel free to use any of these:D

Cliff Face

11-29-2009, 05:45 AM

We regret to inform you that the SP/tt42 Agency of Win is closed to submissions at this time and wish you luck in your hunt for the perfect writing partner elsewhere.We didn't ask. We just kinda...appeared for each other. Either God was rewarding us or it's Lucifer's doing.

Personally I blame the Bringer of Light. :)Plus, our bond was formed in blood, smex and mancandy and as Michael Hutchence said before he wanked himself to death in a hotel room, you'll "Never tear us apart."

(n.b. We may have taken to referring to ourselves as 'writing partners' rather than betas but even that suggests we collaborate on projects, which we don't, so we're still searching for the perfect term. Answers on a postcard).

Maybe if I made out with a guy on youtube I could get an honorary position in the fan club...

kaitie

11-29-2009, 10:25 AM

I just wanted to mention something I haven't seen posted here yet. I've toyed with this idea myself but wouldn't do it out of what basically amounts to paranoia of being ripped off. However, when I consider why I would want to, it all basically comes down to insecurity in my own ability. I'm not 100% confident that my writing or story is any good at all. Yes, the people around me tell me it is, yes I read it and think, "I could see this being published for real," but until a professional looks at it and tells me it doesn't suck, I'm still not going to be completely confident in it.

I think a person really needs to examine the why. A good beta reader should be able to provide the same services. Why would you want a professional to look at it for you? Is it because there are things you know are wrong but have no idea of how to fix? Are you someone who is weak in grammar (someone mentioned being a second-language speaker of English. I could see this being useful to make sure all the language is natural)? Or are you basically just looking for a professional to say "This doesn't suck?"

If you can find a real, legitimate reason why you feel that your work needs a professional's hand and that beta readers can't or won't help you, then maybe it's worth considering, but I think for the vast, vast majority of us the answer should be a big resounding no.

I also agree that we're better off learning to critique ourselves, but I've heard stories of published writers who can tell a great story but have such poor technical skills that everything must be heavily edited before it ever reaches print. So I do believe there are certain, however rare, times that it might be useful.

aruna

11-29-2009, 01:03 PM

Just think. Everyone else is paying for help and I gots me some Lori for free.

Nyar!:tongue

No, she didn't do it for free: you paid her back, by betaing for her: you paid with your time, and your ability. Some people do not have that time, or ability.

I betaed for someone (not an AWer) last year, for free. It took me several months to finish the ms and it was a huge sacrifice in time for me. I just could not afford to do this for free again. For that reason I don't want others to do it for me. Time for me is more precious than money.

[QUOTE]No, I wouldn't go with this whether they are legit or not.
YOU wouldn't. Why shouldn't others, if it helps, andif they can afford it?
No, it's not worth it. If you don't need the help, it's a complete waste of money. If you do need the help, they can't help you for any amount of money.
(my bold)

Of course they can! A good critique is exactly what many aspiring authors desperately need, and many HAVE been helped by them: including myself - proving your statement to be blatently untrue.

Money should flow to the writer, never, ever away from the writer. When it comes to the last step, actually publishing, YES of course. When it comes to training, education: in every profession people pay to reach their expertise. Manuscript critique falls under the heading "education".

Can someone explain to me why it is OK to attend writing courses and workshops, do MA's in creating writing, but not to have an expert critique from an editor who has possibly worked with a major publisher, or from a multi-published author???? People pay hundreds, thousands even, for such courses, yet I don't hear the "Money flows to the writer" warning there. IMO a good critique is better value for money, as you are getting specific advice tailored to your own work.

I am genuinly puzzled by the degree of prejudice this topic never fails to generate: as if ALL critiquers are scammers out to get your money.

You all don't seem to be against critiques per se, but only against paying for them. Why is is OK to use an amateur, probably unpublished writer for a critique, but not a qualified professional, whose time is valuable? It takes ages to read and critique a whole manuscript; why should that work not be appropriately compensated? Whether you pay in money or time: surely it is the quality that counts; and quality usually comes at a price. I can't imagine a busy author or editor betaing for a complete stranger for free. And not everyone has SP's luck, to find a qualified friend.

Read for one moment this page from H ilary Johnson's critique service, and let me know if this sounds like a scam.
http://www.hilaryjohnson.demon.co.uk/readers.html
Our readers are mainly professional editors with both wide experience of advising writers and good knowledge of the publishing and book-selling industries. Some are also published authors, but it is their editorial skills which are of prime importance when it comes to giving authors really practical help.Their reports provide a thorough analysis of the text, take account, where relevant, of commercial considerations and, if necessary, offer guidance on matters such as presentation. Any queries which may arise from the comments made in the report are welcome. We are also pleased to look at material which has been revised following a report and can do this at a reduced rate.

Oh, and I agree that money should flow towards the writer.

See my post above. This applies to the publishing, not to the learning process.

That said, I admit that I once paid for critiquing services though I approached it a bit differently. I took a creative writing class in college (actually, I took a bunch of them but this one stood out because of the instructor and the way the class was structured) and the instructor was a published novelist and a starving grad student. It became clear to me early on that he knew his stuff and his critiques of our work in class were spot on. I learned a ton in that class and was sad when it ended. And I felt my writing improved by leaps and bounds as a result. Still, I knew I wasn't good enough yet and I was having trouble seeing and understanding all the flaws in my own work.

I was doing an MA in creative writing and authorship last year
Our Masterclass tutor was absolutely brillliant: he's a published novelist himself, once repped by Al Zuckerman of Writers House, now publishing with small publishers, as his work is too quirky to make the bestseller lists. He was fantastic, and the feedback I got within the course was worth gold: I was revising an old and much loved unpublished mansucript, hoping to get it up to a different level. Within the MA course it was only able to get feedback on the first chapters.
Irving (my tutor) does offer complete ms critiques as a private option outside the MA course, and I have no doubt he would have worked wonders with the rest of my ms. I'd recommend him to anyone who can afford it without the slightest qualms.

Many published authors in the literary genre have taken MA courses in Creative Writing. It's often in their acknowledgements. I can name two off the cuff right now: Monique Roffey (actually in her case a PhD) and Emma Darwin. I see no difference between that and a qualified one-to-one critique, just that the latter has these dark ghosts attached screaming NO! DON'T DO IT! Without being able to satisfactorily answer the question: why not?

cwfgal

11-29-2009, 01:07 PM

Why pay someone when you can get a beta reader? In some cases, you get what you pay for. In theory, paying someone for a service should oblige them to give you more attention and time than you might get from someone who is merely volunteering. It might also get you someone who is more skilled. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. Fortunately, for me, it did.

My betas were great and helpful to an extent, but most of the betas I had before I was published were also unpublished. It started to feel a little like the blind leading the blind. Not to dis betas because they definitely serve a purpose and have value, and the betas I had twenty years ago are still friends today. But they didn't provide me with near the guidance and education that the paid, published novelist gave me. He dissected that novel, line by line, word by word. It was like having a private tutor. And to be honest, it wasn't all that different from paying tuition to take writing classes in college. It's part of the learning process and all of it contributed to my "apprenticeship." But the one-on-one attention of the paid person was far and away the best help I got.

Finding betas who are already published isn't easy. Most "move on" once they are published and won't provide those services on a voluntary basis to unpublished writers anymore...or so it was for me. I vowed to be different and offered to beta for several writers after I was pubbed, but a couple of them were so rude, argumentative, and defensive about the suggestions I made, I dropped them (this was ten + years ago in a different writing forum). I didn't and don't need that kind of aggravation, pubbed or not.

My "paid beta" did so much for me and my writing career, and I've tried to pay it forward when I can. I've found people here to be very open and receptive to critiques for the most part (a huge kudos to the board owners and managers for maintaining this great environment) and I enjoy critiquing stuff in the SYW area when I have the time (which I have very little of thanks to two jobs other than my writing one). But I don't want to commit to a beta partnership anymore because I don't have the necessary free time to devote the attention I think should be given.

Would I advocate paying for such services? Depends on the situation and people I suppose. I can't say never to the idea because it clearly is helpful to some and I don't think there are many, if any absolutes in writing. That said, buyer beware. There are a lot of scammers out there. And as others have said, if you don't have some level of basic ability and talent, I'm not sure all the money and talented writers in the world will help.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

K.L. Townsend

11-29-2009, 07:39 PM

Can someone explain to me why it is OK to attend writing courses and workshops, do MA's in creating writing, but not to have an expert critique from an editor who has possibly worked with a major publisher, or from a multi-published author???? People pay hundreds, thousands even, for such courses, yet I don't hear the "Money flows to the writer" warning there. IMO a good critique is better value for money, as you are getting specific advice tailored to your own work.

I am genuinly puzzled by the degree of prejudice this topic never fails to generate: as if ALL critiquers are scammers out to get your money.

I bolded the part in particular that I wanted to address.

Because in the US, you have a very hard time finding the difference between a LEGIT editor who can help you with your manuscript and one who is a scam. Now, I've been told it's different in the UK and the OP is from the UK. That's fine. But it's healthy to be skeptical of the services out there no matter where you live. So many people do get scammed or can find ways to better their writing without paying out.

(And I use this argument for workshops you pay for and classes as well. At least with classes, you usually have the university's reputation behind it.)

This is my opinion, of course. But if you have viable other options that are just as good then why not take them? Critique groups. Betas. Those are free. And just because they are free doesn't mean their services are bad.
You all don't seem to be against critiques per se, but only against paying for them. Why is is OK to use an amateur, probably unpublished writer for a critique, but not a qualified professional, whose time is valuable? It takes ages to read and critique a whole manuscript; why should that work not be appropriately compensated? Whether you pay in money or time: surely it is the quality that counts; and quality usually comes at a price. I can't imagine a busy author or editor betaing for a complete stranger for free. And not everyone has SP's luck, to find a qualified friend.

This is where I start to get twitchy because the argument seems to say that only people with certain credentials are the ones that can make your work better. However, there are people out there who might not be editor but are such avid readers they know instinctively what works and what doesn't. I find their input just as valuable.

Toothpaste

11-29-2009, 07:50 PM

I think aruna's issue isn't that one ought not to be careful in seeking out such services, but rather with some of the absolute "NO!"s that have appeared in this thread. She is trying to offer the counter opinion, which is one that says:

Let's say you don't have friends or colleagues in your social circle who are competent writers and critiquers. Let's say you have done your research well. Let's say that you've done a lot of work on your MS yourself, are willing to take a professional critique as a learning opportunity, and you understand that editing is something you as an author will have to be proficient at in time. Then, yes, it is perfectly acceptable to use such a service.

aruna

11-29-2009, 08:37 PM

This is my opinion, of course. But if you have viable other options that are just as good then why not take them? Critique groups. Betas. Those are free. And just because they are free doesn't mean their services are bad.

.

No, they are not necessarily bad. And if you have them, use them by all means. But again: they are not free. If I used them I would feel at least a MORAL obligation to either return the favour, or pay it forward, by reading and critiquing mss in my turn. That's a cost in time, which to me at the moment is very short. (I am the 24/7 carer of my severly disabled husband, and have far too much on my plate as it is.) If I needed a critique I'd much rather pay the necessary to a reputable editor and be free of any further obligations.

And don't forget: with the "free" services one needs to be just as careful, simply because you do not choose them, they choose you.

bearilou

11-29-2009, 08:45 PM

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. My initial (and completely inexperienced) reaction was ZOMG NO!

In reading further, I can see the value in finding someone reputable and how it can benefit the writer further.

I guess, as in all things, a little judicious research, getting recommendations and a healthy dose of critical reading into a service goes a long way to help keep scammers out of the pool.

aruna

11-29-2009, 08:56 PM

I think aruna's issue isn't that one ought not to be careful in seeking out such services, but rather with some of the absolute "NO!"s that have appeared in this thread. She is trying to offer the counter opinion, which is one that says:

Yes. Those absolute NO's -- suggesting that it's not even worth putting forward an argument, no exceptions EVER possible -- come very close to disrespecting your fellow author, considering that there are a couple of published authors, and a couple of editors who do such work, on AW. It is saying we are complete idiots.

waylander

11-29-2009, 08:56 PM

But if you have viable other options that are just as good then why not take them? Critique groups. Betas. Those are free. And just because they are free doesn't mean their services are bad.

Somewhere along the way my point appears to have been overlooked.
To restate it: the editor I paid gave me insights that were a quantum level above the (very competent) critique group and the other beta readers that had read the novel.

aruna

11-29-2009, 09:02 PM

I still say no. Before someone leaps out of their seat: That for me, not you.

For me writing is about me making something good enough that an editor will work with me, not getting an editor to make it good enough for an editor to do so.

That's not what happens with an assessment service. A good editor makes suggestions, and you do the work.
A second pair of eyes is always good.

aruna

11-29-2009, 09:05 PM

No, it isn't. You insinuating that we're being disrespectful is disrespectful. Someone asked our opinion. We answered. Simple.

To say no, without saying why no, or without saying "No, not for me, but maybe for others", is pretty categorical. It means no exception possible. Meaning that those who have done so have broken an unspoken rule.

K.L. Townsend

11-29-2009, 09:06 PM

To say no, without saying why no, or without saying "No, not for me, but maybe for others", is pretty categorical. It means no exception possible. Meaning that those who have done so have broken an unspoken rule.

I was under the impression that we were all giving our opinion here. I thought that was the point of this thread. To have to qualify "not just me but maybe for others" doesn't seem necessary since I thought the whole point was to state our opinion to the question.

No, they are not necessarily bad. And if you have them, use them by all means. But again: they are not free. If I used them I would feel at least a MORAL obligation to either return the favour, or pay it forward, by reading and critiquing mss in my turn. That's a cost in time, which to me at the moment is very short. (I am the 24/7 carer of my severly disabled husband, and have far too much on my plate as it is.) If I needed a critique I'd much rather pay the necessary to a reputable editor and be free of any further obligations.

And don't forget: with the "free" services one needs to be just as careful, simply because you do not choose them, they choose you.

Well, my free services haven't chosen me. It was a mutual service. And while I still say it's free - in terms of monetary obligation - I never said it couldn't be mutual. I beta for people who beta for me. Sometimes I beta for people who have no interest in what I write.

I think the biggest issue with finding a beta is making sure they are honest with you. But I can say the same for some editing outfits as well.

In the end, I guess it comes down to personal judgment.

aruna

11-29-2009, 09:10 PM

Well, my free services haven't chosen me. .

With that I meant was: a writer might start thread in AW saying hey, I need a beta, who's willing? And they have to take what's on offer -- or choose among those who offer -- rather than going up to someone who is offering the service and saying, I want YOU.

aruna

11-29-2009, 09:13 PM

Toothpaste

11-29-2009, 09:17 PM

I was under the impression that we were all giving our opinion here. I thought that was the point of this thread. To have to qualify "not just me but maybe for others" doesn't seem necessary since I thought the whole point was to state our opinion to the question.

While yes on forums you have to assume that things are all a matter of opinion, this forum is a little different, especially considering there are some questions that can be answered with absolutes ("should I spell check my MS?" "yes" etc). Answering any question that a person has asked in the hopes of getting advice on how to behave requires a slightly more deft touch than saying whatever you want. Granted I suppose anyone is allowed to say what they want to, but there is a precedent here that has been set in the past of members stating totally incorrect opinions over and over to the point where it has been seen as damaging and that member has been banned. So it's clear that it isn't necessarily "obvious" that posts here are just an individual's opinion as opposed to fact.

If one is going to say "no" one should explain why they believe that. And many here did. But there were some who just said "no" and when one posts something like that it comes across as if it must be a universal truth. The manner of the answer is almost the answer itself. Such a "no" can then prompt the questioner not to look at any other answers, because obviously this is a question of absolutes so those other answers must be wrong.

Besides, and I said something like this in another thread, what's wrong with being as clear as possible, especially in a medium that can so easily be misinterpreted?

ChaosTitan

11-29-2009, 09:19 PM

This is obviously a passionate subject for some, and it's also a very informative thread. Perhaps it's time to take a step back and let it cool before anything flares beyond reasonable discussion?

aruna

11-29-2009, 09:45 PM

This is obviously a passionate subject for some, and it's also a very informative thread. Perhaps it's time to take a step back and let it cool before anything flares beyond reasonable discussion?

Definitely. I have to admit, that all the absolute NO answers, after I had posted what I thought was a fairly informative post about my own very positive experience, got my back up. I felt I was being forced to go on the defensive., and write, and write, and write, whereas others considered a mere NO answer enough.
So I am withdrawing for the time being, and taking a deep breath.

K.L. Townsend

11-29-2009, 09:54 PM

Yes. And that opinion is that since it's categorically, always bad to do so, those who have done so are fools. That is definitely between the lines.
Usually, on other threads at least, people give an opinion and then explain it. Not so on this subject, it seems.

Whoa wait. I never thought anyone said anyone was a fool here. I thought it was actually a very interesting discussion where I learned things I didn't know before.

I guess I don't understand what the problem is.

While yes on forums you have to assume that things are all a matter of opinion, this forum is a little different, especially considering there are some questions that can be answered with absolutes ("should I spell check my MS?" "yes" etc). Answering any question that a person has asked in the hopes of getting advice on how to behave requires a slightly more deft touch than saying whatever you want. Granted I suppose anyone is allowed to say what they want to, but there is a precedent here that has been set in the past of members stating totally incorrect opinions over and over to the point where it has been seen as damaging and that member has been banned. So it's clear that it isn't necessarily "obvious" that posts here are just an individual's opinion as opposed to fact.

If one is going to say "no" one should explain why they believe that. And many here did. But there were some who just said "no" and when one posts something like that it comes across as if it must be a universal truth. The manner of the answer is almost the answer itself. Such a "no" can then prompt the questioner not to look at any other answers, because obviously this is a question of absolutes so those other answers must be wrong.

Besides, and I said something like this in another thread, what's wrong with being as clear as possible, especially in a medium that can so easily be misinterpreted?

Nothing wrong with being an clear as possible. I actually thought I explained my position, so I wasn't sure why I was being lumped into the outright no's. I may disagree, but I thought I've been very civil.

I thought we were all having an interesting discussion. I'm not new to how forums work and I rarely get into arguments with people in general. So I've been a little surprised by how things have unfolded here.

Albannach

11-29-2009, 09:57 PM

Let me point out that all too often in critique groups you get -- not very good advice. It has to be accepted very carefully if at all and that assumes that the author knows enough to know which advice to accept and which not to accept.

I've been in a couple of critique groups where the advice given was so bad it made me cringe. Yes, I left and actually I've never paid an editor. But if you need help... I think you have to be open to several ways to go. And as someone who has taken university writing courses, heck, I've taught them as an assistant, you better be careful there, too. Some professors don't have a clue.

The fact is that there is no one way to get help and you have to be careful about taking ANYONE'S advice. Editors are EXPENSIVE--especially good ones. But I also happen to know a couple of very good ones out there (who I can't afford lol) so it's not fair to imply that they're all scams. They're not.

Edit: And in the critique group you're put in the position of pretending to accept horrible advice or at least biting your tongue until it bleeds or explaining why it isn't acceptable to... whatever and then being rude which is a situation I LOATHE.

ChaosTitan

11-29-2009, 10:12 PM

Nothing wrong with being an clear as possible. I actually thought I explained my position, so I wasn't sure why I was being lumped into the outright no's.

You weren't. At least, not that I could see.

Most folks have, in fact, done a good job explaining their positions. It's the few who haven't that sparked this entire last page of posts.

But really, I think the OP's question has been answered, and it's now up to him/her to make that final call.

K.L. Townsend

11-29-2009, 10:14 PM

Jamesaritchie

11-29-2009, 10:18 PM

The fact is that there is no one way to get help and you have to be careful about taking ANYONE'S advice. Editors are EXPENSIVE--especially good ones. But I also happen to know a couple of very good ones out there (who I can't afford lol) so it's not fair to imply that they're all scams. They're not.

It doesn't have anything to do with being a scam, or with the quality of the editor. It has to do with publishers needing writers who don't need such hired editors.

If you can't do the same work for yourself that the hired editor is going to do for you, how can you possibly do that same work after a publisher buys the book?

And unless that hired editor makes your book darned near perfect, you will have to be able to revise, rewrite, and edit the book, perhaps from start to finish, after the publisher buys it, and definitely if the pubisher simply shows interest in it.

Show me a hired editor who can make a book that perfect, and forget the writer. I want a book written by the editor.

Money should always flow to the writer. Paying anyone else to do anything connected with writing and editing just means the writer never learns how to do the essential parets of writing needed to be a good writer that publisher can expect to deliver quality writing, and quality editing, on time.

But, of course, too much power is attributed to advice. No one can make a writer hire an editor, and no one can force a writer not to hire an editor.

Brindle MacWuff

11-29-2009, 10:33 PM

Yes, with conditions.

We know how tough it is getting published, and that the percentage of ms which are accepted by agents is very, very low. To get into that percentage, your work needs to be exceptional, not just ‘very good’.

I would certainly advise a literary consultant, but only at the point where;

1. You have completely finished your ms and can think of no more changes to do.
2. You are not getting any interest from agents, and you can’t work out why.

I have used two consultants, and I would recommend Claire Wingfield in Edinburgh. She gave me an extraordinarily useful report that, I think, sent my ms over the edge into the area where agents really start to take interest.

I had used a previous literary consultant, after which my hit rate with agents went from 0/5 to 2/5.

One of these hits was eventually turned down after a partial submission, and when the other agent asked for a partial, I had the ms checked by Claire Wingfield before I sent it in (as there must have been a reason that the other partial didn’t succeed – and I didn’t know what that reason was).

The changes she suggested were mostly around narrative construction, plotting and characterization, and it made one hell of a difference to the story.

After her report, my partial succeeded, and I was asked to submit a full ms. I'm now waiting on their final decision.

I'm damn close, and I don't think I would have got there without the extra edge that the literary consultant report gave me.

But make sure there is absolutely no more work you can do to the ms before you submit. That way, you’ll get your money’s worth. Remember, they are not infallible. You may not agree with their opinions or recommendations. That’s fine, it’s your book.

One other point to make here. I’m a writer, not a professional editor. I know from experience, that I’m too close to the coal face to make an objective appraisal of my work.

Agents are not there to hold your hand and guide you through the writing process. They want a fully fledged ms that they can polish and sell. After all, it’s business. They don’t have time to be your tutor, it’s not their job.

If you think you can make it without a lit. consultant, then I have nothing but admiration for you, and I wish you the very best. You’re taking the longer, harder road, but it gets to the same destination. Lit. consultants won’t work for everyone, but for me, it was one of the best decisions I have ever made.

Bon chance!

Brindle MacWuff

11-29-2009, 10:43 PM

[QUOTE=Wayne K;4312145]I think the question is being forgotten here. It's not whether editors are good or not, it's whether it's better than a good beta reader.

I

Very good point, but not sure that was the OP's original questions. Or was it? it can't tell any more, the drugs are kicking in and I think I'm an otter. If it was the original question, then I'm going to smack myself in the shins with a very large cake.

However, there are some scam artist consultants out there, so get recomendations for lt. consultants. And if you have a good beta reader, then you are a lucky, lucky... otter.

Toothpaste

11-29-2009, 10:48 PM

Sorry if I'm defensive, but I feel like I'm defending my beta readers here. My agent sent me back edits of the first 180 pages of my ms the other day and remarked how well written and error free it was.

Them, not me. If I sent it before they tore it up I would have been embarrassed.

Not sure why you feel this way when almost all posts in this thread support the use of betas. In fact the few people saying paying for a good critique never once said a beta was a bad idea, just pointed out how at times they could be less than useful as well. You are in majority in this thread, so it's all good man, it's all good. And for the record. A good beta is awesome. I should know, I have several.

James - you are, on the other hand, one of the ones who are talking absolutes. Unless you truly believe an author should never have an outside eye (because otherwise they'll never learn nothin') I don't see how you can argue against paying a professional who is not a scam artist for their help if an author has no one in their social circle to beta for them.

No one is saying anything about an outside editor writing the book for an author, I don't where you are getting this idea. Aruna has already said that such services tend to result in even more work for the author because the editor makes suggestions, and it is the author who needs to fix it. This isn't about sending in some manuscript so someone can correct spelling and grammar and send it off. This is about having an outside eye to read what you've written, in the exact same way you use beta readers. It is a very viable option for those who have done the research, have the funds, and don't have any other way to get an outside look.

I believe writers should learn how to edit themselves, but also let's not kid ourselves. Those of us who have agents and editors have an automatic outside eye, and yes, we definitely rely on them. Those who don't aren't so lucky. I've never used such a hired editor myself, but I know that, especially in the UK, it's done often, and done well. We all need another person's opinion on our work. With professional reputable editors one can get a very experienced opinion.

waylander

11-29-2009, 10:50 PM

Albannach

11-29-2009, 10:52 PM

Well, part of the problem is that not all of us have a good beta reader.

JamesRitchie, I think you have a point but you're assuming that someone can't learn from working with an editor. I can say that I have although it wasn't one who I paid. The publisher did. But I learned a huge amount from the experience. So, I'm still not sure that paying someone might, at times, be worthwhile if you can afford it and if you don't have a beta reader you feel you can trust.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 01:17 AM

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 01:42 AM

It doesn't have anything to do with being a scam, or with the quality of the editor. It has to do with publishers needing writers who don't need such hired editors.

If you can't do the same work for yourself that the hired editor is going to do for you, how can you possibly do that same work after a publisher buys the book?

Easy, you learn. I don't understand the mentality that says a writer must just BE...that you can't learn, study, and grow. I don't understand why it's wrong to do what's necessary to learn the trade and become skilled at it. In my career as a nurse it would be easy for me to say money always flows to the nurse, not from the nurse. But I had to pay in order to learn the ins and outs of being a nurse, to make it my profession. Writing for publication is also a profession.

I'm sure there are those who are simply born with some innate sense and ability to write stellar, grammatically perfect prose. But they are in the minority and for the rest of us, there is a learning curve. We aren't born professional writers, we become one through learning, education, practice, feedback, and advice. There are costs attached to this process, whether they be time, money, obligations, or some combination of these. What works for one, may not work for another. There is no one right way to do it.

Paying anyone else to do anything connected with writing and editing just means the writer never learns how to do the essential parets of writing needed to be a good writer that publisher can expect to deliver quality writing, and quality editing, on time.

This is an example of one of those comments that rankles people. You are saying that anyone who has ever paid someone anything connected with writing and editing will be a hapless, crappy writer. Since I am someone who has paid, you're calling me a crappy writer. But the six novels I've sold since paying for that help (not to mention the more than 200 articles I sold when I was freelancing) are proof that you are wrong.

Try to see some of the color in the world instead of painting everything black and white.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 01:51 AM

I think the question is being forgotten here. It's not whether editors are good or not, it's whether it's better than a good beta reader.

And the definitive answer is ..... it depends.

For those of you using betas, what defines a "good" beta reader? How do you assess the abilities and skills of your betas? Are you using them simply as general readers who can comment on plot, overall flow, etc., or are you looking for betas who can spot more specific writing flaws, things like excessive exposition, passive voice, POV problems, etc? How technical are your betas?

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

Maxinquaye

11-30-2009, 02:06 AM

Try to see some of the color in the world instead of painting everything black and white.

I won't get into this argument, but this is a good point we all need to remember. The UK publishing industry works slightly different than the US one, and advice regarding the situation in the US is not always compatible with the situation in the UK.

One thing that strikes me when researching is for instance the different ways that literary agents handle queries. In the US it is customary for agents to get a query with say the first 5 pages by email. In the UK it seems customary for the agents to expect the first 3 chapters together with the query, and the query must often go by snail mail.

That is just one of the apparent differences I've observed.

MY instinct is to answer no to the OP:s question, but it's just that - instinct. And I still think my points are valid, even in the UK.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 02:28 AM

The OP was asking for people's thoughts, so there is no definitive answer.

Um, yeah. That was my point.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 02:34 AM

Because my beta readers didn't edit my ms, they gave suggestions about what worked and what didn't. I took some and left the rest.

You said they "tore it up." That sounds like more than just suggestions to me.

But "suggestions" is what you get from a beta or a paid expert because ultimately, no one but you can decide which advice to accept and which to reject. So I guess I still don't see how letting a beta make suggestions is "doing it yourself" and having a paid expert make suggestions isn't.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 02:36 AM

You said they "tore it up." That sounds like more than just suggestions to me.

But "suggestions" is what you get from a beta or a paid expert because ultimately, no one but you can decide which advice to accept and which to reject. So I guess I still don't see how letting a beta make suggestions is "doing it yourself" and having a paid expert make suggestions isn't.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)
my bold.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 02:53 AM

Mine too, so I don't get why you're attacking me.

I'm not attacking you, I'm debating the points you have made. (Trust me, if I was attacking you, you'd know it.;)) I figured you didn't get the irony in my definitive/depends post since you posted right afterward quoting my post and saying there is no definitive answer -- which is what I'd just said. So either you were merely repeating what I'd said or contradicting it. I guessed contradicting. Hence my "duh, yeah" post --I was explaining the irony. If I misunderstood the purpose of your post, my apologies.

As for other posts, I'm puzzled by the vehement prejudice some have toward paying someone to help you learn the craft of writing. Your "doing it myself" reasoning doesn't make sense to me -- I don't see the difference in soliciting advice for free versus soliciting it for money when it comes to "doing it yourself." So I'm trying to better understand it. I thought that's what this thread was about -- opinions on whether a beta is better than a paid critiquer. You clearly feel the beta is better, which is fine, but the reason you give for it seems illogical to me.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

timewaster

11-30-2009, 03:06 AM

Somewhere along the way my point appears to have been overlooked.
To restate it: the editor I paid gave me insights that were a quantum level above the (very competent) critique group and the other beta readers that had read the novel.

I think this is the point. Some of us get lucky and get our first decent criique from a pro editor prior to publication. If the cards don't fall your way it is hard to get that quality feedback. You can get that from some MA or MFA courses( which you pay for), you might get lucky and have a very talented crit group of published writers or pro editors, you might get it here, but if not, then paying for reputable editorial feedback is just another way of learning to write. The mantra that money flows to the author is fine if you are writing at publishable standard there is no shame in paying for tutoring and good editing is essentially that. ( I live in he UK so it might be different here)

timewaster

11-30-2009, 03:22 AM

No, I wouldn't go with this whether they are legit or not.

I think it would be better to find a writer's critique circle or a few beta readers. I always get nervous when I see stuff like this. As someone else mentioned above, if you're paying you might not get as honest an answer on your ms as someone that is doing it for the love.

I don't get this at all. I am paid to lecture in creative writing at uni - why would this make me dishonest? It merely ensures that I am remunerated for the time involved in critiquing and teaching. Were I to have worked as a paid critiquer the process would have been the same. The punter is paying for my time and my experience - that to me is a fair transaction. Why shouldn't I be paid for that - am I less worthy than an electrician or a plumber because I work in a different industry? OTOH you would pay for piano or drawing lessons - good editing is a lesson - a new way of looking at writing.

K.L. Townsend

11-30-2009, 03:33 AM

I don't get this at all. I am paid to lecture in creative writing at uni - why would this make me dishonest? It merely ensures that I am remunerated for the time involved in critiquing and teaching. Were I to have worked as a paid critiquer the process would have been the same. The punter is paying for my time and my experience - that to me is a fair transaction. Why shouldn't I be paid for that - am I less worthy than an electrician or a plumber because I work in a different industry? OTOH you would pay for piano or drawing lessons - good editing is a lesson - a new way of looking at writing.

If I'm not being clear, I apologize, but I believe you have misunderstood me.

Not once did I say or imply that if you are a professor or an editor that you are dishonest.

What I am saying is that there have been cases where people are more invested in making money than providing editing for the person paying. So, the person paying for the service might not be getting what they paid for.

As far as how many times this happens versus success, I don't know.

timewaster

11-30-2009, 03:44 AM

If I'm not being clear, I apologize, but I believe you have misunderstood me.

Not once did I say or imply that if you are a professor or an editor that you are dishonest.

What I am saying is that there have been cases where people are more invested in making money than providing editing for the person paying. So, the person paying for the service might not be getting what they paid for.

As far as how many times this happens versus success, I don't know.
Yes, there are scams, but the mere fact that you have to pay for a service does not make it a scam. I don't know how many reputable places there are either, however there are some and if I had the money and I actually wanted some expert advice on how to make a mss stronger, I wouldn't assume any help I paid for would necessarily be worthless.

I have read loads of advice that states 'money flows to the author' but that kind of depends - especially in this market - sometimes, as my Granny says, you have to speculate to accumulate : )

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 03:44 AM

timewaster

11-30-2009, 03:54 AM

I think my objection to paying comes from, "Why pay for something you can get for free?"

Take tt42 for instance. When she reads my stuff she does it for the love of writing. I think if I paid a professional (not that she isn't, but you know what I mean) there would be no emotional investment or at least not the same kind. They wouldn't understand what I was trying to do with the book.

I don't know. I can't exactly articulate my aversion. All I know is that I don't like the idea.

Well you knoe that's fine if you have found someone operating at the right leve and it is a reciprocal arrangement. I have writer friends I can swap mss with but not everyone is so fortunate and as I pay for all kinds of services in my life - of a much more intimate nature - eyebrow threading anybody? I would have no problem in paying for a pro opinion. There are some good places here which I think would give high quality feedback - you pay your money you get detailed and informed opinion much like real editorial feedback only more comprehensive. I don't much want emotional investment I want coherent percpetive feedback.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:01 AM

Even before I met her I wouldn't have dreamed of paying for a professional editor though. I don't want someone else to edit my work. I want to be capable of doing that myself.

Yes, I know on publication you have to go through edits but the author has the final say on many of those, and you won't even get a look-in with many agents and publishing houses unless your manuscript is polished to a sparkle. It's not good enough for me to be told "This doesn't work." I want to know why it doesn't work. I want to know how to fix it. And I want to master those techniques myself, otherwise the book won't feel like my own.

So yes, while tt42 reads my work, she says, "Why does so-and-so do this?" rather than, "Here's how to fix it." I don't want to know how she would fix it. I just want to know how the book reads to her. If there's a disconnect between my vision and what she sees, the problem is mine. And so is the solution.

In paying for someone else to do something for you, you're missing out on the pleasure of mastering that part of the writing business yourself. Sure, you could say that about me paying for work to be done around the house. But I'm not a sparky or a chippy or a painter/decorator. Those aren't my passions.

If I say, "My passion is writing," and then delegate a chunk of that work to someone else, even for money, especially for money, I feel like a liar and a fraud. So I don't do it.

Paying someone else to fix my book doesn't teach me how to write a better book. It teaches me how to delegate.

IdiotsRUs

11-30-2009, 04:07 AM

Paying someone else to fix my book doesn't teach me how to write a better book. It teaches me how to delegate.

Good editors don't do it for you

They suggest ( oaky, apart from maybe grammar etc). They say 'Have you though that if you did this it would work better?' They say 'This scene does little to move the plot / characters forward, are you sure it's necessary' etc.

A good editor works with you and teaches you how to make things better on your own.

timewaster

11-30-2009, 04:13 AM

[

Paying someone else to fix my book doesn't teach me how to write a better book. It teaches me how to delegate.[/QUOTE]

I don't that anyone can tell you what to do to fix your book. I think a good editor asks questions and points out weaknesses. Sure, as a tutor or critiquer I might suggest solutions ,but the book remains the author's just as it does when a publishing house edits. I have learned what I know from editorial discussions - from other people's viewpoints forcing me to reassess my own.How else do you learn?
The problem is that many people write as well as they can and when they get rejected they can't see why. They research how to submit and how to fulful guidelines but sometimes it takes another eye to point out those things they can't see. If you can find that eye peering out of the face of you husband, best friend or crit group colleague - fabulous - if not then where do you go? Sometimes paying for expertise is a reasonable response just so long as you can be sure that you will get something of a reasonable standard in return. That said I'm sure there are scammers around - you just have to research the decent ones.

Toothpaste

11-30-2009, 04:22 AM

I think Wayne (and I'm sorry to say, Scarlett you too) you may be confused as to what an editor does. Yes there are some, and these are the ones I'm not as huge a fan of, who go through an MS and fix the grammar and spelling and hand it back, but that's not what we're talking about.

The kind of editors we are talking about do the exact same thing as your beta readers. They read the MS and offer suggestions, they ask questions. They don't just sit down and "fix" your MS for you. I agree, that's silly. But they don't do that. I've seen services that offer a written critique along with as many follow up telephone conversations as the writer wants. It's a dialogue, and yes, it is a learning experience.

Now, then the question might be: "Well since they do the same thing as betas, why pay someone to do that?" And the answer that follows is if you are lucky enough not to have to pay someone, to have someone in your life who wants to help, and who has the talent and the knowledge to be able to help, then you are very very lucky (like SP is with tt42 and I am with my parents and a couple friends and Wayne you are with your beta readers). But not everyone has such beta readers and in that case, what the heck is wrong with them paying for such a service, if they can afford it and have done the research?

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:28 AM

I think Wayne (and I'm sorry to say, Scarlett you too) you may be confused as to what an editor does.No, I'm not confused at all. I know exactly what an editor does.The kind of editors we are talking about do the exact same thing as your beta readers.Which is why I see no point in paying for what we can come by for free.Now, then the question might be: "Well since they do the same thing as betas, why pay someone to do that?" And the answer that follows is if you are lucky enough not to have to pay someone, to have someone in your life who wants to help, and who has the talent and the knowledge to be able to help, then you are very very lucky (like SP is with tt42 and I am with my parents and a couple friends and Wayne you are with your beta readers). But not everyone has such beta readers and in that case, what the heck is wrong with them paying for such a service, if they can afford it and have done the research?Luck has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. I worked to get where I am. If I hadn't, tt42 wouldn't take the time to read my stuff.

Honestly. Very little angers me more than being told I'm lucky for being where I am and having what I have.

Lori didn't just magically appear in my life. I drew her there through striving to improve. If I hadn't worked to get where I am, she wouldn't have responded to whatever it was in me she admired. I would still be the shitty little hack I was a few years ago and our unholy alliance would never have developed.

Okay. After that slight derail, as you were. :)

IdiotsRUs

11-30-2009, 04:33 AM

Wait, so people who haven't got a good beta haven't worked hard enough?

ETA: Wayne, most of the writing courses I've seen don't go through an existing WIP to look for ways to improve. They teach specific skills yes, but they don't usually read your current MS

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:34 AM

I don't remember saying that.

But I refuse to put tt42 down to just being 'lucky'.

As the saying goes, "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

IdiotsRUs

11-30-2009, 04:36 AM

*takes offence* *flounc-* Oh, wait :D

I don't remember saying that.

It looks that way to me.

As the saying goes, "The harder I work, the luckier I get."
I agree with that. But working hard doesn't mean you'll find your perfect beta.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:38 AM

If you want to take offence, you need the next thread along. I'm currently receiving insults by reps, PMs and headless teddy bears nailed to my front door.

Maxinquaye

11-30-2009, 04:38 AM

There's a lot of intuitive skills in writing that you don't get taught in writing courses - which i think is hard to teach in writing courses.

I think, and that's my view, that a lot of the writing skills is only achievable by doing. You learn by doing in this field. There's no problem of having betas (or paid editors then) but if you do not have an intuitive feel for what may be wrong, and can see that when someone points it out to you, then paying for it won't help at all.

thethinker42

11-30-2009, 04:38 AM

Luck has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. I worked to get where I am. If I hadn't, tt42 wouldn't take the time to read my stuff.

This.

Honestly. Very little angers me more than being told I'm lucky for being where I am and having what I have.

Amen. I keep hearing that word in relation to our writing partnership and various other aspects of my writing career. It's a different four-lettered word ending in "k". "Work". What did you think I meant?

Lori didn't just magically appear in my life. I drew her there through striving to improve. If I hadn't worked to get where I am, she wouldn't have responded to whatever it was in me she admired. I would still be the shitty little hack I was a few years ago and our unholy alliance would never have developed.

Likewise. Even if SP wasn't my writing partner, I'm not paying someone to do what a skilled, knowledgeable beta reader can do. I have two betas besides SP that are a) readers, b) educated, c) know WTF they're doing, and d) have no qualms about telling me if something sucks. I've also had some betas that give me comments that are MADE of WTF. In fact, I've had editors give me comments that are made of WTF.

I see nothing wrong with paying for an editor/literary consultant if you feel it'll help you. For me, even without my trio of slaves beta readers/writing partner, I've never felt the need to pay someone to look at my work. Different strokes.

IdiotsRUs

11-30-2009, 04:40 AM

If you want to take offence, you need the next thread along. I'm currently receiving insults by reps, PMs and headless teddy bears nailed to my front door.

I wasn't taking offence you daft tart. :D

Different strokes.

This. I cannot presume to know what happens in another persons life. If, for whatever reason, someone can't get a good beta, or the betas they have are good, just not quite good enough, who are we to stop them paying someone? It doesn't make them any less committed.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 04:40 AM

In paying for someone else to do something for you, you're missing out on the pleasure of mastering that part of the writing business yourself. Sure, you could say that about me paying for work to be done around the house. But I'm not a sparky or a chippy or a painter/decorator. Those aren't my passions.

If I say, "My passion is writing," and then delegate a chunk of that work to someone else, even for money, especially for money, I feel like a liar and a fraud. So I don't do it.

Paying someone else to fix my book doesn't teach me how to write a better book. It teaches me how to delegate.

Why should learning the profession of writing be different from learning any other profession? Did having someone else explain and demonstrate to me how to start an IV take away from the pride I feel at now being an expert at it? Hell, no. But I had a learning curve and I received both paid and free help in learning this skill (assuming that school tuition constitutes "paid" help).

Does a surgeon feel like a fraud because he has to have someone show him how to do an operation before he can master it himself? Is an expert auto mechanic a liar because at one time he had someone else show him how to fix an engine? Is a painter a fraud because she once paid someone to teach her the mechanics, materials, and varying techniques involved in the art?

Paying someone to go over my writing and teach me what works, what doesn't, what tools I can try, what I'm good at, and what I don't quite get yet isn't delegation, it's learning. It's working at improving my craft, my profession. If the best (or perhaps only) option for me to obtain that help is by paying someone, why is that wrong, particularly if it gets me someone with a higher level of knowledge/talent/experience in the field than using a free helper would?

Beth

thethinker42

11-30-2009, 04:40 AM

But I refuse to put tt42 down to just being 'lucky'.

As the saying goes, "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Wait...are we talking good luck or bad luck here?

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:43 AM

I wasn't taking offence you daft tart. :DI demand you take offence!

timewaster

11-30-2009, 04:43 AM

I think the job of a good writing tutor is to help you look at your work in a new light, to talk about what you are trying to do and make informed suggestions about things you might try. If your intuition is working well enough to get published without help - great- otherwise I think a good tutor helps hone your intuition.

IdiotsRUs

11-30-2009, 04:44 AM

If you take a good writing course, wouldn't you be able to write a ms that gets the attention of an in-house editor?

Depends what you get from it. You may avoid some mistakes from that course and fall headlong into another. You may find trial and error works better for you as a teaching aid. Writing courses don't guarantee anything. Of course neither does an editor.

But they fulfil two separate ( if overlapping at points)functions.

I demand you take offence!

Shan't, so there. Nyah, nyah, nyah

colealpaugh

11-30-2009, 04:50 AM

Luck has nothing to do with it.

There's a slight chance you took that the wrong way. Most lurkers to your relationship with Lori would consider you very fortunate, especially those who've wasted time with lousy betas. Unless you equate it with something like finding a good spouse because you've struggled to get your phD to attract the finest mate. But I bet you two just clicked.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:52 AM

Actually it's a lot more base than that. I sent her some photos of Joaquin Phoenix and she just kinda stuck around.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 04:52 AM

I don't have to pay an editor, my brother is an editor. I sent him one chapter a few months ago and his suggestion? "A little less purple would work better"

It's great that you have an editor in the family but not everyone does. I'd wager most people don't. And I'm not sure I understand how that addresses the issue of whether paid advice or beta advice is better.

By do it myself, I meant do the work myself.

I don't think anyone here has suggested anything other than the writers doing the work. But what difference does it make if you use free advice or paid advice to do the work?

As I said in a PP, I have no problem with people paying an editor, but it does call the question: If you need that much help, and it costs thousands of dollars, Why not take a writing course?

Paying someone who knows their stuff to critique your ms IS a writing course, one where you get individualized attention. I have no idea how much it costs for these services today but my philosophy on the whole cost issue is that I want to excel in my profession, to be the best that I can be. And I'm worth whatever investment I have to make in myself and that profession to achieve that goal.

Beth

ChaosTitan

11-30-2009, 04:53 AM

Honestly. Very little angers me more than being told I'm lucky for being where I am and having what I have.

Someone telling you you're lucky to have Lori as your writing partner is not the same thing as saying you have her because of luck. The latter implies no work on your part; the former implies you have something of value that not everyone else has.

This. I cannot presume to know what happens in another persons life. If, for whatever reason, someone can't get a good beta, or the betas they have are good, just not quite good enough, who are we to stop them paying someone? It doesn't make them any less committed.

This. Especially the last sentence.

If you take a good writing course, wouldn't you be able to write a ms that gets the attention of an in-house editor?

No. I took two writing courses in college, and I can honestly say I can't recall a single thing about either class. It all depends on what level you are at now, what you need from the class, and what the class actually offers you.

colealpaugh

11-30-2009, 04:57 AM

Actually it's a lot more base than that. I sent her some photos of Joaquin Phoenix and she just kinda stuck around.

Yeah, well, I send Toothpaste lots of naked pictures, but she still doesn't like me.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 04:59 AM

James Purefoy's more her bag, man. (And mine:e2brows:).

Toothpaste

11-30-2009, 05:07 AM

mmmmm. . . . purefoy . . .

Wayne. You keep suggesting writing courses but you are comparing apples with oranges. The issue we are currently addressing if finding a beta reader for you work, whether it be someone who you know (and I get what you mean Scarlet, luck was probably the wrong word, sorry) or someone you pay. The question as to "well why don't they just take a writing course then" is odd because I could ask the same thing of you, why instead of working with betas didn't you just take a writing course?

I think you're trying to compare the payment aspect again, but it isn't about the money, it's about the role the person plays. Someone paying such an editor is seeking the same kind of feedback you are seeking from your beta. Unless of course you are saying, "If I had the money I'd take a writing course instead and ditch my beta." But that doesn't make sense either. You learn very different things from the two, and what's more are requesting two very different things.

I think I'm a pretty good writer. Sure I can always learn more, but I'm at a stage in my writing where I really don't want to take a writing course. For me, right now, I learn more in doing. And I learn more in going back and forth with a beta reader looking at my work. And that's what the person seeking paid editorial services is also looking for.

Remember, again, a beta reader and an editor (as we are using the term) are the exact same thing, except you pay the editor for their services.

Swordswoman

11-30-2009, 05:09 AM

Sorry to be late to the party, but I think Toothpaste is right to try some clarification here, and my experience may possibly help.

As I understand the thread title and OP's question, the question is about Literary Consultancies in the UK.
It is not about Editing Services (which are totally different), nor is it about Consultancies in the US (which are totally different). A huge percentage of the arguments here (eg along the lines of 'you have to learn to edit yourself') are thus completely irrelevant. Waylander and aruna among others have already pointed this out several times, but still they're coming in.

Of course we're all offering opinions, and some of us are even backing them up with arguments, but some of us are also actually speaking from experience. It's up to the OP, of course, but personally if I wanted to know what publishing was like I'd ask someone who'd been published rather than someone who just reads books. In the same way, if I wanted to know about Literary Consultancies in the UK, I'd probably pay rather more attention to those who've actually experienced them - like aruna and Waylander, for instance.

Out of those with actual experience, the answer seems overwhelmingly to be positive.

I'm another of them.

I used a Literary Consultancy Service, and had much the same result as aruna. I had a very useful critique, was put straight on to a top agent and got my book deal within weeks. Yes, I might have got there without the Service, but I don't know that - nor do I know how long it would have taken.

They're not for everyone. Certainly don't go near one if you actually need editing for basics, because a) Consultancies don't provide that, and b) you'll just be paying for someone to tell you what you already know, eg learn some grammar. If you already know your ms isn't right, then yes of course use beta readers to tell you what's wrong with it. Use them anyway even to confirm your opinion that it isn't right. Always use the free options first - as everyone here has already said.

But you may have beta readers who disagree with each other. You may not have very good ones. You may know what's wrong, but not how to put it right. You may even think you have a perfect ms but need (as someone has already said) a professional to tell you so before you risk scuppering your chances by sending it out when it's not ready. These are all times to think of using a professional service, and having someone properly qualified critique your work - someone either multi-pubbed with a major mainstream publisher, or with major industry editing experience, or both.

There's another reason for considering it, and that's this. In the UK, the top three Literary Consultancies (and I think some others) are all scouts for major agencies. Not only does this mean they know exactly what agents are looking for right now, but which ones are right for your book. They'll advise you accordingly - but if your book is really, really ready and good enough (in their opinion) then they'll do more. They'll get it on the desk of that right agent with a recommendation the agent will take very seriously indeed.

That's really why I did it, and it's exactly what happened. No query hell, no slushpile, no stack of rejections, just my book smack on the right desk and a few days later The Call. To me, that was worth it.

Because the 'it' we're talking about is your book. I honestly thought my book was worth investing in - and I'm very relieved to find I was right. Yes, I spent money on it - but as aruna has said, I do not see why this makes people so angry. Writers do pay for professional help sometimes, and one of the most dogmatic 'no's in this thread comes from someone who actually does presentations at workshops which writers have paid to attend. Paying a consultancy is no different from paying a workshop or a writers' class, and it is hard to understand the tone of posts which suggest those of us who have paid money have in some way transgressed.

There is perhaps a moral objection under the surface, and with this I have to say I sympathise. I feel guilty that I was able to afford this when not everyone can. It seems wrong that those who pay should have a fast-track over those who can't. All I'd say is that I was far from rich, and had indeed been unemployed for some time. I spent the very, very last of my savings on that service, and went without a lot of things to do it. The only new clothes I bought in two years were tights - and once a supermarket tee-shirt! But in seeking publication I was expecting a publisher to have enough faith in my book to risk a heck of a lot of money on it, so it still doesn't seem to me unreasonable that I needed to show the same faith myself.

There is perhaps a slight stigma to having 'Had Help' to get published, which is why so few writers note it in their acknowledgements - when if you check out some of the links posted you'll see there are a great many pubbed writers who perhaps ought to have done. I've included it in my own acknowledgements because I want to be honest - and because even if it's embarrassing for me, it might, just might, help someone else.

That's also why i'm posting here, and I believe it's why aruna still writes about her experiences, despite the rabid 'No!'s that greet her long and carefully thought-out accounts of her first-hand experience.

If it doesn't help, then fine. The OP must make up their own mind, but if they read the posts of those with actual experience then at least the decision will be an informed one.

Louise

colealpaugh

11-30-2009, 05:16 AM

This is starting to feel personal, and I don't like it.

You're avatar is cool, Wayne. And Purefoy reminds me of that guy Booger from Revenge of the Nerds.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 05:19 AM

Does a surgeon feel like a fraud because he has to have someone show him how to do an operation before he can master it himself? Is an expert auto mechanic a liar because at one time he had someone else show him how to fix an engine? Is a painter a fraud because she once paid someone to teach her the mechanics, materials, and varying techniques involved in the art?I wouldn't know, given that I was clearly speaking for myself.If the best (or perhaps only) option for me to obtain that help is by paying someone, why is that wrong, particularly if it gets me someone with a higher level of knowledge/talent/experience in the field than using a free helper would?Fine, pay an editor if you want, if that makes you happy.

I'm happy with my 'free helper' who actually has a higher level of knowledge/talent/experience than many others in the field, even other published writers.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 05:20 AM

You're avatar is cool, Wayne. And Purefoy reminds me of that guy Booger from Revenge of the Nerds.Right, that does it. You. Outside. Now.

Toothpaste

11-30-2009, 05:54 AM

The way this is being explained to me, this is just a one on one writing course. So I don't think my question was stupid at all.

Why don't I take a writing course instead of working with beta readers $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

A writing course isn't like working with betas at all. It is totally different, resulting in a totally different goal. This is the thing I don't think you have quite understood. And dude, when did I call your question stupid exactly?

The way I see it, you don't quite understand, just like you didn't quite understand what kind of editorial service we were talking about in the first place until it was explained. That is nothing to be ashamed of, if you don't understand something, someone explains it and then you do. At least, that's my experience.

I'll try again. Taking a writing course is awesome, but it isn't the same thing as working with a beta reader. A beta reader (or editor) looks over one particular MS and tries to help you improve that. A writing course takes you on a more general journey, where you have many other assignments and you learn about many different styles etc. They both have value, but they are both quite different from each other.

So that is why a person with the money to spend, might choose to work with an editor over taking a writing course.

In general Wayne you are reacting very strongly to points being made in this thread that aren't actually being directed to you (well some of mine have been, but those are the exception), and I think maybe you should just take a step back and realise no one is dissing the way you do things. In fact everyone has said, "Awesome, glad you have great beta readers, now other people . . ." and have moved on from you as the central topic. Seriously, no one is trying to change the way you do things, or talk down to you.

third person

11-30-2009, 06:05 AM

Paying someone who knows their stuff to critique your ms IS a writing course, one where you get individualized attention.

really? so you'd just believe whatever a stranger said about your stuff once they had your money? you do know what a con is, right?

ChaosTitan

11-30-2009, 06:13 AM

really? so you'd just believe whatever a stranger said about your stuff once they had your money? you do know what a con is, right?

third person, what exactly is the point of your post? cwfgal's posts in this thread clearly show she is coming at this topic from experience, and that she is more than intelligent enough to not fall for a scam editor.

Albannach

11-30-2009, 06:24 AM

Actually, no, I didn't know that was what we were talking about.

I've said more then once that I have no problem with other people doing that. But why don't they take a writing course? I don't get that.
So you're saying if one takes a writing course, one never again needs a beta reader or someone to serve that purpose.

I beg to differ.

Edit: And sorry, but the contention from some people that all editors are scams just isn't worth discussing. There are some well-respected ones out there. Dave King comes immediately to mind. (Not a recommendation since I can't make one, but he's kind of widely known considering being one of the authors of Self-Editing for the Fiction Writer)

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 06:28 AM

So you're saying if one takes a writing course, one never again needs a beta reader or someone to serve that purpose.

I beg to differ.No, he's really not saying that at all.

Wayne's perfectly capable of saying what he wants without anyone else putting words in his mouth or imputing wrong motives.

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 06:32 AM

A writing course isn't like working with betas at all. It is totally different, resulting in a totally different goal. This is the thing I don't think you have quite understood. And dude, when did I call your question stupid exactly?

The way I see it, you don't quite understand, just like you didn't quite understand what kind of editorial service we were talking about in the first place until it was explained. That is nothing to be ashamed of, if you don't understand something, someone explains it and then you do. At least, that's my experience.

I'll try again. Taking a writing course is awesome, but it isn't the same thing as working with a beta reader. A beta reader (or editor) looks over one particular MS and tries to help you improve that. A writing course takes you on a more general journey, where you have many other assignments and you learn about many different styles etc. They both have value, but they are both quite different from each other.

So that is why a person with the money to spend, might choose to work with an editor over taking a writing course.

In general Wayne you are reacting very strongly to points being made in this thread that aren't actually being directed to you (well some of mine have been, but those are the exception), and I think maybe you should just take a step back and realise no one is dissing the way you do things. In fact everyone has said, "Awesome, glad you have great beta readers, now other people . . ." and have moved on from you as the central topic. Seriously, no one is trying to change the way you do things, or talk down to you.

You took my post the wrong way, maybe I wasn't clear. I meant that the editor/consultant thing is the same as a writing course, except one on one. Also, I have nothing to feel ashamed of because I was asking a question, it was read or written wrong.

K.L. Townsend

11-30-2009, 06:39 AM

For the most part, I have really enjoyed this conversation and what people have had to offer from their different perspectives. So I thank you all for sharing your experiences and opinions.

Things are getting a bit heated though, so I hope we can cool down and not take it personally :(

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 06:40 AM

I'm done with ths thread. I'm going to delete all my comments, so please keep me out of thiis discussion. Albannach, stop bandwagoning. I didn't say that and you know it.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 06:52 AM

[QUOTE]As I said in a more recent post, I didn't know this was a tutorship thing.

I saw that, after my last post to you.

As I've said, I don't have a problem with other people doing it.

Why don't you pick on someone who is saying they do have a problem with it?

You made it clear that you do have a problem with it for yourself. You spoke pretty vehemently against it and said you would never do it. And that is fine. I have no issue with your personal decision; it's yours and everyone is entitled to their own. My questions to you were directed toward the reason you gave for making that decision because you made some statements that seemed contradictory and illogical to me. If trying to explore and understand the logic you used to make your decision is "picking on you," my apologies.

This is starting to feel personal, and I don't like it.

Well, I guess you need to deal with your feelings, then. I don't know you and the discussion here isn't about you, anymore than it's about me. It's about the topic of betas versus paid consultants and I'm responding to things you said. Disagreeing with someone's opinion, asking someone to clarify their opinion, or expressing an alternate one, isn't a personal attack, it's debate and intellectual discourse. If you don't feel comfortable being a part of the discussion or defending your positions, then stop posting on this topic and move on. But I hope you'll hang in there. Everyone's thoughts and opinions have value.

Peace.

Beth

Toothpaste

11-30-2009, 07:11 AM

You took my post the wrong way, maybe I wasn't clear. I meant that the editor/consultant thing is the same as a writing course, except one on one. Also, I have nothing to feel ashamed of because I was asking a question, it was read or written wrong.

I never said you should feel ashamed. When did I say that? You were the one that said I'd said your question was stupid when I didn't say that either.

And again an editor is NOT the same thing even as a private one on one tutorial, unless that one on one tutorial is just over one MS. Maybe we simply have a semantical problem here, but the writing courses I know address a greater scope than just one MS. An editor/consultant only works on the one MS with the author. They also aren't there to teach in the typical sense of the word. They are there to offer advice and ask questions, which may then lead the author to learn something. But they aren't saying, "And this is what a such and such is." It is a much more professional, evenly based power structure relationship.

At any rate. My simple point was one does not simply say to oneself, "Well since I'm paying for an editor I might as well just take a writing course." Because, as I said before, they are two very different things. A beta reader is not the same thing as a writing course either, is it? And we are comparing these consultants directly to beta readers. We are saying they are the same thing, except you pay the editor.

In the definition we are using for editor in this thread, this is the equation:

beta = editor

The difference is you pay an editor money. You pay a beta reader often in a reciprocal agreement.

Yes you learn both from a beta and a writing course. But you learn different things. That's the point I still think you are missing. Not that it really matters that much, but you asked a question as to why wouldn't someone just take a writing course then, and I don't feel like you've yet to understand my answer.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 07:14 AM

really? so you'd just believe whatever a stranger said about your stuff once they had your money? you do know what a con is, right?

Clearly you haven't read any of my other posts in this topic. Do so and I think you'll get the answers to your questions, assuming that you really want them. Somehow I suspect that's not the case.

Beth

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 07:21 AM

That is nothing to be ashamed of, if you don't understand something, someone explains it and then you do. At least, that's my experience.
.

I never said you should feel ashamed. When did I say that? .
I was referring to this. I didn't say that you said I should be ashamed of anything.

Thank you for explaining it, which is why I asked the question. I'm never ashamed to ask a question.

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 07:22 AM

[QUOTE=Wayne K;4313589]

I saw that, after my last post to you.

You made it clear that you do have a problem with it for yourself. You spoke pretty vehemently against it and said you would never do it. And that is fine. I have no issue with your personal decision; it's yours and everyone is entitled to their own. My questions to you were directed toward the reason you gave for making that decision because you made some statements that seemed contradictory and illogical to me. If trying to explore and understand the logic you used to make your decision is "picking on you," my apologies.

Well, I guess you need to deal with your feelings, then. I don't know you and the discussion here isn't about you, anymore than it's about me. It's about the topic of betas versus paid consultants and I'm responding to things you said. Disagreeing with someone's opinion, asking someone to clarify their opinion, or expressing an alternate one, isn't a personal attack, it's debate and intellectual discourse. If you don't feel comfortable being a part of the discussion or defending your positions, then stop posting on this topic and move on. But I hope you'll hang in there. Everyone's thoughts and opinions have value.

Peace.

Beth
I never spoke Vehemently" against it, please.

I also don't have to defend an "Opinion"

Funny you haven't quoted anyone besides me here. That's the personal part. And some of them were vehement, shit they were 100% against it. Why me and not Uncle Jim? Why me and not SP? Why me and not the other twenty people who don't agree with you?

That is personal because you've quoted me close to ten times now.

cwfgal

11-30-2009, 07:46 AM

[QUOTE]

I also don't have to defend an "Opinion"

Never said you did. I said that if people ask you to it's not a personal attack.

Funny you haven't quoted anyone besides me here. That's the personal part. And some of them were vehement, shit they were 100% against it. Why me and not Uncle Jim? Why me and not SP? Why me and not the other twenty people who don't agree with you?

You might want to go back and reread the thread. I did quote others, including SP.

That is personal because you've quoted me close to ten times now.

Ditto. So does that mean you are waging a personal attack on me??? Or is it possible we were engaging in a debate where quoting the respective comments helps to keep the topics and issues clear?

Sorry, I'd like to help you out and be the big bad bully you think I am, but it's simply not true.

Beth

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 07:59 AM

Now you're just boring me. Bye.

ChaosTitan

11-30-2009, 08:02 AM

Maybe everyone should step back for the night? Let the thread cool?

Cliff Face

11-30-2009, 08:13 AM

My own view on paying for a private editor was that, "Money flow towards the writer" which was a quote from Uncle Jim's thread. Today I remembered another quote from that thread which I'll paraphrase. "If it works for you, break any rule you want."

So I think my opinion is pretty much moot, considering both pieces of advice.

As for the debate over paid editor vs favour-driven betas, I think I'd prefer to spend my time and not my money, if only because I don't have money to spend.

And maybe I should add the words "Just my opinion" to the top of my sig, to avoid any confusion ;).

Oh, and SP - you said earlier that the thing which pisses you off the most is being told you're lucky to have what you have. I can't remember much of my original post about your and Lori's relationship, but the main point I remember was that I was jealous. If I said you were lucky, sorry, no offence meant, but as far as I'm concerned my jealousy is a sign of respect, albeit a slobbering kind.

scarletpeaches

11-30-2009, 08:15 AM

Not at all, Cliff Face. I got a bit heated myself and I think it was Toothpaste I quoted.

Try as I might, I can't honestly be offended by her anyway, due to the Purefoy photos she's sent. I know, I know. But I'm easily bought.

If you want to slobber all over my unholy alliance, aim at Lori please. :D

Cliff Face

11-30-2009, 08:18 AM

Sorry, Lori, blame SP.

*slobbers like a dog in autumn*

Albannach

11-30-2009, 08:20 AM

No, he's really not saying that at all.

Wayne's perfectly capable of saying what he wants without anyone else putting words in his mouth or imputing wrong motives.
Well, that's certainly what it looked like he was saying to me, so I responded to it. I still don't really know what he was saying since I don't see what writing classes have to do with hiring someone for either an editor or a consultant.

And since he's capable of saying what he wants, I'm sure if he wants to argue the point with me--which from the looks of this thread he probably does--he'll do so, of course. But I have no intention of continuing in such a contentious thread.

It seems to me to have all been said.

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Wayne K View Post
Actually, no, I didn't know that was what we were talking about.

I've said more then once that I have no problem with other people doing that. But why don't they take a writing course? I don't get that.

So you're saying if one takes a writing course, one never again needs a beta reader or someone to serve that purpose.

I beg to differ.

Then show me where I said that.

MacAllister

11-30-2009, 08:38 AM

That's damned well enough from both of you. Either use your ignore buttons, or put on your grown-up pants and stop responding to each other.

Wayne K

11-30-2009, 08:47 AM

Sorry Mac. I regretted the post right away, was going to delete it, you beat me to it.

aruna

11-30-2009, 12:42 PM

Thanks for all the reps, folks!

Show me a hired editor who can make a book that perfect, and forget the writer. I want a book written by the editor.

OMG, JAR, this sounds as if you have not read even a word anyone has written! Shall I say it again?

A paid consultant does NOT write the book for you.

Even before I met her I wouldn't have dreamed of paying for a professional editor though. I don't want someone else to edit my work. I want to be capable of doing that myself.

Ditto: see above.

In paying for someone else to do something for you, you're missing out on the pleasure of mastering that part of the writing business yourself. Sure, you could say that about me paying for work to be done around the house. But I'm not a sparky or a chippy or a painter/decorator. Those aren't my passions.
Not at all! After Hilary's suggestions I was thrown into a frenzy of excitement, for I realised just HOW to fix my novel. I spent weeks revising it and they were the best learning curve in my entire writing life!

If I say, "My passion is writing," and then delegate a chunk of that work to someone else, even for money, especially for money, I feel like a liar and a fraud. So I don't do it.
Paying someone else to fix my book doesn't teach me how to write a better book. It teaches me how to delegate.

?????? Who mentioned delegating the writing to someone else?

No, I'm not confused at all. I know exactly what an editor does.Which is why I see no point in paying for what we can come by for free.Luck has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. I worked to get where I am. If I hadn't, tt42 wouldn't take the time to read my stuff.

I think you misunderstood the word lucky, or took it out of context. But this has been explained best here:
Someone telling you you're lucky to have Lori as your writing partner is not the same thing as saying you have her because of luck. The latter implies no work on your part; the former implies you have something of value that not everyone else has.

Different strokes.

Exactly! For me, it's the moral obligation that comes with a "free" beta reader that I object to. The TIME.
As it happens, a very kind AWer (Tom White, of The Book of Matthew) did beta for one of my books, for free. I'm grateful, and his advice was excellent, and he didn't expect me to recriprocate, but I felt I was in his debt nevertheless. That's just me. I hate accepting favours from people outside near family and friends. That was the first and last time I used a beta reader for a full ms. I won't do it again.
I did pay it forward with someone else, but I really could not afford the time spent doing so.
So yes, I prefer to pay for the help with money than with time.
There's no free lunch. Even if you enjoyed your work for SP and vice versa, you gave each other your time. That's great: but it's just not for me, or for some others.
And paying in money is no more fraud than paying in time.

No. I took two writing courses in college, and I can honestly say I can't recall a single thing about either class. It all depends on what level you are at now, what you need from the class, and what the class actually offers you.

I took the first year of an MA last year. I loved going to classes, but mainly for the company. I had a lovely group of writers and I greatly enjoyed meeting my kind of people in meatspace. But that actual course was really a waste of time and money, as far as ms improvement was concernes, since everybody got to discuss their own ms -- which was nice, but no real help in terms of improving my own full ms.

I'm another of them.

I used a Literary Consultancy Service, and had much the same result as aruna. I had a very useful critique, was put straight on to a top agent and got my book deal within weeks. Yes, I might have got there without the Service, but I don't know that - nor do I know how long it would have taken.someone else.

Louise

That's just like what happened to me, with my first book! Out of the blue, The Call came. I was not expecting it at all, as I had not submitted to any agent -- but Hilary had sent my ms straight to an A M Heath agent and that was my fast track into publishing.

Since then I've also gone the slow, painstiaking route with subbing to agents and I know the pain and heartache very well, and the endless waiting -- even with, good, better mss than the first.

Stijn Hommes

11-30-2009, 01:37 PM

aruna

11-30-2009, 01:49 PM

It's hard enough to make money of a novel, adding more costs into the equation isn't going to help. Besides, as many people have already pointed out, betareaders can do this stuff for free and probably do a better job too. my bold

Why probably, and not possibly? Please explain why you think unpaid betas are in substance better than paid consultsants.

As for "adding costs": my investment into bringing my novel to a publishable standard was slightly over £300. Less than four weeks later I had a contract which made me, by my modest standards, very rich indeed.
The investment was well worth it.

I paid not only for the technical help but the connections. This is the way it works in the UK, where most of these consultancies are scouts for big agents.

And the OP is from the UK, so it's good for him to know of this perk.
What happened to him, btw?

Swordswoman

11-30-2009, 02:14 PM

Why probably, and not possibly? Please explain why you think unpaid betas are in substance better than paid consultsants.

Thanks for asking this, aruna - I too would like to know.

It is usually accepted here that writing is not only about inspiration and talent but also about craft. That is the whole principle behind Uncle Jim's thread, for instance. We understand that good writing can in some respects be learned, that in many ways it is a matter of technique and experience.

So why not employ an expert? If writing is a craft, why not go to an experienced craftsman when you want help? If you wanted to learn how to bake a cake, would you ask someone who had read a recipe book or someone who had actually baked several successfully? If you want help in achieving publication, why not ask someone who's been successfully published by a major publishing house, or has assisted many others to do the same thing?

It's not an absolute, of course. There are unpublished writers on this very site giving extremely valuable advice, and I'm equally sure there are many published ones who would be of little use on any manuscripts other than their own. I may well be one myself, which is one reason why I don't work for a consultancy and prefer to beta for free. The standards of the top consultancies are very high, and I'm not convinced I'm good enough.

But I really cannot understand why anyone would assume an unpublished relative novice would probably be better than an experienced and published expert. Put it this way, would you read Uncle Jim's thread with the same respect if he'd never published in his life? Would you really?

As for "adding costs": my investment into bringing my novel to a publishable standard was slightly over £300. Less than four weeks later I had a contract which made me, by my modest standards, very rich indeed.
The investment was well worth it.

Same here. Mine cost more (the ms was very, very long!) but I also got a big enough deal to allow me to write full time without needing any other job. To me, that was worth it.

Louise

waylander

11-30-2009, 02:31 PM

flyingtart

11-30-2009, 03:05 PM

Just want to add my agreement with everything said by Waylander, Swordswoman and Aruna.

Of course a professional will edit better. It's their job!

IceCreamEmpress

12-01-2009, 12:11 AM

Freelance editor here.

If you want a career in writing, it's best to learn how to edit your own work, full stop.

If you want to invest in having someone else edit your work for whatever reason--to get yourself out of a stuck patch, because you aren't interested in focusing on writing as a main career, because you just want to jump-start the whole process--find someone reputable who doesn't make promises they can't keep.

Swordswoman

12-01-2009, 12:26 AM

If you want a career in writing, it's best to learn how to edit your own work, full stop.

As an ex-editor myself, I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, however, this thread is about literary consultancies in the UK, which offer critiques and talent-scouting, not editing.

find someone reputable who doesn't make promises they can't keep.

Fortunately everyone here agrees it's a good idea not to go with scammers. A useful tip is to follow some of the links Waylander gives on the first page of this thread and check out some of the UK companies cited in those threads. None of the reputable ones promise either agenting or publication, and all list not only their credentials and those of their consultants, but also the books published by their clients - all of which are checkable.

It is certainly always recommended that one should do one's homework first...

Louise

IceCreamEmpress

12-01-2009, 01:12 AM

As an ex-editor myself, I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, however, this thread is about literary consultancies in the UK, which offer critiques and talent-scouting, not editing.

I was responding to the discussion that was specifically about editing on this page and the previous couple of pages of the thread, Swordswoman.

the debate over paid editor vs favour-driven betas
betareaders can do this stuff for free
Of course a professional will edit better. It's their job!

&c.

DannySherbet

12-01-2009, 01:16 AM

Thanks to everyone who's replied to my initial post.

There is lots of insight and useful comments on this thread - I just didn't expect it to get quite so heated.

Maybe I should have asked a less controversial question, like 'Is there a god'?

Swordswoman

12-01-2009, 01:36 AM

I was responding to the discussion that was specifically about editing on this page and the previous couple of pages of the thread, Swordswoman.

Fair enough. It's not your fault that the thread's taken the turn it has.

My concern with trying to head off the derail is that there have already been several threads asking about Literary Consultancies (as Waylander pointed out at the start) but in each case any useful advice based on experience has been buried in the knee-jerk 'no's and discussion of subjects which don't apply to these services at all, eg the kind of US editing that actually involves an editor making changes to the manuscript itself.

Waylander's initial suggestion that a single thread on the subject be 'stickied' was a good one, but sadly this one isn't going to be it because of all the hijacking and flaming. Only about one post in ten is actually relevant to the subject in hand.

It's a pity, because the proliferation of these questions suggests there is genuine demand for solid information on the subject. It just doesn't look as if people are going to find the answers here...

Louise

timewaster

12-01-2009, 02:16 AM

It's a pity, because the proliferation of these questions suggests there is genuine demand for solid information on the subject. It just doesn't look as if people are going to find the answers here...

I missed the flames.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what we are talking about and I think this situation in UK and US is different. Further I think people mean different things by 'editing'. The consultancy I almost worked for offered what I would call 'editorial comment', a critique of macro issues like pace and plot and character development - the kind of thing my editor gives me post submission, pre desk editing. I think some more specific details about style and perhaps pointers on repetitive punctuation errors would also have been offered if necessary. I call that 'editing' but no editor I have worked with would correct these things without talking to me first. The kind of newspaper editing where an editor cuts, reorders and alters the original material is not something I have ever come across. I did not know that was done in the book world.
A critique/editorial comment might point out a problem with pace and perhaps suggest possible solutions more usually the solution is in the hands of the writer. It is useful and helps the writer to look at the work in new way.

IdiotsRUs

12-01-2009, 02:19 AM

Maybe I should have asked a less controversial question, like 'Is there a god'?

That one's easy

Just don't ask about prologues, okay? Pleeeease?

Maxinquaye

12-01-2009, 02:25 AM

Maybe I should have asked a less controversial question, like 'Is there a god'?

Or about the serial comma. :scared:

Swordswoman

12-01-2009, 02:44 AM

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what we are talking about and I think this situation in UK and US is different.

I totally agree with this, and indeed with your whole post. The word 'editing' does seem to mean different things either side of the pond, which was why I tried to clarify above with the reference to a kind of 'US style editing' and specified what I meant by that. In the UK, editing (except copy-editing or line-editing) does mean exactly what you describe, and that is indeed much of what a consultancy does provide.

The problem with the debate is when people assume 'editing' means making changes to the manuscript (eg we've had references to people cutting 'bad language', or effectively doing the writer's job for him). That's no-one's fault - it's simply a US usage. I guess we just need to be very careful to say exactly which country we're talking about and from where our experience derives - as you very properly did yourself, right from the start.

At least the OP was clear which country it was asking about, which I hoped would make this thread less muddy than some others on the subject. Well, there's no harm in hoping, is there?

Louise

KTC

12-01-2009, 02:47 AM

The trick, in this case, is thoroughly researching. The writer is one of the most preyed upon victims in this new world we live in. There are scads and scads of 'editors' who are out to steal a writer's money. Buyer beware. Seriously.

KTC

12-01-2009, 02:55 AM

My comment also applies to 'literary consultancy' of course. I know legitimate editors who also work in acquisitions. There are some good opportunities out there for writers. The sad truth is we have to be overly (as in extremely extremely) vigilant. There are also muggers hiding around every single corner.

I had an 'agent' request a full last year...then give me the spiel about how a thorough edit will cost me $1,750...but, since my manuscript seems so promising he could give me a deal at $1,250. Someone less knowing might have jumped on that deal. They're in every dark corner, people, the lurking scum of the writerly underworld. Ready and willing to take your money.

Get referrals. More than one. Talk to people who dealt with the person you're researching. Be 100% positive they're not a writer vampire.

Shadow_Ferret

12-01-2009, 03:15 AM

Looks like I missed all the fun.

But, to answer the question, no, I wouldn't pay anyone to appraise my work.

If I can't make it on my own (aside from a few Betas), then I don't deserve to make it.

popmuze

12-01-2009, 03:20 AM

Or about the serial comma. :scared:

Don't get me started about the serial comma!

timewaster

12-01-2009, 03:32 AM

Looks like I missed all the fun.

But, to answer the question, no, I wouldn't pay anyone to appraise my work.

If I can't make it on my own (aside from a few Betas), then I don't deserve to make it.

That make no sense to me. There are no prizes for going it alone. I'm not sure deserve' has much to do with anything either.
The best way to a publishing contract is to write well and produce a good book - you are allowed to accept help and learn stuff on the way - it isn't cheating to learn; anything that helps you write a better book is surely a good thing?

Swordswoman

12-01-2009, 03:37 AM

If I can't make it on my own (aside from a few Betas), then I don't deserve to make it.

Interesting.

Do you really mean to imply that those of us who have sought professional help (eg writing classes, workshops, conferences or consultancies) do not deserve to make it? Or is this simply a harsh work-ethic you're imposing on yourself alone?

Either way, it confuses me. You appear to be quite content to accept help in your endeavours - you use Betas, you post in SYW and (like all of us) you ask questions on these boards. If it's acceptable to use what may be unqualified help, can you explain why it's not acceptable for you to use qualified help?

Not being snarky, I just really want to know. You're always very hard on yourself, Shadow Ferret, and having seen your writing I don't understand why.

Louise

cwfgal

12-01-2009, 03:38 AM

I don't get it, either. I can't quite grasp the logic of how getting help from unpaid people is considered "doing it on my own" but paying for the same help isn't.

Beth

Sweetleaf

12-01-2009, 03:57 AM

I don't often post over here, but I'll share on this one.

I had my first manuscript professionaly assessed, by a professional writer and tutor. She helped me with my grammar and punctuation errors, and what parts of the story needed work. Has it been published yet? No. Because what she told me to do was hard, and I still haven't perfected it yet (currently shelved).

I would like to point out that this was before I found AW. I didn't know places like this and beta readers even existed. I'd tried other writing forums local to my country, where I was ridiculed and derided because I was obviously a talentless wannabe, or else I would have been published already.

If I had found this place first, I probably wouldn't have sent it to her, because I now know there are alternatives. But she did help. And what helped the most was four little words:

You do have talent.

If she hadn't said that I probably wouldn't still be writing today. You've got to take encouragement where you can get it.

Just my experience, everyones is different.

KTC

12-01-2009, 05:49 AM

Looks like I missed all the fun.

But, to answer the question, no, I wouldn't pay anyone to appraise my work.

If I can't make it on my own (aside from a few Betas), then I don't deserve to make it.

i'm with you on some of this, ferret. I wouldn't pay anyone to appraise my work, either. so the answer for me would be no too. i write and edit and submit and hope to one day find myself with a publishing contract.

but i don't do it alone. i am a member of a critique circle. i take workshops, etc. i'm a member of a writing circle. i'm actually a board member for a writing conference...because i believe in helping others achieve their writing goals even more than i believe in helping myself achieve my writing goals. i soak myself in the improvement process. so i consider myself to be doing it with help.

but as for polishing my manuscript and submitting it...yes, i will and do do that alone. i hear ya.

KTC

12-01-2009, 05:52 AM

Interesting.

Do you really mean to imply that those of us who have sought professional help (eg writing classes, workshops, conferences or consultancies) do not deserve to make it? Or is this simply a harsh work-ethic you're imposing on yourself alone?

Either way, it confuses me. You appear to be quite content to accept help in your endeavours - you use Betas, you post in SYW and (like all of us) you ask questions on these boards. If it's acceptable to use what may be unqualified help, can you explain why it's not acceptable for you to use qualified help?

Not being snarky, I just really want to know. You're always very hard on yourself, Shadow Ferret, and having seen your writing I don't understand why.

Louise

i can't speak for the ferret, but i do feel like he's being misunderstood. i think he's saying that he won't pay to have someone evaluate his manuscript. he'll do that part himself. that's not the same as not improving yourself with the help of others through workshops, conferences, etc. but ferret will have to explain what he meant. i'm just seeing that he was talking about the 'getting someone to appraise' his work bit.

Swordswoman

12-01-2009, 06:26 AM

i can't speak for the ferret, but i do feel like he's being misunderstood. i think he's saying that he won't pay to have someone evaluate his manuscript. he'll do that part himself. that's not the same as not improving yourself with the help of others through workshops, conferences, etc. but ferret will have to explain what he meant. i'm just seeing that he was talking about the 'getting someone to appraise' his work bit.

I'm sure he'll come back and explain when he has a moment.

It would be strange, however, if that was what he meant, since using a consultancy service of the UK type is exactly like 'improving yourself with the help of others through workshops, conferences etc' - nobody 'polishes' your manuscript, they only offer a detailed critique of how you might improve it yourself.

I too would never allow anyone to polish my manuscript for me. I don't know anyone who's ever had it done, but certainly no-one on the whole thread is advocating it, so again I'd be puzzled if that's what the Ferret was discussing.

I too like to submit for myself - but I didn't say 'no' to someone offering me a strong recommendation to the agent of my own choice. My experience was different from aruna's, in that I discussed with my consultancy service which agent was best for my book, the service contacted her, she requested the book, I took it round personally - and bingo.

If someone whose novels you enjoyed told you your own book was awesome and that they could recommend it to a top agent they knew personally - would you really say no, don't bother?

I'm afraid I didn't.

Louise

Wayne K

12-01-2009, 09:26 AM

I don't see why SF has to explain anything, He said "I" not "You". If that's the standard he sets for himself, then that's that.

cwfgal

12-01-2009, 10:48 AM

I guess everyone has their own set of standards that dictate what they will or won't do to achieve a goal. For me, it's always been about what I wanted to accomplish, not how I got there. Being a published novelist was one of my biggest dreams in life and I have now achieved it. But before I did I was willing to take advantage of any legal and logical opportunity within my grasp to get there.

I wanted it bad enough to invest everything I could spare, whether it was time, effort, or money.

Beth

aruna

12-01-2009, 12:58 PM

It's a pity, because the proliferation of these questions suggests there is genuine demand for solid information on the subject. It just doesn't look as if people are going to find the answers here...

I missed the flames.
.

I don't think they were any flames, just a few heated emotions, and people feeling ignored.

The best way to a publishing contract is to write well and produce a good book - you are allowed to accept help and learn stuff on the way - it isn't cheating to learn; anything that helps you write a better book is surely a good thing?

No, no, no: a perfect manuscript should spring from our brains the moment we sit down to write! No help! That's cheating!

I wanted it bad enough to invest everything I could spare, whether it was time, effort, or money.

Beth

Yes, that's me too. At the time I turned to the consultancy I was by no means rich: in fact, I hod nothing, being a housewife without income. I had to ask my husband for the money, which he gave willingly enough, even though he thought the whole writing thing was nonsense. But we were on a small budget, and it was a sacrifice. One which paid out, in the end.

I have a confession to make: I would not like to enter a reciprocal betaing agreement because I really, really am not much good at it. Compared to the report I got from Hilary anything I would say would seem very amateurish. When I did beta for someone I found it very difficult, and I know there are others who can do a much better job. So I would not recommend myself.

KTC

12-01-2009, 02:51 PM

I don't see why SF has to explain anything, He said "I" not "You". If that's the standard he sets for himself, then that's that.

of course he doesn't. i was just wondering if his words were being misunderstood. it's apparent to me that things are done quite differently in the UK then they are here in North America too. Which makes the room for misunderstanding even bigger.

Phaeal

12-01-2009, 06:23 PM

Thanking my great betas again: love ya, Deb and Jared!

For me, anyhow, betas are far from free. Because time is money, and money is time, and time keeps flowing like a river. Whoa, what?

Anyhow, I pay my betas by beta-reading for them. I put in about sixty hours beta-reading a novel this summer, but it was worth it, because the writer in question was willing to do the same thing for me. So, equivalent effort put forth is my first requirement for a beta.

Also:

-- The ability to edit on all levels, from the most superficial typo to the deepest thematic problem.

-- A reasonably similar writing style.

-- A love for and knowledge of your genre.

-- A working knowledge of publishing.

-- The ability to be honest without being cruel (no hidden emotional agendas, please.) Also, the ability to praise with specificity. An unqualified "Wow, this rocks!" is no more helpful than "OMG, this sucks!"

-- Humor. Humor helps. Because time is humor, and humor is time and... :Wha: :crazy:

So...come to think, I'm looking for the same things in a beta reader I'd look for in a paid editor! I'd just pay them differently.

bearilou

12-01-2009, 06:43 PM

I'd just pay them differently.

This pretty much sums up the entire thread for me. :)

aruna

12-01-2009, 06:46 PM

This pretty much sums up the entire thread for me. :)

Yes. Succint and true.

Shadow_Ferret

12-01-2009, 07:36 PM

I'm sure he'll come back and explain when he has a moment.

KTC got it here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4317930&postcount=157).

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

12-01-2009, 09:02 PM

Good discussion. A couple of things occur to me as I read it:

1) If your final editor can help you make your book better, why couldn't an ethical, professional freelance editor be able to do the same?

2) Money is supposed to flow to the writer, but that doesn't mean the writer should never spend money to invest in his career. What if spending some money and getting some invaluable help leads to lots more money from a successful book or a contract?

It sounds like there are lots of scams out there and the writer should very much beware. I hope to find some fantastic beta readers for my WIP, but if I feel like I'm not getting beta assistance at a high enough quality level, I would be willing to spend some money on someone who is a pro to make sure my ms is as good as I can make it. I'm in the US, btw.

If anyone has suggestions for some good professional editors or beta readers who are qualified to help with a fantasy novel, I would love to hear about them. I will of course post to the beta reader forum eventually.

aruna

12-01-2009, 09:11 PM

If anyone has suggestions for some good professional editors or beta readers who are qualified to help with a fantasy novel, I would love to hear about them. I will of course post to the beta reader forum eventually.

Thought I'd post this from an earlier thread. It's an email Caroline Upcher sent me; she is Hilary's consultant in the US, and has some interesting things to say.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1107495&postcount=42

Thank you for your email and thank you for the invitation to enter your discussion. However, I just don't think I should. Even though I run what I call an editorial service, I don;t believe in being predatory in recruiting authors. I don;t even advertise except on my author's website. If I entered the discussion, I would have to defend what I am doing but I don't really want to try to influence anyone either way. Hiring someone to help and encourage you in your writing has to be pro-active on the part of the writer.

I agree that it is a little shocking to pay money to have someone read your manuscript when your friends - or the members of your writing group - will do it for free. But I started FIRST BASE for several reasons.

1. A selfish reason. I love reading novels in manuscript form. It is tremendously exciting to me to be one of the very first to read someone's work whether they are Anne Tyler, John Grisham or a completely unknown name. I was a fiction editor in London publishing and for Miramax in New York for 22 years and I miss it.

2. I was shocked to learn how long editors and agents take these days to respond to submissions. A first time writer could take years out of their potential writing life waiting for a response. I figured anything I could do to help speed up this process must be a plus. You;re better off getting an answer quickly, even if it is a 'no'. You need to move on. Often the manuscripts that come to me are nowhere near publication but there is an intelligence in the writing that could be nurtured. Often I can see a glimmer of what might be. if I guide someone through a re-write, I know they learn something, which they might apply to the next book, if not this one. I am in touch with many agents in New York and London and I 'scout' for authors for one in London. No one can guarantee that an author will be taken up by an agent - that depends on the work. But I can alert agents to manuscripts I think have real potential and act as a kind of mediator to ensure the author gets an answer without waiting too long

3. It's like riding a bicycle - I think you know whether you're good enough to be published or whether you still might fall over. What I do is not unlike therapy! I can;t write the books for anyone but I can provoke them into examining what they have written and understanding it. Having been a published author since 1990, I know how much I value the input and the encouragement from an editor, and tough criticism mixed with gentle encouragement are two things I focus on with authors I work with. Unfortunately I have to write my own books and I don't have the time to work with people on their books for nothing. I was a professional editor for many years and I am also a writer. I am not an agency. There is only me at my desk and the relationship I build up with the authors with whom I work over many months is relaxed and informal and more personal than other so-called 'book doctors'. I like to know who I'm working with and get a sense of what informs their stories and characters.

4. If someone feels they shouldn't have to pay for an assessment of their work, then they don;t need me or anyone else. (By the way, I sometimes work out payment schedules and reduced deals with those who are on a tight budget - ad I am told I charge less than most people anyway.) Those that want help and are prepared to pay for it know who they are. It's instinctive on their part to contact an editor like myself - and in my case, I always have quite a long exchange of emails outlining what I do (because everyone is an individual case) before they go ahead and send me their manuscript.