The Money Flow

[cwfgal]

Recent debates in the should-I-pay-a-critiquer thread and a research thread (the name of which escapes me at the moment) have made me curious about people's takes on the adage, "Money should always flow toward the writer." I understand where that adage comes from and the intent behind it (to make writers aware of scammers, and to some degree, to stay away from vanity-publishing) is a good one. But "always" is an absolute and I don't see this as an absolute. Some of the money invariably flows away from the writer.

So it begs the question, what money are you, as writers, willing to invest in yourself and your writing career?

What are the acceptable expenses for learning/honing your craft? Courses you pay a fee for? An MFA degree? Books you buy to read and learn from, both on technique and to learn what's already out there publishing-wise? A carefully vetted and knowledgable critiquer? Nothing? What if your plot required some level of expert knowledge you don't have and the only way you can get it is to pay someone to provide it for you. Would you do that?

What expenses are acceptable once you are seeking an agent/publisher? Are postal expenses okay or will you only do email/attachments? What about agent fees? Are you willing to pay an agent if it helps you find a publisher or are you more of a go-direct-to-the publisher type? And if paying an agent is okay, how much are you willing to pay? Is 15% your top? Would you go 20%? Higher? If an agent told you they loved your story but your ms was critically flawed in terms of grammar and spelling and that you needed to fix those flaws before she would take you on, would you be willing to pay someone to do that for you? If an agent asked you to make six copies of your ms and ship them to her at your expense so she could send them to a list of editors she provided, would you do that?

If you were offered a contract with a publisher, would you be willing to forgo an advance if that was the only thing they offered?

Once you are published, are you willing to invest money in marketing/promotion for your book, and if so, what for and how much? Would you pay for a print ad in some prestigious, highly read magazine or newspaper? Would you pay for a professionally rendered web site? Would you pay your own way for a book tour?

I realize some of the answers would depend upon an individual's financial situation, but for the sake of this thread, I'd like everyone to assume you have enough money to pay for the items in question, but doing so will mean making some level of sacrifice and doing without something else for a while (though not the basics of food, shelter, etc). I'm curious to see what things everyone thinks are justifiable investments and what things aren't.

Beth

[BrooklynLee]

My gut response is that I'm willing to pay for things that help develop my skills (books, classes, research materials, etc.) or my career over all (a professional web site to highlight my work, publicity photos for my own use, etc.) but not any of the marketing and publishing costs for an individual book. Still, I'm sure there are hairs to be split even in those categories.

[Birol]

Are you only wanting responses related to novels or do want to look at the professional writing career overall?

[ORION]

I paid for workshops, conferences and retreats while I was working on getting published. When my debut came out I hired an outside publicity firm that worked closely with Putnam.

[Noah Body]

Out of curiosity, what did the publicity firm do for you?

[ChaosTitan]

This is what "money flows toward the writer" means to me. It means I don't send a check to my agent ever; my agent takes his commission and reasonable expenses out of the money made from selling my books. It means I don't send a check to my publisher in order to see my book in print; they send me a check (or rather, they send my agent a check, who then sends me a check). That's what it means to me.

I have spent money in order to get my books published. It's inevitable to spend something. Here's what I've spent money on:

*Postage (queries, manuscript requests, return of signed contracts, mailing prizes to contest winners, etc...)
*Promotion (website hosting, creation of bookmarks and buttons, prizes for contest winners, attending a convention this fall, etc...)
*Education (not counting useless college writing classes, this is more for books such as Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, On Writing, etc..., bought over the years)
*Travel related to Promotion (convention attendance, gas spent traveling to bookstores for future signings, etc...)

Unless you're lucky enough to get a big contract with lots of money riding on your success, the in-house promotion budget for a new author is pretty low. There are a lot of things you can do for free online to promote yourself (Facebook, Twitter, a blog, a free-host website, guest posting on other blogs), but some amount of money will probably have to be spent.

[waylander]

Conventions, I think, are particularly good value for meeting other writers, agents and editors.
Don't forget buying issues of the magazines you want to be published in, if you write short fiction.

[cwfgal]

Are you only wanting responses related to novels or do want to look at the professional writing career overall?

I was initially looking for novel-related stuff (selfishly, because that's what I write, and subject-appropriately since this is the novels forum). But feel free to chime in with overall professional writing career info because I think it's all helpful. Nonfiction comes with its own set of rules and promotion gives you a lot bigger bang for your buck there, I think. Short fiction doesn't seem like a huge career builder by itself to me (though I'm open to being corrected in that assumption) but rather more of an offshoot or sidearm for novelists.

Nonfiction stuff can, and often does play a role in building careers. It did for me to some extent and writing nonfiction allowed me to support myself solely from writing income for several years. But my true love is and always has been writing fiction and I found that the freelancing stuff robbed me of both valuable time and motivation when it came to writing fiction. Writing started to feel like work to me and that was a non-monetary price I wasn't willing to pay. So I gave up all the freelancing stuff.

Beth

[cwfgal]

I paid for workshops, conferences and retreats while I was working on getting published. When my debut came out I hired an outside publicity firm that worked closely with Putnam.

I would love to know how you feel about the cost/benefit ratio for the publicity firm, and what you think they did for you and your book.

I have dallied with the idea of hiring an outside publicity firm many times in the past (and I confess, it's one of the reasons I started this thread) but I always end up shirking away from it. The prices seem so steep and the guarantees are none. Plus I haven't heard many success stories from writers who have gone that route. I'm all for throwing some money at my books to help boost sales and solidify my writing career but I tend to shy away from the things that I don't feel are more proven, especially if the cost is very high.

So if you feel comfortable sharing more specifics, I'd love to hear them.

Beth

[Fillanzea]

I think it's important to look at the root logic behind the law:

If you pay money to an agent, they have no incentive to sell your book. If your agent gets paid on commission, they have an incentive not only to sell your book, but to get you the absolute best deal they can.

If you pay money to a publisher, they have no incentive to promote your book. If the publisher pays money to you, it's because they believe your book can make money and they will promote it accordingly.

Outside of those two instances, then whether you pay money really depends on figuring out the cost/benefit equation. In particular, for promotional stuff and advertising, you have to look at the reasons people buy books... Whether they have huge initial advertising budgets or not, books largely sell on word of mouth. I don't think there's that much we can do as authors to shift that with cute postcards or bookmarks. Besides, the number of dedicated readers is small enough that large-scale advertising is only worth it for big-name authors of thrillers.

I've paid money for:
-at least a dozen books on writing, over a ten-year period, most of which I account for as money well spent. Plus books for research.
-postage, in the past, though all my submissions for Love Story happened to be electronic.
-promotional swag for my book: business cards and bookmarks.
-agent's commission
-putting my ARCs in the mail to reviewers

Will probably do a very small (like, two cities, crashing with friends or relatives) self-funded tour.

Have not paid for:
-Classes. If I had the money for Viable Paradise or Clarion I totally would have applied. I do think they can be worth the money if you match the right class or workshop with the right person.
-MFA. This is still a 'maybe, someday' for me because I think it would be useful in honing my craft, but really, I don't see how it's worth it unless you want to teach creative writing at the college level.
-Anyone to fix my grammar and spelling. If my grammar and spelling were so bad that I needed to pay someone else to fix them, well, I'd have to start all over at the beginning.
-Most kinds of advertising, because I don't believe that most kinds of advertising actually work.
-Professional web page design. I'm good enough at HTML coding and CSS and Photoshop that I can do that myself. It's not really that hard.

[Maxinquaye]

I dislike absolutes in any walk of life. The world is not black and white; it's in shades of grey. So, there are circumstances where it is beneficial for a writer to pay for things, even things that otherwize would be vehemently disputed under other circumstances.

By the very nature of the job, a writer is an individual atom moving around in the world. We isolate ourselves in our room; we often put ourselves outside to observe what is going on instead of participating in the goings-on.

That's our role, setting ourselves apart, and not run around and mingle at parties networking with all and sundry. If that was all we did, then we wouldn't be able to write. That's our role, our purpose, and it's a role and purpose that is created around how we are as persons, i guess. We have to do it, it's not really a choice.

Being thus, I think we also make ourselves vulnerable to those that can network, that can form alliances, that can meet each other over lunch. We're in a trinity in this business that consists of pulishers, agents and writers. It is a delicate balance that can easily be disrupted. Writers depend on agents, agents depend on publishers, and publishers depend on writers.

It's easy for agents and publishers that meet each other every day, that go out on lunches, that go to each others parties to forget the third part of that trinity, unless there's a strong ethical foundation at the core. What can reaffirm that ethical foundation is to have clear communication, and clear separations of roles.

When you start to have agents accept reading fees, publishers set up vanity presses, writers paying publishers/editors, I think you run the risk of upsetting the trinity. It is the little steps toward something we won't like as writers. Each little step can be motivated, each little movement in that direction can be rationalised. And eventually we might end up in a situation where getting published is a privelege that you as a writer should expect to pay for.

All this too a matter of shades of gray. There's no absolutes here. I know that this reasoning is pretty foggy, but that's what I'm thinking. And from that foggy thinking comes the principal, that to preserve the trinity, money flows to the writer, not from the writer. Agents must depend on writers for their income, as must publishers.

Anyway, that's my thinking, and I guess it can be easily demolished.

[NeuroFizz]

A loose rule of thumb is--if you can't (ethically) write them off as expenses on your income taxes*, you may want to pause and reconsider before pulling out the checkbook. Of course, there are exceptions that will differ with each person and each individual situation.

*Things like professional meetings, professional dues, books and other materials, subscriptions to trade mags, promotional expenses, etc.

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

I won't pay to publish. I believe in my writing more than that. I try to get free critique from good friends who I know can write well and won't hold back. If they do hold back, I insult their mothers.

[NeuroFizz]

I dislike absolutes in any walk of life. The world is not black and white; it's in shades of grey. This is fine as long as it isn't used as an excuse to ignore the direct experiences of a large number of published writers who post and share their knowledge here. Unfortunately, this is exactly the way it is used by some people here (not saying you are doing so, Max, it is a more general statement). It's the mantra of new writers who use this kind of "no absolutes" statement to plug their ears and shout, "Naaa, naaa, naaa" whenever they hear something that inconveniences them or their desires or their beliefs in terms of their personal approach to writing. Does that mean these new writers are wrong? Absolutely not. Does it mean they may not be putting themselves in the best position for reaching their writing goals? Quite possibly if they are ignoring the shared wisdom of those much more experienced in the craft and the business of writing.

[Katrina S. Forest]

Pretty much what everyone else has said. I pay for postage and mailing materials to submit manuscripts to editors who still like snail mail. I've gone to conferences and I'm in Pennwriters and SCBWI, so I pay membership fees there.

Clarion West was probably my biggest writing-related expense, and I only went because of its reputation. I think putting out that kind of money for any and every workshop that comes your way is a bit extreme.

[waylander]

Short fiction doesn't seem like a huge career builder by itself to me (though I'm open to being corrected in that assumption) but rather more of an offshoot or sidearm for novelists.

I am convinced that in my own case the fact that I had pro-sales that I could mention in my query letter got me some partial requests from 'query letter only' agents.
But this is a derail

I would also mention that subscription to a good writing group and the costs of travelling to face-to-face meetings with them are a necessary expenditure IMHO

[Maxinquaye]

This is fine as long as it isn't used as an excuse to ignore the direct experiences of a large number of published writers who post and share their knowledge here.

I agree, but then again you have to assess the value of the "common knowledge" too. One example is queries.

There are many that say flatly 'You have to do it like this, or you won't get the time of day from agents".

Only, it's only a valid experience in a given context. If you tried to follow the "common sense" expressed by all those published american writers in a UK context, you'd fail miserably in getting an agent because agents here work slightly differently and the email query with the 5 first pages would most likely give you a swift form rejection, or no resonse at all.

This is a bit of a derail, so I won't go much further here.

[IdiotsRUs]

I would also mention that subscription to a good writing group and the costs of travelling to face-to-face meetings with them are a necessary expenditure IMHO


I concur ( and I'll make it next month, I promise. Barring earthquakes). it's well worth the travel / beer costs when you've found a good bunch.

Other than that I've paid for postage, paper and ink, promo stuff, a few bits and bobs and copies of the book for contests - and a reading fee for the EPICS ( I'm assured that paying a reading fee for contests actually goes with Yog's Law, as the judges are mostly writers, so the money is flowing to them, and it seems only fair to recompense them for their time...anyway, getting to the finals is a good promo in and of itself and the cost was quite minimal)

[Jamesaritchie]

My rule of thumb is twofold. 1. Is spending this money actually going to help me? 2. Is this expense a legitmate tax writeoff?

I happen to believe that hired editor are always a harm, no matter what they do to the book. I believe this partly because I know the percentage of publishable books that have gone through hired editors is no higher than the percentage that doesn't, and partly because I've seen it from the editor's side of the desk where writers I can't work with look like writers I can work with because they hired someone else to do essential work for them.

I don't think most workshops, seminars and conferences are worth the money, either, but some certainly are, so it's pick your poison carefully.

I justthink new writers tend to make writing a lot more complicated than it really is. Most of the wirters I've known who went on to be successful were teh one who pratciced read much, write often, submit everything. Most of the writers I see fail are those who spend more time hiring editors, going to seminars, workshops and conferences, than they actually spend reading, writing, and submitting.

It's teh writer's money, and he can spend it any way he chooses, but I would say make sure it is a legitimate tax writeoff, and make darned sure it isn't being spent on getting someone else to do something you really need to be able to do yourself.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I think the phrase, "money flows toward the writer" is a rule of thumb to keep the writer from being ripped off. There are a lot of predatory and unscrupulous people out there ready to take your money for nothing in return.

If you find that literary agency is charging you a fee to read it, or even edit it. If you find the publisher is charging you a fee for whatever, then run away as fast as you can.

On the other hand, if you feel paying for an editing service will help your novel. Or you feel vanity press is the way to go. That's your decision. Just go in forewarned and forearmed.

Me. I believe money flows to me. I'll pay for office and writer supplies. Postage. But that's about it.

[cwfgal]

I suppose I should answer my own questions. These are the things I have paid for over the years in building my writing career and my evaluation of the worth of the expense:

Numerous creative writing classes in college: these were worth it if only because I had to take the electives in something while pursuing a degree in nursing and I used almost all of my electives on writing classes of some sort, including journalism and technical writing. They helped later on when I was doing freelance stuff but I'm not sure how much help they were to my fiction writing. They were loads of fun, though, and I do think being in a writing atmosphere of that sort sparked my creativity and drive. And one of those classes proved invaluable because it led to my next expenditure...

I hired a published novelist and starving grad student (shows how much he made from his literary novel) who taught one of my creative writing classes to critique a ms for me. We spent nearly half a year doing it, meeting weekly and dissecting a chapter at a time. I paid him, I think, a dollar a page as we went. The whole cost was around $350 (it was about $20/week) and I consider it money very well spent in that I sold the first novel I wrote after this tutelage to HarperCollins for a substantial amount of money.

I have spent hundreds, probably thousands of dollars over the years on book purchases, both current fiction in many genres , books on writing, and reference texts, including those hefty guides to literary agents back in the day before so much info was online. I consider all that money well spent and worth it.

I have attended a few writing conferences, both pre and post publication, but to be honest, I don't think these did much for me either from a writing perspective or from a sales-of-my-books perspective. I'm not inclined to do them anymore. I would teach at them again (I've done a couple in the past) but not because of any promotional or sales benefit. I just really enjoy teaching. Always have. And while I probably wouldn't pay my way to go, I would do it most of the time for expenses only, without any additional fee.

I have paid for web hosting and design and the costs have been reasonable though I don't know what effect, if any, they have had.

I have sponsored all of my own out-of-town book signings, all of which have been tied into visits to friends/relatives and/or vacations I had planned anyway. Kind of a wash, I think.

I have spent money on contest gifts, bookmarks, and giveaways, the most expensive of which was a few hundred pairs of sunglasses to promote my novel, Second Sight. These were all fun, but I'm not sure they did all that much to promote me or the books.

Every cent that has ever gone to my wonderful agents was well worth it.

After failing to secure a new agent (my first one retired) or a new publisher (HarperCollins dropped me after three novels when they purchased Avon) with a mystery I wrote (my first three novels were all thrillers) I self-published the mystery five years ago, mostly as an experiment. I reported the financials and the process in an e-newsletter. I did make a profit, but it was negligible and the number of sales I made were teensy compared to my commercially pubbed novels (less than 500 copies, as I recall). However, I did turn around and sell that novel to a commercial publisher a few years later as the first in a series and part of a three-book deal. It's the one in my signature line below.

I have consulted with a number of experts over the years in order to obtain info for my books. I've never paid any of them with anything more than a free copy of the book and a nod in my acknowledgments. But there were a few experts I approached who asked for money. I always declined.

I can't even begin to add up my postal expenses over the years -- spent on query mailings, ms mailings, ARC mailings, contract mailings, etc. I've been sending stuff out for more than three decades so it's a hefty sum, I'm sure, but a necessary expense. Fortunately it's much less so these days, thanks to emails with attachments.

I've spent money on the sales staff at most of my book signings. I always bring them treats, or buy them when I'm there. At my last signing, an out-of-towner I combined with a family visit, I bought all the staff on duty that day a drink of their choice from the in-store Starbucks. It cost me a total of $24 (they got their drinks for a discount) and it earned me a cadre of book sellers who promote/suggest my book to buyers, and put it on the front desk in a display (reported back to me by a friend who went into the store later). I've been asked to come back anytime and received an email from the store manager stating I was their favorite author ever (hyperbole, no doubt, but it shows they will remember me for a while at least). Totally worth every penny spent and something I will continue to do.

I've done some fun promotional things in the past that were paid for by my publisher. One, which I think was very successful, was a meeting/contest at the Baker & Taylor distribution center in Atlanta. I had family who lived there so I was able to drive down and stay somewhere for free. The publisher paid for a very nice gift basket that was the prize, for a free copy of the book for each of the operators, and for snacks during meet and greets. The contest involved meeting with all of the B&T operators in a series of small groups (hence the snacks) and talking with them for about 30 minutes on my book. Then the operators had a week to sell my book, using suggestive "plugs" when they were taking phone orders. At the end of the week the operator who sold the most units won the gift basket, which was worth about $300. The number of books sold in that week was over 1,000.

I also got to go to a recording studio and tape a promotional spiel that was later aired in Walmart stores all over the country. It was fun to do and super cool to actually hear myself later on when I was in a Walmart, but at the end of the day everyone agreed that it had little impact on the actual sale of books.

Beth

[cwfgal]

Oops, forgot my membership fees to writer's organizations, such as MWA. Also worth it, IMO.

Beth

[cwfgal]

I am convinced that in my own case the fact that I had pro-sales that I could mention in my query letter got me some partial requests from 'query letter only' agents.


I found that mention of my three previously published novels and my 200+ published articles did little to enhance my responses when I went looking for a new agent. Go figure. In fact, I got a better response to queries when I left all that out. Maybe I looked like too much of a has-been???

Beth, derailing my own thread

[IceCreamEmpress]

I found that mention of my three previously published novels and my 200+ published articles did little to enhance my responses when I went looking for a new agent.

Yes.

Three novels that were previously published and haven't yet sold particularly well by NY trade publisher standards is more of a minus than a plus. Sad but true.

[cwfgal]

Yes.

Three novels that were previously published and haven't yet sold particularly well by NY trade publisher standards is more of a minus than a plus. Sad but true.

I'm not sure how they calculate "sold well," but the first two books had sales close to 100,000 copies (the first was around 95,000 and the second, if I remember right, was just under 90,000--they were pbos). The third was only around 60,000 because it was basically orphaned when it came out. From a number sold perspective, my numbers looked okay (or so I was told) and I earned out all of my advances and got some very nice royalty checks. But from a print run perspective, I was only at 50% or so (just under that for the third one) and I've heard that is more what publishers go on. Frustrating, since the writer has no control over a print run decision.

Beth

[Maxinquaye]

I'm not sure how they calculate "sold well," but the first two books had sales close to 100,000 copies (the first was around 95,000 and the second, if I remember right, was just under 90,000--they were pbos). The third was only around 60,000 because it was basically orphaned when it came out. From a number sold perspective, my numbers looked okay (or so I was told) and I earned out all of my advances and got some very nice royalty checks. But from a print run perspective, I was only at 50% or so (just under that for the third one) and I've heard that is more what publishers go on. Frustrating, since the writer has no control over a print run decision.

Beth

The death spiral then. It's nasty.

Which means that the booksellers will only buy your previous sales in that bookstore. If you sell print 10k books, and only 8k sells, the booksellers will only buy 8k the next time. If you then print 8k, and it only sells 6k...

At least that's how I understood it from the Uncle Jim thread.

[Libbie]

I'd be willing to pay for workshops and conferences. That's about it. I'm not the kind of person who tends to learn well in classroom-type situations, so a course wouldn't be appealing to me, but I would be willing to shell out for such a situation in a workshop context, because the critique from a writer whose opinion I value would be worth the cash. For me.

And, of course, 15% for an agent (20% for foreign sales.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Short fiction doesn't seem like a huge career builder by itself to me (though I'm open to being corrected in that assumption) but rather more of an offshoot or sidearm for novelists.

The number one reason why anyone buys anyone's novel is that the reader has read and enjoyed something else by the same author.

That's how short fiction can boost the novelist's career: Readers need to invest less (in time and money) to read that work. They are therefore more likely to pick it up on spec.

That's why the magazines and the anthologies are important.

[IceCreamEmpress]

But from a print run perspective, I was only at 50% or so (just under that for the third one) and I've heard that is more what publishers go on. Frustrating, since the writer has no control over a print run decision.


I couldn't agree more--that kind of stuff is infuriating and short-sighted and basically crazy. My best to you in finding a new and AWESOME agent.

[LuckyH]

When I started to write seriously, having prepared myself by reading and studying over a number of years, I quickly found that I was a ‘recluse’ writer, hopeless in a social setting connected with my writing. I just locked myself away and wrote until my manuscript was ready for submission, and apart from one occasion that came later, without any outside help.

After the usual expense of copying hundreds of double-spaced pages and postage, I eventually found an agent and publisher, which didn’t cost me anything, something I didn’t even consider at the time, it just wasn’t done that way. I did purchase the Writers and Artists Year book in order to know whom to submit to, but I don’t think any agent or publisher charged fees upfront.

In perspective though, during those early days of rejections, I don’t know what I would have done if paying options had been available.

A few years ago, I was finally obliged to do the publicity rounds by my publisher; TV, radio, press and book signings, which I hated, but which didn’t cost me anything apart from travelling expenses. I also paid for a decent website and hosting.

I’ve got no idea whether what I did pay out for, mainly the website and travelling, made any difference to the number of copies sold, and maybe I’m on the ‘death spiral’ without knowing it, but even if I was, it wouldn’t stop me from pounding away at my processor to tell the next story. It may be the best one yet.

[timewaster]

I didn't spend anything prior to pub either but I didn't know there was anything to spend it on other than the year book. I think it would be OK to spend money on reputable courses, reputable critiques, self publishing it that's what you're into, web sites, childcare, S of A membership, meeting up with other writers etc

[Libbie]

Oh, I guess I should add that I'd be willing to shell out a good chunk of money on a publicist and a tour, if I had a lot of evidence that it would be likely to enhance sales. And on other publicity goodies, too -- book marks, contest prizes, etc.

[Libbie]

The number one reason why anyone buys anyone's novel is that the reader has read and enjoyed something else by the same author.

That's how short fiction can boost the novelist's career: Readers need to invest less (in time and money) to read that work. They are therefore more likely to pick it up on spec.

That's why the magazines and the anthologies are important.

I do admit that I've become a rabid fan of certain sci-fi writers who have so far only published short stories. I am having all kinds of spasms, waiting for them to write and publish novels. I want more.

Short fiction is, I think, invaluable to a novelist's career. I really ought to write more of it.

[cwfgal]

I couldn't agree more--that kind of stuff is infuriating and short-sighted and basically crazy. My best to you in finding a new and AWESOME agent.

Oh I did, a couple of years ago. Thanks!

Beth

[ORION]

I'm another one who doesn't think in absolutes. Hired editors can be a huge help. They don't re-write a story- they provide professional feedback and can really take a manuscript one level up- I'm not talking about spell check and grammar. I'm talking of story arc and characterization and things that most writers don't understand right off and need help with.
Retreats and workshops and conferences helped me personally as they got me educated about the business of publishing and helped me create a network of writers and authors -
When my debut novel was published I hired a PR firm that was worth every penny- I know it isn't an option for some but for me it ended up being a good thing-
Each circumstance with a writer is different- I don't think you can make black and white statements about what's worth it or what's not.

[cwfgal]

The number one reason why anyone buys anyone's novel is that the reader has read and enjoyed something else by the same author.

That's how short fiction can boost the novelist's career: Readers need to invest less (in time and money) to read that work. They are therefore more likely to pick it up on spec.

That's why the magazines and the anthologies are important.

I totally agree with the above and realize now that I didn't communicate what I was actually trying to say very well (bad writer!). So let me clarify. What I meant was that I don't think short story writing alone is a viable route to a solid writing career (and I'm still open to correction) but I definitely see its value to a novelist -- hence my sidearm comment. I think novels and short stories make great adjuncts but I don't know any famous short story writers who do that alone. (Although, I do think short story writers in the sci-fi community probably enjoy more success and name-awareness than some other genres might -- just a guess, though.)

Beth

[The Lonely One]

Recent debates in the should-I-pay-a-critiquer thread and a research thread (the name of which escapes me at the moment) have made me curious about people's takes on the adage, "Money should always flow toward the writer." I understand where that adage comes from and the intent behind it (to make writers aware of scammers, and to some degree, to stay away from vanity-publishing) is a good one. But "always" is an absolute and I don't see this as an absolute. Some of the money invariably flows away from the writer.

So it begs the question, what money are you, as writers, willing to invest in yourself and your writing career?

What are the acceptable expenses for learning/honing your craft? Courses you pay a fee for? An MFA degree? Books you buy to read and learn from, both on technique and to learn what's already out there publishing-wise? A carefully vetted and knowledgable critiquer? Nothing? What if your plot required some level of expert knowledge you don't have and the only way you can get it is to pay someone to provide it for you. Would you do that?

Well, for starters, I do think college has been invaluable to me. Not that I agree with the elitism that often arises from college literature programs, but I think my education has been a "take what you need" exchange. Many of my teachers have, while pushing their own ideas of what good literature is, fostered individuality as well. This seems like a paradox of some kind but I guess you have to think of it as "well-meaning." That is, they will recommend authors and styles that have been passed down to them, but if you follow a different path they will not resist your path if you can prove yourself. I have been blessed because I am aware not all professors have this open exchange of style/ideas/etc. It is easy to make art about absolutes in an academic environment.

I think the best defense against the negatives of college writing courses is to acquire tools and shape them to yourself. You become more powerful as a writer with each new thing you learn. Choose to follow teachers that inspire you, and simply steal technical know-how from the ones who try to push you somewhere you don't want to be, then part ways.

To me, college has been worth the money because I've been exposed to so many new writers and styles (while leaning literary, diversely so) in a group-discussion. The discussion is what drew me here, to AW. I haven't done an MFA and don't know if I will, but just the exposure and dialog are worth the education to me.

Yes, and a few writing books, but not many. I rely more on fiction itself to teach me fiction. And rightly so. But if I truly trust an author by the fiction s/he writes, I'll be more willing to learn their techniques (because I already believe the techniques work).

What expenses are acceptable once you are seeking an agent/publisher? Are postal expenses okay or will you only do email/attachments? What about agent fees? Are you willing to pay an agent if it helps you find a publisher or are you more of a go-direct-to-the publisher type? And if paying an agent is okay, how much are you willing to pay? Is 15% your top? Would you go 20%? Higher? If an agent told you they loved your story but your ms was critically flawed in terms of grammar and spelling and that you needed to fix those flaws before she would take you on, would you be willing to pay someone to do that for you? If an agent asked you to make six copies of your ms and ship them to her at your expense so she could send them to a list of editors she provided, would you do that?

Hmm. so much of this is contextual, I think, to the kind of relationships you build, the point in your career, perhaps. As an unpublished novelist, I'd accept maybe more of a slant away from myself than I would if I'd made a name for myself and had proven saleability. Maybe that's a mistake on my part, I don't truly know. But I'd likely put up for postage and things of that kind (printing, etc.) because I have in the past for short fiction.

If you were offered a contract with a publisher, would you be willing to forgo an advance if that was the only thing they offered? Depends. Some people are living from their fiction. I'm not versed enough to answer if one should or shouldn't agree to such terms. but for me personally, if the publishing opportunity were promising, I'm more interested in getting my book out there than the amount in an advance.

Once you are published, are you willing to invest money in marketing/promotion for your book, and if so, what for and how much? Would you pay for a print ad in some prestigious, highly read magazine or newspaper? Would you pay for a professionally rendered web site? Would you pay your own way for a book tour? all things I'd probably discuss with my agent when they arose. I like to think I'm open-minded, so it's a possibility I'd invest in advertisement if I had the means to do so. After all, I do believe in myself and have already invested countless hours.

I realize some of the answers would depend upon an individual's financial situation, but for the sake of this thread, I'd like everyone to assume you have enough money to pay for the items in question, but doing so will mean making some level of sacrifice and doing without something else for a while (though not the basics of food, shelter, etc). I'm curious to see what things everyone thinks are justifiable investments and what things aren't.

Beth

Ah. It's hard for me to come up with exact figures as I've never published and don't really have a basis for costs of advertising and publishing, advances, etc.

My bottom line is that industry standards (not paying fees to agents or editors) are my standards. But like I said money is secondary here to getting my stuff out there. Want to be read, first and foremost.

[The Lonely One]

I think novels and short stories make great adjuncts but I don't know any famous short story writers who do that alone.


It might be the era we live in, also. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Fitzgerald live on short stories? I'd heard somewhere that he and Hemingway used short fiction to pay the bills while finishing longer projects.

Dunno how accurate that is, though.

[Slushie]

It might be the era we live in, also. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Fitzgerald live on short stories? I'd heard somewhere that he and Hemingway used short fiction to pay the bills while finishing longer projects.

Dunno how accurate that is, though.

I'm also under that impression. This is from Wikipedia, so take it as you will:

During his Paris years, in addition to filing stories for the Toronto Star, Hemingway published short stories in various journals; the Parisian edition of the short story collection In Our Time (1924); the Three Stories and Ten Poems (1924);[120] and the revised and renamed American edition of In Our Time (1925)He didn't publish The Sun Also Rises until 1926. Fitzgerald, Hemingway, and the rest of the Lost Generation apparently drank themselves drunk together around Paris while bantering around story ideas and critiques.

Ah, the good ol' days...


For me, writing is writing and if I'm feeling stuck on my main project then I'll whip up a short story just to flex my lit'rary muscles. If I feel it's up to my highest standards, then maybe I'll submit. But I don't write short stories with the intent of publication. I write them just for my own satisfaction and practice.

[Slushie]

/slight derail

Quick question to all:

Back then (y'know, when deodorant was a new concept) it seems like novels would make their first appearance in literary magazines before being bound in book form. Are there any magazines that do this anymore?

/end of slight derail

[ClaudiaGray]

Recent debates in the should-I-pay-a-critiquer thread and a research thread (the name of which escapes me at the moment) have made me curious about people's takes on the adage, "Money should always flow toward the writer." I understand where that adage comes from and the intent behind it (to make writers aware of scammers, and to some degree, to stay away from vanity-publishing) is a good one. But "always" is an absolute and I don't see this as an absolute. Some of the money invariably flows away from the writer.

So it begs the question, what money are you, as writers, willing to invest in yourself and your writing career?

What are the acceptable expenses for learning/honing your craft? Courses you pay a fee for? An MFA degree? Books you buy to read and learn from, both on technique and to learn what's already out there publishing-wise? A carefully vetted and knowledgable critiquer? Nothing? What if your plot required some level of expert knowledge you don't have and the only way you can get it is to pay someone to provide it for you. Would you do that?

I've never paid for a writing course, though I would. An MFA I think is probably not worthwhile unless you are writing literary fiction (though individual mileage may vary), and I'm not; plus, I've spent about as much time in grad school as I intend to. I have purchased a couple of writing-craft books. I am lucky enough to have found very solid, insightful critiquers who do the work for free if I do the same for them, which is a gift. I'd be very wary of anybody who wanted me to pay for expert knowledge short of something that is in fact a kind of work -- a translation into/from an ancient language, for instance. I've heard that most people are pretty happy to share what they know, though you might spring for beer and pizza while you're talking. I'd do that, definitely.

What expenses are acceptable once you are seeking an agent/publisher? Are postal expenses okay or will you only do email/attachments? What about agent fees? Are you willing to pay an agent if it helps you find a publisher or are you more of a go-direct-to-the publisher type? And if paying an agent is okay, how much are you willing to pay? Is 15% your top? Would you go 20%? Higher? If an agent told you they loved your story but your ms was critically flawed in terms of grammar and spelling and that you needed to fix those flaws before she would take you on, would you be willing to pay someone to do that for you? If an agent asked you to make six copies of your ms and ship them to her at your expense so she could send them to a list of editors she provided, would you do that?

I would have paid postal expenses but happily only had to deal with email. My agent is worth every single dime. She has never asked me to do her photocopying, thank the Lord.

If you were offered a contract with a publisher, would you be willing to forgo an advance if that was the only thing they offered?

HELL NO. And I would advise anybody else against doing this. Basically, a publisher is invested in you to a degree roughly proportional to the advance they paid. (There may be exceptions to this rule, but this is the rule.) If they didn't pay you an advance, they have almost no money to lose -- which means your book gets postponed, relegated to back shelves, kept in stores for only a month or two, etc. You might "earn out" in the technical sense, but there's a much lower likelihood that you're going to get the kind of sales that (a) show a real profit for all your hard work and (b) make the publisher want to buy more books from you and promote your career.

There are arguments to be made about the dangers of too-low/too-high advances. I think there are almost zero arguments to be made for forgoing an advance. Should a publisher back you b/c of the quality of the book? Yes. Is that what's going to happen? No. Taking your advance is, among other things, a way of making sure your publisher is invested, to some degree, in your book and in you.

Once you are published, are you willing to invest money in marketing/promotion for your book, and if so, what for and how much? Would you pay for a print ad in some prestigious, highly read magazine or newspaper? Would you pay for a professionally rendered web site? Would you pay your own way for a book tour?

I have paid for a nice web site, which I think is more than worthwhile. I've paid my own way to some speaking events, although I should point out that those costs are tax-deductible, which means I feel like I break even on the deal -- and get to travel fun places to boot. (My self-scheduled events have a tendency to be in cities where a friend of mine lives.) I've never paid for my own marketing -- there are situations in which I would, but I'd want my efforts to dovetail with those of my publisher.

[LOG]

This is what "money flows toward the writer" means to me. It means I don't send a check to my agent ever; my agent takes his commission and reasonable expenses out of the money made from selling my books. It means I don't send a check to my publisher in order to see my book in print; they send me a check (or rather, they send my agent a check, who then sends me a check). That's what it means to me.

I have spent money in order to get my books published. It's inevitable to spend something. Here's what I've spent money on:

*Postage (queries, manuscript requests, return of signed contracts, mailing prizes to contest winners, etc...)
*Promotion (website hosting, creation of bookmarks and buttons, prizes for contest winners, attending a convention this fall, etc...)
*Education (not counting useless college writing classes, this is more for books such as Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, On Writing, etc..., bought over the years)
*Travel related to Promotion (convention attendance, gas spent traveling to bookstores for future signings, etc...)

Unless you're lucky enough to get a big contract with lots of money riding on your success, the in-house promotion budget for a new author is pretty low. There are a lot of things you can do for free online to promote yourself (Facebook, Twitter, a blog, a free-host website, guest posting on other blogs), but some amount of money will probably have to be spent.
QFT

[Anahid21]

As I said in my thread about long novels I paid a freelance editor to go over my novel and fix my writing. She changed the voice of my writing so that people no longer say I write with an accent. She also cleaned up the language, edited out the unintentional modern words, and split up my 15,000 word chapters into coherent sections. Everyone says you shouldn't pay for your book, but when I think about the nightmare my manuscript would have been without her work and the hell I would have to go through now that I have to re-edit it, I don't regret it for a second.

[djf881]

What expenses are acceptable once you are seeking an agent/publisher? Are postal expenses okay or will you only do email/attachments? What about agent fees? Are you willing to pay an agent if it helps you find a publisher or are you more of a go-direct-to-the publisher type? And if paying an agent is okay, how much are you willing to pay? Is 15% your top? Would you go 20%? Higher?


I don't think that very many people here will dispute the basic soundness of seeking a literary agent. Agents get you in to the imprints that won't read unagented submissions. Agents get you in front of the right editors instead of unpaid slush readers. Agents get you better deal terms than you could negotiate on your own.

A legitimate agent doesn't get paid until the writer does, so paying a commission on royalties is in no way inconsistent with the basic rule.

Now, if an agent requested an atypical commission or had an adverse term in his agency agreement that struck me as unusual, that should send up a red flag to the author. A lot of people calling themselves agents are not legitimate.


If an agent told you they loved your story but your ms was critically flawed in terms of grammar and spelling and that you needed to fix those flaws before she would take you on, would you be willing to pay someone to do that for you?


Is this something you've experienced, or is this a hypothetical? I have heard of scam agencies who don't really sell books getting authors to buy supplemental services and then dumping them. If a newbie poster asked about the situation you propose, I would assume the "agent" was scamming them.

Superficial typos would not require a freelance editor; the author and the agent could probably clean the MS up on their own prior to submission. If the problems were so severe that the agent didn't want to deal with them, she would probably reject the manuscript out of hand, as she does with 99% of everything she receives. Referring the author to a freelance editor would send up a giant red-flag.

The fundamentals of the English language are a writer's basic tools. If the writer hasn't mastered these skills, then it's likely that the author hasn't read very much and isn't well-educated, formally or informally. It's very unlikely that such a person would have written a worthwhile book.

My feeling is that you can get a helpful, enthusiastic beta reader for free here if your work is any good. If nobody here will read you, you have problems beyond the capabilities of a freelance editor.


If an agent asked you to make six copies of your ms and ship them to her at your expense so she could send them to a list of editors she provided, would you do that?



This is a normal request, except that it might indicate the agent has a worrisome issue with technology, since most pubs take e-mail submissions.

[Medievalist]

Recent debates in the should-I-pay-a-critiquer thread and a research thread (the name of which escapes me at the moment) have made me curious about people's takes on the adage, "Money should always flow toward the writer." I understand where that adage comes from and the intent behind it (to make writers aware of scammers, and to some degree, to stay away from vanity-publishing) is a good one. But "always" is an absolute and I don't see this as an absolute. Some of the money invariably flows away from the writer.

You realize that you have removed the statement from its context (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/), right?

[cwfgal]

[QUOTE]Is this something you've experienced, or is this a hypothetical?

A little of both. On an old writing board I used to visit there was a gentleman in the US for whom English was his second language. He submitted to an agent who loved the story idea and who did eventually end up repping the gentleman. But first he had to hire a freelance editor to fix all the grammatical errors in his ms. He worked with this person for several months getting the ms ship-shape. The agent was a legitimate one and the editor the gentleman hired wasn't one the agent recommended. I don't know if the ms ever sold.

Beth

[IceCreamEmpress]

On an old writing board I used to visit there was a gentleman in the US for whom English was his second language.

This is a big part of my own bread-and-butter as a freelance editor (I also have experience in teaching English as a Second Language), though it tends to be more with non-fiction writers than novelists.