Omniscient Third Person?

[gothicangel]

What are people's thoughts about using a third person omniscient narrator?

I've been trying to write the novel in multiple first, and to be honest I've been struggling. This evening I've been writing an essay on this narrative device in Tess of the D'Urbervilles and it made me wonder.

It seems to be a good way to enter a character's point of view without the problems of first person. I was quite taken with the the way it's used to show a character being watched without their knowledge.

I know a lot of people dislike first person, so what about omniscient? It seems to be more associated with 19th century authors like Austen, Eliot and Hardy; but I see Hitch-hiker was written this way too.

I'm all up for attempting a rewrite, but is there a chance that it's seen as "out-of-fashion" by agents/editors.:e2writer:

[Cyia]

Stephen King writes a lot of omni.

[Maxinquaye]

I know a lot of people dislike first person, so what about omniscient? It seems to be more associated with 19th century authors like Austen, Eliot and Hardy; but I see Hitch-hiker was written this way too.
:

I think it can be useful. Terry Pratchett uses it a lot. Someone here on AW said when it came up that you just need to remember it's the POV of an invisible narrator, and that you need to keep that narrator's integrity.

I see the sense in that advice.

[gothicangel]

I obviously need to take more notice when I read! lol

That is a good piece of advice. I'll keep it in mind!

[eqb]

Ellen Kushner used omni for Swordspoint. So did Steven Brust for his Phoenix Guard novels. There are others, with greater and lesser success, but yeah, if you like it, go for it.

[Linda Adams]

If you think it'll be good for your story, then go for it. I switched to omniscient after trying both third and first (third wasn't working, and first was absolutely horrible), and the story settled nicely into the viewpoint.

I know a lot of people dislike first person, so what about omniscient? It seems to be more associated with 19th century authors like Austen, Eliot and Hardy; but I see Hitch-hiker was written this way too.

A surprising number of books are written in omniscient viewpoint, particularly in thriller and young adult, though I've also found a few science fiction novels. If done well, most people will mistake it for a more traditional third person. If it's done badly ... well, that's where people say they don't like omniscient.

You will likely find it difficult to get critiques, though. A lot of writers don't like omni and will focus on the use it instead of meaningful crits. I've been told I would never get published if I used omni and even had someone say, "I'm sure you know your story, but here's how you would do it in third." :Headbang: So, if you know it's right for your story, stick to your guns if people tell you to change. I stopped getting crits because the negative critiques weren't a good use of a time.

I'm all up for attempting a rewrite, but is there a chance that it's seen as "out-of-fashion" by agents/editors.

I have seen plenty of writers and how-to books say this. But I've been reading agent blogs for years and have yet to see an agent say they reject because the story's in omniscient. Editor Alan Rintzler sums it up in his blog (http://www.alanrinzler.com/blog/2009/05/26/ask-the-editor-do-publishers-have-rules-about-pov/):

My only rule: Does the manuscript work?

[blacbird]

Not to be taken as a criticism, but I think a pertinent question to answer would be: Why do you feel you need to use third-omni narrative POV? What are you trying to do with your narrative that nudges you in this direction?

The question comes from my sense that the story should determine the best-fit POV, rather than having an arbitrary POV choice dictate the way the story is told. And regards omni-third, I've seen more manuscripts than I can mention in which omni-third, or some sloppy simulacrum thereof, has been an obvious lowest-common denominator POV when the writer doesn't really understand what he or she is doing. I think that's where a fair amount of the objection to omni-third POV arises from.

caw

[AlishaS]

My latest MS in Third Person Omni and am getting a lot of flack about it. People either think I don't know how to right and try and correct it or ignore it all together and not comment critique it.

It is my understanding that there are pro's and con's on the subject and will say that it is no a "dead art" so to speak. I have come across a lot of recently published books in Third Person Omni so I think if the story is good it won't matter the way it is presented. Or at last that's what I hope.

I agree with the above, stick to your guns. If that's how the novel needs to be written then that's how you should do it.

[JoNightshade]

Another suggested read for this POV: The Godfather.

Be aware that although it may seem easy, this POV is actually quite difficult to do well, mainly because people aren't used to seeing it quite as much in modern fiction. People in my writing group have had some major issues... they think it reads just fine and the rest of us are like "Uh... whu?!" Not because we don't like the POV, but because when it's not done effectively it can get really tangled.

[Juliette Wade]

I don't write in third omni myself. I think that it's not exactly "out of style" but gets a lot of flak because of people who don't keep the narrator well-integrated (using location and judgment tools) and let the whole thing get out of control. There's a lot of third omni used historically, I think because it was the default narrative style for a very long time.

I think you're on to something if you feel your WIP feels better in third omni. My own advice would be, just don't choose third omni by default - have a good reason to maintain an independent narrator who can dip into everyone's heads. Third omni doesn't work for my stories because much of the story drive depends on discrepancies in understanding between the different points of view. A story that depends on misunderstanding doesn't work if I don't maintain the myopia of the character!

Either way, I hope you find the best way for your story to work!

[K.L. Townsend]

I really don't like omni-third, but I agree that you should use whatever suits our story best. There really isn't a wrong answer as long as it fits the story, imo.

[gothicangel]

I think what I like about it, is the way that you can contrast the ways characters see each other. I tried third person and didn't like only being able to 'report' thoughts; tried multiple first but that isn't working either. I think third person omni might give me that access to a character's conscious without the limitations of first.

It wasn't until I was looking at the prose as an academic that I realised it was third person omni. I guess that's the key, the technique only become noticable when it's done badly.

[HConn]

I guess that's the key, the technique only become noticable when it's done badly.

I have to disagree here. One of the benefits of third person omni is that you can introduce a very strong voice. That's very noticeable, but when you do it well, it's great fun.

[IceCreamEmpress]

The third-person omniscient narrator is also a character, and has to have a consistent voice. This is the biggest challenge of writing third-person omniscient, and one that people often forget.

Think about Jane Austen's narrator ("It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.") We tend to conflate that voice with Jane Austen herself, but it's a character--a wise onlooker who's a bit cynical but ultimately generous about human nature.

Compare that with Hardy's narrator, who's both steeped in the lore of the English countryside and incredibly cynical about human motivations.

[Cliff Face]

3rd omni is what I used with my first 2 books, and will continue to use for the rest of that saga. I can't really describe why I like it so much, but it just seemed like the logical step for me. Like, can you imagine Hitch-hiker's in 1st person? Very few guide entries, no knowledge of the building maelstrom of events around Arthur... I don't think it'd be as good a book.

I give 3rd omni a big thumbs up. :)

That said, I'm currently writing in 1st for some other project, and I can see the merit in that too. I switch between the 2 for my different books because before I write a single word I try and figure out what will work best... The saga needed 3rd omni because of what I wanted it to read like. This current book needed 1st. Neither is any better than the other in principle, they just have different uses, and you'll know when you've made the right decision, and it should come through clear to the trained eye of an editor.

I doubt your book would be rejected because it's 3rd omni. Narrate away!

[Anahid21]

Like Linda I've been burned for writing Omni even though it's the chosen mode for sprawling, epic stories, which mine, sort of is. An agent quite recently told me no likey because "it's telling instead of showing." I'm changing it now - among other things such as slashing subplots and removing extra details - to make the book more marketable.

But I've been reading agent blogs for years and have yet to see an agent say they reject because the story's in omniscient.
The one who rejected mine was Marlene Stinger. This is what she said in her second email to me: "The idea of showing means to be showing the story from inside the head of a character, usually the protagonist. This is the filter through which the story is presented. The POV (point of view.) Some agents enjoy fable-type stories, so I encourage you to query widely."

Sound like she doesn't like omni to me.

[blacbird]

An agent quite recently told me no likey because "it's telling instead of showing."

This may not be a criticism of omni-POV specifically. You need to look real close at the writing. Omni doesn't have to be "telly". Well done, it won't come across that way.

caw

[Linda Adams]

This may not be a criticism of omni-POV specifically. You need to look real close at the writing. Omni doesn't have to be "telly". Well done, it won't come across that way.

caw

If I got a rejection like that, the first thing I would do is look at the writing. See if I could make improvements because it can be a difficult viewpoint to carry off. What I wouldn't do is instantly say, "All agents don't like omniscient viewpoint--I need to change the story." Especially since a lot of rejections of good stories are personal taste.

[defcon6000]

I know a lot of people dislike first person, so what about omniscient? It seems to be more associated with 19th century authors like Austen, Eliot and Hardy; but I see Hitch-hiker was written this way too.


People dislike 1st person?

Did you mean Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? That's the most recent one (including the 6th book) that I can think of that uses 3rd person omniscient and uses it well.

I think the only thing you have to fear with 3rd person omniscient is the potential pitfall of blending your characters' personalities. But that can easily be avoided with well established characters, perhaps give each character their own scene so we get to know them on a one-to-one basis. And make sure each character has a distinct personality from the rest.

[SPMiller]

Gardner argued that third omni is the optimal way to tell a story. Any story. No qualification. Period.

I, however, dislike third omni because it generally requires the creation of a character "outside" the story events to handle the narration. Yuck yuck yuck. Gardner can take his dislike of so-called artificial tension and stuff it. And yeah, I'd say that to his face if he were alive.

[Anahid21]

Is it wrong to mix things up? Can a writer use third person POV for scenes where a major character is present and omni for battle scenes, action involving non-human creatures, or when bit characters are the only ones involved in the scene? Something tells me (aside from those who said it in this thread) that if the writing is good the viewpoint shift shouldn't be a big deal, especially if it is clearly defined and separated by scenes?

[Cyia]

James Patterson's Alex Cross books are a mix of 1st person for Alex's chapters and 3rd for the villain's chapters.

[Lady Ice]

I have to disagree here. One of the benefits of third person omni is that you can introduce a very strong voice. That's very noticeable, but when you do it well, it's great fun.

Exactly. And it allows you to explore a wide scope of people and places all in the space of one book.

[Maxinquaye]

I'm alternating between 3rd omni and 3rd limited in my second WIP scrolls & dolls. Most of the book is 3rd limited, but some passages are in omni.

[Hmmm.strange]

I read some of the comments, above, and they are good, then they got kind of tiresome. I'm a hands-on absolutely practical guy who believes in testing out these writing notions and seeing if they hold water.

I'm currently writing a longish short story with the second half in omniscient, so I've been thinking about it. And at one time in the past, I took an award-winning short story and rewrote it from first to third person. That exercise taught me how they are actually very close to each other; I was surprised, it wasn't that hard to do.

Here's what I think is important (and I'm in the middle of this, so I can't absolutely vouch for what I call my "working hypothesis"): Think about the impact on the reader. Reader is inside the head of Jordan, seeing things through his eyes. Period paragraph. Now he's inside Janet's head looking at Jordan, considering him . . .

In order for the reader to make this transition, a certain amount of the readere's psychic energy is required; Reader has to press a little bit, something unexpected has happened, and attention must be paid. "Huh? Wha't s going on?"

Because something is being asked of the reader, a quid pro quo is required.

The instant the reader realizes that the author has pulled this little trick, heading jumping, especially the first time it happens, the reader better find pretty damn interesting whatever is the result of that new POV. I think it pretty damn-well better not be exposition, flashback, anything not absolutely right there in the moment, and for the reader, it needs to carry with it at least the whiff of anticipation ("holy cow, that's what she thinks? If he only knew . . . and What's going to happen next?").

I think two or three POV jumps in, the reader becomes accustomed to the convention (which, after all, probably isn't absolutely brand new to him/her), and the writer can relax (maybe) a little (but, of course, you better not relax much at all), because if you're going to keep the reader interested, you've got to keep things interesting (keep the pot boiling).

So if you can't justify the head-jump with something juicy (something that will hold the reader's interest), don't do it; stay with the person you're in. Especially don't let the head jumps become formulaic, predictable, don't allow a pattern to develop (which would make it easier for you, less interesting for the reader).

That's my thinking on the omniscient so far. Maybe I'll learn some more by trying to make it work.

I think agents deal with a lot of less-experienced writers, and the single POV commercial novel is easier to categorize and present to publishers. And, too, many agents just don't know that much about how fiction works; they've come into the business through the Eng. Lit. end, which (in my experience) teaches a very misleading bunch of junk with respect to fiction and not much at all that actually is useful to a working writer.

Hope this helps.

FYI, my blog, "A Writer's Notes," is here: http://www.awritersnotes-billjustbill.blogspot.com/

[Cyia]

Here's what I think is important (and I'm in the middle of this, so I can't absolutely vouch for what I call my "working hypothesis"): Think about the impact on the reader. Reader is inside the head of Jordan, seeing things through his eyes. Period paragraph. Now he's inside Janet's head looking at Jordan, considering him . . .


That's not omni; it's head-hopping. The problem with omni is that inexperienced writers often confuse the two.

Omni = good.

Head hopping = not so much.

[Anahid21]

That's not omni; it's head-hopping. The problem with omni is that inexperienced writers often confuse the two.

Omni = good.

Head hopping = not so much.

I personally like 3rd person better than omni because it lets the reader get closer to the environment of the story. However I'm writing an epic fantasy where in many parts, the action happens without the main character. So here is my question. How do you handle scenes like this:

-The MC goes to a room where he meets the commander of the kingdom's army. They talk. (obviously MC's POV)

-The MC leaves the room. (Still MC's POV)

-While the commander is putting his papers away someone knocks on the door. It's his second in command with very important news. This news will change the course of the story. (Who's POV now???)

Does a situation like this demand a story be told from an omni POV? Or can I hop in the commander's head just for that scene?

[Maxinquaye]

-While the commander is putting his papers away someone knocks on the door. It's his second in command with very important news. This news will change the course of the story. (Who's POV now???)

You have to change POV in scene breaks, not in the middle of a text. Doing it in the middle of a text is head-hopping, and confuses the reader. To change POV you need to have a definite break in order to step back and switch perspective.

Sort of like in the movies. If you have an abrupt switch between a close-up and bird perspective, it will be jarring. It will not be jarring if you zoom out. The zooming in text is switching pov in a scene break.

[Anahid21]

You have to change POV in scene breaks, not in the middle of a text. Doing it in the middle of a text is head-hopping, and confuses the reader. To change POV you need to have a definite break in order to step back and switch perspective.


That's essentially what I meant. Switching the POV in the next scene. Personally I don't see a problem having a different POV in every scene as long as it isn't a rotating formula and the writing draws me in.

[John61480]

Forget head hopping. Just use the narrators voice. I tried omni, but I wasn't concentrating too much on the skill part when I did it. I'm sure there is a whole lot more too omni, but just use the narrator as a start for yourself. This keeps everything even and not so jittery.

This is just my unprofessional opinion with no basis on anything but a one time experiment I tried for a story that I got almost 50,000 words into but ended up quitting. I never investigated how to do omni, I just sat down and spit it out because I thought it would fit the story. An all seeing gods eye or whatever it is. Anyway, about the story, I plan to finish it and rewrite the entire thing one day. Or maybe in my next life. Part of it is posted somewhere on AW in the Mainstream/Contemporary section of Share Your Work. As it stands, I think the draft sucks a big one, which is why I want to do a complete overhaul of it, but I'm not looking forward for that anytime in the foreseeable future. It's my secret baby. I love that story. And it probably won't end up as omni in the rewrite. Of that, I'm almost sure about.

[Anahid21]

This is just my unprofessional opinion with no basis on anything but a one time experiment I tried for a story that I got almost 50,000 words into but ended up quitting. I never investigated how to do omni, I just sat down and spit it out because I thought it would fit the story. An all seeing gods eye or whatever it is. Anyway, about the story, I plan to finish it and rewrite the entire thing one day. Or maybe in my next life. Part of it is posted somewhere on AW in the Mainstream/Contemporary section of Share Your Work. As it stands, I think the draft sucks a big one, which is why I want to do a complete overhaul of it, but I'm not looking forward for that anytime in the foreseeable future. It's my secret baby. I love that story. And it probably won't end up as omni in the rewrite. Of that, I'm almost sure about.

I have a similar situation with a much bigger manuscript. I've realized the story improves leaps and bounds when I changed the viewpoint from omni to 3rd person, so despite all the hurdles and head hoppings for some scenes I'm going to rewrite it in in 3rd person POV.

[John61480]

I have a similar situation with a much bigger manuscript. I've realized the story improves leaps and bounds when I changed the viewpoint from omni to 3rd person, so despite all the hurdles and head hoppings for some scenes I'm going to rewrite it in in 3rd person POV.

I hope it goes well for you. It sounds like you are very sure about what and why you're doing what you're doing. My current fantasy manuscript is using a variety of things I've learned over the years, all culminating into this one project. I've learned some new tricks as well since the summer and for the first time I actually feel good about how it is developing. I even learned a thing or two when I tried omni POV. So anyway, I've got a formula for this new hybrid I'm refining, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's the best I can do with my abilities. Which is why I'm so slow at writing now. It probably won't go far with agents, but until recently I began to feel good about it, so I don't consider it a big failure even if it flops with everyone who reads it. Just an uneducated guess from a nobody trying to have some fun. I expect to use this same style with everything I write from now on. I'm through studying. I leave no stone unturned, not even dialogue escapes my attention now.

The first hint I got on how to write in omni was from a book one of my Aunt's gave me called The Laments. It blew my mind and was the first time I'd ever read something like that POV. That was back in '06 or '07, but I remembered a little about the way it looked, so I used that as a starting point.

I guess I write a somewhat 3rd limited now, that's my guess, maybe with a bit of narrator too. What it probably is by a professional reading is telling. I've never been able to escape that trap no matter how hard I write. How utterly devastating. And I can't understand what the technical terms mean and how it applies no matter how long I stare at definitions. I only know the way it reads and looks on paper or on computer.

Thanks for chatting back.

[Anahid21]

I've learned some new tricks as well since the summer and for the first time I actually feel good about how it is developing. I even learned a thing or two when I tried omni POV. So anyway, I've got a formula for this new hybrid I'm refining, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's the best I can do with my abilities. Which is why I'm so slow at writing now. It probably won't go far with agents, but until recently I began to feel good about it, so I don't consider it a big failure even if it flops with everyone who reads it. Just an uneducated guess from a nobody trying to have some fun.

Sometimes for a novel to work all it takes is for the writer to feel good about it and have fun. Don't consider it a flop yet. Chances are, if you're enjoying it, so might someone else. And who knows, perhaps along the way you invent a new style. ;)

If you're unsure about 3rd person and worried you may wander into omni territory use this trick I'm planning to use: write the scene in 1st person at first, then in the revision change it to 3rd person. There will be very little chance of slipping into "telling" if you are limited to your character's POV.

[John61480]

It's not a new style, only formulaic. The key for me knowing I succeeded where I always failed before: It can make pictures in my mind as I read it.

Like magic.

But only in my mind. Yet, if it works on other people, hooray.

After I get the Alphasmart Neo or Dana, I'm going to begin writing throughout the day and stop perusing AW as often as I have been recently. It'll be months before that happens. Right now, I get up at 1 or 2 am and I allow myself to write up until 8:30am. It'll probably take me up to 5 years maybe to finish 90,000 words. No editing required. I'm egotistical when I look over my own stuff. A crazy man in a cave somewhere in the desert. I'm just excited that's all. I'll stop derailing the thread.

Omni is a comfortable read. The book called The Laments almost made me cry when I read the ending. I felt I got to know the family, which is what it was about. And it was all done with omni POV, not anything fancy and deep.

[Cliff Face]

"Right now, I get up at 1 or 2 am and I allow myself to write up until 8:30am."

So let's say you get up at 1.30 and that's 7 hours of writing. I did less than 7 hours a day during NaNo and made it to 102k in a month. I don't think this will take you 5 years... editing to make it perfect could well take that long, it depends on how much you want it to sparkle before you send it out, but I expect with 7 hours of writing a day you'll not take 5 years.

Relax, this is good news. :)

[John61480]

"Right now, I get up at 1 or 2 am and I allow myself to write up until 8:30am."

So let's say you get up at 1.30 and that's 7 hours of writing. I did less than 7 hours a day during NaNo and made it to 102k in a month. I don't think this will take you 5 years... editing to make it perfect could well take that long, it depends on how much you want it to sparkle before you send it out, but I expect with 7 hours of writing a day you'll not take 5 years.

Relax, this is good news. :)

And when I get the alphasmart, I'll be working during the day in addition to the morning hours up until 3 or 4 in the afternoon. With of course 40 minute walk breaks, dumbell workouts three days a week, lunch break, anything to help my dad around the house (very biggie and time consuming) or shop for food every other day or do errands, bills, phone calls, doctors appointments ( I have one every other week plus a case manager I meet with often) or mow the lawn every four days in the spring and summer etc etc.

I hate staring at the computer monitor. It's like TV that I'm staring at as I think. Or video games. It irritates me, which is why I think the alphasmart could be my salvation for more output for words. I'd be playing endless video games on it with words without getting any irritation or annoyance. A cute toy I can curl up with in bed or on a bench somewhere near a bunch of sage brush or anywhere I feel like it.

I'll throw in another thing about omni so I don't feel like I'm wasting space. If you notice, some omni could actually be set back in distance, rather than forward, like the book I remembered reading called The Laments which I only have a memory of. I could be wrong though. Take what I mention with a grain of salt. So obviously, narration is a lot bigger tip than it might appear when I originally mentioned it. In fact, it's probably essential that narration be really honed to a good level in order to really make it fun to read. But the question is, is it talk or not? I think it isn't talk. Stephen King said good writing is talk. On the other hand, that's a good way to say it for a dummy like me to understand. Yet after spending some time to think about it, it's also a good way for writers to get into trouble. Narrating and talking are two different things, but again, really good stuff fools you. I've been fooled many times and I still am tricked into believing what published authors write when they narrate and show what they are saying through it. So when doing omni, starting with a voice, in my opinion could be a good way to begin. But then there's the dreaded telling. What can an amateur writer do then? It happens more often than writers probably realize. But its in the way it is presented that distinguishes it from the rest of the pack. But still, I have no working clue, I'm still working that one in my mind when I want to think about it. I don't think I'll ever get a solid answer to it. I wasn't born with a working brain that could figure that out. Even if someone were to figure it out, or at least think they know the answer, the truth is, you have to be able to perform it like they do. Very hard if you compare side by side printouts of stuff. And not only that, you have to be able to perform it at will when you want to. That's not easy, knowing and doing are also two different things. So that's my last spin on omni. I never bothered to look into it that much since I was interested in other stuff. There's only so much time, so I concentrate on whatever I had invested more time in rather than in something new.

And yes. 5 years to finish is an honest estimate. In a space of say 3-4 hours, I feel good if I get 100 words finished. I take time to think about what happens next. I decide if I'm going to use certain imagery here or there. A little bit of this or that. I'm building it at one piece at a time. It's the only way possible with what I want to do. In other words, I'm a bad writer who needs a good excuse to try art, not try and earn money as quick as I can. I already thought about that, I could have just written at a normal speed and done the normal stuff and submitted by now, but, but, but, well, I think I've taken up enough word space in this thread. I feel retarded.

[Rushie]

I hate staring at the computer monitor. It's like TV that I'm staring at as I think. Or video games. It irritates me, which is why I think the alphasmart could be my salvation for more output for words. I'd be playing endless video games on it with words without getting any irritation or annoyance. A cute toy I can curl up with in bed or on a bench somewhere near a bunch of sage brush or anywhere I feel like it.



Oh yes, the Alphasmart is my salvation. I can't write fiction at the computer. Let me sit outside in the sun with that Neo. I think you'll love it.

[Lady Ice]

I personally like 3rd person better than omni because it lets the reader get closer to the environment of the story. However I'm writing an epic fantasy where in many parts, the action happens without the main character. So here is my question. How do you handle scenes like this:

-The MC goes to a room where he meets the commander of the kingdom's army. They talk. (obviously MC's POV)

-The MC leaves the room. (Still MC's POV)

-While the commander is putting his papers away someone knocks on the door. It's his second in command with very important news. This news will change the course of the story. (Who's POV now???)

Does a situation like this demand a story be told from an omni POV? Or can I hop in the commander's head just for that scene?

I think you need omniscient. Omniscient does make you close to the story- you as writer can choose whatever you want to show in omni.
Whose story is it? Is it the MC's story? Or the story of the world? We'd get a better flavour of this world if you did it in omni.

[HConn]

In a space of say 3-4 hours, I feel good if I get 100 words finished.

o.0

[Anahid21]

epic fantasy
I think you need omniscient. Omniscient does make you close to the story- you as writer can choose whatever you want to show in omni.
Whose story is it? Is it the MC's story? Or the story of the world? We'd get a better flavour of this world if you did it in omni.

You may have an excellent point there. It could be considered the story of the world. I have a main character, but he shares the stage with his sister throughout (you can say I have two main characters,) and a few other characters later on. The lot of them end up influencing a major event that becomes part of the kingdom's history.

I'm not sure what to do . The way it's written now is omni but it was rejected by an agent particularly because of that. And that was the only agent who gave me feedback. She could have had a problem with the writing though and mistakenly blamed the mode.

So what about the idea of doing 3rd person limited in scenes that involve major characters (pick the most important character in the scene) and omni for scenes without them?

[blacbird]

Omniscient does make you close to the story- you as writer can choose whatever you want to show in omni.

You as writer can choose whatever you want to show in any other POV. All that differs is the mechanics of how you do it.

The siren-song shoal that wrecks a lot of manuscripts in omni-third is this illusion of POV "freedom".

caw

[John61480]

o.0

Ha, if you want to see the results of all the hours and days spent on such little progress, I posted my fantasy excerpt in the scifi/fantasy forum in the Share Your Work area. If your curious that is. I figure I said more than I should have so I might as well own up to it and not be so darn sure of myself. Writing is only fun if there is someone to read it, its no fun when its all locked up and hidden away. It's only 322 words, so its short, not much but a simple world beginning before the action begins closer on the second page and some is already written back in my Microsoft Word, just not finalized yet. But what I posted is only an excerpt.

Fair warning, it has nothing to do with omni other than what I learned and that I wanted to have a voice like I tried using in my only omni story that I wrote. That got the ball rolling for me.

[wittyusernamehere]

Hi gothicangel! I was struggling with the same type of question, and I felt like this page was really helpful to me because I could hold up my idea of what I wanted the story to look like against the examples of different viewpoints:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_mode

When I started, I was really shying away from omni, but when I read the descriptions, I realized it was the best fit for what I wanted to do. From there, I really thought about how I wanted to box my omni guy in so that he didn't sprawl into some all-seeing-all-telling-no-showing creature.

Hope this helps!

[Albannach]

The problem with omni is that it may put you close to the world but it distances you from the characters and most people care more about the characters than the world you've made up.

So that can be a problem. Not saying it can't be done successfully because it can. But frankly, it isn't often.