What Makes it Adult?

[Hedgetrimmer]

I know there have been some adult novels written with children or teenagers as the main characters, but what exactly makes them more suited for the adult market rather than middle grade or young adult?

[Kathleen42]

That's a hard question.

I think there are a few factors. Style and pace are, I think, two of the biggest. Pace is often much quicker in YA books than it is in adult. There's also a tendency towards themes of growth and change in YA -- perhaps a little more obviously than in adult books.

I think, in many cases, people just sort of feel whether something is YA or adult. I recently reread the first chapter of Cujo for story research. It's told from a child's point of view but if you printed out those pages and gave them to me without any context, I would still know I was reading an adult book.

[Hedgetrimmer]

I have an MG that I've been thinking about rewriting as an adult book. I don't know how doable it is, but I'm trying to get a feel of what types of changes I would need to make. I certainly understand when you say pacing is different. Adult books read so much "slower" than juvenile works.

[Charlie Horse]

There's a thin line that grow's thinner all the time with the young adults of today becoming more savvy at everything including the type of material they read. But for a book to fit into one of two categories the voice will differ as teens do have their own special way of communicating. I agree with Kathleen. YA has to move at a quicker pace while adult books can be more wordy. That's why YA word counts are lower. As far as theme goes, however, these days almost everything is on the table.

[SPMiller]

MG and YA books deal with MG and YA issues (school drama, sex, drugs, divorce from child's perspective, coming-of-age, etc.).

Adult books deal with adult issues (responsibilities, holding down a job, raising a family, divorce from an adult's perspective, etc.).

[Phaeal]

It's becoming a more and more subjective judgment, given the sophistication of the modern YA book and its audience. Audiences, I should say, as many old adults enjoy young adult fiction.

The Borders I frequent has the right idea. It's moved the YA section right next to the OA section, making it very easy for the YAs and OAs to wander back and forth between the two.

If I had to pin down the differences, I'd venture they depend on:

-- Sensibility, which is the author's attitude toward the material. What does he emphasize? Does he seem to be looking at the story from the distance of maturity or from the heat of adolescence? What words does the author choose? What are his cadences? Yeah, it could get into minutiae.

-- Voice, which springs the narrator's sensibility and mental/verbal quirks.

-- Inclusion and handling of adult characters.

At one point I was thinking that a novel centered on overwrought relationships (or "ships") could tip over to YA. But then, lots of OA fiction centers on overwrought relationships, a la Tolstoy's unhappy families. So I'm not relying on the ship factor so much, per se. Maybe the attitudes toward the ships, which would fall under sensibility and voice above.

[Hedgetrimmer]

MG and YA books deal with MG and YA issues (school drama, sex, drugs, divorce from child's perspective, coming-of-age, etc.).

Adult books deal with adult issues (responsibilities, holding down a job, raising a family, divorce from an adult's perspective, etc.).That sounds just a bit too tidy. An adult book narrated by a 14-year-old will still deal with 14-year-old issues, but there's another layer that puts it into another category.

[Maxinquaye]

I'd say - don't worry about it. I'm revising a book with a 14-year old boy that some say is YA but which instinct tells me is adult. That instinct is very nebulous, so I just call my book mainstream fiction now. I'll let the agents and publishers sort the categorisation out, if the book is accepted.

[Hedgetrimmer]

Sensibility and voice.

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I imagine that's what Kathleen was responding to in reading Cujo. It was told through a kid's POV but with a style and tone that suggested something outside the realm of typical juvenile fiction.

[Kathleen42]

That sounds just a bit too tidy. An adult book narrated by a 14-year-old will still deal with 14-year-old issues, but there's another layer that puts it into another category.

Wasn't sure if that was a serious comment or not. There are adult books where a portion (or all) of the narrative is coming from a teen or child -- either the narrator at an early stage in their life or a character which is younger.

She's Come Undone
The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao (I've heard - I've not read the book but I have read the short story the book grew out of)
About a Boy (narrative split between the adult Will and the teenage Marcus)
The Body (which I haven't read but which comes up frequently in these discussions)

Just a couple of examples. Many more, I am sure.

[Hedgetrimmer]

I'd say - don't worry about it. I'm revising a book with a 14-year old boy that some say is YA but which instinct tells me is adult. That instinct is very nebulous, so I just call my book mainstream fiction now. I'll let the agents and publishers sort the categorisation out, if the book is accepted.That's a good way to look at it. I sometimes over-think a project to the point of paralysis.

[Kathleen42]

Sensibility and voice.

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I imagine that's what Kathleen was responding to in reading Cujo. It was told through a kid's POV but with a style and tone that suggested something outside the realm of typical juvenile fiction.

Exactly what my sleep deprived brain was getting at :)

[veinglory]

The complexity or "reading age" of the text can also be a factor. YA is normally written to an appropriate grade level, adult fiction need not be.

[SPMiller]

My comment was serious.

[Toothpaste]

That sounds just a bit too tidy. An adult book narrated by a 14-year-old will still deal with 14-year-old issues, but there's another layer that puts it into another category.

Actually no, I'd say that an adult book about a 14 yearold still deals with adult issues, simply filtered through the lens of a 14 yearold. It's a complicated idea, and it doesn't mean that the 14 yearold isn't going through 14 yearold issues.

I have to ask though, why do you want to make your MG adult? I always worry when people say that that they feel limited by what they can discuss in MG. MG actually allows for a lot, and I feel sometimes people don't realise that. If you have a good reason to make your MG adult, go for it. But understand that there is a change, that you aren't writing about 14 yearold issues anymore, that they become a metaphor for greater things in life, for adult problems. You can't just write a complex MG with words you wouldn't usually use and ideas that kids wouldn't get. There is a whole shift in tone and subject matter.

[Chris P]

Young adult books are more driven by situation than by characters--get off the island versus overcome complex internal issues. Internal issues in YA are typically more clear-cut; rival romances, addiction, rotten family issues. Adult books have more subtle conflicts. In short, the issues the readers are likely to be dealing with.

Of course this isn't completely true, as adult books are getting more straightforward as adult readers expect books to feel like movies (<rant> people tend to write screenplays instead of novels </rant>). It is indeed a thin line that changes, as has been said.

[Hedgetrimmer]

The Body (which I haven't read but which comes up frequently in these discussions)

Is that Stephen King's work that was remade as Stand By Me?

[Hedgetrimmer]

I have to ask though, why do you want to make your MG adult? I always worry when people say that that they feel limited by what they can discuss in MG. MG actually allows for a lot, and I feel sometimes people don't realise that. If you have a good reason to make your MG adult, go for it. But understand that there is a change, that you aren't writing about 14 yearold issues anymore, that they become a metaphor for greater things in life, for adult problems. You can't just write a complex MG with words you wouldn't usually use and ideas that kids wouldn't get. There is a whole shift in tone and subject matter.In no way do I feel that MG is limiting. It's a wonderful genre. But I've been rewriting this book for nearly three years now, and with each draft it seems to morph into something that's less and less MG in terms of voice, metaphor, symbolism and underlying themes. The basic bones of the original story are still there, but the skin it now wears is becoming markedly different.

[Rarri]

Perspective, perhaps? Interestingly i was reading The Deathly Hallows earlier which (i think) transcends age but is very different being read by an adult than by a child; both take away something different from the same story.

[Alpha Echo]

As far as theme goes, however, these days almost everything is on the table.

I agree with this. I have read two YA books recently, back to back, that I had no idea were even YA books b/c the theme in each was so, well, adult. Very heavy stuff, especially the first book.

What is the age range usually for YA?

[Hedgetrimmer]

What is the age range usually for YA?As far as readership, 14-18.

[Kitty Pryde]

check out these two articles:
how teenagers are different from kids and adults: http://need2bpublished.blogspot.com/2009/08/writing-for-teenagers.html
and defining the teenage novel http://need2bpublished.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-what-is-teenage-novel.html This one discusses books about teens that are adult books, vs books about teens that are YA books

[Alpha Echo]

As far as readership, 14-18.

Really? See, there's no way the book I read...no way I'd let my daughter read it at 14. 16-18 maybe, but...it didn't feel like a YA at all.

[Hedgetrimmer]

Thanks for the links, Kitty. I'll definitely check them out.

Echo, I'm sure a lot of parents feel the same way as you. YA has become increasingly more encompassing of mature themes over recent years.

[gothicangel]

That sounds just a bit too tidy. An adult book narrated by a 14-year-old will still deal with 14-year-old issues, but there's another layer that puts it into another category.

Think The Lovely Bones (Alice Sebold)

Deals with child rape/murder and the fallout. Yet the description of Heaven is very much from the imagination of a 14 year old girl.

[Sevvy]

I think you can tell the same story to two different audiences. "Adult" stuff happens to kids too, they're not immune from issues of love, hate, anger, pain. They get hurt (and worse), they get scared, and they accomplish and achieve things.

Thinking about the YA novels I've read versus the adult, a big difference is the intended (not actual) audience. Think of a story, and imagine telling it to an adult. Then imagine telling it to a teenager. You'd use different words, different style of speaking, leave some things out, re-phrase some things, and include other things. While writing your story, imagine the audience you want to read it, it might help you when you're stuck between "is this YA or adult"?

[Fillanzea]

YA has changed a lot in this decade, to include books targeted at the upper end of high school--16, 17, 18. I can conceive of some of Stephen King's books being published as YA if they'd been published now instead of 20+ years ago--what about Carrie, for example? Is To Kill A Mockingbird YA? Would it get published that way if it were published this year? I think we have to throw earlier books out of the discussion because lines were drawn differently then.

That said, one thing that seems to separate YA books from adult books about teenagers is a sense of perspective in time. Adult books about teenagers are often told by an adult looking back on his adolescence, whereas YA books are almost always very much in the present moment. That sense of perspective--what I know now, that I didn't know then--makes a huge difference to the tone of the book.

[Lady Ice]

I know there have been some adult novels written with children or teenagers as the main characters, but what exactly makes them more suited for the adult market rather than middle grade or young adult?

Darker themes, deeper social and political context (i.e. you would need to know more about the setting than YA). Believable adult characters.

[fov]

I wrote a novel with a 17 year old protagonist that I thought was adult. Didn't occur to me that it might be YA until I started sending it to agents. They cited a lack of perspective on the character's situation. It takes place in present tense and she doesn't have the maturity or life experience to reflect back on what's happening to her from an adult point of view. If she did, it would be easier to position it as an adult novel.

In the Lovely Bones, the character is 14, but because of her situation she has a wisdom that other 14-year-olds wouldn't. Other books with teenage protagonists have them looking back on the story years later, or they're very precocious and able to talk about their situation in an adult way. (Prep is an example of this, although I've seen that book in the YA section of some bookstores!)

[Hedgetrimmer]

Yet the description of Heaven is very much from the imagination of a 14 year old girl.Interesting you should mention this. In the early drafts of the book, there is very slight reference to heaven, God and issues of faith. One agent said despite the strength of the writing, she had to decline because she thought the religious themes (no matter how underlying) would make the book too difficult to place in the juvenile market.

These themes are actually more pronounced in the current draft, and rather than trying to find a way to get around them, I'm beginning to explore them on a deeper level.

[*RomanceWriter*]

One that pops in my head is Lullabies For Little Criminals. The protag is 12/13 and it is a very adult read.
There is such a variety in YA books. Some are sweet, while others are erasing the boundaries into adult with language, sex and sensitive subjects.

[suki]

Really? See, there's no way the book I read...no way I'd let my daughter read it at 14. 16-18 maybe, but...it didn't feel like a YA at all.

Something to remember about YA and MG is that the genres are often defined by a broad age range, but not every MG book is appropriate for every reader in the broad, categorical age range, and the same for YA.

So, while YA is defined as for, generally, a target readership encompassing 14-18 year olds, not all YA books are appropriate for all 14 year olds. It's a marketing term, not a stamp of approval or age appropriateness.

Same in MG - what is appropriate for the average 12 year old is different than what is appropriate for the average 8 year old, and there are always the more specific question of what is approrpiate for the specific young reader.


As for the original post, I think it's a complicated process to properly define some books that are on the cusp of YA/Adult. Some books are obviously one or the other, and you can find long posts and reasons why elsewhere on AW and elsewhere on the web.

But I think Phaeal's post was a good start at defining those things beyond age of the MC/narrative voice that may influence the book's classification as YA or adult when it's close.

For me, I think the immediateness of the adolescent perspective will often cause some books to be YA, regardless of all other factors.

And sometimes it's a shifting landscape. For example, The Lovely Bones was published as an adult book, and I think I would probably also, if it were my decision, classify it as adult - mainly because I don't think it really does have an immediate adolescent perspective, despite the age of the MC and her at times adolescent actions. But, regardless of the fact that it was published as an adult book, it did/does show up on some teen reading lists and teen award lists, as I recall.

So...write whatever the story requires, then query it widely, as an adult book to agents who represent adult books, and as YA to agents who represent YA, and as one or the other, your call, to agents who represent both. And see who bites.

~suki

[Maxinquaye]

Well, I wouldn't really bother about it. Remember, Junk/Smack by Melvyn Burgess was a YA book, and what does it deal with? Two fourteen-year-olds that get hooked on heroin, and where the female character turns to prostitution to fed her habit. They also crawl over dead people to rob them to get money for smack.

[Hedgetrimmer]

So...write whatever the story requires, then query it widely, as an adult book to agents who represent adult books, and as YA to agents who represent YA, and as one or the other, your call, to agents who represent both. And see who bites.

~suki

Yeah, that's basically where I am. I have the MG version currently out on submission, but I'm also messing around with some of the themes and interactions on a deeper level that really do seem more appropriate for older readers. Besides, writing another draft never seems to hurt anything.