Pointless dialogue versus "telling"

[Chris P]

My characters are visiting Egypt, and the places they visit require some "telling" rather than "showing." I'm at a loss for how to describe what the characters see and the history of the Pyramids, Tut's Tomb, etc. without too much telling.

The best way seems to be to put as much as possible into dialogue, but that soon degenerates into a character reading the guidebook aloud, or their tour guide giving windy explanations. Is it better to do some telling here rather than pointless dialogue? And if so, what would be a good size keep the telling under? Maybe 500 word blocks with short dialogue (five or ten lines) connecting?

[ChaosTitan]

Descriptions of what the characters are seeing as they visit Egypt is fine, and it's not telling. But unless the audience knowing the history of the Pyramids is necessary to the plot, you don't have to give us the entire rundown.

[gothicangel]

This reminds me of reading Tess Gerittsen's latest. She went off on a spiel about Egyptian mummification techniques.

I left it there, I didn't care who 'dunnit' after that.

[Sevvy]

Yeah, unless understanding the history of these places is absolutely necessary to the plot, you can probably just leave it at describing what they're seeing.

If it is necessary, then you'll want to break it up, leave out as much as you can get away with, and share when you have to, not in a giant expository chunk at the beginning, because your readers might not remember that archaic fact about Tut's tomb from page 10 by the time they get to page 50. If page 50 is where they need the information, then give it to them on page 49.

[Lady Ice]

My characters are visiting Egypt, and the places they visit require some "telling" rather than "showing." I'm at a loss for how to describe what the characters see and the history of the Pyramids, Tut's Tomb, etc. without too much telling.

The best way seems to be to put as much as possible into dialogue, but that soon degenerates into a character reading the guidebook aloud, or their tour guide giving windy explanations. Is it better to do some telling here rather than pointless dialogue? And if so, what would be a good size keep the telling under? Maybe 500 word blocks with short dialogue (five or ten lines) connecting?

Why do we care about the history of the Pyramids? Only include information when it is relevant to the present action in the novel.

[Chris P]

This reminds me of reading Tess Gerittsen's latest. She went off on a spiel about Egyptian mummification techniques.

I left it there, I didn't care who 'dunnit' after that.

Thanks for the reminder! Dennis L. McKiernan (one of my favorite writers) went into painful depth on dog sledding, which was interesting in itself but tedious to the story.

[cbenoi1]

If the information is crucial, there there is no way around exposing that information in one way or another. As others pointed out, you can go through narration, disseminating the information throughout the story, or go through the painful step of showing their visit.

Another way would be to have a frame story where - say - an archeologist in some distant future explains the intricacies of egyptology to a student and then goes on in telling a related story his father had some years ago. Then you open up to your real story. You can make that frame story as engaging as you want, even encapsulate whatever prologue/epilogue you had planned. Take the movie Amadeus as an example, where the frame story is told from the POV of Salieri. Same with Interview with the Vampire where the interview with the reporter is the frame story.

-cb

[kuatolives]

Check out one of Elmore Leonard's books; he is very good at blending telling and showing. The best example of his I can think of is the first forty pages of GET SHORTY. There's enough 'stuff' (and good stuff) happening there to fill 5 novels if you were to show it all.

[BigWords]

What may be seen as "pointless" dialogue can reveal some very important things about character. Who talks too much? Who says the wrong thing at the wrong time? Who has an opinion on everything? The small moments can mean as much as the larger image of the character.

[Albannach]

But if it reveals something about the character then it's not pointless.

If it is of the: As you know, Hedley, we were just hit by a neutron bomb and will die in two minutes... variety, and you really need it either FIND some way to show it or just TELL it.

If there is anything that sticks out worse than bad dialogue, I'd be hard pressed to think of it and I prefer good telling to bad dialogue any time.

[Chris P]

With dialogue to break up description:

++++
The bus labored as it climbed the tarmac road and stopped between the two largest pyramids; Khufu’s to the right and Khafre’s to the left. With a hiss of airbrakes the bus doors opened and the passengers poured out.

Ricky could taste the perfume from the blue-haired old ladies as he and the other three stepped off the bus. Immediately the tourists were barraged with offers of donkey and camel rides, bargains on guide books, or even personal tours by locals who knew the area and everything about it.

“Oh, my God, they’re huge!” Tracy chattered excitedly as she shaded her eyes to look up.

“Aren’t they though?” Derek replied, snapping pictures.

Ricky was momentarily intoxicated; the realization of where he was, the sights, the shouted touts and the incessant sunshine that penetrated deep into his skin. Peter snapped some pictures as well, trying to look aloof and failing at it.

“Let’s go in,” Derek said, pointing to the ticket line.

++++

And without:

++++

The bus labored slightly as it climbed the tarmac road to the base of the two largest pyramids; Khufu’s to the right and Khafre’s to the left. From this angle, Ricky could not see the top of either pyramid, as massive as they were.

With a hiss of airbrakes the bus stopped and let the passengers off. Ricky could taste the perfume from the blue-haired old ladies as he stepped off the bus. Immediately the tourists were barraged with offers of donkey and camel rides, bargains on guide books, or even personal tours by locals who knew the area and everything about it.

Derek and Tracy chattered excitedly to each other, snapping pictures and pointing. Ricky was intoxicated with the knowledge of where he was; the sights around him, the shouted touts and the incessant sunshine that penetrated deep into his skin. Peter looked around, seemingly trying to remain aloof but obviously impressed nonetheless.

Because only a limited number of tickets for Khufu’s pyramid were sold each day, they got in that line first. They were eventually successful, but not until after a long wait in the rapidly warming sunshine. An unexpected benefit was that the ticket vendor accepted Peter’s and Tracy’s student IDs for a discount on the tickets.

++++

Great comments all.

[blacbird]

Re: The pyramids and other Egyptian antiquities: These places are so famous and so ubiquitously illustrated and described that there's hardly anyone on the planet who doesn't feel like they've actually been there. Unless your characters come up against something really unusual, you probably need to do very little in the way of description.

As for "pointless" dialogue, it falls in the same category as "pointless" anything else in your writing. Something to get rid of with a chainsaw.

caw

[Fillanzea]

If it's crucial to the plot, you can find some way to put some conflict into it, and to make it have a point. A lecture isn't any less boring because it has quote marks around it.

My WIP has a long section of "let me tell you about my life." But through the course of the speech being delivered, my main character is trying to make decisions about whether she should trust the guy who says he's in love with her, and what she should do about the person who's putting her life in danger. Conflict.

[jasonleeward]

You can certainly use all three, but keep perspective of what the scene needs and then balance these. When describing historical landmarks dialogue will be effective, but having the characters, and therefore the readers, seeing it for themselves is more convincing.

[Jamesaritchie]

Write these scenes the way you like to read such scenes. You don't have to tell just because it's description. Descrption is teh easiest place to use show. It's all in teh language you use.

Now, personally, I prefer it when writers do go into such things as mummification techniques and history. Without it, the book usually bores me to tears, and tells me the writer probably did his research with a map and a tourist guide, and may as well be setting the story in Peduka.

Setting is important, and so is teh history, the culture, and the setails of the setting.

[lucidzfl]

I see nothing wrong with "Telling" in terms of descriptions. Some of the most beautiful and eloquent pieces of literature are simply descriptions.


Edit 1: You don't need to describe it in dialog and you don't have to have your character performing perfunctory, pointless actions just to get the description across.

Edit 2: "Show don't tell" most often refers to actions or character specifics. "Pete thought Susie was cute". Is a character based "Tell".
"Pete ran into the house." is an action based "Tell".

[Libbie]

Chris, your first example with "telling" read just fine to me. It wasn't obvious. When I read your first post in this thread, I thought you were going to go into how and who and why the pyramids were built, even if it had nothing to do with your story. However, just mentioning Kufu and Khafre doesn't really qualify as a pointless info-dump in my mind.

The only thing I didn't like about it was the dialogue tags. ;)

[lucidzfl]

Chris, your first example with "telling" read just fine to me. It wasn't obvious. When I read your first post in this thread, I thought you were going to go into how and who and why the pyramids were built, even if it had nothing to do with your story. However, just mentioning Kufu and Khafre doesn't really qualify as a pointless info-dump in my mind.

The only thing I didn't like about it was the dialogue tags. ;)

Agreed. It read fine. Theres nothing wrong with three or four lines of "telling" description to give the reader a frame of reference and an image of the scene. I'd rather do that than shoehorn it into dialog.

[Chris P]

My book has a word count problem, and cutting description is the easiest way to remove large blocks of "telling" text. Perhaps the example I posted wasn't very good, as in other places I do explain how things were built. I try to keep such explanations to under 500 words, but there is a lot of Africa to describe!

Now, personally, I prefer it when writers do go into such things as mummification techniques and history. Without it, the book usually bores me to tears, and tells me the writer probably did his research with a map and a tourist guide, and may as well be setting the story in Peduka.

I agree. In the shortened version, I feel like I've cut out the feeling of "having been there." I can have a beautiful, realistic book or I can have a published book. At 200K words, those are my options.

[lucidzfl]

My book has a word count problem, and cutting description is the easiest way to remove large blocks of "telling" text. Perhaps the example I posted wasn't very good, as in other places I do explain how things were built. I try to keep such explanations to under 500 words, but there is a lot of Africa to describe!



I agree. In the shortened version, I feel like I've cut out the feeling of "having been there." I can have a beautiful, realistic book or I can have a published book. At 200K words, those are my options.

Holy DAMN! 200K words?

I'd think about if you really need that much plot to be honest. Unless you're rambling on like Marion Zimmer Bradley for pages and pages describing a mountain, maybe too much shit happens in your book?

[Chris P]

Holy DAMN! 200K words?

I'd think about if you really need that much plot to be honest. Unless you're rambling on like Marion Zimmer Bradley for pages and pages describing a mountain, maybe too much shit happens in your book?

Now you see why I'm wanting to cut as much as I can :)

They go too many places. They start in Egypt and continue south to Johannesburg. I'm halfway through Sudan and have cut about 15K of description and incidental scenes, and I have several more that I will cut when I get to them. I'm hoping someone will bite if I get it below 150K, although that's still about twice a typical first novel. The last resort is a radical restructuring, and it looks like it might come to that.

[Jamesaritchie]

I agree. In the shortened version, I feel like I've cut out the feeling of "having been there." I can have a beautiful, realistic book or I can have a published book. At 200K words, those are my options.

You can not only have both, good books almost always do have both. It's all in how you handle it.