Books or Flicks?!

[NikeeGoddess]

it doesn't matter. yes many.....most consider books better than movies. but, sometimes movies are better than books. it's not a competition but, we screenwriters love flicks more than books. a good story is a good story whether it's written and read or seen on the screen but, everything seen on the screen must be written and read first. so read!

you book writers love books more than flicks but, you still pay $9 to see a movie on the big screen. we want you to get your money's worth. tell us what you would pay to see by voting in the screenwriter's competition. not knowing or understanding scriptwriting is no excuse. just try and picture what you read. if you can picture it on the big screen then.....VOTE! and have a nice day ;)

NG




p.s.
joe has done a great job with prizes in excess of $1000. Wow!!! don't have sour grapes b/c the winner of the idol contest did not get such a prize. they just didn't have the great marketer working it but, joe needs you all to participate to encourage him to do the same for the next idol contest.....which btw treated the scripts like 2nd class stories :(

[StephieM]

I don't think the "book" writers are purposely not voting out of dislike for scripts or out of jealousy. I just think that some writers aren't as familiar with a scripts as they are with their own interest. It may be the first time any of them have even looked at a script. When I first read a script it was very difficult to get into. Like Joe said, it's a lot of reading. And for someone who hasn't read a script before it would probally be very intimidating. Another problem could probally be that members in other forums may not be as clued in on the contest as we'd like them to be. It wasn't until I took an "off the beaten path" trip to the Novel forum to realize they were having a contest, even though there were announcements and reminders everywhere. But I did take out the time to read through them and vote. For this reason I went and posted my own reminder message on the other boards. Sorry Joe, sorry office- :o I wouldn't recommend anyone doing this. Anyway I don't think the blame should be pointed to the other boards but rather our own. I know there is far more members on the screenwriting forum then just twenty. Over 600 views and only 20 votes? Come on, where's the support? I know some of you are taking your time, and that's good. But for those of you just taking a peak and moving on, like some of you reading this post right now, come on. Show some forum spirit! The entrants need you, read an entry a day, take your time, but pleeeeeease vote. To some of us, it's just not a contest in order to win cool stuff, although that's a big part :) . But an oppurtunity to see for ourselves wether or not we're cut out for the script writing industry. So please take the time and vote. You don't have to vote today or tomorrow or the next day, but we do need your votes.

Thanks to all of those who have already voted!

Steph

[dpaterso]

not knowing or understanding scriptwriting is no excuse. just try and picture what you read. if you can picture it on the big screen then.....VOTE!

Dammit, why didn't I think of that?? So simple!

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

The Absolute Write Ultimate Screenwriting Challenge Contest
Rules & Prizes (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18151)
Read the Entries for Task 1 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18170)
1st voting period extended to midnight on Saturday, October 1st.

[Joe Calabrese]

Nice signature derek.

[StephieM]

Hey, how do you do that link thing? :Wha:

Steph

[JennaGlatzer]

Okay, NG, now you're just pissing me off...

Don't insult the Idol contest AND me (the "marketer," better known as the contest organizer) because of your own "sour grapes."

There are reminders to vote ALL OVER the forums. The Idol folks weren't thrilled with the voter turnout, either. You can't force people to spend time doing something they don't feel like doing. Some will care, some won't. Best we can do is to make sure we're publicizing the vote-- WHICH WE ARE, plenty, without hounding people, annoying them, or insulting them in the process!

[Annabanana]

I for one would rather have people who understand screenplays and the elements that goes into one that is good voting than people who don't know the genre. Maybe if it were a full script where you could read for story, but in just 10 pages... thumbs down. They don't know what to look for.

In any event, there is no need to bash other contests, etc.

And let's be real here, no matter how well a script does in this contest it won't help any of us determine didly squat how well we'll do in the industry. Aside from Joe, who here is a produced writer? Or even optioned writer? Or more importantly a producer of a feature length film or two? Who here works for Universal? WB? Miramax? Disney? Some can't even string two sentences together and have no clue about the industry whatsoever.

Now let's go win some prizes!

Honestly, I'm in it just for the fun of it. I write screenplays because I love it. I love movies. It makes me happy to write them. I get enough money from my day job to take care of my wants and needs, anything I potentially make off of writing is silver lining. Joe could offer but a signature saying the winner is a winner and I'd be just as happy to participate.

[Rainy Night]

I don't think it matters what you write or even if you write. The first round was to write a good hook. I think that if after reading the first ten pages you want to read more then you were hooked.

When I voted that's how I approached it. I voted for the script that had me wanting more.

[StephieM]

"And let's be real here, no matter how well a script does in this contest it won't help any of us determine didly squat how well we'll do in the industry."

I agree and I disagree Anna. The tasks given are based on real working conditions of the screenwriting industry. Just completing the tasks on schedule is a big step, atleast to me- someone who never thought she'd work well with a deadline. It's a learning experience definitly, and an oppurtunity to have a try at it and get some kind of an idea of how it all works and wether or not I'm capable of dealing with that kind of preasure. I'm not going to lie, if I win, it's going to give me one hell of a confidence boost! But that doesn't mean I'm going to rush out there and demand someone to hire me as a screenwriter and say "Hey, you have to hire me, after all, I won the screenwriting contest on the Absolutewrite screenwriting forum." And I'm not going to pretend like I have any better chance than anyone else breaking in.
And if I lose, I'm not just going to throw in the towel and say the heck with it. It just means I have to work just as hard. Sure, it's fun and I'm having a good time and the prizes don't hurt, but to me this is my life, this is what I want to do, and I tend to take it more seriously. We all have our different reasons for participating, none of which are right or wrong. We're all doing what we love to do, and that's what matters. :)

Steph

[NikeeGoddess]

sorry jenna but, don't be so pissed. joe has gotten some fantastic prizes that are so much better than many "paid" contest. it's actually quite incredible. in fact, so incredible that it seems sad that the winners will be chosen by such a low number of voters. i'm sure this is why joe asked us to encourage others to vote. we hadn't heard a peep out of you....until now.
btw, have you supported with your vote? there's a one out of 13 chance that your vote (for mine) might piss you off even more ;) but, that'll be your own doing.

[Joe Calabrese]

It's a good thing the entries are anonymous and only I know who's who.

Jenna. Nikee's entry is number 32. :)

Idol was great and I feel a huge success. It did what I am trying to do here-- encourage writers to think, write more and faster. In other words, get ready for the industry.

To quote Ghostbusters. "I've worked in the private sector and they expect results."

I created this comp because I feel that so many here have a misconception of how the industry works. I hear writers saying it took them years to write one script, how they have a hard time thinking of marketable stories, and they can't understand why producers don't just make films the way the were originally intended. These three tasks address those problems.

By the end of this, I know that you thirteen writers will all be winners. The prizes were just an incentive to join, I just have a knack for getting people to give me free stuff. You will have at the least a new script or two to work towards, be a little faster and hopefully look outside the box for inspiration.

I literally pulled at random, three newspaper articles and you thirteen people came up with some great stuff-- and marketable. I'm serious. Don't let them stand at 12 pages. Finish them.

Annabanana, the sad reality is that producers don't know story, structure, arcs... They know what they like and whether it will make money-- all in the first 12 pages. Reading the rest of the script just confirms it for them. And a voter here who isn't a script writer is just as qualified as a producer, maybe more so because they aren't making money from it.

I am nothing compared to some members here. I know for a fact we have at least seven produced writers. But their advice is just as good or bad as anyone else here.

That's enough pontificating. I'm not making any money off this.

[NikeeGoddess]

see now joe - if you had gotten a new jaguar as a prize (for next to last place) i might just have had entered. oh well!

[StephieM]

sorry jenna but, don't be so pissed. joe has gotten some fantastic prizes that are so much better than many "paid" contest. it's actually quite incredible. in fact, so incredible that it seems sad that the winners will be chosen by such a low number of voters. i'm sure this is why joe asked us to encourage others to vote. we hadn't heard a peep out of you....until now.
btw, have you supported with your vote? there's a one out of 13 chance that your vote (for mine) might piss you off even more ;) but, that'll be your own doing.

I think Jenna's last post was more of a warning, but I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

I think if we want to see any future contests on this forum, which I hope,
we ought to keep our not so nice opinions to ourselves. If I'm not mistaken, Jenna is the one who okay'd this contest. I think we should be thanking her as well, and not insulting her. Wether or not this contest has better prizes than another contest should not be an issue. Let's not turn our contest into something negative. Sure, it's disappointing that not a lot of people are voting, but hey, that's the way it goes sometimes. We just got to hope for the best, and have fun! So chill out and relax. I don't want to see anyone disqualified or banned.

Steph

[preyer]

this is also the first year for it, right? offer the same prize next year and i bet a lot more people will go for it. not that it's about the prizes, but if i can enter a contest for the fun of it or for the fun of it *with* potential winnings, guess which one i'm going to go for? i wouldn't know, so i ask: other boards devoted solely to screenwriters, do they have contests, too? if so, do they offer real prizes?

for what it's worth, i'd have liked to have tried faking it, but there's just too much going on right now. extended to the first, eh? hm.... prizes, eh?.... madge, eh?....

[preyer]

oh, i see the entries are closed. nevermind. :)

[JennaGlatzer]

sorry jenna but, don't be so pissed. joe has gotten some fantastic prizes that are so much better than many "paid" contest. it's actually quite incredible. in fact, so incredible that it seems sad that the winners will be chosen by such a low number of voters. i'm sure this is why joe asked us to encourage others to vote. we hadn't heard a peep out of you....until now.
btw, have you supported with your vote? there's a one out of 13 chance that your vote (for mine) might piss you off even more ;) but, that'll be your own doing.

NG:

1. I am in no way saying that Joe isn't doing a fabulous job. He is, and came up with great prizes! But I don't see ANY reason to put down another contest on this forum in the process of hyping this one. I worked pretty damn hard to get some great prizes for the Idol contest, too-- did you not see the Idol prizes thread? Books, magazines, website domain and hosting, subscriptions to paid services, etc. And I donated one of the prizes for this screenwriting contest.

2. You hadn't heard a peep out of me? What, pray tell, did you want to hear from me? I listed the contest in the forum calendar and in the Absolute Write Newsletter twice, donated a prize, and of course I'll be voting.

I also counted the votes in the latter rounds of Idol. Can't help but notice you didn't vote.

My comment about "your own sour grapes" refers to your rather off-the-wall statement that screenwriters were treated as second-class citizens in the Idol contest. Out of-- what?-- 307 entries, THREE were screenplay excerpts, and they didn't make the top 10. I don't think that's surprising. It doesn't show any kind of bias whatsoever-- it just shows that the judges didn't think those three entries were among the best 10 entries. This is trying to find prejudice where there is none.

As far as I'm aware, Joe and I are not in competition here.

[Optimus]

I didn't vote.


I don't feel bad about that, either.

[Annabanana]

Joe, I sort of disagree with that. Producers do know what to look for in a script as that's their day to day, their life blood is in finding projects that will make them money. If a producer reads something, their experience and business accumen will make them a better of judge of what will make money and what won't. The main thing is to go beyond one's own taste and to think for a target market. I don't think even close to being as qualified to judge a screenplay as let's say Jerry Bruckheimer. I've even taken classes in marketing, producing, and screenwriting, but the fact of the matter is I'm not in the industry so I really don't have the same skill that guys who are doing this day in and day out do. That's the point that I was trying to make to Steph as to using the contest to gauge how well someone would do in the industry. Anyone who sits down and gives it a good go can write a decent 10 pages or a synopsis. I've heard of readers who have wanted to quit after the first 10 but were made to read the whole thing and loved the rest of the script so much that the production company ended up optioning it. The real gauge of success is the end result. Even if you win at Nicholl that's awesome, but if you make a six figure sale and get yourself some sweet moolah, who cares about Nicholl? Don't get me wrong, I do think that this is a wonderful learning experience as to what it might be like to work on assignment, etc., I just don't think it's a very accurate measure of success if that's what someone is looking for.

NG, Jenna's written/(writes?) screenplays too, so why would she discriminate against the genre?

Jenna, :flag:.

[mommie4a]

Hi Screenwriters.

I'm only one person here, but I thought the following might interest you:

I've received Absolute Write newsletters for two or three years. I read about the Idol contest in a newsletter. I came to the Cooler to do the contest, I made honorable mention, and I stayed around - all this time. I'm enjoying - I offer what I can, take what is helpful and so on. I'm enjoying it immensely and I think Jenna and several of the mods make this place more than one-dimensional.

I clicked enough times to get to the screenwriters' entries and read the rules etc. I totally considered voting.

My NOT voting has ZERO to do with any of the things some of you have mentioned - I could care less about the prize money thing or jealousy or whatever it was exactly (early in the morning here).

But really, the main reason I have disengaged from voting (though I voted every single round in Idol) is because as someone who doesn't write screenplays and doesn't read them, I am incredibly confused by them. My brain just doesn't see them the way I see prose.

I know that may seem lame to you all for whom this way of writing is second nature.

But the length of the screenplays is intimidating, reading all the directions is intimidating - the style just isn't for everyone.

Again, with all due respect, it's just WAY easier to read a poem (and I suck at poetry deciphering too) or an essay or a short story or a chapter of something. And I'll confess, anyone in Idol who wrote sci fi or fantasy or horror - well, I have a VERY hard time reading that stuff too - I don't get it, basically. But that's my preference.

So - please - don't pre-judge or misjudge all 2K folks or 4K folks or however many folks are registered here, and not the 100 or so faithful in the Idol contest.

I'm just speaking for myself - but frankly, it's my inexperience with the genre that has kept me from reading any of your entries.

Plain and simple.

But I wish you good luck. :)

[NikeeGoddess]

steph - there's no need to tell me to "chill out" - based on my previous post it's quite obvious that i'm long over it. imo jenna has over-analyized my post and took it as an attack on her....which indeed it wasn't my intention. however, my delivery was too opinionated and in poor taste so, maybe you all will recognize that and just give it a rest.

and i did participate in the early part of the idol contest but, i didn't vote in the latter part b/c i didn't like the chosen entries. i beat to a different drummer and chose not to vote for an entry just because it was there. my drum also refused to be a cheery cheerleader who kisses butt just because one should.

307 entries compared to 13 is a huge disparity. i'm sure the same would be for most specific contests like poetry which i have no interest but that doesn't mean i would ignore it.

oh yeah - just to be difficult:
screenwriters ARE treated like 2nd class citizens amongst the masses of writers'. it might have something to do with style and format (like poetry). it's like rap music. people say, "i don't get it! and i can't understand a word they're saying." - so they turn it off and refuse to give it a chance.
go figure!

[Annabanana]

Mommie, totally understandable, I think it's because screenplays are the blueprints to a film, which is the final product people are used to SEEING, but prose is THE final product so everyone as a whole has had exposure to it since childhood and is more comfortable reading it.

It's just like language proficiency, I can watch a movie in Russian and understand everything perfectly but when it comes to reading the same story in cyrillic, which I don't see on a daily basis, it goes along at a snail's pace and it's easy to give up.

[dpaterso]

Interesting thoughts. I read the entries in many of the later Idol rounds but just couldn't darn well make my mind up sometimes, they were that close, to the point where I had no preference for one over another and voting would have been akin to flipping a coin. I can't be the only reader who felt the same way. And I guess a whole variety of personal reasons will stop readers from voting in this contest, too, but that doesn't mean they're bad people. No excuses necessary.

Nikee -- Diplomatic Corps wants YOU!

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

The Absolute Write Ultimate Screenwriting Challenge Contest
Rules & Prizes (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18151)
Read the Entries for Task 1 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18170)
1st voting period extended to midnight on Saturday, October 1st.

[Joe Calabrese]

I think we've covered all we can here.

Please do not spam other forum rooms, forcing them to vote. This will cause them to stay away instead.

I thank everyone who is participating, both in entries and in taking the time to read and vote.

[mommie4a]

oh yeah - just to be difficult:
screenwriters ARE treated like 2nd class citizens amongst the masses of writers'. it might have something to do with style and format (like poetry). it's like rap music. people say, "i don't get it! and i can't understand a word they're saying." - so they turn it off and refuse to give it a chance.
go figure!

NG - I don't know you and I don't think you know me so, if you wouldn't mind, please don't belittle or trivialize what was intended to be a very sincere explanation of how I in fact wanted to look through and give a vote but really felt that given the rest of my time constraints (do you really even care about those? I assume not so why would I bother you with all the details?), and the learning curve, I just couldn't do it.

You want to say that you didn't vote for Idol entries because they weren't worthy and have that decision respected? Well, I'm just hoping you can give the same respect to at least one person here (um, me) who took the time to say whY I haven't voted here.

No need to dis my reasoning, really. It's not about not giving it a chance. People have legit, personal reasons (and lives) going on.

Thanks.

[mommie4a]

Mommie, totally understandable, I think it's because screenplays are the blueprints to a film, which is the final product people are used to SEEING, but prose is THE final product so everyone as a whole has had exposure to it since childhood and is more comfortable reading it.

It's just like language proficiency, I can watch a movie in Russian and understand everything perfectly but when it comes to reading the same story in cyrillic, which I don't see on a daily basis, it goes along at a snail's pace and it's easy to give up.

Giggling, well - I've never tried to read cyrillic :) But I did study Chinese for a couple of years. And yes, the level on attention and intensity required is high.

Look - some folks, I'm sure, just THINK and SEE THINGS in screenwriting format. I'm not one of them. And it makes it tough. I think your assessment/analogy is fair. Thanks.

[StephieM]

Mommie4a, Thankyou for explaining your reasons. It was nice of you to take the time and post. Although, others shouldn't be obligated to explain. There are a lot of differences between a script and something written in prose and it's a big task for someone to take on who isn't familiar with the format. Like someone stated before, TASK 2, should be a bit easier since it won't be in screenplay format.

It would be nice if we lived in a perfect world and EVERYONE at absolutewrite would vote, but it's just not going to happen. If you vote, great, if you don't-then you have your reasons which should not have to be explained. And we shouldn't judge or hassle people for their vote. Instead I think those who have entered should concentrate on the second task and hope that this round will have more of a voting outcome.

Anna. Once again I agree and disagree. I agree that producers have a good eye for what they want. I believe they know the difference between a good script and a great script. However they also know a great concept when they see it. It could be a terrible script, but they may like the idea of it, buy it, and hire someone else to rewrite it. Even so, I don't think anyone has to know what makes a good screenplay in order to know what they like and not like. We write scripts to create films for a wide range audience, people who have absolutely no idea what goes into a script. If anything their opinions matter the most, because they are the people who are going to decide wether or not our "idea" is worth the nine bucks. :)

[maestrowork]

307 entries compared to 13 is a huge disparity. i'm sure the same would be for most specific contests like poetry which i have no interest but that doesn't mean i would ignore it.

As both a novelist and screenwriter (and actor who reads scripts all the time), I'll have to slap you aroudn a bit...

I don't think people are ignoring this contest. But the reality is, screenwriting is foreign to most writers, unless screenwriting is your thing.

Yes, many people watch movies. But seeing a movie is very different than reading a script. Most people just do not understand the structures, formats, styles, and concept of scripts. Most people are more familiar with prose and essays, even poetry. They can read them. They can understand them. They can write them.

That's why you see 307 IDOL contestants instead and only 13 screenplays. Not to mention I believe prose writers outnumber screenwriters on AbsolutelyWrite by a large margin, so I'm actually not disappointed to see 13 screenwriters in the contest.

It has nothing to do with the prizes and how well the contest is run. I mean, gosh, I got over 40 entries in my silly Purple Prose contest, and the prizes only include my own silly little book.

And it absolutely doesn't mean screenwriters are treated as 2nd class writers. Like I said, I'm also a screenwriter, and I definitely do not feel I'm treated badly as a screenwriter, as opposed to a novelist.

I think both Jenna and Joe did fantastically with their respective contests. There's no reason to compare and degrade.

[Annabanana]

Anna. Once again I agree and disagree. I agree that producers have a good eye for what they want. I believe they know the difference between a good script and a great script. However they also know a great concept when they see it. It could be a terrible script, but they may like the idea of it, buy it, and hire someone else to rewrite it.

What would be the incentive? Ideas aren't copywrighted, scripts are. A producer could just take the idea, make it better, and get someone else to write the script, all the while sending a nice rejection letter to the original writer. Do you know anyone who's sold a terrible script? I don't.

[StephieM]

Okay, maybe not TERRIBLE scripts. Let's just say hypothetically a producer comes across a script with a concept that is powerfully original and commercial. It's got great character names, great setting, great subplots, all the elements that make a great story, but the writing isn't that great. So he hires another writer to make the dialogue less wooden, the action more suspenseful, more thrilling. Do I know any writers who sold a script based on the elements of the story alone. No. But I wouldn't say it's impossible. The point is that producers are just like everyone else. They know what they like.

Steph

[Joe Calabrese]

Do I know any writers who sold a script based on the elements of the story alone. I do. Plenty too. Keep in mind that ALL scripts are rewritten during preproduction (and production and in some cases, like Gladiator, during post production) and many times NOT by the original writer.

[Annabanana]

But was the writing bad? I would think in most cases scripts that sell are well-written, but then the producer has his/her own ideas of what they want to add to the equation.

[Joe Calabrese]

Last year, I rewrote the biggest piece of crap to the best of my ability that the producer loved the concept and storyline, but it needed a lot of work. I tried my best, but I think it is still crap, mostly due to the fact the producer refused to accept key changes. He loved it those elements the way they were even if they made no sense to most people.

GO buy a low budget horror film from the 99 cent bin at Wallmart and while watching it (and forgetting about special fx) you'll think to yourself that the story, dialog and the written word (the original screenplay) couldn't have been this bad. The truth is that it probably was, BUT the producer loved it.

[JennaGlatzer]

Not to mention I believe prose writers outnumber screenwriters on AbsolutelyWrite by a large margin,

Trivia: Before Absolute Write was Absolute Write, it was a little Geocities site known as Jenna's Screenwriting Spot. Almost all of our early subscribers were screenwriters because that's the community I knew... I was very active on Zoetrope, Screenwriters Utopia, and other sites. Over time, the numbers changed. My estimate is that 20% of those on the newsletter list identify primarily as screenwriters. /TRIVIA.

[Maryn]

oh yeah - just to be difficult:
screenwriters ARE treated like 2nd class citizens amongst the masses of writers'.Not to restir the pot just when it's stopped boiling over (which, of course, means that's exactly what I'm about to do), but if you feel like a second-class citizen among the writers, maybe it's because your skills aren't at the same level?

I don't mean to point an accusing finger at you or anyone else, but after considerable time hanging out at both writing and screenwriting sites, I find the basic writing mechanics of screenwriters are not of the same quality as the fiction writers'. (Sorry, I don't know about poets or non-fiction folks.) Now, this isn't really a problem, since what screenwriters produce is, as someone on this thread noted, a blueprint for a movie, not a version of the finished printed product.

But at most 'serious' writing forums which include screenwriters, someone who didn't use standard capitalization, proper punctuation and spelling, and get the rest of the mechanics of writing right nearly all the time might very well be treated as a less-than-equal.

You know how it is--every special-interest website has elitists who really do know a whole lot and who talk down to others whose posts show that they don't know as much. Sometimes the elitism is a deliberate snub, sometimes not. Writing sites have their elitists, same as others, and screenwriters may find themselves smarting after being on the receiving end of critique that was asked for which publicly notes a whole lot of mistakes.

If it's important to you to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with other writers, maybe more attention to how you express yourself in writing is a good first step, even if the end product in your genre is not written but film or digital. The other option, of course, is revel in your role as underdog, secure in the knowledge that what you write is good enough for its market, which is the end game for us all.

Maryn, just throwing the notion out there

[Unique]

Huh. A lot more traffic on this thread since the last time I looked.

Here's my 2 1/2 cents. I read all of the entries. By the time I finished I was reading with one eye. My brain wasn't tired; but my eyes sure were.

I went to sleep and when I woke up the next morning I said, 'Self, which stories do you remember?' I wrote down key words so I'd recognize the entries. I even found one that made me say, 'Oh, yeah. That was a cool one, too'. I wrote down the numbers and I reread them with the thought, 'Will this work on stage? Is this possible to film? (With or without special effects)?

When I'd narrowed it down to two - I had a really hard time. I really liked both and would have enjoyed seeing either one produced. One could have been produced as a play or film; the other, probably not. The format doesn't bother me - I can 'see' what I'm supposed to see. I've acted in plays so I'm familiar with how they work.

I spent a good long time considering my choice. And I don't even own a television and I don't go to movies, but I was probably one of the first people to vote.

I voted to support your contest. Pure and simple. Some people do care.

[Optimus]

I don't mean to point an accusing finger at you or anyone else, but after considerable time hanging out at both writing and screenwriting sites, I find the basic writing mechanics of screenwriters are not of the same quality as the fiction writers'. (Sorry, I don't know about poets or non-fiction folks.) Now, this isn't really a problem, since what screenwriters produce is, as someone on this thread noted, a blueprint for a movie, not a version of the finished printed product.

But at most 'serious' writing forums which include screenwriters, someone who didn't use standard capitalization, proper punctuation and spelling, and get the rest of the mechanics of writing right nearly all the time might very well be treated as a less-than-equal.

You know how it is--every special-interest website has elitists who really do know a whole lot and who talk down to others whose posts show that they don't know as much. Sometimes the elitism is a deliberate snub, sometimes not. Writing sites have their elitists, same as others, and screenwriters may find themselves smarting after being on the receiving end of critique that was asked for which publicly notes a whole lot of mistakes.



Maryn, no offense, but your post shows a gross ignorance of screenwriting.

And, if you're using what you've read on this site as evidence of screenwriting or screenwriting techniques, then I feel bad for you, as you'll never be educated as to the actual mechanics of screenwriting. No offense to this site, but it is certainly NOT one of the better sites for screenwriters (don't forget...I *heart* Joe and Jenna).

There are several reasons for this. For one, the number of professional or learned/talented screenwriters who visit this site/forum is extremely small (relatively). The largest screenwriting messageboard/site, Done Deal, has more members (screenwriters) than this entire board total. Many of them are pros and a person can get a wealth of advice on that site in many, many areas of screenwriting/dramaturgy. Therefore, there aren't as many good or experienced writers here posting pages.

Also, given the fact that the number of pro/experienced screenwriters on this site is very small, the amount of good, solid, accurate advice is also very small. If one were to read through the many threads of posted script pages here, one would find that much of the advice is poor and based mostly on poor opinion rather than experience and education. Much of the advice amounts to the blind leading the blind.

Also, if you think that screenwriters are thin-skinned, then you've never been to a real screenwriting site. On Done Deal, they are brutally honest. You either grow a thick skin quickly, or you don't survive (FYI, most novelists over there don't survive). While the brutally honest approach has its drawbacks, I think it is more productive for learning. In that type of environment, newbie writers aren't coddled into thinking that the steaming pile of crap they just wrote is in any way a "great job!" simply because they tried hard. That, unfortunately, happens a lot around here. We used to have a pro development exec who posted here often, and gave a lot of great advice, but she was too honest (I guess) and was "asked" to leave. That's sad, because now we have one less person giving solid advice, yet we still have a sea of poor writers telling other poor writers "great job!" This forum needs much more educated dissent.

Another problem (and from what I've read here at AbsoluteWrite, the same goes for novel writers) is that any idiot thinks he/she can write a screenplay. Hate your job? Bored at home while your husband is away at work? Wife just left you? Wish you'd studied something else in college? Hell, why don't you just write a screenplay! I mean, come on! Everybody watches movies, right? So, that means anyone can write them, because they're just so easy, and everybody has fantastic ideas! Right? Right?!

Wrong. Hating your job doesn't mean you should've been a screenwriter.

Lastly, and this is related to the previous paragraph, the moderating on this site oftentimes creates an atmosphere that is falsely and misleadingly positive. That's not a knock against Joe or Ray or Jenna, because they have to wrangle the misbehavers, but sometimes people need to be told the truth, without the convenience or anesthetic of ingenuine tact. I mean, even when spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes are pointed out in script pages here, I'm boggled that some of the responses are akin to, "Well, that doesn't matter. How does it read?" If an aspirant screenwriter doesn't think that spelling, grammar, and punctuation are important in a screenplay, then he/she is an idiot and is doomed to failure. Which, makes me happy, because that's just less competition for me.

Sometimes, people here are told something "like it is" and then those honest posts are deleted or the poster is told to edit them because they weren't "nice." Or, the author of the original work (the person receiving the advice) doesn't accept the advice because he/she doesn't think things like spelling, punctuation, proper format, structure, a compelling inciting incident, a great Act II turning point, etc. are important.

Well, Hollywood isn't always a "nice" town, and sometimes people need a good slapping dose of reality.

Again, I'm not knocking this site, because I like it, but the people who are truly serious about learning the art of screenwriting and really improving to a higher level, don't come here. They go to Done Deal and Two Adverbs (Christopher Lockhart's site).

Professional screenwriters, directors, and producers all visit Done Deal (though, admittedly, not as many as there used to be) and offer great advice. They are all brutally honest, though tactful and professional as well.

As far as novel writing versus screenwriting goes (and your comments about the mechanics of "real" writers), many, many novel writers have tried their hand at screenwriting, especially on Done Deal, and failed miserably because, as most of them have admitted, screenwriting is much more difficult than novel writing.

The mechanics and format are totally different. Novels are a totally different genre and tell stories in an entirely different structure. Screenwriting employs the mechanics of dramaturgy, which many novelists find extremely difficult to transition to or understand. And, frankly, I'd be surprised if many of the "novelists" on this site know the difference, anyway ("Uh...what's dramaturgy?")

It's much easier to go from screenwriting to novels, than novels to screenwriting. If you don't believe that, then you don't know the difference between novels and dramaturgy.

Seriously, I challenge any novelist here to go to Done Deal, write some script pages, post them, get some critiques, and not come back to AbsoluteWrite crying about how "mean" they are over there and how screenwriting is hard.

[maestrowork]

screenwriting is much more difficult than novel writing.
Not necessarily so. Just different.

Just as many novelists don't transition well to screenwriting, many screenwriters can't write novels either.

[Optimus]

IMO, most people trying to write, in whatever medium, simply have no talent for it and are wasting their time.

[Joe Calabrese]

This has turned into a "less filling vs. "tastes great" debate. Sorry, this is so wrong on so many levels.

[Joe Calabrese]

I know I closed this thread, but I must answer Opti's earlier remarks.

I have never banned or reprimanded anyone for being honest. In fact, I expect honesty when people post.

However, "Brutally Honest" doesn't mean you have the liberty to call someone a name, belittle them, their work or their desire to become a professional screenwriter. It was (and will continue to be) in those instances in which someone was reprimanded and/or banned.

If other screenwriting message boards allow that kind of unprofessionalism, then shame on them for allowing it.

Try telling a producer, director, co-writer, or agent something "Brutally Honest" (by certain members' definition and/or example) and see if you'll ever get a writing assignment or sell a spec.