What is too offensive to be funny?

[batyler65]

A recent thread posted in this forum got me thinking. Where do we draw the line with humor? When does funny stop being funny and start being offensive?

I turned on George Carlin the other night, and personally, I find him more offensive than funny, but that's just my opinion. Obviously others don't feel that way. ;)

What do you think? What do you find offensive in the world of humor today?

[rich]

I don't know. If Lenny Bruce never existed I think comedy would not have gained a good grip on how we really behave. Then again, when a humorist exploits these insights just to produce a monologue that works just for him/her, it gets a bit insipid. The bottom line for most humorists is to entertain. When there are redeeming social qualities, all the better.

George Collin had a long dry spell, then renewed himself. How much of his work is audience-driven and how much is what he really feels will never be known. I, personally, can relate to the subdued stuff of Thurber, Benny, Cosby, and E.B. White and still enjoy Rock, Pryor, and Collin.

[Cathy C]

So far, I haven't found anything that I consider "offensive." There are things I don't happen to find funny, but I'm not offended. While I LOVE South Park, for example, I don't find Crank Yankers funny. My husband adores those skits, though.


Objectively, I think humor is a method of stress relief. Sometimes you have to laugh or you'll cry (or scream.) I find some very dark things "milk out the nose" funny that other people would deem offensive. I don't think there IS a line.

[Perks]

I don't think there IS a line.

I actually think there is a line, but what makes it impossible to define is that the breadth of that line is in constant negotiation between the comic, the target and the timing of the joke.

Best bet, in my opinion, is to shrug off offense as quickly as possible. And to know yourself. Obviously, one should avoid setting oneself up to be offended. I'm very difficult to offend, so if I find myself there, I usually ask myself two quick questions: "Was there intent?" and "Do I really give a sh**?" Those two can generally un-bunch my panties in a hurry...

[Richard]

I don't think there's a line either. However, there is a time and a place. It's not necessarily where someone gets offended though.

[batyler65]

I actually think there is a line, but what makes it impossible to define is that the breadth of that line is in constant negotiation between the comic, the target and the timing of the joke.


Well said. I have to agree that there is a line, but it varies according to situation. For example, booger jokes are considered quite funny by the kindergarten crowd, but you probably wouldn't tell them at a formal cocktail party.

So maybe the line is the audience itself?

Barb

[Yeshanu]

I think there is a line, and it does have something to do with the crowd, but that's not the only thing.

Some humour gets laughs by grossing people out, and that offends some people. But it's still humourous. But as Perks says, you should avoid setting yourself up to be offended. If you don't like gross or sexual humour, don't hang out with people who use that kind of humour.

Where I feel humour can cross the line is where it is really hate disguised as humour. That's why I have trouble with jokes aimed at specific targets, like blondes or people of colour. I ask myself, would this joke be funning if it was about a different group/type of people. If the answer is no, then the joke is probably hate rhetoric disguised as humour.

If the answer is yes, then it's probably a funny joke. For example, light bulb jokes change targets depending on the audience/comedian. They illustrate the comic side of belonging to a particular group. For example:


How many second violinists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
None; second violinists can't reach that high.
How many saxophone players does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Five; one to screw in the light bulb and four to stand around and wonder how David Sanborn would do it.

How many percussionist does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Two; one to screw in the light bulb after the other realizes that hitting it with a stick won't work.

How many 1st Bassoonists does it take to change a light bulb?
None...that's the 2nd bassoonist job!

How many oboists does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but it takes them an hour to find just the RIGHT bulb...

How many clarinet players does it take to screw in a light bulb?
One, but it will take him a huge box of light bulbs to find one that fits.


How many producers does it take to change a light bulb?
Well, what do you think?
How many sound men does it take to change a light bulb?
One, two, three, one, two, three.

Obviously, one should avoid setting oneself up to be offended. I'm very difficult to offend, so if I find myself there, I usually ask myself two quick questions: "Was there intent?" and "Do I really give a sh**?" Those two can generally un-bunch my panties in a hurry...

This is about right. Intent to offend or to inspire hate makes the joke not funny. If I answer the second question with a "Yes, I do give a sh**," then I'll simply tell the person, "That wasn't funny," and walk away. Comedians live for laughs. If they don't get them, I find they mend their ways pretty fast...

[Cathy C]

Intent to offend or to inspire hate makes the joke not funny


This is an opinion, not a fact. We'll have to agree to disagree. :D

[batyler65]

Well, humor is subjective and everyone has the option to walk away from humor they find offensive.

But when you write humor, how much should you worry about what other people think?

[Yeshanu]

But when you write humor, how much should you worry about what other people think?

It depends on why you write humour. If you write it because you think it's funny, and it makes you laugh, then you don't need to worry about what anybody else thinks. But if you want to make other people laugh, then you need to keep that in mind every time you write, just like if you want to make others cry or feel any other emotion. So a professional humour writer should be worrying about what his or her audience thinks all the time.

Obviously, that means that you have to know your audience. I know that the jokes I write for my sermons in church won't do diddly-squat to the audience in a bar setting, and the jokes one can tell in a bar setting would offend folks if I told them from the pulpit.

This is an opinion, not a fact. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Cathy, hate literature is hate literature, whether it's disguised as humour or not. In Canada, hate literature is illegal, right of free speech notwithstanding.

I guess it is a matter of opinion as to whether any particular joke or sketch is funny, but in my opinion, when a so-called humourist is relying solely on the offensiveness of a given joke to get a laugh, he or she is revealing an appalling lack of creativity.

[batyler65]

Regarding Audience:

I have noticed with more and more frequency, stand-up comedians seem to think every other word out of their mouths has to be a four-letter word (George Carlin, case in point). Now, I will not pretend to be prudish on this issue; I swear like a sailor, but I have to wonder, is this what audiences are looking for? In other words, have people come to expect humor to be packaged this way?

This comes back to the comment "relying solely on offensiveness" to get a laugh. So much of humor depends on an element of surprise to get a laugh. Are people so jaded nowadays that we have to shock them with the f-word in order for a joke about Tupperware to fly?

[Jaycinth]

If you think about it, most humor seems to result from a retelling of another's misfortune. If you stand back and look at it long enough, anything can be funny.


I mean, WHAT! Did you think that God sits around and watches sit-coms for laughs?!

[allenparker]

Humor is different for each person. Each of us that writes humor has a specific definition of humor and our writings reflect that belief.

For instance, I believe that humor is the reaction one has to ordinary situations that produce inordinate results. Because of this, I write situation comedy short stories and novels that reflect this belief. I see a pie in the face as funny if there is a real life issue that produced the face full of pie.

If we procede down this road, we see that the humor may be caused by everyday events that are common, but not acceptable to talk about in most public situations. The variable here is the public place. For example, my 14 y.o. niece can not stand to hear anyone talk about feminine products. To her, it is offensive. A run of jokes about this rarely bothers her. For me, I have been married to my wonderful wife for twenty years and I can walk into a store, and do my own peice check over the speaker if the cashier is not loud enough.

Now, we have two variables causing us to redefine acceptable humor, the type of humor and where we are.

To me, that makes the border not a line, but a piece of spaghetti shifting and turning with each twist of the fork.

All is not lost, though. Each of us can tell where the spaghettti falls when it hits the floor. The question at my house, is who gets to clean it up.

Stop worrying. Write what you wite. If it offends someone, sell it to someone else.

Just a small thought from the Palatial futon.... Allen

[Yeshanu]

If you think about it, most humor seems to result from a retelling of another's misfortune. If you stand back and look at it long enough, anything can be funny.


I mean, WHAT! Did you think that God sits around and watches sit-coms for laughs?!

Actually, my very favourite forms of humour results from a retelling of the comedian's misfortune. And no, God doesn't need sit-coms. She has me. :tongue

I have noticed with more and more frequency, stand-up comedians seem to think every other word out of their mouths has to be a four-letter word (George Carlin, case in point).

It's true enought that comedians use four letter words with increasing frequency, but I think that's because four-letter words are used more often by the general population. I work in a factory, and it seems that almost everyone talks like that. In that case, the comedians aren't using the four-letter words to get a laugh, they're using them because you have to speak the language of your audience in order to reach them.

George Carlin is a bit different -- the "seven words you can't say on television" skit makes fun of the whole idea of censorship of swear words, and it's not a new skit. That skit came out when I was in my teens, and I'm forty-five now.

[Perks]

Sorry, but agile cursing is completely hysterical! ;)

[Yeshanu]

Sorry, but agile cursing is completely hysterical! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif


True enough, but most of what I hear isn't agile... :)

[CACTUSWENDY]

:popcorn: FARTS....NEVER VERY FUNNY....IMO

[pconsidine]

If you think about it, most humor seems to result from a retelling of another's misfortune. If you stand back and look at it long enough, anything can be funny.
This is a very valid point.

For example - my wife's grandfather passed away about a month ago. He was the patriarch of a very large Italian clan and his wake was the first time in a very long time that many of the family members had seen each other. So many of them were standing talking and laughing, it quickly took on the atmosphere of a family reunion instead of memorial service.

My sister-in-law and I were standing by the door, chatting with a few people we hadn't seen in ages. A group of people came by as they were leaving to offer their condolences. One of them gripped my sister-in-law on the shoulder and said "I'm sorry about your grandfather."

Without even thinking about it, she says "Why? What happened?"

I think it took every last ounce of strength she had to keep from laughing until they had left.

Now, it's pretty clear that forgetting all about the deceased at his own wake could be seen as offensive. And a wake is definitely not a generally happy event. But that was the funniest damn thing any of us had ever heard in our lives.

[robeiae]

Humor is life.
Life is pain.
Humor is pain.

Q.E.D.

Rob :)

[JANE007]

I don't think anything is too offensive to be funny... But i'm kind of a sick pup so don't take my word for it.

I'm not easily offended... and I like to laugh!

[ChunkyC]

Chris Rock was hosting one of the MTV awards shows a few years ago. He came out and said, "Man that Jennifer Lopez got a big a**. Don't she got a big a**? That's right, she got a great big a**."

The crowd howled with laughter and I have no idea why. That wasn't a joke, it was nothing more than an insult. Yet the audience thought he was hysterical. To me, that was a perfect example of being offensive purely to get a laugh. Now if he'd said, "Jennifer Lopez a** so big it takes 2 hours to download a picture of it," that would have been a joke, albeit a bad one.

[The Gorn]

I turned on George Carlin the other night, and personally, I find him more offensive than funny, but that's just my opinion. Obviously others don't feel that way. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Humor is an art. If you want to get a laugh you have to carefully select what to joke about and how you tell the joke. I included the above quote because it mentions George Carlin. Mr. Carlin actually made a comment on this very sublect during one of his shows. He said "I believe you can joke about anything. It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. Every joke needs something to be way out of perportion."
Now, I agree with Mr. Carlin on that point. But, it is a fact that I do find some of his material offensive. Some I also consider annoying. But for the most part, I think he is funny. I think when it comes to determining what is funny and what is offensive, it depends on the audience. What one person would consider to be the funniest joke of all time, another person may consider the same joke to be the single greatest insult to the art ever.

[LloydBrown]

Of course, sometimes the point of humor is not to be funny but to characterize somebody as offensive. I love the Stephen King character who tosses this one out:

What's the definition of a woman?
A life support system for a c***.

You hate that character for life. Technically, the intention is humor, but only from the character's POV. While it will be humorous to somebody, it invokes great anger in others.

[dale]

Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone else has something new to add...

I'm always a little undecided about what's TOO offensive to print. A fellow humorist friend of mine talks about pieces having "soul" - a piece that contains offensive content but has a resonant human element to it passes muster on this point, while a piece that's just plain rude doesn't. I like the idea, because it's not a litmus test, but there is something one can put ones finger on in it.

Some of my decisions about content have to do with the market. I know that one of my editors tends to cut/rewrite any bad language, so I've learned to write around it as time has gone on. My ideas can still be twisted, but I find other ways to express them.

On the other hand, the single most perverse and offensive piece I've ever written has gotten deal-memo'ed for a brand-name anthology due out this fall.

So I guess if I can bring myself to write it, someone else might be willing to publish it.

[Cat Scratch]

Very little offends me when it comes to joke-telling. A lot of it has to do with how much I believe the joke-teller really means it. If she lowers her voice and says "Do you like JEWISH people?" as a lead-in, then I'll point out that I'm related to a rabbi and ask that she keep her trap shut. When it's all in good fun, I'll crack the heck up.

I find jokes/humor even MORE funny when it's in don't-go-there territory.

[dale]

It sounds like this hypothetical joke-teller is making the mistake of implying that what follows will be offensive IF you're Jewish.

Which is pretty offensive in itself, right? I mean, it implies that she would gladly tell this joke about Jews to anyone BUT Jews. It gives the impression that it's not likely to be funny in the first place; it might even be an ethnic slur disguised as a joke.

There's "don't go there" territory based on truth and extremes of human behavior, and there's "don't go there" territory that's just exclusionary us-versus-them stuff. I love the former, but do find the latter offensive. Jokes that expose stereotypes for what they are are hilarious, but jokes that DEPEND on acceptance of a negative stereotype annoy me.

[dclary]

You know what the problem is? People today are so uptight that EVERYTHING is offensive.

Even here on AW -- a WRITER'S site, there are words we can't use, because we might OFFEND someone.

One aspect of comedy is shock comedy. And this is very often rude, crude, or (as the cliche goes) socially unacceptable.

Betty White's racism in Bringin' Down the House is an example of this. Offensive? Yes. Hilarious. Oh, Hell Yes!


I honestly think that if our society crumbles into destruction, it will have been a result of too many people being so sensitive that no one could say anything, for fear of it upsetting someone else.

[batyler65]

This is an interesting point, Dave. I often wonder where does political correctness end?

I was in a store yesterday and (kid you not) saw a "politically correct" game of war. You know, the card game? ARGH. It is WAR. There is a whole humor column in there just begging to get out, but I haven't
found the angle yet.

Should political correctness affect the approach one takes to humor? Chime in here, folks.

[dclary]

You're going to get censured (or censored, either or both) if it doesn't affect your approach.

But that's when you make that choice to be cutting edge and true, or Bob Saget on AFV.

[MidnightMuse]

Don't you think it worked so well for Betty White because it came out of left field, coming from her ?

I agree, the whole Political Correct thing just drives me crazy. As a government employee, we're forced to take "sensitivity training" -- I work at a sewer with 32 men. It took them a few months to figure out that nothing they say or do bothers me, because I don't take any of it personally.

I wish they'd teach "desensitivity training" instead, and teach people how to NOT think everything that's said is meant as some kind of direct assault.

That said, I can and do find some humor offensive -- or unfunny -- but that doesn't mean it's not funny to other people, or that I have a right to be upset or offended. I simply change the channel, put down the book, leave the club and head for the bar -- whatever. You censor yourself, rather than censoring others around you.

Just my .15 cents, anyway.

[dale]

Humor and satire SHOULD deal with racism, sexism, injustice, etc., as well as sex, religion, values, and other potentially controversial subjects. Offense to some degree is in the eye of the beholder; as writers I think the most important thing for us to keep in mind and communicate is context and underlying attitude.

As an example, keep in mind that most humor *about* racism is not racist - it's actually anti-racist. And there are "ethnic jokes" that poke fun at stereotypes by exaggerating them, or by recognizing that there may be some truth to them. Humor of this sort contributes to healthy dialogue about difficult subjects. The jester can say what otherwise goes unsaid.

But there is such a thing as racist or sexist "humor" based not on truth, but on an assumption of inferiority - i.e., its premise is a negative stereotype, held to be true. That's not actually funny - it's designed to reinforce and celebrate a destructive and ignorant attitude. It's bullying, dishonest and wrongheaded and SHOULD be avoided and spoken out against.

Humor should always be ready and willing to hold a mirror up to anything. Obviously, some people in any audience will not comprehend context, or refuse to understand the underlying point in order to preserve a treasured sense of outrage. That, we can't help. :)

[Pmnuedo]

You're going to get censured (or censored, either or both) if it doesn't affect your approach.

But that's when you make that choice to be cutting edge and true, or Bob Saget on AFV.

Have you seen The Aristocrats, or at least heard of the joke behind the documentary? Bob Saget tells the dirtiest (and by design of the joke, most hilarious) version I've ever heard. His stand up comedy is very different from what he does on TV.


Edit: I forgot to get to the point. Some of the funniest people end up doing safe TV shows. Bob Saget tells the jokes on AFV that his producers want him to tell. I know you aren't saying he is never funny, but it really isn't his fault that he can't do his raunchy stuff all the time.

Ok in short: You don't really ever make the choice to be cutting edge or Bob Saget on AFV. Not anyone who makes it anyway. They all are somewhere inbetween, sometimes getting to do what they want, and other times having to do what they're told. Some people are more popular (Dave Chappelle for example) and have more freedom, but everyone sells out to a degree.

[dclary]

Oh, I know. I've seen Sagat live. He's a cousin of a friend of ours...

And you're right, to make it big you have to sell out some of that edge.

What I meant from the post was to say that at some point you have to decide for yourself what's too offensive (or, in Bob's case, accept a trunkful of cash to let someone else decide). I think the artists we have traditionally accepted as being the funniest of their generation have ALWAYS been the ones willing to stand closer to that offensive line than anyone else around them.