Comma quizzes and other comma tips. Contributers are needed.

[Sydney]

Is it true that when you are writing a sentence and are addressing someone in dialogue by their name or nickname. That you have to use a coma before and after the name?

Example: "I am going to the football game at the high school tonight, Geri, okay?

Please let me and others know. Thank you.

[Sydney]

Also does anyone know the rule about seperating advectives with commas?

Thanks.

[reph]

Yes, you need commas before and after "Geri."

With adjectives, do it like this:

a Christmas present ("Christmas" functions as an adjective in this example, but you treat "Christmas present" as a unit, like a noun, when adding adjectives as below)

a timely Christmas present

a welcome, timely Christmas present

an expensive, welcome, timely Christmas present

a mysterious, expensive, welcome, timely Christmas present

[Sydney]

Thank you reph, any others concur?

This is also a great address because it sums up commas all on one small page.

http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/arts/writcent/hypergrammar/comma.html

Thanks again, Sydney

[jst5150]

There's a great book -- it's British, I believe -- called Eats, Shoots, and Leaves (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592400876/qid=1133502740/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0685949-0603921?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It talks about comma use and much more (like the Oxford comma and where it has gone). However, it's also filled with a multitude of punctuation hints. It also addresses your very question -- and is fun to read. Highly recommended.

[Sydney]

This is my favorite comman fact. Regardless of the comma rules. Also know that...


A comma may be used whenever it is necessary to force a pause for the sake of clarity.

so if a so called comma expert tells you to take the comma out. That according to comma rules it is not needed, but it makes the sentence easier to read.
Don't listen to them and keep it in.

[Tish Davidson]

I think the rule of thumb with adjectives is that if you can place "and" between them you need a comma. So you wouldn't write a "Christmas and present," but you could (not recommending thaty your do) write "an expensive, and welcome, and timely Christmas present," in which case you need the commas.

[Sydney]

OK gang. Here we go again. The biggest problem all writers have are concerning the comma. So this this site for comma quizes.

Comma quizes that you yourselves make for all of us... or links to great comma quizes. If you check this post often, you will learn a lot to help you in your writing. I know I will. After awhile you will become savy with it as it naturally sinks in to your psyche. Then you will know these rules when you write and our novels will be better than ever. This will make a very fun site and easier for us to learn. Also if you find sites where the comma rules are easier to read and understand, you can include those too. Don't bother including the cluttered ones and those hard on the eyes.

I'll start with the first one.

Using Commas with Coordinating Conjunctions (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quizzes/nova/nova1.htm)

[SusanR]

Thanks, that was fun...good site.

My first crit partner was a university English professor with a grammar fetish, and I learned more than I ever wanted to know about commas from him. I still get them wrong in certain instances, since I tend to write the way I would talk, inserting commas where I'd take a breath in speech.

I look forward to more quizzes...thank you.

SusanR

[Sydney]

Well gosh this blows the other theory. Someone else tonight said.


1. Don't insert a comma in a sentence just because the sentence sounds like it needs a comma, and don't leave out commas just because you're afraid of using them incorrectly.
2. Learn the names or functions of the commas; then use the right commas to get your point across.

For a lot of fun about commas see the other post in novels called "comma quizzes."

[Sydney]

P.S. Quizzes is spelled with two z's. That was a big one, sorry about that everyone.

Your welcome and to others that enjoy this site. If this site helps you, it would be helpful if you would make a short quiz for it sometime. Or to also help by finding another good web site for us to visit.

Also, please no other punctuation here. No semi colons and etc. Thank you.

[Jamesaritchie]

That was fun. Mercifully, I aced it, but there was one I had to think about for a time.

[maestrowork]

"I'm going, Geri, okay?" - check


Both of these are acceptable:

My sister, Jenny, wants to go to the ball.

My sister Jenny wants to go to the ball.

Correct: We are here to welcome the president, Mr. George Bush.

Incorrect: We are here to welcome President, George Bush.

[Garbarian]

Both of these are acceptable:

My sister, Jenny, wants to go to the ball.

My sister Jenny wants to go to the ball.





They are both acceptable depending on usage.

The first is acceptable if there is only one sister, and her name is Jenny. In this case "Jenny" is a non-restrictive appositive.

The second is used when the appositive (Jenny) is restrictive (for example there are many sisters).

[Jamesaritchie]

This is my favorite comman fact. Regardless of the comma rules. Also know that...


A comma may be used whenever it is necessary to force a pause for the sake of clarity.

so if a so called comma expert tells you to take the comma out. That according to comma rules it is not needed, but it makes the sentence easier to read.
Don't listen to them and keep it in.

When applicable, this "rule" works well, but the trouble with this rule is that it very often doesn't make the sentence easier to read. It only makes the sentence confusing. It's just a good excuse to use commas improperly.

When a comma expert tells you to remove a comma, remove it. Comma experts also know all about this rule, and know when it works. . .and when it doesn't. It usually doesn't.

[Jamesaritchie]

Well gosh this blows the other theory. Someone else tonight said.



1. Don't insert a comma in a sentence just because the sentence sounds like it needs a comma, and don't leave out commas just because you're afraid of using them incorrectly.
2. Learn the names or functions of the commas; then use the right commas to get your point across.

For a lot of fun about commas see the other post in novels called "comma quizzes."




This is the right way. Comma use isn't arbitrary. There's always reason to use, or not to use, a comma.

[Maryn]

A long-time favorite example reminds us writers why we have to set off the name (or title, or group name, whatever) of the person being talked to. There’s a major difference between Let’s eat, Grandma! and Let’s eat Grandma!

Some of us could use a refresher course in using commas to separate any direct address--that’s one character speaking (or writing) directly to somebody.

Use commas to separate the name, title, or other words used in direct address--using a name, or a name substitute, when speaking to that person.

It doesn’t matter if the direct address is to a single person, a small group, a multitude, or even a non-physical concept. It also doesn’t matter if you’re using full names, proper names, job titles, terms of respect, derogatory terms, formal titles, nicknames, phrases to describe or identify a group, etc.

Hi, Sarah!
Honey, you’re home early. Dinner’s not ready.
I’m going out to eat, dimwit. Remember?
Mr. Smith, your table is ready.
Yes, your Honor, I killed him.
All right, you in the press box, let’s settle down.
Hey, dude, what's wrong?

Use one comma if the direct address appears at the beginning of the sentence.
Mr. Smith, I need your keys.
Honey, where's my blue tie?
Man, you just don't get it.

Use one comma if the direct address appears at the end of the sentence.
I need your keys, Mr. Smith.
Where's my blue tie, honey?
You just don't get it, man.

Use two commas if the direct address appears anywhere else in the sentence.
I need your keys, Mr. Smith, for the valet service.
Where's my blue tie, honey, or the brown one?
You just don't get it, man, or you'd go along on this.

It has to be a comma (or two). Not ellipses if the speaker is to pause. Not a period. Not a colon. Not a dash or a hyphen or extra blank space.

To test whether a name is used as a direct address, see if the sentence still makes sense--and the same sense--without it. If it does, then the use of the name is direct address.

Maryn, who has a hand-out on this, too

[Sydney]

There is one problem with this. Different rules for British English and American English. So we will have to learn the difference.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/exercises/commas1.asp

On this one you can open up the answers on the bottom and check as you go, if you prefer.

[Sydney]

If you are giving any comma advice when you post, please indicate if it is British or U.S. rules.

To make my own skills better, I am doing 1/2 hour minimum of comma reading every day. Thats where this site can also help.

Also, since there are so many pages all over the internet. Some advice helps you and some advice overwhelms you.

To keep myself from being overwhelmed and confused, I have started a word page for myself about commas. I will daily take a comma rule that I understand off of a site. Whether it is from you all here, or whether it is from the internet. Then I will add it to my comma document within topics.

This document that I make will be reviewed monthly. As more time passes I will understand more and more. Things that were once confusing will soon make sense and be added to the document. Eventually I should have all of these rules down pat.

[Sydney]

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http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif Comma quizes because we all need it, and other comma concerns.
OK gang. Here we go again. The biggest problem all writers have are concerning the comma. So this this site for comma quizes.

Comma quizes that you yourselves make for all of us... or links to great comma quizes. If you check this post often, you will learn a lot to help you in your writing. I know I will. After awhile you will become savy with it as it naturally sinks in to your psyche. Then you will know these rules when you write and our novels will be better than ever. This will make a very fun site and easier for us to learn. Also if you find sites where the comma rules are easier to read and understand, you can include those too. Don't bother including the cluttered ones and those hard on the eyes.

I'll start with the first one.

Using Commas with Coordinating Conjunctions (http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quizzes/nova/nova1.htm)
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Thanks, that was fun...good site.

My first crit partner was a university English professor with a grammar fetish, and I learned more than I ever wanted to know about commas from him. I still get them wrong in certain instances, since I tend to write the way I would talk, inserting commas where I'd take a breath in speech.

I look forward to more quizzes...thank you.

SusanR
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Comma quizzes
P.S. Quizzes is spelled with two z's. That was a big one, sorry about that everyone.

Your welcome and to others that enjoy this site. If this site helps you, it would be helpful if you would make a short quiz for it sometime. Or to also help by finding another good web site for us to visit.

Also, please no other punctuation here. No semi colons and etc. Thank you.
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Quiz
That was fun. Mercifully, I aced it, but there was one I had to think about for a time.
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There is one problem with this. Different rules for British English and American English. So we will have to learn the difference.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuat...ses/commas1.asp (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/exercises/commas1.asp)

On this one you can open up the answers on the bottom and check as you go, if you prefer.
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If you are giving any comma advice when you post, please indicate if it is British or U.S. rules.

To make my own skills better, I am doing 1/2 hour minimum of comma reading every day. Thats where this site can also help.

Also, since there are so many pages all over the internet. Some advice helps you and some advice overwhelms you.

To keep myself from being overwhelmed and confused, I have started a word page for myself about commas. I will daily take a comma rule that I understand off of a site. Whether it is from you all here, or whether it is from the internet. Then I will add it to my comma document within topics.

This document that I make will be reviewed monthly. As more time passes I will understand more and more. Things that were once confusing will soon make sense and be added to the document. Eventually I should have all of these rules down pat.
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[Sydney]

Someone sent a piece of mail to me saying they liked the idea of this site. They would go nuts seeing it spelled wrong daily though.

As I writer I know exactly what they mean. It was bugging me too. So I started this new thread with quizzes spelled correctly. We can let the other site die its usual death.

[Sydney]

Please let this thread die. We are going to use the other one just like it, but where quizzes is spelled correctly.

[Cabinscribe]

Comma quizzes?

How about ellipses enigmas?

Parentheses puzzles?

Quotation quagmires?

Ampersand ambiguities?

Sorry ... it's late and I got carried away.

:)

[Sydney]

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Should be writing ...

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Comma quizzes?

How about ellipses enigmas?

Parentheses puzzles?

Quotation quagmires?

Ampersand ambiguities?

Sorry ... it's late and I got carried away.

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__________________
A writer ought to comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable. - Mark Twain







No, because most writers have easily remembered those other rules. Commas have so many rules. They are more difficult for people to remember and foul us up all the time.

[reph]

Commas have so many rules. They are more difficult for people to remember and foul us up all the time.
Sydney, I think Cabinscribe was just having a little fun with the concept.

I'd like to see some less sweeping generalizations about commas and "us." Not everyone has so much trouble with commas. If you learn the principles of their use along with learning how sentences are put together, you can use commas correctly without having to remember rules.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sydney, I think Cabinscribe was just having a little fun with the concept.

I'd have to agree with reph on this. I think the poster mentioned was just having a little fun with the idea.


I'd like to see some less sweeping generalizations about commas and "us." Not everyone has so much trouble with commas. If you learn the principles of their use along with learning how sentences are put together, you can use commas correctly without having to remember rules.

I agree with this also. Knowing rules is great, but really having the knowledge deep within yourself through the use of practice, is definitely, in my own opinion, far superior to knowing what the rules say.

Further, I would have to agree with the idea that not everyone has the issue that a lot of us do. This is not to say no one has the problems with comma usage, but rather to say the generalization about 'what we need,' if you will, in mass, is not necessarily accurate.

I must say, though, that I do find this thread intriguing. It's a fun little thread.

[blisswriter]

I missed two. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif LOL

[MacAllister]

How 'bout I just fix the title, since peeps are still posting here, Sydney? :)

[Sydney]

Thank you. I like this topic too. Some are still trying to keep the other thread alive, lol, but I am still going to let it die. Please post here everyone instead.

A lot of writers have said that you don't have to worry so much about the commas, if you at least understand the basics, the editors will work out the rest.

The other side of that coin says if you are confident in your writing, you are able to do all kinds of unique things with it. That will make for an easier sell to the publishers.

In my case, I feel the need to gain more confidence in my writing. In order to do that mastering the comma would be very helpful. Then I can throw things together any which way and make it more of an art. Otherwise the fear sets in of, am I doing this correctly? Will the editors and publishers notice?

It will also give me power in my writing regarding putting in more commas, or taking them out for affect of the emotion I am trying to portray in the manuscript.

I have been at this long enough to know that this is a general problem with many writers. The quiz idea is because it makes it more fun to learn along with only dialogue.

http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz/quiz17300413cfca8.html another fun one.

[Sydney]

Forgot. Reph the reason why I said what I did is because you are in the minority. That is good that you don't have much trouble with them.

Most people have some trouble with commas. I have a web site that talks about the 20 biggest writing problems, and several of them relate to commas. Also many other things I have read say it is a huge problem also.

[Sydney]

P.S Reph. I'll try not to generalize.

[Jamesaritchie]

A lot of writers have said that you don't have to worry so much about the commas, if you at least understand the basics, the editors will work out the rest.

The other side of that coin says if you are confident in your writing, you are able to do all kinds of unique things with it. That will make for an easier sell to the publishers.



http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz/quiz17300413cfca8.html another fun one.

From the editor's side of the desk, yes, editors will work out some problems with comma usage, but this doesn't mean you can fill a manuscript with poor comma usage and still get by.

It's been my experience that writers who know how to use commas properly also get the grammar correct, and have few if any problems with other punctuation. Writers who are terrible with comma usage, however, are also usually pretty poor with grammar.

The one thing I've found editors don't mind is when a writer bases usage on the rules of his own country. When a writer does this, when a writer knows the rules of his own country inside and out, the writing will still be fine, there will be no mistakes, only differences. In this case, the typesetter will usually make the needed changes.

I'm a US writer, but even when submitting to publication in other countries I still use US rules. They're what I know, and editors are fine with it.

It's like putting punctuation inside the quotation marks in the US, and outside the in the UK. Editos generally handle this well. I do switch to UK spelling, but I doubt even this is necessary.

At any rate, back to commas. When a writer doesn't know how to use commas, when a writer really doesn't understand the rules, it's probably because they don't understand the grammar behind the rules. Take the rule "use commas to set off a parenthetical expression." If a writer doesn't know what a parenthetical expression is, well, knowing the rule isn't going to help much. The writer will still be largely guessing, and will still make mistakes.

I think the reason poor comma usage bothers most editors is because it's a symptom of not knowing enough about basic grammar. As such, when comma usage is very poor, when an editor sees mistake after mistake, it almost certainly means there will also be many errors in grammar.

We all make mistakes, and an occasional mistake doesn't both any editor. But comma usage isn't that difficult to get right, at least if the writer knows the grammar behind the usage. If not, then comma mistakes, and grammar mistakes, are going to be way too common. This affects the writing itself, and usually means rejection.

[jules]

There is one problem with this. Different rules for British English and American English. So we will have to learn the difference.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/exercises/commas1.asp

On this one you can open up the answers on the bottom and check as you go, if you prefer.

OK... what exactly are the differences between British and American comma usage? I'm not aware of any, and read a lot of text written in both.

A tangential note: I don't trust the site that exercise is on. From their 'comma usage' rules:
To avoid confusion, use commas to separate words and word groups with a series of three or more.
Example My $10,000,000 estate is to be split among my husband, daughter, son, and nephew.
NOTE: Omitting the comma after son would indicate that the son and nephew would have to split one-third of the estate.
Err... no, that interpretation would require an additional "and" before son. The comma after son (known as an "oxford" comma) is entirely optional.

Also, it states, "use commas to introduce or interrupt direct quotations shorter than three lines." Huh? I'd *always* use a comma in this situation. Doesn't matter how long the quotation is. And what's a "line" anyway? 10 words? 20 words? That depends on how you're formatting your text.

I don't think I'd be buying her book. Even if it wasn't $15 for a 112 page paperback.

[reph]

I think Jules is right on all counts. I know of no British/American differences in comma usage, unless you include differences between the house styles of particular publishers. House style dictates using the series comma (Oxford comma) or not. You'd always use commas when interrupting a direct quotation of any length, assuming the quotation is run into the text rather than treated as an indented extract. When introducing one, you might use a comma, a colon, or nothing.

[reph]

When a writer doesn't know how to use commas, when a writer really doesn't understand the rules, it's probably because they don't understand the grammar behind the rules.
Yes, exactly. That's what I had in mind when I posted "If you learn the principles of their use along with learning how sentences are put together, you can use commas correctly." I just didn't say it so thoroughly.

Reph the reason why I said what I did is because you are in the minority. That is good that you don't have much trouble with them.
It's very good indeed, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to make a living for 19 years fixing other people's commas.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Snipped for length....

The other side of that coin says if you are confident in your writing, you are able to do all kinds of unique things with it. That will make for an easier sell to the publishers.

In my case, I feel the need to gain more confidence in my writing. In order to do that mastering the comma would be very helpful. Then I can throw things together any which way and make it more of an art. Otherwise the fear sets in of, am I doing this correctly? Will the editors and publishers notice?

It will also give me power in my writing regarding putting in more commas, or taking them out for affect of the emotion I am trying to portray in the manuscript.

I have been at this long enough to know that this is a general problem with many writers. The quiz idea is because it makes it more fun to learn along with only dialogue.

http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz/quiz17300413cfca8.html another fun one.


May I make a suggestion, Sydney? I can think of an excellent book that deals a lot with grammar; and if I'm not mistaken, it has a section on comma usage.

It's called Strunk and White's The Elements of Style. An excellent little handbook that is jam-packed with great information that I think could help you out quite a bit with the confidence issue. It's one of the most talked-about and recommended books I've seen here for style and grammar. You can find it at your local bookstore or maybe over at the library--I'd recommend the bookstore version, so you don't have to keep checking it out and back in again. It's a little-bitty thing, but like I said, jam-packed with good information.

Maybe you could use it. And it might help you become more confident in your own writing. I know it helped me out quite a bit when I got it recently.

Good luck to you, Sydney!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[reph]

Sean, that's an excellent suggestion. An early edition of Strunk and White is online, as are several other books on usage, here:

http://www.bartleby.com/reference/

[Sydney]

James that is exactly what I mean and is the whole reason behind this thread.

Editors and publishers also evaluate a persons manuscript based on how well they understand word usage. Commas fall within understanding the language.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I know all about "Strunk and White" and "Eats shoots and leave."

Sitting down and memorizing all those tip just leaves my head spinning. Also I don't enjoy it. I want something at my fingertips at the computer because this is where I often am. I may as well make use of this format instead.

Here I can access files quickly and if I need to brush up on a rule, I know right where it is.

[Sydney]

Here is the 20 biggest writing problems thread that I was talking about.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~writing/materials/student/ac_paper/grammar.shtml

[reph]

Sitting down and memorizing all those tip just leaves my head spinning.
Some of us have tried to make the point that correct use of commas doesn't come from memorizing anything. It comes from understanding how a sentence is built – what function each part of it has.

When you look at a building, you easily classify the pieces you see and what they do: this is the roof, to protect the interior from the elements; that's a door, to get in and out; those are chimneys, to let smoke and sparks leave safely.

Sentences are similar. They have a structure. For example, if you understand that the name of the person you're addressing is an add-on, not part of the main sentence, you'll put a comma after it to separate it from the rest, like this: "James, that is exactly what I mean..."

[Sydney]

That's not what I am reading. I see many sites, even colleges stating a difference between American and British usage.

[SeanDSchaffer]

With all due respect, Sydney--and this is in no way intended as a slam against you or the people you've been listening to--but have you ever picked up Strunk and White's Elements of Style and actually read it? You see, the cool thing about having read even a tiny book like Elements of Style, is that you can go back to it if you have a question. And you don't even have to punch in a bunch of questions on a Google search engine to do it.

Now I'm pretty sure you mean well in your endeavors here. As I have been reading your posts, you sound a lot like I did about ten or fifteen years ago. Sure of certain things, but unsure of the majority. In any case, you know you can write or you wouldn't be writing. But it does not bode well for you to tell professional editors and writers that they're wrong when you have stated point blank that you aren't confident with your own writing.

Instead of arguing with the people who know what they're doing, why not instead listen to them? You came to this site to learn, I take it? To learn how to write, to have confidence in your writing, etc. Then stop trying to teach, and listen with an open mind. You've been asking questions wonderfully, but I'm sorry to say you've not been very good at listening to people who know what they're doing.

As I write this, please understand that I'm not blowing up in your face or anything like that. We could all definitely use quizzes to keep our skills honed and our craft as sharp as it can be, and I'm not about to knock that. But I'm just trying to tell you what works. Listen to the other writers here, and take notes if you have to. If you really want to become a great writer--and I'm sure you do--then don't be afraid to have an open mind and willing to think twice about a particular way of doing things.

It's obvious to me you know quite a bit already. Why not try to write something down with what you already know? Nothing to be published, mind you, but simply something to have other writers critique. You could find their input very valuable in helping you to become the writer you really want to be.

[Sydney]

Good grief Sean, you aren't giving me a break.

I am listening to many editors including one above who supports my claims.
I have talked to several different editors on other forums and they also say it is a problem.

Thousands of writers and probably more around the world have problems in this area.

The downside is that it is affecting the way the professionals view our work.
Am I so wrong for making a place for some of us to go? That is what this forum is for.

Just because I am not listening to the same editors you are doesn't mean I am wrong. Just look at the 20 most common writing problems. I have seen oodles of colleges that teach just what I am saying.

Yes, I have read Strunk and I still prefer to use the computer. Also Strunk is online and I can access it here.

If you are skilled enough that you don't need help with it, then good for you. I would still like you here though, especially if you are going to help and not hinder, as you have given me other helpful advice.

[reph]

Good grief Sean, you aren't giving me a break.
Sydney, you came here for help with commas. Accordingly, here's some help: That sentence should read
Good grief, Sean, you aren't giving me a break.
As I recall, in fact, your first question concerned whether commas were needed around a name used that way. I answered that they were.

I can't help sharing Sean's observation that you don't seem to be listening and using the information that experienced writers and editors on this board offer.

I'd be interested in knowing what differences your sources identify between British and American comma usage. The only difference I'm aware of is in the typographical convention for where to put a quotation mark.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sydney, please read the first sentence in my previous post--especially the part between the dashes.

You'll find that many writers won't 'give you a break.' They'll tell it like it is, whether you want to hear it or not. The other writers on this thread have done everything we can to be tactful and kind, and shall continue to do so. If you refuse to listen to our advice, well, that's your problem, not ours.

But if you want to be a good writer, you will have to develop a so-called 'thick skin,' because if you want to be a good writer, you have to be willing to accept all criticism, the good and the bad.

You can do it, Sydney. It just takes lots of practice and lots of patience, with others as well as with yourself.

Believe it or not, we do want to help you become the best writer you possibly can be. If we didn't we would not be continuing this discussion.

[Sydney]

You are not hearing me. When I say in the beginning, advice about commas.

You seem to be thinking that I am talking about myself giving all of the advice. I never said that was the case, so I don't know where you are getting it. At the top I ask for contributers.

I am talking to three sectors.

#1 Those that need help with this.
#2 Those of you who do well at it. Also worldwide english editors.
#3 Those of you who think you know all of the answers, but really don't.

I have never professed to be a professor of literature, so please don't hint that I have.

I do know enough about it to be able to start this thread.

Just as you are able to start your own threads. I have a right to start my own thread.

I am a member just as you are and that is my right.

If it doesn't do well it can fade into oblivion. I can see from all those who have viewed both threads that many find it interesting. Perhaps even helpful.

I expected the comma subject to be a debate. I knew there would be altering opinions on all sides. I was hoping to be able to learn from all of that informative banter.

Also, if I want to be a little lazy and forget some commas. I have the right to do that as well. My goal here is to learn along with many others.

You can either help or not help. I know that I don't deserve to be hassled for starting this thread.

[reph]

I don't see anyone hassling you for starting the thread. I don't really see anyone hassling you at all. I do see some words of guidance, which you can take to heart or not, as you choose. Just please don't turn what people say into something they didn't say. That isn't fair.

[Sydney]

If you say so.

[SeanDSchaffer]

You are not hearing me. When I say in the beginning, advice about commas.

You seem to be thinking that I am talking about myself giving all of the advice. I never said that was the case, so I don't know where you are getting it. At the top I ask for contributers.

I am talking to three sectors.

#1 Those that need help with this.
#2 Those of you who do well at it. Also worldwide english editors.
#3 Those of you who think you know all of the answers, but really don't.

I have never professed to be a professor of literature, so please don't hint that I have.

I do know enough about it to be able to start this thread.

Just as you are able to start your own threads. I have a right to start my own thread.

I am a member just as you are and that is my right.

If it doesn't do well it can fade into oblivion. I can see from all those who have viewed both threads that many find it interesting. Perhaps even helpful.

I expected the comma subject to be a debate. I knew there would be altering opinions on all sides. I was hoping to be able to learn from all of that informative banter.

Also, if I want to be a little lazy and forget some commas. I have the right to do that as well. My goal here is to learn along with many others.

You can either help or not help. I know that I don't deserve to be hassled for starting this thread.


I never hassled you for starting this thread. I hassled you for saying that people who've been writing longer than I've been alive are wrong and that only the people you have listened to, are right. With the highest of respect to you, you have a bad attitude. If you're not willing to take the bad criticism with the good, you won't be able to improve.

After my first little speech about the 'Mind Games' that I made over at another thread you started, I realized that you were most probably someone who really wanted to learn. But your problem here, from day one, has been that you take every disagreement with what you believe about something as simple as punctuation, to be a personal insult against you.

No one here has insulted you as of yet, but you seem to think that everyone here--and especially myself, for some reason--is out to get you. Nothing could be further from the truth. You say you came here to learn, so sit back and listen to what people have to say, and learn. Stop being afraid of everybody and what they personally believe.

[Sydney]

Searched a bunch of sites on the serial comma, or the Oxford comma.

The results were that originally the series commma used commas before the word "and." Within the english language rules.

Then mostly american newspaper publishers began leaving the last comma before and, out.

This journalism habit spread and a lot of people started leaveing it out, including publishers, but only some publishers.

Some editors still say leaving it in is better. That reading is more clear with it in.

Many web sites say that also. Leaving all the commas in make the reading more clear, and is why the rule was there in the first place.

So the ending results were leave all the series commas in, unless your publisher wants you to take it out. Also, if you are working for a journal that is trying to save space. Whatever you do, be consistent.

Only one of many examples...
http://dianahacker.com/writersref/subpages_language/comseries.html

[Sydney]

All I have recieved from you mostly, especially lately, is just your long rambling lectures towards me.

Instead of talking about commas and trying to help here.

Allow others to have different opinions than you regarding punctuation. Eventually, we will get more imput and the answer will reveal itself. That is when you took offense and started lecturing me about my personality.

Enough. If you don't want to help, don't.

[Birol]

Sydney, I'm not certain why you believe Sean is not staying on topic. His advice has been good, not just about commas but punctuation in general.

I'm puzzled about what different opinions you expect to find about comma usage or what type of discussion you would like to have. Can you please explain what you are after?

[Garbarian]

Sydney, it seems pretty clear from reading your threads that you are looking for some sort of magical list of hard and fast grammar rules that every editor agrees with. It doesn't exist. This is largely because there are two major camps in the debate: those who favor "open" punctuation (less commas, drop the serial comma); and those who favor "closed" (more commas, use the serial comma). Neither one is The Right Way, and in many cases the publisher is going to end up deciding for you, based on house-style.

Reph's example of the sentence as a house is apt. You know what a door is, but the door isn't the same on every structure. It doesn't have to be in the center of the house, or made of wood. It can be to the side, or made of glass, so long as it still functions as a door and is recognized as such. The same with commas and many other questions of grammar. Serial comma or no serial comma, it is clear what the sentence is doing -- and it is correct both ways. As stated earlier, house-style is going to determine whether or not there is a serial comma anyway. Now, a list without ANY commas? Like a door opening to a brick wall.

Grammar is not easy for everybody, but you're just going to confuse yourself trying to find The Rule for every grammatical question. Get Strunk and White. Keep it next to your computer. Read quality writing. Read some more. Look at the sentences, and how they are working, how "the house" is built. You can even get a copyeditor's handbook, or, if you're really serious, take a copyediting class at the local college.

Finally, listen to the advice others have given. You want to know how professionals do it? Well, you're lucky, because you have several right here on this thread telling you. Some of us are professional editors, some of us teach editing and writing at the university level, and all of us understand how grammar works. Every editor knows people have different ideas about punctuation, but all editors expect the writer to know what a door is, too.

[Sydney]

Sean said.Instead of arguing with the people who know what they're doing, why not instead listen to them?

I never argued with anyone. All I did was state a different opinion. This board is about differing opinions and then debating it and coming up with answers.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Sean said,
I hassled you for saying that people who've been writing longer than I've been alive are wrong and that only the people you have listened to, are right. With the highest of respect to you, you have a bad attitude.


So he just admitted that he did hassle me.

I never said that people I have heard are right and the people that are in here are wrong. I never said that his punctuation advice was wrong. So these statements made by him are incorrect. All I stated was a different opinion. He took it upon himself to get personal again and say my attitude is bad. If it makes me have a bad attitude just for having a different opinion than that means he doesn't know how to debate properly. Instead he imagines that I am challenging his and others ability to edit, and I never challenged that.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Here is writers dock and the British and Australians can debate any kind of punctuation. If you look they can have different opinions and not take it personally. They don't just have a few punctuation topics, but many. I should have that same opportunity here.

http://www.writersdock.co.uk/

Regarding what I am trying to do here. I have already told you many times. If we are able to openly discuss it than many of us will remember the rules better. Discussing things sometimes helps some of us to remember things, better than just reading it would.
If you aren't one of those people than it is your choice to help or not.

All I am trying to do is have a thread about commas with open debate. Without the personal attacks. Other forums can do this and any one who wants to help or not.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Sydney,

First, let me apologize if I have seemed arrogant in any way, shape or form toward you. Such was never my intent.

Second, let me just say that I never took your difference of opinion personally. Nor did I take offense by your difference of opinion. What I took personal offense at was the way you've been acting toward myself and other writers who disagree with you. I agree wholeheartedly that there should be open debate; but to be honest, any time someone has disagreed with you, I have seen you berate them or treat them like they're picking on you.

None of us are picking on you. We're just trying to tell you what we know and have used for many years in our experiences with the writing field. I assume this is what you intended when you started this thread.


I noticed in one of your previous posts concerning me, you put a sentence fragment in a place all by itself. This would have been an excellent place to exercise the punctuation we're talking about in this thread. This would have saved you a lot of space in your post and would have made just as much sense as it did when you originally wrote it....if not more.

Let me explain what I'm talking about:

You said:

"All I have recieved from you mostly, especially lately, is just your long rambling lectures towards me.

"Instead of talking about commas and trying to help here."


Instead of using two sentences here, you could have saved yourself some time and space by using a comma between 'me' and 'Instead.' The reason for this is that your two sentences are one statement, which should be brought together with a comma. Your last 'sentence,' is in fact, a sentence fragment that needs something to back it up.

Look at how it reads when you put them together:

"All I have received from you mostly, especially lately, is just your long rambling lectures towards me, instead of talking about commas and trying to help here."

In professional circles, and even in basic writing taught in Elementary School (that's where I learned how to use the Comma,) this is considered much more appropriate a way to put your thoughts down on paper. It looks more professional, is easier to read, and makes for an overall better appearance to your work.

[reph]

Sydney, I looked at some discussions of punctuation on writersdock. They start with someone asking a question about how to punctuate something. Then a bunch of people give opinions. However, many of the "answers" are wrong. People will say "I think you're supposed to do it this way..." and give an example that shows they don't understand the principle behind the way you're really supposed to do it. Members of that board are at different stages in learning correct written English.

I suppose you could call that kind of discussion a debate, but it isn't the kind of debate that proceeds by tossing ideas back and forth and ends by establishing what the right answer shall be. Answers to questions about commas are already known, and a debate won't help, especially if the debaters don't know their stuff. (That doesn't mean there's only one right way to handle every comma situation. Sometimes the writer has a choice. Sometimes, as with series commas, the publisher has picked one way, and the writer must go along with it.) To get a comma question answered, starting a debate and hoping for a consensus isn't a reliable method. Instead, you ask the question and wait for answers from knowledgeable people. That happens on this board all the time, with all kinds of questions, not just ones about punctuation.

So, when you say people are free to help or not, it isn't clear what kind of help you're talking about. I should think the best help for people who are uncertain about punctuation would come from people who have mastered it. They can answer questions directly; they can recommend other sources for study. Some participants in this thread have done both, and you still seem to think we're not trying to help.

About British/American usage: Use of the series comma doesn't currently divide at the Atlantic. In the US, it depends mostly on the level of formality of the publication.

[SeanDSchaffer]

....was the basic idea of using it in place of 'and.' I shall never forget my 2nd Grade Teacher's explanation of this, simply because the way he put it came across as humorous to me as a student.

Mr. Vickrey was his name, and he told us about the use of 'and' versus the comma. His example was that of someone saying, "I did this AND this AND this AND this AND so on." He explained that, rather than using all those 'ands' simple commas could be placed after them. It was a humorous way of thinking about it, although if we had laughed we would have gotten sent to principal's office. Mr. Vickrey was a great teacher, but he was also, in my opinion, very impatient.

[Sydney]

I never took offense to anyone, ever. All I did was stick up for myself when you took offense to my differing opinion than your own.

If you want to talk about commas, then talk about commas. If you want to personally attack and start a flame then go somewhere else. I will no longer participate.

When you look up the "differences between British and American punctuation" on the internet you get 55 thousand hits. That is a huge amount.

Still, it will be too difficult to argue about the differences all the time, as most rules generally work for both.

So we will be general. You don't have to say each time if you are talking about American or British english. We will all assume our quizzes and conversations work for both the American and British english. However, if you find a quiz that states it is geared for one more than the other. Please tell us.

http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html

[SeanDSchaffer]

I never took offense to anyone, ever. All I did was stick up for myself when you took offense to my differing opinion than your own.

I have never taken offense to your differing opinion. Only to the way you have treated other writers on this board who differ with your opinions.

If you want to talk about commas, then talk about commas. If you want to personally attack and start a flame then go somewhere else. I will no longer participate.

And what exactly have I been talking about for my previous two posts, Sydney? I could swear those posts have been about commas.


It is obvious to me you are not willing to listen to anyone's opinions that might differ with your own. You have completely ignored any and all talk about commas for the last several posts and focused on my personal faults. Like a chicken that pecks at a bloodspot on another chicken's face, all you have focused on when I have posted on this thread--regardless of what I have said--has been my faults.

Could it be, Sydney, that your pride in what you think you know is causing you to fight back against those who tell you you're wrong? Could it be that your need to be right has blinded you from the focus of this or any thread you have started? I don't know anything about you, except you have fought tooth and nail to be recognized as right when by all standards, American as well as British, you are wrong.

Writing style is a debatable issue. Passive versus Active Voice is a debatable issue. Punctuation and Grammar are not debatable issues. Granted, they are not set in stone, but they are rules that writers must follow if they want to be successful.

If you would simply sit back and listen to what others have to say without going ballistic on them for disagreeing with you, I know you would learn much more than you ever could have hoped to with the attitude you have been showing toward us.

One more thing: I am not out to get you, Sydney. I am out to help another writer succeed. It's up to you to decide how you respond to my desire to help you succeed as a writer. So far, the only response I have received from you is disdain and rebuke....and for some bizarre reason, fear.

Why are you afraid of what I have to say?

[Birol]

Okay, guys, why don't we let this topic go?

[SeanDSchaffer]

Understood. I won't mention it again, Birol.

[Sydney]

I am starting a new comma thread. The other one was filled with too many negative vibes, and is counter productive to all the Absolute Write readers, and lurkers.

There were a lot of people viewing this thread. That shows that there is a lot of interest in the topic.

This thread is for all who want to learn more about the comma rules. A small list of english rules worldwide, that have many ways they can be used. This is what fouls up many people, all their different usages.

There are a few minor rules in here. Please participate if you can follow them. If you can't you will be reminded. If it continues, the monitor will be called.

This thread is also for those of us who learn better by cataloging. Those of us who learn better by discussion, instead of thousands of details from a book.

We have the computer and internet at our disposal, so I am utilizing that as the tool.

Quizzes and other informative web sites will be included. Please don't include web sites that are very unorganized.

Most of the British and American rules are the same. The differences can be pointed out if you wish, as long as you treat others with respect. It will help all of us learn.

It is a fact that commas in particular are one of the biggest problems that writers have. It is also a fact that many professionals believe, if writers learn more about the rules of the comma, their writing will improve. It might help many turn in adequate work, instead of inadequate work. The ability to use the language will then be better mastered.

Also we will be able to omit a comma for effect in our writing, instead of from ignorance.

Contributers to the subject of commas are welcome. Editors with differing views are welcome. Their are many professional editors with opposing views.

Personal critiques towards someones writing on here and flame starting can go elsewhere. Unless they ask for your critique of their writing.

Others are here to learn and their typing shouldn't be disected. After all, their comma problems is why they are here in the first place. Let them ask their questions. Even if there are comma errors in their questions and answers. Instead of picking on them for their writing, concentrate on what the subject of their questions and answers are instead.

Editors, publishers, writers, and any other publishing professionals should be able to relax here. As well as any other person on the planet.

Regarding the professionals, they should be able to enjoy this thread. Even though they are experts, they should be able to come in and miss a comma or two. Without being jumped on by other posters. Listen to the content of thier comments please, instead of attacking their sentences.

Thank you very much, for your help and contributions.

http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html

[SeanDSchaffer]

A small list of english rules worldwide, that have many ways they can be used. This is what fouls up many people, all their different usages.


Very good point, Sydney. I honestly had not thought about it. The different usages would be brought about not only by worldwide uses, but even by uses within the same country and perhaps in the same state or province. For those who don't know, these different uses of the same basic language are referred to as 'dialects.' It therefore makes perfect sense that different dialects would use commas differently.

An excellent example of this can be found in books having to do with certain parts of, say, the United States. How people use the language in, say, Mississippi, would most certainly, because of the dialect they speak, use commas differently than someone from Oregon, such as myself. How Mark Twain used the language would differ tremendously from how Jenna Glatzer would, because of their location and dialect.

Excellent point.

[Birol]

Sydney, you need to take a deep breath.

This is the third comma thread you have started. The other two remain open. I am seriously considering merging them in order to keep everything on one topic together. The individuals who responded to the last thread were not flaming you -- trust me when I say flamewars on AW are much more intense than what you were experiencing -- their comments on comma usage, etc., were meant to be friendly and helpful. They were just using the examples before them to respond to your questions.

The responses you were receiving were also from some experts in the field. For instance, Reph works professionally as a non-fiction copy editor. Commas are her business. So are semi-colons, colons, and other matters of punctuation. She could also tell you the difference between affect and effect. That is not to say that the experts are always correct, but one should not discount what they are saying out of hand.

One last thing, Sydney, I'm not certain how things work on other boards, but on AW regular members cannot really say who is allowed and who is not allowed to respond to the threads, warn other members, or take appropriate action, even in threads they have started. If things get out of hand or go too far astray, trust a mod to step in, as I did in the last thread. That is why we are here.

[Birol]

I've merged all four of the existing comma threads.