Procrastination or part of the writing process?

[Optimus]

Being inspired to post another link to a thread that I've found immensely useful/inspirational (check my post in the "Is writing a skill" thread if you're interested) I'm...well...going to do it again.

There's a user on Done Deal, "Tao," who's a pro screenwriter (not sure if he wants his identity broadcast, so I'll just use his username "Taotropics") who occasionally posts very insightful, heartfelt, rather existential analyses of writing. Of course, he's referring to screenwriting but his thoughts are applicable to all writing and artistic pursuits in general.

He's a great poster, inspirational in an avuncular kind of way, and his posts are pure gold.

Anyway, this post of his is on the differences between procrastinating and "steeping the tea" when it comes to your writing.

I hope you guys find as much value in it (and his other posts) as I have.

http://www.scriptsales.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3257

[storygirl]

Interesting post. A lot of neat insights.

I'm not a LTP, but I might take 'steeping the tea' to a new extreme and bounce between it and procrastination.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the link.

[DamaNegra]

Thanks for the post!!

It is definitely worth a good read, because everything said on it is true and applicable to writing novels. I'm definitely going to try his 'write every other day' advice.

[Jamesaritchie]

His methods seem to work for him, but I think he's just found a way to make procrastination work, and found a fancy way to avoid writing.

He started losing me as soon as he wrote: "On the contrary, what you need is a practice of integration and self-love that will allow you to risk failure in the presence of a supportive audience (yourself)."

Yeah, un-huh.

He lost me completely when he wrote: "And I don't write every day. I write every other day until about two weeks to deadline. Then I write every day."

This is the classic sign of the "accomplsihed procrastinator," the person who finds all sorts of reasons and methods not to work until the dealine is near, and then they buckle down and work hard every day until the job is finished. It's the very first symptom psychologists look for when dealing with someone who may be a procrastinator.

If his methods really worked, he wouldn't have to do this.

Let's say you write four hours each and every day. This leaves twenty hours each and every day to steep until your tea is as srong as you want it.

What works, works, but I think he's couching his procrastination in fancy language, and when the deadline approaches he stops procrastinating and gets down to serious work.

If you really want to be a writer, you sit down and write. Not many people can make procrastinating until two weeks before deadline work, trying to do is is a leading cause of failure, and not many new writers are lucky enough to have deadlines at all.

[scarletpeaches]

Why do you need to procrastinate if the book's in your head, waiting to be written? The only way to get a book 'done' is to, well...write it. I start at the beginning an I stop when I get to the end, with occasional toilet/sleep/eating/worship breaks in between. Social life optional.

[goatpiper]

I'm going to have to agree with you there, James.
I thought it was an interesting post, but I found myself using it as a justification for procrastination (something I have a problem with). As I read, I was thinking 'Yeah, that sounds good, sure, I have to let things work themselves out in my head...I don't have to write everyday'. I'm just glad that the alarm klaxon in my head went off and stopped me from falling deeper into 'justified procrastination'.
If I skip even a day, I have a much harder time approaching my WIP when I get back to it. I discover a lot of my writing by writing it - I don't use an outline, and I certainly don't have things worked out thoroughly before I sit down to write.
I'm glad it works for this person, but it could never work for me.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm going to have to agree with you there, James.
I thought it was an interesting post, but I found myself using it as a justification for procrastination (something I have a problem with). As I read, I was thinking 'Yeah, that sounds good, sure, I have to let things work themselves out in my head...I don't have to write everyday'. I'm just glad that the alarm klaxon in my head went off and stopped me from falling deeper into 'justified procrastination'.
If I skip even a day, I have a much harder time approaching my WIP when I get back to it. I discover a lot of my writing by writing it - I don't use an outline, and I certainly don't have things worked out thoroughly before I sit down to write.
I'm glad it works for this person, but it could never work for me.

My thoughts exactly. I lose the thread of the story if I do this, so I have to go back and read over...rewrite...more procrastination. The only way to get a book written is to use the computer, word processor or pen and paper.

[historian]

I am not a writer, I'm a secretary. My subconscious does the composing and I just write down what it tells me. I've learned not to I do anything until it's ready. If I try, it's just garbage and no matter how I work on it, it remains so.

My muse is a trickster, too. It likes to surface in the middle of the night or when I've got my hands in the dishwater or potting soil (I'm a garden writer under my other hat) and demand I get to the computer, RIGHT NOW.

Sigh.

historian

[Tish Davidson]

I need thinking time, but it has to be limited or it turns into procrastination and then it just gets harder and harder to get started. I notice that James says he walks between writing sessions. I usually walk the dogs in the morning before I write and think about what I am going to do that day, then again in the evening and think about what I have done that day and what the problems with it are. These regular thought periods seem to keep my subconscious working, so that when I write, the writing is more on target (more useable stuff and less wandering garbage on the page). If I don't take these regular thinking times (one writer friend calls it walking around time), then I have to work out all the kinks in my writing on the page and that is frustrating and the dogs aren't very happy either. I consider this thinking as writing meditation that needs to be practiced just like any form of meditation.

[DamaNegra]

My muse is a trickster, too. It likes to surface in the middle of the night or when I've got my hands in the dishwater or potting soil (I'm a garden writer under my other hat) and demand I get to the computer, RIGHT NOW.

Sigh.

historian

Lol, then we have the same muse!! I've solved that problem by carrying my Palm everywhere with me and writing down my ideas on it. Why a palm and not a notebook? First of all, less paper wasted. Second, I just plug in the palm to the computer and voila! it uploads everything. Copying from notebook to screen didn't work for me when I tried.

[historian]

Please what is a Palm. It sounds marvellous.


historian

[SeanDSchaffer]

historian,

First, welcome to the Water Cooler. It's good to meet you.

Second, A 'Palm' is a hand-held computer with a small stylus that looks like a pencil. You write directly onto the screen, if I understand correctly. My psychiatrist uses one. It's a very handy little device. You save the information onto a little card inside the Palm, and then when you want the information put onto your big computer, you can take the little card out of the Palm and insert it into a card reader on your big machine and read it just like you would a regular floppy disk.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, a Palm can plug directly into some machines using a USB port or firewire port.


I hope this helps you out, and again, welcome to the Cooler.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[zeprosnepsid]

I think this may have something to do with the difference between novels and screenplays. I don't need time to 'steep' when it comes to my novel. But I do find the 'steeping' time invaluable when it comes to my screenplay. The best screenplay I ever wrote spent many long commutes living only in my head, then it came out in one spurt of a weekend and I've made very few changes to it in subsequent drafts. That wouldn't have happened without the steeping time.

I am a procrastinator and I felt this post really related to me as a screenwriter. I did feel it didn't related as closely to me as a novelist.

[Mistook]

Is it fair to say that a screenplay is a lot less writing than a novel? Mostly it's dialogue right? And the word count is much lower than an ordinary novel?

I find writing fiction that even when I'm sitting at the keyboard writing dialogue, most of that time is spent staring at the screen between lines, ruminating over exactly how the next line should be said.

And I would imagine with a screenplay, the words are even more critical, because you have no recourse to describing character thoughts, inner emotions, and not even physical gestures right?

I could believe that with a screenplay, most of the writing actually happens inside rather than outside the head.

[Celia Cyanide]

Is it fair to say that a screenplay is a lot less writing than a novel? Mostly it's dialogue right? And the word count is much lower than an ordinary novel?

I find writing fiction that even when I'm sitting at the keyboard writing dialogue, most of that time is spent staring at the screen between lines, ruminating over exactly how the next line should be said.

And I would imagine with a screenplay, the words are even more critical, because you have no recourse to describing character thoughts, inner emotions, and not even physical gestures right?

I could believe that with a screenplay, most of the writing actually happens inside rather than outside the head.

Mostly dialog and lower word count, yes. And since it's mostly dialog, it flows out more, like when you write dialog in fiction. At least my experience with dialog in anything has been that it just comes out, and you revise it later if it doesn't work, and you don't have that ruminating you described.

This part is hard to explain, but I think that with screenwriting, I, at least, spend more time visualizing how the scene will look and feel, and then I describe that. When writing fiction, visualizing doesn't really help. I'm not even sure why that is. When I write fiction, I just have to start writing it to get the look and feel to come across.

[FolkloreFanatic]

And I would imagine with a screenplay, the words are even more critical, because you have no recourse to describing character thoughts, inner emotions, and not even physical gestures right?

I could believe that with a screenplay, most of the writing actually happens inside rather than outside the head.

Yes, although writing a screenplay is as much about what you don't say than what you do, so it's just as difficult as writing a novel.

Think about Gone With The Wind. That movie was pushing screen length far enough as it was at the time, and the paperback version I have of the book clocked in at 1024 pp. O.o So many things are left out of the film, but it has to tell the same story and push all the same nuances and give the same observations, for the most part.

I find it a lot easier to push more words in than to leave most words out.

[Ken Schneider]

What if you procrastinate on your day job, what would happen?


Just a thought.

Ken S.

[Mistook]

Yes, although writing a screenplay is as much about what you don't say than what you do, so it's just as difficult as writing a novel.

Think about Gone With The Wind. That movie was pushing screen length far enough as it was at the time, and the paperback version I have of the book clocked in at 1024 pp. O.o So many things are left out of the film, but it has to tell the same story and push all the same nuances and give the same observations, for the most part.

I find it a lot easier to push more words in than to leave most words out.


Oh yes. I wouldn't doubt that for a second. The reason I take so long in writing dialogue is for similar reasons. I don't really like explaining outright what the characters are thinking and feeling, so I try to make all that evident in the dialogue without being obvious about it.

So in that respect, much is "left out".

Also, a lot of backstory must be left out, which isn't easy to pull off.

I can only imagine how much tougher it would be to have the relatively tight wordcount/time constraints of a screenplay and try to tell the same story in that format.

I'm thinking of the latest Harry Potter movie, where the book is a masonry block. I understand they cut a lot of the story out to get the movie to fly, but from what I hear, most of what they cut doesn't sound very interesting anyway... a huge subplot about the house elves for instance (yawn).

I think there's a danger when a novelist becomes wildly successful. The combination of tighter deadlines and more creative freedom usually results in a story bloated with stuff that would've been cut if it had been a first novel.

And now I"m going off on a tangent. Sorry.

[mkcbunny]

When I was working as a full-time editor with daily deadlines, I wrote under any circumstances. No room for "I don't feel like it," or "I'm sick," or "It's not flowing today." I wrote what was due by the deadline, and I was able to do this for years. Prior to that, I was a freelance writer who worked every day on a schedule. But that was all non-fiction writing. Now that I am writing fiction, it is an entirely different process. If it's not flowing and I am staring at the paper, there's no deadline, for one thing.

On a deeper level, I think that sometimes I resented working 65-hour weeks and having to submit something I thought was mediocre because that's all I could get out with a tight deadline. But that was the job, and I was lucky to have it. [I also loved it, by the way.] But now, on my own time, I think I'm rebelling against all of that forced structure. I don't want to write when I'm feeling overtired and brain-shot, for example. So I don't write every day.

Lord knows people with arduous full-time jobs get up at 4 am to write before work and make it happen. Others come home from work and write during the wee evening hours. But I can't do that. I have to feel rested and OK when I work. So I make time and set a schedule, but it's not every day.

I would never encourage anyone to do anything other that write every day. But it's a little depressing to read again and again that if you don't do it every day, you're somehow not as worthy as everyone who does. And frankly, reading comments like "If you don't write every day, you're not a writer," is just infuriating.

[blacbird]

it's a little depressing to read again and again that if you don't do it every day, you're somehow not as worthy as everyone who does. And frankly, reading comments like "If you don't write every day, you're not a writer," is just infuriating.

Ooooooh, oooooooh, you're going to offend the expert(s) here.

caw.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Snipped for Length....

Lord knows people with arduous full-time jobs get up at 4 am to write before work and make it happen. others come home from work and write during the wee evening hours. But I can't do that. I have to feel rested and OK when I work. So I make time and set a schedule, but it's not every day.

I would never encourage anyone to do anything other that write every day. But it's a little depressing to read again and again that if you don't do it every day, you're somehow not as worthy as everyone who does. And frankly, reading comments like "If you don't write every day, you're not a writer," is just infuriating.

My Emphasis.

I agree completely with mkcbunny on this. The remarks above pretty much hit the mark with me. I don't write every day, either. I'd like to be able to, but my physical health does not allow me to do so. Like mkcbunny said, I too have to feel rested and okay when I do my work. If I'm pressured, my work suffers tremendously, specifically in quality. If I work when I'm ready to go and my body is up to the task, my work is good. But if I'm feeling like garbage physically, I can produce some decent work, but nowhere near what I personally prefer to produce.

So when someone says that writing every day is a must to be a writer, it is upsetting to quite an extent. It makes me feel like I'm doing wrong by resting up and getting the job done right, whereas I should be happy I've done what work I've done.

So I agree wholeheartedly with mkcbunny's remarks. It might not be popular to think this way, but I for one did not enter the Writing Profession to win a popularity contest. I became a writer because I love to write. Just because I might not write as often as several others, doesn't mean I don't love my work.

And trust me: I love this work. If I didn't, I wouldn't be doing it. Janitorial used to pay me a lot more than Writing ever has.

[Optimus]

He lost me completely when he wrote: "And I don't write every day. I write every other day until about two weeks to deadline. Then I write every day."

This is the classic sign of the "accomplsihed procrastinator," the person who finds all sorts of reasons and methods not to work until the dealine is near, and then they buckle down and work hard every day until the job is finished. It's the very first symptom psychologists look for when dealing with someone who may be a procrastinator.

If his methods really worked, he wouldn't have to do this.

......

If you really want to be a writer, you sit down and write. Not many people can make procrastinating until two weeks before deadline work, trying to do is is a leading cause of failure, and not many new writers are lucky enough to have deadlines at all.


Well, obviously his methods do work, or he wouldn't be one of the more in-demand screenwriters in Hollywood right now. I also disagree that one must sit down in front of the computer everyday and write or one is not "really" a writer or "really wanting to be a writer."

Indeed there are many writers out there who no doubt adhere to this mentality and do write everyday, consistently churning out unsaleable garbage.

I understand that everyone has their opinions, but I think some people here might have missed his point. His post isn't suggesting a certain type of writing schedule/process. It was a post of encouragement and understanding.

The crux of his message is in the following text. I've emphasized the parts I feel are the most important to keep in mind when reading his post.

And I hardly ever write more than an hour a half in a day. Usually more like an hour. Sometimes I'll go more, but almost never longer than three hours. And I don't write every day. I write every other day until about two weeks to deadline. Then I write every day.

I am in complete sync with this quirk of mine because I know it produces enough good work for me to be happy. Other writers are different. Some love writing long, pounding days of 8-10 hours. Others procrastinate for months on end, then shove the writing into a big cram session at the end where they write 18 hours a day for one week. It doesn't matter. There is no "right" kind of process.

[Mistook]

I've taken some very long breaks in the writing of my one unfinished manuscript, and this is one of the reasons I'm still not finished after two years (the other is that I spent a year of trial and error simply learning the basics).

I am a life long procrastinator, even at my day job, which makes me quite sure I'm not cut out for fiction as a career. Still, I believe that when I finish this one novel, it will be good, and it will get published. That's my goal.

I only pause in the writing for one of three reasons:

1) The following chapter requires a good deal of research even to get a rough draft going. I take a few weeks to research and continue the manuscript.

2) The following chapter fills me with nameless dread. I rethink the proposed chapter until I hit upon something that I truly want to write, and continue.

3) Sleep deficit due to endless late night writing sessions accumulates to the point where I can barely function during normal working hours, and where I fall asleep at my computer while writing at night. When it gets that bad, I need at least three weeks to recharge my batteries.

None of this makes me carreer novelist material, I'd be driving the publisher up a wall with my slow progress. But I do think that in the end I'll have the one story, and that it will be fantastic. Perhaps by some miracle, it will be a best seller, and I won't need a day job, in which case, I may find the time to complete another in a timely manner. But I'm not holding my breath about that.

[blisswriter]

Thank you Optimus. I appreciate your link to this post. It was entertaining and informative. Just what I need at this point because I've been procrastinating for a bit too long this time.:popcorn:




Being inspired to post another link to a thread that I've found immensely useful/inspirational (check my post in the "Is writing a skill" thread if you're interested) I'm...well...going to do it again.

There's a user on Done Deal, "Tao," who's a pro screenwriter (not sure if he wants his identity broadcast, so I'll just use his username "Taotropics") who occasionally posts very insightful, heartfelt, rather existential analyses of writing. Of course, he's referring to screenwriting but his thoughts are applicable to all writing and artistic pursuits in general.

He's a great poster, inspirational in an avuncular kind of way, and his posts are pure gold.

Anyway, this post of his is on the differences between procrastinating and "steeping the tea" when it comes to your writing.

I hope you guys find as much value in it (and his other posts) as I have.

http://www.scriptsales.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3257

[Pencilone]

I've taken some very long breaks in the writing of my one unfinished manuscript, and this is one of the reasons I'm still not finished after two years (the other is that I spent a year of trial and error simply learning the basics).

I am a life long procrastinator, even at my day job, which makes me quite sure I'm not cut out for fiction as a career. Still, I believe that when I finish this one novel, it will be good, and it will get published. That's my goal.

I only pause in the writing for one of three reasons:

1) The following chapter requires a good deal of research even to get a rough draft going. I take a few weeks to research and continue the manuscript.

2) The following chapter fills me with nameless dread. I rethink the proposed chapter until I hit upon something that I truly want to write, and continue.

3) Sleep deficit due to endless late night writing sessions accumulates to the point where I can barely function during normal working hours, and where I fall asleep at my computer while writing at night. When it gets that bad, I need at least three weeks to recharge my batteries.

None of this makes me carreer novelist material, I'd be driving the publisher up a wall with my slow progress. But I do think that in the end I'll have the one story, and that it will be fantastic. Perhaps by some miracle, it will be a best seller, and I won't need a day job, in which case, I may find the time to complete another in a timely manner. But I'm not holding my breath about that.

I'm no expert, but I can only say from my limited experience. It's better to make the research after the first draft. Just make a small note in a bracket that a particular subject needs to be researched and move on. When you do your rewriting, you'll decide if you really need the research and then you do the research. Otherwise the so dreaded research can become procrastination so easily. Not to mention that after you finished the first draft, you might completely change your mind about that particular research and decide you don't need it after all, or you need something different.

What you need in the first draft is to get the story down (out of your system) as quickly as possible (so it's fresh and full of unexpected turns). Once it's out, you can mule over it and identifiy the proper structure and rework it to the desired shape.

I personally don't believe in sleepless night (unless it's an emergency - like a next day exam or a delivery) because they just make you tired and you start to put pressure on yourself and then procrastinate. I believe it's better to write or think about your novel in small chunks during the day. For instance, during Nano I found a method that worked great for me: to write every hour only 300 words (or even less) and then stop till the next hour. The small chunks of writing add up nicely at the end of the day and you'll be surprised at how much you've written without burning out. Of course, if a day job (or other life commitments) does not allow you to try it all day, you can try it part of the day or during weekends.

And one more thing to remember is that this is only the first book. Get it over with, get it finished and move to the next one. And then to the next one. I'm guilty of this myself as I still rework and rework my first one. I don't know, maybe some writers are doomed to rewrite the same book over and over, while others find it easier to move on quickly to the next one?

Optimus, thanks for the link. The writing process is so different for any one of us and I feel we can benefit a lot by knowing what makes it work for some of us.:Thumbs:

[Tish Davidson]

Let me rephrase the write every day sentiment.

I think that if you want to make a living out of writing, you need to write/research/edit just about every day. It is not much different from performing any other activity that provides you with the majority of your income. Even people such as pro football players who only play once a week still work out and study films just about every day. This doesn't meant that people who don't write every day aren't writers or are incapable of producing good writing, but in general, the "wait for my muse to appear" type writers are not going to produce enough writing to make a living from writing.

[Optimus]

Perhaps.

But, what constitutes the difference between "typing" everyday and "writing?"

I'm not trying to be coy, but there are other things one must do in order to tell an outstanding story. The writer must research for some stories. If the person spends the entire day researching for their story, without actually sitting in front of the keyboard banging out pages, are they not performing some part of the "writing" process?

Some writers outline. If they spend the day outlining their story and not banging away pages in front of the keyboard, are they also not "writing?"

Some writers like to brainstorm ideas, approach things from different perspectives. If the writer spends the day brainstorming ideas about future story elements/ideas or brainstorming ways to improve the scenes they wrote yesterday, rather than fruitlessly banging away at a keyboard, are even they not "writing?"

This was a main part of Tao's post.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. For every successful writer who spends everyday typing pages (who's to say whether or not those pages are good or bad) and I can show you, there is the equally (or more) successful writer who doesn't "type" everyday.

[Mistook]

I'm no expert, but I can only say from my limited experience. It's better to make the research after the first draft. Just make a small note in a bracket that a particular subject needs to be researched and move on. When you do your rewriting, you'll decide if you really need the research and then you do the research. Otherwise the so dreaded research can become procrastination so easily.


I agree with you. But sometimes you can't even get a draft without some very basic research. For instance, I have a chapter that takes place in Seattle. I felt I needed to familiarize myself with the terrain, the map, weather patterns, etc, before I could write the first draft. Sometimes, things like that can affect the plot.

For example, I might have written about a high speed car chase only to find out later that the terrain is very hilly, the roads are often wet, etc, which would drastically change the nature and possibly the outcome of that chase, which in turn could affect the rest of the story.

Also, my story is to some degree historical fiction, which requires some research as well. But I agree with what you've posted. Anything that can wait should, and the first draft should be finished as quickly as possible. I wouldn't encourage anybody to write the way that I do, but at the same time, I can't really fault them either.

You mentioned the next book and the next. For me, if there is a next book, it will be a sequel to the one I'm writing now. Like I said, I'm not cut out for carreer writing. As a writer, this is the one story I care to tell. As a musician or a painter, I have done and will likely finish other works, and I'm sure I'll do other types of writing, but as far as novels go, for me, this is it.

[mkcbunny]

This discussion makes me think of The Singing Detective.

[banjo]

I like the concept of "steeping the tea". That is one that never occurred to me.

I have slowed down on the ending of my book in the last couple of weeks. I changed something earlier in the plot that now makes my previously planned ending inappropriate for my story. I have to create a new ending that generates as much impact as the original ending.

I worked on it for a time and it wasn't coming to me. So lately I've been writing other things. But I am trying to stay true to the daily writing regiment. And my book has never left my conscious or unconscious mind.

Writing inspiration is so personal, that sometimes general rules that apply so effectively to others don't quite seem to work for me, so I modify as needed to get the job done.

Many times I will wake from a deep sleep with a "soultion in hand", when all the previous wood burning thought hasn't provided me an answer. So for me the tea steeping model works. I just hadn't identified the concept.

Now I am certainly not the one to advise others on process, this is just my opinion and my perspective at this time. Not long ago I wasn't even writing every day, I was waiting on inspiration. This forum has provided me with a great deal of practical information that has been useful in my writing. These are just my two cents.

[reph]

If [writers spend] the entire day researching for their story, without actually sitting in front of the keyboard banging out pages, [or] outlining their story [or] brainstorming ideas about future story elements/ideas or brainstorming ways to improve the scenes they wrote yesterday,...are...they not "writing?"
I consider these activities part of writing. Proofreading your work and revising are other parts. You're working on the project. Is there a controversy?