Trying to make this dialog work

[underthecity]

In my WIP, my main character is ten year old Butch. He sells newspapers and other sundries on a train in 1895.

He's very jumpy and nervous this morning. I have this quick dialog exchange where I'm trying to demonstrate that:

“Boy!” Butch jumped when the man in seat 12 hollered. “Newspaper and coffee.”

As his hands trembled and his heart raced like a runaway train, he poured the man some coffee.


I don't mind saying this, but the above dialog sucks. The idea here is that the man startles Butch when he yells "Boy!" and this makes his hands tremble and heart race.

I've tinkered with these lines in so many different ways that this has become a real stumbling block. I would now like to ask for assistance to help make them better.

Thanks!

allen

[maestrowork]

How about:

“Boy!” a man hollered. Butch jumped. It was the man in seat 12. “Newspaper and coffee.”

As his hands trembled and his heart raced like a runaway train, he poured the man some coffee.

[emeraldcite]

“Boy!” Butch jumped when the man in seat 12 hollered. “Newspaper and coffee.”

As his hands trembled and his heart raced like a runaway train, he poured the man some coffee.


"Boy!"

Butch spun, wide-eyed. The man in seat 12 hollered again, his booming voice rattling the wood paneling [or whatever they had inside a late 19th century train].

"Newspaper and coffee."

Butch hurried back, nearly spilling the coffee as he balanced his merchandise against the train's vibration and the shaking in his hands. Butch poured the man his cup, those still wide eyes staring at the pot in his hands.



That was fun.

[Sharon Mock]

“Boy!” Butch jumped when the man in seat 12 hollered. “Newspaper and coffee.”

As his hands trembled and his heart raced like a runaway train, he poured the man some coffee.
There's three details -- jumping, hands trembling, heart racing -- all of which illustrate the same underlying nervousness. Maybe removing one of them will make the passage flow better?

I'd try something like:

"Boy!" the man in seat 12 hollered, making Butch jump. "Newspaper and coffee."

His hands trembled as he poured the man some coffee.

(I may end up "borrowing" this thread when you're done, if you don't mind... I have a snippet of dialogue that isn't working out right, myself.)

[scribbler1382]

"Boy!" the man in seat 12 hollered.

Butch flinched, splashing coffee onto a briefcase at his feet. Thankfully, he seemed to be the only one who noticed.

"Newspaper and coffee," the man demanded.

Butch scurried up the rocking aisle and served the coffee and newspaper as ordered, his hands shaking and his heart racing to beat the locomotive as he watched what he was doing, stealing glances at the briefcase he'd ruined.

[underthecity]

Thanks everyone for the awesome suggestions. I'm not sure which yet I will be able to use, although I am very limited on word length so I have to keep excessive descriptions to a minimum as much as I appreciate the suggestions from emeraldcite and scribbler.

However, I love all of them! Thanks!

allen

[L.Jones]

Food for thought - editing w/o rewriting

I think you have good advice in here but some of the examples are really too busy. Look, it's 1895 on a train - I see gritty, dark, cold, a harsh time to be a kid, you have to convey time and setting which don't get fusy with it.

Short direct sentences convery tension and energy.
As his hands trembled is not as effective as His hands trembled. or even He shook. (I assumed this response was part of the bigger story, not just a random reaction)

Use setting to convery the boy's anxiety, the sound of the train, the movement. Walking against the forward movement of a train in itself creates visual and physical tension, for example.

every word must be there for a reason

annie
Luanne Jones
Heathen Girls (available now)

[alleycat]

Just one more suggestion:

Butch noticed the well-dressed man in seat 12 glaring up at him.

“Boy!” the man yelled. “Newspaper and coffee.”

Butch’s legs were shaking as he went to pour the man his coffee. He felt his heart racing. He had to hold the pot with both hands to keep it steady.

[underthecity]

A quote from the movie Amadeus:

"I love them all; I wish I had three heads!"

allen

[scribbler1382]

every word must be there for a reason


You're right, but at the same time you have to make sure you don't hack and slash so much you remove the flavor from your work. True, it can be a bit of a tightrope walk, but without the seasoning of your personal style, your work will come across bland and uninteresting. IMO, anyways.

[NeuroFizz]

Hi, Allen

If you want to really tie together the startle and the subsequent nervousness, you should go back a little and have Butch thinking of something he'd done that he shouldn't have done, so he is mentally agonizing about being caught. Now, if you establish that his mind is elsewhere, and on edge, the shout of the man will register a better startle, both for Butch and for the reader. And it doesn't have to be past thoughts that set up the startle. He could be admiring the ankles (and more) of a woman passenger whose dress is lifted a little too high, and when the man shouts, the woman catches poor Butch oogling. Busted, he would react in panic that the man also caught him oogling, and he could actually experience a little relief when the man demands coffee (both because the man didn't bust him, and because he gets to do something to remove him from the woman's scowl)--but his hands would still be shaking. Again in this case, Butch's mind would be elsewhere for the shout (a better startle), and his nervousness would have a better grounding. This way, you're making a little story out of the scene, and offering an additional nugget of characterization for Butch (e.g. did he do something bad and feel sad about it, or does he feel guilty for looking where he shouldn't be looking?). This would also take the focus off the dialogue, which now would be just fine as two short exclamations.

This all assumes this part of your scene carries some importance beyond the simple act of pouring some coffee for the man

Another note - the expression "Boy" can have several meanings, including an expression of joy (as in, "Boy, was that a great meal"). I'd have the man shout, "Hey, boy." It better directs the exclamation at the young man, and "hey" makes it a little more abrupt.

[L.Jones]

You're right, but at the same time you have to make sure you don't hack and slash so much you remove the flavor from your work. True, it can be a bit of a tightrope walk, but without the seasoning of your personal style, your work will come across bland and uninteresting. IMO, anyways.

Never suggested any such thing. Want to make that very clear, Nothing in what I said hinted at taking away from style or voice (hot buttons for me, obviously) and in fact by giving thoughts and not trying to actually rewrite it gave the author the real option of rethinking and rewriting with nothing but original voice.

Never said hack or slash. Said consider every word and make them each count. I stand by that advice but in the end everyone does what the do.

annie
Luanne Jones
Heathen Girls (available now)

[James D. Macdonald]

“Boy! Newspaper and coffee!”

Butch poured the coffee for the man in seat 12. The way his hands were shaking it was a wonder he got it in the cup.

[scribbler1382]

“Boy! Newspaper and coffee!”

Butch poured the coffee for the man in seat 12. The way his hands were shaking it was a wonder he got it in the cup.




And there you go. Damn, he's good.

[underthecity]

Again, thanks for the wonderful suggestions, I appreciate all of them.

A few comments: scribbler, although I have been hacking and slashing quite a bit, it's not random. Flavor is still in the rewrites. I do have to choose words carefully--say as much as I can in as few words as possible.

Nurofizz, in lines preceding this dialog exchange I have already set up his tension--he's beginning to struggle with a crisis, and is holding a secret from the other passengers on the train.

L. Jones, I didn't see you implying to hack and slash and lose voice. I am indeed making every word count. I'm also working on the train setting.

It's a work in progress, but coming along nicely.

And Uncle Jim, thank you for that. Works nicely too!

Allen

[NeuroFizz]

Once again, UJ has demonstrated the economy and logic of a seasoned writer. His suggestion should stand. But, with this passage in isolation, we are at a bit of disadvantage. Presumably something set up this passage, or it wouldn't be important enough to include in the scene. And that preceding something is where you can (and probably have) set up the startling nature of the man's command. I'll reiterate that the best way to show a startle is to have Butch's mind on something when the man gives his yell, so I'd be interested in seeing the set-up for this part of the scene.

Second point - there has been at least one go-round about the use of exclamation points, and they work well in UJ's suggestion. My worry is that some inexperienced writers may get nicked by editors or readers if too many exclamation points are used (Allen, I know you're a published writer, so you're probably okay on this point). If one tends to overuse exclamation point, as many beginning writers do, and the desire is to minimize them, modifying UJ's dialogue line to, "Hey, boy. Newspaper and coffee." can serve as a substitute as long as it has a good startle set-up, and of course the hand-shaking nervousness so perfectly shown by UJ. If there are no reservations about the use of exclamation points, then my suggestion is trumped.

[underthecity]

Here's the whole passage, with Uncle Jim's suggestion contained inside.

And realize: this is a work in progress. It is not perfect yet.


“Newspaper, Mr. Schwartz?” yawned Butch the next morning.

“Yes, bubbellah.” He paid Butch a penny. “What’s the news of the bank robber, eh?”

“Police are still looking.” He pointed to the headline:

BANK ROBBER STILL AT LARGE. Authorities believe he may be headed east.

Butch knew the truth but was afraid to say.

“You’re shlumping this morning and so very quiet,” said Mr. Schwartz.

“I didn’t sleep well,” he said, rubbing his eyes.

Loud bumps and crashes inside the baggage car had awakened Butch the night before. He was afraid someone was in there with him, maybe trying to steal his money. Worse yet, did someone know he knew there was a bank robber on board? Could Butch be guilty somehow? He didn’t hear any more noise, but it had taken a long time to fall back asleep.

“Boy! Newspaper and coffee.”

Butch poured the coffee for the man in seat 12. The way his hands were shaking it was a wonder he got any in the cup.

“I heard the bank robber might be on a train,” said the man.

Butch nearly dumped the coffee into the man’s lap. “Yes sir,” stammered Butch, “that’s what the papers say. Other people might have been helping him, too.” The man paid him, looking at him strangely.



That's all for that part.

allen

[scribbler1382]

I like it, Allen.

And just so everyone knows, I wasn't trying to say anyone posting here does "hack and slash", I was just making a point. I always try and make it very clear that what I say in here is just my opinion and should be taken as such. I would never accuse anyone of anything, since all the forum provides is a slit into someone's skills. I'm a lot of things, but I don't think presumptious is one of them. IMO, of course. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Drop "yawned" and "stammered." Use "said" unless there's a compelling reason to use some other word.

[underthecity]

Uncle Jim,

Dumped, but he's still tired and nervous. How can I show that without a yawn and a stammer?

Thanks,

allen

[PattiTheWicked]

"“I didn’t sleep well,” he said, rubbing his eyes and trying not to yawn."

I do like this a lot, Allen. Can't wait to see more of it.

[maestrowork]

I think sometimes it's okay to do the stammering, etc. for economy purposes. Also, this is a children's book so the "show vs. tell" is not as important -- word count is more important.

[reph]

Allen, Butch can stifle a yawn as he speaks. That would be consistent with the tension in this scene, which comes from his need to control himself and look normal (hide his secret from the passengers). Yawning at a customer would be bad manners and possibly get him in trouble. I agree that a character can't yawn words.

Since your dialogue includes Yiddish words, are you using a source for consistent spellings? Leo Rosten's Joys of Yiddish has only bubeleh and bobeleh.

[underthecity]

Reph,

I did consider your suggestion about the yawn. Maybe, at "Newspaper, Mr. Schwartz?" asked Butch. He stifled a yawn.

Also, I've been consulting multiple sources for Yiddish terms (Mr. Schwartz has three scenes in the story, and each time he mixes Yiddish in his speech). I've found different spellings for the same terms in different sources, so in this instance I used the "bubbellah" spelling. I honestly don't know which spelling is right. How does one find out?

allen

[scribbler1382]

I honestly don't know which spelling is right. How does one find out?


Ask a Rabbi?

[reph]

I honestly don't know which spelling is right. How does one find out?
All the spellings are transliterations of another language, so there's no absolute standard. Remember when the rules for Chinese to English changed and suddenly the names of Chinese cities and politicians had lots of Xs?

A Yiddish dictionary would be the most authoritative source. But if Yiddish dictionaries disagree...

[crosseyed reader]

A Yiddish dictionary would be the most authoritative source. But if Yiddish dictionaries disagree...
Oy, they do. They do. An author and I went 'round and 'round about the proper spelling of a very common word. I kept changing the spelling, and the author kept inisisting I was wrong. We consulted two dictionaries. Neither of them agreed. We went with the popular spelling with the author grumbling the entire way.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oy, they do. They do. An author and I went 'round and 'round about the proper spelling of a very common word. I kept changing the spelling, and the author kept inisisting I was wrong. We consulted two dictionaries. Neither of them agreed. We went with the popular spelling with the author grumbling the entire way.


If the dictionaries disagree, go with the author's spelling. For that matter, if the dictionaries all agree and the author wants a different spelling, go with the author's preference. This sort of thing is where copyeditor horror stories come from. There's one copyeditor who ... if she ever touches one of my manuscripts again, that publisher will never see another book from me.

The rule is: the author is right. The copyeditor should keep it consistent, but otherwise stay out of the way.

[crosseyed reader]

If the dictionaries disagree, go with the author's spelling. For that matter, if the dictionaries all agree and the author wants a different spelling, go with the author's preference. This sort of thing is where copyeditor horror stories come from. There's one copyeditor who ... if she ever touches one of my manuscripts again, that publisher will never see another book from me.

The rule is: the author is right. The copyeditor should keep it consistent, but otherwise stay out of the way.
Weeelll, I'll agree with that sentiment to a point. If people are used to seeing a word spelled a certain way, to do otherwise is to invite a raised eyebrow or three.The spelling the author insisted on keeping was so obscure that it made it look like the words were misspelled. In those cases, it didn't matter if the author was going to hold his breath and turn blue. We changed it for the sake of clarity.

[James D. Macdonald]

In those cases, it didn't matter if the author was going to hold his breath and turn blue. We changed it for the sake of clarity.

That author would be perfectly justified in never working with you again.

[reph]

It would be nice if the board rule, "Respect your fellow writers," covered editors as well.

[Sharon Mock]

To make good on my threat to hijack the thread (and distract Uncle Jim from thoughts of copyediting nightmares):

Here's my own problematic snippet of dialogue. Situation: main character is late for work. Boss is concerned but not angry, and has other things on his mind. I wouldn't worry at this too much except that it's in chapter 1, and more or less the first "ordinary" dialogue the reader encounters.

What am I not seeing here?

"I'm fine," she said, her hand going to cover her rolled-up sleeve. "Just got caught in the middle of some mess with a vagabond or something. Wasn't looking where I was going, I guess. Had to give a statement to the police."

"Right. The police were through here earlier, looking for a fugitive. I thought that might have been what slowed you down." The head librarian shook his head. "What a day."

[reph]

What am I not seeing here?

I don't know. You didn't say why you're unhappy with it. The first paragraph looks fine to me.

Second paragraph:

"Right. The police were through here* earlier, looking for a fugitive. I thought that might have been what slowed you down." The head librarian** shook his head.*** "What a day."****

*"Came through here" would be a tad more vivid.

**Calling him by his name might sound more natural. Does she think of him as "the head librarian" or as "Mike" or as "Mr. Schmidt"?

***head (librarian)...head.

****What time is it? "What a day" is usually heard late in the day.

[Jamesaritchie]

I guess I fall somehwre in the middle where spelling is concerned. Sometimes the writer is clearly wrong, and the publisher has just as much on the line as the writer when a book is released with a spelling error.

Where copyeditors are concerned, my rule is to change things if they need changed, but first tell me why, and show me that I'm wrong. In other words, don't make the change without first talking to me about it.

Just show me a spelling different from my own in a well-known dictionary, and you can have your way. Who the heck cares?

[Sharon Mock]

I didn't want to say what I thought was wrong because I didn't want to color the responses. Also, because I suspected I was overthinking things (PEBPAC -- Problem Exists Between Paper And Chair), which is probably true. (I kept quiet for a few days to see if anybody else had anything to say. The silence tells me as much as any post could.)

I had the sense that the second paragraph was too "on the nose" -- too much of a micro-infodump, not like a real exchange. But that's probably just be an artifact of the revision process.

I'm hesitant to name the head librarian because there's enough names floating around in the opening chapters already. I have a tendency not to name characters who are mostly known by their profession or role. I'm not sure if this is a wise choice, a bad habit, or some combination of the two.

The head librarian shaking his head... oh, dear. That gets changed.

"What a day" -- it's about nine AM. :D

The quote in context:

"Bloody hell, I told you it's moving too fast," the archivist said. Linadel recognized the argument. Whatever had them so upset, it was just politics, nothing to do with her. "And they want these records that--"

"That we don't have," the head librarian said calmly. "Yes."

"So what are we going to do, invent them?"

"We don't have it. We shouldn't have it. I see no point in--"

No point putting it off any longer. Linadel knocked on the door.

The door opened almost at once, and the head librarian looked at her with relief. "Oh, good, you're here. Are you all right?"

"I'm fine," she said, her hand going to cover her rolled-up sleeve. "Just got caught in the middle of some mess with a vagabond or something. Wasn't looking where I was going, I guess. Had to give a statement to the police."

"Right. The police camethrough here earlier, looking for a fugitive. I thought that might have been what slowed you down." The head librarian sighed. "What a day."

"Look, I know I'm not exactly presentable, if you want me to go home and change--but I was almost here, I figured I ought to at least let you know what happened."

"Presentable? No, you're fine--" She didn't think he'd even noticed anything until she'd mentioned it. "Why? What happened?"

"Nothing really. Somebody just grabbed my arm. Let's just say you don't want me to roll my sleeves down."

"Oh, maybe we have something here--or isn't there a store that sells clothing down the street? I can take care of it. We really can't spare you today."

"Is that what all the shouting was about?"

The head librarian nodded. "Don't worry, it's just politics, we just need to get a few things in order, that's all."

"What do you need me to do?"

He chuckled. "We haven't gotten that far yet. If you want to get a change of clothing--I can give you some cash for it, don't worry--we might have a plan of attack by the time you get back--"

"By the way," the archivist said. "Before you go. Somebody was asking for you in the reading room. Said she was a friend of yours."