The New Never-Ending PublishAmerica Thread (NEPAT) [Archive]

SC Harrison

02-03-2006, 09:13 PM

I am a PA author who submitted a Mystery/Crime novel manuscript to PA back in the Spring of 2004. While waiting for my book to come out, I spent quite a bit of time on the PublishAmerica message board, associating with others like myself and excitedly preparing for the release of my novel Undeserved Trust.

Upon its release in May 2005, I began to print and distribute bookmarks, I contacted several bookstores to try to set up booksignings, and I vigorously pursued some local newspapers to see if I could get my book reviewed.

To date, I have not been able to convince any book stores to stock my book. I have had several state that they would allow me to place the books on consignment, but that would entail me purchasing the books myself, which I refuse to do.

It took me four months to finally get a newspaper to mention my book. Part of the reason for this was PA's reluctance to even send them a press release, which is something they claim to do for all authors. The book review editor required a notification from the publisher, and this took some six weeks, and a few e-mails from me to PA before he finally got something. I called him once a week to check, and got more and more depressed and angry as the weeks went by with no word from my "publisher".

I have also had friends and family try to order my book from bookstores, only to be told it was "not available". This is also very humiliating, and hard to explain to people. The fact that they have recently reduced the discount they give to bookstores (5% as opposed to their previous 40%), ensures that most bookstores will no longer touch the transaction, or they will lose money every time.

I have come to the conclusion that PA is not interested in pursuing or even facilitating retail sales. Their main objective is to sell books to the authors themselves, which is why they accept virtually any manuscript that comes their way. They even offer a formatting option with no editing whatsoever, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt they are targeting the author instead of the wider reading public.

They are a vanity press, plain and simple, but they claim to be a traditional publisher. They do this because they want their authors to believe their work is at a level that can compete with all other books. I believe they do this so the authors will feel confident enough in their book to spend hundreds (if not thousands) buying books and promoting them. By the time an author realizes they have wasted time and money, two more aspiring authors have taken their place, to begin the cycle over again.

Nexusman

02-03-2006, 09:20 PM

my novel Undeserved Trust.

Forgive me for using your title in this way, SC, but undeserved trust is also what many PA authors inadvertently give PA.

-Nick

MadScientistMatt

02-03-2006, 09:25 PM

What's the story on the Wonder Woman cover? I seem to have missed that one.

keltora

02-03-2006, 09:26 PM

Also in the last year:

Atlanta Nights (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22atlanta+nights%22+%22travis+tea%22&btnG=Google+Search)

The "returnability" program (with the new, improved 5% discount!)

Willem's book

Other appearances in the mainstream media -- all of them unfavorable

==================

Discussions on other boards:

Writer's Net (http://www.writers.net/forum/search.php?f=1&search=publishamerica&match=1&date=180&fldsubject=1&fldbody=1)

Speculations.com (http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/?z=102187)

Mindsight (http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?file=/3831/3831.html&lm=1138905566)

And just how is ATLANTA NIGHTS (That wonderful sting novel that proved that PA was nothing but a bunch of crooks) doing these days?

Richard

02-03-2006, 09:31 PM

What's the story on the Wonder Woman cover? I seem to have missed that one.

It's here: http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?search=yes

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-03-2006, 09:33 PM

Hello all. Howdy do, and OMG I can't believe I'm on the first page of this thread!!! Take a picture for posterity!

I am not a PA author myself--I was lucky in having Real Published Authors as mentors in high school, and they introduced me to how the industry works. I do know someone whose friend published with PA, and when she told me, I knew enough to wince inwardly but not enough to make the wince worth showing on my face. Since then I have learned much, much more, and am determined never to let a mention of PA go by without treating it as an opportunity to tell the truth about them.

Also, when mentioning That Publisher, it is best to link them thusly:

Publish America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25187-2005Jan20)

PublishAmerica (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25187-2005Jan20)

This helps keep the Washington Post article right in second place when one searches Google for That Publisher.

James D. Macdonald

02-03-2006, 09:42 PM

And just how is ATLANTA NIGHTS (That wonderful sting novel that proved that PA was nothing but a bunch of crooks) doing these days?

586 sold in 2005, 23 so far in 2006.

Alas that the Indepence Books program is apparently no more! AN would have been a shoo-in for that coveted status.

(For those who came in late, the Independence Books program was a special deal by PublishAmerica a few years ago. If a book sold 500 copies, it would be made returnable! A half-dozen (out of thousands of titles) qualified. Then ... they stopped doing that.)

Valentine's Day is coming up. Give that special someone a copy of Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550)!

Lady of Prose

02-03-2006, 09:59 PM

I'm an ex-PA author who was printed by PublishAmerica. I spent more than I care to admit on books and promotion. I'm currently seeking to get my rights back, but have not been successful as of yet. I'm a big spender and they are probably hoping I'll be gullible enough to do it again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN PA!

To all new defectors from PA--welcome. You are in the right place, and are among some good people and wonderful authors giving of their time to help new and experienced authors improve their writing abilities and become better/established in the real publishing world.

Nexusman

02-03-2006, 10:02 PM

(For those who came in late, the Independence Books program was a special deal by PublishAmerica a few years ago. If a book sold 500 copies, it would be made returnable! A half-dozen (out of thousands of titles) qualified. Then ... they stopped doing that.)

That seems counterintuitive. If a book had managed to sell 500 copies, it would logically follow that there wouldn't be any reason to make them returnable. It would make better sense to actually offer to promote the book as an incentive. However, since the authors are the ones buying the books here...

I'll have to pass on Atlanta Nights. I lost brain cells reading the PDF.

-Nick

MMo

02-03-2006, 10:18 PM

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway? I mean, what if you don't mind marketing your own work and buying and reselling your own books? I have three booksignings coming up, starting tomorrow, and two of them are at Chapters.I felt no stigma at all when approaching them. They were as welcoming of me as if I were published by a mainstream publisher. And I believe that more people are buying online at places like Amazon.com. And Publish America is a member of the Better Business Bureau. I negotiated my own contract with P A. I did sign on with N Y Literary recently though and am concerned about all the negative posts. They say that they do not negotiate deals with print on demand publishers. I have nothing against print on demand publishers, but you don't need an agent to negotiate for you.And with regards to agents such as New York Literary Agency charging fees, I don't see that it is a sin to charge fees. What is a sin though, is to misrepresent yourself. But on the subject of scams, supposing that NY Literary was a scam, wouldn't it take more work for them to perpetuate the fraud, eg change names frequently, than it would just to be up front about the critiques? I was always prepared to pay for editing, and planned to pay a professional editor before I submitted to a publisher. I know that traditionally agents do not charge fees until they publish you, but on the other hand, it is difficult to find one to represent you unless you've been published. I am willing to pay a one time editing fee, but would not be willing to keep shelling out. So, I would have respect for a literary agency who just came right out and said they charged for critiques, and that they offered editing services. Of course, I would expect a good edit in return. But, whoever wrote the blurb on N Y Literary website has obvious writing talent and if that person would use that talent to edit my work, I would be willing to pay for it. I think that perpetuating a scam must much harder work than running a legitimate business. So why would Robert Fletcher etc. spend so much time and energy in running a scam if that were the case, when all he has to do is offer editiorial services? I don't know, maybe I am a hopeless optimist, but what I really want to say is, Robert Fletcher, you have a gift. Show me how to improve my manuscript and I will pay for the service. Just be up front with me.
Janet

Preserving this before it gets edited again or deleted.

Is this person for real? Surely it must be royalty time at PA.

(wandering off, singing a variation on "The Teddy Bears' Picnic")

Oh, my. That came across as particularly harsh if the poster _is_ for real. Please familiarize yourself with the business of publishing. Try some critique groups, some face-to-face writers' organizations, perhaps a class or two if you can find one nearby. Read the many other discussions on this board. Please.

The agent's job is not to teach you your craft; it is to sell the product of that craft. The agent's income shouldn't come from critiquing, or from referring you to editors; it should come from selling your manuscript to a publisher who will pay money for it, in advances and in royalties. A publisher's job is not to make a product available to an author so the author can do _all_ the work of promoting and selling the book; the publisher's job is to make the book available to the public in such a way that all concerned with the sale make money: the writer, the publisher, the bookstore.

Mo

Lady of Prose

02-03-2006, 10:23 PM

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway?
Janet

PA claims to be a "traditional" publisher. They deny being POD/Vanity. They overcharge for their books and give ridiculous short discounts to book stores. Their business model is set up so that YOU the author are scammed into buying your own books.

With a real "traditonal" publisher--that is not the case. I don't mean to be unkind, but I would like to have a report from you on how well you have done, in say, about six months from now.

Good luck, I wish you the very best.

AnnaWhite

02-03-2006, 10:26 PM

Wow!

A New Never-Ending PubliScamErica Thread (I know, my spelling resonates across the fruited plane), and already 14 posts!

For any forum lurkers, you may like to read a few true stories written by people who have had their work published by PubliScamErica: True Stories about PublishAmerica (http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm).

Sheryl Nantus

02-03-2006, 10:28 PM

Dear Janet B.:

I see your book was published in October of 2005. Pray, tell us approximately how much you've spent on publicity, promotion and purchasing your own books and how much you expect your royalty check to be - if/when it arrives in the next month or so.

And how do people react to paying $20 for a 164 page book?

LloydBrown

02-03-2006, 10:28 PM

Hi, Janet.

You seem to have a lot of questions, so I hope you'll forgive the line-by-line style treatment.

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway?

If you want to sell a certain format of low-budget books in low numbers, nothing at all. If you want to sell books to a large number of readers, lots, starting with cost and quality.

I mean, what if you don't mind marketing your own work and buying and reselling your own books? I Then why choose Publish America, which is so much more expensive than Lulu.com or several other options?

They were as welcoming of me as if I were published by a mainstream publisher. So you do recognize that you're not. Good.

And I believe that more people are buying online at places like Amazon.com. People do buy online, but the vast majority of books sell at bookstores.

And Publish America is a member of the Better Business Bureau. Which means they pay a fee. Yay. It has no relationship to their relationships with their writers because that's considered a business-to-business transaction and disagreements between businesses mean nothing to the BBB.

And with regards to agents such as New York Literary Agency charging fees, I don't see that it is a sin to charge fees.
The Association of Authors' Representatives finds it unethical. Want to send me money, too? I've sold more books than Robert Fletcher has. Unlike Fletcher, I readily admit that I'm not a literary agent.

wouldn't it take more work for them to perpetuate the fraud, eg change names frequently, I think Fletcher owns a hosting service, which means the cost to him to create new websites is an afternoon's work and a couple of bucks a month. He doesn't have those fictitious names registered, and they're not companies. They're just websites.

But, whoever wrote the blurb on N Y Literary website has obvious writing talent and if that person would use that talent to edit my work, I would be willing to pay for it. You think that's talent? I think it's weak. The very first sentence on the page is nonparallel.

Not to mention all of the lies, like the one about their corporate offices being in New York, attending the major book trade shows, not charging fees, and those ridiculous claims under their "Successes" header.

CaoPaux

02-03-2006, 10:41 PM

Quoth janetbellinger:

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway?

Nothing’s wrong with POD per se, but PA tries to convince its authors that it’s not a POD. That’s the problem with PA.

I mean, what if you don't mind marketing your own work and buying and reselling your own books?

More power to you. But you would get a better product and service through the likes of Lulu, etc.

I have three booksignings coming up, starting tomorrow, and two of them are at Chapters.I felt no stigma at all when approaching them. They were as welcoming of me as if I were published by a mainstream publisher.

Good for you. Did you happen to compare your book’s price to comparable work from a mainstream publisher? Prospective buyers will.

And I believe that more people are buying online at places like Amazon.com.

About 8% of book sales are online. But the vast majority of those are by folks looking to buy that particular book. That is, folks don’t browse online for books to buy like they do in bookstores.

And Publish America is a member of the Better Business Bureau.

Meaningless. Companies pay to be listed with the BBB, and only need to acknowledge a complaint for the BBB to consider it “resolved”. Also, PA has changed its listed name at least once to clear the negative record that was beginning to build against it.

I negotiated my own contract with P A.

Ouch.

I did sign on with N Y Literary recently though and am concerned about all the negative posts.

You should be. They are a scam.

They say that they do not negotiate deals with print on demand publishers.

Funny, since they’ve “sold” dozens of people to PA.

I have nothing against print on demand publishers, but you don't need an agent to negotiate for you.

Correct.

And with regards to agents such as New York Literary Agency charging fees, I don't see that it is a sin to charge fees.

The problem is that they are profiting from the fees you pay them, not from selling your book.

What is a sin though, is to misrepresent yourself.

Yes. And both PA and NYLA do.

But on the subject of scams, supposing that NY Literary was a scam, wouldn't it take more work for them to perpetuate the fraud, eg change names frequently, than it would just to be up front about the critiques?

Not at all. Critiquing requires knowledge and skill; collecting fees does not.

I was always prepared to pay for editing, and planned to pay a professional editor before I submitted to a publisher.

Not a good idea. Read the other topics on this board for why.

I know that traditionally agents do not charge fees until they publish you, but on the other hand, it is difficult to find one to represent you unless you've been published.

No, it’s only difficult if you do not have a book they can sell.

I am willing to pay a one time editing fee, but would not be willing to keep shelling out.

You’ve got that going for you, at least.

So, I would have respect for a literary agency who just came right out and said they charged for critiques, and that they offered editing services.

Why? Such services are a blatant conflict of interest with selling your book to a publisher. That is, they needn’t spend time and effort contacting publishers on your behalf when they can just pass you back and forth for editing/critique/illustration fees.

Of course, I would expect a good edit in return.

Which they do not give. See NYLA topic for examples.

But, whoever wrote the blurb on N Y Literary website has obvious writing talent and if that person would use that talent to edit my work, I would be willing to pay for it.

First, it’s not logical to presume the person writing their website content would be their editor. Second, the site is not well-written.

I think that perpetuating a scam must much harder work than running a legitimate business. So why would Robert Fletcher etc. spend so much time and energy in running a scam if that were the case, when all he has to do is offer editiorial services?

You’ve answered your own question. The scam is the editorial "services".

I don't know, maybe I am a hopeless optimist, but what I really want to say is, Robert Fletcher, you have a gift. Show me how to improve my manuscript and I will pay for the service. Just be up front with me.
Janet

Robert Fletcher has a gift for conning people into believing in he can help them get published. He can’t, he won’t, and you would do better to avoid him.

Tilly

02-03-2006, 10:58 PM

Welcome Ilovepensandpaper:welcome:

I thought PA was a real publisher and they it would have my books in the major bookstores. I thought it would atleast do a little promoting beyond that tacky press release/order form.

I'm so sorry you've had this experience. PA set out to make you believe those things.

I am incensed, insulted, irritated, embarrassed, ashamed - you name it. I worked hard on my poetry and wanted it to be published and some con-artist took advantage of that!

It's shameful to deceive people, to insult those who ask legitimate questions and to generally behave the way PA does. You have no reason to feel ashamed. Those who own PA should be very ashamed.

I have friends who wanted free copies, and I can't give them copies. Family will probably want some too. People saw my self-made release in the paper - people who knew me from school and all. What am I supposed to say?
While I do want my friends to have a copy of my work, I don't want PA getting any money.

If this happened to a friend of mine, I wouldn't think any the less of them. I doubt your family and friends would either, and you might find they can offer you a lot of support right now. I can understand why you feel embarrassed, PA have put you in a horrible position. I also know that just saying you shouldn't be embarassed doesn't mean you can just switch off an emotion. But you've done nothing wrong.

I don't know what to do with my website. Stuff is just overwhelming, and simple stuff is overwhelming when you have a nervous disorder. I feel like the anger is simmering, waiting for a time to explode out.
This situation sucks royally, and for PA: Karma is a you-know-what.

I hope this gets better for you soon. There are legitimate paying markets for poetry, and a great poetry writing board on this forum.

Roger J Carlson

02-03-2006, 10:59 PM

I think Fletcher owns a hosting service, which means the cost to him to create new websites is an afternoon's work and a couple of bucks a month. He doesn't have those fictitious names registered, and they're not companies. They're just websites. Even if you don't own a hosting service, you can buy webspace at www.webhost4life.com (http://www.webhost4life.com/) for $4.95 a month. That plus a domain name for $16 at www.buydomains.com (http://www.buydomains.com/). Copy your website to the new space, change a few words on the page -- that's all you need. Hardly any work at all.

Christine N.

02-03-2006, 11:08 PM

They also printed that mostly plagerized Cancer book.

Jean Marie

02-03-2006, 11:13 PM

Welcome Ilovepensandpaper:welcome:

I'd like to tell you to take heart. As an ex-PA'er, I know it's difficult at best, but hang in there. There are quite a few of us here. And many more who aren't but understand.

Please, above all, do not quit writing and never hang your head in shame. If you do either of these, PA wins. Don't allow that to happen. Instead, continue to post here and allow us to help you through it.

Tilly

02-03-2006, 11:16 PM

Hi Janet,

PA and NYLA have a lot in common. Both prey on aspiring new writers. Neither are what they claim to be.

A literary agency sells books to publishers, and derives its income from this. NYLA derives its money from fees and doesn't sell books to publishers.

A commercial publisher buys the work of writers and sells books to the general public. PA claims to be a publisher. In fact it claims to be a 'traditional' publisher and not a POD. It's actually an expensive printer that sells books to authors. Its business model isn't designed to sell to the public, but that's what it wants its authors to think.

If you want a professional writing career, this board is a wonderful resource packed full of helpful information. Neither of the two companies you're involved in will help if your goal is to be a professional writer. Your PA book is not a professional writing credit. You're still a writer, and finishing a book is in itself an achievement to be proud of, but if you do submit to publishers and agents, it will make a poor impression if you mention your PA book.

James D. Macdonald

02-03-2006, 11:16 PM

First, welcome, Janet.

Please take some time and look around. This is only one thread among many on the Bewares Board, and the Bewares Board is only one board among many at the Water Cooler. We have lots of information on writing here.

Next, the New York Literary Agency, fascinating as it is, is off-topic here.

You're probably looking for these threads:

(http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729&page=1&pp=25)The New York Literary Agency (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729)
The Literary Agency Group (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13517)

...and their various off-shoots. Please follow the links you'll find in those threads. It's educational.

Now to your questions:

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway?

The answer is: Nothing. Not a darned thing. POD is a small but interesting part of the entire publishing picture. I use it myself, for appropriate projects. (For example, the thing that's currently in my sig line: http://www.lulu.com/content/219003 which is a chapbook I put together for a class I'll be teaching later this month. It's so the students can have some of my stories. Cost to me: Zero. Time expended: About fifteen minutes. It's just a fancy Xerox copy.)

POD is both a business model and a technology. As a technology it's used by many, many publishers for assorted purposes -- where you need a short run with minimal set-up costs.

As a business model, however, POD (and, before you ask, there's no difference at all between "print on demand" and "publish on demand") is incompatible with bookstore shelving. That's because POD only prints books after an order is received, while normal trade publication prints before orders are received.

I've put together a page of definitions that might help here: http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/publishing.htm

My problems with PublishAmerica are these:

They deny being a POD publisher, which they clearly are. They say:

FACT #5: PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them.
This is untrue. In addition, since their business model (selling books to their own authors for resale by those authors) is the vanity press business model, they have two lies in that sentence alone.

Second, PublishAmerica strongly implies that their books can/will be shelved in bookstores "from sea to shining sea," when they know that bookstore shelving for their books in general is uncommon, and not a single one of their titles has ever achieved national distribution.

PublishAmerica says:

For a book to be stocked by a bookstore, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to order it. Typically, it's not the store manager who makes such decisions, unless he runs an independent store. Larger chains such as Waldenbooks, Barnes & Noble, and Borders have "buyers" who select which titles are to be stocked. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move.

They know, or should know, however, that this is not how bookstore shelving works in the major chains, and they must be aware that not a single one of their authors has ever been able to accomplish it. With over 17,000 authors (as they claim), surely by now one of them would have managed to get national shelving if it could be done.

It's possible to use PublishAmerica just as a printer, to fill your personal need for copies of your book, but in those cases, first, it's a very expensive printer, and second, you'll have given up your rights for seven years.

I don't have a problem with Print on Demand. Nor do I have a problem with vanity publication. What I do have a problem with is false and misleading advertising.

I will leave to others the question of whether PublishAmerica honestly pays the royalties that they owe, or if they honestly account for sales.

Sheryl Nantus

02-04-2006, 12:06 AM

well, she does have a book out since October of 2005 - the big revelation will probably come in about six weeks or less when she gets that "fat" royalty check and does the math.

I hope she does return.

akaa1a

02-04-2006, 12:09 AM

Yep...it's royalty time. Lightbulbs are sparking everywhere!

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10766

Do I have your attention?
I was recently reffered to the New York Barnes & Noble branch and spoke to someone concerning The Chaos Cycle's nonreturnable status. They informed me that they only use Lightningsource, and that I need to contact PA's support team and have them give Lightningsource the necessary info. I was told by PA that the book is only returnable through Ingrams, but according to the person at Barnes & Noble, they won't deal with Ingrams. Oh yeah, Lightning ource only offers a five percent discount. Does this sound familiar? If so, does anyone know of what solution was suggested. Is this the same for all Barnes & Noble stores?

Thanks,

*********************

What the heck is that all about? That's crazy and confusing - I don't know what to tell you, except to possibly ask PA to explain this situation to you. They must have come across this before...

*************************

I was told by PA that the books are only returnable if ordered through Ingrams.

*********************

Exactly - and since when do bookstores order directly from a printer? But then, what do I know?

Tirjasdyn

02-04-2006, 12:18 AM

Hrm...

Did you guys see this?
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10648

I like to keep on scams, I don't want any of my writing friends getting swindled. However this doesn't sound right...does PA require you to register copyright yourself?

Tilly

02-04-2006, 12:20 AM

Aconite

02-04-2006, 12:22 AM

POZKIN (http://www.freewebs.com/pozkin/legalwatch.htm) has information on Phil Dolan's arbitration win against PA in December, as well as what little can be released about a second author who also won against PA a few days ago.

mdin

02-04-2006, 12:58 AM

Here (http://www.publishamerica.com/greetingcardpro/createcard1.asp?PostCardID=12765) is the Wonder Woman cover.

Tirjasdyn

02-04-2006, 01:26 AM

Yes, PA does require you to register your own copyright. Getting printed with PA costs you $29 (I think, if you take off the one dollar 'advance') even before the high pressure sales tactics to get the authors to buy their own books.

My understanding is that commercial publishers register the copyright, and pay the fee as part of the cost of publishing.

Yes that's how I understand it, but I didn't know PA made the author do that themselves.

I wish English courses included (or required) some publishing business material. It could save a lot of tears and $.

JerseyGirl1962

02-04-2006, 01:42 AM

Here's the pozkin thing Aconite spoke about:

http://www.freewebs.com/pozkin/legalwatch.htm

~Nancy

SC Harrison

02-04-2006, 01:43 AM

I am a Publish America author and just want to know what's wrong with print on demand publishing, anyway? I mean, what if you don't mind marketing your own work and buying and reselling your own books?

Take some time to observe the behavior of many (especially new) authors on the PAMB. They are under the impression that their manuscript was "selected" because of its quality, and that PA is "taking a chance" on them. Why do they believe this? Because of the misleading information on the PA website and the wording of the query acceptance e-mails. This plays upon the vanity of the author, which is where the name of this type of publishing comes from.

While you may have figured out the difference between PA and trade publishers, many others do not. It's these folks that need someone to look out for them, by striving to force PA to stop misleading people.

Sarashay

02-04-2006, 03:18 AM

For those of you new here, please check out my unofficial FAQ (http://sarashay.tripod.com/pafaq.html) (it's also in my signature) which should answer at least some of your questions.

AmandaPA

02-04-2006, 05:38 AM

My first PA book was released in May and I spent $1000 more or less on promotions. I had one book signing where I sold 18 books. I recently signed a new contract with PA and shortly after I signed, I began to smell a rat. The first time around I was treated with respect by everyone I dealt with at PA and they handled my book very well. It was totally different this time. The first person was rude and treated me like an idiot. I began to do some research and discovered that the discount for my book was lowered to 5%. That was it for me. I was sent the link to this site and have been quietly lurking for awhile. I did post once before asking about the contract with PA.

BTW, my first royalty check was for $3.00 even though I know that I sold around 40 books.

I'm pleased to meet everyone and hope I'm welcome to express myself openly here even if I disagree with you at times.

Amanda :)

DaveKuzminski

02-04-2006, 06:02 AM

Welcome, Amanda. I have heard, but do not know who is involved yet, that there is a class action arbitration forming. Apparently, class actions are possible with arbitration and that may be the best way for you to get your books back from PA. Hang onto your documentation for the promotion expenses you undertook expecting PA to do its part. Those are important as you might get awarded some return based on that from PA. You might want to check the Mindsight Series web site for the class action information. I think it's at http://www.mindsightseries.com/ and there are more former PA writers there who will welcome you.

SeanDSchaffer

02-04-2006, 06:13 AM

First, I'd like to welcome Janet, Ilovepensandpaper, and AmandaPA to the AW boards. I hope you all enjoy the site, and be sure to take a look around. This thread is only one part of a good-sized forum that all about writing; I'm sure you'll find some good information not only about publishers here, but also about the Craft.

Second, I am a PA author who, in 2003, submitted a Fantasy/Science Fiction novel to PublishAmerica. I signed their contract with the understanding that PA would be using not only POD technology, but also offset technology, to print my book. I understood them as being a traditional or what is commonly referred to as a commercial publisher, and I was of the understanding that my books would be on bookstore shelves around the country and possibly the world.

According to the Contract, PublishAmerica was to make the volume 'attractive and substantial-looking.' They did not fulfill that promise. I can understand a trade paperback that is 259 pages long, but not with the cover that graced the front of the book. When I saw the book cover for the first time, I laughed out of sheer embarrassment. I had to have it corrected before I would approve it, and even the approved cover was not what I had been hoping for.

The cover, as PA originally published it, was a drawing that I did. I specifically told them I did not want them to use the actual drawing as the cover, but rather to use it as an inspiration for an artist's rendition done in a professional manner. They went ahead and pasted the drawing I did onto the cover, against my explicit wishes not to have it done, put a scroll around it, and called it good.

I will give PA this: they did allow me to make a new cover and submit it to them. This new cover is available at PA's site, but nowhere else that I have looked. All the major online stores still have my old cover advertised.

Also, my paperback, 259-page book, sells retail for $21.95. This price would be good for a trade-paperback of maybe 500 pages, but not roughly half that. A comparable book from a legitimate house would generally sell for a little over fifteen dollars.

I received my first royalty check in March of 2005, and for a six-month period of time (including pre-order time, which started in August of 2004) I received a royalty check of $7.71 for six volumes sold in six months.

I would definitely recommend against going with PublishAmerica if you're searching for a good publisher. They are not worth the time or the trouble.

Sean D. Schaffer
Wyverinia Chronicles
1-4137-2354-3

--I'm on the second page! Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!--

Ken Schneider

02-04-2006, 06:51 AM

PA is not a good choice if you want someone other than the family to read your book.

Think it will go into bookstores.

Think you will get rich.

Think you can quit your day job.

Think PA accepted your book on merit.

They accept anything that comes across the computer in Frederick, until the daily quota is filled. If you get rejected, that is why. Resubmit in the morning, and you'll be in.

And remember lurkers, if you bought your own books, you paid to publish. You were funneled right into the scam.

It's called reverse vanity, you paid on the back end. Remember how you told all of your townsfolk you were published, then couldn't get the book in stores? Then what did you do to save face, right, you bought books to sell from the trunk of your car.

That's what happened to me, 1,574.00 dollars worth of books, most I sold for 5.00 bucks.

Don't buy your own books from PA! You'll lose your hind-end. Pa will make money, and you'll get a check for 2, maybe 3 bucks every six months.

Why to go MoeP. I bet your family is proud of you, or do you lie to them as well.

Try selling books to the reading public, the writer has already read their own work.

You write a book, PA prints it and makes all the money.

Edited for this:

Tisk, tisk, your dear mother works for PA too, Moe? Shame, shame.

Nexusman

02-04-2006, 07:56 AM

Pulled from the PAMB:

Is this first time some one from India has got his book published at PA?
I have co authored it with my friend Rebecca from CA.
I have completed with my I.T Engineering and doing my Master's now in Software Programming.

Its really great to be in such a league of distinguished authors at age of 23.

I wonder if PA will even bother shipping books that far when/if this guy breaks down and has to start buying them. Or, are they already considering adding PublishEastAsia to their rip-off conglomerate?

-Nick

JennaGlatzer

02-04-2006, 08:08 AM

Hi all. I think you're heading in a good direction for the new thread-- let's continue it:

In these first few pages of the new thread, I'd love to see people tell their own stories and summarize why we're doing this. This way, newbies don't have to look too far to get the jist of it.

(I'll edit this post to write in my own reasons later.)

NancyMehl

02-04-2006, 10:11 AM

Hello to all the new people!

I was one of PA's most successful authors. My royalty statements show that I sold over 1,000 books. I also bought and sold another 300 myself. It is interesting to note that Larry Clopper, in a newspaper interview, stated that I actually sold "thousands" of books. So...there could be more sales than were reported to me. Who knows? I do have proof of several sales after my contract was cancelled - and I have never been paid for those books.

Yes, my contract was cancelled by PA. Why? They invoked the infamous paragraph 24, claiming that there was no demand for my book. This was not long after I contacted them about a deal I wanted to put together with Kroger stores in my home state. I think the real reason they cancelled my contract was because I didn't fit their business model. They want authors to buy their own books. They not only make more money - but the authors have to pay upfront. PA doesn't like to wait for its money!

That's my story... I hope it helps someone.

Glad you're here. There are a lot of people who care about you and what you've been through.

Nancy

Ilovepensandpaper

02-04-2006, 11:56 AM

I just wanted to say hello to all who welcomed me here and to everyone here anyway. I am keeping my head up, and I have a story idea in my head based on the PA stuff. Boy, what drama can bring!
A Pharmacist at Walmart wanted to know how to get my book since she didn't have a computer. I didn't have the number on me though. My former co-workers want copies too, but wanted free copies. I had to tell my friend to tell them they had to purchase.
My sister likes the book, and I read some to my parents. I plan to read some at a Black History Month event. I guess there is some good. What is that saying about a cloud having a silver lining? I can't remember how it goes, but it rings true.
I got a call from legal aid but I was gone. Now I have to wait until Monday. Can't wait to see about that.
The mentioned concept about copywrite and collections of poetry versus each individual poem is interesting and something I will look into. I can't remember who brought it up, but thanks because I would not have thought of that. It is great to have more than one person working on a matter.
Well, I have to go for now. Until next time.

aruna

02-04-2006, 12:01 PM

astonwest

02-04-2006, 04:49 PM

Did it count, if the authors bought those books themselves?
The 500 didn't automatically make a book returnable under the IB program. It "qualified" for the program, and PA decided whether or not to allow it in. I imagine there were many out there who probably tried to buy their way in without success...very sad.

Aconite

02-04-2006, 04:55 PM

The mentioned concept about copywrite and collections of poetry versus each individual poem is interesting and something I will look into.
If you're in the U.S, you can contact your local branch of Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts and ask about that. Make sure the lawyer has experience with publishing and intellectual property law specifically. Not just any lawyer will do.

Good luck!

Aconite

02-04-2006, 05:10 PM

If it's still practical to do it, leaving a note that a post has been moved to Overflow (or elsewhere) would help avoid both confusion and accusations of censorship. PA royalties will be coming out in a few weeks, and we'll be getting a new influx of guests who don't understand the local customs.

Lurkers and new members: If you wrote or read a post here that you don't see now, it was moved to the NEPAT Overflow (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15336) for being off topic.

Ol' Fashioned Girl

02-04-2006, 05:17 PM

Jenna's wish is my command. This is the chapter I wrote for 'True Stories about Publish America' (http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm). It's not as long as some stories I've read about them, and it's not as painful as some I've read. But it's definitely true.

------
I'd been through the 'submit/reject' mill fifteen or so years back - after winning every contest I'd ever entered with my two completed novels - and since I didn't really have that fire in the belly one needs to become a 'published' author, I tucked both manuscripts away, until an internet friend told me he'd be absent for a while to finish the 'contractual requirements' to get his book finished and on the street. The conversation went from one thing to another, ending with his graciously offering to introduce me to his 'editor'. Since I believed him to be a good writer from what I'd seen of his work, I contacted his 'editor' and was invited to submit my book to PA.

I didn't rush into the relationship. A couple of weeks passed while I did some research into PA, and found a few negatives - nothing like what you see on the 'net today - then all the cheerleader hooha on the PA Message Board about the complaints coming from 'about 8 disgruntled authors'. I let the invitation drift off my radar screen and actually forgot about it until I received a letter, via snailmail, from PA wanting to know where my submission was, hoping I hadn't decided to withdraw it from consideration.

Even though I was uneasy about the things I'd seen on the 'net, I decided that if worse came to worst, I could always clear my desk of everything unimportant and make PA's misery my new hobby. I had a different reason for wanting to be published, anyway: a friend and I had an agreement. If I'd keep trying to get published, she'd keep trying to get her invention patented and distributed. Unfortunately, she died of lung cancer in the middle of our 'agreement'. If nothing else, I'd end up with one copy of my book for my husband and one to bury with my friend.

Like everyone else who's got a book with PA, I got the letter telling me that my novel was going to be published, 'given the chance it deserves'. I signed the contract - after having a lawyer look it over! - and fulfilled my obligations under it. I went above and beyond on those obligations - like so many other PA authors have done - because the expectation locally was for a signing. For reviews. For interviews. I fulfilled those obligations, too - or will by the time Christmas gets here. Unfortunately, the lawyer who looked the contract over isn't experienced in publishing contracts - it looked okay to him so I took him at his word. I didn't understand the weasel wording it contained about royalties. And it never told me there wasn't a returns policy. It never said my book would cost 30% more than others in my genre. It didn't mention that getting it those 'brick and mortar' stores was going to be nigh on to impossible.

Bottom line, the Never-Ending PublishAmerica thread and the others associated with it (P&E, PA Sucks, etc.) are providing an incredible service to writers all over the world. We'll never know how many people we save... and those who sign anyway, well... there's nothing anyone can do to stop them if they do so after reading any of what's available today.

Just as a final warning: As of October 22, 2005, there are currently 11540 PA books available on Amazon.com. I know for a fact that 15 copies of my book were sold from there within the last two weeks - I bought them myself to fulfill one of my obligations for a signing. With those whopping 15 sales, my book is currently #15 (coincidence, or what?) on the 'PA Bestseller' list on that site.

Does that tell anyone how abysmally the other 11525 below me are selling?

I'll get my money back - the full cost of each - on those fifteen copies because they're already sold. A high percentage of the authors who buy their own books never recover even the 50% they pay when they gratefully accept PA's offer to sell them what they should be providing for free!

Caveat Emptor! And I mean that in its truest sense of the term, because that's just what you'll be: the buyer.

Not the 'published author'.

The buyer.

The disappointed.

The embarrassed.

The one who, in the end, really did pay to play.

-----

As an addendum: I got my 1099-Misc from PA yesterday. My 'account number' consisted of my social security number, a dash, and a four digit number in the 2000s. I have a theory that four digit number represents all the 'active' authors that are left of the 15-16-17000 (or whatever moving-target number of) 'happy authors' they claim today.

Bottom bottom line: my book didn't get the chance it deserves. It's NOT in book stores from sea-to-shining-sea. It IS returnable now, with a lousy 5% discount - which means that a book store will LOSE MONEY (just like I've done) being involved with PA, or it will have to jack the price up to make their profit - on a book that's already priced at least $5 over other books in its genre. And while I AM still one of their 'thousands' of 'authors', trapped for another seven years with this baby, I'm certainly NOT a happy one.

Please don't join me.

Tilly

02-04-2006, 06:01 PM

I'm not a PA author. But I do have a strong desire to be published, because I'd like readers. I really want my words to be read. I can sort of imagine how I'd feel if I was accepted by a publisher. It would be a dream come true, all my hard work paying off, and validation that I can, in fact, write to a publishable standard. I know it will just be the start of a lot more hard work, but that's okay, it's more than worth it.

PA tells writers their dream has come true. It decieves them about the true nature of publishing, and does as much as it can to take its author's money. Its behaviour to those authors who ask legitimate questions is appalling.

I can only imagine how I would feel if I believed I was being published by a commercial publisher, all that happiness and pride, and then found out it was a lie. But that bit I can imagine is terrible. And it really could have happened. There was a point where I didn't know anything about publishing, but was thinking of submitting to agents and publishers. If I'd come across PA's website then, I would have had next to no defences against their deceptions. I'm very lucky I discovered that I had a lot to learn, and that I found out what PA really is.

This thread gives writers information, and knowledge is the best defence against PA.

James D. Macdonald

02-04-2006, 06:56 PM

Did it count, if the authors bought those books themselves?

They were never consistent on whether they did or not.

The program had other problems. Only one book chain was involved (Walden's, if memory serves), there were maximum and minimum orders, the returnable period was ridiculously short, and the books had to be paid for, in full, up front, and ordered directly from PA. In short, so many conditions so far out of the norm that it was unlikely that many books were ordered under it.

The same trick as now, really. They want the "returnable" name without the problems that come with dealing with returns.

DaveKuzminski

02-04-2006, 08:31 PM

Those snail mail letters that PA sent asking if the writer would submit their book may be useful in getting the USPS to open an investigation. I urge every PA writer who received such a letter to give a copy of it to the local USPS Post Master asking them to investigate PA. Also, provide them with a copy of your contract and perhaps a copy of the POZKIN site page where Phil Dolan won in arbitration. Meiners' statement about selling to authors might be useful in proving that the company intended to defraud writers because they were deceived into believing that their books would have a real chance of reaching brick-and-mortar book stores and retailers. Be sure to highlight Meiners' statement.

If enough writers across the country from sea to shining sea contact the postal authorities, something just might happen.

ChaosTitan

02-04-2006, 08:57 PM

I never posted on the old NEPAT thread, or in the Overflow, but I have been following both since joining the Watercooler. The topic fascinated me, because I had once considered submitting to PA.

Around this time last year I finished final edits on my first novel (now resting comfortably in a drawer, suffering from FirstNovel-Itis). A small book about a small town, with a regional appeal (at least, in my own head). So I started looking at the idea of self-publishing. Not having any idea what Self Publishing actually meant, I found links to the sites for iUniverse, Xlibris, and Outskirts. I wrote for information. I compared. I learned what POD was, and the time and financial commitment it required (which quite frankly, I didn't have then, nor do I have now).

I looked at the books offered by those companies, and the quality of cover art and sample pages frightened me. The idea of shelling out my money to have my book set alongside some of those books.....<shudders> And to compound the insult, I got a phone call from my "contact person" at Xlibris some months back, asking for "Mister Kelly M---", and if I was still interested in their services. OUCH! I admit to having a unisex name, but dude! I'm a woman!!!

Anyway....where was I? Ah, yes. I started searching for alternatives. Actual legitimate publishers who "pay the author," rather than the other way around. I found PublishAmerica. I read every page, including the FAQ's, the testimonials, everything. It sounded like a good idea. I really good idea. I was this close....

But as my mother likes to say, a "still, strong voice" kept me from doing it. I thought about the reasons I didn't want to go POD (the cost, the associations with low quality literature, buying and reselling the books myself). All of those things came with PA. I couldn't find any PublishAmerica titles in bookstores. The random books I searched for on Amazon had few or no reviews. Sales rankings were awful. And once I thought hard about it, the idea of a $1 advance had me laughing until I fell out of my chair.

But most importantly, I believed in myself. I believe that I can find a legitimate publisher to buy my work. Maybe not that novel, but the next one, or the next one, or the next. However long it takes to learn my craft, perfect it, and get published and PAID for it. This is my career, and a shortcut like PA would have hurt me, as it has so many others.

Thank you, Mods, for having topics like NEPAT.

-Kelly

Also, on a side note, what do we think (http://www.publishamerica.com/greetingcardpro/createcard1.asp?PostCardID=6970)? Are they Transformers or Voltron?

Cathy C

02-04-2006, 09:03 PM

I'm thinking that this new NEPAT thread would be a really good time to alter one element of our discussion about PublishAmerica:

THEY AREN'T A PUBLISHER!

This is one specific element that all of us keep sliding over the top of. Comparing Random House or Penguin with PublishAmerica isn't comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing apples to cats! PublishAmerica is nothing more or less than a formatting company. But they're certainly not a publisher. Let's look at the elements of what a publisher is.

From Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:

"The business or profession of the commercial production and distribution of literature, information, musical scores or sometimes recordings or art."

What is "commercial production and distribution?" Well, here's the definition provided by the Association of American Publishers (http://www.publishers.org/member/index.cfm) (as a requisite of membership) Emphasis, by the way, is NOT mine, but theirs:

All publishers — large and small, well established and just starting out — are encouraged to join us on this exciting journey.

Who Is Eligible?

Regular Membership in the Association is open to all U.S. companies actively engaged in the publication of books, journals, looseleaf services, computer software, audiovisual materials, databases and other electronic products such as CD-ROM and CD-I, and similar products for educational, business and personal use. This includes producers, packagers, and co-publishers who coordinate or manage most of the publishing process involved in creating copyrightable educational materials for distribution by another organization.

"Actively engaged" means that the candidate must give evidence of conducting an ongoing publishing business with a significant investment in the business.

Does PA meet this standard? No. PublishAmerica has no significant investment in the business. They are a reverse subsidy formatter. They don't edit, they don't copy edit. They have a small staff of people that format books to the standards of the printer. They have no distribution chain, no marketing team (except those that might exist to write solicitation letters to authors,) no warehouse, no infrastructure at all. They are a "reverse" formatter, because while the AUTHOR is not charged for the cost of book production, neither does PublishAmerica pay for it. No, the READER pays this cost via an abnormally high price for the end product, which is far and above the standard cost of a similar product on the market.

Perhaps it's time to consider changing our discussion from "is PA a good or bad publisher?" to "Is PA a publisher AT ALL?"

I say no. Any other votes?

Lisa Y

02-04-2006, 10:27 PM

I had that "funny feeling" when I submitted my mystery novel to PA. The feeling grew stronger when they accepted my novel within a day or two. Kind of fast, I thought, for a traditional publisher, but maybe my book was that good! :snoopy:

I made a media kit. Bookmarks. Business cards. I tried to get my book into local stores by handing a media kit and a free copy of my book (not free to me, of course) over to the managers. Not really a salesperson, I didn't push. I just explained that I was a local author who had written a book. Call me after you read it. We'll set up a signing.

I received no calls. :e2cry:

At this point, I blamed the story. It wasn't written well enough. The stores had a free copy. Had they enjoyed the story, they would have been breaking down my door to get a hold of this wonderful, new, local author! That could have been the case. Or it could have been the price, or the no return policy, or the "mistaken" notion that PA was POD (mistaken, of course, because PA has "nothing in common" with POD publishers.

The relationship I had with PA began to deteriorate. I had joined NAIBA (North Atlantic Independent Booksellers) and planned on attending a conference/tradeshow in AC. I asked PA if they would be attending (many publishers did) and received this reply:

"Unfortunately, we will not be able to attend the tradeshow in September, though you are more then welcome to go to promote your book!" I remember thinking "gee...uh, thanks for allowing me to promote my book.":Wha:

Then I was banned from their message board. Several times. For asking questions about copyright, I received this little ditty from Author Support:

"We have temporarily revoked your message board privileges to protect you
against yourself a little. You had reached the point where you risked coming
across as a whiner, a hairsplitter, and as someone who doles out innuendo.
You probably didn't mean that, so we called a time-out. Sometimes, that does the trick."

After my "time out", I stated that authors sometimes get banned from the Message Board and received this:

"Contrary to your statement, you have not "seen several authors banned from here for stating their opinion." You may have seen a very small number of posts removed that made statements of fact that were simply, factually, untrue, to the point of being comedy. Your statement quoted here is a prime example of such an occurrence."

In other words, "We certainly don't ban authors. Oh...by the way...you are banned." :Jaw:

Then, finally, I received the infamous "tone letter"

"Do not address us in such a tone. We are not deceptive in any way. If you
cannot be truthful and get along with us, then perhaps we should rethink
publishing your book." :eek: :Ssh: And I truly hate myself for this now, but why, oh why didn't I take them up on that? I had the opportunity to say "maybe we should rethink this" but I didn't!!! I was too scared to have my book be not published anymore! Does that make any sense at all?

And what I had done to me was nothing. My book didn't have typos added. I never had the problem of not getting books when I needed them (because I didn't need them - although that fact doesn't make me feel any better). I didn't have false cops show up at my door to harrass me because I was creative enough to beat PA at their own game. I didn't have PA not pay me royalties when they should have (as I haven't sold any books).

At the very least, PA is unprofessional with their authors. The nasty e-mails they send regarding questions every author has the right to ask and receive answers to still astounds me. :e2fight: For this reason alone, every author should stay away.

At the very most, they are scammers and thieves.

Somewhere between "least" and "most", PA will have you doubting yourself as a writer. They may cause a block so thick and hard, that it might take you months or even years to feel you are creative enough to write a book, an article, or even a stinking sentence you could even think of submitting.
:e2writer: :e2paperba:

So stay away. Stay faaaaaarrrrrr away.

Jean Marie

02-04-2006, 10:41 PM

A very warm welcome to all the new posters here http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif You're in the right place and will find loads of support here at AW.

I signed w/ PA in November of 2003. Not nearly as much info on them then as there is now.

Never bought (1) copy of my book. Encouraged others on the message board to do the same. Banned many times for doing so.

Local Borders bought 100 copies. Local B&N bought a few copies.

Friends and family bought via the infamous "list" I submitted. Local paper I had submitted the required information to PA on never received/printed my press release. Total sold that I know of-204.

Amount of marketing by PA (0) even though their contract specifically states it is up to the author to be available for media appearances, booksignings and such that PA may set up.

I spoke to 2 reading groups @ Borders.

I was invited by Borders to participate in 1st Author Roundtable along w/ 2 other authors. The CEO has now begun the institution of this program @ other stores across the country. Did I or Borders hear a peep from PA? No.

July 15, 2005 My contract was cancelled by PA via certified mail w/o prior notice or warning. My rights were fully returned w/o a gag order.

Present-PA continues to sell my book online w/o paying me royalties.

I have rewritten my book and it is self published through Lulu to satisfy local orders while I query it out to agents.

DamaNegra

02-04-2006, 11:14 PM

I'm not a published writer, but when I was looking for publishers for a MS (that I have since decided is not ready to see the light), I came across Lulu. At the time, I thought it was a commercial publisher. If I had come across PA, I would've certainly signed with them without a second though.

I have been following the old NEPAT and the Overflow for quite a long time, and I'm grateful at all the people who take their time to post these things here so that newbies like me will be warned against scams like PA.

NancyMehl

02-04-2006, 11:43 PM

This makes me sad...

From the PAMB:

Last year Publish America rejected my 3rd and 4th book. So someone recommended another place. What hurt was the book was rejected on my birthday and today, on my mom's birthday, I get rejected again. I'm beginning to wonder if I should just pack it in and call it a day. I'm feeling very down and out right now. I could use some advice and encouragement, oh fellow bards. This is all I've ever wanted to do my entire life. My first and second book was done with PA and I so wanted to continue to trend. Ah, but it was not to be. Where in the world do I go from here????

YOU'RE NOT BUYING ENOUGH OF YOUR OWN BOOKS!!!!

That's the only reason PA won't continue printing your work.

As to where to go from here.... Try finding a real publisher. Please.

Nancy

ResearchGuy

02-04-2006, 11:50 PM

...Perhaps it's time to consider changing our discussion from "is PA a good or bad publisher?" to "Is PA a publisher AT ALL?"

I say no. Any other votes?
Crypto vanity press? (Crypto because it disguises its vanity press nature by adding on its fees at the back end and via deceptive contract and practices.)

Yours is an excellent analysis. PA is not a publisher in the generally accepted, dictionary-defined sense of the term.

--Ken

Tilly

02-05-2006, 01:14 AM

SC Harrison

02-05-2006, 02:09 AM

What is "commercial production and distribution?" Well, here's the definition provided by the Association of American Publishers (http://www.publishers.org/member/index.cfm) (as a requisite of membership) Emphasis, by the way, is NOT mine, but theirs:

Does PA meet this standard? No.

Cathy, let me state up front that I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, the AAP does not:

http://www.publishers.org/member/members.cfm#16

Which begs the question: are annual dues more important than basic qualifications? Apparently so.

TwentyFour

02-05-2006, 02:22 AM

From PAMB
I started reading the message boards around 2002. I don't see many posters from that time still posting. Granted, many are busy writing, which is a wise thing to do, but I sure miss their company. If you are an old-timer, please check in. If you know some of the whereabouts of some of the old-timers. Let us know about it.

I wonder if he/she has ever heard of PA's Banning campaigns on authors.

Cathy C

02-05-2006, 02:35 AM

Cathy, let me state up front that I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately, the AAP does not:

http://www.publishers.org/member/members.cfm#16

Which begs the question: are annual dues more important than basic qualifications? Apparently so.

It does indeed beg the question. I should have checked the membership roster before I posted. To say I'm surprised would be an understatement. I have to wonder what sort of "proof" they require if a reverse-subsidy could qualify. :(

akaa1a

02-05-2006, 04:20 AM

Hey...

Want a new place to put infor about PA? Check out this site!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/php/a_report.php

and

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/scam_alerts/scam_alerts.htm

Sher2

02-05-2006, 05:53 AM

Want a new place to put infor about PA? Check out this site!

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/php/a_report.php

See:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/publish.html

aruna

02-05-2006, 11:30 AM

triceretops

02-05-2006, 10:47 PM

I’m sure you’ve read how “traditional” publishers market their author’s books, and how it is not the author’s job to sell books. Other writer sites are great about pushing this ineffective concept, implying Publish America is a detriment to their authors because PA authors must do the heavy lifting when it comes to book promotion.

Have you read the January 2006 Writer’s Digest. There is an interesting article “The State of The Industry,” by Tom Connor. Connor discusses two of the best selling Warner books in recent years, both originally self-published: “Rich Dad, Poor Dad,” by Robert T. Kiyosaki and Sharon L. Lechter, and “The Celestine Prophesy,” by James Redfield. How did these books become bestsellers? Guerrilla Marketing.

I have a feeling that the two cited examples that were self-published, were indeed, just that--self-published with all the control left to the author. Although I haven't looked these titles up. Then why did they go to Warner, if they were such successful self-published titles?

To imply that traditional publishers are inaffective at promotion and marketing, is to spit in the eye of the industry in general.

PA does not even fit into this concept of self-promotion since they cannot even make their books available to any sales outlet aside from cyber sales, and direct author purchases.

BTW, Raven, ALL PUBLISHERS welcome additonal promotion by the author, and suggest ways to do this that does not interfer with their campaigns. I was allowed to mail out flyers to every major newspaper in the U.S. inviting the reviewers to solicit my publisher for a free review copy. IT WORKED! Many authors like to do signings and readings. One of my publishers had a publicity department and I was assigned an agent to prep me for TV and radio interviews. Cost to me? OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Tri

James D. Macdonald

02-06-2006, 12:12 AM

Both Rich Dad, Poor Dad and The Celestine Prophecy fall in the category of specialized non-fiction, and both were truly self-published, with the author doing distribution, taking returns, and setting reasonable prices. They are both well outside of the norm. Very few self-published books are picked up by major publishers, and very few books from major publishers were self-published first. I think we can name all of them.

If those two works had been published through PA, the short discount and high prices would have worked against them getting enough sales to come to anyone's attention, while the poorly-written seven-year contract would have made a legitimate publisher less likely to acquire them had anyone noticed them.

xhouseboy

02-06-2006, 12:38 AM

What's really sad about the author whose third and fourth books were rejected by PA is that they're likely to be better than her first two. And now she's thinking of packing it in. I really hope she doesn't.

I would agree with this in principle, but another downside to PA is that some of the authors, going by the PAMB, regard themselves as more or less the finished article. As a result a few of them seem to be trying to pump out books like shopping lists in order to get the next one published. The downside to that could be that, in some cases, their next books may be inferior.

PVish

02-06-2006, 02:42 AM

These won't last on the PAMB; they're getting a clue. Better archive 'em before they go:

I just wanted to add that I agreed with x xxxxxx. I think the reason PA might have rejected your work is perhaps due to sales (though I could be wrong). I would recommend that authors aggressively promote their books for a year before submitting another manuscript for publication. . . .

and

My third submission to PA was rejected for the same reason--It didn't fit into their criteria. It would be helpful if they said just what their citeria is but I guess that would be to specific for them. I have a feeling it may be sales as well--and I suspect it may be that you and I didn't buy enough if our own books. I hate to say it but PA does seem to thrive on author purchases. I can't afford to buy many of my own so all sales are through regular outlets. I have noticed many PA authors indicating that they buy boxes of their own titles which is great! I have no problem with people doing so to promote their own work. But publishers should promote their authors as much as possible too. I do know,having said this, that most publishers require their authors to self-promote to a great extent so none of us should be surprised, but I think self promotion is more than buying our own books. It is in the form of book signings, attending book events, local and regional media attention, websites and even word of mouth.

(sigh)

Christine N.

02-06-2006, 02:50 AM

Wow, that second poster has is right on the money. Too bad her wisdom will soon be gone from the boards. Guaranteed she'll be getting a tone letter, or even banned quite soon.

And now I wait for the onslaught of "You don't believe in yourself or your work enough!" and "PA gave your work a chance - bow down to them." posts.

It's sad that we can predict their behavior this way.

janetbellinger

02-06-2006, 06:06 AM

Preserving this before it gets edited again or deleted.

Is this person for real? Surely it must be royalty time at PA.

(wandering off, singing a variation on "The Teddy Bears' Picnic")

Oh, my. That came across as particularly harsh if the poster _is_ for real. Please familiarize yourself with the business of publishing. Try some critique groups, some face-to-face writers' organizations, perhaps a class or two if you can find one nearby. Read the many other discussions on this board. Please.

The agent's job is not to teach you your craft; it is to sell the product of that craft. The agent's income shouldn't come from critiquing, or from referring you to editors; it should come from selling your manuscript to a publisher who will pay money for it, in advances and in royalties. A publisher's job is not to make a product available to an author so the author can do _all_ the work of promoting and selling the book; the publisher's job is to make the book available to the public in such a way that all concerned with the sale make money: the writer, the publisher, the bookstore.

Mo

Actually, I am a very real person, and ouch, that hurt. My husband says I am too trusting, but I would rather get stung, while being trusting, than go through life being suspicious of the motives of others. In regards to your suggestions of taking writing classes, joining critique groups etc., I can assure you that I have done all that, and at great cost to myself, over the past 14 years. Writing workshops, for example, typically cost in the neighbourhood of $400-$500 for a 3 or 4 day course. In critique groups or writing circles, you are dealing with amateurs who may know no more or even less about writing than you do yourself. Professional editing costs between $500-$600 (I checked) in Canada. Every where you turn, there are services offered to help writers improve their craft, all at a fee, of course. What about the writers who make their living by telling other writers about rules for writing? I guess I am kind of a rebel, because as soon as somebody tells me the way it is supposed to be, I think that it should not. Perhaps, as you say, it is not a publisher's job to sell authors their own books. But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses? What if my book might appeal to a segment of the population? Should those readers be denied a chance to read my book, just because the approved publishers opt to turn me down? I can assure you, Jim, that I am proud of the title of my book, and also that I have no intention of deleting my post. I wish you the very best in all your writing endeavours, and thank you for all the information, but I will perhaps foolishly, go ahead with my dream. P A - full steam ahead. Or, as Paulo Coelho puts it in his introduction to The Alchemist, "But if you believe yourself worthy of the thing you fought so hard to get, then you become an instrument of God, you help the Soul of the World, and you understand why you are here." For me, it is not about cynicism. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.

Janet Bellinger
Teacher on the Run
Rain
Silver Sighs

MMo

02-06-2006, 06:26 AM

Wow, Janet -- I don't even know where to start -- except to say that I am glad I went back and edited my earlier post.

If you are determined to go with PA after reading these threads, and after hearing the warnings posted by others who have gone that route, who have suffered, and who have learned, obviously you will go that route.

However, if you have a marketable manuscript that may not be suitable for "masses," why not try a reputable small publisher first? Those of us in the midlist would only hope to see "hundreds of thousands" of copies sold; we're more likely to see "tens of thousands," and some small publishers are quite happy with "thousands." The point is, the reputable small publisher will have a vested interest in making those sales and so will participate in the marketing of your book.

Why tie yourself up with a less-than-stellar printer for seven years when there are other options? Heck, if you just want to see it out there, go to Lulu, and, if you're really determined, pay the fee for whatever that upper tier distribution charge is, and go from there. With the work you'd have to do for a PA printed book dedicated to your own book, you'll see more sales and realize more money, and if you want to, you can shut down the Lulu edition at any time.

Or really, truly, self-publish the book--although I suspect that way will have a sharper learning curve than the steps I proposed in my last post.

I was fortunate; I found a state-wide writers' organization that had a terrific conference each year, with workshops and networking, and I joined an early chapter of Romance Writers of America that had a greater percentage of published authors than unpublished ones at that time.

Nobody ever said that starting a career would be either easy or inexpensive. There are, however, ways of making it more difficult and more expensive, and I think the posters here have more than adequately proven that going with PA is one of those ways.

Mo

eqb

02-06-2006, 06:40 AM

Actually, I am a very real person, and ouch, that hurt. My husband says I am too trusting, but I would rather get stung, while being trusting, than go through life being suspicious of the motives of others.

Welcome, Janet. I'm sorry that stung, but in this case, it's the truth that hurts, not vague suspicions. Publish America is not a genuine publisher. They are a scam operation that makes money from selling to its authors.

In regards to your suggestions of taking writing classes, joining critique groups etc., I can assure you that I have done all that, and at great cost to myself, over the past 14 years.

I too have participated in workshops and critique groups. Some cost money, but not all of them. Some consist solely of amateurs, but many include well-published pros who participate so they can pay forward the help they received when they were just starting out.

Perhaps, as you say, it is not a publisher's job to sell authors their own books. But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses?

I'm sorry, but I hear this kind of "grand conspiracy" complaint so many times, it makes me want to spork my eyes out. Publishers do not "censor." Publishers love to find new talent. Of course they try to make money -- that's how they can pay their authors decent advances and royalties -- but that doesn't mean they aren't interested in good stories. What we writers need to do is write books that stand out from the rest. Me, I'm still working on that part, but I think I can break into commerical publishing.

What if my book might appeal to a segment of the population?

Then you find the right niche publisher(s).

Should those readers be denied a chance to read my book, just because the approved publishers opt to turn me down?

The problem with PA is that so many readers will *not* get a chance to read your book. It won't get good distribution (heck, it won't get any). Bookstores won't get competitive discounts. The so-called return policy is yet another ploy, with so many restrictions, it will never do the authors any good. And the cover prices are so high, that even if ordinary readers hear about your book, they'll get turned off by the cost.

I wish you the very best in all your writing endeavours, and thank you for all the information, but I will perhaps foolishly, go ahead with my dream. P A - full steam ahead.

I wish you the best of luck. Please do check in after six months or a year and let us know how things are going.

--Beth

janetbellinger

02-06-2006, 06:52 AM

Dear Mo and Beth
Thanks for the advice.
Janet

eqb

02-06-2006, 06:56 AM

Sigh. Why do I feel that PA has suckered yet another victim?

James D. Macdonald

02-06-2006, 07:29 AM

Sigh. Why do I feel that PA has suckered yet another victim?

Because they sucker forty to eighty new folks a day, every day. Nothing unusual.

Some folks just need to see for themselves.

Sheryl Nantus

02-06-2006, 07:35 AM

Sigh. Why do I feel that PA has suckered yet another victim?

because they have.

PA's primary market isn't and never will be the general public - it's always the authors who will spend money purchasing their own books and trying to resell them to the public.

PA encourages this with the constant repetition of the conspiracy theory - that somehow there's no need for new writers by publishers and that it's a closed shop. Of course it only takes a few minutes surfing the Net to find new writers being signed by agents and publishers almost daily in a variety of genres. To say nothing of e-pubs and small presses expanding to include more and more new writers.

PA sells books to the author at a grossly inflated price to boot, paying little in royalties (that is, if they pay) and then tossing the authors aside once the money dries up. Then the PA author sits there with boxes of books and wonders about where he/she went wrong.

in about a month we'll have a new influx of PA authors realizing, as they look at their pitiful (and usually incorrect) royalty check that they've been taken and taken good.

PA has already been taken to court and lost against TWO of their own writers who were ripped off for royalty checks. They lost another lawsuit against Encylopedia Britannica. How anyone sees them as a legitimate company is beyond me.

*shrugs*

MMo

02-06-2006, 07:45 AM

SC Harrison

02-06-2006, 07:50 AM

but I will perhaps foolishly, go ahead with my dream. P A - full steam ahead. Or, as Paulo Coelho puts it in his introduction to The Alchemist, "But if you believe yourself worthy of the thing you fought so hard to get, then you become an instrument of God, you help the Soul of the World, and you understand why you are here." For me, it is not about cynicism. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.

Janet Bellinger
Teacher on the Run
Rain
Silver Sighs

Janet, you can believe in it as strongly as you want to, and you can work at it as hard as possible, but that won't convince a bookstore owner to lose money on your book. If you think you can realize your dream by selling books out of your trunk, I wish you the best of luck.

AmandaPA

02-06-2006, 07:54 AM

[QUOTE=Sheryl Nantus]

PA sells books to the author at a grossly inflated price to boot, paying little in royalties (that is, if they pay) and then tossing the authors aside once the money dries up. Then the PA author sits there with boxes of books and wonders about where he/she went wrong.

I agree with this statement, but when it comes to being tossed aside, that can also happen with commercial publishers. They will sometimes do a run of around 3000 books, do very little or no promotion and then put the title on backlist to gather dust so to speak. I know because it happened to me. I received a $2,500 advance though, unlike the $1.00 that I received from PA.

Tilda

02-06-2006, 11:37 AM

Writing workshops, for example, typically cost in the neighbourhood of $400-$500 for a 3 or 4 day course. In critique groups or writing circles, you are dealing with amateurs who may know no more or even less about writing than you do yourself. Professional editing costs between $500-$600 (I checked) in Canada. Every where you turn, there are services offered to help writers improve their craft, all at a fee, of course.
I'm an unpublished author, who hasn't put a penny in editing services or workshops, and I know my text is very close to being publishable at the current editing stage (the editing alone has taken some 6 months now). The only investments I've made have been some books, one of which I heartily recommend to you and any PA author: Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, by Renni Browne & Dave King.
You don't have to pay for editing. The editing your editor will do at the real publishing house is all you need, the rest you must do yourself. There are plenty of free tools around, for example online. By the way, I've probably learned the most critiquing other people's texts ("hmm...a lot of these writers seem to do this thingamajig, but it doesn't sound good...oops, I have some instances of this in my own text, let's go and rewrite..."). It's good to give back to fellow writers, and learn something at the same time:)

I would rather get stung, while being trusting, than go through life being suspicious of the motives of others.
Janet, there is nothing wrong with realism. It is your best protection in the publishing business, because scams abound in this arena.

Best of luck to you, whatever you choose.:)

Christine N.

02-06-2006, 04:13 PM

Janet, you can always post a bit of your work here at AW on the "Share your Work" forum. It's free, and people here usually give pretty good feedback.

Publishers loyalty is to the reader, not the author. Why? Because the readers buy the books. It's their job to put good books on the market at a fair price. I admit, sometimes they don't succeed - things get published all the time that are, uh, well, not what I would consider stellar. But someone at some house did.

eqb

02-06-2006, 04:36 PM

I received a $2,500 advance though, unlike the $1.00 that I received from PA.

And unlike PA's books, your book also went through a real edit, not a Word spell-check, and it got real distribution, with industry-standard discounts and placement in bookstores, and also its cover price was not inflated above the going market rate. No?

AnnaWhite

02-06-2006, 04:45 PM

First of all, a warm welcome to Ilovepensandpaper, AmandaPA, and Janet.

The experience, when one first falls out of PA's rosy illusion into PA's latrine of reality, is the hardest.

Then one needs to punch a few pillows for a while, scream to the moon, and vent one's frustration. This is a good place to vent!

Finally, one can again begin the journey towards one's dream, like Paulo Coelho's Alchemist.

PA is not the fulfilment of the dream, nor is it a stepping stone. It's just a pothole in the road.

But it does serve one valuable purpose. It is the beginning of a real-life lesson about the publishing industry. By bringing us to this forum, it brings us into contact with other writers, and with a wealth of information that may save us from falling into future potholes.

On another totally different note:

I'd like to remind anybody who would like to contribute their story to the True Stories About PublishAmerica (http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm) site, to please PM me or email the website administrator. Stories can be long or brief, simple or dramatic. Anybody can contribute his/her story. I'm happy to help with any proof-reading.

Here's how the site works:

All the stories on the site remain the copyright of the respective authors. If anybody wants his/her story removed at any time, for any reason, it will take a simple PM or email to webmaster@wizardessbooks.com. Similarly, if anybody wants any changes to their own stories, already on the site, send a PM or email. I will only post a story on the site after having the person's permission (ie, I will not use stories from forums without asking).

AmandaPA

02-06-2006, 05:32 PM

Beth, that is all true. It had a 55% discount for bookstores and was on the shelf of some bookstores. My book with PA started with a 40% discount, but with the new return policy was dropped to a ridiculous 5%. I have readers all across the country and out of this country who have sent me emails stating that they were unable to get bookstores to order my book for them since this new discount was implemented. This left me in the terrible position of either buying my own books and selling to them or telling them they would have to order online. It was embarrassing to say the least. In order to keep some of my readers I signed and mailed books as far away as Sweden, France and Australia. The postage rates for international air are very high and then add the cost of buying my own books. My book was doing pretty well before the discount was dropped and I was stupid enough to sign another contract with them. Now I'm stuck and I guess my new book will have this same 5% discount. Somebody please, just kick me for being so stupid.

If any of you other authors thinking of going with PA believe that your books will be in bookstores with this 5% discount, think again. It won't happen. If your readers can't go into a bookstore and either buy the book from the shelf or order the book, you will lose most of those readers. I'm talking about readers who are not family or friends. After all your family can only buy so many books and then what?

Aconite

02-06-2006, 05:55 PM

Amanda, I hope you won't continue to think of yourself as stupid. You may have made a bad choice, but that doesn't make you stupid. Keep the blame where it belongs: on PA's deceptive advertising and author-unfriendly practices.

keltora

02-06-2006, 07:11 PM

586 sold in 2005, 23 so far in 2006.

Alas that the Indepence Books program is apparently no more! AN would have been a shoo-in for that coveted status.

(For those who came in late, the Independence Books program was a special deal by PublishAmerica a few years ago. If a book sold 500 copies, it would be made returnable! A half-dozen (out of thousands of titles) qualified. Then ... they stopped doing that.)

Valentine's Day is coming up. Give that special someone a copy of Atlanta Nights (http://www.lulu.com/content/102550)!

Well, shuckey Darn...

At least we're over 600 copies sold.

Take that, PA!

And speaking of Publish(scam)America, it broke my heart to look at the local papers Sunday and see out of a list of 15 local authors, four had books with PA and one with Authorhouse.

So there are still people falling into the trap...

*sigh*

Time for me to write an 'eye-opening' letter to the Knoxville Writer's Guild and remind them that they should not be promoting PA as a good idea.

Though I suspect it is a couple of local PA authors, including one who now has four or five books with them, who keep promoting it.

Kevin Yarbrough

02-06-2006, 07:40 PM

I use to be one of the PA devout but when I went to the convention I learned a few thins, after I got home and did some looking I began to see the light. I wanted to see how truthful their rejection rate was so I took 30 pages of one of my WIP and coppied it over and over and over and sent it in. They accepted it. When I went online and told everyone what I did they recinded the offer.

A few months later I received a CC'd letter from PA's attorney that he had sent to the FBI and my local police department. In it it stated what I did was fraud and that I that something should be done about me. That night a cop showed up at my house, a cop who refused to show his badge and then told me to fix things with PA in a week or he would arrest me for deceptive practice, something that PA wasn't even claiming. Now, no money ever changed hands so deceptive practice isn't something that would stick. The fraud charge was also bogus since what I did was not fraud, as I found out from a literary attorney. PA's attorney knew this but sent out the letter anyway. It was a scare tactic to shut me up and to get me to go away. It was unethical on PA's attorney's part, but he didn't care. I hope he is getting his fill with all that is going on with PA these days. What comes around, goes around Vic.

DaveKuzminski

02-06-2006, 07:50 PM

A few months later I received a CC'd letter from PA's attorney that he had sent to the FBI and my local police department. In it it stated what I did was fraud and that I that something should be done about me. That night a cop showed up at my house, a cop who refused to show his badge and then told me to fix things with PA in a week or he would arrest me for deceptive practice, something that PA wasn't even claiming. Now, no money ever changed hands so deceptive practice isn't something that would stick. The fraud charge was also bogus since what I did was not fraud, as I found out from a literary attorney. PA's attorney knew this but sent out the letter anyway. It was a scare tactic to shut me up and to get me to go away. It was unethical on PA's attorney's part, but he didn't care. I hope he is getting his fill with all that is going on with PA these days. What comes around, goes around Vic.

You should send a copy of that letter to the Bar Association in Maryland so they can discipline that lawyer.

James D. Macdonald

02-06-2006, 07:53 PM

I use to be one of the PA devout but when I went to the convention I learned a few thins, after I got home and did some looking I began to see the light.

I doubt you were the only one who talked with other authors and compared notes. That may be why there hasn't been a second annual PA convention.

LloydBrown

02-06-2006, 07:55 PM

A few months later I received a CC'd letter from PA's attorney that he had sent to the FBI and my local police department. In it it stated what I did was fraud and that I that something should be done about me. That night a cop showed up at my house, a cop who refused to show his badge

That seriously sounds like somebody who is not a cop!

If you ever encounter that situation, pick up the phone and call the police. Tell them somebody is pretending to be a police officer and you want to verify his identity. If he's a cop, he'll wait (probably impatiently, thinking you're a jerk). If not, then you have a problem, but at least you have the cops on the phone. If you have a second person present, get a video camera.

It's really sad to see how belligerent this scam company is with its scamees. Thank God they're not competent, too.

DaveKuzminski

02-06-2006, 07:57 PM

That or PA expected the authors to buy each other's books in droves and that didn't happen. PA obviously didn't get as much bang out of the one free package of kool-aid as they expected.

aka eraser

02-06-2006, 08:45 PM

Janet, your posts are literate (though they could use a few paragraph breaks). Your manuscript probably is as well. On this basis alone it would rank in the top 10% or so of a publisher’s slushpile.

This thread is not made up solely of disgruntled PA authors with an axe to grind. Regular contributors include commercially published writers, editors, at least one publisher, industry watchdogs, and a lawyer extremely well-versed in all matters related to publishing - in short, folks who know literary shine from shinola.

Their motives are completely altruistic. They want to spare writers the pain of discovering the hard way that they made a bad choice when they went with Publish America. They most especially want to dissuade those writers like you, who appear to be very serious about their craft, from making that bad choice.

This thread is only a small part of what the AW Water Cooler has to offer. I hope you’ll explore the rest of it.

Thanks for posting. Good luck. And please stick around.

Ken Schneider

02-06-2006, 09:03 PM

PA statements, and meanings.

S : "Our books are stocked in stores from sea to shining sea."

M: Authors have placed their books in local stores on consignment, in every state in the U.S., not PA.

S: "We never charge any author fees, ever."

M: They don’t, but, you must pay for your own copyright fee 30.00, to the U.S. copyright office, not PA.

Define what a writer would consider a fee charged by a publisher. No Commercial publisher charges fees. Only vanity presses, for editing, cover work, formatting. PA doesn’t edit books, they check for spelling errors. That is the authors job at PA. P.A. is reverse vanity. This means that they receive their funds for producing a book when the author buys them, which most do.

S: "PublishAmerica is not in any way a POD publisher."

M: They are. POD means publish on demand. P.A. books are printed as they are ordered. PA does not do print runs of books, i.e. print 5,000 copies for distribution to bookstores.

S: Here, "Now, a word of caution is in order. Bookstore availability is not necessarily the same as bookstore shelf display. For a book to be stocked by a bookstore, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to order it. Typically, it's not the store manager who makes such decisions, unless he runs an independent store. Larger chains such as Waldenbooks, Barnes & Noble, and Borders have "buyers" who select which titles are to be stocked. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move."

M: Noise/ mass advertising having been done by the publisher, book reviews, or large pre-release demand for a title. PA has no advertising department. Their focus for advertising is directed to the authors. Book reviewers such as the NYT, Kirkus, and others, know what PA is, and won’t review books.

Contradiction: Here: "A bookstore's decision to stock a book is generally made by the manager. A bookstore typically stocks just one percent of the 190,000 new books that are published each year. For bookstores to stock all books published would mean adding 20 feet of new shelf space every day, seven days per week. Therefore bookstore managers must be selective on what books they choose."

M: Selective/ Choosing the books that have a reasonable price in line with commercial standards. Books that fit their shelves. Books that have a standard return % attached. PA offers what is called a short return 5%. No bookstore will stock, nor sometimes order, an overpriced, unedited, short discount, first time author’s book.

S: "And, by the way, we are indeed number one. No other traditional book publisher has as many new books in print, every day!"

M: Here: http://www.publishamerica.com/index.asp They run an author mill. They push as many authors through the system, per day, as they can. More authors, more authors buying books. Being number one in the publishing industry means, book sales, not authors in print or books printed. I have no doubt that, No other publisher has as many new books in print per day, not printed, sold or read.

When reading the information on the PA home page, and contemplating submitting, ask questions, don’t assume you know what the answer is.

PA’s wording is crafted with a careful hand, and eye toward a double meaning.

What the traditional meaning of statements such as, "Our books are stocked in stores from sea to shining sea," meant to me when I read it, was that my book will be stocked in bookstores like every other authors book I’d seen there. We know with PA this is not what is meant.

There are many, many more words and PA meanings that must be covered. Doing so would take up oodles of space. The answers are here in the form of former PA authors, and knowledgeable people who have fought against the PA scam.

Your questions will be answered with truth and honesty here at AW.

You must be the person who decides whose side of the topic to believe.

PA, is not a threat to the publishing industry. Their books are not geared to sell to the reading public.

They admit to 17,000 authors on their rolls.

They admit to coming up on a million sales since their inception in 1999.

That is an average of 58.8 sales per author.

Ken Schneider

02-06-2006, 09:30 PM

Actually, But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses? What if my book might appeal to a segment of the population? Should those readers be denied a chance to read my book, just because the approved publishers opt to turn me down?

Janet Bellinger
Teacher on the Run
Rain
Silver Sighs

Who will get your books to the masses? PA dosn't have that type of distribution.
With the price of gas, and the nasty demeanor of bookstores when faced with another PA author, you'll go broke doing it yourself.

Trust me, been there, done that. I'm hard-headed, too. Enjoy the trip.

PA preys on people who have no publishing experience, don't know the industry ropes. That is how people are suckered in.

Woody Hayes once said, "Anything easy ain't worth a damn." Anyone can be printed by PA, it's easy. It's hard to be good enough to be published by a real publisher.

No one will read your book, because it will not be anywhere that they are.

I'll tell you what will happen, [I've been through the PA grinder], your book will come out. You will buy copies to sell to those in your town. You will go to the local bookstores, who won't stock it with out you giving it to them on consignment. You will set up one or two book signings, and will sell a few books to the locals, if you bring your own books. Then you will go home, and after a few months, you will keep staring at the box of leftover books in the corner, and drop the price to five buck to get rid of them, give a few away, and keep one as a rememberance of what not to do again.

There are fine, editors, and teachers of the writing craft right here at AW, free.

They are more than helpful.
See you in a year. We will be here to welcome you back. Just as friendly, and just as willing to help you with your writing.

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-06-2006, 10:36 PM

Perhaps, as you say, it is not a publisher's job to sell authors their own books. But is it their job to censor the marketplace, to publish only authors who they know will sell a hundreds of thousands of copies, thereby making sure that the reading public only has access to books that are geared to the masses?Well, if you want to put it that way, yes.

But that's not an entirely accurate way of putting it.

I've been reading forums at AW long enough that I'm starting to feel like I'm spouting from Uncle Jim's Concise Book of Pithy Writerly Sayings (which I would totally love to see him publish, by the way). Here comes one of 'em:

It's the publishers' job (and that of the editors and agents) to be the reader's advocate.

They aren't looking for books "geared towards the masses," per se. What they're looking for are books with ripping good stories that are well written, because those books have the known effect of selling "hundreds of thousands of copies" (or at least tens of thousands, or, well, thousands, in which case a small commercial publisher, like MMo said, is the way to go). Why? Because readers want to read good books! Not "commercial" books. Not "trendy" books. Good books.

Some of us feel that literary agents and the acquiring editors at commerical publishing houses are good judges of that, and so we let the acceptance letter tell us when we've finally produced something of quality.

Those of us who do not agree--who feel that our books are just fine and dandy the way they are, thank you, and all those gatekeepers between us and mass market distribution are just mean old poopyheads trying to maintain the stagnant status quo and prevent our mind-blowing latest golden words from reaching the public? Well, if that's how we feel, we can self-publish, or go with a vanity publisher.

But for the Gods' sakes, if you go that route, 1. go with an honest vanity publisher or self-publishing aid, one with a reasonable, non-deceptive contract, one that doesn't try to pose as a commercial publisher, one that doesn't cheat you of your royalties or sell books to which they no longer have the rights or abuse its authors with "don't take that tone with us" letters.

And 2. realize that the readers will be the final judge of whether your distrust of the institutional "censors" was well-founded. After all, it's those "censors" job to maintain a certain quality level of selection on the book shelves. If your writing isn't yet up to that quality level, then no matter how cleverly you bypass the gatekeepers, the readers inside that castle they're guarding won't be fooled.

(And if your writing isn't up to that quality yet, there's no reason to suppose it never will be! Write the next book. And the next. And the next. That's the only way you learn this craft and trade.)

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-06-2006, 10:41 PM

PA encourages this with the constant repetition of the conspiracy theory - that somehow there's no need for new writers by publishers and that it's a closed shop. Of course it only takes a few minutes surfing the Net to find new writers being signed by agents and publishers almost daily in a variety of genres. To say nothing of e-pubs and small presses expanding to include more and more new writers.Isn't there a thread somewhere on the AW Water Cooler that exists specifically to list and announce debut novel sales by AW members?

If not, there should be. And it should be linked along with the other threads we remind people about when discussing PA. It's great to remind PA's potential victims that no, the publishing industry is not closed to no-name no-sales-yet writers, but it's even better to be able to say, "For example, check out Liam over here. He posts here all the time. Go chat with him about his experience selling his very first book. You can send him a PM, for goodness's sake. Here's a link to his profile page."

Maybe it should be in the "writing novels" forum? Or the "self-promotion" one, or the "achievements" one?

James D. Macdonald

02-06-2006, 11:17 PM

What Bonnie didn't mention is that she was one of PA's top sellers and appeared in PA's New York Times Book Review ads. See the Index to the NEPAT (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=82&pp=20) for information on the NYTBR ads.

The letter itself is first quoted here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=64&pp=20

It was dissected here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524&page=66&pp=20

More (and more and more) on subsequent pages.

DeePower

02-07-2006, 02:56 AM

Teacher on the Run was released in October.

Paperback: 164 pages
Publisher: PublishAmerica (October 31, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN: 1413799736
Product Dimensions: 8.5 x 5.5 x 0.4 inches
It's offered with only a 5% discount.

Too bad.

Dee

Sheryl Nantus

02-07-2006, 03:16 AM

and $19.95 to boot.

ouch.

Diane

02-07-2006, 03:18 AM

Since Janet's already signed up with PA, this is too late for her, but for anyone else thinking of following suit, please do the following two things:

1) Take the Pledge: "Since my publisher is not a vanity or subsidy publisher and has nothing in common with them, I solemnly swear or affirm that I will never give PublishAmerica my credit card number or write their name on the "pay to" line of a check or money order."

and

2) Go to your local bookstore and ask them to show you any book they have in stock from PublishAmerica, so that you can check out the size and quality of their books yourself. For comparison, ask to see a trade paperback from HarperCollins or Random House.

Nexusman

02-07-2006, 03:31 AM

Go to your local bookstore and ask them to show you any book they have in stock from PublishAmerica, so that you can check out the size and quality of their books yourself.

Assuming there are any PA books there. Good for a laugh, though.

-Nick

Christine N.

02-07-2006, 03:49 AM

Uh, Nexusman, I think that was the point.

Saundra Julian

02-07-2006, 05:47 AM

From: Saundra Julian
To: Jessica@publishamerica.com (Jessica@publishamerica.com)
Subject: Settlement Agreement and Release
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 01:14:17 +0000

Dear Jessica,

We received the Settlement and Release forms from your office last week and have a problem with Paragraph 3 therein.
In this provision, you have asked us to sign away the First Amendment Rights of attorneys, agents, and family members. That is something we are not willing to do and question if it is even legal.

As for the two of us, we would agree to the Confidentiality and Non-Disparagement Provision, but do not feel that we can control the actions of other people nor are we willing to police these people to ensure compliance with something they are not even aware exists.

We would gladly return the signed contract to you, if Provision 3 can be amended or removed entirely.

Sincerely,
Saundra Julian & Molly Jones

Dear Ms. Julian & Ms. Jones,

It appears that you have been given false information. Our amendment is actually quite standard, not only in the publishing industry, but in other industries as well.
We will not alter it at all, and we recommend that you seek competent legal council to ensure your understanding of the amendment.

You are certainly free to not sign the document, with the contract then remaining fully in effect.
Thank You,
Jessica,Author Support Team
Support@PublishAmerica.com (TeamSupport@PublishAmerica.com)

Dear Jessica,

Once again, we are writing to ask for a release from our publishing contract.

We cannot sign the release form that you sent us as of January 6th 2005,
because of Para 3 contained therein.

We have been advised that paragraph 3 is unenforceable, because the groups of people mentioned in it, are not a party to the contract and would have to sign the release form for it to be legally binding on them.

Therefore, we ask that another release and settlement form (omitting Para. 3) be sent to us as soon as possible.

Thank you,
Saundra Julian and Molly Jones

Subject: Settlement and Release Form
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 200600:28:48 +0000

Dear Ms. Julian and Ms. Jones,

As we have been advised of the contrary, we will not alter the amendment. Your contract therefore remains in effect.
Thank You,
Jessica
Author Support Team
Support@PublishAmerica.com (http://mailcenter.comcast.net/wmc/v/wm/43E7EBD3000A5FA500000F982200734076970B0E0497059D0E ?cmd=ComposeTo&adr=Support%40PublishAmerica%2Ecom&sid=c0)

astonwest

02-07-2006, 06:05 AM

I've almost rid myself of all the copies of my book I bought.
If only we weren't currently under a burn ban...

Nexusman

02-07-2006, 06:08 AM

Those responses seem like form letters. They're vague enough to be applied to just about any situation regarding the ammendment contract -- in the first response, you didn't say anything to merit a "false information" comment.

-Nick

Saundra Julian

02-07-2006, 06:21 AM

In another email, I informed PA we would not be buying any more books (yes, we bought 50) from them and had stopped all marketing efforts for our book...

"Meaning, there is no more money to be made on this book! Therefore, if you refuse to release our book, it can only be construed as spite!"

Well, spite it is, as you can see!

Martin J Ross

02-07-2006, 06:36 AM

DamaNegra

02-07-2006, 06:49 AM

As you legal councel has advised you that I may sign away the rights of persons that neither are not in my employ, and have not ellected me to represent them is enforceable. -snipped-
Thank you.

Don't forget it's legal council ;)

Seriously, though. Although it does sound like a form letter, like Nexusman said, it's the most ridiculous and unprofessional form letter I have ever read in my life. Who'd want to have business with people who replied like that to their own authors?

Another reason not to sign with them.

Saundra Julian

02-07-2006, 07:13 AM

Martin,
I may have to steal that? :D

I knew PA wasn't a "top of the line" publisher when I signed with them...what I didn't know was how they treated their authors AFTER they gave "their book the chance it deserved."

From the time you sign on the dotted line, PA thinks they own you...heart, body, and soul!

The mind-control begins, in earnest, the minute you are "allowed" to post on their precious, message boards!
As long as you praise them and don't ask any questions about their editing, (or lack thereof) high priced books, short discounts, lack of promotions, or payment of royalties you're allowed to stay on the boards and promote your book. But ask any of these questions and you will be banned!

It's simple, they use those boards to recruit new victims...takes some of us longer to catch on, than others!

Nexusman

02-07-2006, 07:24 AM

It's simple, they use those boards to recruit new victims...

And to get the authors to buy their own books.

-Nick

PVish

02-07-2006, 07:57 AM

From the PAMB:
It's all about promoting with confidence. I work for a major Grocery Chain in Texas. It so happens that 2006 is going to be a plank for our company that reads ...2006 the year of literacy.

I got busy, talked to the public relations manager. He wants a copy of my book and then share it with the book and magazine buyer. we have over 300 stores. My point is promote, dig , find any way to expose your work and it helps to have a personality while doing so I have offered to do book signings on my days off in any of our stores . Work work work, who cares at least I am going to give it my best shot, then the reader can tell me if I stink at this or not.

Didn't someone here try to get books in stores a few years ago? (Dee, was it you?). What this guy doesn't realize is that if PA won't ship the books to the stores, all the promoting "with confidence" won't help.

A "best shot" requires a properly loaded gun to hit the target. PA is only gonna let you fire blanks.

Saundra Julian

02-07-2006, 07:58 AM

Ah, how could I forget the "PA guilt trip?"

If your book isn't selling, it is your fault! You're not buying enough of your own books. Bookstores won't buy them because blah, blah, blah...so it is YOUR duty to peddle them.

Good luck with that one!

Memphis Ed

02-07-2006, 08:12 AM

The mind-control begins, in earnest, the minute you are "allowed" to post on their precious, message boards!
As long as you praise them and don't ask any questions about their editing, (or lack thereof) high priced books, short discounts, lack of promotions, or payment of royalties you're allowed to stay on the boards and promote your book. But ask any of these questions and you will be banned!

I continue to wonder how much it would affect PAs business if they simply shut down the message board.

The folks like Saundra are the ones that hurt me the most....obviously a talented and kind person who gets sucked into this abyss before she realizes what has happened.

The folks at Author House and Lulu don't make any reps about what their authors are getting into, much less giving false hopes about getting published.

I don't have a dog in the hunt...I am fortunate to be with a legitmate publisher and have never had the first hand PA experience.

That said, I am somewhat disappointed at the loud PA alums who are not following Phill Dolan's arbitration route. This looks like the best way to bring these bastards down, but too few are following the lead. Why is that?

It appears to me that PA wins not through strategy, but through the ambivalence of its authors. Too many sign up, get knocked down, and simply quietly go away.

I think that so many authors take the easy way to PA that they aren't going to fight after they realize what has happened. They simply choose to kinda sorta act like it never happened. This results in what appears to be four classes of PA authors:

1) Honeymooners-active on the PAMB, denial about their publisher, waiting on the first royalty check. Looking for ways to promote their book. These are the current "way to go" or "how to promote your book" folks at PAMB.

2) Early recognition- Realized what happened within the past year or so. Gathering up the broken dreams and attempting to determine what to do next. Determining what to do next. These are the newbies and some of the vocal regulars to this forum.

3) Moving on with success- Been the PA route, busted through to greater pastures. These are the published authors after PA.

4) Over it. Been there, done that. Tried the writing gig, now off to something else and might as well never been there. Book is in the drawer and never spoken of.

There is actually another group which is number 5. This is the very small group of PA authors who have a book or even more and are very happy with never selling a book but hanging around the PAMB with their friends. They are similar to Amway distributors who never sell anything or sign anybody up but like to go to the conventions to see their friends.

I would hope that more of the number 2 group would consider the arbitration action while they are still hot under the collar and before they morph into number 4. I think this is the Achlles heal of PA and hope more will investigate this.

ResearchGuy

02-07-2006, 08:41 AM

... I must inform you that I had a contract signed by my neighbor that relinquishes your rights to print my book, and that if you do not comply within 1 (one) week, you will be fined $5,000 per day that you have not complied.
Thank you.
Pure genius. Admirable.

::tip of the hat::

--Ken

Ilovepensandpaper

02-07-2006, 09:43 AM

Well, I decided what to do with my website. I put all the links to the Publish America sites that were listed here or on other 'against' PA sites or articles on it. I put them on the left hand side of the page and put 'Do Your Homework on PA'.

In red is the Author Note. You can buy the book if you want, but be aware...
I must've really been peeved today or something to start this thing, but I put it together. Can't wait to see the messageboard in a few days or so. Everyone here is free to go see it and tell me whether you like it or not. www.geocities.com/complexitypoet (http://www.geocities.com/complexitypoet)

AnnaWhite

02-07-2006, 01:27 PM

Everyone here is free to go see it and tell me whether you like it or not. www.geocities.com/complexitypoet (http://www.geocities.com/complexitypoet)
That's a brilliant and brave website, IMO. I just hope thousands of people see it before signing their work away to PA.

SeanDSchaffer

02-07-2006, 01:36 PM

Snipped....

That said, I am somewhat disappointed at the loud PA alums who are not following Phill Dolan's arbitration route. This looks like the best way to bring these bastards down, but too few are following the lead. Why is that?

....Snipped.

My Emphasis.

Ed, I think one reason many PA authors don't go that route is money. A lot of people believe arbitration is more expensive than they personally can afford. I would love to be able to do something legal about what they did to my book, but 1) I don't know how much it costs, and 2) I don't have a lot of money in the first place.

I know a lot of PA authors who have wished they could do something, the way I wish I could, but the fear of going deep into debt to get it done--and the fear of how much we'll have to pay if we lose the arbitration--can be crippling to such a route. I personally wonder if that might be part of the reason PA's contract demands arbitration in Maryland? If people have to travel long distances to get there, that would definitely add to the stress on the pocketbook.

AnnaWhite

02-07-2006, 01:49 PM

Too many sign up, get knocked down, and simply quietly go away.
Interesting points, Memphis Ed.

Yes, I too have felt the fighting energy dwindle. Not that I've given up writing yet, but as for taking legal avenues... last year I would, had I seen a reasonable chance of succeeding. Now I'm not so sure. I'm in the UK, and, according to my contract, I can't resort to arbitration. It would be a normal court hearing, which would be expensive, like everything in the UK. Last year, if I'd been in the USA and read about Dolan's success, I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment. This year, I would have hesitated a little... though, you know, the more I think of it the more it occurrs to me that I probably would only have hesitated for about five minutes. :box:

Go for it, those who can do so!!!!
:e2fairy:

spike

02-07-2006, 05:32 PM

That said, I am somewhat disappointed at the loud PA alums who are not following Phill Dolan's arbitration route. This looks like the best way to bring these bastards down, but too few are following the lead. Why is that? Once people are scammed, they are embarrassed. The scammer (and not just PA, but any con artist) depends on this.

Thank you to the PA authors who are brave enough to say, "I was taken."

PVish

02-07-2006, 06:29 PM

From the PAMB, here's part of response to White Raven's comment that PA bashers were parrots. The post vanished as I was copying, but at least I got some of it. This guy's book is coming out in the spring:

. . . PA is a publisher and anyone who doubts that just has to look at all the books that exist because PA had the courage and the generosity to put their money where their mouth is and paid to have an unknown author's work published. I've checked the industry standards and a PA book will stand up next to anyone's and do it proudly. If we have LS to thank for that, that's cool but PA could have chosen someone else to do the work but they didn't. PA has one of the industry's highest acclaimed printers and manufacturers providing our books and that too should be something we PA authors can be proud of and thank PA, our publisher, for. Nobody does better covers and the editing is as good as the author wants it to be.
Whereas a parrot simply imitates sounds, these PA bashers make up things, purposely distort the truth, and have even set about to create situations that they can then turn into an excuse to bad mouth PA. Well, I think that's just plain devious and I give these people no credibility whatsoever.
I think you insult the parrot when you even give these PA bashers the benefit of even a pea-sized brain. A parrot does so many entertaining and useful things with its brain and I see no value or justification whatsoever in anyone bashing PA or its authors.
I'm glad you started this thread. New authors need to know what they're dealing with when they hear from those who have an ax to grind and are willing to go to any length, including distroying their own credibility, to spew their hatred and falsehoods. . . .

Yep, "new authors need to know what they're dealing with," all right. It'll be interesting to see how his opinion changes when his book comes out.

Edited to add: I just checked back. The posts have reappeared!

keltora

02-07-2006, 06:38 PM

I continue to wonder how much it would affect PAs business if they simply shut down the message board.

The folks like Saundra are the ones that hurt me the most....obviously a talented and kind person who gets sucked into this abyss before she realizes what has happened.

The folks at Author House and Lulu don't make any reps about what their authors are getting into, much less giving false hopes about getting published.

I don't have a dog in the hunt...I am fortunate to be with a legitmate publisher and have never had the first hand PA experience.

That said, I am somewhat disappointed at the loud PA alums who are not following Phill Dolan's arbitration route. This looks like the best way to bring these bastards down, but too few are following the lead. Why is that?

It appears to me that PA wins not through strategy, but through the ambivalence of its authors. Too many sign up, get knocked down, and simply quietly go away.

I think that so many authors take the easy way to PA that they aren't going to fight after they realize what has happened. They simply choose to kinda sorta act like it never happened. This results in what appears to be four classes of PA authors:

1) Honeymooners-active on the PAMB, denial about their publisher, waiting on the first royalty check. Looking for ways to promote their book. These are the current "way to go" or "how to promote your book" folks at PAMB.

2) Early recognition- Realized what happened within the past year or so. Gathering up the broken dreams and attempting to determine what to do next. Determining what to do next. These are the newbies and some of the vocal regulars to this forum.

3) Moving on with success- Been the PA route, busted through to greater pastures. These are the published authors after PA.

4) Over it. Been there, done that. Tried the writing gig, now off to something else and might as well never been there. Book is in the drawer and never spoken of.

There is actually another group which is number 5. This is the very small group of PA authors who have a book or even more and are very happy with never selling a book but hanging around the PAMB with their friends. They are similar to Amway distributors who never sell anything or sign anybody up but like to go to the conventions to see their friends.

I would hope that more of the number 2 group would consider the arbitration action while they are still hot under the collar and before they morph into number 4. I think this is the Achlles heal of PA and hope more will investigate this.

Let us not forget the number fives consider PA to be a paragon of honesty, integrity, virtue, etc, who defend it to the max and refuse to hear any truth about it and who continue to sacrifice their books to PA (there is one of those living in my home town--she has four or five books with them now) for the greater wallets of The Three Stooges.

Those are the ones I worry about the most. They are just going to keep sinking in the PA mire, their heads disappearing under the muck, and they will still sing praises with their dying breath.

spike

02-07-2006, 07:16 PM

. . PA is a publisher and anyone who doubts that just has to look at all the books that exist because PA had the courage and the generosity to put their money where their mouth is and paid to have an unknown author's work published Publishing is more than just having books printed. Having a lot of books printed makes one a printer.

And what money does PA put out, in comparision to commercial publishers? How much courage does it take to print 2 copies and give the author a buck? How much courage does it take to print books only after the sale is made?

Please!

Maddog

02-07-2006, 08:42 PM

...No, I have no regrets about publishing my first book with PA. It has been a good experience and good larning process in general. I am happy about my book will be "Out there," BUT there are bad news too...at least for me. I have been in touch with two very good retailers and was told that after they checked what PA is charging for our books and SHIPPING, which in many cases is higher than the price of the book, they will never order my book since to make it profitable, they would have to sell it for $30.00 and NOBODY IS GOING TO BUY PAPERBACK BOOK for that price. Sadly... I have to agree.

I feel bad for this guy. And I'm surprised they haven't pulled his post yet!

orraloon

02-07-2006, 08:59 PM

Keltora says "Let us not forget the number fives consider PA to be a paragon of honesty, integrity, virtue, etc, who defend it to the max and refuse to hear any truth about it and who continue to sacrifice their books to PA"

Another category to consider might be the comfortably off trophy hunters who are simply pretending to be writers and can well afford to give money to a printer pretending to be a publisher so that they can be introduced to dinner party guests and the like as "a published author." They probably also revel in membership of the PA message board happy club because, along with other desperate housewives and bored husbands, they can post inane messages to one another knowing that their secret is safe and that anything nasty, like the truth, will be censored immediately. They fit Meiners, Clopper and Prather's scam like a glove.

James D. Macdonald

02-07-2006, 09:43 PM

Another category to consider might be the comfortably off trophy hunters who are simply pretending to be writers and can well afford to give money to a printer pretending to be a publisher so that they can be introduced to dinner party guests and the like as "a published author."

Those are the ones I refer to as playing the Published Author Fantasy Role-Playing Game.

Bonnie Gibson

02-07-2006, 09:51 PM

Yes Jim, I was in the top ten sellers for the month of September 2004 and was in the Book Review of the NYT where PA put an ad for their top sellers.

My royalty check was something like $26.95

OK people who are taking up for PA. TOP TEN $26.95?????????

What does that tell you of the other (at that time) 13,000?

I'm sure the supporters of PA will say that I didn't do my part of promoting the book.

Well, it's not MY job to promote the book, it's the publishers place but since PA is not a publisher but just a printer, it's up to me-- but I will NEVER push for another book to be sold if PA gets any money out of it. As far as I am concerned, I have no book. PA can take whatever they have and shove it... well, you know where.

PA = PRINTER

Nothing more. They will print your book, double the price, give you a 50% discount which is really the price the book should sell for, take your money and do N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Been there done that.

Don't give them your money.

Bonnie

James D. Macdonald

02-07-2006, 09:56 PM

I'm sure the supporters of PA will say that I didn't do my part of promoting the book.

I remember what you were posting on the PAMB at the time about your promotional efforts. You went above-and-beyond.

Here's the lesson for PA authors: You can do everything PA suggests, and do it perfectly, and it won't help.

DaveKuzminski

02-07-2006, 10:04 PM

OK people who are taking up for PA. TOP TEN $26.95?????????

Ouch! I got a royalty check larger than that just the other day for an ebook that's been out for six years.

ResearchGuy

02-07-2006, 10:10 PM

...PA = PRINTER

Nothing more. ...
Not even that, exactly. Printer's middleman. Lightning Source is the printer (as it is for many POD publishers). PA makes the connection, does some prep work, and takes a hefty markup (making up on the back end what undisguised subsidy publishers get on the front end).

--Ken

endless rewrite

02-07-2006, 10:27 PM

(PAMB) I (snipped) I agree with you too, ******** Not only do these hatemongers attempt to discredit PA but they attack PA authors and that's as equally contemptable.
I understand that out of the thousands of authors PA has help fullfilled a goal or maybe even a lifetime dream there is the possibility that someone may have a justified complaint. My experience has been that PA has always been there to address any question I had, quickly, courtiously, and effectively. I am confident that they would do this if I had a serious issue as well. Still, I realize that for some people this might not be enough and with thousands and thousands of contracts even some litigation may be involved occasionally. Unfortunately that's what happens in todays business world and I for one think having that option is a good thing for everyone. Right in our contracts PA grants every author the avenue in which to address serious issues and I really respect them for that. That being said, how many times has the mediation clause been invoked? Rarely,very very rarely! What more evidence could a writer need of the integrity of this firm?
I think PA authors should be very vocal when they encounter this abuse on the web, in blogs, and when dealing with retailers. I appreciate what PA has done for me and I have and will continue to recommend them to other writers I meet. My book isn't even out yet but I've been dealing with PA for many months now and I think my experience is relatively common. PA has exceeded every one of my expectations and I'm absolutely thrilled to be able to say I'm a published author. No one but PA could have made that possible as easily and quickly.
For those who have not had this experience with PA, I am sorry for you but I just don't see how you can be so obssessed and full of such hatred. I know I didn't have anything to do with your issue with PA and I don't deserve your abuse. I don't think anyone does, not even PA. Legitimate complaints have a contractual process in which they are addressed. We all have that explained quite clearly in the contract before we sign it. Once your issue has been addressed get on with your lives!

I've been keeping my beady eye on this charming chap. He seems to get angrier with each post and he's not even printed yet!

This guy needs a new category of his own. Any suggestions? He's not just PA happy clappy but really gunning for those dastardly, twisted hate mongers out there. You know who you are, you, yes you, ....sitting there, taking the time to type out rational, helpful, first hand experience and guidance to new authors. How do you sleep at night? How?

Tilly

02-07-2006, 10:48 PM

This is odd.
In two threads on the PA board, authors are looking at this site to try and work out if their books are selling:

www.buy.com (http://www.buy.com)

What's really weird is that a book ranked in the millions on Amazon is ranked just under 2000 on that site. Another that has no ranking on amazon is ranked around 60 000 on that site.

It looks like this site's ranking system is even more meaningless than the amazon rankings, but authors are latching onto it to give them some idea of sales. That's probably going to make things harder for them.

Stan Jozwiak

02-07-2006, 10:48 PM

Although I do not know for certain, I cannot go the arbitration route to have my contract with PA nullified because the arbitration hearing is held in Maryland. In order to file for an arbitration hearing, I think I have to request PA for a contract cancelation and because of clause 24 in the contract, PA would probably require me to purchase at least 100 copies of my book at a cost to me of about $2,000 before my release would be granted.
For me to take a day off work and fly up to Maryland would cost just me as much. Even if I won any kind of damages from PA, it would be meaningless. Winning damages is one thing, collecting damages won is one of the most frustrating and futile experiences one can ever undertake. I would have to file a restitution case in a Maryland Superior Court and I would not only prove the validity of the judgement I might have obtained from PA, but also prove that PA had assets to cover my judgement. It could take many trips to Maryland, and it would cost me a fortune.
Respectfully,
Stan Jozwiak

DaveKuzminski

02-07-2006, 10:51 PM

In order to file for an arbitration hearing, I think I have to request PA for a contract cancelation and because of clause 24 in the contract, PA would probably require me to purchase at least 100 copies of my book at a cost to me of about $2,000 before my release would be granted.

What does your clause 24 state? Is it the same one as is shown on the other thread containing the PA contract at URL http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21345? If so, they can't require you to purchase anything. It states only that they have to OFFER you that opportunity. You don't have to accept.

Tilly

02-07-2006, 10:58 PM

DaveKuzminski

02-07-2006, 10:59 PM

If there was a class-action arbitration, would all the authors have to go to Maryland?
Phil Dolan just won his case and mentioned that a class-action arbitration was possible on the Mindsight Forums:

http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?lm=1138905566&file=/3831/6443.html

I think the only way to find out is to inquire. Worst you'll do is tire out a few pixels sending emails. They're strong, though. They'll get over it.

rekirts

02-07-2006, 11:43 PM

(PAMB)
I've been keeping my beady eye on this charming chap. He seems to get angrier with each post and he's not even printed yet!

This guy needs a new category of his own. Any suggestions? He's not just PA happy clappy but really gunning for those dastardly, twisted hate mongers out there. You know who you are, you, yes you, ....sitting there, taking the time to type out rational, helpful, first hand experience and guidance to new authors. How do you sleep at night? How?

How about the If I Get Angry Enough The Truth Can't Find Me category.

James D. Macdonald

02-08-2006, 12:07 AM

"My book isn't even out...."

That's the money quote. Let's see how he feels a year after his book comes out.

BeeBomb

02-08-2006, 12:19 AM

Tilly, you are so right...especially when the royalty checks do not add up to more than a few pennies on the dollar. They will be wondering what happened when those statistics, they so eagerly view and salivate thinking of royalties, don't add up! Rankings don't mean squat unless you are continually at a very low number...for a very long time...never rising toward infinity. Poo! Even if you do sell books (one at a time...one a month) forget the royalties...you won't get them anyway.

Bee

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-08-2006, 12:45 AM

Hallo, what have we here?

http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/02/more-on-publish-america.html

Sparhawk

02-08-2006, 01:19 AM

Not even that, exactly. Printer's middleman. Lightning Source is the printer (as it is for many POD publishers). PA makes the connection, does some prep work, and takes a hefty markup (making up on the back end what undisguised subsidy publishers get on the front end).

--Ken

Well, they make great book covers.......... BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !! :ROFL: OK I knew I couldn't type that without laughing.

Jcomp

02-08-2006, 01:20 AM

Nexusman

02-08-2006, 01:34 AM

The fact that the dude from PAMB even mentions that PA has "thousands and thousands" of authors should be a warning sign to him, shouldn't it? How many legitimate publishers are actively working with "thousands" of authors, much less "thousands and thousands?"

And furthermore, even if PA did legitimately publicize their books (aside from e-cards that exist for the sole purpose of their author sending them to family and friends as guilt-trips and "Told ya sos," and possibly to harvest e-mail addresses to spam to) how much money would they be able to sink into each one?

-Nick

James D. Macdonald

02-08-2006, 02:16 AM

Winning damages is one thing, collecting damages won is one of the most frustrating and futile experiences one can ever undertake.

PA paid Phil Dolan without a whimper.

Christine N.

02-08-2006, 02:27 AM

And they also made him sign an non-discolsure agreement. Par for the course from PA, they don't want the amount getting out. Regardless, Phil did win, and he got money.

That's all you need to know. Encycolpedia Brittania sued, and they got money too.

Come on, folks, get some of that money you siphoned over to them back! Even if you break even on the trip and expenses (although if you win, I have a feeling you'd be reimbursed) it'd be totally worth it - wouldn't it?

Hey, anybody live in MD can lend out some arbitrators crash space?

Ilovepensandpaper

02-08-2006, 05:19 AM

That's a brilliant and brave website, IMO. I just hope thousands of people see it before signing their work away to PA.
Lucia,
I hope a lot of people will take a look too. I am working on how to go about doing that...Maybe go to the PA site, lol. I dunno...

Christine N.

02-08-2006, 05:49 AM

Ack. I mean "Lend out some crash space to arbitrators?"

Teach me to proofread, won't it?

Nexusman

02-08-2006, 06:28 AM

Ack. I mean "Lend out some crash space to arbitrators?"

Teach me to proofread, won't it?

It's still more proofreading than PA does. Let's play the fun "PA edit" game:

"Lendout, somec rash sp@ce two arbitratrators?"

-Nick

NicoleJLeBoeuf

02-08-2006, 06:55 AM

PA paid Phil Dolan without a whimper.Oh, I'm sure they whimpered. I bet they cried in their coffee while the pen hovered above the check. It's the shock of signing the check on the front, you see. But in any case, they didn't let the whimpering delay the payment, and that's what matters.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-08-2006, 10:29 AM

I am looking for a 'nice' name for my anti-PublishAmerica site. I haven't come up with any beyond 'Don't Assassinate Your Career - No On PublishAmerica' or 'PublishAmerica-Don't Think So'. Maybe 'PublishAmerica? Keep your day job!'. I am quickly fazing out the promotion of my book beyond word of mouth. I want to do well with this website, and heal my crushed/angered spirit. I want to start to hopefully have this mistake not appear as large.
Someone emailed me yesterday. She noticed that one has to do all the promotion with PA, but she told me that my work was worth noting since I worked hard on it (and her on hers). Everyone should know about my book. Part of me wants people to know about it because I worked on it, but I really don't want PA getting money. It would be different if I knew what I was in for as far as a POD was concerned and all (if I actually WANTED a POD). Has anyone tackled this problem? Geez, I feel like I am starting from scratch again in some ways. I can always say I got 'published', you know, to get my foot in the door...

JennaGlatzer

02-08-2006, 11:31 AM

Part of me wants people to know about it because I worked on it, but I really don't want PA getting money. It would be different if I knew what I was in for as far as a POD was concerned and all (if I actually WANTED a POD). Has anyone tackled this problem?

My heart hurts for you. I think it must be the toughest thing a writer could ever do, and I'm always in awe when PA authors decide it's more important to warn others than it is to promote their own books... so they take down the book pages or even discourage people from buying the books. I don't know if I'd have the strength to do it, and I admire the heck out of those who do.

I've also watched many, many authors here go through what you're going through right now.

Lurkers, think of how absurd this is. Have you ever heard of any author dealing with the moral quandary of deciding whether or not to continue promoting their books because they didn't want to line Simon & Schuster's pockets? Or Random House's? Or Penguin Putnam's? "Don't buy my book" is one of the weirdest phrases you could ever hear from an author... I think I've never heard it from anyone except PublishAmerica authors.

AnnaWhite

02-08-2006, 02:42 PM

Although I do not know for certain, I cannot go the arbitration route to have my contract with PA nullified because the arbitration hearing is held in Maryland.
I think that's true about the arbitration having to be in Maryland.

In order to file for an arbitration hearing, I think I have to request PA for a contract cancelation and because of clause 24 in the contract, PA would probably require me to purchase at least 100 copies of my book at a cost to me of about $2,000 before my release would be granted.
I don't think PA does that any more when a contract is cancelled, because in the past somebody proved that, as a POD printer, PA should not have 100 copies of a book on hand. So, asking an author to buy 100 copies, when a contract is reverted, is plainly fraudulent. Does anybody remember the details?

Even if I won any kind of damages from PA, it would be meaningless.
Unfortunately, the site that had the original details about Dolan's case was pulled a while back, and I didn't get around to copy/paste it before it went. I have a figure stuck in my memory, though, that the amount of damages that Dolan asked for amounted to around $7,000. I read, somewhere, that Dolan was very happy with the Award he received, that it was in fact higher than he expected, and that he was very disappointed that he could not publicise it (due to the confidentiality clause attached to it).

I also seem to remember him mentioning how much it cost him to take the case to arbitration. I think he said it was around $1,000. It should be noted, however, that he represented himself in court on his own, without a lawyer. It was just him against PA's lawyer and Meiners.

Aconite

02-08-2006, 03:25 PM

I have a figure stuck in my memory, though, that the amount of damages that Dolan asked for amounted to around $7,000. Lucia, I seem to remember that it was much higher--well into five figures. (Among other things, PA's lawyer forgot to contest the amount Dolan was claiming in damages. It was a substantial amount. If that's what Dolan was awarded, I'm sure he's very happy.)

James D. Macdonald

02-08-2006, 05:56 PM

I don't think PA does that any more when a contract is cancelled, because in the past somebody proved that, as a POD printer, PA should not have 100 copies of a book on hand. So, asking an author to buy 100 copies, when a contract is reverted, is plainly fraudulent. Does anybody remember the details?

That was in this thread: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=666

I've added it to the opening messages in this thread so that newcomers can find it easily.

James D. Macdonald

02-08-2006, 06:36 PM

If memory serves, the amount Phil won through arbitration was lots higher than $7K, though the exact amount hasn't been disclosed. (That isn't at PA's request, though -- that's the way arbitration works. The exact dollar amounts are confidential. That's one of the reasons a company would agree to arbitration to start with.)

All of Phil's expenses, except travel to and from Maryland, were paid by PA. The monetary award covered that and more besides.

As to what would have happened if PA didn't pay ... all Phil would have had to have done was walk down to his local courthouse and gotten a court order. He'd send that to PA's local sherriff, and have that worthy get the money.

The arbitration specified significant monthly interest on the award, and a heavy (three or four figures) per-day liability for late payment. As a result, PA not only paid, they paid early.

I'm told Larry signed the check himself.

Too bad if Larry had to sell one of his SUVs to cover royalties this month.

Christine N.

02-08-2006, 07:01 PM

And some people just don't get it even if they'be been hit with a clue stick...

I was just surfing when I bumped into the Wikipedia story of PA. It left me wondering , how far reliable is the information

Hmmm... so all of Wikipedia might be useful, except stuff you don't want to know about? It really is just a place where people put in information, but the WP people, unlike PA, have standards.

spike

02-08-2006, 07:22 PM

And some people just don't get it even if they'be been hit with a clue stick...

Quote:
I was just surfing when I bumped into the Wikipedia story of PA. It left me wondering , how far reliable is the information

Hmmm... so all of Wikipedia might be useful, except stuff you don't want to know about? It really is just a place where people put in information, but the WP people, unlike PA, have standards.

"how far reliable"? What does that mean? I'm not one to pick on people's typing or spelling skills. I can usually figure out what word they were trying to type.

But not this one.

Bonnie Gibson

02-08-2006, 07:43 PM

I remember what you were posting on the PAMB at the time about your promotional efforts. You went above-and-beyond.

Here's the lesson for PA authors: You can do everything PA suggests, and do it perfectly, and it won't help.

Exactly Jim. I must have been doing something because I was in the top ten sellers but unfortunately the top ten didn't mean much, huh?
Top ten at PA = One Happy Meal at Micky Dee's.

You know, I understand these people who are in the newlywed stages; I was there once. It will wear off very quickly. They'll soon have to face facts as I and a lot more have done. It's just too bad they have to go through it all.

But if they won't listen, what can you do?

Bonnie

Tilly

02-08-2006, 07:43 PM

James: it is really not very complicated. Sales rankings on online vendors sites mean nothing, bupkiss. At best they indicate that those sites have a computer program running that reacts to certain inputs. Those inputs may be sales, but then again they may not be sales at all. It all depends on how the vendor has set up his computer program. We are told that some allow ranking numbers to jump back and forth, just for the heck of it.
As a rule of thumb online vendors have zero books in stock. They get their cues from Ingram's printing company Lightning Source. If Lightning Source says that a book is available for ordering, then that's what the online vendor will say, too. If it says that a book is actually in stock, it's typically a half-truth as the book does not exist yet. It is in imaginary, or "virtual", stock, and will not be printed until the vendor has a firm order.
When Amazon says, "Hurry, we have only one more copy left," it is poetic license, a gimmick. Usually they have zero copies on their shelves, but they are safe in the knowledge that when someone buys that book, Lightning Source will print and ship it for Amazon within 24 hours. That's why they, and others such as Buy.com, use every trick in the book to push shoppers towards the check-out line. Fluffy sales rankings are part of it. They say a lot about Amazon and Buy.com. They say little or nothing about your book's sales.

Wow, misinfocenter is being patronising today. I am shocked. :rolleyes:

I'm surprised at their willingness to let the author know that his sales ranking on that site doesn't mean a lot of books sold. But then, I suppose they're worried about PA authors looking hard at those Amazon rankings in their millions. Or no Amazon ranking at all.
The book 'will not be printed until the vendor has a firm order' only applies to POD books.
Clearly Amazon and Buy.com will do anything to get your money, unlike good, honest PA.:ROFL:

Tilly

02-08-2006, 08:01 PM

The author who got the above sweet response probably incurred their wrath for his previous post:

(snip) I did remit correspondence to Publish America regarding my sales ranking on Buy.Com and did receive two responses in which I felt were semi-confusing.

The first stating, "Although sales rankings on sites such as Amazon.com and BN.com may suddenly jump from a lower listing to a higher one, the ranking in no way accurately reflects sales. As little as one book sale may make the rank jump significantly. We understand that this may seem confusing, but the method use to determine a book's rank is based on several factors not merely the number of sales. Have a good day."

The second email read, "Thank you for your e-mail, and congratulations on your wonderful news. Please keep us posted on any future endeavors or developments with your title. Have a great day."

Generally, I have always tried to use common sense and upon reading the Publish America responses, I felt that the first response was or appeared to be an error. (PA Message board please step in if need be) I did note that it did not completely answer the questions/comments that I initially sent; which indicated my wanting to be considered for a spot or feature on the Publish America Home Page, mainly due to what I believed at the time, was seeing my book's sales ranking climb.

One of the things that I do know about Buy.Com, is that they are selling many of their titles ten percent less than many other booksellers. In order to find my specific position, I merely went to the Buy.com website and brought up the Suspense section. When I scrolled down the first page--I was taken back! (snip)

PA's two comments together are confusing.

Christine N.

02-08-2006, 08:05 PM

I assume Infomonster is only explaining how PA works re: Amazon, etc... because most non-POD publishers do indeed have books stocked with Amazon at their warehouse. Or at the very least, with the publisher or wholesaler, like Baker & Taylor. There is no 'wait for the book to be printed' with most commercial publishers.

Well, we are talking about POD, and not POD, right?

Berry

02-08-2006, 08:07 PM

Misinfocenter is dead wrong as usual. I interviewed for a job at Amazon this summer, which I ultimately didn't get, alas. But one of the people I talked to was a programmer who was responsible for a program that mines sales data for trends and buying patterns, so that they can STOCK ENOUGH BOOKS to fulfill orders. The computational problems in poring through gigabytes of data to decide how many Agatha Christie novels to stock are interesting but irrelevant here. The bottom line is:

They have ENORMOUS warehouses full of books ready to sell. They showed me pictures.

If you go look at job openings they have many, many locations hiring warehouse and fulfillment staff.

PA: Wrong again.

Maddog

02-08-2006, 08:24 PM

"Bupkiss"?? On the public message board? WTF?

Gravity

02-08-2006, 08:36 PM

"Bupkiss"?? On the public message board? WTF?

That's our Larry: a class act all the way.

Sparhawk

02-08-2006, 08:59 PM

Publish America. We treat our authors the old fashined way, we screw 'em!

Man, I never get tired of seeing infocenter acting all pompous. I feel so bad for those trapped in PAvidia. I wonder if these posts and e-mails are deliberatly designed to be degrading and humiliating in order to discourage and possibly even frighten the newbies into NOT asking anything or inquiring about anything. It seems that the tone and the wording are deliberatly phrased to squash one's self-esteem.

JMO though.

-Sparhawk

Sher2

02-08-2006, 09:24 PM

"Bupkiss"?? On the public message board? WTF?
They may have been going for "bupkis." Of course, they misspelled it. What else is new? :roll:

Bupkis: Etymology
Yiddish: (large) beans

Noun
bupkis, bupkes, bobkes, bubkes, bopkes

absolutely nothing; nothing of value, signifcance, or substance
We searched for hours and found bupkis.
Related terms
diddly
diddlysquat
peanuts
squat
zilch

Nexusman

02-08-2006, 09:56 PM

"Bupkiss"?? On the public message board? WTF?

Perhaps they were implying "buttkiss."

-Nick

Memphis Ed

02-08-2006, 10:01 PM

Publish America. We treat our authors the old fashined way, we screw 'em!

I love this quote.

The author in question is going to get a couple of tremendous shocks.

First of all, I think he has mis-read the listing he refers to. Second, he is dreaming of a huge royalty check.

He is going to get the first shock soon when he gets the tiny check. That said, he'll buy the story that "this royalty statement doesn't include the purchases made that haven't been paid". He'll hang for the next period, get busted with his small payment, and either move on or join the ex-PAers somewhere else.

So the circle of life moves forward....

James D. Macdonald

02-08-2006, 10:08 PM

I wonder if these posts and e-mails are deliberatly designed to be degrading and humiliating in order to discourage and possibly even frighten the newbies into NOT asking anything or inquiring about anything.

Yes. That's it exactly.

See http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=169274&postcount=17698 for a breakdown of PA's standard letter to their authors.

Aconite

02-08-2006, 10:34 PM

See http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=169274&postcount=17698 for a breakdown of PA's standard letter to their authors.It's a very good analysis.

Short form: "You're wrong, you're alone, you're bad, you're a loser, and we can hurt you if you make us mad."

NancyMehl

02-08-2006, 11:20 PM

I hope our "mods" will allow this post to stay in the PA thread, because I am sending this out to PA authors who are discouraged - who wonder if they can overcome the PA stigma.

My first book was printed by PA. I resold that one and a couple of other books to small publishers.

Today...my agent called. I've been offered a contract for a new mystery series by a major Inspirational publisher. Yes, the advance is more than a stinkin' dollar. A lot more. And my book will immediately become a book club selection.

Yes Virginia, there is life after PA.

NEVER GIVE UP!

Nancy

Jean Marie

02-08-2006, 11:54 PM

I thank you, Nancy and major congratulations!!!!!!!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotepartyguy.gif

You're an inspiration to me to keep on going and to never, ever lose hope.

Your message says that to do otherwise would allow the Poison A$$es to win. Not going to happen as long as I'm breathing. Which is why I will continue to query out my book until I get a yes. And it is also why I will keep writing.

Gravity

02-09-2006, 12:11 AM

Atomic Bear

02-09-2006, 03:20 AM

I am looking for a 'nice' name for my anti-PublishAmerica site.

One thing to be carefull about is letting the PA people know what your domain will be called. It is common practice for companys to buy up negative domain names so no one can use them. So don't let PA know what it is till you have secured it.

this is what a search brought up so far: http://www.whois.net/search.cgi2?str=publishamerica

Tilly

02-09-2006, 03:28 AM

Nexusman

02-09-2006, 03:35 AM

Congratulations Nancy!!:hooray::snoopy:

I think one of the reasons PA so spitefully keeps authors tied to a seven year contract it cannot profit from is because Larry Clopper failed where Nancy just succeeded. He couldn't get his books published.* It must really get to him when an author achieves the very thing he couldn't.

*Associated Press article
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05022/446283.stm

Which is where he gets the very idea: "If I can't be a sucessful published author, I won't let anyone else." PA's very existence is only proof of the old adage misery loves company applied to Clopper.

-Nick

tarra74

02-09-2006, 03:51 AM

NancyMehl

02-09-2006, 05:56 AM

Thanks, everyone.

I know how devastating it is to find out that PA isn't a reputable publisher. You go from an incredible high to a mind-numbing low. You doubt yourself as a writer. The thought that maybe you don't have what it takes follows you around like bad body odor.

But...PA doesn't have to define you unless you let it. They're only as big as allow them to be.

Truthfully, in the scheme of things, they're a bump in the road.

Nancy

Sheryl Nantus

02-09-2006, 05:57 AM

DamaNegra

02-09-2006, 06:08 AM

From the article linked to above:

Wheeler, a songwriter known for such hits as the Johnny Cash-June Carter Cash duet "Jackson," and the Kingston Trio's "The Reverend Mr. Black," said he was his own biggest customer. Still, he plans to release another book through PublishAmerica largely because he doesn't have to pay.

That's one of the worst fallacies I've ever heard. 'I spent lots and lots of money buying my books, but I'll publish with them again because I don't have to pay'.

I really wonder how these authors manage to trick themselves into actually believing that sentence.

Nexusman

02-09-2006, 07:01 AM

the thread's on the PAMB:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10910

in a nutshell, the author's perturbed because she got a somewhat negative review from her local paper - the reviewer rightfully nailed PA for what it is, and gave a rather harsh review of the memoir. But the PA author seems to have gotten over it and moved on...

... at least until the other PA authors got ahold of it. Now it's "bash the reviewer" time.

lurkers - THIS is why you can't get a decent review for love nor money. NO ONE wants to get this sort of immature reaction for giving a PA book a honest review. Do you think that Random House authors gang up on book reviewers when one of them gets a less than stellar review?

sheesh.

:Shrug:

Wow, someone's got a major case of "I don't believe you because you didn't say what I wanted to hear" syndrome.

Also, as for authors of other publishers ganging up (I may be revealing my ignorance here) but do their publishers even provide message forums with threads such as "Marketing Ploys" available? Furthermore, would another author even care if someone else got a less than favorable review so long as their own was doing well?

-Nick

Canada James

02-09-2006, 07:13 AM

Hmmm... so all of Wikipedia might be useful, except stuff you don't want to know about? It really is just a place where people put in information, but the WP people, unlike PA, have standards.

I must admit that I'd never trust WP as a reliable source. I've seen enough misinformation on topics that I could verify to turn me sceptic.

It gives me shivers when people quote WP as a source for their opinions on matters.

Canada James

mdin

02-09-2006, 07:18 AM

Most good wiki articles will cite non-wiki sources that you can actually go to and look at.

Here's the review of that book:

http://www.courierpub.com/articles/2006/02/02/barharbortimes/arts_and_entertainment/e2nightmares.txt

spike

02-09-2006, 07:46 AM

I must admit that I'd never trust WP as a reliable source. I've seen enough misinformation on topics that I could verify to turn me sceptic.

It gives me shivers when people quote WP as a source for their opinions on matters.

Canada James

I wouldn't take WP as gospel, but they are quick to correct items. I work in the school district for the 3rd largest city in my state. One of our darling students wrote some obscene comments and within 20 minutes, WP had blocked out IP addy.

It took weeks and some appologizing, but now our staff can post there, student machines are still blocked and can only read.

ResearchGuy

02-09-2006, 07:55 AM

...Here's the review of that book:

http://www.courierpub.com/articles/2006/02/02/barharbortimes/arts_and_entertainment/e2nightmares.txt
IMHO, the author of the book should have thanked the reviewer. That is a lot of column inches and on the whole, a review that could gather readers. (And a review that could help the author of the book to see how to make it significantly better.)

Also IMHO, the reviewer should have edited out the part about PublishAmerica and stuck to just reviewing the book. The review itself could have been tightened up a bit, as it looks to be one rewrite short of finished.

--Ken

rekirts

02-09-2006, 08:52 AM

Good grief! So the review wasn't glowing. It will probably sell books. I'd be fine with a review like that.

When PA sends out the contracts do they also send a chip to stick on the shoulder?

James D. Macdonald

02-09-2006, 08:56 AM

It will probably sell books.

It may not sell that many books. First, the books won't be in bookstores (the way it usually works -- someone reads a review, then sees the book on the shelf). With the 5% discount bookstores may not even special order it. People might go to Amazon ... but that requires having a computer, having a 'net connection, having a credit card, trusting the credit card on the internet, searching for the book, and waiting a couple of weeks.

Martin J Ross

02-09-2006, 09:34 AM

Good grief! So the review wasn't glowing. It will probably sell books. I'd be fine with a review like that.

When PA sends out the contracts do they also send a chip to stick on the shoulder?

It is also sent with a set of delux blinders with the rose colored glasses attachment, and new for this season, an all new updated audio book titled "If it doesn't sell, it's your own fault" and the "PA is great, we took a chance on you" handbook to keep them in the proper frame of mind.

And as a special offer to anyone who sends in a second book, we will also ship to you the new marketing plan "If you buy more of your new book, it will be a bigger hit then the first one" to help your book become the "best seller" we know it can be. Which includes such timeless classics as "To be our next best seller, you must buy buy buy" and "Buying books during royalties specials is an easy way to make your book a best seller, and make money too".

That may seem kind of funny, and joke like, but seems to be what they really do, except give them anything for free of course.

Remember, when you buy books because you "will get royalties on any book you buy with the next 2 days" you are essentially moving your money from one pocket to the other, and dropping most of it in between.

Ilovepensandpaper

02-09-2006, 09:44 AM

spike

02-09-2006, 02:42 PM

IMHO, the author of the book should have thanked the reviewer. That is a lot of column inches and on the whole, a review that could gather readers. (And a review that could help the author of the book to see how to make it significantly better.)

Also IMHO, the reviewer should have edited out the part about PublishAmerica and stuck to just reviewing the book. The review itself could have been tightened up a bit, as it looks to be one rewrite short of finished.

--Ken

Ken, I usually agree with you, but not this time. I like to know if a book is from a vanity press (or the like).

Tilly

02-09-2006, 04:26 PM

The author who got the review seemed close to getting something positive out of it, even thinking about beta readers for her second book:

You know the more I read the review the more I feel she maybe is not to far off. I did make bad choices and maybe her saying that upset me. You are right, she did compliment me on my writing style and gave me credit for doing good now.

Thanks for checking it out for me and giving your opinion. I think when I finish my second book that I will ask everyone that I can to read it for opinions.

And then others weighed in with odd ideas (like the reviewer didn't really mean the very specific criticisms she made about the book, it's some kind of personal vendetta) that are probably a lot easier for the author to hear right now.

Christine N.

02-09-2006, 04:52 PM

Yeah, the reviewer personally hates PA. Right. Whatever. And I would agree with you, CJ, that the Wiki isn't the end all be all of information, but I've found lots of good, outside credentialed information there. Wiki takes the time to respond to people too... just ask Miranda :) She wanted that article removed, and wiki said no way.

Tilly

02-09-2006, 04:53 PM

The author who was doing well in the buy.com rankings heard back from the company.

Congratulations on your sales ranking! That is certainly an honor. As far as 'sales ranking' is concerned on our website, it is calculated based on number of orders -- i.e. the book with the largest number of orders receives the lowest rank, etc. so you should be particularly pleased with your results on our site considering the size of our catalog.

Regards,

Doug Marrs
V.P, Sales & Merchandising
Entertainment & Leisure
Buy.com
85 Enterprise, Suite 100
Aliso Viejo, Ca 92656

I'm guessing that hovering around the 50,000 mark there is the equivalent to millions at Amazon. I can't find books ranked much lower than that on the site, and quite a few PA books have that sort of ranking.

Perhaps a few sales in rapid succession might account for this author being around 2000. I'm pretty certain it doesn't mean what the author seems to think it means, that his is book is selling well. It's at over one and a half million at Amazon.

SC Harrison

02-09-2006, 05:20 PM

Also IMHO, the reviewer should have edited out the part about PublishAmerica and stuck to just reviewing the book. The review itself could have been tightened up a bit, as it looks to be one rewrite short of finished.

--Ken

My first reaction was to agree with you about leaving the PA part out, but then I reread the article. The part about PA comes right after the initial slap in the face, so it kind of explains to the reader how the book got published in the first place.

As far as the review itself, it will probably garner more sales than a straight-up good one, because he used the word "voyeur" and mentioned knowing the family.

ByGrace

02-09-2006, 05:29 PM

Being under contract with Publish America is like being a skier going downhill on an obstacle course. Those flags keep popping up when you least expect it. Warning flags that something isn't right.

I managed to acquire some reviews from legitimate sources like The Historical Fiction Review, Copperfield Review, Crystal's Reviews, Denise's Pieces, and others. I queried these reviewers, and they solicited PA for review copies, which they did get. However, the big blow was when The Historical Novel Society initially agreed to do a review, was granted a copy, but then decided not to do a review. They sent me an email and said they had decided not to review Publish America books because in the past the books they did look at were poorly edited, and over priced for the consumer. I was disappointed, believe me. A favorable review with the HNS would have helped my efforts.

For all the great reviews I received they did not help my book sales. I am convinced it was due to the high book prices and the fact people could not get them in bookstores.

Okay, so I hit those flags hard and I finally saw PA for what they are. I decided I will not stay at the bottom of the hill defeated. I'm back in the ski lift working my way back up the hill.

Authors, do not give up on your writing due to your experience with Publish America. You will let them win if you do. If there is ever a company in the world that is not author friendly it is PA.

By the way, I think there are a lot more writers who are seeking releases from their contracts than we realize. This week another one emailed me to tell me she was seeking a release. She is furious that PA replied to her email they would ignore her certified letter. Another author emailed me to say she received a tax statement from PA saying she earned over $20 in royalites in 05. Her contract was terminated in early 2004. Now that just doesn't seem right.

Rambling

02-09-2006, 05:32 PM

Since www.buy.com (http://www.buy.com/) allows you to sort by list price, I did an unscientific study(see rawish data below)

Nine most expensive publishers:
1. Indypublish.com (SO)
2. iUniverse/ Writers club press / Writer's showcase press/ backinprint (S)
3. PublishAmerica (T)
4. 1stBooks Library/ Authorhouse (SO)
5. Fredonia books (T)
6. Lulu Press (SO)
7. XLibris (S)
8. Dell Publishing Company (T)
9. Booklocker.com (S)

(S) - represents itself as self-publishers
(T) - represents itself as traditional/commercial
(O) - author sets own price
(?) - Couldn't find website

I can't comment on Fredonia Books as I've never heard of them. Dell only has two 'expensive' books - special cases perhaps. So that's six POD self-publishers and... PublishAmerica. Interesting company it keeps!

I did a search on www.buy.com (http://www.buy.com/) on 'paperback fiction', sorted by price. Excluding non-fiction books, audio books, anthologies and book sets, the publishers mentioned on:

page 1: indypublish.com
Page 2-3: nonfiction.
Page 4: backinPrint.com, indypublish.com, iUniverse
Page 5: PublishAmerica, Lulu, 1st Books library(sic)
Page 6: Lulu, Indypublish.com, firstbooks library (sic)
Page 7: IndyPublish.com, Writers club press
Page 8: PublishAmerica, AmErica, Lulu, Writers club press, iUniverse, Writer's Showcase Press
Page 9: Writers club press, backinprint.com
Page 10: Dodo Press, Writers club press, iUniverse, 1stBooks Library, AuthorHouse
Page 11: PublishAmerica, AmErica, Fredonia books (NL)
Page 12: Writers club press, PublishAmerica, Fredonia books(NL), AmErica, iUniverse, 1stBooks Library, indypublish.com
Page 13: Writers club press, iUniverse, Wildside press,
Page 14: iUniverse, Writers club press, iUniverse, 1stBooks Library, Aspect
Page 15: Indypublish.com, iUniverse, Writers club Press, Writer's showcase press, Piercemore Books
Page 16: Backinprint.com, Writers club Press, 1stBooks Library, Authorhouse, Dell Publishing Company
Page 17: 1stBooks Library, Authorhouse, Indypublish, Writers club Press, backinprint.com, iUniverse.
Page 18: xLibris corporation, 1stBooks Library
Page 19: Lulu, PublishAmerica
Page 20: PublishAmerica, Dream13, Fredonia Books (NL), AmErica
Page 21: Fredonia Books (NL), PublishAmerica, iUniverse, AmErica
Page 22: AmErica, Authors Choice Press, Writer's club press, PublishAmerica, Fredonia Books (NL)
Page 23: AmErica, Backinprint.com, Fredonia Books (NL) , PublishAmerica, Writers club press
Page 24: PublishAmerica, Fredonia Books (NL) , iUniverse, AmErica, 1stBooks Library, Bantam Books, Dell Publishing Company, Spectra, XLibris corportation
Page 25: XLibris corportation, iUniverse, 1stBooks Library, Vertigo
Page 26: Writers club Press, iUniverse, backinprint.com, Authorhouse, 1stBooks Library
Page 27: xlibris corporation, 1stBooks library, Lulu press
Page 28: Booklocker.com, Dandelion Enterprises, backinprint.com, writers Club Press, Fredonia Books (NL) , iUniverse, Writer's showcase press, AmErica
Page 29: backinprint.com, Writers Club Press, 1stBooks library, lulu, Authorhouse, Hats Off Books.
(that's the top 750 most expensive books in 8211)

I'm excluding all publishers who only have one book appear - Dodo Press, wildside press, Piercemore Books, Dream13, Bantam, Spectra, Vertigo, Hats Off Books.

James D. Macdonald

02-09-2006, 05:55 PM

"Backinprint" is a division of iUniverse.

DaveKuzminski

02-09-2006, 05:59 PM

Another author emailed me to say she received a tax statement from PA saying she earned over $20 in royalites in 05. Her contract was terminated in early 2004. Now that just doesn't seem right.

It would be interesting to know if she also received checks for those royalties.

ResearchGuy

02-09-2006, 08:53 PM

Ken, I usually agree with you, but not this time. I like to know if a book is from a vanity press (or the like).
Sure, but naming and concisely characterizing the publisher ("print-on-demand vanity publisher PublishAmerica") alongside the other publication info. (title, author, date, and price) would have sufficed, IMHO. I just thought it stuck out like a sore thumb, better left for a separate article specifically on PublishAmerica. Seemed to be a tacky intrusion.

--Ken

CaoPaux

02-09-2006, 09:08 PM

I tend to agree. I'd've rearranged it so it read as review, comments on quality of book/publisher, then positive final paragraph regarding hopes for next book. But it's a lot more than most PAers receive, even from their local papers. Ah, well.

DaveKuzminski

02-09-2006, 09:39 PM

Christine N.

02-09-2006, 09:39 PM

It did kind of jump out at me too, but I admit I got a sick kind of pleasure from it. Nothing against the author, but it seems that the word is getting out about PA and the media aren't so in the dark anymore.

But I agree it probably was better left off. Or at least not made such a big deal of.

And what does that tell you, PA lurkers? How many reviews for other "Traditional, royalty-paying" publishers include an explanation of their activities? I don't usually see publisher information in reviews from Random House, or even a small publisher like Winterwolf or Behler. Why is that?

ByGrace

02-09-2006, 11:00 PM

It would be interesting to know if she also received checks for those royalties.

She told me she had not received a check.

DaveKuzminski

02-09-2006, 11:24 PM

She should consider taking PA into arbitration or even get a lawyer to take them to court.

Duncan J Macdonald

02-09-2006, 11:29 PM

She should consider taking PA into arbitration or even get a lawyer to take them to court.I am not a lawyer, nor a tax lawyer, nor an accoutant, nor trained in the esoteric and mystical arts of the IRS.
That being said, however, I would certainly bring the matter to the attention of the IRS. "Dear IRS, I have received a 1099 reporting income which I never received. Could you advise me as to which line I report the income on, and on which line I report the loss?"

DeePower

02-09-2006, 11:31 PM

Just wondering.

If an employee takes money from a company - it is considered a crime - embezzlement.

If a company doesn't pay money it owes is that considered a crime? I'm not talking about a one time mishap, a mistake through carelessness or bad book keeping, the inability to pay, or refusal to pay because of a disagreement in the amount owed. I'm talking about intentionally not paying money the company knows it owes on a consistent and regular basis.

Dee

MMo

02-09-2006, 11:36 PM

She told me she had not received a check.

Grace, if she received an IRS 1099 from PA for money she did not receive, she needs to contact her accountant for the best way to report this (and deduct it) on her tax return; she also needs to report this to the IRS.

Mo

Aconite

02-10-2006, 12:00 AM

Oh, yes, definitely talk to the IRS. It can be hard to get law-enforcement officials interested in literary crimes, because they usually don't understand the complexities of the situation.

For the IRS, on the other hand, the issue is very simple: They're not getting their money. They'll take an interest, all right. Especially if they get calls from several people about the same company (and we know they've been contacted about PA already).

Tilly

02-10-2006, 12:36 AM

Another author emailed me to say she received a tax statement from PA saying she earned over $20 in royalites in 05. Her contract was terminated in early 2004. Now that just doesn't seem right.

How likely is it that those books were in a warehouse somewhere? That's not one or two books. Those may have been printed after the contract termination.

DaveKuzminski

02-10-2006, 12:40 AM

How likely is it that those books were in a warehouse somewhere? That's not one or two books. Those may have been printed after the contract termination.

Very unlikely. PA's books are produced as print on demand. They're not going to pay for books to be produced that have no buyer yet. Also, the printers stated they couldn't provide storage for any books without a constant demand because it would cost them under tax laws to have those on hand. That's why it's almost certain that the books were produced after the contract was terminated and means that PA and LS did not have the right to produce those.

allenparker

02-10-2006, 01:15 AM

Very unlikely. PA's books are produced as print on demand.

snipped for bervity

It could be that the books were shelved somewhere. In '02, 03' and '04, Ingrams, Amazon, and BN were shelving a couple of copies of several PA books.

A quick check of my first book showed 3 copies in Ingrams presently. My second only had one copy stocked at Ingrams and when it sold, they elected not to stock anymore.

How long these companies were holding the other author's books is in question and whether they should have been paid when delivered to the places is another matter. with a royalty near $20, that would be a dozen or more books. That is a significant stocking order somewhere.

With the new discounts, I believe that we will not see this scenario again.

Sheryl Nantus

02-10-2006, 01:40 AM

new in the "I got a bad review!" thread...

"As far as the comments about PA, that was utterly uncalled for as well and absolutely untrue. When this reviewer made those ugly comments she attacked every PA author and insulted everyone who has read and enjoyed a book PA publishes. I should think PA would demand a very large retraction and a very loud public apology.

PA's authors are selling through nearly every mainstream retail venue and I don't know of any lawsuits in the works do you? I know Bush is being tried in courts around the world as a murderer and terrorist because of his deceptive invasion of Iraq and the tens of thousands of innocent civilians that have been killed by coilition forces there and around the world but I don't see her paper making much of an issue of it. Not a word of that is in her paper. I think this ol' broad in Maine needs to consider her sources before she prints something as fact. That is something I think is worth spending a few dollars to advertise.

Since this reviewer definitly has very few scruples and has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt she isn't above printing lies to disparage a reputable company I think the paper has an obligation to remove her. Apparently either through blatant ignorance, jealousy, or plain vindictiveness this person has chosen to try and discredit an author by printing untruths about a third party, in this case the publisher. Seems to me she has a fairly obvious affection for your father too. Maybe that's one of the reasons your mother left town.

I should suggest you ignore this situation completely. Its beneath a person, such as yourself, who has proven herself to be of such admirable character. Look around at your family and the life you've been able to create. That's all the evidence you should need to know your story is valid and even this vapid reviewer didn't have the pettiness to try and disparage your talent. But I know I couldn't just walk away. Take out that ad, expose her lies, and then have those freinds and readers barage that paper with some accurate reviews and not weak, poorly substanuated critiques. I see a major interview coming out of this and you should be the first one to contact local radio staions and that paper to demand you have equal access to the media."

of course, the writer's book hasn't been released yet...

:Shrug:

lurkers - do you REALISE how stupid you look when you post things like this on the public boards? Really?

and then you wonder why you can't get your PA overpriced, under-edited tome reviewed anywhere other than by other PA authors...

Christine N.

02-10-2006, 02:22 AM

Obviously this person never read any of the articles in major newspapers that pretty much said the same thing...

Tilly

02-10-2006, 02:23 AM

I have updated my website. Everyone is free to come and take a look. Very thought-provoking if I say so myself. Hold on to your hats.
www.geocities.com/complexitypoet (http://www.geocities.com/complexitypoet)

It's gone from the PA board now, but YAY!

Edit: Ilovepensandpaper did this:hooray:

Maddog

02-10-2006, 02:30 AM

Hmm...I wonder if "Ilovepensandpaper" has found a new way to get out of a PA contract? They've got to hate her right now, well done!

Should someone warn that poor reviewer in Maine that she's about to get dragged through the mud by a rabid bunch of "published authors"? Poor lady, she'll never see it coming. And she'll certainly never review a PA book again.

Edit: Thanks Tilly, I forgot

Tilly

02-10-2006, 02:31 AM

It wasn't me, it was Ilovepensandpaper :)
I'll edit my post to make it clear!

Christine N.

02-10-2006, 02:40 AM

And the "I got a bad review" thread is no more. I think... I couldn't find it.

Nexusman

02-10-2006, 02:48 AM

And the "I got a bad review" thread is no more. I think... I couldn't find it.

It makes sense that PA would delete it. The thread contains a link to an article that has negative information about PA. While most of the PA authors would vehemently stand by and defend their publisher (for whatever reason) there will be the few degenerates that considers the article to have a bit of truth to it. PA wouldn't have that, and they wouldn't have any would-be victims scared off either.

-Nick

Ilovepensandpaper

02-10-2006, 02:55 AM

Tilly, you found out before me! I couldn't sign in either, so I guess I have been banned!

Tilly

02-10-2006, 03:00 AM

There's a special T-shirt you can buy if you get banned from the PA forum from cafe press. :D

Sher2

02-10-2006, 03:21 AM

And the "I got a bad review" thread is no more. I think... I couldn't find it.
It's still up, here:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10910&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=172575589d6d0127db3bb050473c5c78

Nexusman

02-10-2006, 03:23 AM

It's still up, here:
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10910&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=172575589d6d0127db3bb050473c5c78

Looks like it's been moved to private. Well, I can still cite my earlier post for reasons.

-Nick

Ilovepensandpaper

02-10-2006, 03:26 AM

Ain't that a trip! A T-shirt! Wow. Now i would spend money on that! Well, I haven't received any emails concerning that or as a reply to an email I had sent when I first found out about PA. Here is what I wrote:

To Whom It May Concern:
I have written before concerned getting books for book signings and events, and I am appalled that I should have to pay out of pocket for books for these events! If anything, the books the author requests( their OWN work), should be given to them at no cost, but the potential buyers, on the otherhand, should pay. Both the company and the author both benefit from this - I do not see how PA doesn't see that. The authors at PA are not given a generous advance or anything similar to be paying for large amounts of books, traveling all over the place, and making promotional materials.

I also have another concern. I contacted a bookstore that said that it doesn't shelve self-published books. I thought PA was not a self-publishing company! It claims it is a traditional publisher. If that bookstore is mistaken, I believe that it will behoove you to call this particular bookstore and explain to them that you are not a self-publisher so that your business would not suffer from misinformation. I won't send the info of the bookstore unless you ask for it, and I will be sure to check up with them in the event that you do decide to call and do call them.

I am also upset that you claimed to put authors' books in major bookstores, and you don't! In fact, authors have to promote with them as well! What is traditional about this? What promotion does PA do on authors' behalves?

I am very concerned about my book. I put a lot of effort and hard work into my work, and I expect the best to be done by it. It needs diligent promotion and the help of a reputable publisher to get into the limelight. It doesn't need an author who is burnt out and broke because the publisher won't give her a break by having free promotional books for book signing and events - without taking money from the author's pocket.

I believe you will take this matter seriously, and will do your best to satisfy your authors. I believe you have your authors' interests at heart and want to see them succeed. I hope to hear from you as soon as possible regarding this matter. Thank you.

I sent that January 30th. I may just resend it again to see if I get a response...

Maddog

02-10-2006, 03:31 AM

You could also send them a link to your fabulous website. I'd love to hear what they have to say about that!

NancyMehl

02-10-2006, 03:36 AM

Should someone warn that poor reviewer in Maine that she's about to get dragged through the mud by a rabid bunch of "published authors"? Poor lady, she'll never see it coming. And she'll certainly never review a PA book again.

And some authors can't understand it when book reviewers refuse to accept PA books.

It's a mystery... http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/e2hammer.gif

Nancy

Gabriele

02-10-2006, 03:41 AM

I believe you will take this matter seriously, and will do your best to satisfy your authors. I believe you have your authors' interests at heart and want to see them succeed. I hope to hear from you as soon as possible regarding this matter. Thank you.

I sent that January 30th. I may just resend it again to see if I get a response...

I think you have just heard from them. They banned you. :D

Nexusman

02-10-2006, 03:51 AM

To Whom It May Concern:
I have written before concerned getting books for book signings and events, and I am appalled that I should have to pay out of pocket for books for these events! If anything, the books the author requests( their OWN work), should be given to them at no cost, but the potential buyers, on the otherhand, should pay. Both the company and the author both benefit from this - I do not see how PA doesn't see that. The authors at PA are not given a generous advance or anything similar to be paying for large amounts of books, traveling all over the place, and making promotional materials.

I also have another concern. I contacted a bookstore that said that it doesn't shelve self-published books. I thought PA was not a self-publishing company! It claims it is a traditional publisher. If that bookstore is mistaken, I believe that it will behoove you to call this particular bookstore and explain to them that you are not a self-publisher so that your business would not suffer from misinformation. I won't send the info of the bookstore unless you ask for it, and I will be sure to check up with them in the event that you do decide to call and do call them.

I am also upset that you claimed to put authors' books in major bookstores, and you don't! In fact, authors have to promote with them as well! What is traditional about this? What promotion does PA do on authors' behalves?

I am very concerned about my book. I put a lot of effort and hard work into my work, and I expect the best to be done by it. It needs diligent promotion and the help of a reputable publisher to get into the limelight. It doesn't need an author who is burnt out and broke because the publisher won't give her a break by having free promotional books for book signing and events - without taking money from the author's pocket.

I believe you will take this matter seriously, and will do your best to satisfy your authors. I believe you have your authors' interests at heart and want to see them succeed. I hope to hear from you as soon as possible regarding this matter. Thank you.

I sent that January 30th. I may just resend it again to see if I get a response...

It'd probably be something along these lines:

"You have been given false information. There is nothing wrong with our contract, it is industry standard. PublishAmerica has signed over 17,000 happy authors and you are part of a small, vocal, and deluded minority. Do not take that tone with us. Any further correspondence from you will be deleted unread. We await your apology."

Sorry, I get a bit more cynical every time I see PA's site load and think I could design a more professional site even if I had puked on my keyboard.

-Nick

Gabriele

02-10-2006, 03:57 AM

We await your apology."

"And take down that website of yours, it's libel and slander, and we'll send you some fake cop if you don't."

Memphis Ed

02-10-2006, 05:39 AM

I hope to have
the book in every library and bookstore in the near future - as
fast as I can.

This is from the PAMB. Another author with great hopes getting ready to get shot down. Another dream bites the dust.

I'm tired of these bastards.

PA lurkers, read these posts carefully. I have never had a book with PA. I am a hard-working, published author. I make a lot of my income from writing. I write free-lance columns, I have regular column gigs, and my second book being released in my publisher's catalog. I am a member of the Author's Guild. I am proud of my writing credentials and I can't carry the briefcase of many of the authors that post here. I am proud to have the limited association with the people on this board.

The people who post here do not have a bone to pick with you. Get over that. Our issue is with your publisher and specifically the way they do business.

You can rant on and on about "bashing", but don't for a moment compare your publisher with legitimate publishers. It is okay for you to compare your writing to others...no problem with that. But don't try to raise the quality of your writing by bringing your publisher into the argument.

The guy whose message I quoted is NEVER going to get his PA book in bookstores. It is simply not their business model. There is not ONE of the 17,000 books they have published which has been distributed in bookstores. Read that again...not one.

The 200 Author book is going to sell under 200 books. It is not going to get PA books in bookstores.

The guy at PAMB who is the current marketing expert is not going to get your book in bookstores.

Unless you have a platform (i.e. a way to reach lots of people on a regular basis, such as speaking, TV or radio show, etc), your books are not going to sell a lot unless they are in bookstores.

Not one in 17,000 has done that.

DaveKuzminski

02-10-2006, 05:57 AM

http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopreviewlist.asp?id=8464

Um, wait until Willem or Larry notices that page! ;)

Kind of proves that P&E isn't against PA authors. We just want to see them get treated fairly.

Aw, man, they took out the best blurbs for one of their books. Just goes to show how much PA really wants their authors to succeed when they yank out a positive review of one of their books because they don't like the guy who wrote it. Yep, PA really doesn't care about their authors! And they just proved that they don't.

By the way, Larry and Willem, do you realize how long those two blurbs from P&E's editor promoting one of your books were on your site? Gotcha! Don't thank me all at once. You still haven't found everything yet. :)

Hi, Miranda, got any cutting remarks for me? ;)

Berry

02-10-2006, 06:36 AM

(channeling PA)
"Any further correspondence from you will be deleted unread. We await your apology."

If they're deleting correspondance unread, they're going to wait a LONG time for that apology...

Nexusman

02-10-2006, 08:23 AM

Hi, Miranda, got any cutting remarks for me? ;)

I think most of those are already at www.authorsmarket.net somewhere...

-Nick

AnnaWhite

02-10-2006, 02:57 PM

Tilly, you found out before me! I couldn't sign in either, so I guess I have been banned!
Welcome to the land of the banned :Hug2:. It's the place you go to when you reach enlightnment :D .

BTW, I love your website, Ilovepensandpaper. I also think you picked a powerful title. "Do your Homework on Publish America (http://www.geocities.com/complexitypoet/)" is direct, true, and makes a person sit up.

James D. Macdonald

02-10-2006, 03:11 PM

One correction: PublishAmerica did not print Atlanta Nights. PublishAmerica accepted Atlanta Nights. There's a major difference.

PublishAmerica rejected Atlanta Nights after we went public with the fact that it was a hoax.

Aconite

02-10-2006, 04:24 PM

If they're deleting correspondance unread, they're going to wait a LONG time for that apology...OTOH, that policy ensures they'll continue to be surprised by lawsuits (such as the EB lawsuit) that come about when they ignore cease-and-desist letters, so I kinda like it. After all, a certain company known for its vigorous defense of its intellectual property ought to be contacting them any day now about a certain unauthorized image on a certain book cover.

xhouseboy

02-10-2006, 05:26 PM

From the PAMB. My emphasis.

This is a very good question. I do know of several people with more than 2 books with PA and they are very successful by PA's standards. I'm not sure if there is an iron clad rule about the number of books PA will publish for an author but I would imagine that sales has got to be a part of the equation since if the books don't sell Pa doen't make any money. This is just one more way PA is totally not a vanity or POD publisher. They have a lot of their time and money tied up in every book and if the books aren't successful PA won't be either. It may also be as you suggested PA is a springboard for new authors and they figure by 2 or 3 books an author should have proven themselves by acquiring a fan base. Or maybe that author that had a couple of her books rejected was just falling into a trap of formula writing and PA figured those projects would not be profitable at this time. I think this is another case where each and every submission is judged on its own but with the good of the company which means the good of all of us at PA as well definitely a major factor in the decision.
An inquirie might be in order to PA support. They always have the answer.

I've mentioned this subject before, but the habit of including an almost throwaway praise of PA in many of the posts never ceases to amaze me.

It's almost like a subtext declaring undying loyalty, in the hope of warding off an attack.

I've been watching 'I, Claudius', and a good analogy to this would probably be the Caligula era. Whenever the Senators had to address him, it was always a good idea to inject the question with fawning praise of the Emperor, lest he decided to have their guts for garters just for the hell of it.

Tilly

02-10-2006, 05:47 PM

It's a shame these science fiction writers on the PA board don't know what their company has said about the genre.
http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10920

(snip)science-fiction and fantasy writers have it easier. It's unfair, but such is life. As a rule of thumb, the quality bar for sci-fi and fantasy is a lot lower than for all other fiction. Therefore, beware of published authors who are self-crowned writing experts. When they tell you what to do and not to do in getting your book published, always first ask them what genre they write. If it's sci-fi or fantasy, run. They have no clue about what it is to write real-life stories, and how to find them a home. Unless you are a sci-fi or fantasy author yourself.
http://www.authorsmarket.net/experts.htm

spike

02-10-2006, 05:48 PM

They have a lot of their time and money tied up in every book and if the books aren't successful PA won't be either. What time and money? Run spell check and have 2 copies printed?

Tilly

02-10-2006, 06:07 PM

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10997

POD books are gaining shelf space in trade bookstores because chain and independent bookstore buyers don’t have the time to distinguish their titles from those published by POD presses.

I'm baffled as to why this person thinks that. PA's mock return policy has made it harder for PA authors to get into book shops. A book shop can tell if a book is returnable, and whether they will lose money on it.

Note: the trade is looking at E-Books as a fading fad because of an influx of poorly written and edited titles. POD technology is on the move with ever-increasing internet sales, and Publish America is riding the crest of a wave of new titles, gaining more shelf space in trade stores every day

This is even weirder. The problems he lists for ebooks are some of the problems for POD, and where is he getting the idea POD sales and shelf presence are increasing?

Memphis Ed

02-10-2006, 06:42 PM

It's almost like a subtext declaring undying loyalty, in the hope of warding off an attack.

Inclusion in the cult of the PAMB appears to be one of the big benefits of being published by PA. It is indeed an issue of fear of annoying the cult leader for fear of being "banned" from contact with the group.

It is literally one of the most phenomenal cultural experiences I have ever witnessed.

I hang out at Graceland during Elvis week each year. Elvis followers from around the world, but none (okay maybe a few) are convinced they are Elvis and no one is fearful of being excluded from the group.

The PAers appear to think that their existance as a published author is dependant upon being included in the PAMB group.

Is that true Dee, Jean Marie, Nancy, Kevin, Ken, ..........et al?

postshy

02-10-2006, 07:41 PM

Ilovepensand paper! PA lurkers, you have no excuse for staying with, or defending PA. I just wish that information was out there when I signed with the now infamous PubliSHAMerica.

By the way, for you loyal PA authors, who call us "bashers" - have you noted how ardently you defend your Publisher, but they do not do the same for you. Do they help you to defend yourself against those "bad reviewers" or "big, bad book stores". Of course not, they pull your posts, or conveniently ignore them. They know you will continue to buy your own books, so what do they care about bookstores or reviewers?

You get answers alright - you get banned!

If you go public with your complaints,they will hold your book out of spite. If you are moderately successful and lucky enough to have bookstores order your book, then they release you from your contract. YOU can't win! And yet you "happy" PA authors call AW posters spiteful! Please hold your comments until after your books are out and you have received, OR NOT, your first royalty cheque. That is when PA turns ugly.

The only way PA is revolutionizing the industry is by TAKING YOUR MONEY while honest publishers try to pay YOU money! Think about it!

postshy/Roberta

akaa1a

02-10-2006, 07:54 PM

The PAers appear to think that their existance as a published author is dependant upon being included in the PAMB group. Memphis Ed

I was one of those once. I think part of the psychology for me was just like that of college students I knew that sat in the front row of the class and hung on every word of the professor.
I went to the convention thinking that the PA brass might remember I was there (what a flippin' joke) and would make sure that MY book wouldn't be shoved aside, that I would be different, that I would be a success where other's failed.

Luckily, a few wonderful people saw the stars in my eyes on that first day and educated me.

PA wants you to fear them. They want to be able to tell you how dumb your way of thinking is and then expect you to grovel at their feet. They want you to feel excommunicated from the "PA family" so you, your family and friends can be controlled (see new contract fine).

I think this was the most moronic I have ever been in my life! I learned from it and I have moved on.

PS...thanks Lynn and Kev!

Saundra Julian

02-10-2006, 08:07 PM

There is an antidote for the PA poison! ...and the truth shall set you free!
Hurts a little, but you'll live...
Saundra

NancyMehl

02-10-2006, 08:54 PM

The PAers appear to think that their existance as a published author is dependant upon being included in the PAMB group.

Is that true Dee, Jean Marie, Nancy, Kevin, Ken, ..........et al?

Uh...no.

Nancy

DeePower

02-10-2006, 09:00 PM

The PAers appear to think that their existance as a published author is dependant upon being included in the PAMB group.

Is that true Dee, ...

Not for me. I had two nonfiction books published by John Wiley & Sons before the Piss Ass published my novel. And another book published by a commercial publisher after the PA book.

Dee

DeePower

02-10-2006, 09:05 PM

Does this guy just make stuff up?

The truth about how books get in bookstores.

How Do Books Get on the Bookstore Shelves?

2004 (the latest info available) saw a record of 195,000 new books released in the United States, a growth rate of 20,000 from the previous year. But not all of these books are meant for readers who shop in bookstores and online. The types of books not suitable for bookstore placement is about 50% of the new titles and include: medical resources, text books, and corporate publications. But that still leaves 97,500 hopeful titles and their authors waiting for bookstore placement.

How difficult is it to get a book published by a commercial publisher?
Well the odds are better gambling in Las Vegas. It has been estimated that 25 million people in the United States consider themselves writers and only 5% have been published anywhere.

Most major publishing houses, and many small presses, will not accept submissions that aren’t represented by a literary agent. During the research of The Making of a Bestseller: Success Stories From Authors and the Editors, Agents and Booksellers Behind Them, we asked literary agents how many unsolicited query letters/proposals/sample chapters, they receive. For the typical agency it is close to 5000 per year. On the average these agents accepted only 11 new clients, that’s about 1out of every 500 submissions.

Of course writers submit to more than one agency in the hopes of obtaining representation which makes the odds a little better, but not much.

It has been estimated that the five large publishing companies, Random House Inc., Penguin USA, Simon & Schuster, Time Warner and HarperCollins, account for nearly eighty percent of all book sales in the US. This has occurred for the same reasons any other industry goes through consolidation: by combining certain administrative or staff functions, costs can be reduced and profits increased. Publishing, relative to many other industries, has not enjoyed a high Return on Investment (ROI) for investors. Now, publishers are much more focused on having every single book they publish be profitable. This means a more risk averse philosophy, with a preference for publishing authors with successful track records--a sound business strategy.

Marketing Comes First
After the book has been written and acquired by a publisher the marketing and public relations departments work together on developing a promotional plan for each title. That plan can be as simple as sending out review copies and a couple of press releases, or as complicated as arranging a book tour, media appearances, radio and TV interviews and advertising.

In any case every title has one thing in common. It appears in the publisher’s catalog. That catalog is developed five to six months prior to the season, sometimes the title is included in the catalog and the book hasn’t even been finished by the author yet. The title description includes a blurb about the content, the author’s bio, and any special promotions, such as a six city author tour, or significant first printing. The catalog is mailed to the book buyers, or in the case of the major publishers, taken to the stores buyers by the sales representatives.

The rest of the article (too long to post here) is online at
http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com/howbooks.html

It covers:

How Bookstores Select Titles

What are industry standard terms? And why are they important

What the booksellers say

Getting your self-published, vanity/subsidy, or publish on demand book in bookstores

Dee

Memphis Ed

02-10-2006, 09:09 PM

Is that true Dee, Jean Marie, Nancy, Kevin, Ken, ..........et al?

It was not clear enought that I was being facetious here. I consider each of these former PAers excellent authors who became, or are becoming, successful outside the clutches of these douchebags at PA.

Lurkers....don't get scammed by these guys. Pass the impulse to get the quick fix and go a different direction.

DeePower

02-10-2006, 09:18 PM

about how authors get on the bestseller lists.

You can't buy your way onto a bestseller list, except amazon.

While you can find out which independent stores are surveyed for the NY Times Bestseller list, it wouldnt matter if you sent in a thousand friends to buy your book at one of the stores, all in the same week. The bestseller program looks at the data and analyzes it. If one store shows a pop in sales that's unusual for a title, the store is contacted. And if the NYT staff feels that the list is being manipulated, the data for that title is not included for that store. I know this because I interviewed personnel at the NYT to find out.

Of course if you had a thousand friends each buy 10 copies at 10 different stores across the country then you might make an impact. But then 100,000 copies sold in one week across the country would be a legitimate bestseller.

As far as amazon, yes if you had 1000 friends each buy a copy all on the same day, it would significantly boost the ranking. I know one author who got their book to the number 4 spot, by offering incentives and free bonuses to anyone who purchased the book on the specified day. I believe sales of about 2000 copies made the number 4 spot.

This Baxter knows enough to be dangerous. Do you think he really knows how publishing works and is manipulating the information for PA's benefit?

Oh, and as far as his statement that bookstores can't tell if a book is POD, that's true and false. If the book is printed and sold using the publish on demand model, meaning the book isn't printed, until it's been ordered and paid for, then it's false. Bookstores can tell through Ingram that it's POD. If the book is just printed using print on demand technology, but sold through a distributor at industry standard terms, then it's true. Bookstores wouldn't see the POD designation. See what I mean about his manipulation?

Dee