Colloquialisms, usage of...

[mesh138]

Just curious as to what the, if any, the rules are for using colloquialisms in novels. For example, should you say something "Struck a cord" with someone, or is it better to just say it "interested" them? Any opinions?

[Jarsto]

I'm not sure if there are rules for this but I know what I'd do. If the phrase fits with a character you can use it in dialogue. If it fits with the character that has the POV you can use it in the narrative.

The only thing I'd think about is whether the colloquialism in question is widely known. Striking a chord is a well known phrase, and can also easily be interpreted by anyone reading it in context. If the phrase is not well known and difficult to interpret you may have to ask yourself whether using it would hurt the readers' ability to enjoy the story.

[reph]

mesh, if you use that particular phrase, please note that the spelling is "chord." It's about musical notes, not string.

[Jamesaritchie]

Just curious as to what the, if any, the rules are for using colloquialisms in novels. For example, should you say something "Struck a cord" with someone, or is it better to just say it "interested" them? Any opinions?

There's really nothing wrong with using colloquialisms as a general rule, but very often colloquialisms drift over into the category of cliches, and this can be a problem. It is, I think, much better to use colloquialisms that aren't as well known, or that you invent.

Cliches, whatever form they take, jump off the page at most readers, and certainly at editors, agents, and reviewers.

[aruna]

There's really nothing wrong with using colloquialisms as a general rule, but very often colloquialisms drift over into the category of cliches, and this can be a problem. It is, I think, much better to use colloquialisms that aren't as well known, or that you invent.

Cliches, whatever form they take, jump off the page at most readers, and certainly at editors, agents, and reviewers.

I agree with James. In this case, I would not use "strike a chord" unless I had a very strong reason to do so (eg, in dialogue, if the speaker likes to use cliches)

[loquax]

Sometimes colloquialisms have very distinct meanings that have connotations unatainable by using other words. To "strike a chord" with someone is a very specific thing, and IMO removing it for the sake of getting rid of a colloquialism, when it could affect the meaning of what you're trying to say, is not a good idea.

[mesh138]

Sometimes colloquialisms have very distinct meanings that have connotations unatainable by using other words. To "strike a chord" with someone is a very specific thing, and IMO removing it for the sake of getting rid of a colloquialism, when it could affect the meaning of what you're trying to say, is not a good idea.

Thanks. I think you're right. It's important to go through the MS, pick out the colloquialisms, and make sure that its specific meaning fits what I'm trying to say. Appreciate the advice.

[SeanDSchaffer]

A good idea might be to use the colloquialisms in dialogue, and to use correct language in the narrative. The idea that a character would use such phrases is understandable, but with a few exceptions they probably would not go as well in the narrative.

[Cheryll]

[QUOTE=SeanDSchaffer]A good idea might be to use the colloquialisms in dialogue, and to use correct language in the narrative. [QUOTE]

I agree. I once read a novel by Elizabeth George... can't for the life of me remember the name right now... but one of her minor characters was literally a walking cliche. His speech, his mannerisms, the way he dressed, etc. He was an American fish-out-of-water in London, and the use of colloquialisms when he talked was perfect for that particular character. But in the narrative, Ms. George went back to her regular style.

Cheryll

[loquax]

I don't think there's any question as to whether colloquialisms should be used in dialogue. Of course they should. I'm surprised the point was even raised in the first place, as it implies that there's a possibility for instances when they shouldn't be used.

[Maryn]

I don't think there's any question as to whether colloquialisms should be used in dialogue. Of course they should. I'm surprised the point was even raised in the first place, as it implies that there's a possibility for instances when they shouldn't be used.I cringe when I read a novel taking place in a world other than the real one, whether it's fantasy, historial, or other-worldly, and the author uses colloquialisms that are based in this world.

For example, on a world where the beverages are silicon-based, nobody should be 'the cream in anybody's coffee' and nothing should be anyone's 'cup of tea.'

In a fantasy world which does not share the history, technology, cultures, etc. of this one, nothing should ever need a 'jump start' and nobody who's not around is 'AWOL.'

In an ancient or medieval setting, nobody who's doing pretty well at an endeavor should be 'batting a thousand' and someone seeking privacy for bodily functions shouldn't ask where she can 'powder her nose.'

Maryn, who'd need a jump start to bat a mere .220

[loquax]

But that doesn't mean scifi or fantasy dialogue should mirror the narrative. They should have their own colloquialisms and slang. Mixing modern slang with non-modern settings is a different matter, and can be spread to other areas as well, not just dialogue.

[Jarsto]

A good idea might be to use the colloquialisms in dialogue, and to use correct language in the narrative. The idea that a character would use such phrases is understandable, but with a few exceptions they probably would not go as well in the narrative.

This depends on the POV you're using. In a first person I would probably go with the colloquialisms of the MC. While I'm not sure, off the top of my head, about colloquialisms specifically, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn has a first person narrative that doesn't differ much from Huck's speaking voice.

It's trickier with third person, but a very tight third person POV, very focused on one character, could probably also include colloquialisms that character might use. The closer the third person POV is focused, the more room for the character's voice I would say.

[reph]

Actually, "strike a chord" isn't a colloquialism; it's a metaphor. The line is blurry. "Kick the bucket," being more down-homey than "strike a chord," is slang (it's also a euphemism). "Ain't" is colloquial in modern use. A thorough discussion of when to use colloquialisms would include what they are.

[Medievalist]

It's not colloquialisms that you're really talking about; you're talking about what linguists call register.

The concept of register, linguistically, is that there are different degrees of formality in language, and that all language takes place in a context--when you adjust to a context, you are changing your register. That means degree of formality, syntax, vocabulary, body language, proximity, and intonation are adjusted for context (and that includes the speaker, audience and occasion).

The first question is always "Will the reader understand?" and the second "Is it appropriate for the character/voice?". The answer to both questions should be "yes," with the understanding that sometimes it's ok to delay the reader's understanding for a short time--but only sometimes, and only for a short time. You don't want to frustrate the reader.

[arrowqueen]

Just to be picky, I'd say 'Kick the bucket' was a dysphemism. :tongue

[arrowqueen]

I'll just go and hide behind the couch now.

[loquax]

Mwahaha! Reph was wrong! "Pass away" would be a euphemism

*joins arrowqueen behind the couch*

[arrowqueen]

I hope you brought a flask and some sandwiches. We may be here for some time.

[reph]

It's a euphemism. Kicking a bucket is nicer than dying.

[arrowqueen]

It's not.

'Passing away.'/'Going to join the angels.' are euphemisms.

'Kicking the bucket.'/'Popping your clogs.'/'Dropping off the perch.' are dysphemisms.

One would not say to the bereaved: 'So sorry to hear your Aunt Aggie kicked the bucket.'

[arrowqueen]

Well, not if you wanted to be invited back for the sherry and the ham sandwiches, you wouldn't.

[Jarsto]

One would not say to the bereaved: 'So sorry to hear your Aunt Aggie kicked the bucket.'

Why, when I read this, do I feel afraid that there are people out there who would say just that?

[reph]

From the entry for dysphemism, under "Rhetorical Figures and Faults," in Theodore Bernstein, The Careful Writer:
Dysphemism is almost the opposite of euphemism. It means the use of a disparaging or offensive term to describe something inoffensive or even grand. To speak of a navy destroyer, as sailors do, as a tin can, or of one's mother as the old lady, or of a mansion as a shack is to use a dysphemism.
"Kick the bucket" is slang, but I can't see that it qualifies as a dysphemism by that definition.

[Jamesaritchie]

Euphemisms, dysphemisms, or metaphors, most are pure cliche, and too many of them will make the writing unreadable. If you think readers reject cliches quickly, look at it from an editor's standpoint. A cliche is a cliche because it's overused, and for each time a reader sees one, an editor probably sees that same one a thousand times.

Calling them Euphemisms, dysphemisms, metaphors, or cooloquialisms doesn't help. To an editor, anything he's seen a thousand times is a cliche. The surest way to kill any chance your story has with an editor is to fill it with cliches, no matter what lebel the cliche wears.

[(grasshopper)]

Euphemisms, dysphemisms, or metaphors, most are pure cliche, and too many of them will make the writing unreadable. If you think readers reject cliches quickly, look at it from an editor's standpoint. A cliche is a cliche because it's overused, and for each time a reader sees one, an editor probably sees that same one a thousand times.

Calling them Euphemisms, dysphemisms, metaphors, or cooloquialisms doesn't help. To an editor, anything he's seen a thousand times is a cliche. The surest way to kill any chance your story has with an editor is to fill it with cliches, no matter what lebel the cliche wears.



Ahhhh, geez, James.
Just ruin all the fun, why don'tcha. :D

[Sharon Mock]

Euphemisms, dysphemisms, or metaphors, most are pure cliche....
Cacophemisms, on the other hand, are A-OK.:Soapbox: (Okay, I'll stop being frivolous now.)

[arrowqueen]

Quite right, James and I apologise for hi-jacking the thread.

C'mon, reph, let's take this elsewhere. Or as we say in Scotland: 'Ootside wi' the jaikets off.'