Used books...

[maestrowork]

It's a little disconcerting for me to see the flurry of "used books" listed on my Amazon.com page. Especially one that stated: "Like new, bookplate removed from inside the cover."

I just wonder, where do these people get the book? The one with the "bookplate removed" sounds very suspicious -- do potential reviewers (or book stores) take the ARCs they receive and turn around and sell them for profit? If so, that means they're ripping the publisher and me off, and that bugs me. I don't mind if people bought the book, read it, then sell it back for $. But to sell ARCs I think is questionable.

Any thoughts?

[scfirenice]

I think the whole used book market is a scam unless you are talking about overpriced text books. Of course this is coming from someone who also hopes to be published like you. I read an article in WD that some large book stores will sell new books "used" if they have been on the shelf awhile so they make some profit. I dunno.

[James D. Macdonald]

Used books don't bother me. I've already been paid for them.

Selling ARCs doesn't bother me either. There aren't many of them, and each one that's floating around produces possible new readers. The number one reason anyone buys any book is that they read and enjoyed a previous title by the same author.

[veinglory]

I can't say it bothers me either. I have yet to sell an ARC I reviewed but next time I move I probably will. Reviewers do it for the book, it becomes theirs to do with as they please.

[Marcusthefish]

When I worked for a major bookstore chain (a dozen years ago), there was a shelf of ARCs by the manager's desk, free for the taking. I took a few to read, but never sold them. But selling them would have been a major pain back then. It would be much easier to make some decent cash off them now.

I've read the argument that a robust used market actually increases demand for a product, because the buyer knows he can recoup most of his cost. I believe this works for larger ticket items (I used to buy a lot of guitar gear knowing that I could easily sell it if I didn't like it), but I'm not convinced it's true for books.

MTF

[NeuroFizz]

I think the whole used book market is a scam unless you are talking about overpriced text books.
My bolding.
Please don't assume the used book market has helped "starving students." One of the reasons textbooks took such a huge jump in price a couple of decades ago is the used book market. If one plots the "profitability" of a textbook over successive years, the second year the book loses about half of its worth, and by the third year, approaches "unprofitable." This is why authors are strongly encouraged (by publishing companies) to come out with a new edition every three years. While the used textbook market has helped some students, it has hurt just as many, probably way more.

Now place yourself in the shoes of a textbook author. It typically takes a couple of years to come up with a good, general-use college textbook. You would hope that your efforts would generate more than two or three years of royalties, right, considering the book may be of value for twice that time period? With the used book market, that would be about it unless you came out with a new edition. Yet, the new edition rarely contains enough new material to warrant the increase in cover price. This puts the author in a strange position, and is one of the main reasons I haven't thought seriously about writing a text. I'll save that for when my research program dries up, and then I still may pass...

Regarding the resale of books, I get "instructor's copies" of texts from publishing companies since they want me to adopt their text, particuarly for my large classes. Every semester, a person (not affiliated with any publishing company) comes by and asks if I want to sell any of my "instructor's copies." I refuse since I think this is unethical, not only on my part, but also on the part of the buyer, who will turn around and sell the books for profit even though they say, "Instructor Copy - Not for Resale" on the cover. I know some of my collegues don't see this the way I do.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, I see one of my ARC's for sale at my B&N.com page. Some review sites don't allow their reviewers to sell the books - I don't know who is selling this one of mine, but it could be an independent reviewer. I had a few of those.

[DamaNegra]

What's an ARC??


I like to buy all my books new, not used. First, because books aren't that expensive (except for textbooks, and they can be used for reference later). Second, because I like the smell of new books. And third, because it's not fair to the author or publisher. Three people are reading the book, yet the author gets paid for only one book and two other persons make a profit from it. I think it's like piracy.

[James D. Macdonald]

What's an ARC??

Advance Reading Copy.

[Hoody]

I have mixed feelings on the used book market, but for myself I have remedied the dilemma. If I enjoy an author enough to read several of their books, I buy them at the book store new. This allows me to show application, all through small, for the works that entertain me. But I buy used books of authors I have never read, which is a great way of discovering new or old authors.

[veinglory]

I buy used books because 99% of books can't be got new (out of print etc). I also use the library and don't consider that taking food from writers mouths.

[Button]

I buy used books with absolutely no shame. If I don't know who you are, I may not pick up your book at the bookstore, but I'd more than willingly try it if it is at a used bookstore or if I swapped for it.

It lets me try out new authors I have not heard about. If I like the writing, I'm more than likely to pick up the next book or recommend it to friends who may actually buy the book.

It's great for publicity. Yes, people go overboard and may stop buying from bookshops, but they would have done that anyways. ;)

[scfirenice]

Neuro,
All I can say is 250$ for ONE medical book new is ridiculous. Even buying used I would spend over a thousand dollars in one semester. Tell me that is not insane.

[veinglory]

On one hand some texts lose economy of scale as they may sell only 1000 copies, on the other they have a 'captive market' and can charge pretty much anything they want.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've paid over $300 for a (slender) medical reference book.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I rarely buy new unless it's a brand new release of a book by an author I already enjoy immensely.

Books are outrageously priced IMO. I remember going into a bookstore as a teen with $10 and I could come out with around 8 books or more! Now I'm lucky if I can get one for that price.

Then people wonder why no one is reading any more.

[maestrowork]

Meanwhile, we all want to be writers and make $millions. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

I rarely buy new unless it's a brand new release of a book by an author I already enjoy immensely.

Books are outrageously priced IMO. I remember going into a bookstore as a teen with $10 and I could come out with around 8 books or more! Now I'm lucky if I can get one for that price.

Then people wonder why no one is reading any more.
You could also go into a grocery store with ten bucks and buy a heck of a lot more food than you can now. It's called inflation. So do you now buy used food? And I'll bet you make a heck of a lot more money per hour now than you could as a teen, too.

[NeuroFizz]

Neuro,
All I can say is 250$ for ONE medical book new is ridiculous. Even buying used I would spend over a thousand dollars in one semester. Tell me that is not insane.
Hi, S.

It is, indeed, insane and it sickens me. What I'm saying is that part of the reason for the huge increase in the cost of texts and medical books IS the used book market. The publishing companies will always make their profit, and if they have to compete with used books, they will just pump up the price of the new books and come out with new editions of their texts every three years.

I used to choose textbooks for my classes based on which ones were the best for the classes and for the students. Now, that is only one of two considerations. The other is the cost to the students. Every time I select a text, the publishing company tells me about the great accessories (study guides, anatomy coloring books, etc) they can shrink-wrap with the text, and sell at a bargain to the students (which usually pushes up the cost by at least 50% over that of the naked textbook). I tell them to shrink wrap their a$$e$. I also tell my students if they have access to an older edition of the text, or if they have another, similar text, they can use it--they will have to ask for help to get the page numbers for specific reading assignments, and they may have to borrow one of the new ones if there is updated material. By the way, the university libraries forbid us to put a required textbook for a class on reserve.

So, yes. I think the used book market has done an incredible disservice to students in terms of textbook prices. And no one sees it because there is always a used book selling for less than the new one.

[Julie Worth]

Used books don't bother me. I've already been paid for them.

Even though they undercut the sales of new books? Would you feel the same about reselling ebooks?

[Ronni]

I only buy used books when I have no other options. Out of print, usually. Half-Price Books has a lot of books I read as a teen, and I can get them for 25 cents. I can't find them anywhere else, so I gobble them up.

Otherwise, I buy new. (I too, love the smell of new books!) If I am unsure about shelling out for a particular book, I check it out from the library. If I love it, I'll go and buy it.

[Shadow_Ferret]

You could also go into a grocery store with ten bucks and buy a heck of a lot more food than you can now. It's called inflation. So do you now buy used food? And I'll bet you make a heck of a lot more money per hour now than you could as a teen, too.

Maybe so. But I NEED food. It's called a necessity. I don't need books. They are a luxury item. Entertainment. Like movies, which are too expensive. And sporting events.

And actually, I sure as hell don't make 8 times as much as I made as a teenager. I definately don't have the discretionary income I did as a teen.

Does it bother you to buy a used car, that GM or Ford don't get that money?

I also shop at resale stores because I think clothes are too expensive. Should I worry that Levi's aren't making money off of that purchase?

[maestrowork]

Until recently, I rarely buy used books. I love the look and feel of new books. Also I think it's good to support an author. I did buy a lot of used text books when I was a student, just because I couldn't afford the new ones.

I can see the two sides of argument, though. On one hand, the more people read a book and like it, the better it is for the author. On the other hand, every used book sold means a new book is not bought, or rather, the benefit is deferred (wait until I see this author's next book, then I *may* buy). Well, we could argue, though, that the person who buys the used books probably will never buy a new one anyway... and the more people read it...

But then, why not just give all the books away, if readership is all you care? Nowadays, people want free content. They turn on the TV or radio and go on the Internet and they expect everything to be free -- why buy a newspaper when you can get the news for free on TV and the Internet? Why buy a CD when you can download it for free (pirated copies)? Why buy a book if you can download a e-Book for free or go to the library?

Now what if someone buys one copy of the e-Book for $5, then turn around and let others download it for $1? Is that fair to the e-Book author?

Same idea. We might not see the problem with physical printed books because there's just one book. But when we move to the e-Book arena, suddenly things are not as sweet and innocent as it seems.

It all sounds good for the consumer and we all are consumers of one thing or another. But as a content provider, we may feel differently. Will it come a day when people just won't buy content anymore? So, for an author to make money, he will have to start selling advertisements? I know, on the back cover, instead of the synopsis and blurbs, sell a back cover ad for $10,000, then give the book away for free. Will we ever come to that model because people just won't buy anymore (why buy, if you can get it for free?)

[maestrowork]

I don't need books.

It makes me sad to hear you say that, especially as a fellow writer.

[popmuze]

Here's my ARC story.

One time I was trolling the Used Book sites and saw a notation about one of my books: "Autographed by the author: It's nice to be the one interviewed for a change."

Since I've used that phrase only approximately once, I immediately knew whose book it was. It was a lady who had interviewed me for a newspaper article and then asked me to autograph her copy of the book. And then she went out and sold it! Amazing. But I hear the same thing (in a way) happened to Bob Dylan.

On the other hand, if I'm out of copies of any of my books, it's good to know I can get some for as little as twenty-five cents apiece (plus three dollars postage).

[Shadow_Ferret]

It makes me sad to hear you say that, especially as a fellow writer.

If it comes down to buying a book or paying for food for my kids or paying the mortgage or paying the car payment or any of my other bills, the books comes last.

Books don't feed my kids. I'm a realist. I like books. I enjoy them. I have shelves filled with books. But when I said I don't need books, I meant that I only buy them when I have a few spare dollars undedicated to more important things.

I also believe reading books is a dying art. I know far too many people who never read books and when they see me with one they think I'm some sort of freak.

[roach]

There's a false assumption here that if used books weren't available then people would buy new books. I don't think that's true. I've bought many times more books used than I would have bought used for the simple fact that it's cheaper. Most of the books on my shelf I wouldn't have bought if I couldn't have gotten them used. Instead I would have checked them out of a library.

E-books are a completely different thing. You can't compare the sale of an e-book to the sale of a physical book for the reason that one can sell a digital book and still keep a copy, or sell the copy many times over and still retain one for oneself.

I buy new when a book is out that I really want and can't wait until it reaches the library or until I can find a used copy. I buy used when there's no way I could get a book otherwise. I also grew up in the middle of nowhere. The closest bookstore was 90 miles away. As a child I got all my reading material from the library. I just never got accostomed to buying books. And now that there's the "diapers or books" debate well, diapers will win out over a new book.

Selling ARCs is an emotional gray area for me. When I worked at a used bookstore a man would come in from one of the local newspapers. He'd bring in boxes of ARCs he had taken from a dump room at the newspaper. The buyer at the bookstore would pay him a higher price per book because "they're like new." I was always uncomfortable with it because I wondered how many of those books had actually been reviewed.

[kdnxdr]

Personally, as a single mom living below the poverty level for so long, used bookstores were like heaven for me. I also, picked them up at garage sales and flea markets. And, if I saw books in someone's trash by the road, I stopped and went through them. Actually, my books of choice are books at least 30 - 100 years old. I'm weird. And, I don't resale. I love to read old books.

I also worked for a ministry that bought and sold used books. It was a christian ministry that warehoused thousands of these books and sold them to libraries in other countries where the cost of a book is well beyond the average person's affordability. Primarily, they sold to seminaries/missionaries/bible school students. Working for that ministry taught me how precious a book is to a person that barely knows where the next meal is coming from.

People who sell books to these countries are on "the front lines" as far as I'm concerned. Getting books into other countries and getting their books into ours is one of the most critical cultural events that can happen. When the exchange of ideas becomes suppressed or so commercialized that civilization has no access to books, we will live under the "fist" and it won't necessarily be any one national agenda. The global village must write, write, write to survive.

[Sarita]

I collect antiques (books, that is)... where does that place me? ;)

I think I'm with everyone saying used books are a godsend for people who don't have extra income. At this point in my life, I can afford to go and buy books from the bookstore or online. But there was a time when I couldn't and the only way I had new reading material was buying used. Thank goodness for that!

Now, my dad, sisters, and I are in a book swap circle. When one of us buys new, we circulate it. If they lend me something I love, I'll go buy a copy for myself. We probably trade about 30-50 new books a year, which means we all buy about one new book a month. It really works out nicely for everyone.

[Cheryll]

"Like new, bookplate removed from inside the cover."

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a bookplate?

Cheryll

[alleycat]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a bookplate?

Cheryll
A label or sticker libraries, and some people, put inside the front cover of a book with the name of the owner.

[Liam Jackson]

Perhaps publishing will eventually price itself right out of existence and the traveling bard will make a comeback. Of course, the bard will have to charge more for services in order to pay bodyguards for the trip from Oakland to Anaheim. So, the bard becomes too expensive, and we'll have to resort to..*gasp* books!

Damn, where will the madness end?

(And don't tell me e-books will replace the printed word in my lifetime. Downloaded copies are a nice additon to the mix and I intend to make use of the venue, myself. However, e-versions can't replace the bound treasures residing on my bookshelves.)

[clintl]

I've written a lot of book reviews, and I have sold some of the ARCs to used book stores. I don't feel I've done anything wrong. In every case where I did that, I did so long after the book had been published, and I was weeding out books I didn't want any more. I've kept far more of the ARCs than I've sold. Review copies are sent out as part of a book's advertising and marketing budget. Once I've written the review, I've fulfilled that purpose, so I don't see what distinguishes that copy from any other copy, and I certainly don't think it's wrong to sell a book you bought to a used book store. The writer has received the benefit that the publishing company intended from that copy.

ARCs that weren't reviewed - that's a different story. All the books I reviewed were by assignment, so that situation never applied to me. Although even then, I think it depends on whether the copy was solicited or unsolicited by reviewer. If it was sent unsolicited, then I don't see why the reviewer can't ethically dispose of it in any manner he or she chooses.

I buy mostly new books, and when I buy used books, it's usually something I can't find easily new, but have found browsing in a used book store. For the most part, I think the mix of stock is very different in most used book stores, compared to new book stores, and that they are more complementary than competitive, so I doubt that used books really cut into the sales of new books that much. And if you think used books are bad, what must you think of libraries?

[maestrowork]

ARCs that weren't reviewed - that's a different story.

That's the thing. I do have a thing against selling ARCs for profit that you have not reviewed... that may lead to abuse -- boy, I can really make a lot of money by posing as a reviewer, then never review anything.

In every case where I did that, I did so long after the book had been published

In my case, my book is just being released. So I feel very uncomfortable that someone is selling my ARCs under my nose right now. Am I mad? No. But I don't feel good.

[Liam Jackson]

Ray, since my only copy of Pacific Between is in pixel form, you need to hurry and send me a hard-cover ARC. (The gas bill is due and I can use some extra $) ;)

[Niesta]

As someone who has worked in both the new and secondhand book businesses, a couple thoughts:

1) If reviewers and bookstore managers didn't sell ARCs, they would have to buy second homes just to store them all. Surely you'd rather they sold it secondhand than that they threw it in the recycler (and if they gave it away, that would still be a book the author didn't sell, thereby "depriving" her of sales, wouldn't it?)

2) The number of ARCs that get sold secondhand, compared to the number of copies a book typically sells, is insignificant. Trivial. More people read the book for free from the library, and you only get paid once for that copy. But nobody in their right mind (I hope) would argue that having your book in the library is a bad thing.

Sure, we'd all like to make a living at this. But if you begrudge the used book market its nickels and dimes, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Back when I did comic books, I always found that giving stuff out for free was a great way to increase sales. A lot of people didn't want to spend money on something they might not like, but if I could just get a little bit of my work into their hands, they would almost always come back and buy the rest of what I had for sale.

People who frequent used book stores frequent new book stores too, and if they are familiar with your work from the former, they're much more likely to pick up your latest work when it makes an appearance in the latter.

[veinglory]

I buy new and used books weekly. I think the reason Borders makes so much from me is that as a kid I could get paperbacks at the book exchange for 30c and hardbacks from the library for free. It like pushing any product, make it cheap and hook them for life ;)

[Julie Worth]

The answer to the dilemma is to dispense with hardbacks and print only 5-dollar mass market paperbacks that barely last through a reading.

[maestrowork]

1) If reviewers and bookstore managers didn't sell ARCs, they would have to buy second homes just to store them all. Surely you'd rather they sold it secondhand than that they threw it in the recycler (and if they gave it away, that would still be a book the author didn't sell, thereby "depriving" her of sales, wouldn't it?)


To be honest, I'd rather them give it away (to libraries, to schools, to prisons, etc.) than to sell them for $7 a piece. That's $7 they didn't earned.

My local reporter told me she gets 400 books a week. She could really make some nice chump change by just dumping the books every week for $1 a piece. But she doesn't.

[veinglory]

If the book isn't reviewed IMHO it shouldn;t be sold. If the book is reviewed you got at least a few hours of someone's time rather cheap.

[Julie Worth]

I buy new and used books weekly. I think the reason Borders makes so much from me is that as a kid I could get paperbacks at the book exchange for 30c and hardbacks from the library for free. It like pushing any product, make it cheap and hook them for life ;)

Psssst, kid, want to learn how to read?

[maestrowork]

If the book isn't reviewed IMHO it shouldn;t be sold. If the book is reviewed you got at least a few hours of someone's time rather cheap.

That I agree. What I am having trouble with is the "unreviewed/unread" copies being sold for 100% profit.

I guess I'm from an old school. For example, I receive copies of DVDs especially during award seasons. I love freebies and I appreciate them. But if I already have the DVDs, I'd give the extra ones away to friends or family. It never even occurs to me to sell them on eBay, etc. for $7 a piece. I guess I'm just too naive and foolish...

[clintl]

That's the thing. I do have a thing against selling ARCs for profit that you have not reviewed... that may lead to abuse -- boy, I can really make a lot of money by posing as a reviewer, then never review anything.



In my case, my book is just being released. So I feel very uncomfortable that someone is selling my ARCs under my nose right now. Am I mad? No. But I don't feel good.

Yes, I think in this situation, if ARCs are being sold that probably haven't been reviewed, and your book is just coming out, that's a valid concern.

[veinglory]

It seems to me like ARCs should be sent like most submissions. Query first then if they ask to see it they really should do the review unless it's really awful or not what it was presented as.

The common sitaution now is a lot of books sent and ignored which is a waste of everyone's time and resources.

[emeraldcite]

Two of my favorite authors whose books I buy in hardcover now were first purchased at a Goodwill for $.25 a pop.

I wouldn't have bought them off the shelf.

[Celia Cyanide]

It makes me sad to hear you say that, especially as a fellow writer.

Well, you can borrow books free from libraries. You can't go eat at the soup kitchen, just because you spent all your money on books. I agree with Ferret. I like to own copies of all books, even the ones I'm reading for the first time, but buying books is a priviledge, not A biological need.

[Niesta]

To be honest, I'd rather them give it away (to libraries, to schools, to prisons, etc.) than to sell them for $7 a piece. That's $7 they didn't earned.


People are allowed to sell their own property. At a profit, even. Would it be better if they waited until you were really really famous, and then sold it as a first edition for $500? They REALLY didn't earn that.

I'm not saying your feelings are unreasonable -- shoot, I'd be hurt if someone sold a book I'd given them, without even reading it. But I think I'd be more hurt that they hadn't read it, than that they got money for it.

Another thing about ARCs -- they come in different formats. Some publishers send out actual hard cover copies of the books (which are emminently re-sellable), others send cheap paperback galleys (which you can't resell nearly as easily because they're poor quality -- although maybe folks on Ebay won't be able to tell). I don't know how much say an author actually has in what kind of ARCs are produced, but since this seems to annoy you so much, maybe you could convince your publisher that you'd rather have galleys send out next time around.

Does the receipt of a real book vs. galley effect the amount that booksellers buy, or the kind of reviews you get? It never seemed to back when I was in the biz, but others may have differing opinions on that.

[clintl]

others send cheap paperback galleys (which you can't resell nearly as easily because they're poor quality -- although maybe folks on Ebay won't be able to tell).

That depends. These editions can be collector's items because not many are printed.

[Niesta]

That depends. These editions can be collector's items because not many are printed.

Ah. There was no market for them at my scholarly/antiquarian used bookshop, but I'm willing to believe there are collectors for almost anything.

[crosseyed reader]

That I agree. What I am having trouble with is the "unreviewed/unread" copies being sold for 100% profit.
Yabut, how do you know if your book was reviewed or not? I assume your pub sent ARCs out a long time ago, right? It sounds as though you're assuming your book wasn't reviewed.

Personally, I don't have a problem with selling ARCs. Like someone else said, there aren't that many running around anyway. What else are they supposed to do with them? ARCs aren't standard looking books, so they can't be donated to libraries. May as well sell them.

Another thing; some of these places that say they have an ARC or book for sale may very well be trying the ol' bait and switch. three different times I've gone to order a book from one of these types and they emailed me back saying that, er, there must have been a mix-up in their database, and they didn't actually have the book in stock. Did I want to order something else? Hmm.

So, cheer up, Maestro, they might not really have your book!

[kdnxdr]

This is such a gret conversation!