Angels and demons

[MrAngelwithnowings]

angels and demons are what i truly believe in...

i was shot several times at point blank range from an attacker...i nearly died except i was saved by a Miracle

The District Attorney prosecuted him in court and his defense was "Not Guilty by reason of insanity"

i truly think he was truly possessed

I still have nightmares of that day but i wouldn't hesitate to help others in need once again

*I saw Exorcist...I liked it alot even though they could have had more good versus evil battles.*

I strongly believe a person that follows the Bible and God cannot dismiss angels or demons. They never retired...we just stopped believing.

[LiamJackson]

They never retired...we just stopped believing.
I agree, Mr. A.

[Writing Again]

Quite correct. The Bible takes an unalterable stand on these issues. You cannot believe in the Bible and God without believing in Angels, Lucifer, etc.

Belief has little to do with writing horror stories however. The author can use any belief system to acquire opponents for the lead character.

[Flawed Creation]

speaking of which, where can i get some good info on angels and demons (especially angels.)

it's research for a book.

i intend to the read the old and new testaments, but haven't yet.

i'll starts tomorrow... anywhere else i should look?

[HConn]

Here's a book, (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/002907052X/qid=1094269853/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/002-5397759-2289617?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) but I haven't read it myself.

You should check with your local library.

[EggMcGuffin]

"i was shot several times at point blank range from an attacker...i nearly died except i was saved by a Miracle"

naw bro you were saved by a dr.

"The District Attorney prosecuted him in court and his defense was "Not Guilty by reason of insanity""

thats a common plea for a lot of crimes of passion.

"i truly think he was truly possessed"

naw bro he was prolly just angry or drugged out or whatevs. lots of people lose their cool, then get violent. just like you threaten people on message boards when you dun like to hear what theyre sayin.

[MacAl Stone]

Heh--yeah, but don't you sometimes wonder if there really is more happening on a non-physical plane, that is nevertheless "real"?

[EggMcGuffin]

absolutely. wonder that all the time and even believe it does happen. beyond the veil, as it were. sure as hell dont believe some demon possessed a man to shoot angelwithnowings, tho. if hes as tough as he claims to be hes probably grown up in some rough hoods and in those places peeps get shot all the time for reasons as simple as they dont like your shoes or they didnt like the way you looked at them. sometimes youre just in the wrong place at the wrong time. demonic possession? negro please. guy prolly just didnt like his face or attitude. or mistook him for a real crook. but he survived and now he thinks hes had a mystical experience. its a common psychological condition. ptsd.

lets put it another way--if a demon wanted his life hed be dead. or possessed himself. i mean, demons, if you wanna believe in them, can do just about anything. and a lot of peeps are killed by other peeps a lot more easily. did the demon have a particular motivation to attack him? not. whatev.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

Funny how you post here, Egg.

You assume I was shot for being a crook, eh mister "never bled in his life except for a papercut"?

Funny, I never heard of crooks having the District Attorney as their attorney. The D.A. was mine.

Oh wait...i forgot...you never been to court except watch Judge Judy on TV

LOL

I was shot saving other people I didnt even know. THATS RIGHT EGG! I'D EVEN TAKE A BULLET FOR YOU, YOUR MOM, YOUR SISTER, ETC IF YOU WERE IN DANGER! I have the bullets still in my body and the scars to show I can back up my words...and did.

Write that on your forehead so you dont forget.

And why do you use a racial slur so much? You're not from the hood. You're probably from beverly hills

LOL

I never had a choice to live in the world I was in. Its life...i dealt with it. You seem to be blaming me that your life was so good. LOL

Be thankful you had a good life and a good home. Many of us used to dream that as kids. You lived it.

[refriedwhiskey]

You assume I was shot for being a crook, eh mister "never bled in his life except for a papercut"?
Angel, you ought to work on your reading comprehension. That's not what Egg said at all.

And if you really were shot saving a couple of people's lives, that's great, and I respect that and admire it. Seriously.

But I respect it and admire it a little less every time you bring it up as if it makes you superior to anyone you happen to be arguing with.

Being a hero is great. Repeatedly boasting about being a hero and acting superior...not so much.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

I say I was shot but hardly say why...

So many assume drive-by, "crook", etc

Thats when I say HOW AND WHY i was shot

Its the whole reason i'm here..for my autobiography...

I dont go around everyday flaunting "hey i was shot saving people"

If not for my autobiography, I wouldnt even mention it to anyone here....trust me

awww...Forget it....i'm here to learn then go. I know when i'm the outsider

[EggMcGuffin]

er i said you were shot cos he MISTOOK you for a crook. meanin i didnt think you were one but he did cos he was pumped on sumthin or whatev. do you speakee the english? and i didnt use a racial slur against you. negro pls is not a racial slur, its an expression like, "whatev". i think you knew that, and jes about everyone knows that, but especially you since you talk a big game about growin up in the REAL hood while im the one from beverly hills or malibu, etc. :rofl

you know, despite the heroic deed, angel plays one other role even better and that's the victim.

[MacAl Stone]

okay, fellas--even the two of you have got to be getting a little sick of this converstion--We're all here to write, to talk about writing, and think about writing.

Let's all just back off and let it go.

You're here to write? Great. Let's talk about that. You write horror? You read horror? You watch horror? You got a good true-life ghost story, even--let's hear it. That's something we all have in common, and that's the middle ground from which we can build a dialogue.

[EggMcGuffin]

i understand, mac. and im sorry. but you read this whole thing--you know i didnt call him the things hes accusin me of callin him. either hes misunderstood or sumthin else, i dunno. i dun mind if someone takes issue with sumthin i said, but taking issue with sumthin i didnt say is reachin a bit much.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

My original post was here since mid-Aug until it got distorted and attacked last night...ironic

My apologies Mac. I'm here to learn the craft and read other's insight on this horror genre for different reasons.

If anything, to try and better understand the mind of certain people that do what they do in the real world...

As they say...

Art imitates life....

.

[refriedwhiskey]

Angel, in this thread you say:
i was shot several times at point blank range from an attacker...i nearly died except i was saved by a Miracle

The District Attorney prosecuted him in court and his defense was "Not Guilty by reason of insanity"

Multiple references to one guy. But in the poll thread in Share Your Work, you now say it was two guys, and the district attorney's case was against two guys.

I just don't think it's fair for you to accuse Egg of distorting your story when you've distorted it yourself.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

There were 2 attackers.

1 of them had a gun and shot me.

Distorted? No...

I have DA & court records, newspaper articles, etc etc

So dont believe it...It makes no difference to me. I dont care.

I have the U.S. legal system and the media to back up my story..they were all involved in it and reported on it as well...

Take care and have a nice day fried

[refriedwhiskey]

I'm not necessarily saying I don't believe you, Angel. I'm just saying you have to understand why people might call it into question when the details seem to change from moment to moment.

It's still puzzling to me why you refer to the D.A. prosecuting only one guy when there were two assailants. Maybe if we had access to the police and media reports, it would be clearer why there seem to be contradictions, but we don't -- unless you can provide them or point us to them.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

LOL

You're telling me..scan all the court documents and newspaper articles, etc to convince some anonymous guy on a Horror Board that was just talking smack?

lolololol

And who are you? My editor, agent, publisher?

:rofl

Would you want me to send my query, synopsis, chapter by chapter, and entire manuscript for your approval also?

:rofl

When my book is out research it ALL you want.

I dont need to prove anything to you fried. If you dont believe me...WHO CARES. I sure dont.

Whether you believe the truth or not has NO bearing whatsoever on its future.

Trust me.


:rofl

[refriedwhiskey]

Sorry, Angel. I figured since you were writing a book about the experience, you might actually have the information handy and be able to say where the incident was reported. I thought since it happened to you and you're writing it, you wouldn't need to scan through court documents and newspapers to find a record of it.

I don't need to "approve" of your story. It's truthfulness or lack thereof have no impact on my life. But you can bet that if you want to sell it to a legit publisher, your editor is going to want to see documentation proving it's true. Even if you don't feel you need that documentation to write it, you should have it handy to show to any editor who might be considering whether or not he wants to publish it.

(On an unrelated note: I think it's sort of funny how you keep talking about how I'm "some anonymous guy" on a message board. Are you saying "MrAngelwithnowings" is your real name? :lol )

[MrAngelwithnowings]

I'm commenting how some guy I dont even know on a message forum is asking me to send him court documents, etc. That is what I meant by anonymous.

...and I DO have the documents in my safe. Also framed on my wall to remind me everyday what happened.

back-up copies are also with the courthouse as well the newspaper. They track these type of guys for missing children cases, unsolved murders, etc

So, I'm not worried whatsoever about any publisher asking me for documentation. If you're not involved with my book then you wont see it until its in book form and available worldwide.

If you're still curious..buy the book when its out. There's alot waiting to read it.

If not, I dont care.

I'm not doing it for you or anyone else. I'm doing it for ME. If you cant understand that...oh well

Life goes on...

Have a nice day Fried. Good luck in your endeavors as always.

[refriedwhiskey]

Fair enough. I'll be watching for that book at my local Barnes & Noble, Angel. :D

[MacAl Stone]

I'm going to let this conversation go for a really short while longer. Egg--I very much appreciate that you've resisted the urge to re-engage. Thank you.

At this point, Mr. A--I really think you've either obligated yourself to provide a little corroboration for your claims, or else you need to just pipe down about it and move on.

Refried (why would anyone fry perfectly good whiskey ONCE even, btw?) I'm asking you to let this go, if Mr. Angel will do likewise.

Otherwise, I will confer with my illustrious co-mod (who has a MUCH scarier temper than mine) And we will likely dream up some heinous and odious consequences for anyone still involved.

Maybe something involving hot chili peppers and optic nerves...I dunno. Spooky is better at that stuff than me.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

delete this thread please

[refriedwhiskey]

Refried (why would anyone fry perfectly good whiskey ONCE even, btw?) I'm asking you to let this go, if Mr. Angel will do likewise.
Already done, whether it's bilateral or not. :grin

(No threat necessary, but the bit about chili peppers and optic nerves was very appropriate for the horror forum. :wha :eek :lol )

[MacAl Stone]

Mr.Angel--I will not delete this thread. More people have posted here than just you. If you want to delete your original post, those are YOUR words, and you have every right to do so.

I'm not going to nuke a whole thread because one person doesn't like it.

Mac

[MrAngelwithnowings]

I dont mind the thread...it was fine from mid-august UNTIL last night.

Coincidence how people came in to start trouble?

Or spill-over from the Share Your Work Board yesterday?

Personal vendetta?

Explain how this thread about angels and demons relates to Jenna creating 2 boards or one on Share Your Work Board?

Leave it up then...I see whats happening anyways Mac

[MacAl Stone]

So lets actually TALK about the subject of the thread--while we're all here.

To what do we attribute the recent upsurge of interest in the whole topic of guardian angels? TV shows, books, etc--all centered around the idea that angels exist (which, by extension, would also validate the existence of demons. Ppl are a LOT more reluctant to talk about that, though.

Mr. Angel, don't try to bully or manipulate me. Nothing is "happening" I am not siding with anyone, but someone doesn't "own" a thread because he began that thread.

respectfully,
Mac

[MrAngelwithnowings]

I wasnt bullying. I was seeking clarification and understanding. I apologize if it seemed that way.

And thanks for putting us back on the subject I started...Angels and demons.

I actually believe they do exist. I think those that do evil to others are influenced or possessed.

I also think good angels protect, shield, and defend people from their harm

The other night a car drove the wrong-way in the street. We didnt even see him until he was almost head-on. We swerved in time and he drove between our car and the one next to us.

I thanked God for saving us.

Its one of those moments where your hair stands up on your neck.

I then see the news where over 200 children are massacred in russia by terrorists.

A lady missing from work found in her trunk

A newborn baby found dumped in a trash can with a plastic bag over his head and unbilical cord still attached...

I wonder what makes people actually do these bad things....

[shotgun mouth]

i think both angels and demons are very interesting story-wise, whether used comically (such as in GOOD OMENS) or seriously (such as any number of stephen king stories) because they present a dichotomy that people want to believe in -- and i'm not saying they're wrong to -- because you have black and white, bad and good, the cowboy in the black hat and the cowboy in the white hat, and it eliminates a lot of the gray areas that people have to live with in real life.

and the more complicated things get, the more gray areas in real life as we live it everyday, the more people respond to that kind of simplicity.

or not.

[Lori Basiewicz]

But, A, to say that all individuals who commit heinous acts are possessed, removes the freedom of choice by assuming that all individuals would choose good if they were not possessed.

[refriedwhiskey]

I think demons make great subject matter for horror stories, but in real life I think some people do evil things because some people are just f-cked.

I think some people are raised poorly, neglected or abused, and that leads them to do evil. And I think some people are just inherently f-cked and predisposed to evil.

The fact is, basic human nature is not very pretty. Our instincts are for survival and procreation and territoriality and domination, and that's about it -- we don't have any instincts for kindness or generosity. People who are basically good are that way because they learned to be good, and because they want to be good. Some people never learn, and some people just flat out don't want to.

Unfortunately, no demons are needed to explain the evil done by some humans.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

Satan and his demons (fallen angels) try to TEMPT us into doing evil. Satan CANNOT force anyone to do evil...only tempt us to do evil.

If a person "chooses" to act on that temptation then he or she commited the sin and no one else.

Satan's whole mission is to steer as many away from God as possible.

Many reject or deny God. By doing so they open themselves up to evil influence even more, since theres no protection or strength from God to fight or resist it. They are more prone to be influenced or "possessed" to commit evil acts toward others as well.

There are also those that commit sin in the name of God. Was it God that really told them to commit evil, kill or hurt others or was it their "choice" to do so? Yet they hide behind the Bible as if it gave them their righteous reason.

God does NOT break his own rules. He made a law that the wages of sin was death... This meant that sinners were doomed. God could have easily broke his own law but he didnt. To show this, God sent his only begotten son Christ to die on the cross for our sins instead. God loved us that much. If God didnt care about mankind, he wouldnt have sacrificed his own son at all.

So do I think people who do evil acts are possessed or influenced? Yes. They do so...by "choice."

Do I believe there is good in everyone? Yes. In different measures.

This is my religious belief.

[SpeedRacist]

I love writing about demons and angels, and both figure prominently in one of my on-going, hopefully to be finished sometime this lifetime novel about an angel who has adventure regarding her wings.


It's great story material, but to find a new and fresh way to describe and tell it is hard. I make my characters with shades of gray, even if they are supposed to be "good" and "evil".


but, people who do "bad" are not possessed, imo. It's just the absence of "good".

[Writing Again]

Flawed Creation asked
speaking of which, where can i get some good info on angels and demons (especially angels.) it's research for a book. i intend to the read the old and new testaments, but haven't yet. i'll starts tomorrow... anywhere else i should look?

As HConn points out there is a dictionary of Angels. There is also a dictionary of Demons; one of gods and goddesses; one of myths and legends; and one of heretics and heresys.

They are all interesting to read and all provide a wealth of ideas.

As I pointed out before, belief and disbelief have little to do with writing a good story. However if you are going to write a documented case based on trial transcrips and personal experience I would suggest you stick to the facts as they appear and can be verified.

If the defendent pleaded insanity then discuss insanity. If the man pleaded possession and was or was not declared insane because of it, then you may discuss possession.

Otherwise you run the risk of people viewing your book as a personal sermon rather than as a documentary with personal insights.

To put it another way you are going to have to decide at some point whether the purpose of your book is to persuade readers to your religious view of the case, or to share with them personal insights that go beyond the simple transcripts.

At some point you are going to have to decide what reaction you want people to have toward your book.

The average reader will find it fairly easy to put themselves in your place as being attacked by a criminal or a mad man.

They will find it harder to accept you were attacked by a man possessed by a demon. In truth if the premise of your book is the same as the premise of this thread, then you can expect a large portion of the population to react the same way many have reacted here.

You are experiencing a microcosm of what could be.
So I suggest you step back, take a deep breath and ponder the following questions:

What do I want to accomplish with my book?

What reaction do I want to my book?

What reaction can I reasonaly expect?

How will I deal with these reactions?

Who will read my book if I do one thing as opposed to who will read it if I do the other?

[Flawed Creation]

Mr. Angel.

I have a few questions. please don't view these as an attempt to bait you. i'm not being sarcastic. I hope that you have some answers, because my grasp of theology is poor.

before we begin, i'd like to tel you that we have different beliefs here. i don't belive in angels. or demons. in fact, my book, "Flawed Creation", is a deconstruction of the angel concept. an attempt to demonstrate that angels (or demons) couldn't exist.

that said, i hope you won't mind helping me out.

you say that satan's minions tempt people to do evil, but people choose of their own free willl. you mention posession. if a person is possessed, they have no volition, do they? please explain this.

furthermore, i think you said that all human misdeeds are the result of demons/ the devil. (maybe that was a mistaken impression. please correct me if i misinterpreted you.) I have done nothing (seriously) illegal or unethical, but have been tempted to do unethical things before. I don't recall any demons. or are they more subtle than that? have you ever been tempted by a demon?

how, fundamentally,are angels and demons constructed? (this is the point that makes me unable to belive in angels. no creature can be wholly good while possessing fre will, because that includes the ability to choose evil. if constrained to act in a "good" way at all times, they become essentially robots, not truely intelligent beings. in my WIP, several angels, are tempted, like satan, and fall into evil- maybe. they think they're on the side of good. which is another problem. if the good course isn't obvious, how would all angels agree? and if they don't agree, then they aren't all good, are they?)
what makes them different from humans?

[nolabohemian]

Flawed Creation said:
this is the point that makes me unable to belive in angels. no creature can be wholly good while possessing fre will, because that includes the ability to choose evil. if constrained to act in a "good" way at all times, they become essentially robots, not truely intelligent beings.

Remember that demons are, according to scripture (which, I for one, read as rich myth, just like Norse, or Greek, mythology) fallen angels which made the choice to stand up to God and not be made second class citizens, as it were. I don't think that the remaining angels are "good" but rather, since they live in the presense of God 24/7 and can answer to him directly, how could they not work on his behalf by choice? There is little chance for them to be tempted otherwise when he's looking over their shoulder, micro-managing! God himself is not always a "good" force. He plays favorites, he punishes people who do not believe in him, he is vengeful. I think there are plenty of other reasons not to believe!

[Writing Again]

Not all angels are "goody goody" in the terms most people think of them. There are, if I remember correctly, seven different basic classes of angels, each performing different functions.

One of those groups performs the function of "Avenging Angel" the kind you do not want to meet because it is visiting "The Wrath of God" upon someone. Hopefully not you.

Angels are not all good in the sense of "sweet, loving, kind, noble, generous." What they are is good in the sense that they obey God and "Do God's Will." whatever that may be.

Demons are those fallen angels who do not obey God or do God's will.

Remember in Genesis love is defined as obedience and perfect love as perfect obedience. This concept has little to do with our modern day Christian concept of love as defined by Jesus in the cornfield.

I'm not sure where the concept of "guardian angel" came from. I do not recall reading about them in either the old or the new testament.

[Flawed Creation]

... in what sense is a angel visitng the wrath of god upon evil folk not good?

plenty of fantasy heroez do that.

[MacAl Stone]

... in what sense is a angel visitng the wrath of god upon evil folk not good?

Flawed--I think that depends completely on your definition of good, and by extension then, you also need a specific definition of evil.

[LiamJackson]

He plays favorites, he punishes people who do not believe in him, he is vengeful. I think there are plenty of other reasons not to believe!

Interesting points, one and all, and debated for centuries by both the learned and unlearned.

I do think that perhaps those points need not lead one to a conclusion of non-belief. I don't value the actions and agendas of many politicians, though I certainly believe they exist. :)

[refriedwhiskey]

He plays favorites, he punishes people who do not believe in him, he is vengeful. I think there are plenty of other reasons not to believe!
But if you don't believe, then He doesn't do any of those things. Since He doesn't exist.

Quite the paradox you've got there. ;)

[EggMcGuffin]

i think angelwithnowings has left da building.

[MrAngelwithnowings]

I'm still here

just refocusing my built-in anger toward writing...

It seems to be working...i impressed a few mods with my work lol

maybe i need to get mad more often

:rofl

brb...need to get my writing stuff done so i can go to the strip club

:money :kiss :money :kiss :money

:rofl

[Flawed Creation]

Liam-

while politicians may not be perfect, that doesn't mean they don't exist. on this point we are agreed.

angels, however, are different.

angels, in my mind, have always represented perfection. complete good. supreme wisdom. unearthly beauty.

if angels are found to be anything other than pure good then IMO they aren't angels.

therefore, there are no angels.

[refriedwhiskey]

That logic is vaguely circular in shape. :D

[LiamJackson]

Diversity of opinion makes the world go 'round, and all that stuff.

Consider the following:
Angels/demons, liberal/conservative, crappy chicken salad/delicious entree'.

None of those items need conform to my own ideals in order to exist. None are subject to my own interpretation in order to have validation.

Let's take "liberalism" for example. There are textbook definitions of the word, yet most of us have very distinct ideals of what constitutes "liberal thinking." And while there maybe be many prominent common denomintors in our collective ideals, there are without question, many devisive points, as well.

However, regardless of my own interpretation, or yours, liberalism certainly exists. The Truth isn't dependent upon individual belief. The Truth is.

Reality is a different animal, altogether. Reality for an individual may be shaped by many things, including circumstance, mental hard-wiring, environment, faith, etc... (My new dictionary states that the word "altogether doesn't exist. My old dictionary adamantly disagrees. For the record, I can categorically assert that the word does in fact, exist. *see first line of this paragraph.)

Truth, on the other hand, doesn't require our validation. It just "is."

Some claim to know the Truth about the subject matter at hand. I can't argue, as I simply don't know. (I have my own opinion, based on many things, but that's another story)

What I can argue is that one person's reality may be another's fantasy. The Truth is wholly independent of either. I look forward to a day when I know the "truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."
I get a kick out of "knowing." Until then, I'll just meander along in my own little reality. :)

Until then...
http://www.geocities.com/popcop157/god.gif

Damn! Talk about some circular logic! :grin

[macalicious731]

Liam, I love reading posts of yours, just like this one. You never cease to amaze me!

Cool. :grin

[MrAngelwithnowings]

Concerning this subject,

I've read all the posts and refrain from debating.

Why for?

Its been debated for centuries--even to this day. It will continue to be debated long after as well.

There are those that believe and those that dont believe. No one can force a person to believe. It must be done by "choice" and not by force.

Even those that believe sometimes contradict. Why? It has to do with Bible interpretation. Thats why theres so many religions.

There are also those in the grey area in between that believe some aspects of God, The Bible, his angels but not others.

To others, it will still be fiction, fantasy, or make-believe.

Does it matter? Not to me. Not to many others that truly believe in God and the Bible either.

God and the Bible will always be questioned by some skeptics. Those that truly believe will continue as they have been for centuries.

So take care all. Let me leave so you can all debate angels, etc still

:rofl

[LiamJackson]

It has to do with Bible interpretation. Thats why theres so many religions.

And we haven't really explored the non-Judeo-Christian belief systems.

With regard to fiction writing, I think it's safe to say that historically, "religion(s)" have provided writers with more fodder than most any other source.

[luckky one]

he was prolly just angry or drugged out or whatevs. lots of people lose their cool, then get violent.

I would call those things "demons."

Angels and demons do exist.

But Demons aren't always easily distingiushed by their black hats and lurking demeanors.

And Angels aren't always beautiful, shining creatures of light.

Remember, Lucifer literally means, "light giver."

We all have potential for good, or evil.

We can either choose the angels, or the demons to follow.

And that's the scariest thing in real life...the essential element of HORROR!!:snoopy

[XThe NavigatorX]

Man, I wish I had seen this thread earlier.

Angels, demons and their relationships with one another is my favorite subject. The dictionary of angels listed is a great book. There is a ton of stuff out there on the net about both angels and demons. You just have to be careful when you're doing your research to know the source. There are Christian angels, Muslim angels, new age angels, etc. etc., and often they contradict themselves.

If you're looking to read books, both fiction and non-fiction, about either or both subjects, let me know, and I can list 1,000 of them.

Of course I have to list this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931095515) book first. :smokin