Are Editors a necessary evil?

[drevil915]

Greetings,

I'm a 16 year old and I'm nearing the end of my manuscript before I start sending it off to publishers and agents and such.

I've been reading a lot of advice that says you should hire an editor to make sure your work flows nicely and is up to par with the industry. As I've been working on this thing since last August, it's hard for me to judge it without bias anymore.

Are editors necessary? Will I lose interests if I don't get one?

They're just so expensive, I'd like to know if there are any alternatives.

Thanks, Jason Iacono

[Aconite]

Jason, that talk about needing to hire someone to "professionally edit" your MS is hogwash put out by people who want your money. Ignore it. Having your manuscript professionally edited is not only not necessary, but a strike against you in nearly all cases, since it's one of the dreaded signs of the amateur.

Your MS needs to be as perfect as you can make it. Critiques are invaluable for getting perspective on what's working and what's not. AW has the Share Your Work forum, where you can post your work and ask for critiques; there are also online groups like Critters that you can join. What you should not do is to pay someone to edit your manuscript. For in-depth discussions of why not, visit the Index to Agents, Publishers, and Others thread on the Bewares and Background Check board, and look up the threads on paid editing.

In any dealings in publishing, remember Yog's Law: Money flows toward the author. This is also stated as: The only place an author signs a check is on the back. (Yog is our own James D. Macdonald.)

Welcome to AW. Hope you like it here. Good luck with your manuscript.

[Jamesaritchie]

Greetings,

I'm a 16 year old and I'm nearing the end of my manuscript before I start sending it off to publishers and agents and such.

I've been reading a lot of advice that says you should hire an editor to make sure your work flows nicely and is up to par with the industry. As I've been working on this thing since last August, it's hard for me to judge it without bias anymore.

Are editors necessary? Will I lose interests if I don't get one?

They're just so expensive, I'd like to know if there are any alternatives.

Thanks, Jason Iacono

Editors are necessary, hired editors are not. You need to learn the same skills any editor has, anyway, so you may as well learn while you're young. In all honesty, I don't know a single pro writer who became a pro by hiring an editor.

I hope you're seriously studying grammar and punctuation while still in school. You must know a good deal about each to be a good writer. You do not, however, have to be an expert on either. If you are, and if you love to read, you're way ahead of the pack.

If you need help, grab a grammar book and ask friends who know more than you do. And you can learn a great deal online, both from websites that teach grammar, and from forums such as this one.

Don't rush things. You're still young enough to soak up knowledge without breaking a sweat. Take advantage of this. Many want to write, few want to actually read a book on grammar. Be the exception.

[Brandon Kerlee]

...but I think the consensus on this board is no, you don't need to pay an editor to look at your work. Mr. Macdonald has a law (Yog's law) that states "Money flows toward the writer."

If you're a writer, it's your job to write. If you worked as a fast-food clerk, would you pay for the napkins and wrappers that you gave to each customer?

If the work is publishable, they'll edit it for you. At least this is how I understand the process to work...

Brandon Kerlee

[Linda Adams]

Hi, Jason

A lot of unpublished writers go to editing services thinking magic will happen (get published). The truth is that getting a manuscript professionally edited is NOT a guarantee that your manuscript will magically get accepted and published. Nor is a publisher or agent going to set your manuscript on a "possible" pile simply because you paid to have it edited.

Most professionally published writers are horrified when someone mentions paying for editing because you can learn the skills yourself. So ... if you need help with your grammar and punctuation, you may be able to ask an English teacher at your school for assistance. She can certainly direct you to some good resources that may help. Once you gain the knowledge, use it all the time. People sometimes get sloppy in emails or message posts, but all of that is a way to practice the skills.

And if you think you want someone to comment on the story, see if there's a critique group/club at your school. If not, you might ask your teacher to help you start one. You can also try your hand at giving critiques here in the Share Your Work section.

The best part about the two suggestions above is that they don't cost you anything all except time. Good luck!

[drevil915]

Thanks so far for the advice.

Many times, the use of sentence fragments and other taboo grammer is used to get a specific mood or feeling to the work. I don't want to leave things like that and then get slammed for grammical errors. You know?

Jason

[majiklmoon]

Jason, if you are still in school, why not have one of your teachers/professors take a look at what you've written and help you proof it?

[KTC]

That's good advice, Majik, but only if he takes it to a reliable teacher. When I was a kid I had a very bad experience while opening up to a teacher about my writing dreams. She shot me down completely. I believed her and stopped writing. If Jason takes his work to a teacher, he should make sure it's one who will be supportive of his dreams.


Jason, get others to read your work and critique it. Do you have a local writing circle? With a little investigating, you may be able to find a local writer, or even a writer in residence at a school or library, to look at your piece. Get your parents involved in this process. Are they behind you in your dreams to be a writer? If they are, they will help you to connect with a local writer. This is something that you should not take on by yourself. Your parents should approach them, let them know the situation. You should NOT pay somebody to look at your manuscript. I don't know if it's the same there, but in Canada Writers in Res. are usually free of charge, paid by government grants.

I wish you the best of luck with your writing.

Kevin

[Linda Adams]

Thanks so far for the advice.

Many times, the use of sentence fragments and other taboo grammer is used to get a specific mood or feeling to the work. I don't want to leave things like that and then get slammed for grammical errors. You know?

Jason

English classes teach the formalized form of writing. You would, if you were in a business environment, lean towards using that formalized form of writing. That, of course, means no sentence fragments, not starting a sentence with but, etc. And there may be some other places where that formalized writing is required also.

Novels, on the other hand, are not formalized writing. It can be perfectly acceptable to use sentence fragments in a novel. I say 'can be' because there's a huge difference between knowing what the rules are and breaking and not knowing what the rules are and breaking them. For example, if you use a sentence fragment to heighten the impact of the sentence and the mood, that's an acceptable use. And because you know the rules, you pick and choose what works the best in the story for maximum impact. On the other hand, someone who doesn't know grammar really well might use sentence fragments through out the story without even knowing it, and that comes across as poorly written.

[Danger Jane]

Many times, the use of sentence fragments and other taboo grammer is used to get a specific mood or feeling to the work. I don't want to leave things like that and then get slammed for grammical errors. You know?

This is where you have to just learn grammar inside and out. Once you know the rules, you also know where the loopholes fit in. And once you know how to form a proper sentence, you'll be able to bend the rules. However, you also have to know the happy medium between deliberation and sloppiness. Fragments can be great for emphasis. They can also look very sloppy if used too often.

[MadScientistMatt]

Thanks so far for the advice.

Many times, the use of sentence fragments and other taboo grammer is used to get a specific mood or feeling to the work. I don't want to leave things like that and then get slammed for grammical errors. You know?

Jason

Sometimes bad grammar is good novel writing. It is definitely appropriate for dialog; you write that the way people really do talk rather than how a textbook says they ought to talk. There are times in a novel when you can get away with it in narrative, too, if you are going for a specific effect. If you know the rules well enough, you will be able to know when, on rare occasions, it's best to break them. And a good editor will know this too.

[pianoman5]

Bear in mind also, Jason, that the skill/craft/art that we call 'writing' is a misnomer - as many wise authors have observed, it should be called 'rewriting', because that's where the real skill lies.

Creating an engaging work of fiction and then polishing it into a potentially publishable work are two sides of the one coin. The first draft is (ideally, for most writers, it seems) the phase where you allow your creative urges to run riot and create something fresh and original, with only minor regard for grammatical accuracy and overall coherence. Quite a few writers are able to do this successfully.

It's the second phase where most fall down. Subsequent passes of your ms are where you fix the lapses of grammar, point-of-view issues, pace, consistency, plausible characterisation, plot backfilling and setup, superfluous-character elimination and the like - the myriad things you have to get right to make your work hang together as a whole. This is where the succesful writer has to don an editor's hat and ruthlessly weed out everything that doesn't belong and/or replace passages to make them work better.

This is a hard-won skill, and only (typically) comes after a few false starts. It's often said that you have to write a million words of crap before the good stuff emerges, and most successful writers confirm that this is the case. It's not the originality of thought and creation that's lacking, but more the developed critical faculties that enable you to recognise crap, because it stinketh and doesn't belong in your otherwise fragrant ms.

Those who can't be bothered to learn this skill are the ones that point to the publishing sucess of sub-literate scrawlers whose work was fixed up by their agent or publisher to make it printable, or to certain well-known writers whose spelling and punctuation are legendarily appalling. But those exceptions do not prove a rule. The only reason they get away with it is because, as UJ frequently points out, "story trumps everything". Writers who are so good (or have established a reputation as a best seller) that they don't need to worry about these things are extremely thin on the ground.

Professional editors (evil or otherwise) exist not to fix stuff you should have done yourself, but to cooperatively make something that's basically good even better. They are, effectively, a qualified resource of second opinion - like one doctor to another. It's not a doctor/ill-informed patient relationship.

[BuffStuff]

Editors themselves, as an entity and the function they provide, are necessary. Hiring one before you submit your work to an agent or publisher is most definitely not necessary.

[majiklmoon]

That's good advice, Majik, but only if he takes it to a reliable teacher. When I was a kid I had a very bad experience while opening up to a teacher about my writing dreams. She shot me down completely. I believed her and stopped writing. If Jason takes his work to a teacher, he should make sure it's one who will be supportive of his dreams.


Kevin

ack...my eyes and heart are bleeding the thought of that happening to any student. I would NEVER ever should down a student of mine in that way. Even if it's the worst piece of writing I've ever seen, I find a positive in it and celebrate that success with them. Of course, I work with elementary students, but still...What gives anybody the right to shoot down the dreams of another pserson. I am so sorry that happened to you, and so glad you didn't let it stop you forever!

[Aconite]

Many times, the use of sentence fragments and other taboo grammer is used to get a specific mood or feeling to the work. I don't want to leave things like that and then get slammed for grammical errors. You know?Working with an editor is not at all like having your paper graded in English class. An editor's job is much bigger than smacking your fingers for misused commas. A good editor--employed by the publishing house purchasing your book, not by you--will point out places where the plot is weak, a character isn't realistic, the pace is too slow, a scene is unnecessary, and so on. An editor works with you to help make your work the best it can be. A good editor is a blessing. Treasure your editor.

[reph]

The first draft is (ideally, for most writers, it seems) the phase where you allow your creative urges to run riot and create something fresh and original, with only minor regard for grammatical accuracy....
There it is again, that strange idea that getting the grammar right is the hard part. Is this some sort of urban legend?

[Jamesaritchie]

There it is again, that strange idea that getting the grammar right is the hard part. Is this some sort of urban legend?



It must be. Getting the grammar right should be the easy part, and anyone who wants to be a writer should be able to do this while drunk. Getting the story and the characters right should be the hard part.

[pianoman5]

Well, I'd like to think that only those who are fluent and proficient in their native language would write stuff and submit it, having made sure it's fit to be read by another human.

I understand, however, that even a cursory examination of a typical slush pile is enough to suggest that this is not so.

It's arguable that being able to write correctly should be the first prerequisite for anyone seeking a career in writing, but who's gonna stop those who can't? There are plenty out there who can can construct a whole world but not a whole sentence. They're to be encouraged to learn enough to get it right, so that their imagination can take flight in the reader's mind and not just their own.

[Jamesaritchie]

Well, I'd like to think that only those who are fluent and proficient in their native language would write stuff and submit it, having made sure it's fit to be read by another human.

I understand, however, that even a cursory examination of a typical slush pile is enough to suggest that this is not so.

It's arguable that being able to write correctly should be the first prerequisite for anyone seeking a career in writing, but who's gonna stop those who can't? There are plenty out there who can can construct a whole world but not a whole sentence. They're to be encouraged to learn enough to get it right, so that their imagination can take flight in the reader's mind and not just their own.



No one can stop those who don't know proper grammar and punctuation from writing and submitting, nor should they. But agents and editors stop them from getting past the slush pile. The slush pile is the Great Wall of China.

Grammar and punctuation should have been learned in junior high school, and certainly long before high school graduation, so it is annoying in the extreme when adults who wish to be writers refuse to spend a couple of months learning grammar, rather than writing stuff that will never make it past the Great Wall.

[veronie]

However, it is entirely possible to suck royally at grammar until after you graduate college and land a job as a copy editor and then say to yourself, "I guess I should learn this grammar stuff now." I did. :) It's never too late to learn it, and the beauty of it is, once you got it, you pretty much got it. And it can be really fun too. (I never thought I'd say that when I was in high school.)

[reph]

However, it is entirely possible to suck royally at grammar until after you graduate college and land a job as a copy editor....
Is there some part of the world where a person who doesn't know grammar can get a job as a copy editor?

("Graduate from college...")

[Jamesaritchie]

However, it is entirely possible to suck royally at grammar until after you graduate college and land a job as a copy editor and then say to yourself, "I guess I should learn this grammar stuff now." I did. :) It's never too late to learn it, and the beauty of it is, once you got it, you pretty much got it. And it can be really fun too. (I never thought I'd say that when I was in high school.)


I would not want to write for a pubisher who gave a copy editing job to someone lousy at grammar, passing a grammar test is part of the hiring procedure everywhere I know, and I definitely would not let a copy editor touch my manuscript who was learning on the job.

But you're right, it is never too late to learn.

[drevil915]

My problem isn't gammer. My characters are fully fleshed out. But the way I write is to do a quick first draft, which is always very broad and generalized. Then, I go back with a pen and see that I have to flesh out certain scenes and dialogues, in some cases ading scenes. My first draft was a simple outline clocking in at a little over 200 pages. Now, it's ballooning to over 400.

I think obsess over it, even bringing my tattered manuscripts to school to work on them.

But yeah, so the hard part is definately going back and adding description, because I get this sensation that I've already used this description or that.

Maybe I will little pieces of it by my freshman english teacher.

Thanks, Jason Iacono

[ChunkyC]

Sounds to me like you've caught 'the bug', Jason. Ponder the advice in this thread and keep on writing. Good luck!

[Vomaxx]

My problem isn't gammer.

Is it spelling? :)

[veronie]

Is there some part of the world where a person who doesn't know grammar can get a job as a copy editor?

Well, it's an long story. But yes, when I first got hired as a copy editor, I was lousy at grammar. (For the record, I wasn't looking to be hired as a copy editor, but the small paper was desperate.)

("Graduate from college...")

Geez Reph, you are soooo picky. :)

[reph]

I would not want to write for a pubisher who gave a copy editing job to someone lousy at grammar, passing a grammar test is part of the hiring procedure everywhere I know, and I definitely would not let a copy editor touch my manuscript who was learning on the job.
Where else can copy editors learn? I learned a lot of copy editing on the job, but until I'd been there a while, the boss/mentor reviewed my work before typesetting, and I already knew grammar.

Geez Reph, you are soooo picky.I know. I prefer to think of it as "careful."