Ancient History

[Puma]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum are interested in ancient history/archaeology? If you are interested in ancient history, do you have a specific area of interest?

I'm interested in all areas of the world; but have the most knowledge in midwestern US archaeology. I'm also fascinated by the similarities in traditional stories from widely separated cultural groups. Puma

[LloydBrown]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum are interested in ancient history/archaeology? If you are interested in ancient history, do you have a specific area of interest?

::Raises hand:: over here!

Lots of areas of interest--too many to name specific time periods, cultures, or areas.

[Medievalist]

I'm interested in archaeology and prehistory in general, but I'm particularly interested in inscriptions and the history of writing, and in Indo-European cultures, particularly the ancient Celts, insular and continental.

[stumpfoot]

Ancient seafarers intrest me.

[Puma]

I wanted to be an archaeologist too but at the time I was most interested in pre-Columbian central America. My senior year in college I realized that archaeologists would starve if there weren't big grants from National Geo. And so, I putter with Ohio archaeology. I find all areas of prehistory fascinating. Puma

[stumpfoot]

I think if you put anything old in front of a history geek (which I'm) they will find it interesting.

[Puma]

There's an interesting stone "fort" in Ohio that predates the first settlers in the area. The fort is small (14' square), tall enough that there was a loft, one door. The fort is constructed of hewn stone. On three sides of the fort there are slit windows that are tapered on the inside to allow an archer optional angles for shooting (very similar to European bailey castle construction). One of the suppositions as to the forts origin is Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd, a Prince of Wales who is said to have sailed west about 1170 (and supposedly ended up with the Modoc Indians out in the Dakotas).

The local historical society has a few items that have been found near the fort. One of them is a mariners compass, hand drawn and painted (?). The compass has a fleur de lis at the top, and interestingly has 90 degrees at both the East and West points. The center support for the needle is a four sided pyramid with tiny pieces of what may be pink coral set around the base. I haven't been able to find anything similar in researching. The fort is near the Tuscarawas River.

Has anyone else heard of anything similar, or of Madoc, or know anything about mariner's compasses? The fort would make a really interesting historical non-fiction or fiction work; but I wouldn't want to use it without being able to confirm more about it's origins. Puma

[Evaine]

I've been to Rhos-on-Sea, in North Wales, to visit the chapel on the beach from which Madoc is supposed to have sailed.

It's one of those stories which should be true.

[arrowqueen]

Yes, I find it all fascinating too.

Shame you're not here tonight. There's a programme on BBC2 that combines both writing and history: 'Mary Renault: Love and War in Ancient Greece.'

[arrowqueen]

And, just to show off a wee bit of Scottish history, here's a picture of our castle.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/stranraer/stranraer/index.html

[Puma]

Thank you for showing us your castle (and town), Arrowqueen. It's beautiful. I'm jealous.

The doorway shown for the Tourist Information Center is constructed in the same manner as the slit windows I mentioned in the old stone fort here in Ohio (except the windows widen to the inside).

Thank you very much for your post. Puma

[Puma]

Innkeeper - It looks like I struck a responsive chord. Thank you for the links to websites about Madoc. The first one mentioned that he might have been in Ohio.

As I mentioned, the stone fort is very near the Tuscarawas River which flows into the Muskingum River which flows to the Ohio at Marietta. The fort is up from the river a way and could very well have been built in the moat and bailey manner (the field between the fort and the river is now a cornfield so any evidence of a moat is long lost). The compass I mentioned was plowed up in the cornfield.

The only other supposition on the origin of the fort is d'Iberville, or some of his men; but it looks to me like they weren't in the area - and, the fort was called old when the land was settled in 1800 - d'Iberville wasn't that long before 1800.

It's an intriguing mystery. Puma

[arrowqueen]

Yes, ours do too. The walls are about three feet thick.

What a fascinating story about Madoc. It's the first time I'd heard it. If you find out more, I'd love to hear it.

Great sites, Innkeeper. Cheers.

[Memnon624]

I'm an ancient history-o-phile, too (Egypt and Greece up to the Ptolemaic era).

[pdr]

Ah yes, I like periods of time where one culture met another. Anything from 500AD back to 4000BC is very interesting.

Here in Japan you can see how a peaceful people who used their precious and scarce metals to make bronze for pouring and producing large, beautiful bells to hang in their villages became something quite different due to meeting migrants. The historians believe the bells were used for ceremonial purposes. This peaceful use of metal then changes slowly but definitely through 2000 years. The bells were actually ceremonially buried, I wonder if they were hidden to save the metal from violent use. First there are a few ceremonial spears and a few arrow heads but by 500 Ad we see bronze used only for weapons, many weapons and no bells except tiny ones on horses' bridles.

Otzi the iceman came to a nearby museum last year. What stunned me was that his clothes, weapons and backpack were superbly adapted for the mountains. His equipment was better in some respects than modern mountaineering gear. The arrow between his ribs showed that some things never change!

Oh to be an archaeologist! Interesting that we'd all like to be one. I went to school in England and the nearby city council was excavating the local castle. I worked at the dig for three summers. The castle wasn't as pretty as yours, Arrowqueen, for it was smashed to pieces during the Civil war by Roundheads and we found 17thC clay pipes and a spur, various other bits and pieces. What amazed me was the metres of soil we had to remove to get anywhere near the castle floor. I went on as a university student to spend my summers on emergency digs as a lowly scraper and carrier but loved it. Did a Knights Templar site and a Roman villa. Wasn't allowed to train as an archaeologist because then you needed Latin and Classical studies as well as history.

Did you know that many digs around the world these days fund themselves by taking keen amateurs who pay to be trained and pay a little each week as they work? It's a good holiday idea!

Lief Erikson and Brendan definitely reached America, there must have been others. I wonder who reached us and Oz before the official 1st finder, Abel Tasman. I'm sure East Indian tea clippers were storm driven and wrecked on our coastline and there were brave explorers through the ages.

[Puma]

pdr - What are the Japanese arrowheads like in style, notched to tie on a shaft, triangular? I've done a lot of work with midwestern flint arrowheads and am curious about any similarities. (Again, interesting that different cultures used similar designs).

I'm jealous that you got to see Otzi. In my genealogical digging I discovered that one of my families came from the same area of the Alps (I discovered it just about the time Otzi was found - that was a thrill).

I've seen quite a few ads for going on archaeological (and paleontological) digs. It would be interesting. I spent time in New Mexico in a geology fieldwork class and was amazed to discover the ground in one area littered with pottery chards - and no one seemed to care about them.

I've always thought that the traditional discoverers and migrators to various places around the world aren't necessarily accurate. The ancients got around pretty well - who's to say the Phoenicians didn't get across the Atlantic or that the Norse might not have sailed down the coast of Africa. As far as Japan goes, I'll bet there was contact with the Pacific Island groups, New Zealand, etc. and some of the canoe type vessels the islanders made were exceptionally sea worthy. Very interesting world we live in! Puma

[JenNipps]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this forum are interested in ancient history/archaeology? If you are interested in ancient history, do you have a specific area of interest?

How ancient?

I have a deep interest in the Celts and the beginnings/mythology surrounding Stonehenge, but I don't quite think that's what you're referring to. *s*

[JenNipps]

(As an aside, if no one has any objections, I'll copy the links presented here over to the Resources discussion.)

[Puma]

Jen - Celts and Stonehenge definitely qualify as ancient history (which could also be called prehistory). The timeline for prehistoric time varies greatly around the globe. Puma

[BardSkye]

My interest in history dates (pun intended) from long after my school years. In school our history teacher seemed to think the subject involved memorizing names and dates of uninteresting politicians, dates of when wars started and ended, but nothing really any older than 1800 and no details to flesh out those dust-dry statistics.

It was actually Gone With the Wind that got me interested in history. Though it could hardly qualify as a textbook, for the first time it showed me a different era rich in tiny details where there were actually ordinary people doing ordinary things... and I was hooked.

My WIP, which is currently shelved until I finish several other work-related projects that are taking all my free time, is combining characters from China, Persia and Palestine in about 4BC, so I've been trying to read up on those areas and cultures.

[LloydBrown]

Gee, what could be happening in 4 BC that would combine all those characters? Hmmm..;)

[BardSkye]

Sounds like fun, huh? I did originally have the first page or so up in SYW but it disappeared during our last glitch.

[Medievalist]

Stonehenge is Neolithic, and that's pretty darn ancient. And I've got to revise my Stonehenge FAQ with the Amesbury archer finds.

*Sigh*

[JenNipps]

Stonehenge is Neolithic, and that's pretty darn ancient. And I've got to revise my Stonehenge FAQ with the Amesbury archer finds.

*Sigh*

With all the myths, legends, and general uncertainty surrounding Stonehenge, that's why I said I wasn't certain if it fit in with what Puma was intending with this discussion. *s*

(Anybody want to finish my work for me? Only 11 reports left.)

[NeuroFizz]

Anyone interested in the Hohokam and the early history of what is now Arizona? Lots of gold to mine in that vein, but it seems to be resisting current prospecting, at least in terms of their sudden disappearance.

[Puma]

Bardskye - I completely agree with you on the uninteresting way history is taught - I was a history major in college and got totally fed up with memorizing and regurgitating (and no opportunity for independent thought.) I was highly complimented when my first beta reader of my historical fiction WIP said she wished history books had been written like my novel - she would have learned a lot more.

Innkeeper - it sounds like you ought to write a novel or non-fiction piece on the trade routes with the east. You have a wealth of knowledge.

Neurofizz - yes, I am interested in the Hohokam (and other southwestern tribes). There's a lot of mystery concerning their disappearance. I also ran across some information on rock art in the upper west that indicated that the styles of some of the petroglyph sites were the same as those of the southwest.

To everyone, in case anyone's wondered, I am not doing anything with the Madoc story or the stone fort so if anyone is inclined to use it in a novel - go for it. Puma

[pdr]

Puma, I don't read Japanese, there are three written forms and I can't read any! Therefore my conclusions are based on what I've seen museum gazing.

Arrowheads. The arrow heads are small and don't have a long shaft part or seem not to have broken off ones. I think they were inserted arrowheads. The Japanese had a very sticky gum which eventually became the foundation for making lacquer.

The innovative looking ones were for birds and fish. They were very long for arrowheads, more like spearheads in shape, with a long shaft to tie them onto the handle or weapon shaft. The arrowheads were all well knapped and really deadly sharp. The museums always have a special display beside the formal ones for the children. So real arrow heads lie around for touching and there is flint for knapping and firestone for striking. Great fun.

I think seeing Otzi brought home to me that even 5000 years ago people were still the same. We have to forget what we know, remember that we are looking back with all the knowledge of the intervening centuries and newer technologies. Primitive does not equal stupid! And they had the best at that time so they were happy.

I get a little annoyed reading books in which reviews say 'the real dirt and filth of the age is accurately portrayed.' So in the book all the streets run with sewage and animal dung and rubbish. Yes, well I dare say some slum streets did, but in most streets people quickly snatched animal manure because it was priceless fertiliser and there was an industry making use of it. Human sewage was collected for various industries, tanning in particular, as well as fertiliser, and bones and offal were treasured as food by the poor, and used in other industries, making spoons, lanthorns, etc. Blood made blood puddings and food scraps fed the pigs! It was all too valuable to dump in the streets as some historical writers would have you believe. Most people used every little scrap of anything that they owned, grew or bought.

The Armhurst archer is fascinating. What is your theory, Medievalist?

I think maybe we have to remember that Cornish tin has been found in Africa and many Mediterranean counties. And Otzi came from the Alps too, where it seems metal working of bronze, tin and copper began. He was a metal worker or lived with metal workers. His hair was full of chemicals found as a result of smelting. If, as is highly likely, places like Stonehenge were the universities and religious centres of their day, then of course many people would travel there. And a man who possibly introduced the British to the arts of smelting metals would be revered and buried with great respect. All this masculine fuss to make out he's a king! Sigh! Why are historians so hooked up on kings, who were usually the worst bullies and thugs, which is how they climbed into the top position.

When Europe was strongly Christian people's lives revolved around the church, it was their learning and social centre. Perhaps for Bronze Age people those large henges and cursus were the same.

And on that note have you heard of the three aligned henges at Thornborough, Yorkshire, U.K.? They're aligned to Orion's Belt and the complex is greater in size than Stonehenge. They are under threat from the American Tarmac company that wishes to quarry gravel from all round them. Tarmac have already ruined part of the site. If you care to save these henges please read the websites and take action. I actually lived in Thornborough for three years and the site is quite special.
http://www.friendsofthornborough.org.uk/
http://www.timewatch.org/
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/thornborough/main.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn
borough_Henge

[Shadow_Ferret]

College I took a class on Art and Architecture through the ages. I took several "Classics" classes. My minor was history and I concentrated on illuminated manuscripts. I also took an archeology class.

But that was 20 years ago and I've forgotten everything.

I'm currently facinated with the Vikings.

[Puma]

pdr - When you mentioned the Japanese arrowheads (in the context of the use of metal for bells) I had thought the points were metal, not flint. It's interesting to find out that they are knapped flint. The fish spears you describe sound quite a bit like the ones found here in Ohio. In the US, arrowheads weren't used as arrow heads until very late - they were used as lance or spear points or knives instead. How far back do the Japanese points go? We're back to 8-12,000BC (PaleoIndian - Clovis and Folsom styles) on the oldest ones found in Ohio (but those are pretty rare). The best Ohio points are probably in the 3-7,000BC time period.

I've also found some hand pieces that greatly resemble the Archulean (spelling?) pieces found in Europe - but there's been no confirmation of the similarities. Puma

[BardSkye]

pdr, you've got it right about the nature of garbage in centuries other than our own. I think it was Terry Pratchitt who used a line (I'm just going on memory, here) like "There is nothing disgusting enough that it can't be used in some industry somewhere." And as most centuries and locations have their share of the very poor, anything that had any value to someone would be whisked off the street faster than you can say "supper." Even today, in our garbage-generating, throwaway societies, street people go through the trash to glean anything of value.

And I agree with your friend: if history when I was in school, which was the late sixties, had anything anywhere near as exciting as the History Channel or historical fiction available today, I might have passed it with flying colours. As it was, I crawled under the wire with a barely passing grade.

Innkeeper, my WIP is the story of the journey of the Three Magi of Christian fame, so it will involve trade to an extent, but will revolve more around the astrological beliefs of the time, from three different cultures.

[pdr]

Time periods for Puma:
Beautiful stone age arrowheads, spear heads, cutting tools etc. from the Palaeolithic Period
Then came the Jomon Period. In Japan it coincides with what we call Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age. Same lovely knapped stuff stuff but bronze creeps in for bells
Split Jomon into:
Incipient Jomon, 13-8000BC,
Earliest, 8-5000BC,
Early, 5-2500BC,
Middle, 25-1500BC,
Late 1500-1000BC, and
Final 1000-300BC

Yayoi period - 300BC-300AD - comes next and what is fascinating is that
Kofun period - 300-650AD - is the period of building great ceremonial burial mounds. Much later than the European mound builders!

Also of interest is that the Jomon Japanese were late in domesticating plants and animals; there wasn't (according to the experts) a formal Bronze and Iron Age. The Jomon people cultivated some plants, but farming cultivated plants did not begin until the Yayoi period. The Yayoi period also sees the use of both bronze and iron. However all the Jomon people were brilliant potters.

[pdr]

BardSkye, it sounds like Terry Pratchet, if it wasn't it should be!

I had great History teachers and a school library full of excellent historical fiction for YAs by Ronald Welch, Cynthia Harnet, Rosemary Sutcliffe, Geoffry Trease and history homework up to the exam years involved writing stories about ordinary people involved in important historical moments. Great stuff to make you love history.

Which way are your Wise Men travelling and will you get to do some travelling research? Would make a nice holiday wouldn't it?

[Puma]

pdr - The height of moundbuilding in Ohio is app 600BC to 600AD (Adena and Hopewell periods). Your Joman period is divided into periods that are somewhat similar to the divisions of midwestern flint working. The Ohio Indians also used copper for artifacts (mostly ceremonial) and had crude smelters built into creekbanks.

Question - are the paleolithic (or other) arrowheads fluted (have a channel down each face that begins at the base but doesn't extend all the way to the point)?

It's interesting noting the similarities in the two cultures with the Bering Strait being the transport route of man to America. I'm not sure anyone has determined exactly where the migrants originated in Asia (anyone more up to date on that than I am?) Puma

[BardSkye]

I had great History teachers and a school library full of excellent historical fiction.

The way it should be but seldom is.

Which way are your Wise Men travelling and will you get to do some travelling research? Would make a nice holiday wouldn't it?

Wouldn't that be interesting? But I'm afraid the only traveling I get to do this year is Montreal in a couple of weeks and Saskatoon in September, both two-day business trips.

I'm putting one Wise "man," Melchior in Herod's court as a slave. Gaspar will be taking the Silk Road from Peking to Persia and meeting up with Balthazar there, then both continuing from Persia to Judaea where they meet with Melchior.

My writing partner should be finished with an all-consuming job in a month or so and available to write. If I can finish the dull-as-dirt bookkeeping course I'm stuck with by then, so will I!

[pdr]

Sorry Puma. Had to check up for you and it's end of term University franticness.

Local museum shows only a small collection of arrowheads, none fluted. Very neat small head. They were actually from the Yayoi period - 300BC-300AD - from the local large mound burial.

And I will have to alter my stories.
The official historical line is that during this Yayoi period of 600 years people from the Korean peninsular brought the arts of metal. smelting. So my bronze bells are not Jomon but Yayoi period. One of the profs found me an English version of our area's early history. Did you know Japan had a small version of the Indian elephant? Every local township has skeletons. They look big to me!

Still the bells came first then the weapons and the metal workers and families did migrate. Tricky doing research without the language!

As for origins. Well, although one must not say it in Japan in fact genetically you cannot tell the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese apart. They are the same race. They were the invaders as the Ainu are the indigenous people. Ainu are more akin to the Inuit and quite different from the Japanese.

But the islands of Okinawa have another race of people, more like our NZ Maori who must be part of the great Melanesian migrations. Yet the Australian Aboriginal are directly linked, so it is said, to Lucy and the African cradle of humankind!
Fascinating isn't it?

But I want to know why every group of people went through this phase of making huge mound graves. Religious perhaps? I have a book (in storage at home of course) in which the authors had casually looked at world shattering events like volcanic eruptions and placed the building of henges and mounds in relation to them. There did seem to be a surge of activity in building or habitation at places like Stonehenge after natural disasters that would have affected the climate or the land.
Interesting huh?

[Medievalist]

Are you positive about the genetics of the Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese?

Because the languages are not related, though all have borrowed from Chinese.

Korean is in fact an Altaic langauge, and strikingly similar to Turkish.

[Puma]

I thought the most complex of the three Japanese writing forms was straight Chinese characters and that Kanji (sp?) was also closely related.

pdr - thank you for getting back to me on the arrowheads. I've got a book (somewhere down in my library) of creation myths from cultures all over the world. The similarities are very striking. In the geology magazine I used to get (they discontinued it - drat!) one of the articles was about a submerged village in the Black Sea (pretty sure Black not Caspian) that was drowned by earthquake activity in a time period consistent with the Biblical Flood.

And then, there are the American Indian legends about the white man who walked across America about the time of Christ. The Central American Indians called him Quetzacoatl (like the bird). Their legend was the reason there was almost no resistance to the conquistadors.

It's all extremely fascinating - even the "space drop" "true" theory that I read forty years ago. Puma

[Medievalist]

I thought the most complex of the three Japanese writing forms was straight Chinese characters and that Kanji (sp?) was also closely related.

Yes, the extant writing systems were derived from Chinese -- but the language is not, though there are many borrowed words.

[pdr]

Ah, I don't have sourced quotes for saying that the Japanese and Koreans and Chinese are genetically the same, Medievalist. More work for me to find some for you.
I know the Korean language is unlike Japanese and Chinese. My students tell me Japanese people can read Chinese, though not speak it, but cannot read Korean.
However it's a generally known belief in Japan that the genetics are the same. My class of Medical Profs told me this. We had along discussion about abductees once because I knew nothing of this episode of the Cold War. They told me tests showed that Koreans and Japanese were genetically identical.
There are often reports in the Japanese newspapers about the Japanese teenagers who were abducted by the North Koreans during the Cold War. They report that it is very hard for Japanese parents to prove that the person the North Koreans say is their kidnapped son or daughter actually is as genetic tests don't show whether the person is Japanese or Korean. (The North Koreans are not always truthful about who is or was abducted.)

Certainly there have always been migrations between the three areas and it's widely held that China was the first home of the Japanese and Koreans. Jomon period graves have Chinese and Korean goods in them. There is historical evidence of migrations

[Medievalist]

Yeah, the writing, is borrowed.

I'm exceedingly dubious about the genetics though. I'm curious enough to check.

There's a lot of research on cladistics, on using genetic data and mapping it against linguistic data, in Celtic language areas.

At the very least, the Y chromosone should break out into disparate groups; this only take ten or fifteen generations.

The mitochondrial data should also be different, because of the different land migrations.

And generally, so far, the genetic and linguistic data in broad terms have correlated. (i.e. Celtic genetic data in England is different from Anglo-Saxon, which is different from Norse in Iceland).

[Puma]

Double post - computer glitch

[Puma]

Medievalist - what about the cladistics of the American Indians and the Ainu, etc.? Is there enough evidence of similarity to establish conclusively where the North Americans came from? Puma

[Medievalist]

Medievalist - what about the cladistics of the American Indians and the Ainu, etc.? Is there enough evidence of similarity to establish conclusively where the North Americans came from?

There might be, and there are people working on it. The problem is that there were so many linguistically unrelated groups of languages, and now, we know so very very little about most of them; most North American Indian langauges are, sadly, dead languages, and most of the rest are dying.

That means it's hard to get linguistic or DNA data, and the artificial migrations, where we forcibly relocated groups, didn't help.

[johnnysannie]

There might be, and there are people working on it. The problem is that there were so many linguistically unrelated groups of languages, and now, we know so very very little about most of them; most North American Indian langauges are, sadly, dead languages, and most of the rest are dying.

That means it's hard to get linguistic or DNA data, and the artificial migrations, where we forcibly relocated groups, didn't help.


Sad but true that many Native American languages are dead or dying but one of those being kept alive for future generations is Cherokee. In the Cherokee Nation (within the state of Oklahoma) language classes are ongoing and the language is used often.

[pdr]

does Korea have an indigenous race of people like the Ainu? Might their language come from them.

At the moment, (and please remember the language barrier I am dealing with!)
my doctor sources say that medically you cannot physically tell a Japanese and Korean apart.

[Medievalist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people

There's enough there to begin, including names of scientists doing DNA research.

The various groups are distinct, though it appears there are some shared ancestors.

[pdr]

Thank you for that.

Thus one can say the Japanese and Koreans are closely linked.

So how come the language is so different?

[Medievalist]

Thank you for that.

Thus one can say the Japanese and Koreans are closely linked.

So how come the language is so different?

It looks like the Koreans have an Altaic ancestor group as well, since they have strong genetic links with groups from that area.

So maybe that's why . . . I confess to being mytified. I know just enough about Japanese, Korean and Chinese to work with people translating software, and creating teaching materials, so this is way out of my field of expertise.

But so very interesting.

[pdr]

I shan't rest until I get to the bottom of it, to my satisfaction which means fiction.

Darn it, more research and another story/novel on its way.

[CroneJay]

My current area of interest is the lower Aegean in the 17th century bce

BTW I did not misspell my subject - I prefer the Greek root "hyst" to "his"

[BardSkye]

Welcome to the discussions, CroneJay! Here you'll learn all about the histories they never bothered with in school and hopefully share a few of your own nuggets of research.

Even if the discussions have nothing whatsoever to do with my area of interest, I still find them fascinating.

[dclary]

I'd have to guess that ANYONE who enjoys writing history also would have at least SOME interest in the archeology of the era he/she likes reading about.

My preferences are medieval weapons, dinosaur bones, and totem poles.

[barbee505]

My interest is Egypt and Rome in the early part of the First Century C.E.
I love horses too, and I think I have sort of combined all of these in my WIP.

[Carmy]

I am interested in history and archaeology, especially Ancient Cultures and the Celts.

A tremendous amount of research is being done regarding the Celts and the Bronze Age so it's important to keep up with recent findings. It is also important for a novelist to sort fact from fiction and do intensive research because - somebody, somewhere will know if you haven't.

Marion Zimmer-Bradley may be a well-known and best-selling author, but her research isn't all that hot. I lost all urge to read her books after I found a glaring error in Mists of Avalon.

Regarding Madoc: It's said the Mandan Indians spoke Welsh.

[Gabriele]

Marion Zimmer-Bradley may be a well-known and best-selling author, but her research isn't all that hot. I lost all urge to read her books after I found a glaring error in Mists of Avalon.

I don't think she considered her books to be historical ficition but rather historical fantasy. What she did was basically taking the 12th century version of the Arthurian matière, taking it back into the 5/6th century AD, and adding a feminist agenda. It was the latter that annoyed me.

If you want a more authentic take on the Celtic Arthur, read Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilgoy. :)

[pdr]

Bernard Cornwall based his books on Rosemary Sutcliffe's. 'Sword at Sunset' is the best 'taste' we'll get of the real Arthur.

[Medievalist]

I'll take Mary Stewart's Arthur and Arthurian Britain over Sutcliffe's, personally.

[Medievalist]

I am interested in history and archaeology, especially Ancient Cultures and the Celts.

Me too.

<snip>

Marion Zimmer-Bradley may be a well-known and best-selling author, but her research isn't all that hot. I lost all urge to read her books after I found a glaring error in Mists of Avalon.

MZB's "research" was mostly done by Diane Paxson. MZB made no effort to make Mists "authentic," and wrote about Neo Pagan Wiccan practices and myths, not Celtic ones.

Regarding Madoc: It's said the Mandan Indians spoke Welsh.

The whole Madoc thing is ahistorical; there is no truth to it.

[Puma]

Medievalist - I wouldn't say there's no truth to the Madoc stories; I'd say there's been no proof, but I would also say there are a number of items concerning the Madoc stories that make no sense except in light of the Madoc stories (or something similar). Puma

[Medievalist]

Medievalist - I wouldn't say there's no truth to the Madoc stories; I'd say there's been no proof, but I would also say there are a number of items concerning the Madoc stories that make no sense except in light of the Madoc stories (or something similar). Puma

The linguistic data pretty much proves that it's not true. For one thing, the Welsh of the twelfth century is markedly different from that of the fifteenth and later. For another, the "Welsh" words include words that were not in Welsh in the twelfth century (they were loan words) and words cognate with words in related Indian languages, which indicates that they are native to the language of the Mandans, and not Welsh.

Moreover it's a little odd that there's no contemporary Welsh account, in Welsh, and that the preservation of the legend is entirely documented in English for several hundred years.

It was a lovely bit of Elizabethan linguistic (http://www.data-wales.co.uk/madoc.htm) propaganda (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060908.html).

At its heart, part of the underlying argument (the part about the beauty of the Mandan women, and the presence of various archaeological remains) is inherently racist because it associates beauty and the ability to create lasting structures as European qualities, and assumes that the Mandans could not/did not possess them.

[Puma]

Medievalist - what are you referring to when you talk about the Welsh words? It sounds like you're referencing a document. I know you've got the upper hand on linguistics - I find them fascinating but don't have any expertise. So my references to items that don't make sense are more in the context of artifacts and materials that have no logical explanation because of their age and that they are on this continent. Puma

[Medievalist]

I've probably heard five or six papers on the Madoc legends at Celtic conferences in Aberystwyth, the University of California, and Harvard. Catlin actually provided a list of words in his discussion that he said were Welsh, but which aren't.

[robeiae]

The Mandan Indians are the last remnants of the Hy-Brazil culture, silly people.

And the Olmecs came from Lemuria.

[C.bronco]

I was really into the Sumerians for awhile.

[Puma]

Okay Robeiae - and where did the Atlantians go? Puma

[robeiae]

Vegas.

[Elektra]

I love Latin and Greek/Roman mythology. Does that count?

[Scarlett_156]

Ancient history and archaeology have been two of my side interests since I was little. I wouldn't say I'm an "expert" at any of these but I do have a lot of weird bits of information on different cultures and geographic areas.