Maybe I just shouldn't write, period

[BooRadley65]

Actually, maybe I should not post, period.

Thanks!

[Quiller]

Some editors, like some humans, are sadistic and mean spirited, AND passive-aggressive to boot. In the grand landscape of editors you would be glad to work with again, is he one of them?

[ATP]

We touched on a bit of your difficulties back in March, yes? Then, you got out of a bad company scene, from those employers who seemed very weird.

After reading your explanation here, I would like to say a few things:

i) you know this already, but you do need to spend time really researching your industry in terms of pay scale and conditions. You say that the market has changed since the 1990s. How has it changed in the last 10-15 years? Does experience not count?

ii) part of the problem here is that you made an error in terms of job estimation. I have done the same. You might like to examine my recent posting about this related issue. Perhaps my editor knew what he was doing, and perhaps he didn't. You may have read the post and replies in the Trade and Custom Publishing forum before recent material was lost in the recent technical snafu with the new host company. But, I have since posted a follow up to that.

iii) in relation to the editor, implicit is your suggestion that he had an agenda which you only found out about later. My question is whether you chose not to enquire clearly about the specific article requirements because of a possible pending job offer? And the editor doesn't come off too well here - one who seems to like playing head games.

iv) you seem to correctly determine that perhaps your lack of assertiveness is a problem. But, this is counterbalanced with your expressed need to 'get back into the game, and up the industry food chain'

v) I think I remember reading in AW around 6 months ago or so, a technical writer saying that the tech writing field was in the doldrums, according to his experience.


If you have the burden of responsibilities, or for some major reason have to re-establish yourself, I don't think you can fault yourself for the difficulty.

Is there no-one in the business that you can talk to about your situation? From a professional industry body or some such?

[BooRadley65]

Thanks Quiller and ATP. I guess nobody else bothered to respond, because it must seem that I am whining.

I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks for responding.

Boo

[Tish Davidson]

Thanks Quiller and ATP. I guess nobody else bothered to respond, because it must seem that I am whining.

I appreciate the feedback.

Thanks for responding.

Boo


Well, I was going to reply, but not now that you've yelled at people for not bothering to respond. You posted this less than 14 hours ago. Why do you think you have the right to demand an immediate response? Some of us write. Some of us work more than one job. Some of us have families and pets that take up hours and hours of our "free" time. Some of us are regularly abducted by aliens. My point is that by berating people for not responding in what you consider to be a timely fashion, you certainly don't make people want to take the time to write out a thoughtful answer to your very long and somewhat complicated post. If you're that obnoxious to editors, no wonder you seem to have problems getting along with them.

[BooRadley65]

<<Well, I was going to reply, but not now that you've yelled at people for not bothering to respond.>>

I don't think I yelled at anyone. In cyberland, don't you have to use the Caps Lock to indicate yelling?

To be honest, I re-read my long, rambling post when I got home this evening--from a night job--and I thought it smacked of too much whining. When I saw that only a couple people posted back, I assummed that they may have sensed that in my post, also. That assumption was wrong, maybe, according to you.

<< You posted this less than 14 hours ago. Why do you think you have the right to demand an immediate response? Some of us write. Some of us work more than one job. Some of us have families and pets that take up hours and hours of our "free" time. Some of us are regularly abducted by aliens.>>

Your need to point this out makes me realize your last assertion may really be correct. Actually, I've gotten great responses for the few posts I've left here, and I just made an assumption on this one, period, based on my own feelings about what I posted this morning. Obviously, I was wrong.

<< My point is that by berating people for not responding in what you consider to be a timely fashion, you certainly don't make people want to take the time to write out a thoughtful answer to your very long and somewhat complicated post.>>

I don't think I've berated anyone, as I explained above. Or, let's say that was not my intent at all.

<< If you're that obnoxious to editors, no wonder you seem to have problems getting along with them.>>

You don't find your quote from above berating and obnoxious? I can safely say that I highly doubt you'd be teaching any "How to Win Friends and Influence Others" classes in the near future, yourself, eh?

I won't return the volley, because I truly do not know you, and I think my post really irked you--and maybe others--but it was not my intent. As well, I think you are a person that takes a lot of time to respond to folks here.

However, I did not deserve your flame.

[Fern]

First off, I just want to say I don't write for trade publications, although I do read along on the threads somewhat . . .just in case. So, you should take my comments with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I share your frustration with editors, for whatever type publication, asking expected salary/pay. Just seems like they could state a pay range up front and say "commensurate with experience" or some such. But, many places hit you with that question, so its good to have a pay scale of some sort worked out.

Plan ahead. Recently I quoted a job for $300 flat rate, and specified that price included one rewrite and anything further would be billed at $hourly rate. That way everybody knows up front to get the details included at the beginning.

One thing I was thinking when reading your post was that maybe the difference in the editor's expectations and yours were simply a misunderstanding on both your parts. Not completely understanding your market on your side and the assumption you did understand so not bothering to give many details on his side.

Just from what I've read on old posts, I thought when trade pub. editors give you contacts, they want those specific contacts in the story, so he may not have been out of line on that. . .probably just didn't voice it, thinking you knew (the misunderstanding thing mentioned above.)

You shouldn't consider this job a loss in terms of money, but think of it as experience of what to do and not to do on your next assignment.

[Good Word]

Boo, your post is totally welcome. Also, I understand that when you post something you feel a little vulnerable about, you wonder what is going on when people don't respond right away.

I actually lost a gig recently because I was asking for more than they were paying--and then I found out what they were paying wasn't bad. It wasn't top dollar, but it was mid-range. I would have been really upset if it was subject matter I wanted to write about! I learned a lot from the exchange, though.

Though I love the topics I am writing about, I loathe feeling like the only reason I'm getting hired is because I took a lowball rate.

I think this is the crux of the matter for you, and for many of us. It's about feelings of success being competely tied to the dollar amount you make. I can certainly relate to that!

But I think if you find people you can work with regularly, you can raise your rates little by little because you develop relationships with people and they grow to count on you and value your work.

And freelancing is hard--you may want to keep your eyes open for full-time as you continue freelancing.

[BooRadley65]

Whatever.

Post or don't post. I explained both of my posts, and it seems it's time for you, and whomever else, to jump on the "yeah, what she said' bandwagon

I think Tish was over the top with her reply, and I explained my follow-up post.

If this is going to be a "yeah, me too" thread, that's fine. I'll delete my posts.

[Tish Davidson]

I'd just like to say that BooRadley65 has sent me a long snarky PM concerning my post. I suggest that this thread be closed so that he doesn't turn his unpleasantness on others.

[BooRadley65]

<<Boo, your post is totally welcome. Also, I understand that when you post something you feel a little vulnerable about, you wonder what is going on when people don't respond right away.>>

Yes, I actually re-read my first post and felt that maybe I was whining too much. I have friends that will take writing jobs for free, so I guess--in that respect--I am doing okay.

So, when I ask some of my writer friends--who have been laid off, etc.--whether I'm being assertive enough, etc., they don't really have an answer.

Very vulnerable right now, and I have been for the past few months. ATP gave me some good advice, and I may try to find a mentor here in the Atlanta area.

<<I actually lost a gig recently because I was asking for more than they were paying--and then I found out what they were paying wasn't bad. It wasn't top dollar, but it was mid-range. I would have been really upset if it was subject matter I wanted to write about! I learned a lot from the exchange, though.>>

That's what I can't get a grip on. Is $300 for my work, including re-writes, fair in this market? I don't know. I know that I spent about 35 hours in research (seriously) finding sources who would talk to me, along with writing the first draft. I know nothing about this topic, so I had to learn fast.

<<I think this is the crux of the matter for you, and for many of us. It's about feelings of success being competely tied to the dollar amount you make. I can certainly relate to that! >>

At my age, yes I do think about it. I'm not in my 20s anymore. I'm getting ready to move on to a full-time job, or something.

<<But I think if you find people you can work with regularly, you can raise your rates little by little because you develop relationships with people and they grow to count on you and value your work. >>

This has started to happen, but slowly. I just need more money, and I'm at a crossroads concerning that.

Thank you for taking the time to post.

Boo

[BooRadley65]

<<Anyway, I share your frustration with editors, for whatever type publication, asking expected salary/pay. Just seems like they could state a pay range up front and say "commensurate with experience" or some such. But, many places hit you with that question, so its good to have a pay scale of some sort worked out. >>

At first, I thought 300 bucks for 1500 words was pretty good, but I didn't take into consideration how long it might take me to get up-to-speed on the topic, nor how hard it would be to find individuals willing to talk about the "con" side of this issue. I was so perplexed by his critique of the first draft, that part of me felt like he realized this would be a longer piece.

If he ends up liking the finished piece--and I thought one re-write for free is appropriate--and wants me to write another one, I think I might talk to him about an hourly rate for research, etc. I don't know.

<<Plan ahead. Recently I quoted a job for $300 flat rate, and specified that price included one rewrite and anything further would be billed at $hourly rate. That way everybody knows up front to get the details included at the beginning.>>

Exactly.

<<One thing I was thinking when reading your post was that maybe the difference in the editor's expectations and yours were simply a misunderstanding on both your parts. Not completely understanding your market on your side and the assumption you did understand so not bothering to give many details on his side. >>

He's not really good on communication. It was evident, when we were on the phone. I suggested we get together in person, if there is a problem with the next draft.

<<Just from what I've read on old posts, I thought when trade pub. editors give you contacts, they want those specific contacts in the story, so he may not have been out of line on that. . .probably just didn't voice it, thinking you knew (the misunderstanding thing mentioned above.)>>

Yes, I tried several times via email and phone to contact this guy, but he never responded before my first deadline. However, I got in touch with him, finally on Friday afternoon.

<<You shouldn't consider this job a loss in terms of money, but think of it as experience of what to do and not to do on your next assignment.>>

I appreciate the response. I will do just that.

Boo

[Sassenach]

If he ends up liking the finished piece--and I thought one re-write for free is appropriate--and wants me to write another one, I think I might talk to him about an hourly rate for research, etc. I don't know.



I think not--unless you're being hired as a researcher.

Doing the research necessary to write a piece is part of the job.

[BooRadley65]

I think not--unless you're being hired as a researcher.

Doing the research necessary to write a piece is part of the job.

Right. I guess I need to either ask for an hourly rate, or try and estimate the time it might take me to write the next article and negotiate a rate accordingly, period.

Boo

[Bamponang]

I know that I spent about 35 hours in research (seriously) finding sources who would talk to me, along with writing the first draft. I know nothing about this topic, so I had to learn fast.


I can't offer much advise about salary negotiation', because that is still problematic for me. And i'd really love to get some input from experienced freelancers who have "gone up the food chain".

However, what I do suspect is that your inexperience in that particular subject was your undoing, not the editor seeking to use/abuse you.


1. You say the editor assumed you would include a particular source.

In my experience, that is not unusual. For example, if an editor asks me to write a trend article about teledensity in Africa, I have to speak to Intelsat, Vodacom and MTN at least.

No one tells me this, but Intelsat infrastructure carries 80% of voice traffic in Africa, mobile companies have increased teledensity considerably. And between them MTN and Vodacom ( both mobile companies), have presence in more than 20 countries.

It is assumed I know this and therefore, their take on trends is important. By the same token, an article without their input does not give sufficient context.

2. Despite the hard work you put into the piece, your inexperience in the subject must have showed in some way.

I could be wrong of course, but I have been there many times. And because I didn't know the subject well, I would give facts that should be minor prominence, or extensively quote a minor player in the sector. This lowers the credibility of my story - who cares what Joe Soap, who has 2% market share thinks?

So the editor sees this, and it's true the facts are there, but they don't paint the picture he had in mind, and he stops paying attention and starts saying "I don't see such and such a thing," even though it is there in the article. Somewhere!

3. You say the research took long

That is not the editor's fault. Essentially, he gave you a more demanding assignment assuming that you can handle it in the shortest possible time, making the payment worth your time. You didn't, which lowered your earnings.

The solution I propose is not to quit freelancing/ writing for this market; you should evaluate whether you want to write more articles in that particular subject and are willing to put in the effort to do just that.

I attend as many trade conferences and seminars as i can, and meet speakers/ delegates as potential sources. Because people tend to be more relaxed at these events than when you try to get first intro via a secretary, I'm able to introduce myself at lunch/tea and make an impression for the future contact. That gets me their card, which has an email address and cellphone number.

I also write in a niche area so my effort is concentrated in getting the attention of a small group of people. When you publish regularly on the same subject, people start taking note of you, which makes getting sources to speak to you easier.

The strategy worked really well for me. 12 months ago, I'd never written a telecoms-related article. I didn't even know/care how many operators we had in the country, never mind what everyone in the continent was doing.
Now it's my area of specialisation and the market (including their PR poeple) know it :) Which helps me get stories my editors want.

[ATP]

Given her (?) reaction, perhaps BR didn't like what was said...?

[Good Word]

Everyone is being a little oversensitive.

Let's just drop this, please.

[SumthinInnocuous]

I think planning is required. Taking a job and quoting rate per page seems kind of dangerous to me for exactly the reasons stated in the thread above.
Raise the rate if you're not an expert on the topic?
Personally, I hate writing. I think we should all just throw sticks.

[BooRadley65]

Thank you to all that took the time to give me some great advice. As well, my apologies to anyone I offended with my second post.

The latest is that I finished the re-write, and it was even longer than the first draft!!

However, it included everything that the editor said he wanted. The bad part is that I took a look at my contract, and there were some things slipped into it that I didn't see the first time.

This is a valuable and painful lesson. He added a third page, and after I had signed the original contract, when I met with him, he said, "Oh, I need you to initial this last part. It's just a recap of everything we discussed, and what's in the contract."

So, I initialed it and didn't even really read it.

Yep. I know. I've already kicked myself on that one. So, basically it says that if he doesn't like the first draft, that I'm to do infinite re-writes and that it is "commonplace" to do so. As well, it's considered part of the price for the job. This is my fault, for not being vigilant about the contract.

And I have just seen another thread, where someone posted the going rates for all sorts of writing. Let's just say I feel as if I should have signed "Forrest Gump" at the bottom of the contract.

I'm trying to be optimistic that he will like the rewrite, and I'll get the money for this. However, after reading the fine print, I am not so sure that will be the case.

We'll see. I just want to move on from this. Thanks, again, for the feedback.

Boo

[Fern]

Thanks for giving the followup post, Boo. I was wondering what happened. Sounds like that editor will do to watch. Good luck on him accepting the rewrite. Hard as they are on us, those painful lessons tend to stick with us. Glad you're moving forward.

[Good Word]

Boo, that totally sucks.
Here, have a hug.

:Hug2:


I guess it's all for learning.

When you finish, what are you going to do if they talk about another project?

[BooRadley65]

Boo, that totally sucks.
Here, have a hug.


I guess it's all for learning.

When you finish, what are you going to do if they talk about another project?

Hi Good Word! Thanks.

Well, I am not sure it will even get that far. Right now, I'm just preparing for the worst.

I mean, he may call and say he liked the second draft, but I'm not hopeful on that, given what I re-read in the contract.

I've decided that if he calls and says, "Well, it's almost there, but you still need to add some things," or whatever, I'm going to calmly tell him that when I signed onto this project, it was a 1500 word article for $300.00 dollars. For me, that was a fair rate for that length-- a business article.

I thought I could write that with no problem, and with minimal research. However, with what he said he wanted in the article--he decided, after I signed the contract, that he wanted two case studies included as part of the article--there was no way it was going to be 1500 words.

However, I signed the contract, so I felt one re-write should be gratis.

I'll tell him that I misjudged the research time I'd need to competently write on the subject, but I've now spent well over 45 hours on research and one rewrite, and it's well over 3,000 words. So, if he wants another rewrite, we need to re-negotiate the contract, or he needs to pay me the kill fee, full fee, or whatever.

I just cannot continue to spend time on this, for the amount we agreed on for 1500 words. That was used up a long time ago.

Either that, or if there are only minor edits he wants me to make, I'm prepared to tell him I can spend two more hours on it, and then I need to move on.

It's just when I re-read the contract, it's set up for him to take my work for free, if I don't consent to keep re-writing into infinity. It's a very smarmy contract, on that last page. Up until the last page, it's a standard contract.

The one good thing is that it's actually a very good representation of a white paper, period. I have a company interested in speaking with me about a full-time job writing white papers, so--depending on how this goes--I might be able to just use it as an example.

I'll let you know what happens when I finally speak to him about the latest re-write. I have two other deadlines this week, so I cannot devote a lot of time for another re-write for this guy. The other clients actually pay, and pay on time, and I seldom have any edits to make.

I just have a sick feeling about this one, but I could be surprised. He could love the re-write, I could get paid and go my merry way. But that's like thinking a Democrat could win the next Presidential election. It's a great idea, but I doubt it will occur.

If he wants me to ever write for them again, then a new contract will have to be in play, and I am asking for an hourly salary, or a fairly researched flat fee.

I will draw up my own contract, period.

Thanks!
Boo

[ATP]

I don't know how long you've been in the business, but from what we have all seen clearly is your inexperience.

In the first instance, it does pay - literally and figuratively - to thoroughly read your contract. By doing so, you would have saved yourself a lot of time and grief. And saved yourself time here. However, all vets. have had to start at the beginning, so no fault is ascribed.

Might I suggest that you do more homework - the finer points of contracts and copyright; negotiations; marketing. There are plenty of resources found on these within the archives of the business-related forums such as Trade and Custom Publishing, Business and Technical, and some material in the Freelance forum. There are also good books found on Amazon.com concerning these areas. Or, depending on your finances, you can probably get quite a number via your local community library.

One good online resource is found at www.writing-world.com.

[Good Word]

Yes, ATP, we all have differing levels of expertise in writing and contract negotiation.

Comments about some of the resources available are useful. Rude comments about levels of experience are not. If it goes without saying, it's better not to say it.

[ATP]

Some here have the very unfortunate mindset of mistaking bluntness and directness for rudeness. I have never claimed, nor would I ever claim to be politically correct.

I suggest that these same people re-read JG's introduction to newbies.

[Elizabeth Slick]

I know how you feel. Don't stop writing!

[dahmnait]

This is a valuable and painful lesson. He added a third page, and after I had signed the original contract, when I met with him, he said, "Oh, I need you to initial this last part. It's just a recap of everything we discussed, and what's in the contract."


If he wants me to ever write for them again, then a new contract will have to be in play, and I am asking for an hourly salary, or a fairly researched flat fee.

I will draw up my own contract, period.

Thanks!
BooI would be hesitant to take anything more from this person. Slipping this information in was such a sleazeball thing to do that I would be concerned what else he might pull. Now if the business wants more, and he is not involved, it may be different. Unless you are desperate for the work, I would think twice, and then think again before accepting any work while he is involved. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Sorry you have to deal with this. I am glad to hear that you are taking the experience as a learning experience though. And thanks for posting. It is not always easy to post our own mistakes. It is a helpful reminder to us all on the importance of reading every paper.

Take care.

[BooRadley65]

I don't know how long you've been in the business, but from what we have all seen clearly is your inexperience.

In the first instance, it does pay - literally and figuratively - to thoroughly read your contract. By doing so, you would have saved yourself a lot of time and grief. And saved yourself time here. However, all vets. have had to start at the beginning, so no fault is ascribed.

Might I suggest that you do more homework - the finer points of contracts and copyright; negotiations; marketing. There are plenty of resources found on these within the archives of the business-related forums such as Trade and Custom Publishing, Business and Technical, and some material in the Freelance forum. There are also good books found on Amazon.com concerning these areas. Or, depending on your finances, you can probably get quite a number via your local community library.

One good online resource is found at www.writing-world.com (http://www.writing-world.com).

Hi ATP,

First of all, thanks for the Web link. It was a good one. With the few posts I've had here, you've always responded with blunt, but often times, needed direction or information.

I took at look at some of your posts on the Trade magazine thread, and it seems that you are currently dealing with some of the same issues that I have posted about.

Even with your experience, it seems you just finished a long piece, for which you had to expend a lot of research time, in order to grasp the subject matter.

You mentioned that you received 'low pay' for the job, but you realized that you could now market yourself in a new area.

As well, I read some great posts that you left about dealing with editors who try to low ball you, even with all of your "experience."

It's good to know that these issues are universal, given the nature of the profession, whether "experienced," or "inexperienced."

A little about my background, so you know: I worked as a technical writer for about 9 years--independent contractor--and I made great money. However, I got really sick and could not work for a couple of years.

Last year, I finally started again and I realized my skillset was not current, and the pay scale that I was used to, was not the same as it was a few years ago.

You responded to my first post about the first tech writing job I was able to get, after my recovery.

Print is a whole other issue. I haven't written for print since college, and as a tech writer, I was used to negotiating a contract usually through an agency. My rate per hour was negotiated with the agency, who then went to the client on my behalf.

So, the whole contract negotiation, with no middle-man, is something new to me. It really is. I've been working with three print clients--one for about a year--and each gave me a standard contract. The client I've posted about on this thread is the first one that has been less than honest, however it is my responsibility to know what I am signing.

No doubt that "we" all know I am inexperienced.

I hope that explains where I am at this point, and thanks for the link.

Boo

[BooRadley65]

I would be hesitant to take anything more from this person. Slipping this information in was such a sleazeball thing to do that I would be concerned what else he might pull. Now if the business wants more, and he is not involved, it may be different. Unless you are desperate for the work, I would think twice, and then think again before accepting any work while he is involved. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Sorry you have to deal with this. I am glad to hear that you are taking the experience as a learning experience though. And thanks for posting. It is not always easy to post our own mistakes. It is a helpful reminder to us all on the importance of reading every paper.

Take care.

Dahmnait,

I appreciate your feedback. He emailed me, yesterday, just to tell me that he received the rewrite, but hasn't had a chance to review it, yet.

It's embarrassing, in a way, that I let myself get involved with this. I did it because I had never written an article for this industry, and it was a chance to write a 'white paper' type article. At the same time, it is my fault for not really reading that last page, no matter what.

I'm just waiting to see what he says about the re-write, and I have a feeling that will be the end of the professional relationship. It seems I have a lot of studying to do about what my rates should be, and being pro-active in having my own contract and terms ready.

Thanks for the comments.

Boo

[dahmnait]

Boo,

Don't kick yourself too hard. The editor pulled a sleaze ball move. Yes, you should have read it before initialing, but we all make mistakes. It doesn't excuse the editor. What he did was wrong, period.

I have a feeling that more people are honest than not.

[kohuether]

Hello,

ATP made a comment about Boo's inexperience... that may be the case but I need to comment on that thought based on my experiences. I spent two years "researching" how to be a freelance writer. I didn't make a move until after even longer than that had passed. Then, I made a mistake when I sent out the query- it had a typo. I panicked and didn't get a response. Oh great, I thought that's it- now I'll never be a writer. Then I got a grip and challenged myself to step out of my comfort zone. I went on autopilot, made tons of mistakes, and learned from them. I realized that the process of screwing up (constantly) and trying to figure out what I learned and moving on was a much better teacher than the two years I spent reading how-to books.

It's difficult and stressful when you get yourself into situations that are less than ideal. They haven't really stopped for me even though I am no longer a beginner- but now I've learned that as long as I take something away that makes me a better business person, at least it stopped getting to me.

Good luck and I hope you work out your problems. I never did see the original post but I wish you luck anyhow. :)

[Good Word]

No worries, Boo. We all make mistakes. In five years this experience will be a distant memory.

I think you've been quite brave to post your experience here, and I appreciate you sharing it. We can all learn from it. Trust and goodwill are things we assume we have with people, but it ain't always so, as your experience shows us.

[BooRadley65]

Here is the latest.

I emailed him yesterday, and I asked whether the revision was good-to-go, since I had not heard from him since Monday.

He wrote back and said, "We've got it this time," and said he was happy with the revision..."However..."

He was very nebulous but told me that he had some questions for me to clarify and answer, and that some editing needed to take place within the article, "to correct some things." As well, a study that I referenced cannot be used in the article, he said.

So, I feel like if the edits and changes will take me--at the most--two hours, no problem. If he is wanting a complete re-write, or if I am going to have to find other sources, which will take me much longer than two hours, I do not think I can continue re-writes for free to "infinity and beyond," as this is starting to feel.

The other part of me feels like, "Hey, you were dumb enough to sign that contract, so just finish it to his liking, stick it in your portfolio and NEVER work with him again."

We are supposed to talk about the edits, etc. on Monday. I just want this over with, period. I guess we shall see. I'm just hoping that the edits are minor, and I can wrap this up on a positive note.

Good Word and kohuether: thanks for the support.

Boo

[awatkins]

Hang in there, Boo. It's a learning process. Unfortunately, the learning curve is sometimes painfully steep. Keep at it. :)

[kohuether]

You're welcome. And you know, it might get to the point where you should say something. What does your contract say about revisions? Sorry if that is a repeat question. If your contract doesn't say either way about them, I would probably find a way to politely tell them that you can't take it anymore! There's a fine line between doing what the editor wants and standing up for yourself. Seems like you're teetering on the tightrope. :)

[BooRadley65]

You're welcome. And you know, it might get to the point where you should say something. What does your contract say about revisions? Sorry if that is a repeat question. If your contract doesn't say either way about them, I would probably find a way to politely tell them that you can't take it anymore! There's a fine line between doing what the editor wants and standing up for yourself. Seems like you're teetering on the tightrope. :)

Yes, I teetered on the tightrope, but like a good Wallenda, I gave an exciting show and still made it to the other side.

I spoke with my editor on Tuesday, and he only found a few minor edits that I needed to make. It didn't take me very long, so I finally handed the final draft off, and sent my invoice. He said that was fine.

He also said, given the fact that I knew nothing about this topic when I started, that I did a really good job.

I am just glad I am finished.

Thanks!
Boo

[kohuether]

Congratulations! Live and learn, right? :)

[BooRadley65]

Well,

I thought I would post and update to my soap opera.

Okay, finished the project from hell, knowing that I had really gotten screwed. So, now, I am waiting for payment--it will be 30 days on August 29--and he has yet to post the white paper/article on his Web site.

Several of the professionals that I interviewed for this article--one, a CEO of his own computer software company--continue to email me, wondering when the article will be out.

It's been about a month. The editor keeps emailing me, telling me, "Oh, I'm putting it up this week," and then nothing. This has been going on for three weeks. Each time I email and say, "some of the contacts for the story are wondering when it's going up on the Web site," I get a reply with excuses as to why it's not published, yet.

If this continues, I want to know what rights--if any--that I have. What I mean is that in my contract, I sold rights to him for this story. However, if he's never really going to publish it, can I ask for the rights back? This paper was intensive, long, and it was very good. If he's not going to ever publish it, then I want it back so I can re-sell it.

I have a feeling I am royally screwed, but I am very angry over this. This guy is so passive aggressive, as someone pointed out when this thread started, it's not even funny. He sure wanted this paper in a hurry, and rode me to get it, but he's taking his sweet time posting it.

Any suggestions on how to handle this tactfully, but get my point across to this guy that if he's not going to publish the article, I want my rights back?

Right now, I just want to call him and rip him a new one. I found out the editorial assistant he hired (that was the original part-time job I was going for, with his company, but he wanted me to write for them) quickly quit the job. Imagine that?

If any veterans have any advice for me, I would appreciate it. Trust me. This will never happen again.

Thanks,
Lisa

[Good Word]

Hi Lisa, was wondering how things were going. It hasn't really been that long--I don't think you can really push it on the publication aspect. Technically, he doesn't have to do anything with it. I think you should give it a little more time.

Do you think that payment is going to be a problem?

[BooRadley65]

Hi Good Word,

Yep, you were right. Actually, I happened to look at the Web site, yesterday--the first time this week--and it was posted.

As my posts indicate, this project really messed with me. Well, they are supposed to pay 30 days after invoice, so I should be seeing the check next week.

I'm just glad I can send the article to the folks that I interviewed. So, technically, he didn't have to post the article at all? He could have kept it and never used it?

I didn't realize that. Next time, I will not be signining over rights in perpetuity, etc.

Thanks for the response!

Lisa

[aka eraser]

Yeah, some editors/pubs take their own sweet time printing or posting an article. My record is two years from acceptance. They paid on acceptance, which was good, but for two+ years there was an article I couldn't try to resell.

Just one frustration to counterbalance the glorious, predictable serenity of a freelancer's lot.

;)

[Tish Davidson]

I think it is highly unlikely that you will be able to negotiate a contract that returns the rights to you if a publisher has paid for the story and then choses not to use it. Along with buying the story, the publisher buys the right to exercise or not exercise the rights he bought, (often first print or electronic rights.) If he chooses not to exercise those first rights, then you are out of luck.

One thing you may be able to do in the fiuture is sell the story as a one-time rights story instead of a first-rights story. Then you don't have to wait for the publisher to publish the story first, as you would if he bought first rights. However, most publishers want first rights if the story is significant and has a national audience. I have been able to negotiate one-time rights stories only in regional publications, and then only with the guarantee of exclusivity in each publication's circulation area.

[BooRadley65]

One thing you may be able to do in the fiuture is sell the story as a one-time rights story instead of a first-rights story. Then you don't have to wait for the publisher to publish the story first, as you would if he bought first rights. However, most publishers want first rights if the story is significant and has a national audience. I have been able to negotiate one-time rights stories only in regional publications, and then only with the guarantee of exclusivity in each publication's circulation area.

Tish,

Thanks for the direct advice. I am finally learning about all of this, and your information helped. Hopefully, you will read the next post in this thread.

Lisa

[BooRadley65]

Okay,

Received the payment for the job, as my refusal to respond to his excuses as to why the check wasn't in my mailbox after thirty days, sort of made him somewhat anxious.

It turns out he just didn't bother to send my invoice to Accounting, upon original receipt of my invoice. He apologized, etc. His contract specifically states that I will be paid 30 days after receipt of invoice.

So, then I get a voicemail from him, as he told Accounting to cut a check for me. This is so embarrassing for me, somewhat, to even admit this, but I hope what I've dealt with will truly help another new writer.

The original contract I agreed to with this editor was $300 for 1500 words. At that time, I was only working for one other trade publication and averaging a little lower than that for print articles.
As well, because I am not an expert in accounts payable processes, I thought this would be a way to break into another genre of business reporting.

As you can read, previously in this thread—though, I did delete my initial post—the contract was really shady, but I was not attentive enough to each detail. I also didn't understand the concept of writing for the Internet, and the concept of first rights, one-time rights, etc. The contract was very pro company, obviously, and basically it said that they owned my work and could reprint it forever and I only get paid once and that's it.

Plus, they could decide to put a byline on the story or not. Now I realize that I own my work and that I can negotiate for first or one-time rights, as well as a byline.

I didn't know this going into this project. As well, I didn't know it would take me 35 plus hours of research and writing to get it done.

As you can read through the thread, he added "case studies" to the article, but told me that he felt I could still make it with a 1500 article.

That wasn't the case. The first version totaled over 3000 words. I thought I would take my lumps and just move on, but suddenly this version wasn't what he wanted. It was what he wanted when I met with him and I took copious notes, but suddenly it's not what he wanted. Okay.

Given that I was not an expert in this subject, and given that I was pretty green, I re-wrote the article, adding a case study that he wanted, without re-negotiating. The whole article ended up being 5,000 words.

As you can see in my previous ramblings on this subject, I just wanted this over with and to move on.

He liked the second version and I sent my invoice. It took him weeks to even post the article, and when I saw it, it was basically the article I had written with a few minor edits. And I mean a few. The case studies had no edits at all.

One of the contacts I interviewed for the story wanted to see a copy of the story. Once he got it, he said it was well written and he liked it. He wanted to find out about linking it to his Web site, and reprints. I passed that onto the editor, in the same email where I inquire about payment.

Okay, editor is embarrassed about not having my check to me on time, so he then tells me to send him another invoice, with "Part 2" on it, and he decides to add another $300 dollars to my payment for this work.

He felt very benevolent doing this, and I certainly wouldn't turn it down, but once I found out the going rate for white papers, this was just a drop in the bucket.

I sent the invoice and that was that.
At the end of last week, he emails about another assignment—a news article—and he tells me to call him immediately. I send back an email letting him know that I am changing my rates for all of my writing.

I quote my rates for technical writing, white paper (I included an hourly rate and a per project flat rate, with re-write charges), and news/feature writing. I researched the going rates, as well as the rates in my market. The prices were all fair, without lowballing myself in the process.

I quoted .50 cents per word for news or feature articles.

I had another deadline I was working on at the end of last week, and I wasn't going to call him. So, he frantically calls me on Friday afternoon, telling me to call him Monday morning.

I call him, this morning, and he tells me all about this article, then asks if I can get it to him by Friday. He then starts discussing my email with my new rates.

Here's the conversation:

Smarmy editor: Um, instead of .50 cents per word, how about.45 cents per word?

Me: No. I think I stated my new rates, and I'd like to stick to them. I don't see the big problem between 45 and 50 cents, frankly, but these are the rates I need to stick with.

Smarmy editor: Well, we usually pay our consultants about 45 cents per word.

Me: Oh, well I wish I had known that before I signed the contract for the white paper. (Laughing) You didn't tell me that!

Smarmy editor: (nervous laughter) Well, um…ha ha…

Me: I really need to stand firm on my rates. I've done some research and there are some publications that are paying writers up to a dollar per word, but for my level of experience, I feel 50 cents per word is a fair rate.

Smarmy editor: Well, actually, not that the paper you wrote wasn't good. It was good, but I really had to do a lot of re-editing on it. There was a lot of work that had to be done to the paper.

Me: Really? I saw the finished version on the Web site and I didn't see many edits at all. It looks like the exact article that I wrote.

Smarmy editor: (interrupting and talking louder than me) WELL there was a LOT of work that had to be done on it….and I paid you extra for it…because, because, well you didn't ask for enough on this project. You didn't ask for enough.

Me: The price was not dictated by me. You dictated it, and based on what you wanted originally, I thought it was fair given my experience level. I appreciate the extra money that you offered, but if you wanted an AP consultant to write the paper, I believe you would have had to pay them up to $2000 or more for a 5000 word white paper, or at least $75 per hour. Also, I had no byline on the article and you own all of the rights. And when someone wants a reprint, you get the royalties from my work. I signed that contract, so therefore, I was honoring that contract, period. If I signed it, then I have to abide by that.

Smarmy editor: <nicer tone> And I appreciate that. Anyway, the article I want you to write is about [he talks about the subject matter] and I have background information for you, and a contact. Do you think you can write it by Friday?

Me: Do you think you can pay 50 cents per word and give me a byline?

Smarmy editor: Yes.

Me: Okay, send the information to me and I will take a look at it.

I remained calm, until I got off of the phone with him. Then, I was so insulted by him trying to insinuate that he had to do major re-writes on my article, I had to prove to myself he was full of crap.

I printed out the final version I sent to him, versus the version up on the Web site.

Out of 5000 plus words, he had 24 edits. These were sometimes one word edits, or he'd add something to what I had written, or he would re-word a sentence for style, strike a word, etc. One edit he made was incorrect, according to AP style.

Nothing on the case studies. They were untouched.

Another editor, from a good paying publication I work with, emailed me to tell my deadline was pushed up to this Friday, instead of next Tuesday. It's a huge article.

So, I emailed smarmy editor and told him I could not take on the assignment, since I have another huge deadline this Friday.

I resisted really telling him off. Instead, I have created my own contract, based on my research, and based on some boiler plate examples I have found. If he asks me to work for him, again, I don't think he's going to like the new terms, and that's fine with me.

For those who read this far, I thank you. This has been a stinging learning experience for me, but I'm no longer going to accept lowball offers for my writing, even if it means I have to work at Baskin Robbins part time to make my bills.

Thanks,
Lisa

[Bamponang]

Lisa

Sounds like you stood up for yourself, and still got the business.

[awatkins]

Woohoo! You remained calm, you stated facts, and you stood up for yourself. Good going! Thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully this will inspire others who find themselves in similar situations. :)